Removal of posts [Archive]

gcolyer

14th May 2007, 16:31

Can anyone explain why my post offering a cessna 172 for sale was removed and the below post was not?

Don't give me that "You're not supposed to sell stuff" ball s**t because the below add is quiet clearly selling as well.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=275749

Now I don't mind posts being removed, I just like to see the same rules applied to everyone. Clearly not the issue here, and clearly not the issue when it comes to OBA threads.

I also think it is quiet polite to tell the poster that their thread has been removed.

BRL

14th May 2007, 22:11

Hello. I noticed this earlier and moved it out of view for a while, just my sense of humour I suppose.....

In response to your questions, shares in planes are often allowed on this forum, encouraged in fact. For Sale items are positively discouraged, we don't want the forum to end up like ebay now do we and I often have to remove threads that are selling all kinds of things, mostly used ppl equipment but we just can't have stuff like that cluttering up the forum.

I had a complaint last night saying your thread was advertising. At the time, I thought I would leave it up for a few hours so that others could see it, as you say you have paid for a title and I am quite lenient regarding allowing links etc so I let it stay for a while but after I logged off it was moved away by someone else.

The OBA threads have nothing to do with this they have their own place in the wannabees forum.

I couldn't agree more with your last statement. Unfortunately, this does not always happen. Could be a number of reasons why mods don't do it, I do it whenever I can, don't forget we do this in our own time, we do what we can, when we can and if I have only a few min's taking a quick look over breakfast or something then I won't have time to reply until I return home. With some mods this could be days.

I hope this has cleared a few things up for you.

PPRuNe Towers

14th May 2007, 22:47

PPRuNE suports group flying. PFA preferably or private Cof A groups.

We like groups, we support and encourage group flying here. It's a great way forward for retention. This does not include speculative, managed grouping. Grassroots or nothing.

Standard sales stuff we are not interested in until we can wheel out a classified sales forum that is automated.

Regards
Rob

Pilot DAR

15th May 2007, 00:50

Thank you BRL;

Both for your efforts as a moderator, and for your polite approach to this particular situation. I value the open and non-commercial environment here, it is very conducive to be objectively supportive to others in our industry. It works as is, please keep commerce out of it, and keep the format just as is. (though longer period before time out would be a help)

Others, with non-supportive motives, please avail yourselves of the many places on the internet there to sell your stuff. PPRuNe has demonstrated a higher calling....

Pilot DAR

gcolyer

15th May 2007, 07:55

I fully appreciate the efforts you guys put in. And thank you for putting this thread back up. I have had numerous PM's supporting my anger at selective removal of threads and no uniformity in the decision.

shares in planes are often allowed on this forum, encouraged in fact. For Sale items are positively discouraged

However...selling a share in an aircraft/group is no different to selling an aircraft or any other object. It is still "Advertising".

Then saying:

We like groups, we support and encourage group flying here. It's a great way forward for retention. This does not include speculative, managed grouping. Grassroots or nothing.

Is totaly discriminating against sinlge owner operators. Many many people on here are sole owner of their aircraft and probably members that have paid some money to PPrune or at least had extensive usefull input. I am sure they will be very pleased to know that their types are not quiet so welcome here.

Others, with non-supportive motives, please avail yourselves of the many places on the internet there to sell your stuff. PPRuNe has demonstrated a higher calling....

Selling a group share is no different to selling an aircraft or a tube of smarties. Selling is selling no matter what way you spin it.

Now I am totally happy with not being allowed to advertise/sell on PPrune, the rule just needs to be enforced 100% not selectively. After all it is only fair.

BRL

15th May 2007, 09:43

First....... I have had numerous PM's supporting my anger at selective removal of threads and no uniformity in the decision.

When threads are removed they are done for good reason. there was a thread recently asking if anyone could fly a 747 if needed to when there was a thread running with all the answers in it already.

As for other threads being removed I have not had to delete any threads for ages now. You have to be pretty dim to post something that gets removed, just look at the forum, can you see any 'for sale' threads? No, because a majority of users know not to do it and know what stays and what goes.

