View Full Version : Robinson Servicing
I have titled this Robinson servicing but its not restricted to Robinsons. I wondered if anyone could shed some light on the ridiculous way we pay for servicing in the UK or in my case Scotland. We seem to be charged a "fixed" price for a 50 or 100hr service BUT this fixed price is more than if we just paid the time at £x per hour plus parts. I have just bought an R44 from Belgium and the dealer over there simply charge the time and parts making the overall price much cheaper than here.
Normally when a "fixed" price is introduced it tends to be cheaper than if you were to pay by the hour but not in this case. I fully appreciate that we have to pay for servicing but surely this is a bit of a cartel?
Comments?
ericferret
16th May 2007, 09:55
What counts is the maintenance standard. You can cost the work anyway you want.
What difference in price for a check are you talking about?
Years ago I quoted £950 for an annual on a Piper Saratoga.
I lost the work to another outfit that quoted £900.
Final bill to the owner £9,000, laughed fit to bust!!!!!!!!!!!
quichemech
16th May 2007, 12:19
If you're not happy change your maintenance org, in my limited experience I've found it the otherway round, set cost checks often were lower than the actual rate we could have billed.
As an aside what do you pay to have your car maintained per hour, at a rough guess it's probably more than you pay for your 44. Puts things into perspective doesn't it.:=
helicopter-redeye
16th May 2007, 14:06
It is actually more expensive to service a Jeep than an R44 if you follow the service schedule on both (except for the float bottle, which does not exist on a Jeep).
h-r:suspect:
razer
16th May 2007, 15:20
It is actually more expensive to service a Jeep than an R44 if you follow the service schedule on both (except for the float bottle, which does not exist on a Jeep).
h-r
This is interesting. How did you come up with that number? What year/model Jeep is that for, and in what region of the world? I assume that you're assuming that the dealership is paid to do all the service, is that right?
Thanks.
ericferret
16th May 2007, 16:42
Watched Noel Edmonds on the box a number of years ago telling all his viewers that he paid less to have his helicopter serviced than his car.
At the time I was working on his helicopter and wasn't impresssed.
However it turned out that the labour rate at Air Hanson was less than the BMW dealerships in London.
I pay £430 (fixed price) plus the oil and filter £56.00, making a total of £486.00 exc VAT. My Toyota Landcruiser has just been serviced 40,000 miles £286.00 inc VAT. I think the point has been missed, a 50 hour service on an R44 should take no longer than 5 hours MAX. My maintenance company charge £50.00 per hour so why isn't it £250.00 plus the parts. As you go up to the 100 hour it obviously gets worse. Would be interesting to know what people are paying around the UK. I'm sure this will have been done in the past but an up to date list might be useful. Redeye I wish you were right!
helicopter-redeye
16th May 2007, 18:48
I have a survey that is a bit out of date as I tendered an R44 maintenance contract a couple of years ago. There are some widely differing quoted rates (and actual rates) around the UK. Some companies quote 10 times the cost of doing a job that another equally well qualified (and licensed) engineer does.
h-r:suspect:
PS on the Jeep thing, I'm comparing the plated service rates 50/100 on a R44 -v- a Jeep dealers plated service rates for standard services. I know where I get most value ...
(ans: the heli service)
muffin
16th May 2007, 18:53
Redeye
I would be interested in a rerun of your survey if you ever do it again. I seem to remember who was the cheapest at the time but I suspect that it may be totally different now.
helicopter-redeye
16th May 2007, 19:04
No plans to redo for now as my (our?) current maintenance providers do a good job on the work allocated to them and have a strong experienced team (12 mins from base).
I think there are people who come in lower on cost and those that come in higher on cost and lower on .... but there is a happy balance between cost, trust and quality.
h-r;)
So redeye how does my 50 hr price compare to what you pay?Or anyone else for that matter
helicopter-redeye
17th May 2007, 10:04
I'd say it was within £10 of what I pay, and probably at the low end o the scale.
It's the things that are not in the FP that push the costs up.
heli1
17th May 2007, 12:45
My problem is not so much the cost but finding the manpower !
