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NLJ
14th May 2007, 14:13
I know a recent thread went on at length about salaries and what level they should be at, but I have been asked to research current salary levels with a view to overhauling the system we have in place at the moment here at the Lancashire Police Air Support Unit. This has come about due to the minimal response (3) to our recent job vacancy advertised in Flight International. I'm looking for information principally from the Public Transport and Corporate sectors in the UK, on Line Pilot and Chief Pilot salaries, together with variations caused by the possession of an IR or specialised working environment. If you could respond in the form of PM, anonymously if you prefer, it would be appreciated. With sufficient data I'll publish the results which will hopefully be of benefit to others.

Canadian Rotorhead
15th May 2007, 00:16
Here's a link that may help...



http://http://brian.hudson.home.mchsi.com/helopay/pay_scales/index.htm

Impress to inflate
15th May 2007, 12:52
Try www.pilotjobsnetwork.com. You should get some info there

ROTORVATION
16th May 2007, 09:31
Dear NLJ,

Please read your PM's, I have just sent you an Email.

Best regards

Rotorvation:ok:

Bertie Thruster
17th May 2007, 20:47
………So the Direct Employment “honeymoon” is over and the police bean counters have decided to ignore the maxim that 'you only get what you pay for' and are now trying to get their pilots even more cheaply.

When it came along a few years ago (carried along in the shirt tails of “Best Value”) direct employment originally saved the Feds cash while at the same time giving their experienced, loyal pilots a much needed salary boost when compared to their contractor pay.

Now direct employers are reining in on costs with veiled threats to their pilot workforce to lump it otherwise the air support units (and thus the pilots jobs) could be at stake! (even though the pilots salaries are only a small part of the overall cost)

It is even rumoured some units presently changing to direct employment are going to offer the pilots packages that will be lower than their present contractor remuneration!

This is indeed a sorry state for the onshore industry to be in.

‘Offshore’ got it right in 2001 and 2005; professionally led pay negotiations with benchmarking against the fixed wing sector. ( Even so, as of last week in Aberdeen, where in 2007 for the first time a line pilot will break through the £100k ceiling, it is rumoured that Bristows are still short of 19 pilots and CHC are short 24!)


NLJ. If its any help to you in your police beancounter negotiations, I understand the CAA have recently engaged consultants to carry out a “census” of commercial pilots salaries in the UK, in all sectors of the industry both fixed and rotary wing. I think the results are due soon.

anonythemouse
18th May 2007, 09:21
Didn't actually see the advert but, being nosey, what was the package offered.

Bertie, nail hit firmly on the head methinks!

ShyTorque
18th May 2007, 10:01
So much for employee loyalty (again). Eh, Bertie?
A few years ago it was a case of the employers telling pilots that they made no profit for the company - the only profit was in engineering and maintenance. At the same time they were also telling the engineers that no profit was made from their efforts - it was only made through pilotage. You know who I mean...

With the market being as it is, how do the police possibly hope to attract pilots for even less money whilst still demanding relatively highly experienced pilots? It's ridiculous to tell pilots they are putting the whole operation at risk by merely expecting a competitive salary.

IIRC, the whole business case for having ASUs in the first place centered around saving money, by saving man hours on ground searches.

Then direct employment was seen as best value, saving even more money..

Perhaps the Chief Constables should apply for charitable status for ASUs..... :rolleyes: (no, I'm not serious).

Whirlygig
18th May 2007, 10:17
Police budgets and hence salaries are not dictated by “bean-counters” but by politicians as are all public sector salaries. Therefore, public sector and private sector salaries are not comparable.

The short term nature of public spending means that the “honeymoon period” will be about half as long as a term of office! Savings made in Year 1 by Direct Employment will, ipso facto, be forgotten about by Year 4 when the squeeze on budgets becomes greater. Rises in Council Tax are answerable to the electorate; rises in private sector salaries are answerable to shareholders only.

Public Sector salaries are used by the Chancellor as a tool for keeping down inflation. Inflation too high; public sector salary rises 2% for example when the rest of the private sector workforce can enjoy say, 5%.

As for ASUs not being able to fill posts, I suspect it’s not just a matter of salary but a genuine shortage of qualified people. I doubt whether there are any suitably qualified and experienced pilots on the dole at the moment, therefore anyone who may be suitable for the role would have to leave another job. This would probably involve relocation for some which may not be feasible for some due to other commitments.

So, the other approach to filling pilot vacancies should come from training those with less experience which is what other professions do!

Cheers

Whirls

PS- Bertie, you’ve spelt bean counters incorrectly, it should be spelt “those wonderful, lovely people in the Finance Department”.

Impress to inflate
18th May 2007, 11:29
Whirls

"PS- Bertie, you’ve spelt bean counters incorrectly, it should be spelt “those wonderful, lovely people in the Finance Department”."


Don't you mean Abacus Wan&ers

helimutt
18th May 2007, 11:35
Impress to Inflate, you obviously don't know what Whirls does for a living then? lmao:ok:

Whirlygig
18th May 2007, 11:57
Never, ever p!$$ off an accountant.

If you prick us, do we not bleed,
If you tickle us, do we not laugh,
And if you wrong us, do we not seek revenge.

Cheers

Whirls

Bertie Thruster
18th May 2007, 12:02
Whirls,


I think it will be much cheaper in the long run for the police to pay the benchmarked rate for experienced (twin, night, mountain, nvg, crm, bad wx, low level,etc) single pilot captains (available now from the 'usual source', for the right pay) than to set up their own training schools!

Regards, BT

R1Tamer
18th May 2007, 12:16
Bertie Thruster

I'm pretty certain you're right - but hey "shy kids get now sweets". How about a serving Police Officer (17ys) with low hour CPL(H) and IR(H) - not quite the 'usual source' but got to be somewhere in the ball-park and I know two of them?

R1Tamer

Whirlygig
18th May 2007, 12:16
Yes probably but since when did the public sector use common sense when it comes to saving money? Training budget vs salary budget? Different departments, different "pots".

Cheers

Whirls

airborne_artist
18th May 2007, 14:32
You need to factor in that the FW market is picking up, and ex-mil RW guys can easily apply for the RAFCARS BA scheme (or Managed Path) - which requires 1500 hours of qualifying time, easily reached by those on their normal exit point. BA is not the only employer to be perfectly happy taking people on with low FW hours into the RHS.

It's a very different job, certainly, but a growing number of my ex-mil RW colleagues are now in the LHS of a big jet and very happy with the Ts and Cs.

SilsoeSid
23rd May 2007, 13:46
Oh dear, the thread slipped down to page 3! :8

Hi NLJ,

I wondered if there was anything that you can tell us from the data you have gathered so far. I would assume that the data has been broken down to differentiate between corporate and police work, two different kettles of fish I think.

