N reg craft to the UK?

[syf277]

Hi,

I have tried doing a search and sieved through the results (this forum and others) with no answer to my question so iam posting this as a last resort,

I am seriously considering doing my JAA PPL in america (OBA i think most likely), however the only depressing part is the availability of aircraft when i get back here.

An idea struck me earlier, why not buy an aircraft from america (checked on ebay they are much cheaper) then, well fly it over here hopping across the islands in the north or get it shipped? anyway you guys got any word of wisdom which can rip my idea to shreads?

iam sure if it was feasable someone would have been doing it by now right?

thanks guys.
p.s any thoughts on the flight school i think im going to end up in OBA? (lots to read on this in the forum though)

[Henry Hallam]

It is possible but:
1. It is not completely straightforward to keep an aircraft on the N register in the UK and there are some hidden costs for maintenance and paperwork.
2. You would need an awful lot of experience before ferrying the aircraft across the Atlantic, much more sensible to hire a ferry pilot to do the job. Some may allow you to come as passenger.

[mm_flynn]

syf277,

Your question seems to be about the poor state of for hire aircraft in the UK. A comment I would agree with. Hire aircraft are fine for a local bimble but for going anywhere on a schedule are terrible. However, there are plenty of group aircraft around the UK. As a freshly minted PPL you should probably join a group, build some time and experience and decide what type of flying you want to do. Maybe try out a couple of aircraft and decide on what you want to achieve with flying and how much you want to spend.

Once you have decided your path - then, if the machine you are looking at is £100k + I would definitely look at the US market as well as the European. There is a much much bigger choice in the US and with the current exchange rate some deals to be had. However, there are considerable ferry costs and re-registration costs (or trust costs and some longer term risks if you keep it N)

[bar shaker]

Why not fly your N reg on an FAA licence and have a workable instrument rating available to you?

[IO540]

With the exception of rather unusual airframe/equipment certification issues, there is little point in an N-reg unless you have an FAA PPL/IR at least.

I own an N-reg and have an FAA PPL/IR (soon hopefully a CPL/IR) as well as all the old UK stuff (and used to be on G-reg) so I know a bit about this.

Whether to buy or join a syndicate (post PPL) depends on one's budget and how well identified is the mission capability requirement.

If you learnt to fly to seriously go places (abroad etc) then getting a PPL & IR and purchasing a decent IFR tourer right away is a very good strategy. All the hours spent banging about in spamcans is wasted if your objective is beyond that. Currency on type is just about everything in this game and the sooner you start accumulating experience on what you really wanted the better.

[scooter boy]

"Why not fly your N reg on an FAA licence and have a workable instrument rating available to you?"

Quite so. the FAA/IR is far more accessible than the European equivalent. This may change at some point but for now this is fact. Most PPL/IR operators in Europe have taken the FAA route and fly airways in N-reg aircraft because of the inaccessibility of the european equivalent.

Don't let worries about cost or paperwork put you off. Even with the small additional extras it is still easier and less bureaucratic to operate N-reg in Europe.
Annual trust fee for an N-reg £300 or so.
Ferry fees including overheads for my Mooney in 2005 $11,000 (we did not require long range ferry tank installation, the Monroy LR tanks are more than ample for Transport Canada's requirements).

Go for it and enjoy yourself!

SB

[syf277]

Hi,
Thank guys, you have all been extremely helpfull. As for the licience i think i will go for the FAA PPL and get my PPL/IR next year. By then i will have some hours under my belt and a bit of eperience to be able to bring over an N-Reg. I do not intend to get it G registered, keep it N reg, by my calculations i will have to pay ~£40-80,000 in extra fees on an N reg in the UK since the price of aircraft here is getting beyond a joke now (compared to the US market).

I hope this makes things clearer guys.
once again thanks, you guys have been awsome! i will report back about the flight school i choose in the end.

[syf277]

SoCall App, I fully intend to commence the bookwork far far in advance, i was actually just going to stick with the CAA registered school, being british run etc i thought it would be a piece of mind more than anything else, but can anyone recommend a good FAA school to get my FAA PPL? are the prices generally cheaper than JAA PPLs?

I only have 8 weeks so i intend to spend all of it flying, the sooner i get my ppl the sooner i can move on to hour building or perhaps multi engine rating, any thoughts on this timescale/plan?


p.s one thing i forgot to ask anyone know what kind or the frequency of checks there are for the FAA PPL? and is there an examiner in the UK anywhere the someone knows of?

cheers.

