Scared every time I go up

[Al Smith]

Hi, I used to have fear everytime I went flying, a sort of mild insecurity that was not easily definable. Now after reading this forum I am begining to think that it would be totally unwise ever to fly in a helicopter/ light aircraft again. This is confirmed by the videos of "kids" doing aerobatics in SFH a/c on YouTube, I do not want to end up losing a blade, tail, or wing because of another persons attempts to impress.

[S-Works]

Yeah and me every hour for the last 2000 odd hours.......

Don't be put off, most people are sane and careful. There will always be the odd idiot but then look at them on cars and bikes!

[dublinpilot]

Al,

I'm not sure what the point of your post is. If you want us to convince you that flying is safe, that would not be a good idea.

Flying is as safe as you make it. If you manage the risks properly you can make it reasonably safe, but like everything in life, you can never make it perfectly safe.

If you don't manage the risks, then you obviously increase them to yourself and others.

For us to try and convince you it is safe would be wrong, because we have no idea how you manage the risks to yourself.

It's in your own hands, so you'll have to make your own decisions.

The only two things I'd say is to make sure you understand the risk factors and manage them properly (ask for help, if you're not happy that you fully appreciate the bits likely to go wrong), and secondly if your still not comfortable, then why continue. Flying is expensive, and it has a certain amount of risk that you can't get rid of. If you're not enjoying it, then perhaps it's time to give up?

dp

[slim_slag]

I think he is worried about bits falling off the plane because somebody before him has bent something. A reasonable fear I suppose, but not one borne out by the numbers.

I cannot get on the NTSB web site right now but the figures are out there to look at. Mechanical failure (engine or airframe) causing accidents or fatalities are very uncommon. Pilot error causing accidents are as common as the pilot wants to make them. From memory, I think the numbers show you need to fly several tens of thousands of hours before you might reasonalby expect to have an accident due to mechanical failure. Of course it could come next hour, that's the nature of these statistics, but it's not at all likely. Talk to a mechanic and instructor to find out what you can do to reduce the likelyhood of a mechanical failure being fatal, it really is mostly in the pilot's hands.

[gpn01]

"I used to have fear everytime I went flying, a sort of mild insecurity that was not easily definable. "
....The risk hasn't changed, just your recognition and awareness.
In some ways that now makes things safer for you because you're more likely to mitigate against these, now known, known risks - e.g. looking out more and doing thorough pre-flight checks.

[gcolyer]

If I havent flown for a while I am a little nervous when I next go up. other than that I find a thorough preparation and planning sets my mind at ease. Doing everything as strictly as you can should help limit risks which hopefully puts your mind at rest (or at least a bit)

Having said that and also in contradiction to the statistics that slim_slag mentions I have had the following happen to me:

31 hours: total electrical failure (C150)
47 hours engine failure (PA28)
49 hours instrument failure (C172)
73 hours flap failure on short finals (PA32)
81 hours wobbly prop failure resulting in prop fully feathering (PA32)

Touch wood nothing else worth mentioning since. But all that did occur within 6 month period. The engine failure and wobbly prop failure are by far the worst two. Having experienced them and carried out emergency procedures without any nasties has given me a great deal of confidence (although that might not be a good thing).

[slim_slag]

Your figures do not contradict what I said at all. How many accidents have you had?

[sternone]

I think most of us have a little fear flying up there, in the beginning all i was thinking that the engine on top was going to stop running, after some hours of training i did not had time to think about that..

i feel confident in knowing what to do in case of emergency.. the reason that BRS exists is because of people like you having fears of mid air collisions etc..

[gcolyer]

Very true Slim, I have not actually had an accident. What I meant was


I think the numbers show you need to fly several tens of thousands of hours before you might reasonalby expect to have an accident due to mechanical failure


All the failures I have had could quiet easily have casued an accident, I had not even had 100 hours at that point let alone several tens of thousands. And I certainly never expect to have these failures anyway :bored:

I did not mean to seem argumentative.

[Slopey]

A little bit of fear keeps your checks and your performance in order, complacency kills - I personally prefer a little bit of trepidiation because it ensures that I check everything I should have on the walk round/ run-up checks etc.