Also a breakdown of rates at urban and rural forces, 24 hour units and joint HEMS/police units would give a more detailed picture.

As far as I am aware direct employment rates for police line pilots range from £45k (rural) to £63k (urban).

NLJ
23rd May 2007, 19:07
SilsoeSid,

The info is trickling in very slowly, when I get enough to publish something of value I will do so.
If there is anyone out there who wants to PM me then please do. Any information given will be treated as confidential.

NLJ.

keepin it in trim
23rd May 2007, 20:48
I made the jump from heli to fixed wing just over 2 years ago. I was a tri/tre, sp ir on the ec135 for a large on shore operator. I am now a line training captain for a major fractional jet operator (fill in the gaps if you like). I enjoyed flying the ec135 and the people I worked with were a great bunch, but I also work with a great bunch of people now. I also now have a stable roster, more time off, t and c's which overall are as good or better, oh and including my per diems my salary is roughly double.

When I started flying onshore commercial I brought with me around 5800 experience 4000 of that on heavy twin rotary, day/night, nvg and ifr. The simple facts are that if you want quality people with good experience the pool is getting smaller. The north sea pays well, the asu/air ambulance sector does not, I do not see it ever reaching North Sea levels, but it needs to get a lot better if it going to attract the right sort of people into a satisfying but also very demanding part of the helicopter world.

Sorry if this seems a little off topic but I think that guys in the on shore market are getting quite a lot less than they are worth.

Helinut
23rd May 2007, 22:26
KIIT,
Not off topic at all IMO - absolutely on the button it seems to me. It is all about making comparisons, against a series of factors and elements that go to make up a job and the people that do it.
I believe there are signs that the onshore parapublic hele business is already lowering its standards, in terms of the required experience for pilots they are taking on. I wonder how long it will be before we see a sad result arising from those undesirable changes.
I am aware of at least 1 very scary "near miss" at night which has resulted in the "passengers" at a base insisting that a pilot was removed from the roster. He had very limited experience of both night flying and twins. I just hope that such things are always caught at that point and nothing more serious occurs........
It has been suggested on threads here and elsewhere that the new PITO framework will involve substantial rises in the rates that contractors charge their customers for police pilotage. I wonder whether any of those rises will be seen in the wage packets of the pilots. I am not holding my breath personally, but that would be the rational and fair outcome.
Helinut

SilsoeSid
23rd May 2007, 23:19
It has been suggested on threads here and elsewhere that the new PITO framework will involve substantial rises in the rates that contractors charge their customers for police pilotage.

Simple for the customer then isn't it.

Employ your own pilots, pay them a little more than they are already on, after all they will be getting paid more than before, and the savings will grow exponentially.

Tea and medals for the bean counters! Sorry, “those wonderful, lovely people in the Finance Department”.

If the pilots don't like it, 'because we can lower the required standards and someone will always be available', they can make their own choice.

It would seem to some that the view of some employers is the same as a saying we had in 660 Sqn,

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/660zap.jpg

Oogle
24th May 2007, 09:23
Two pages and still no numbers given!

Come on guys, let's us know what coin you are earning so the rest of us can get jealous. :}

verticalhold
24th May 2007, 10:15
NLJ;

Check your PMs. The figures are as accurate as I can get.

VH.

SilsoeSid
31st May 2007, 10:31
Anything to report yet NLJ ?

Lplates
31st May 2007, 11:35
Hi all

Nationally speaking what is the standard hourly rate paid for a new FI H.

Many thanks.

NLJ
31st May 2007, 15:58
To SilsoeSid and everyone else who may be waiting, I'll have something to post by the end of next week.

NLJ

Whirlygig
31st May 2007, 16:34
LPlates,

I think an average hourly rate would be about £35-40 per flying hour i.e. you don't get paid if student doesn't show, or weather's bad, or briefing etc.

Cheers

Whirls

Gerhardt
31st May 2007, 18:47
Would someone else PLEASE make the joke so that I'm not expelled. Again.

Whirlygig
31st May 2007, 20:55
What joke Gerhardt? There's nowt funny about Shylock, The Merchant of Venice and there's equally nowt funny about pilots' salaries! :}

I dunno but, some of them are laughable!

Cheers

Whirls

Big-Windy
1st Jun 2007, 07:54
Well, I thought that we may have had some candid responses to NLJs request. You know, of the "yes I earn ££blah blah" sort of thing.

Sadly, there doesn't appear to be any of that.

Is it because we're all too embarrassed to admit that what we're earning just isn't good enough? None of us will openly publish because we fear ridicule! Well, that tells its own story.

:{

Lplates
1st Jun 2007, 16:00
Whirlygig

Many thanks..

Looking to start my FI course soon. Thought I'd check to see what the going rate is.

Lplates

SilsoeSid
1st Jun 2007, 16:26
Good point Big Windy,
How about we put up arbitrary figures and we can say less or more?

Police/Hems
Captain/Line pilots
£48,000

Chief Pilots,
£56,000


Corporate
Captain/Line pilot
£52,000

Chief Pilots,
£60,000

Is your salary less or more?


Offshore
Stop laughing! :(

ShyTorque
1st Jun 2007, 16:28
Big Windy, I'm sure most of us would say: "You go first, my friend!"

(Having said that, what I earn is between myself and my employer and not for public viewing).

SilsoeSid
1st Jun 2007, 16:56
Does all this make a bit of difference though?

What does it take to get a salary adjustment? Lets say NLJ comes up with a recommended salary for a police line pilot to be say £48K, do we really expect the other forces to increase their pilots salaries?

NLJs unit may get a few more applicants for the vacancy so it would only be that units pilots who benefit, the 'new boy' starting on 48K and the ones already there getting an adjusting raise.

Once this salary of 48k is known, is there really an effective way for another unit to fight the cause for salary increase against those 'managment heel diggers' who will not be 'held to ransom'? You can hear them now...you don't like it... http://library.thinkquest.org/11922/door_animated.gif

There endeth a happy unit! :{

jayteeto
1st Jun 2007, 17:02
Much less than those figures!! More than 10% less!!

anonythemouse
1st Jun 2007, 17:15
Just about scrape in to the bottom figure if I add my :mad: MIL pension!

ShyTorque
1st Jun 2007, 17:16
Sid,

In my experience, pilot salaries in particular only increase significantly when no-one will do the job for what is on offer. Myself and at least one other poster here were "burned" by the whims of a certain Chief Constable over direct employment issues. We both walked.

The Police have another option - keep the budget the same but make the goal posts wider with regard to minimum experience requirements; that appears to be the preferred option in these days of rampant bean countery.

SilsoeSid
1st Jun 2007, 17:36
I only hope the widening goalposts issue doesn't end up with someone in a report somewhere saying, "I told you so!"

ShyTorque
1st Jun 2007, 18:05
Sid,

Sadly, I could already quote one accident where that could easily have been said.

