Night Rating/FAA Licence issued on the basis of JAA Licence

[Blueskyrich]

Hi all,
Was out in the US a few weeks back for some hour building and am returning next month to finish off (in the Philadelphia area - great place, lots to see and I can highly recommend it - PM if you want details!!).
Whilst out there, I went through the procedure of having a FAA licence issued on the basis of my JAA PPL, which was a very simple and pain-free process. Incidentally, my new and shiny FAA credit-card stlye licence arrived in the post last week.
Anyway, whilst out there, I discovered that there is no night rating for private pilots in the US and that you can fly at night using just the standard private licence. Whilst I would have loved to extend the time I could fly each day, I didn't fly at night as I didn't have the UK rating and obviously, had no experience.
Now, before I go back in three weeks, I hope to have finished my night rating but wont have had time to have the CAA add the rating to my licence. So, my question is - can I fly at night in the US next time I go back? My FAA licence is issued on the basis of my JAA licence, but at that time, the JAA licence wont have the night rating attached to it, even though I'll have done the flying. Any ideas?!
Thanks,
Bluesky

[Keygrip]

a) if it's not issued you can't use it (just like in the UK).

b) there's no such thing as a (new) night rating (so you haven't got one)

[dublinpilot]

You FAA licence can not give you more privlidges than you have on your UK one. As you won't have a night qualification on your UK licence, I find it difficult to understand how you could have night privlidges on your piggy back FAA licence.

This answer is based on common sense rather than an indepth understanding of FAA regulation.

[Blueskyrich]

Thanks for the reply Keygrip :ok:

I assumed that may have been the case, but I just wanted to see what others thought.

Its strange - I now have a card saying that I have an FAA Private Pilot's Licence (which normally, would allow flight at night without further training). However, this is issued on the basis of my JAA licence (which without the appropriate rating attached, doesn't allow flight at night).

Ah well, I'll just have to see if I can get the rating popped onto my licence before I go. As ever with me thought, time is tight!!

Thanks again
Bluesky

[nouseforaname]

I had this same type of thing but with regard to a turbine restriction.

Basically it's an iterpretation. On the back of your new lisence it will say something like ....issued on the basis of and only valid when...etc. and then it says ...all limitations and restrictions on the UK liscence apply. This is the bit that stops you doing that.

What you should do is sit the really simple FAA private written exam, then do a flight test (as all your JAR PPL syallbus requirements are v. similar to those in the FAA private) and then you will have a stand alone FAA private liscence.

You will find that a useful piece of kit if you decide to do additional FAA ratings. PM if you want some more info as i've recently done this....

[BackPacker]

Alternatively, you could also see if you can find an FAA instructor and do the required night training, FAA style, to add that to your FAA PPL independently of what the CAA/JAA license says. With a bit of luck the hours you have in your logbook will count towards either the solo or dual requirements and you only need a few circuits before being signed off.

[Blueskyrich]

Good idea that, but one snag - I think I'd then have to get a US visa as I was doing something "towards the issue of a licence or additional rating".

Think I'm going to have to get the flying done and see if I can get to Gatwick before I go to have the rating added. I've already spoken to them and they've confirmed that it can be done on the old same-day service. As it happens, I'm spending the bank-holiday weekend on the south coast so it may be a go-er. Actually, I've got come back on the Monday evening for work, so I could see if they'll allow the girlfriend to do the honours for me...:}

[drauk]

The CAA will do certain things, such as add certain ratings and/or renewals, on the same day if you visit them at Gatwick. It is probably the case for the night qualification. So, do the necessary hours for it now in the UK, then make a day trip to Gatwick. Problem solved.

[Blueskyrich]

Indeed, the crossover between JAA and FAA is very confusing.

I didn't complete a BFR during my last visit as an enquiry by club instructor (who was doing my checkout) to the local FSDO resulted in him saying that as long as the JAA licence was good, so was the FAA one. I did find this surprising and I did query it, as my understanding, due to lots of feedback from this very forum ( :ok: ) from folks who had been there, done that etc. had said that I'd need the BFR.