Once I'm satisfied it's ok, the trepdiation dissipates (to a large extent), but it's that same naggling feeling that ensures that I'm keeping an eye out for an emergency landing site while bimbling along, and that I'm doing my fredas and that I know where I am, which ultimately, makes my flying more professional and safer :)

[gcolyer]

Talking about looking for places to land during and emergency...I was bimbling along last saturday from Southend on Sea -> Stapleford -> Elestree -> deham...you get the idea for the route and I was thinking if I lost my engine where would I go.... the answer is you are pretty stuffed unless you are at a decent alltitude. The best option i thought would be to turn northerly and head for the fields on the outskirts of london. However at 2000 feet I still don't think I would have made it. And I am not sure trying to stuff the plane in to some park in London is a great idea.

[slim_slag]

Dom't think you were arguing gcolyer, hope I don't come over the same, this bulletin board medium is not the best for showing emotion. When I can get to the NTSB statistics I will post them, maybe that will make more sense.

[gasax]

Well if you're frightened someone has over stressed the plane - don't fly.

But if you look at the number of structural failures you'll see its incredibly small and in no way represents some of the alarmist cr*p that gets typed on these fora.

Floating things in the cockpit is pretty harmless and recovering from some poor executed 'death dive' is pretty easy. Must be I do it every year for my permit renewal VNE test flight....

Of course you could always buy your own aircraft and forget the fear!

[FLCH]

Having said that and also in contradiction to the statistics that slim_slag mentions I have had the following happen to me:
31 hours: total electrical failure (C150)
47 hours engine failure (PA28)
49 hours instrument failure (C172)
73 hours flap failure on short finals (PA32)
81 hours wobbly prop failure resulting in prop fully feathering (PA32)

Wow ! that's a lot to have happen to you in such a short time, I'm genuinely thankful in about 15,000 hours of flying I've had one belly landing in a Bonanza and one engine failure in a 727...remind me not to complain next time !!

[Fuji Abound]

Hi, I used to have fear everytime I went flying, a sort of mild insecurity that was not easily definable.

I think you need to identify why.

Leaving aside that the fear may have been compounded by the thought of bits dropping off, there are clearly other reasons for the mild insecurity.

Often these come from a lack of appreciation of what can go wrong and what you can do about it. For example, many have a fear of engine failure. However, the more you perform PFLs the more confident you become that you will handle them well. The same is true of many of the "failures" that might occur.

As someone earlier commented, fortunately wings falling off are incredibly rare, and when they do, it is usually the result of your over stressing the airframe (the typical IMC spiral dive).

So console yourself wish the fact that if you are in practice, and avoid flying in poor weather or are trained to fly IMC, there should be few things in light aircraft that aren’t manageable.

If you look at the statistics, the biggest threats to life and limb are accidents that are connected with flight in instrument conditions.

Of course no one wants engine, electrical, vac or any other type of failure. You can weight the odds very heavily in your favour by being careful from who you rent, or by joining a group or owning your own aircraft, so you can be confident about the quality of maintenance and of the pilot operators. Unfortunately the standard of some flying school aircraft is poor. Combine this with the hard use they get and the temptation for them to carry defects and you should expect there to be a greater incident of minor failures.

[sternone]

Also this might sound very stupid, but my teacher has done 2 engine faillure landings, and 2 times he just landed and walked away without any injuries. One of these 2 was with a student pilot who is still flying...

This gives me great confidence that at least, in an emergency i have a good chance that this guy isn't gonna 'freak out' and flip...

do you have enough confidence in your teacher ??

[gcolyer]

FLCH
Tell me about it!!! it almost stopped me from flying at the 49 hour mark. it is not usual to get all 3 common types of failures in such a short period of time!!

Thankfully I have stuck it out, and I feel it has made me a more confident and possibly a better pilot (should i put my tin hat on).

I still get butterflies now and again about having another engine failure. I kind of deal with this by doing loads of PFL's. Typically I dedicate an hour a week to basic manouvers.

Slow flight
Stalls
Partial panel
Steep turns/evassive manouvers
PFL's (loads of them)

PFL's in the circuit are good especialy if you ask tower for a glide approach. That way you can play about with when you cut the power and really get to judge the aircrafts and your own abillity.

At the end of the day you need to check, check and re-check everything when preping for any flight and as long as you do that to the best of your ability you will be limiting the risks. And if in doubt don't fly or get an intsructor or another pliot that you trust to double check for you.