A pilot with high ambitions not backed up by sufficient experience.

But, I'd better not. :oh:

SilsoeSid
1st Jun 2007, 19:03
Not to do with skids and a run-on landing by any chance?

ShyTorque
2nd Jun 2007, 10:09
It ran on almost vertically........

FloaterNorthWest
2nd Jun 2007, 10:39
Silsoe,

For an experienced corporate captain you are looking more at £65k+ and a chief pilot £70k+. Know of a couple of jobs for captains going to £75-80k.

The unusual jobs out there are paying alot more.

At the end of the day your starting salary will depend on their need for a pilot, the pilots available and the salary you can get them up to.

FNW

RVDT
2nd Jun 2007, 11:07
~ 110K GBP NET give or take, fully found.

And yes it is a little unusual!

handysnaks
2nd Jun 2007, 15:07
I think we should be very careful about equating experience with safety. I should think that for every incident/accident that involves a relatively inexperienced pilot there exists another incident/accident that involves an 'experienced' pilot. :(
Just think of the occurrences that have affected the UK onshore public service fraternity.

SilsoeSid
2nd Jun 2007, 16:58
Very true handy.

Mine was a hope that incidents don't start to increase in our business, due to circumstances within someones control.

Bearing in mind ShyTs earlier post of;
The Police have another option - keep the budget the same but make the goal posts wider with regard to minimum experience requirements; that appears to be the preferred option in these days of rampant bean countery.

Today is just the start, it'll be interesting to see how wide the goalmouth becomes!!

NLJ
3rd Jun 2007, 20:55
Police/Hems
Captain/Line pilots
£48,000

SilsoeSid,

The average is £3-5K less than your figure above.

More to follow.

NLJ

EESDL
4th Jun 2007, 13:41
Why is it that ex-mil pilots tend to seek ems roles?
or is it the other way round with such jobs requiring ex-mil pilots?
I'd suspect it is convenience/availability/stability..............

Food for thought as current corporate/private sector is having to pay well above the figures mentioned so far to attract/retain suitably-qualified pilots.
Throw in the company car, LOL, health/pension and you're on a par/surpassing the off-shore folk.
Although not many onshore corporate concerns can offer all that and only want you to work half the year:{

Max_Chat
5th Jun 2007, 11:04
EESDL makes a good point of the package on offer, not just the headline rate of remuneration.

How much is loss of license worth? or a company car? or health care? Also the FTL being worked, some FTL's are more workable than others.

The direct employment route also has the advantage of not having share holders to pay so savings made their can be shared between Police and Pilots.

ShyTorque
5th Jun 2007, 11:49
The direct employment route also has the advantage of not having share holders to pay so savings made their can be shared between Police and Pilots.

Unfortunately, it appears that after the first contract, some police authorities want to make savings by reducing pilot salaries in a climate of the opposite!

Marco
5th Jun 2007, 12:45
A certain police authority is paying line pilots, who are at the top their scale, approximately £2K less than the starting salary as advertised with North Wales and Lancashire.

Their HR dept have failed to carry out the correct market factors salary review using information that is either old or incorrect.

HR state that they are waiting for a Hay job evaluation report to be published.

Hay were asked separately whether they could conduct a salary review for the constabularies pilots. The reply was " we do not have sufficient data to be able to produce a valid benchmark".

Max_Chat
6th Jun 2007, 10:47
I think the answer for the Police Authorities is in the fact that Pilot jobs for the Police are not being filled. We all know that it not just the advertised positions, but the word of mouth contact as well, that shows the market for Pilots that fill the Polices required experience and skills level is buoyant. If one authority is paying below what is becoming the norm, then representations should be made to alleviate this.

NLJ
8th Jun 2007, 21:45
The response to my request for salary information was dissapointingly small, but as a few of you are keen to know what I have found out I'll post it anyway and see what response it generates.

OFFSHORE
1st Officer : £40,000 - £50,000
Captain: £67,000 - £85,000

CORPORATE/PUBLIC TRANSPORT
£62,000 - £85,000

AIR AMBULANCE
£45,000 - £60,000

POLICE
£42,000 - £62,000

In addition to the figures above, company cars, healthcare, pensions, Loss of Licence cover and allowances need to taken into account.

I doubt there are any surprises with the figures above. Obviously pocession of an IR will yield higher earnings but as Police flying does not require one, we are already at a disadvantage with regard earnings ability. It should be noted that the average for a police pilot is only early to mid 40's. The highest figure quoted is the exception and I am reliably informed is being paid to line pilots at a unit in the SE.

Pilots belong to a profession that is more highly scrutinised and routinely checked upon, OPC/LPC, medicals, maintenance approvals etc etc, than any other profession that comes to mind. Police pilots operate routinely at all hours of the day and night, don't have the benefit of a co-pilot to share the aviation oriented workload and frequently have to work like one armed paper hangers when dealing with rapidly changing situations on the ground. I know from the PMs I did receive that there is a feeling of being undervalued, and I think it's proven by the poor response to vacancies that recently became available at Lancashire and North Wales.

NLJ.

Helinut
8th Jun 2007, 23:43
NLJ,

I believe that one of the police contractors offers only around £40K as the basic for a line pilot.

As you mention, the highest rate for police pilot pay is found at one directly employed Unit. They were able to argue for such a high rate of pay when almost 50% of their line pilots left in just a few months. Not surprisingly, since then the turnover rate has been almost zero.
There are some other reasons why that Unit is a special case.

I don't suppose every gash pilot flying a B206 is on £60K+. I suspect that category relates to IR rated ME jockeys, and that there will be many CAT pilots on less than that. I recently was offered (and turned down) £45K for a corporate job (with IR).

I suspect that there is likely to be a big spread in the salaries for any of these groups. We don't discuss salaries candidly very much, and the employers play their cards close to their chests.

The figures certainly make interesting reading. Comments from anyone in these categories would be interesting.

Swamp76
9th Jun 2007, 03:22
I've been following but haven't posted a salary as I have never, nor do I expect to ever, work in the UK. I didn't think the info would be much use to you.

OTOH, I disagree about the idea of playing the cards close to the chest. I have always been very candid when pilots ask me what I am making in this business. The biggest weapon the 'low budget operators' have against us is our own unwillingness to share information.

I remember very well when the base I was working at was taken over by new management (it was in West Africa). Our new offers of employment contained a clause forbidding us from revealing the contents of our salary and renumeration package (offered) to anyone, citing it as privileged information. The majority of us posted them on the bulletin board in the pilot's office. We refused to be used against each other. The base manager nearly had an aneurism when he saw it, but was at least smart enough to walk away. We would not be bullied or play games with side deals. In the end only 1 of the 24 of us (pilots and engineers) accepted the offer.

Senior management here has told me many times in the last few months that "if you can't get a good rate for your helicopter today, you shouldn't be signing the contract". It is the same for us. If we aren't getting what we feel we deserve, we should be working somewhere else where we will.