My maintenance centre has such a backlog I despair of ever flying again.
Drumpump
17th May 2007, 14:06
Australia is probably a lot different but when I was flying R22's I had a maintenance authority organised by the chief engineer of the maintenance provider to do my own 50 hrlys (Oil, filter, AD inspections) doesn't get any cheaper.
The point that I am trying to make here is this. If you get a guy in to decorate 1 of your 2 identical lounges and he tells you that he charges £20.00 per hour and it takes him 8 hours and charges you £160.00 then thats fine. If he comes back and says that he will give you a "fixed price" of £240.00 for doing the other lounge you would have something to say surely and this is my point.....is it just me:ugh:
helicopter-redeye
18th May 2007, 16:52
If he has to estimate every job the price goes up because of the higher cost base. That is the basis of the unit of work pricing system. But if nobody is selling at variable pricing then you have nowhere to go.
smarthawke
20th May 2007, 21:22
Just out of interest you say the servicing cost is more than the hours spent on it. Is this quoted time or how long the machine was in the hangar?
I can only speak from the world of fixed wing servicing but we have to do paperwork (before and after the servicing) as well as time spent actually on the machine and there isn't just one person working on the aircraft.
Normally our hourly rate is well below on scheduled servicing. As others have said, how much would you pay to have a car serviced of a similar value - and it isn't a case of plugging it into a big black box and saying 'computer says no!'.
It should take around 5 hours max to do a 50hr on an R44. Some would say less. In the Heli servicing world they seem to quote "fixed prices" but these don't relate to the actual time spent working on the machine. ie 5 hours! I suspect that when these were introduced whenever it was, that tehy perhaps included repairing other things that were seen at the time, obviously up to a point, like perhaps replacing a bulb or tightening a belt, but now all these things are over and above the fixed price. Just seems a bit mad really!
smarthawke
22nd May 2007, 21:29
Most establishments (certainly fixed wing) have a standard basic rate for scheduled servicing. In our world: 50hr, 150hr, Annual and Star Annual.
The cost quoted is for the inspections in accordance with the CAA Light Aircraft Maintenance Schedule (which exists for rotary stuff as well as fixed wing) CAP 411.
Any defect rectification, parts and labour for said defect rectification are charged on top of that. Pretty much as car servicing is done normally.
Totally understand, but why quote £50 per hour then charge £400 for a fixed 5 hour service( 50 hour)????:=
helicopter-redeye
23rd May 2007, 07:50
Because a unit of work pricing system generates more profit per activity than a per hour pricing system
So basically its a rip off:ugh:
smarthawke
23rd May 2007, 14:34
I agree that's a bit bizarre!
As a comparison, we charge £320 for a fixed wing (PA28 etc) 50hr check (+parts and defect rectification). That we calculate as 8 hours work @ £40/hour.
Never really worked out why helicopter, avionics and twins cost more per hour than fixed wing single airframe/engine work!
Perhaps the 5hrs @ £50/hour = £400 is a result of someone leaving school before the maths lessons kicked in....?!
Chopper Doc Junior
23rd May 2007, 17:19
If you can't afford to pay to have your helicopter serviced properly then sell it or earn more money.
There is a lot of paperwork associated with every piece of work that is carried out on a helicopter and it all has to be paid for. I spend many hours each evening doing paperwork and I'm not doing it for fun but to pay the bills just like everyone else.
The rates you have quoted seem to be on the low side already so you really have no cause for complaint.
"If you can't afford to pay to have your helicopter serviced properly then sell it or earn more money."
Hmmm, If you can't read the original question, earning more money isn't going to help you Chopper Doc Junior! The rates are pretty much the average or certainly what Sloanes etc charge. The paperwork on a 50 hr is minimal. Understand the Junior part of your name now.
ericferret
24th May 2007, 12:33
Surely this is about the breakdown of a business relationship.
I took my car to the same garage for years, then began to believe that they were overcharging so I moved garage.
This situation is not unusual. If they are overcharging so badly the word will get round and they will have no customers.