[rogcal]

Bit of a digression but after reading this by "gcolyer",

And I am not sure trying to stuff the plane in to some park in London is a great idea.

it reminded me of an incident some 25-30 years ago when someone nicked a plane from Biggin (I believe) and put it down with no damage in park with a lido near Stockwell?.

The "pilot" legged it and to my knowledge, was never caught.

Anyone remember this?

[gingernut]

I've always found a good dose of nerves is quite a healthy asset in the cockpit.

It becomes a problem when the old adrenaline starts to affect your physical and mental performance. This is probably the stage where you need some extra advice.

Watching air crashes on you - tube is probably best avoided.


There is a risk attached to flying, but I always reckon it's less risky than sat on the couch with 20 B+H watching reality TV.:)

[sternone]

they also say that most accidents with airplanes happens on ... the ground during taxi !

[tangovictor]

Talking about looking for places to land during and emergency...I was bimbling along last saturday from Southend on Sea -> Stapleford -> Elestree -> deham...you get the idea for the route and I was thinking if I lost my engine where would I go.... the answer is you are pretty stuffed unless you are at a decent alltitude. The best option i thought would be to turn northerly and head for the fields on the outskirts of london. However at 2000 feet I still don't think I would have made it. And I am not sure trying to stuff the plane in to some park in London is a great idea.

I thought, that's why there are so many golfing facilities around ? ideal places to land ( in an emergency ) I'm sure you would be made very welcome
;)

[blue up]

20 years.
8000 hrs.
Still scares me f4rtless on odd occasions.
3 engine failures.
One on the ground (PHEW!)
One south of St Catherines Point, I.O.W. (Where is Martyn Kay, ex Debonair?)
One in a 757 at 1000 feet.

Never had a real accident except for the car crash 50 yds from the AME's house on the way to my annual medical. 18 months on the sick.
My own 'personal' plane is built like a brick sh1dhouse and is much more sturdy than our Ford Mondeo. Plane crash likelihood x plane crash survivability is greater than car crash likelihood x car crash survivability.

On the way to work (6 miles) there are 4 separate bunches of flowers at 4 different places marking the deaths of 4 different people killed on the roads.
If you stop flying you should have stopped driving first.



Moral of the story? Have a healthy respect for the technology and pay attention to the pre-flight and the rules of the air. Live longer flying and live more happily.:ok:

[sternone]

talking about an extra reason to be in the air...

[Al Smith]

What I am saying is that there are a lot of idiots out there - I do not want to get into an aircraft that has been over stressed and gone over Vne. When I hire an aircraft I want it to be top notch.

[Comanche250]

Yeah people say never trust anyone in aviation but blimey you are taking that a little too far in my opinion. Agreed its not sensible taking an aircraft that has been overstressed for whatever reason, but you are never going to know that its, as you put it 'top notch', you have to put a certain amount of trust in other pilots and their conscience.

[Fuji Abound]

What I am saying


there are a lot of idiots out there


No, that is not what you were saying .. .. ..

and was not the question you asked.

I think you got the reply to the question we all thought you were asking.

The issues about the behaviour of a very few has been done to death on another thread and there doesnt seem to be much point starting that debate again if that is what you had in mind.

[sternone]

I do not want to get into an aircraft that has been over stressed and gone over Vne

Luckely for you, there is plenty of choice of new aircrafts available for you to buy. Make you choice!

[slim_slag]

....All the failures I have had could quiet easily have casued an accident....Yes, but yours were incidents, and one has to accept these come along reasonably frequently in the rental fleet. Training stops them becoming an accident, as does the fact that most incidents aren't going to kill you anyway unless you really mess it up - again pilot error.

Have found the reliability data for flying complex single engine piston aircraft now. It's on a NASA site at .. er, sorry new rules say I cannot provide the link :) You will all just have to trust me. The figures are based on the probability that the airframe and engine will succesfully complete a 700mile flight.

Airframe 99.940%
Engine 99.986%

Surprisingly to me anyway, at first glance the engine appears more reliable than the airframe, but I suspect it might not be a significant difference.

Looking at NTSB accident rates, and again you have to trust me on this, in 1997 accross the whole US, the accident rate due to airframe failure was given as approx 0.3 per 100,000 hours flown. The fatal accident rate due to airframe failure was given as approx 0.08 per 100,000 hours flown.

So now you have the figures, decide for yourself whether the risk of parts falling off is worth the reward.