BTW: as an offshore captain on the AS332L in Canada, my annual salary would buy GBP 51,888.

Max_Chat
13th Jun 2007, 11:44
I wonder how long it will be before all police authorities realise that direct employment is the most cost effective way of managing pilotage in the UK. It seems to me that we all know that money can be saved as well as giving Pilots a fare remuneration package. Indeed, with the successful roll out of the Engineering and Maintenance set up in Suffolk a new dimension is established. Total in house Air Support is a reality. I think PAS, Premiair, Bond etc should take note.

FloaterNorthWest
13th Jun 2007, 12:04
Maxchat,

Are the Eastern Counties pilots directly employed now?

You are right in your logic and everyone knows that it is a cost effective way of employing pilots but.............

One of the main reasons some of the forces I have worked for don't go for the cheaper option is the fear of a pilot going long term sick or not being able to recruit the right pilots. If they pay through the nose for pilots they know that it is not their problem to get pilots,it is the contactors and any shortfalls they can use to beat them with in contract negotiation.

Most directly employed forces still have to have the back-up of contractors for leave relief and sickness. If everyone goes directly employed it may not be worth the contractors maintaining a pool of floaters (no pun intented!) to cover the various aircraft types currently used in the UK. The solution is to have their own pool but who manages it, who has priority and has is it funded?

The answer, which has been around for sometime, is a Home Office/ACPO/Government pilot wing to cover all pilot and training requirements nationally. And I think we know the likelihood of that...........
FNW

helimutt
13th Jun 2007, 12:05
One of the uk offshore operators pays low time(<500hrsTT), CPL(IR) holders, new to the industry, a shade over £34k.

r44flyer
13th Jun 2007, 18:27
An interesting read this thread.

Having recently left university and now looking to take the leap into the industry I have found it difficult to find concrete evidence of rotary salaries in different fields.

I am fortunate enough to have both PPL(A) and PPL(H) (although (H) is not now current), and it has always been a real financial consideration of mine the expense involved in rotary training. Training hours on even the basic R22 can often be twice that of a C152 or similar, or at least 75% higher. My PPL(H) easily cost more than twice what my (A) cost and I did the (H) in 2001.

It's a daunting prospect for new pilots, well it is for me anyway, that (in my, less than fully educated, opinion) there are still the same risks involved with large investment and no guarantee of a job when training in finished as there is in the fixed wing game, as all the wannabe airline pilots will attest. The problem with rotary is the elevated cost of training makes it significantly harder to afford off your own back with the help of a loan.

The rotary industry is something I will be looking into in more detail in the coming months, but as the outlay for fixed wing training is less, it is likely my aviation career will take that path. Unfortunately, given the choice, I'd choose rotary work any day of the week. The versatility and variety (given the right job) is attractive to me, and corporate work would be my goal.

Brilliant Stuff
14th Jun 2007, 09:28
Regain

I think I have to agree with what you are saying. I am civy though who is in it for the quality of the job first and money second.

There are two women Police pilots one in Belfast and one in Surrey.

Thomas coupling
14th Jun 2007, 09:44
Regain, good post!

NLJ
14th Jun 2007, 11:02
Brilliant Stuff,

I too am a "civvy" pilot who is not in it primarily for the money. However I do believe that a person should be paid what he/she is worth and not what the employers can get away with.

We have a couple of shifts coming up that our provider is unable to fill with relief pilotage (have never been keen on the expression "Floater", reminds me of a Peter Kay advert) due to lack of pilots. This will result in our unit being unable to provide cover and having to rely on mutual aid from neighbouring forces. If any more pilots resign to pastures new or fall ill how many more shifts will be lost around the country?

NLJ.

Max_Chat
14th Jun 2007, 14:06
Floater NW, they are not directly employ at present.

Your point about long term sickness or leave relief is not so much of a problem as it may appear. If you have enough freelancers on the books and agreements with other contractors for mutual aid and a couple of employed floaters (I like that expression due to the Peter Kay advert), there should be no problems. In fact what do the bigger outfits do when pilots are short (in supply)? They hire them in.

Regain is right in what he says, Mil Pilots, with the required experience, are not in plentiful supply anymore. They are being offered employment in the mil to 55 in a lot of cases and are being paid bonuses to stay (£100,000 has been mentioned) and they are paid more than £53k. Yes they have the Afghan, Iraq etc merry-go-round (not so merry I know) but it is still a package that a lot are staying in for. Those that are getting out are not the high hours pilots they used to be and internal security is not what it used to be so the experience is not as it was.

All I am saying is that we should be rewarded for the skills we bring to the job. Simple philosophy really.

mitsubishi
14th Jun 2007, 21:08
Hi guys

Pls be careful not to get the wrong end of the stick when comparing your pay to Military salaries.

1. Working to 55 is not guaranteed. In the RN you are more likely to get booted out at 50 (Only a Captain RN works to 55, and that's a rank few of us will gain; and yes, you can work to 55 if you're FTC(A) but how many of us are on that career stream?! Not many!) and as such get a much reduced pension because you haven't achieved the return of service required for a full pension.

2. £100K retention payment (Before immediate 40% TAX, 5 year bond to the service ): Applies to Pilots (£50K) - not observers or navigators, and Sqn Ldr / Lt Cdr rank (£50K). I know many who are eligible for this payment but are turning it down in favour of a better balance of pay / job satisfaction / family time. Many who will get the 100K bonus are staying in anyway (as is often the case with these payments..they're targetted indiscriminately)

3. Many getting out are experienced, and have at least 2000 hrs of solid NVG / night / poor weather / under fire / SAR / deck ops type experience. The 2000 hrs is the golden figure, because it means we have to do a lot less exams to get a CAA Licence.

4. Don't underestimate the Iraq / Afghan factor...these theatres (and the fact that we will be there for years to come) are having a big effect on morale.

The strain on people in the forces (like NHS / education) is huge...police / north sea / SAR in scotland employment is appealing in comparison.

Martin Barclay
14th Jun 2007, 22:19
As a recently qualified CPL(H) I have found getting work almost impossible. As stated earlier in the thread the North Sea operators are short of pilots but refuse to invest in training. I can think f no other profession, doctor, lawyer, bus driver, where you are expected to continue to fund once the initial qualificaion has been gained. A doctor straight from university is as much use a snooze button on a smoke alarm but is getting paid from the first job. We are expected to get a CPL(H) and then find another £30K for an IR. Isn't having spent upwards of £60K enough of a committment? I am doing freelance tour work and pleasure flying aiming to get above the magic 500 hours where a turbine operator might look at me. It is no way to treat a work force.

Brilliant Stuff
14th Jun 2007, 22:31
NLJ you are quite right we should be paid what we are worth though how would that be? I would love another £10.000 but is that enough for what we do? And why aren't we IFR rated when we have got the kit and the word safety is mentioned every third second.