[S-Works]

At this stage in the game with the CAA/JAA hand over to EASA I would strongly advise anyone against going the pure FAA route. All those who are on the FAA wagon now will tell you all about how politics with the Americans will prevent any major change for the future. The fact is that EASA want oversight of ALL aircraft in Europe and what is seen time after time is the Europeans seem to get what they want. Burying your head in the sand will not prevent this. My feeeling is that the small FAA aircraft will be forced out of being permanently based in Europe in the future.

If you are going to the USA for a license and really want an FAA one then do BOTH the FAA and JAA test.

The European IR changes are very close now with the report agreed at yesterdays meeting and due for submission to the head of PLD in 2 weeks. So the JAA IR will be more accessible pretty soon, certainly within the time-scales achievable by a new PPL.

[scooter boy]

"My feeeling is that the small FAA aircraft will be forced out of being permanently based in Europe in the future."

Your feeling or your desire Bose?

SB

[172driver]

BOSE, I've been following your comments re the new EASA PPL/IR on various threads for a while with great interest. Can you elaborate a bit on two things:

1) the timeframe of implementation ?

2) conversion from FAA IR to the new EASA IR (PPL in both cases) or vice-versa?

Reason for question 2 is I have standalone FAA and JAA licenses and would like to add IR to both.

In any case - keep up the good work :D

[IO540]

I don't particularly disagree with bose-x - however -

The FAA IR is a reasonable stepping stone to the JAA IR, should one be forced to the do the JAA IR one day.

This is because it sidesteps all the flight training requirements (except in the UK, where the CAA requires 15 hrs min) and in the UK it sidesteps the mandatory school attendance; you "just" sit the exams. I have references for this, if anybody wants them, email me.

I would still do the FAA IR today - with the FAA CPL also because that makes you a "professional pilot" and in the grand scheme of going to the USA for the PPL/IR it isn't much extra work.

Until last December an FAA CPL/ATPL with the FAA Class 1 medical also got you into the JAA Class 1 medical stream using the renewal privileges, but the CAA medical dept pulled that concession within weeks of it being mentioned here on pprune...

Make sure the N-reg plane doesn't have anything on it that clearly precludes it going on G-reg.

Then you have immediate worldwide IFR privileges and these will last as long as EASA is unable to get a grip on one of its hottest political potatoes. Certainly good for years. Then there will be other options, all nicely ICAO compliant, which I won't talk about here ;)

This aviation game is a big paper chase. You chase for the PPL to get VFR privileges, and then you need a matching aircraft reg. You chase for the IR to get IFR privileges, and then you need a matching aircraft reg. You chase after medicals, you name it.... it never ends. Then you chase after paperwork for this or that panel mounted GPS, and it has to be right for the aircraft reg. The FAA route is a perfectly reasonable route through this mess and far more straightforward than JAA/EASA. That's why most IR pilots have gone FAA - these are high-budget highly motivated people and they have worked it out.

Bose-x - what is the timetable for JAA ratification of such a CAA proposal, and how is it affected by EASA taking over FCL in 2008?

[mm_flynn]

I would have thought that if Bose-X and Co achieve the goal of a reasonable European IR then the population of 'small' N-reg aircraft will naturally decline pretty quickly. If EASA go for a lighter touch on airframe regulation and recognise US STCs that will further accelerate the move back to European registration.

On the other hand, where we are now, any move to kick N-reg out will be bitterly resisted probably with a positive alliance between N-Reg IR operators and the business aircraft guys who have much bigger issues that keep them N-reg (or other offshore).

[S-Works]

"My feeeling is that the small FAA aircraft will be forced out of being permanently based in Europe in the future."

Your feeling or your desire Bose?

SB

Thats a bit harsh. Considering my involvement with the working groups is to keep GA alive regardless of the "ethnicity" I find that insinuation offensive.

When you walk the corridors of power often enough you get a feeling of what is going on and the feeling I get is this is being pushed for behind closed doors. It was the reason I suspect the DofT let it go so easily. Just because we are in bed with the Americans on international issues does not override the fact that we have signed a huge chunk of our lives over to Europe and Europe do not want non European aircraft of which they have no oversight (read revenue stream...).

I just think that those encouraging others to go the "easy" American route are doing mostly out of trying to help and possibly partly out of a little self interest and in the long time could leave people in a difficult position. I am trying to give balance and if you read my comment my suggestion is to get both. In the words if IO540 "you never know when you may need grandfather rights".

