Rooivalk

[Mac the Knife]

As a matter of interest from a non-helicopter pilot (but a South African taxpayer!), what exactly was wrong with the Rooivalk?

http://www.militarypictures.info/d/395-2/Rooivalk.jpg

It looked very impressive in display and the specs/ads made it sound like quite an advanced machine?

"Struggling arms maker Denel has been given an R8bn vehicle contract lifeline by Armscor. This comes hard on the heels of its failure to win a bid to supply Turkey with Rooivalk helicopters.

Denel has now decided that the Rooivalk, on whose development the government spent R8bn, is not commercially viable and it will not spend any new money on the helicopters.

Armscor and the defence department will now have to decide whether to subsidise the maintenance of Denel’s Rooivalk capability so that it can continue servicing the 12 helicopters bought by the South African Air Force over their 25-year lifespan.

The other option would be for the air force to mothball the helicopters and for the costs to be written off entirely."

Thanks for any insights

Mac

[BarryW]

The rooivalk was a competitive attack helicopter, but its technology has not been field proven, even in South Africa. There is also minimal field support for this helo.

The apache has been upgraded in the recent years and has an extensive track record spanning several wars, the rooivalk has not.

The rooivalk has been used by other countries, e.g UK, as a bargaining tool to get apaches from the us at a better deal.

My 2 cents worth

[Genghis the Engineer]

What's wrong with it?

Basically, it's not an Apache - not quite as capable, lacking the huge product support base, and most critically of all lacking the support of the US Government behind it.

Essentially, market forces: by all competent accounts, the helicopter itself is superb.

G

[NickLappos]

Old dog with no new tricks.

[unstable load]

Ghengis,

If by market forces you mean that the USA used their muscle to smother it then you get my vote.

I believe it is an ideal "bush" war machine. It uses proven technology and does not need a plethora of support to keep it in the air, thus making it perfect for smaller countries who can't afford the "new dog with the new tricks" (sorry, Nick)

[RVDT]

Reality - why buy a Super Puma that somebody has chopped?

No real performance gains and can't carry pax - easier option would have been to arm a 332.

The political history would also point to the days when nobody would sell anything to SA except maybe the grenouilles!

[Brilliant Stuff]

Is that what it is? A chopped Puma?

[farmpilot]

I thought the Apache used the South African designed gun sight system.......? It can't be that old with no tricks can it?

[rjsquirrel]

Old Puma rotors that nobody will buy in the civil world, superceeded by the 225 and NH-90 even in the EC biased world, obsolete in the military world. Makes maintenance a big deal, and makes its ballistic survivability a real problem for those who have to fly it against someone with bullets.

Weapons/sensors/cockpit = behind the most modern, or at lease equal in most ways.

unstable load, It is convenient to wrap yourself in the comfort of mythological international intrigue, but the Apache, Tiger and the big Russian machines leave the Rooivalk in 4th place. It is a "capable" machine in a world where greatness is required to break into the market.

Anyone who wants to match a Rooivalk against an Mi-28 or Apache has a strong death wish.

farmpilot - you have GOT to be kidding!

[Overt Auk]

Many years ago, there was another Rooivalk. A one-off F/W aerobatic machine. ISTR that it had 'interesting' design features, like using wooden pegs instead of pulleys for control cables but it's crowning glory was the propeller. This was a VP unit with a facility for going into beta range on vertical descents, to give the pilot lots of time for clever rolls. Only problem was, it was powered by the engine oil system and as soon as the aircraft went inverted and the sump ran out of oil it went into full beta instantly stopping the aircraft. Made inverted low passes a lot more spectacular than was intended.

OA

[996]

The fundamental problem with the aircraft is simply that it is not configured for a decent fire and forget missile system and target acquisition is reliant on the chin turret.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The fundamental problem with the aircraft is simply that it is not configured for a decent fire and forget missile system and target acquisition is reliant on the chin turret.

Possibly because such things tend these days to rely upon American technology, which they wouldn't export?

G

[rjtjrt]

Whilst on the subject, it seems to me as an outside obsrever that modern attack helicopters are very vulnerable places to work on a batlefield.
My reasoning is the apparent reluctance of US to deploy Apache's to Balkans. If I recall after a long time of talk of soon deploying they never did get deployed. I assumed that up against a well equiped opposition (Serbia had modern anti air missiles, etc) it was a daunting prospect to send them and the Army brass decided against. Is this so?
This is not meant to be in any way anti or pro any service. It just seems to me they are a loverly weapon to have on your side so lond as you don't have to fly them against a first world opposition. Even in Iraq I got the impression more than expected fell to medium and large calibre automatic weopons in unsophisticated hands.

[[email protected]]

rjtjrt - I believe the problem with the Balkans environment is the inability to correctly identify a target as enemy before engaging it - the apache is designed to do this out to 8kms which is great in a desert environment or where there are clearly defined lines of battle. The terrain and nature of the threat are different in the Balkans and the need to get close puts the aircraft at increased threat and reduces the stand-off capability. I am sure it can be worked round with identification and laser designation by other assets (ground or air).

[Shawn Coyle]

If I can add a different view as to why the Rooivalk is not taken seriously. In the early 90's the British were intent on buying an attack helicopter, and as the date was drawing near for bids to be in, the newly acceptable South Africans (having just abandoned apartheid) asked to be allowed to bid. They got an extension to the date for submission.
I was working with a team that was trying to convince the South Africans that they need UK-based help to make sure they understood the politics and technical things that needed to be answered for the proposal. They ignored the advice and submitted a bid prepared completely on their own. My understanding was that their proposal was very, very poorly received as it was so bad.
I was among the first journalists to fly the Rooivalk, before it got it's avionics and systems - it was a very nice handling airframe. The systems I was shown seemed to be pretty capable at the time (early 90s) and had some good thinking and design. But the whole process of selling helicopters is based on a lot more than just performance and price - the customer has to be at least familiar with the product - and how many exchange visits to South Africa for people to see the machine have their been?

[KiloDeltaYankee]

Unfortunately there is a huge amount of politics involved in a defence procurement...

The Turkish Air Force made it very clear that the Rooivalk beat the Mangusta, SuperCobra and Tiger. (Apache never considered on cost grounds)

The Mangusta version that got selected by the politicians only exists on paper...a souped up version that will only be available in 5 years time! :ugh:

Why? Turkey is bending over backwards to gain support for it's campaign to join the EU. :=

In the mean time they will "lease" old Apache's....
KDY




I can confirm that Farmpilot is correct. The helmet mounted gun sight system in the Apache was developed in South Africa and licenced to the US.

[farmpilot]

Thanks KDY

I knew I heard that in the bar somewhere but couldn't find reference to it on the net.......