Don't get me wrong though, I love my Job and I think I have the best bobbies in the industry working with me but a couple of quid extra would go a miss considering....

ShyTorque
14th Jun 2007, 23:03
Brilliant Stuff,

Make no mistake; you aren't IR'd simply because neither the provider or the providee wants to pay for it to happen. On joining a police provider, I had a current foreign IR at a time when instrument training was a big discussion point amongst the police. The employer said they weren't interested in getting it converted due to the cost, which wouldn't be recoverable from the contract.

Still haven't been enough marginal VFR/VCF incidents yet to justify a rule change. Call me a cynic if you like, but it's true.

Helinut
14th Jun 2007, 23:43
In fact there are quite a few police pilots who had IRs when they "joined". The employers cared so little about this iissue that they have not even kept the pilots with existing IRs current (in general).

From conversations I have had, I know that a number of them have lost their IRs now, so that they would have to re-do them (not just do a renewal retest). It almost feels like deliberate de-skilling to make those pilots less employable outside police aviation.

Brilliant Stuff
15th Jun 2007, 08:33
Well you say that there is not the money, but for some of us it's not a great deal to have us rated on the machine. Our DUEO is of the opinion if the aircraft has got the kit why not use it.

And by 2010 all Police aircraft are supposed to have an autopilot for safer operations so why not IR?

I stand to be corrected on the above.


My company promised me they would not let my IR lapse, they still have two years to come through for me.

anonythemouse
15th Jun 2007, 12:01
I think that Floater Northwest had a point. Maybe the Home Office ought to be setting a framework or baseline for Police/HEMS Pilot salaries across the country with enough flexibility for Police Forces to 'add to the basic package' for geographical differences. Lets face it Forces are paying contractors up to £100,000 per pilot per year! A lot of us would consider half of that a bloody good pay rise!! National pay structure for Direct Employ and National Register of Freelancers that forces can select from should they end up needing to cover shifts? A unit paying the above rate for 4 pilots on a 24hrs duty basis could afford to go direct employ (at a decent wage offer) with an additional pilot allowing a built in buffer for leave, short term sickness etc and still come out of it with change in their pockets. It would also leave the Chief Pilot time to do his job and be a chief amongst his indians.

Max_Chat
15th Jun 2007, 12:26
Maybe the Home Office ought to be setting a framework or baseline for Police/HEMS Pilot salaries


Now let me see......would they make a Horlicks out of that as well????

Helinut
15th Jun 2007, 12:37
anonythemouse,

You are correct in what you say. However, one of the reasons why this topic started is that direct employed police pilots are NOT getting that decent salary that you suggest (with one notable exception).

Droopy
15th Jun 2007, 15:29
Helinut

I was one of those who was promised that it would not be allowed to expire but of course they fibbed...but I was quietly expecting that anyway. On the positive side, the IR doesn't completely have to be redone - exams again followed by renewal test, all a pain and an expense but not the staggering cost of the original thing.

Staticdroop
15th Jun 2007, 15:52
I remember from a conference attended in the dim and not so distant past that the subject of central control by the FO was discused. The FO will not get involved as they take AOU/ASU to be a constabulary/commercial decision and will not get involved, saves a few pounds. Look around the country and see how many constabularies have a Air Wing how many are 24 hour some are day only and 4 days a week.

Brilliant Stuff
15th Jun 2007, 19:33
Well I will have to have a word with them and go and get it organised.:ok:

Queen O' the Skies
16th Jun 2007, 12:45
I have watched this thread with interest, and sense a groundswell of opinion that we are not paid enough for the experience and skills that we bring to the job. This seems to be supported by the poor response to a couple of recent adverts for jobs for direct employed posts, and by the almost constant advertising in Flight by at least one of the major contractors.
Unfortunately, employers, be they Police authorities, or commercial air operators, will pay the minimum they can get away with, and furthermore, we have seen that they are not averse to moving the experience goalposts if they feel they need to. But, the pool is drying up despite the widened goalmouth: the self improver must make a massive financial commitment if he/she is to fulfil the experience requirements, and the military leaver is tempted away from the rotary world by the airlines’ salaries and Ts and Cs. Police/HEMS operators are relying on the culture and ethos found in many ex military pilots who seem almost thankful for having a job, especially one where they can go to sleep in their own bed most nights if they choose to, and where they can fly machinery that is almost state-of-the-art and where spares are usually available (yes, even the 902). But don’t forget – we work long hours, usually right up to the FTL limits, frequently including 12 hour nights shifts; we fly single pilot (apart from Virgin HEMS), in the worst weather, and usually without the benefit of an IR, but we are required to be able to cope with an inadvertent IMC encounter with the minimum training. There are no co-pilot slots for learning these skills on the job, so they have to be bought in
Bertie Thruster got it right way back at post #5 – we must learn from what happened in the North Sea; the only way we can change our lot is by collective bargaining, and a concerted effort of professionally led negotiations backed up by the facts from a benchmarking study comparing our skills, experience and responsibilities with other commercial pilots, and this must be supported by a workforce of pilots united behind the negotiators, and not afraid to put their money where their mouths are. If you feel this is a bit reminiscent of British Leyland and the NCB in the late 70s early 80s, then I am sorry, but I think you are wrong. BALPA helped rewrite the helicopter salary rulebook with CHC and then Bristows 10 years ago, we must use their skills and experience for our sector of the industry, or be resigned to wringing our hands and saying, “We must be worth more than this” on web forums and in crew rooms the length and breadth of the country.
Despite the current financial squeeze on funding, the public demands access to Air Ambulance services and the charities seem to have very little difficulty fundraising. Similarly, it will be a very brave Police Authority that gets rid of its helicopter solely due to increased pilotage costs. If you really want the financial rewards that our skills and experience are worth then get organised, get recognised, and give your company council the support it needs to run a really successful campaign.

Sulley
16th Jun 2007, 13:39
I couldn't agree more,however it's obvious you've never dealt with the Police !!!

Logic and reason have no place,neither does opinion, if it differs from the Police one.:ugh:

Tunafish
16th Jun 2007, 16:27
Excellent post Queen O` the Skies I agree its time for BALBA to help us onshore guys out. 44K with IR cheap labour or what!:sad: our company has had several go in the last 6 months others to follow shortly i suspect. We have no say on leave or rosters often doing upto 200hrs duty in 28days , hard graft.
Without Union help we will continue to get shafted!:mad:

Bertie Thruster
16th Jun 2007, 17:26
http://www.balpa.org.uk/intranet/Join-BALPA/index.htm

Max_Chat
16th Jun 2007, 18:23
Queen, you make some interesting points. Do you not think though, that the lack of interest in adverts by the bigger players and that of the North Wales Police etc, would have given these employers a bit of a clue?