On that basis, the first thing I'm doing on arrival next time is getting the BFR done. Thankfully, I flew with an instructor for around 7hrs last time, so I hope it should be a fairly easy process this time around.

Now, to open a can of worms (however, I think I will be wrong), would the completion of a BFR allow night flight (without the rating being attached to the JAA licence) as the FAA licence has been made current (and that is the law of the air in the US), or would the over-riding fact that it has been issued on the basis of my JAA one mean that I'm still stuck to JAA restrictions?

Can anyone here guess that I'm trying to get out of a 400-mile roundtrip to Gatwick here?

Thanks,
Bluesky

[Blueskyrich]

Thanks for the heads-up SoCal.

Before I left for the first visit, I bought the books needed and studied them with the very intention of completing the BFR on arrival. Like I said, I was very surprised when, after contact with the FSDO, I was told I was good to go. Needless to say, that is something I'm going to put right immediately when heading back next month.

Clearly though, more reading in terms of FAA regulations wouldn't go amiss as obviously, I'm not totally clear on what is what in certain areas.

The one thing I was crystal clear on, was the need to keep the FAA card, the foreign licence and the photo ID on me at all times, as one without the others is no use at all.

Best course of action here I think is to get the JAA licence updated with the night rating, head to the US, get the BFR completed and as night requirements appear slightly higher over there, get up with the instructor for however long it takes to ensure everything tallies.

Thanks again
Bluesky

[Keygrip]

Best course of action here I think is to get the JAA licence updated with the night rating,

Bluesky - there is no :mad: night RATING anymore. It's a night QUALIFICATION.

It's not just pedantics - they are different animals, are treated in a different way, and have different values (none of which are relevant to the title of this thread).

[englishal]

Does it matter? By getting a NQ onto the JAA ticket, then the night restriction on the FAA based on ticket no longer applies.

I'd just sit the FAA PPL check ride and not bother with the JAR NQ, because it also works both ways - if you can fly at night on your FAA certificate, you can also fly a G reg at night in the UK without a NQ as the FAA privileges carry over without formality.

[Blueskyrich]

Bluesky - there is no night RATING anymore. It's a night QUALIFICATION.

It's not just pedantics - they are different animals, are treated in a different way, and have different values (none of which are relevant to the title of this thread).

Keygrip,

As someone who has only been in this game for a relatively short while, I was unaware of the transition that has taken place from the old notion of a night rating, to the situation where one attains a night qualification. In any instance, it can be confusing when the two terms are so freely mixed by those in the industry. For instance, many schools seem to use a mix of both terms in their online literature - for the unaware, they can appear to be one and the same thing.

For the ease of future searches, the title of the thread has been now amended. Also, I now understand by what you mean in your first post in this thread. It's a shame you couldn't get across what you wanted to say with a little more clarity and little less agression though - I'm not a mindreader.

However, that said, my thanks to one and all for their input into the thread - it's been an extremely useful exercise for me and I've learnt a great deal. I hope it can also be of use to others as well.

Many thanks,
Blueskyrich

[IO540]

I would suggest that people forget about piggyback licenses. It's building a house of cards.

To get an FAA piggyback, you have to visit the USA anyway.

Any of the following

- loss of UK medical
- expiry of UK 2 year renewal
- expiry of JAA 5 year license
- anything else that voids your UK/JAA license

will trash your FAA license too.

May as well get a full FAA PPL. It can be done in the UK too - email me for contacts - and that avoids the visa and hanging about at the US embassy. The FAA PPL written is not trivial (contrary to what some say); it is the UK PPL content, with all the crap removed, with some stuff added (like navaid navigation) and all rolled up into 1 exam, and then you have the oral exam which can be tough. Then you have a checkride which is substantially tougher than the UK PPL one (I've done both). You also need night flying experience which is in excess of what you need to get the JAA night qualification and this catches out a lot of people.

But you end up with an FAA PPL which is valid for life, and the FAA medicals are 50% of the price of the CAA ones, for a similar content (I wonder why??).