This is not a dig at you, you genuinely thought it was the same as a share going for sale and have argued your point with that. Fair play mate no worries there but I would have preferred you emailed me about it rather than start two threads slagging off mod decisions. I don't like that considering the amount of time I put into this forum, to keep it clean of for sale ads and so on, so you can come here and have a decent forum, not to come here and wade through piles of crap before reading anything interesting.

I expect these people who have angrily flooded your PM box don't know how to use email yet as I have not had one complaint (other than yours) regarding removal of posts or threads for some time now. (possibly due to the fact I have not removed anything for a while)

Back to the original point, for sale being the same as share for sale. I think things are ok at the moment the way we do it. No for sale, no wanted threads allowed. Standard ops, has been the same for years. Shares for sale, is allowed for the reasons mentioned above by Rob. If you want to argue the point feel free to email the admin here who have the power to change things, take it up with them, ask them for a for sale forum, argue the toss with them, see how it goes. You never know!

Those of you reading this on the fence (or off it) what do you think about a for sale or classified forum? Does pprune need something like that or keep things the way they are...? Let me know here. (if you can be bothered!!)

DKP1

15th May 2007, 10:00

What is the impact/harm of having a for sale forum as long as no responsibility is implied for the items by PPRuNe?

I've not really looked at many forums apart from private flying and mil aircrew which always seem busy, are some of the other forums used infrequently?

Maybe one of these could be changed to a sales board type forum?

BLot Bang Rub

Three Yellows

15th May 2007, 10:02

BRL,

A 'classified section' sounds like a great idea, BUT as most if not all of the Mods are working crew I don't see how you would have the time, energy or resources to control it..... setting up a payment mechanism would certainly bring in some money... but I don't think that's what you or we want. It's not what (IMHO) Pprune is about.

Leave the selling/buying to Ebay/pilotweb/flyer etc etc.

Fuji Abound

15th May 2007, 10:29

BRL

My farthings worth .. .. ..

Personally I feel there is little difference between group adverts and other adverts. I would prefer to see no advertising on this forum of any sort.

In theory another forum specifically for adverts is a good idea. However, it presents its own problems. There will be the usual complaints to deal with because one party or other, having bought something, feels the item was wrongly described, there will be the commercial sellers masquerading as private sellers, and the trademark violations of selling items as being similar to or like etc. It all takes time moderating and I am guessing the mods don’t have the time.

For that reason leave the selling to the "professional" on line auctions.

Thanks for moderating - one of those thankless tasks that we should all appreciate. :ok:

gcolyer

15th May 2007, 10:30

I still do not understand how you say selling a share is different to selling the whole plane.

Can anyone clarify this?? If you go to the super super market and by half a melon and the bloke next to you buys a whole melon, both people have a bought melon and the super market has sold melon.

As for Classifieds section, I don't think it is a bad idea but must admit it might well take some policeing. It might be an idea that has a disclaimer stating they are in no way responsible for buyer or seller protection and are not responsible for financial transactions. However charging a commision or fee for the sale post is perfectably understandable.

gcolyer

15th May 2007, 10:32

Fuji's comments are pretty much fair and spot on.

DubTrub

15th May 2007, 10:55

There are plenty of "other" web-based places to sell things.

I can't see an advantage in having such a facility here.

BRL

15th May 2007, 10:57

Hi again. Regarding shares, they are ok. Whole planes for sale are usually through an agency or something like that, hardly ever private individuals like yourself.

The agency would take advantage and have planes for sale all the time if they could get away with it, single owners don't flood the forum with their ads. This is why I decided to leave yours up for a while. This kind of advert from a private seller doesn't happen often so I choose to leave yours as you hold a title and are a regular contributer too. I shouldn't do this, I know that, but letting an ad through, once in a blue moon for a regular in my book is ok. Must drive the site owners mad but that is the way I like to do things here and so far it has worked ok.

I can see your point exactly but stopping for sale ads by individual owners is preventing everyone jumping on the bandwagon, I hope that makes sense, if you get away with it, then the next man will try, then where will it end.....