That said what have they done to entice applicants? Nothing, they continue to advertise with little or no joy, but fail to understand the problem.

I am not sure that BALPA would be able to wake these sleeping dinosaurs. I would be pleased if that were so, but without fear of contradiction, I feel not. I think, as you said, the goal posts would be shifted and in addition inexperienced and unsuitable pilots would fill the places. A disaster in the making.

God I sound like a miserable old git. Maybe I am? :(

SilsoeSid
16th Jun 2007, 18:52
Nice post QotS, I especially liked the bit where you said,

"If you really want the financial rewards that our skills and experience are worth then get organised, get recognised, and give your company council the support it needs to run a really successful campaign."

Will that be the Company Council of the Company that you are having to leave in order to be directly employed?
How will we fare against a force saving even more money after ending the contractors contract, by seeing how much they can get away with on pilots salaries! I can just see the interest!

I feel a different kettle of fish is on the worktop when they might have to deal with a Police Authority, especially one with the, "not being held to ransom", "they are getting paid more than before so should be happy" and a 'like or or lump it' attitude.

It's all summed up when the observers log the crew on at the start of a duty period......."....and Pilot number 4."

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/bicycle.jpg

http://tieguy.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/iamnotanumber.jpg
I'll get my cycle clips!

SilsoeSid
16th Jun 2007, 20:45
Should we just lump it and crack on?

Considering who dictates the wages, and the words of one being, "I will not be held to ransom", it would seem that is the only option!

Who dictates the minimum requirements and what are the absolute minimums someone will take? I know for a fact that somewhere any twin hours requirement is now out the window!

#4

Helinut
16th Jun 2007, 22:13
It seems to me to be a mess.

There are remarkable variations in police pilots' Ts & Cs despite the job being pretty much the same in all UK Units. The salaries for police line pilots vary from 34K to mid 60Ks, as far as I can tell. This is for pretty much the same job, and is a massive spread. How can that be justified? It isn't of course, that is just the way it is and no one raises it. The same applied to the benefits too.

As is mentioned in the last post, police pilots are being employed with no twin time (beyond the type rating course). The normal minimum night time is not complied with either.

I am afraid that I share Silsoe Sid's less than optimistic view that the standards will drop - they already have. The link between the lowering of standards and some unfortunate incident will not be automatic nor happen immediately, but it may well occur.

There may be some mileage in getting organised, but there is no guarantee.

In some respects we are our own worst enemy. Many of us cannot do anything else apart from fly (in the sense that we have no other saleable qualifications). Some of us have over time got fed up and left police work. To date though, this has not caused a problem for the employer, because there has been a steady supply of others wanting to follow. Maybe this has dried up a bit at present. A little bird suggested to me recently that the flow of retiring miltary pilots may soon be increasing again. Maybe the employers are just waiting for that?

Those who do leave are the ones prepared to drag themsleves out of the pit. For the "civvies" this is nothing new - they almost certainly paid obscene amounts of their own money to get the licences/ratings to date. Additional ratings are just another one (albeit pretty expensive if it is the IR).

The police financial budget cuts don't help either. They may not act directly, but they set a downward trend to the overall picture.

Indfly
17th Jun 2007, 19:22
Hi Folks

Just thought of starting a salary ready reckoner....to help everyone out there get a better deal in life(the best deal is already there-flying).

I guess the format could be:

Region:India
Aircraft:Bell 412/407
Salary+perks:6500USD


Cheers and hope it sure helps

Big-Windy
17th Jun 2007, 21:01
Just to stir the pot a little because I can't resist it.

This is great! Nice to see some attitude at last. Gone are the tones of complacency. At last, thank goodness, they're being replaced by a gentle lean towards militancy. Damn right too! We have every right to be disgruntled, even angry. Let's keep talking ourselves up and our terms down. Let's keep reminding our employers and ourselves of our true value. If the job looks easy to them, gently remind them it's because we made it look easy! That's right, we're skilled professionals and deserve to be paid as such. Let's consider the possibility of some kind of united representation through BALPA and let's keep the T&Cs issue at the top of the agenda.

:E

Someone, somewhere will have to offer a significant improvement, the rest will inevitably follow.

Max_Chat
18th Jun 2007, 07:40
Infly, Is that per month?

Good Man In Africa
18th Jun 2007, 08:19
Indfly,

By ready reckoner do you mean a sort of comparison thread ? If so:

Region: Nigeria
Aircraft: Bell 412
Salary+ perks: US$15,000 per month.

Hope this helps.

Indfly
18th Jun 2007, 14:17
Max

Yes,per month plus perks of free accom,food,transportation

Indfly
18th Jun 2007, 14:24
Hi FlungDung

Houses and cost of living depends on the city/town that you are at.but taking Metros like Mumbai/Delhi.....you are looking at 750-900USD for a fully furnished flat or a 1785USD/month for a 1 room service aprtment with 2-3 meals thrown in.

But I normally try to push this aspect as a perk for free.

SilsoeSid
28th Jun 2007, 15:58
Seems that the next unit to go directly employed will be paying their line pilots less than £42k.
Not bad considering they are all, both 902 and 135 rated! :ugh:

As Arthur Daley might say “My word is my bond Terry.”
But as no-one in the unit is called Terry, the word was no bond!!

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g11/silsoesid/arthurdaleypilots.jpg

Brom
28th Jun 2007, 16:19
I believe the pay agreement that at least one north sea operator has with the pilot workforce runs out in a couple of years time. Already some pilots believe that they are falling behind in the salary stakes (when compared to the fixed wing benchmark) and will be keen to see a big improvement in salaries.
A united workforce is (IMHO) the only way to achieve a sensible hike in pay. Difficult enough to achieve in the offshore industry, let alone in the general aviation sector.

Helinut
28th Jun 2007, 16:38
If SilsoeSid is right, that is nothing short of an insult. I wonder what the pilots concerned will do though.

FayeDeck
28th Jun 2007, 17:46
Silsoe is alllllllways right my friend..........apart from Forward Autorotation P of F on yor 6 monthly eh mate!!:ok:

SilsoeSid
28th Jun 2007, 17:52
I wonder what the pilots concerned will do though.

Initially, I believe, wait and see if another 'promise' comes to fruition which may see an increase, at best, to match the N.Wales vacancy!
However once bitten...!
I think they will perhaps find this forum post useful 'Need breath holding techniques please!!!!!!! ' (http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediving-training-techniques/36750-need-breath-holding-techniques-please.html)

SilsoeSid
28th Jun 2007, 17:59
Silsoe is alllllllways right my friend..........apart from Forward Autorotation P of F on yor 6 monthly eh mate!!

WTF is a 6 monthly? Is that similar to an OPC?
Besides, PoF was always my good subject, perhaps I can help you by donating £2.50 a day to the NHS for your future treatment!