I have nothing against foreign aircraft of any type being here, the more the merrier. As the holder of a few foreign licenses, including FAA, Canada, SA etc. I am not chained to the JAA/EASA system and was one of the reasons why I was considered a suitable rep for GA.

[IO540]

When you walk the corridors of power often enough you get a feeling of what is going on

That's very true; however it's also true that in any large regulatory organisation 100% of the people, right down to the tea ladies, will have a very firm opinion on everything under the sun, and will claim to have all kinds of connections, yet only about 1% of them are actual policymakers.

If you speak to a lot of ATCOs at West Drayton you come out convinced that the CAA will ban all single pilot jets, and that private IFR (non-ATPL) flying is finished. Is this likely? Not at all.

If you speak to CAA/Dft people privately you get the impression that they will kick out N-reg planes "this year". I was told this absolutely by these people, on the phone, in 2004/2005. Did it happen? No. In fact, it appears that there was never the slightest chance of it happening. Too many people with N-reg jets knowing too many people in the corridors of power (and I don't mean in the DfT or the CAA) and that's before you get onto top-level political issues. Very little information has ever come out on what really happened (which itself is telling) but the indications are that the subject is more sensitive than anybody here would believe.

That said, I do think that foreign reg ops in Europe will probably end one day. But, to achieve this, EASA will have to offer a substantial carrot:

- swap of a FAA IR for an EASA IR (there could be some devil in the detail, and an FAA PPL/IR may not get full EASA IR privileges, well not perhaps just like that)

- acceptance of FAA Type Certificates, STCs and 337s (politically this is hard to swallow in Europe, but one can work out a system which is de facto equivalent while avoiding the dreaded 3-letter word ("FAA"). This must be retrospective otherwise a few thousand planes would need to be modified or exported out of EASA-land.

- acceptance of ICAO medical requirements, not gold plated, for private flight

Everything will end one day. One day we will all be dead. But before that, our local airfield will close to developers; that will stop far more people flying than EASA. Before that, we will lose our hangar spaces; that will stop a lot of people operating half decent planes....

The name of the game is to keep one step ahead and keep all the options open, and that is what the decision is about.

[scooter boy]

Bose, please accept my apologies if you found my question offensive, perhaps I misinterpreted the recent postings you have made on this issue.

Let me start by stating that I wholeheartedly applaud your participation in attempting to improve the current situation of European IR attainability. I would however have grave reservations about this development being used as leverage to oust N-reg IFR operators permanently based in Europe - i:e "convert to our rating or get out."

There is a massive industry involved in N-reg ops within Europe which has grown out of the perceived unattainability of a European IR. Unless full grandfather rights are forthcoming for pilots and aircraft (highly unlikely and very difficult to impose) I predict that there will be a war on over any sudden moratorium on N-reg IFR ops.

I would also suspect that those who truly hold the power are sensitive to the repercussions that this would create and would rather see a gradual reduction in N-reg IFR operators as the EU equivalent becomes more attainable rather than an immediate moratorium.

I am sure I am not alone in being extremely concerned at the possibility of the status quo being rocked. Huge vested interests are at stake here.

I hope that the politicians are smart enough to phase things in slowly and offer a carrot rather than try to use a stick.

SB

[IO540]

I hope that the politicians are smart enough to phase things in slowly and offer a carrot rather than try to use a stick

It's my view that the above is the most likely long term scenario. EASA is on the record saying as much, but predictably they are getting a lot of opposition from the opposite vested interests.

However, it may suprise people just how far the regulators lower down can go, winding everybody up in the process, before somebody who can see the wider picture gets up and says "actually, chaps, no, we can't do this". Look at that recent DfT business :ugh:

Let's face it, the most obvious solution is to just sod it and accept FAA licensing and certification and ICAO medicals whole, and then few people will bother to operate N-reg planes in Europe. Everybody can see this, so what's the hold-up? Job protection / careers / reputations.

[S-Works]

IO the answer is very simple and therefore I assume your question was indeed rhetorical....

POLITICS....... Will ensure that the FAA is not accepted on equal terms.

There is nothing we can do about this but there is significant effort in the unelected bureaucrats of Europe to have it there way.

Those who think the politics that the UK shares with the US will protect us from the fact that we have signed our rights away to Europe are deluded. We have a very tricky situation where the US and the UK have a special relationship and this we think this will save our UK operators and in fact could possibly. The rest of Europe does not share that relationship and we have just signed over our rights to them. Sure the UK can issue an exemption for UK airspace and probably will. But an Island becomes a small place in a high performance tourer....