As others have said, they don't want to come here to see for sale ads and I don't either, a one off, once a blue moon is bearable as in your situation but that is it. Hope you can see where I am coming from!!!! :)

cavortingcheetah

15th May 2007, 11:13

:hmm:

But there is an enormous and basic difference between advertising the sale of a whole aircraft and selling a share in one, especially within the context in which Pprune operates.
An advertisement to sell or buy an aircraft is a straight commercial offer to treat. Such an advertisement could be for anything remotely connected with aviation in an effort to maintain its relevance to an aviation forum.
An advertisement to sell or buy a share in an aircraft is an invitation or request to join a small club of what are usually amateur aviators whose interests primarily lie in keeping themselves flying at a reasonable cost.
The two are quite distinct and it would appear that Pprune managment do not intend to become involved in the former but wish to enourage the latter. :) Highly commendable, of course!:D

Pilot DAR

15th May 2007, 11:27

Yes, it is apparent to me that PPRuNe is "totally discriminating", to quote gcolyer. That is as it should be, and I support it. Though I am not conversant with the origin of PPRuNe, it is obviously private, and therefore entitled to discriminate however it [they] want within the bounds of society's acceptance. Complaining about it seems pointless to me.

It's like going into a private store, and complaining to the manager that they don't sell airplanes. They are not required to sell airplanes, they can sell or not sell whatever they like. You should expect a polite reaction back "well, we thought about it and chose not to sell airplanes". That response has been offered here. No further explanation is required, though that courtesy has also been offered here.

PPRuNe serves a different purpose, and to dilute it's resources to support commercial activity would be a poor idea. If it helps members to link aircraft shares for sale to members looking for them, I think that is help that is worthy of stepping into the grey zone. All grey zones need a far edge, and outright aircraft sale should be kept on the other side of that edge in my opinion.

BRL stick by your principles here. It would appear to me that whole aircraft ad posters have the potential for volatility, which just does not suit the helping and intellectual objectives of PPRuNe.

Perhaps the other member should start a thread "where's the best place to advertise my plane for sale?". I'll promise to keep my comments to myself, and refrain from posting "Not here" as a reply!

Pilot DAR

SkyHawk-N

15th May 2007, 11:28

gcolyer - Good try....didn't work....move on :ok:

Kirstey

15th May 2007, 11:40

Gcolliflower - go to the flyer forum, they have a "classifieds" forum on there and you can put your ad up.

As someone who's had a fair smattering of posts remove (some i agree with some I do not). I think BRL in particular does a good and civilised job (i usually get a "I've done this because" PM), if I don't agree I won't argue. It's his judgement call, not mine on what is suitable.

Whirlybird

15th May 2007, 11:54

I can't see anything against having a classified ads forum. It could easily have a disclaimer saying PPRuNe isn't responsible if you get sold rubbish, if someone doesn't pay you etc etc. It could even have a note saying it's unmoderated and you enter at your own risk, if no-one has time to moderate it. And it might fill a useful purpose. Where's the harm in that?

cavortingcheetah

15th May 2007, 11:58

:hmm:

There might be those of us who can remember the days not so long gone when Pprune had a very fair approximation of a classified ads forum. If one's memory serves, wasn't it called something like Agony Aunt?;) :)

dublinpilot

15th May 2007, 12:04

I don't want to see for sale ads here. I agree with BRL on that.

If people want a seperate classifieds forum that's fine with me, but I'm not likely to visit it.

The reason people want to post for sale ads in this forum is because of the amount of people who will see it. Because much fewer people will bother looking in a classifieds forum, they are less likely to want to bother posting in there.

dp

Goright

15th May 2007, 12:13

Sorry folks, you have gotten me all confused. In PPrunes ideal to support Groups are we still saying that a direct Group share sale notice is not allowed. If this is the case (which I am happy to accept if them's the rules) can I run a thread discussing the availablibilty of shares in a group and requesting interest in such a share ??

Big J

Fuji Abound

15th May 2007, 12:26

A few people have commented about having an unmoderated for sale forum.

That sounds like a very good idea and rightly so.

However (and I am very happy to be corrected) in these litigeous politically correct times I dont think it is that simple. If you are the people putting up the forum you shoulder some of the liabilit whatever disclaimers you may publish.

For example, someone may advertise DC headsets when infact they are not - that is trademark violation and it would be up to the owners of the site to do something about it.

Unmoderated forums on which any one can post just dont work - and sadly you would be surprised what some would post.