FayeDeck
28th Jun 2007, 18:45
Mate, its like an OPC but with someone who cant hack it in the real world any more:E

yme
30th Jun 2007, 21:46
So who do we know with 902 and 135?

Big-Windy
2nd Jul 2007, 20:00
Not many with both types read PPrune it seems. There are a few of us about.

Why yoo ask, Glasshopper?

yme
4th Jul 2007, 08:42
"Seems that the next unit to go directly employed will be paying their line pilots less than £42k.
Not bad considering they are all, both 902 and 135 rated"!

Just wondering where the information came from and if it was somewhere to the east that SS was talking about.:hmm:

Big-Windy
4th Jul 2007, 19:54
Might be somewhere in the middle of England?

But I'm only going on rumour.

Thud_and_Blunder
4th Jul 2007, 21:14
I can think of at least 8 people who're qualified on the 902 and 135, and I certainly don't know everyone in the industry.

Asking around the business as my short-term contract came to an end recently, I learned that one company recently advertising for floaters offers 41K basic plus 5K floater-allowance and 4K for use of your car. Another mainly-Air Amb operator was similar but has its full floater-quota, while the one I've ended up working for pays a lot less. I could've opted for the freelance way of life, which is a very healthy sector at the moment, but I lack the necessary entrepreneurial spirit. However, the quality of life I enjoy more than amply compensates for the lower salary, hence the decision.

anonythemouse
9th Jul 2007, 11:46
The problem with getting a 'Company Council' set up to fight our corner is that there are a lot of companies involved as well as PA's. Add to that freelancers and there is a classic divide and conquer situation. We have people doing the same job at the same units on different T&C's dependant on when they joined and what the company could get away with! If it was as easy as getting everyone to join BALPA and allowing them to speak with one voice to all of the employers then it would have happened years ago. The industry is fragmented and the employers like it that way. For anyone who work for PAs, has there been a marked improvemnt to your T&C's since the CC was set up? You may not be getting as much as you would like but did the CC make a difference?

Brilliant Stuff
9th Jul 2007, 12:35
anonythemouse you hit the nail on the head

anonythemouse
10th Jul 2007, 10:42
Just spotted a 'Spulling Mistook' above. Meant to ask "PAS" crews about the CC's. If PA crews want to offer the difference with their lot it would help as well.:)

Have just had a look at the following thread on Rotorheads:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=283273

Follow thr link and take a look; It looks like the Ozzies have an 'across the board' system similar to what I was getting at. And it allows for flexibilty!

How transparent would that be??

Bertie Thruster
10th Jul 2007, 15:01
We have people doing the same job at the same units on different T&C's dependant on when they joined and what the company could get away with!


At PAS all T&C's are BALPA negotiated and are identical across the pilot work force. The BALPA negotiated pay scale is related to years in the company and is published for all PAS pilots to see. New pilots are not enticed in on individual, potentially devisive, deals. They used to be. That's one of the main reasons we joined BALPA.


anonythemouse: why don't you do what we did? That's the reason why nothing has happened yet!

anonythemouse
10th Jul 2007, 20:10
Bertie, getting the BALPA recognition is something that could be done with aviation service providers, albeit that we are spread so thin but how would a PA crew get the PA to recognise BALPA. Is it really that simple? Join as individuals, turn up at the UEO's office one day and say, speak to BALPA for the next pay rise? Not meaning to be flippant so please don't fire back. Can't even remember if I told BALPA who I worked for when I joined, could they, without breaching Data Protection, give an idea just how many pilots in any particular company are BALPA members?

The first step is always the hardest and to stick your head above the parapit on your lonesome to shout the rallying cry is defo one hell of a hard thing to get your head around!

handysnaks
10th Jul 2007, 20:19
Your Company needs to have 21 or over employees to start off with.
Then for collective bargaining I think you need to have over 50% off the workforce in the union. This website:
ACAS (http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=771)
May give you a few pointers.

Thomas coupling
10th Jul 2007, 21:34
You'll be expected to join Unison if you become a police staff employee. It's certainly not compulsory by any means, but if negotiations are required, better the union who represent thousands of staff than a union that represent 3 or 4 pilots:ooh: And the quickest way to alienate yourself after gaining direct employment status, is to threaten your employer with unions:=

The onshore industry is fragmented, always has been and always will be. It'll never change, or if it was to change it would take a generation. Concentrate on what you can change which invariably means your little empire you work for now. Get directly employed and chip away at the machinery quietly. Educate the police in the art of aviation. If you can't or won't go for DE, then do what happened at PAS - it seems to have worked there:D

Bearintheair
11th Jul 2007, 08:20
Not quite true TC, sussex have recognised BALPA as a representative body for pilots.

onehunglow
13th Jul 2007, 08:55
The hardworking highly experienced pilots in the 'front line' of UK police and HEMS units are getting shafted now even more than usual!
The reasons for the appalling payscales of UK parapublic pilots has long been discussed on this forum. Now that professional workforce is getting yet another kick in the stomach from the greedy shareholders.
All the main police/hems contracting companies are presently suffering the consequencies of their universally pathetic pay awards over the last few years.
Can they find new pilots? Can they hell!
Fresh pilots with the experience required by the customers are simply going elsewhere.
What does this mean?
1.The incumbent dedicated workforce (on low pay) has been squeezed dry.
2.Management pilots (on management pay) are running around everywhere plugging gaps in the rosters.
3. The few freelance floaters around can if they like charge what they want.(£600+)
4. Companies with corporate sectors are using those pilots (on corporate pay) to plug gaps.
5. Companies with sister offshore sectors can second those pilots (on offshore rates) to fill in on the new contracts starting in the buoyant hems market.
How about simply biting the bullet, forget your bubbly at the 'shareholders' this year and start paying the going rate?
The worm (who so far, in a most professional and dedicated way, has never considered turning) is just starting to wriggle a bit!

Big-Windy
13th Jul 2007, 19:55
I don't think that joining a union should be used as a "threat" TC. At least, it shouldn't be seen in that light. I think "being part of a responsible, commercially aware organisation that has its members interests at heart" would be more appropriate.