It is a commercial situation, they can charge what they want.
As long as they do not artificially inflate hours on a job there is no problem.
As they are quoting up front this is not the case.
No one is being forced to use this maintenance organisation.
Anybody who has tried to book a holiday when the kids are off school has similar issues, the price suddenly jumps. Market forces are at work.
To be honest I have little sympathy. I have worked in G.A for over 30 years often earning a pittance and watching maintenance companies charging less than the local garage. I remember one helicopter owner who's car tyres each cost more than I was paid a week.
I've watched maintenance outfits reduce legitimate bills after the owner has come in whining about the cost, because they didn't want to loose the business. Done that myself in fact. For the first time G.A maintenance is in the position to make a profit and pay their staff a decent wage.
If you are that unhappy move on, there is nothing worse than believing you are being ripped off.
ericferret
24th May 2007, 12:52
I notice that the figures given for a 50 hour on a PA 28 are based on 8 man hours.
I would say that the work content between a helicopter and light fixed wing are similar. I believe that 5 man hours for a 50 on an R44 is cutting to the bone.
Most of the work scope on a LAMS (A) 50 is almost identical to a LAMS (H).
So if its 8 hours for a PA 28 then 8 for an R44 would not seem unreasonable. The only real difference being the hourly rate, but again thats a commercial issue.
The reason Avionics, Twins and Helicopters cost more is that the market will stand it.
If you fly single piston helicopters you need money.
If you fly single turbine helicopters you need loads of money.
If you fly twin turbine helicopters you need someone elses money.
Eric I didn't ask for your sympathy nor do I require it. The point I'm making is simply that if it takes 5 hours to service the heli why fixed price £400 if its £50 p/h. If its £80 p/h fine, its a really simple question. The 5 hours came from me waiting to have it done. It actually took 1 guy 4 hours but I stated 5 to cover any paperwork etc. I really don't care at the end of the day what it costs I'm just trying to understand how this has come about. If you fly heli's and own them lets face it, you're hardly on the breadline. My insurance costs more per hour for the 100 hours I fly per year so money doesn't come into it.
Quote:"As long as they do not artificially inflate hours on a job there is no problem."
Agree 110% so why can't I say I want my heli serviced in accordance with LAMS and charge me the time it takes? Why will no organisation do this? Someone must know the answer.
Perhaps you shouldn't have stayed in it 30 years Eric if you were earning a pittance but then again maybe laughing at your lost customers made up for it!
Quote:"Years ago I quoted £950 for an annual on a Piper Saratoga.
I lost the work to another outfit that quoted £900.
Final bill to the owner £9,000, laughed fit to bust!!!!!!!!!!!"
ericferret
24th May 2007, 17:16
What I did was give up working on privately owned aircraft about 15 years ago.
I swore I would only work for people who owned and maintained their own aircraft ( actually I also swore I would never work in the UK again, but as they say never say never). By and large I have stuck to this and the end result has been a reasonable living and a lot less stress.
I notice that this months Flyer has a list of maintenance outfits with their charges, maybe the answer to our problem lies within it's pages.
Perhaps you're right. I'll have to try and get a copy. Bottom line is, as long as its done right thats the main thing. Nice to have some sort of consistency though.:ok:
hatters united
25th May 2007, 14:04
Bvgs.
I have previously worked for several companies who's policly was to charge a fixed rate for Scheduled Inspections, I seem to recall a 100 Hr Insp on a R22 costing £480 @ £40 per hour = 12 hrs labour.If the job was done in 10 hours then the company gained 2 hrs labour, however if it took 14 hrs then the company lost. It is often a case of "swings and roundabouts"
I have also worked for a company who have no fixed rate charges what so ever, if a job takes 100 man hours then that is exactly what is charged :{
However in all the companies, the customers complain about the bills being to high :mad: and the management would complain about the cheap labour rates compaired to those charged by car garages.:ugh:
I also seem to recall that in the Robinson Manual somewhere it states the labour hours required for a 100hr & Annual Inspection.( remember there is no 50 hr Insp on the N reg )