SkyHawk-N

15th May 2007, 12:32

Where's the harm in that?

Using up valuable server bandwidth which most of us would prefer used to support the non-sales side of the forum?

gcolyer

15th May 2007, 12:35

BRL thanks for the explanation. I totaly understand your point about traders and agents. Like I said I am happy to not be allowed to advertise. I just failed to undertand how it is different to sell a share or the whole thing.

As far as people harping on about how they don't want to read sales adds blah blah blah.....then don't. It is so simple. I guess you already only read posts that are of interest to you.

Gcolliflower - go to the flyer forum, they have a "classifieds" forum on there and you can put your ad up.

And the reason for name calling would be??? You're level of maturity or lack of?

Kirstey

15th May 2007, 13:02

gcolyer - i'm completely immature! nothing personal, and don't worry about it, I certainly don't!

However, do go to the flyer forum, it has a similar sized audience and a forum specifically for your needs.

I also think there is a difference between advertising a group share and an aeroplane as a complete unit. I can't think of a decent analogy, but the concept of one being an advert for a membership in a club that promotes grass roots aviation and other being a commercial "thing" seems to be pretty spot on .

PPRuNe Towers

16th May 2007, 13:35

Sum up:

We chose not to have commercial ads within forums. There is a snowballing copycat effect. Same thing applies to charity ads for exactly the same reason. It poisons our signal to noise ratio.

We chose to offer space on the forum for group aircraft for exactly the same reasons. Publicity, snowballing to create copycats.

See? Absolutely consistent reasons.:E :E

Behind the secenes all mods have the prime commandment drummed into them.

Keep me and Danny out of court and maintain the signal to noise ratio.

PPRuNe is a very attractive venue for cheapskate advertisers because readers are here voluntarily in large numbers. However, because they are here of their own free will we won't have 'editorial' polluted. Other than the originator of this thread the only people pissing us off at the moment are those jumping on the bandwagon to promote commercial places and events.

As demonstrated BRL has some flexibility and leeway for what he considers the greater good. He also has the option to adopt one aviation based charity for regular publicity on the forum as our thanks for all the work he puts in. However, he will give short shrift to those who register and never contribute anything to PPRuNe other than to publicise a single venue or event.

Regards
Rob

nano404

16th May 2007, 15:04

go to the flyer forum, they have a "classifieds" forum on there and you can put your ad up.

Good suggestion but what if the person who wants something similar to what the person is selling is using PPRuNe, and he doesn't visit the Flyer forum?

Whats wrong with the classified, any person with an ounce of common sense would ask to view the aircraft before they buy. Sure it may cost you a trip but may save you tens of thousands by just simply inspecting the plane. You go to by a PA-28, you get a C-150, buy a twin, get a single I understand that it's of concern but go inspect the darn thing.

If Flyer can do it then why not PPRuNe? (I see a few 'mod material' people here so the lack of mods is fixable)

Knight Paladin

16th May 2007, 15:41

nano - Because the people that set up, run, and own PPRuNe don't want it that way. That's entirely their decision to make, and we should respect that!

PPRuNe Towers

16th May 2007, 17:15

wot he said:}

Content - not commercials.

We may or may not be right. Those viewing with clever business heads on will not understand this but might like to read on.

Danny and I fly Boeings for a living. We don't want to wear suits. Our people don't want to meet your people and a power breakfast consists of reheating last night's ruby. We like running PPRuNe and we like aeroplanes. We are also naturally inquisitive - nosy if you like.

Only 2 forums earn money for us. We don't care - we subsidise the rest, including this one, 100%. We don't care. We didn't care when we got 3000 users in a month, we don't care now just about to hit 3000 users per 5 minutes.

We say no ads and we pay the bills not you. We said no ads 10 years ago and we still say it today. We want forums with content and we bar those, like the Kemble aeros mob who try to cross the line into advertorial.

Again, for the business hot shots - we grow at 30% per annum through this policy and have never borrowed a penny. It may not be how you'd do it but you are welcome to get stuck in and do the job properly elsewhere. You can have a go at the unmoderated sales forum at the same time.

PPRuNe ploughs it's own furrow that's all.

rob