I hope it never happens but in this litigious society, I quite like the idea of someone in London with a big fat chequebook, willing and able to fight my corner if needs be.

cavertonmanagement
14th Jul 2007, 16:13
More of you pilots concerned with low salaries in UK, you should be considering coming to our warm, friendly country of Nigeria. Our company, the world centre of helicopter excellence offers the toppest salaries in the world, thanks to the kind generosity of daddy and myself. You see, we have both been to top English universities and have economical degrees, so we know the true value of a contented, well-paid work force. Naturally, you can't expect a top salary with these ridiculous even time rosters these foolish American companies pay, but 4 months on followed by a whole month of leave is a small price to pay for having the experience of working for our company to put on your CV. In addition to our generous salaries and paid leave, we offer toppest class luxury housing in a superb, modern apartment block with both water and a generator to supply electricity when there are people at home. Once your family have seen the photographs they will surely want to come and join you here, and it's well known that we Nigerians love children (there's been a lot of publicity about that on Sky TV lately). VIP airline uniforms are carefull hand made by some of Nigeria's toppest tailors using modern machinery. A special footwear allowance is paid to ensure that you complete the fashion icon look with a shinny new pair of pointy shoes every single year. With our salary safely in your Nigerian bank account you'll also surely want to purchase some of those Tom Cruse shinny lens sunglasses so all the girls will know you're a top aviator and be falling over themselfs to share a Gordons Spark with you at one of the Lagos hot nite spots like Where Not or even luxury Ikeja hot spots like Metro bar.

You'll fly one of our carefully chosen, fantastically maintained world beating fleet of Jumbolinos, soon to be joined by one of the world's largest fleets of S92s for our world beating, highly publisized, 24 hour shuttle operation between the nation's commercial center, Victoria Island and the international airport. We also now have vacancies for Twinned Ootter pilots for our world beating new expansion into luxury aeroplane travel.

No need to worry about your safety, once the robbers know you work for daddy you'll be left well alone as every Nigerian knows better than to make him mad. Should you have the misfortune to be mugged or hijacked by mistake, you'll have the comfort of knowing that your job will probably still be waiting for you if you return and your salary will resume immediately you have your freedom. If during this unfortunate happening you fall ill or get injured, no need to worry as our medical insurance will ensure your admittance to one of our many world centres of medical excellence to be found all over Lagos and even some other cities.

If you're an Arsenal supporter be sure to mention that on your CV and daddy will so love you for it he'll welcome you in person. So, put away your rainy English summer blues and come out to the inviting, sunny paradise right now :ok:

cougar77
15th Jul 2007, 07:45
[QUOTE] but with the superb qualifications from universities daddy and I have, none even come close. [QUOTE] You see, we have both been to top English universities and have economical degrees, [QUOTE]
Which one may this be ??? Must be really "economical".

[QUOTE]We also have beautiful mountain resorts with such modern facilities as cabel car, [QUOTE]
That's a new one !!!

[QUOTE]Our salaries are absolutely the toppest in the business and our superb 4/1 roster gives even more time for revilling in the delights of the African giant. No need to jump, when you work for us it will be the last job you'll ever want. Come on out and join the world-beating time right now, now :ok:[QUOTE] Naturally, you can't expect a top salary with these ridiculous even time rosters these foolish American companies pay,[QUOTE]If you're an Arsenal supporter be sure to mention that on your CV and daddy will so love you for it he'll welcome you in person. So, put away your rainy English summer blues and come out to the inviting, sunny paradise right now[QUOTE]

It seems from your post in "CHC vs Bristow" and "Helicopter Pilot's Salaries and a few other post" that it is an open invitation for applications. Could you let all Ppruners know your "toppest' salary. I just hope that the vacancies have not been filled due to a long queue.

Whirlygig
15th Jul 2007, 07:59
Cougar77, if I didn't know any better, I'd've said that you took Cavertonmanagement's post seriously!!!! :}

Cheers

Whirls

cougar77
15th Jul 2007, 11:41
Whirlygig,

Can't be too serious here at the time ..... have to loosen up once in a while.

I am happy where i am with a good company and a great bunch of people. Almost ended up in Nigeria though.

Cheers

Tunafish
18th Jul 2007, 10:59
Excellent post onehunglow they are starting to wriggle. Most of the larger players are starting to negociate what they call pay deals:ugh:. It is time to paid for the quality and expertise we bring as professionals to the job, with the best safety record in the world.

Collectively we need to push for better PAY / LEAVE / BASE FACILITIES and stop bending over and taking it up th A*SE !!!

Paramedic earns 28k ish for working 14 days in 28 but gets 41DAYS LEAVE!
Pilot normally starts 38-41k ish working 20 days in 28 but only gets 25 Days leave, thanks for letting us work weekends and bank holidays and rewarding us for it.

Think about it guys before you sign that next pay deal and it will stop that pain in your rear!!

BALPA BALPA BALPA BALPA BALPA BALPA BALPA BALPA BALPA BALPA

serf
26th Jul 2007, 21:10
Sussex ad in Flight - line pilot £48 and a bit!

FloaterNorthWest
26th Jul 2007, 21:56
The Essex job also looks a step in the right direction.

FNW

Thomas coupling
26th Jul 2007, 22:07
Excellent news, well done the SE consortium:D
Now I wonder who will fill the CP job....Hmmmm:rolleyes:

BRASSEMUP
27th Jul 2007, 17:49
Getting better! :)

wallsend
27th Jul 2007, 18:56
... and what about the recent rumour about Bond (onshore) offering an 8% rise next April?

Bertie Thruster
27th Jul 2007, 20:33
16% over 3 years.

8%,4%,4%.

thats what we have heard.

BRASSEMUP
28th Jul 2007, 07:44
What will that take the average wage too? High 40's?

wallsend
28th Jul 2007, 17:48
Yes, about £48.5K. There's another rumour that at least one pilot from a competitor is about to move to Bond. Whether it is JUST the money is open to question, but I imagine it won't hurt.

TiPwEiGhT
28th Jul 2007, 22:08
Out of interest what would a chief pilot of a small onshore operator get in the UK in relation to a chief pilot of Bond, Bristows etc. TiP:ouch:

wallsend
30th Jul 2007, 11:09
Do you mean COMPANY Chief Pilot. Some onshore operators also have UNIT CPs, either HEMS or Police.

ugosfriend
27th Jun 2008, 09:51
anyone knows what's the average monthly pay for a pilot (captain and co-pilot) working in north sea off-shore:\

papa68
28th Jun 2008, 00:08
Ladies & gents,

It makes for quite interesting reading when comparing UK conditions vs those we now enjoy downunder.

In the past, it has always been my assertion that pilots based in the UK were on substantially more than us, but now I'm not so sure and given the cost of living in Oz and the strength of the Aussie $, I would imagine our salaries are extremely competitive.

For everyones information, a year 8 Capt with BHA (Bristow Helicopters Aust) will be on approx AUD165,000 which is about GBP79,000 by my calculations from Sep 08. In fact, given the work available here, the introduction of new players and aircraft, I'd say Oz would represent a good move for those looking for sunnier climes.

Better yet, BHA sends you back to the UK once every two years for LOFT which, given the weather you enjoy over there, is more than enough. ;)

P68:O

smickey
28th Jun 2008, 04:04
Flying in Australia is becoming quite appealing based on the advertised salaries. However, are there immigration hurdles that make this option a show stopper for non-aussies.....

PO dust devil
28th Jun 2008, 07:38
Probably similar hurdles that Aussies face when they apply for jobs internationally ;)