[dublinpilot]

In my opinion, a full FAA PPL is overkill for doing a few hours flying in the states every couple of years. Why bother with the cost of two medicals, for little extra benefit?

dp

[Keygrip]

Bluesky - you are 100% correct - and it is only through banging my head against the wall for so long, in trying to get people to "get it right", that I gave up with the nice guy approach and took the opportunity to bite.

I'm sorry if it offended you - but I'm pleased if it made even one person sit up and ask the question "Well what is the difference then?".

If you see a school actually advertising a night rating, then I think you can be assured that they have little interest in the QUALITY of training and lots of interest in taking your money for giving you training.

[englishal]

In my opinion, a full FAA PPL is overkill for doing a few hours flying in the states every couple of years. Why bother with the cost of two medicals, for little extra benefit?
I get mine done at the same time as the JAR one. It costs me a tenner for a Class 2, and is valid for 3 years. IF I let my JAA licence or medical lapse, I'd still be good to go on the FAA certificate. I nearly lost my JAA SEP rating due to bad weather and the silly 1 hour flight with an instructor requirement last time (despite 50 or so SEP hours logged in those 12 months). I got it within 2 days as the weather was too bad for a PPL student and I was willing to go, but almost resigned myself to just let it lapse and be done with the JAA as I was still legal to fly on my FAA certificate.

[slim_slag]

If flying in the US on an 'on the basis of' certificate you need to get the BFR done before you can PIC. That includes an hour of ground minimum, so it is unlikely that the FAR/AIM hasn't been opened. As always, it's up to the instructor to decide if you are safe to be let loose in the flying school's airplane. Some are tough, some aren't and that applies to people with FAA certificates too.

I still think you need TSA clearance if you take the PP-ASEL in the UK so the only thing you are avoiding is the visa trip to London. Anybody got a definitive on that?

[IO540]

I still think you need TSA clearance if you take the PP-ASEL in the UK so the only thing you are avoiding is the visa trip to London. Anybody got a definitive on that?

I concur and have plenty of material for reference. Also the FAA CPL (and other stuff) doesn't need TSA. Only the PPL and IR need it.

Which in itself is ironic as somebody with a Mongolian license can apply for a FAA based on cert and be given it without any TSA approval. Not picking on Mongolia - just an example - could be anywhere with a ICAO compliant license. I would expect that at some time the TSA/FAA will review that loophole and determine if anybody applying for a FAA 'based on' cert should have to get TSA approval.

The real Q is, SoCal, what does this actually achieve?

AFAIK the whole TSA business for FAA flight training was brought in purely because the 9/11 hijackers learnt in the USA. Of course, to hijack an airliner you need an FAA license so fingerprinting everybody learning to fly under FAA will prevent another 9/11...

It's like the UK Hungerford and Dunblane mass shootings. Both were done with legal guns. They resulted in massive clampdowns on legal gun access. Had they been done with illegal guns (which in the UK reportedly outnumber legal guns many times, especially if you want a semi or full automatic) this would not have happened.

I don't think the TSA stuff achieves anything whatsoever. If a Mongolian PPL (or ATPL, why not? - are all suicide cases too thick to get an ATPL?) gets onto the flight deck, kills the pilots, and flies the thing into a building, what's different?

Which is not to say that the TSA will not do exactly as you suggest - it just won't actually do anything. It will just play into the hands of EASA trying to screw FAA flight in Europe, by making it just an extra bit more inconvenient to obtain FAA licenses/ratings.

Anyway, as I've said many times, I think piggybacks are a waste of time. If you have the opportunity to acquire a real lifetime-valid PPL/CPL/IR from the FAA, go and get it. Nobody (except the FAA) can take it away from you. Any ICAO state can in theory prevent you (its citizen) from exercising its privileges within its airspace but this is very rare and once you cease to meet those requirements (airspace, or citizenship) you can stick your finger up to them and carry on flying with it. There aren't many freedoms left in this game!!