I think that the big boys on the N with political clout will end up down some sort of AOC route with EASA oversight. The little boys will of course be given the option to join the AOC club.

IO540, you can debunk the listening watch as much as you like, but the fact is these comments come from the people responsible for making it happen and it may be coffee break conversations now but there is no smoke without fire...

All I ams saying is that anyone looking at the N reg (or any other foreign reg) at the moment consider the future very carefully.

[IO540]

consider the future very carefully

Agreed, and that's what I said too.

Your worldwide flying rights will always be protected by ICAO. The worst that UK can do to you is take away your long term UK parking rights.

Remember that's what the DfT kicking-out proposal was 100% about: long term UK parking rights. Similarly, all that EASA can do is ban long term N-reg parking in EASA-land.

They can't take away your FAA license/rating privileges. Only the FAA can do that. An ICAO state can in theory ban its citizens exercising foreign license privileges in its airspace, but that's it. And that's not been done yet, to my knowledge - would have certain side effects...

They can't come along and smash up your N-reg plane, or smash up the GPS in it which is not EASA certified.

If EASA did ban long term parking, the N-reg owner would have to examine his options and act accordingly. That's OK, because you have kept your options open - haven't you?? :)

[S-Works]

Thats not exactly what we were talking about...... Nobody said you would lose any rights. Just not be able to exercise them where you wanted!!

[syf277]

very interesting conversation, i have been following my thread very carefully. I must admit, preventing N reg aircraft sounds like EASA will be in one way monopolising the aircraft market, surely against some fair competition rules?

And anyway wouldnt the Americans resist European pressure, if the n reg aircraft is sold off quickly which is what i suspect will happen, the american market will be flooded with craft from europe. surely the americans will try to protect their own interests?

Seems like the europeans are taking drastic measures especially in the face of the global village, surely we need a more unified system as the world becomes our backyard!
Bose do you have any timescale for all these changes to happen or not happen by? or is this all simply a matter of feelings and hearsay? (no offence intended incase u have taken it wrongly).

cheers

[S-Works]

No, it's feeling and hearsay. But it's hearsay from a considerable number of regulatory sources which indicates to me that they are talking to each other rather than just canteen opinion.

I agree that in the British view the politics with the Americans will be difficult, but then we are just one part of the European "state". Don't underestimate the level of hostility in Europe towards the USA. Our special relationship will count for nothing globally.

I don't think we will see a dumping of N reg aircraft onto the market, people flying will not stop just because they can't do it on the N reg they will just have to move onto EASA.

But like I said it's just my opinion!

[IO540]

I would agree that wholesale dumping is unlikely. Most people who fly regularly are too committed.

In the absolute worst case scenario (foreign reg planes getting banned from parking in EU after a stay of say 90 days - as the UK DfT proposed in 2005) you would have

- anybody who can go on G, at a cost of less than about £10k, would go on G
- anybody who cannot will sell to non-EASA regions, of which there are several in near Europe, or export to the USA, or (in the case of sub-£30k value) scrap it

The pilots will lose their IFR privileges. I am certain 90% would not do the JAA IR, unless there is a massive cut in the ground school, acceptance of FAA IR to some degree, and a removal of the extra medical requirements. They would just renew their IMC Rating for the UK, and elsewhere they would fly "VFR" - much as many > 2000kg piston twin owners do already.

But as I said, piston GA is not the issue here. The decision will be made according to other factors.

Regards hostility to the USA, nobody in the EU is more hostile to the US than the French, yet they scrapped their proposal to kick out N-reg so fast they hardly had time to dig up a cover story.

The wider effect would be on the industry. If you can't go "legit IFR" then there is no point in flying an IFR tourer. You may as well buy an IMC-equipped LSA and enjoy the much lower operating cost. Sales of Cirrus etc in Europe would be all but dead adn the bottom would drop out of the IFR 4-seater market - even more than it already has. The # of CAA/JAA IR holders (in the private arena) would not help; it is tiny and the demographics don't help either: most of them did their IR many years ago (using one of the shortcut routes which used to exist) and thus are not "spring chickens" and most of them will not be flying 10-20 years from now.

The UK flying schools would love to kick out N-reg planes because they naively think that suddenly everybody will sign up for 50hrs of IR training and ground school. But most FAA IR operators don't have the time for that stuff.

[syf277]

well thanks guys boi u are thorough! highly appreciated, iam a happy chappie now.