Of course, people are scared of flying on airlines, and the same people also know it's the safest form of transport out there. So there is a psychological issue here which statistics will not fix.

[wsmempson]

I always have 'butterflies' before a flight, as I used to when I raced cars - I've always thought that flying light aircraft a far more effective remedy for constipation than senacot.

I only remember two races where I was completely calm and relaxed before a race (Donnington Park and Mallory Park) and on both occasions I had quite big accidents. Butterflies = a little adrenalin and that (in moderation) is a good thing.

If ever I get to the stage where I approach the a/c with no jitters and in a state of complete calm, I know from experience that I'm in for trouble....

[Al Smith]

When I hire an A/c from Fast down in Shoreham I always feel confident, thier machines are always in "top notch" condition.

[Comanche250]

So whats the smegging problem then????

[Al Smith]

they cost a lot of money !!!!!

[MikeJ]

Fuji,
You normally seem to have things buttoned up pretty well. But this statement from your post is completely wrong.

"If you look at the statistics, the biggest threats to life and limb are accidents that are connected with flight in instrument conditions."

The biggest factor in fatal accidents in UK and US is stall/spin in VMC from less than 500ft. A very small proportion of fatals is related to IMC, these being loss of control followed by death spiral, or CFIT. Virtually all midairs are in VMC, most in the ATZ, but are still a small proportion of fatals. Fatals, as 'slim shag' says, are rarely following engine/airframe problems, and are nearly always due to pilot error.

Back to the thread. A lot of good posts reflect that, like everything else in life, safety depends on YOU, not on the averages of others. 'gcollier' had an extraordinary rate of aircraft engine/airframe problems, but he's still alive! He must have been victim of a very slack maintenance regime from where he got the aircraft.
In 37 years, 1400hrs private flying, I have NEVER had an engine/airframe problem in flight, only avionics. But I have never flown an aircraft with more that 1000hrs TTSN. When I learned, the flight school had a fleet of new C150s, and thereafter I only flew my own aircraft. Even in my R22 for460hrs I never had a fault.

Perhaps more surprising to the 'establishment', is that for the last 16 years I have over 600hrs in a plastic home built hot-ship on permit, which gives me a comfortable 170KIAS cruise with a standard O-320 Warrior engine. Perhaps I get no failures because I can do the maintenance myself!

[scooter boy]

"'gcollier' had an extraordinary rate of aircraft engine/airframe problems, but he's still alive! He must have been victim of a very slack maintenance regime from where he got the aircraft.
In 37 years, 1400hrs private flying, I have NEVER had an engine/airframe problem in flight, only avionics. But I have never flown an aircraft with more that 1000hrs TTSN. When I learned, the flight school had a fleet of new C150s, and thereafter I only flew my own aircraft. Even in my R22 for460hrs I never had a fault.

Perhaps more surprising to the 'establishment', is that for the last 16 years I have over 600hrs in a plastic home built hot-ship on permit, which gives me a comfortable 170KIAS cruise with a standard O-320 Warrior engine. Perhaps I get no failures because I can do the maintenance myself!"

Gcolyer, I would be considering sabotage if my record of a/c problems was as rich a seam as yours!! Someone is clearly out to get you.:\

MikeJ I have 1500h TT F/W and Helicopter, no engine failures, a little rough running in a kitplane I used to own and maintained myself (clearly not as well as I should have!;)) but zilch else.

Age and mechanical condition of the aircraft is the single most important factor IMHO.

Basically if your aircraft resembles a car you wouldn't trust to not shake itself apart at 90mph in the fast lane of the M1 then don't fly it! Simple as ...

Oh how most UK flying schools would suffer if pilots refused to fly crappy old wreckage, they might even have to invest in some new aircraft, god forbid!

SB

[J.A.F.O.]

Back to the 'butterflies' and nerves part of this topic.

Think about the way you feel when you are mildly nervous.

Think about the way you feel when you are vaguely excited.

There isn't a difference, it's only what you choose to call it.

That sounds horribly Southern Californian, for which I apologise, but it's true - the physical sensations are pretty much the same.

So, you decide, are you excited or are you nervous?

[Al Smith]

only 100 hours, and I am very scared of flying. you guys do not make me feel any more secure.

[Saab Dastard]

Al, you have gone from mild insecurity to
very scared of flyingThis seems to result from reading this forum and fear of hiring an aircraft that is not top notchWell, it seems that the best things that you could do would be to a) stop reading this forum and b) get your own plane.

Then enjoy your flying.

Otherwise stop flying.

Sorted :ok:

SD

[sir.pratt]

only 100 hours, and I am very scared of flying. you guys do not make me feel any more secure.

lucky for us it's not out job to make you feel secure.

either:

buy a brand new plane and be the only one who flies it, or
fly a plane that can't be broken easily - like an extra 300 or something.

although they are always pushed really hard. maybe you should have hypnosis.......

[gcolyer]

All my failures bar 2 have been in different aircraft and from different organisations!

I guess some people have all the luck and others don't, I guess I am in the later catagory!

[slim_slag]

Perhaps you just notice them? Also, now I think of it, I have had these sort of thing happen but forgotten about them. Perhaps that explains things too. I think these small things are more common than people think, they just don't turn into major events (due to training and engineering).

[sternone]

fly a plane that can't be broken easily - like an extra 300 or something.


Wow i just checked their website, what a great machine that E500 looks like!!!

[Al Smith]

saab dastard,

I just want to fly in an a/c that isn't going to kill me.

[J.A.F.O.]

The aircraft won't kill you, Al - but you might kill the aircraft.

You've done 100 hours, you're scared of flying, give it up and buy some capital letters.

Your posts seem quite bizarre and don't really ring true to me; you are either a troll, not someone I'd want to share airspace with, or both.

All the good people above have told you that aircraft don't often just fall apart, they've all pointed out that it's your training and attitude that matter if the aircraft does let you down, they've also pointed out that nothing is 100% safe.

Get over it or give it up.

[Fuji Abound]

MikeJ

There have been a number of studies examining the causes of fatal accidents.

The results and conclusions vary depending on the country and how the information is interpreted. I suspect a significant problem to any quantitative analysis is identifying the primary cause. This is usefully demonstrated by the monthly analysis taken on by Flying when they examine a current NTSB report and go beyond their findings and speculate on the event(s) that precipitated the accident. For example, the NTSB may well concluded that the aircraft broke up on approach to X due to loss of control but this in itself does not identify the cause of the loss of control. The analysis are always invariably interesting reading.

In a study by the CAA there were 166 fatal accidents in the ten year period reviewed involving light aircraft and helicopters.

CFIT accounted for 20% and LOC in IMC 8%. Over 80% of the CFITs were in IMC. The other significant causes were LOC in VMC 20%, and low flying / aeros 19%. CFIT in IMC or LOC in IMC are different outcomes of the same scenario. While inadvertent flight into IMC is usually avoidable, it is seldom a deliberate act, unless you have fatalistic tendencies or are particularly stupid. On the other hand aeros and low flying are deliberate and not surprisingly the accident rate is high for those who have not had the appropriate training. Quite a few will deliberately give it go whilst not many will deliberately fly into IMC. LOC in VMC covers the usual range of spins and stalls on approaches and departures and other landing events that go horribly wrong. In this study LOC in IMC accounted for the majority of accidents given that LOC during aeros and low flying is a preconceived and deliberate act as opposed to any of the other events that resulted in the accident. For that reason it could be argued that it is the single most significant reason for pilot fatality if you exclude those who deliberately chose to play Topgun.

[scooter boy]

Thanks for the above v useful info Fuji + nice to finally have some facts to flesh things out :ok:

SB

[Put1992]

if your really worried about things falling off, see if you can do a walkaround before each flight, and give things a little "tug". Ive only 8 hours and being young(15) some of my early lessons natrually made me nervous. Now im pushed quite hard in the flying itself as im told i have very high potential and people are trying to get the best out of me. Just really concentrate on your flying, e.g really focus on the outside and instrument scan. your flying will improve, and your mind will be taken off the fact that your in a small tube of metal with wheels and wings;) sorry that cant of helped. saying that i was very nervous today when doing slow flight. God help me when im doing stalls :sad:

Matthew:)

[Jenni Morton]

imvho

it is disciline over instinct
the reverse being the normal - well for me!!!!!:rolleyes:
hence i have not achieved
:bored:sad

[Humaround]

Fuji quoted

"Over 80% of the CFITs were in IMC"

That means 20% of CFITs were in VMC and the pilot wasn't paying attention???!!!

:eek: