Respect and gratitude for the military

[John Blakeley]

Taxying in at Anchorage last week the flight attendant drew attention to a US Army SNCO in battle fatigues who was returning home from service in Iraq and suggested a round of applause - which was duly given with some cheering added. Saw a similar thing on American Eagle in Wisconsin last year, and I gather it happens on many flights, with fellow pax buying the military pax drinks, for example. My hotel has many military guests all proudly wearing their uniforms. A US Air Force Master Sergeant returning early to his family got 2-3 minutes national coverage on CNN earlier today.

There is just as much, if not more, criticism of the wars with the politicians and in the Press and TV over here, but even in the media the military are generally treated with respect and where there are "anti" military stories, eg on civilian casualties, they do not seem to attract the same level of negative journalism we so often see in the UK, even though it is possible to detect the Pentagon spin on many stories.

Why the difference? Are our military usually directly associated with the unpopular decisions of their political masters in a way they are not in the USA? Does the direct link of the NG units to their communities mean that there is a better understanding of and sympathy for the military "lot"? Are the UK military, led by the MOD Press Office, now part of the culture of spin in the UK? Have we gone too far in trying to keep our military out of the public gaze, perhaps because MOD would not like some of their stories to get more attention than they already do - often thanks to PPRuNer's and the like.

What, please, are your views?

[Pontius Navigator]

John, you make an interesting point however it was not always thus. I believe returning Vietnam vets were not accorded such acclaim. I met one who had totally gone off his fellow countrymen because of his treatment post-V.

I think that was a traumatic time for them.

This time round we are talking both full-time and reservists and not conscripts. That too may be a difference.

Why not here? Maybe because we have been keeping an anti-terrorist low profile for 40 years that our public never see servicement except when they go to displays and then you are talking to the ocnverted.

35 mean anything John? JMNB?

[splitbrain]

Americans seem generally to be far more patriotic than their British counterparts and their citizens have a much greater sense of national identity. 911 hurt them deeply and, presumably, they see their servicemen as fighting to 'show the perpetrators who'se boss' for want of a better experession.
We on the other hand appear completely confused about who we are, what we represent, and what is right and wrong. We are engaged in conflict with people who many of our countrymen see as brothers and allies. As far as many are concerned it is the USA who is the enemy, not the arab states we are currently deployed amongst. Furthermore, the forces are seen as part of the 'establishment' which many people despise.
Add all of those things together and its hardly surprising that when one goes around town in uniform one is met, not with approving looks, but scowls, muttered oaths and even direct hostility.

[John Blakeley]

I think that both Chutley and PN make excellent points and I am grateful to have a full copy of Kipling's verse at last. Again talking to people here I think that Kipling's comments applied to US service personnel as well in the old days, and I agree about Vietnam vets' treatment, although I believe that views on the Vets' treatment (not the war) have changed over the years - perhaps it is the genuine links to the local communities (as the UK Army used to enjoy a lot more than it does today), the fact that they no longer have an unfair system for conscription and that the US can afford things like State NGs and ANGs (who can, and do, provide massive asasistance to the civil community as well) that keeps the military more in a sympathetic public eye. However, I would still like to see the day when a similar situation could exist in the UK - pie in the sky perhaps.

PN - sorry I am still too many time zones out of kilter for the 35 connection to trigger a brain cell - how about a PM to save my embarassment!

[Pontius Navigator]

John, on checking the spelling, misident, sorry.

[ericferret]

I remember walking into my favourite watering hole in 1975 with my regular drinking mates after being told that we were on the way to Northern Ireland.

The immediate reaction of the locals was to offer to hide us.

We politely had to point out that as professional soldiers it was what we were paid for and kind as their genuine offer was, we were unable to accept.

We all returned after a safe tour to a glorious welcome and didn't need to buy a drink all night. I have little recollection of how the evening ended.

I raise a glass today to Hannes and Irene the proprietors of the Lohne Eck and their many German customers.

[nigegilb]

JB, check out F street station while you are there, great halibut and chowder. People in Britain do not appreciate the sacrifices servicemen make. I don't know why, but listening to Blair the other day the BBC made it sound like he personally won the Kosovo war and Sierra Leone and Iraq was something he sincerely believed in and it was a terribly difficult decision to send British servicemen to war, don't you know. The media made no attempt to explain the sacrifices made by UK armed forces and the enormous debt that former CND Blair and his marxist mates owe them, for the foreign policy successes of the Blair years.

The cult of personality is based on celebrity and weasel presidential stylists like Blair, with little of interest in self-sacrifice. To be honest, I sometimes wonder why anyone bothers to stay in the services nowadays. Very few people care.

[ShyTorque]

Myself and some colleagues were on a civvy scheduled flight during GW1, heading for a heli refresher course sim slot in Norway.

The senior flight attendant (senior being the operative word) took a bit of a shine and we were sent on our way with a big hug and a carrier bag half full of miniatures. The strong hint of an offer of something else during her night stopover was not taken up (I suspected she might have seen it as some way of returning the compliment).

[22/7 Master]

I grew up in the Falklands,
My name is the Sea King Four,
The forgotten Fleet Air Arm Cousin I,
Not quite Dark Blue, Green or Crab Velour.

Used thru the eighties in my main role,
Collecting mail for the master race,
Daylight SAR on a carrier,
Leaving Egg on Pinger’s Face.

Then in the early Nineties,
Came the big Gulf War,
I hung around on a love boat,
With Nurses by the Score.

They Said ‘No troops who went to Iraq’,
Will be Kurdistan bound,
It applied not to the Junglies,
And in Kurdistan I could be found.

At the same time I was in Ulster,
Which you could still call it back then,
By the time they finally let me go,
The years that past were ten.

And at the time (again),
In Bosnia I could be found,
And it was another 6 years
Before I was Blighty bound.

But before I even left there,
On OCEAN I was parked
I was Tony Blair’s ‘force for good’.
For I ran each time he barked.

In OCEAN we toured the Cesspits*
No budget for a run ashore,
No one wants 2000 marines about,
So we just hit Freetown’s barren shore.

* Insert Nicagagura/Honduras/Turkey/Sierra Leone/Sierra Leone (again) as required.

Then Saddam ‘dissed’ Barbara Bush again,
By God, or Allah, a mistake,
It was off to hit the Gulf again,
But the WMD they all proved fake.

It must be said I’ve been under the knife,
Almost every single year,
But my gearbox is still the same,
And so is my lifting gear.

So I’ll have to give up woodbines,
Before I join the ‘Stan.
But thank you Mr Carson,
I am your greatest fan.

So as you remember the Falklands,
Remember also this,
I still scramble on orders,
Even when Tony Blair, or Gordon now, still extract the pi$$.

Hollow praise is not for I,
‘Or Tommy and Jack did good’,
Just the funds to do my job,
And, oh, some decent pay for my boys, if you could.

So in another ten years,
When I'm on (my last) death bed,
If you just say I did my job,
I'll be happy, enough said.

[Roadster280]

I think splitbrain has it in post #4.

The US hadn't suffered a meaningful attack on its mainland soil for over a century, and the impact of the WTC attacks was a major shock. I was (then UK based) in Chicago around 25th Sept 2001. I didn't know where to put my face. I felt like I had wandered into a funeral cortege. There were US flags EVERYWHERE. The sleeping giant truly had been awoken.

Some years on, and I now live in the US. I'm not American, but as a former soldier, I feel pride in seeing the way that ordinary Americans show respect and gratitude for the military. Not just US either. I've lost count of the beers I've been bought when my background came out, and I've been out of the mob 6 years. Hell, I feel the gratitude myself. After all, these brave men and women are keeping me as safe as they can. What's wrong with a sense of national pride in what has been fought for, and vigorously defended?

I see nothing wrong whatsoever. Bravo.

How about the UK? Well, when the electorate tolerate London councils who prevent the flying of the Union Flag, as it "might offend the community", when there's people with British passports supporting Pakistan at Lord's, when the 7/7 bombers held British passports, you're on the road to annihilation of being "British". Change in a sensible manner is to be applauded, but change in such a dramatic manner will destroy the values and ethos of the UK, and the military will be the last upholders of what has gone before.

So it's the US of A for me, partly because I'm frankly disgusted at the mess the UK is in, and the treatment of the military and defence issues by the UK people.

As it goes, I'm writing this in Dorset where I happen to be on a business trip, in a bar full of white middle class people. Until these same people can summon the moral fibre to deal with the erosion of British values, instead of worrying how they're going to pay their mortgages, or how long they'll wait on the NHS, then you're fcuked.

A few hours in the company of Delta Airlines on Sunday will take me to my home. Can't wait for the immigration officer to say "welcome back". I'll say "thanks for doing your job & keeping me safe". Bring it on.

[jockspice]

22/7 Master

Would you mind if I used your ditty as a poster at my current workplace? There are a few non FAA brethren who could use the education!:ok: :ok:

[Big Tudor]

I think PN raises a valid point about the British forces being hidden away from view during the 80's & 90's. Most of my service career was spent not being able to travel in uniform (although the sight of hundreds of young men with short hair cuts and identical kit bags on Newark North Gate station was hardly inconspicuous!:rolleyes: ).
And I don't think it has anything to do with the contribution the US forces make to the local community, there are plenty of examples of UK servicemen helping communities; missing climbers & children, Boscastle, Chichester, etc.

I do think there was a period in the 70's and 80's when a number of British servicemen didn't help themselves with their general social behaviour. A number of establishments were near to towns and villages where unemployment or low paid work was a major factor (not the only one). The sight of servicemen coming into the local bars & clubs and brandishing (at the time) fistfulls of pound notes didn't really go down well with the locals. Fighting was a regular occurence and local (and in some cases national) press were quick to point the finger of blame at the troops. The reputation earned during that period has stuck, apart from brief periods post Falklands and GW1. Anybody else remember the indignation from certain members of the City during the post GW1 parades in London. "How dare they close off our streets for some dirty little tommy's." :hmm:

[C130 Techie]

It is interesting to note that British service personnel are also treated with a deal of respect when visiting the US. From personal experience even the immigration staff at airports are generally more amenable once you are identified as military.

Back in the UK on the odd occasion that I visit Tescos etc in uniform on the way home from work I often feel that I am being looked at as though I am a piece of dirt.

In the US I have never seen a gang of teenagers abuse a serviceman as he walks down the street. In the UK its a very different story.

I recently had an altercation with a bus driver whilst driving home from work. When I got out of the car and the bus driver saw my uniform his immediate response was 'Ah you're a typical RAF w****r'. It just led me to wonder where that perception of RAF people had come from.

[Flik Roll]

The support for the US Armed forces is a lot more noticeable - they're all for supporting their troops rather than rallying to pull them out; many cars have the magnetic 'support our troops' ribbon stuck on the back. People over there are proud of their guys and girls.

As said above, if you get caught in a public place in your uniform in the UK, you get the looks and stares or just plain old abuse.#

Our country needs a good kick up the behind and a change of tune as far as the military is concerned. More funding for the mil, more support, and less New Labour please.

[Spit the Dog]

Was recently on rare trip to the 'states' with a crew having lunch and a few beers in a local bar. Very well dressed gentleman sat at far end of bar reading a copy of 'Washington Post' asked the barman where we were from as he had over-heard our accents. Once we reluctantly, as usual, declared we were visiting British servicemen, he made his apologies and left as he had to return to work. We sat for a few more hours 'socialising' and eventually called for the bill. "Bill Sir?" barman replied, "There is no bill!". The stranger had insisted that all our tab be placed on his usual account. Can you imagine for one minute that happening in TGI Fridays in Leicester Square. ?

[Pureteenlard]

As said above, if you get caught in a public place in your uniform in the UK, you get the looks and stares or just plain old abuse

Yep, you get stared at. Hardly surprising since seeing a member of HM armed forces, in uniform, on the street is unusual. Apart from the odd military convoy on the M6 or if you live in Aldershot, the general public doesn't see forces personel in uniform. When they do, they stare. Hell they stare at me if I go into tescos wearing a hi-viz vest.

I grew up in Tamworth. Every saturday night outside Manhattons night-club there was a landrover. Inside the landrover were two MPs. Every saturday they had to drag some drunken, fighting mad squaddy (or squaddies) out of the club and back to the barracks in Whittington.
Every saturday.
Without fail.
No mystery why the locals equated squaddies with trouble, is there?

As for RAF personel in uniform I can honestly say that, outside of a visit to RIAT, I have never seen one, in public.

If it's any consolation, the people I know and work with consider that the armed forces do a good job in inpossible circumstances with less kit than they should have.
Intelligent people can tell the difference between the military and government policy. Stupid people? Well who cares what sun readers think?

[tacr2man]

I think we need to split the generalisation re UK public appreciation of our forces, I find that it is an age related reaction;
The older generation i.e over 65 seem very supportive of the military, this seems to drop with the age of the person.
Another factor is the PC (pink and cuddly) indoctrinated chattering classes . Then you have a whole strata of society? who no longer have respect for anyone including themselves. By the time you get this far there are not that many left, but you do come across them .
Luckily going by my daughter and her colleagues (ATC) there are still quite a few who still want to serve, but as I have asked her are the others in the UK and ''Britishness'' (whats left of it) still worth ''protecting :confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

Pureteenlard,

When you do 'see' the RAF in public they often wear CS95 and people automatically assume Army.

I often see Army in CS95 at service areas or road side food stalls; neither the best showcase for public display.

[ericferret]

So the scruffy RAF types standing around the fast food stalls are assumed to be army.

Result!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You don't have to go far back to the time to the period when we regularly had RAF personnel doing their shopping in town. They had so many variations in clothing that to use the word uniform was a misnomer.

The best way to determine if the camouflaged troops are airforce or army is by eye.

If the wearer looks like a sack of sh*te with an ill fitting uniform thats airforce. If the uniform fits well thats army.

[Big Bear]

I was staying in a hotel recently prior to going to a secret test facility in West Wales. I went to reception in my uniform to check out and the lady behind the counter handed me the post to take. Once she realised her mistake she was extremely apologetic however, the simple fact is that so few people are used to seeing the military in uniform in public.

Unfortunately, some of the previous posts are quite correct in stating that we 'hid away' during the 70s and 80s. The point that they haven't raised is that at that time the armed forces were twice the size that they are now. There have been so many cutbacks that it is only in places such as RAF Lincolnshire that RAF personnel wearing uniform in public is a common sight. However, the number of service personnel I come across who are incorrectly dressed (ie with out headress) nipping into Tescos or the like really does annoy me, it is almost as if they are embarrassed being seen in their uniform. If you are going to wear uniform in public it should be worn correctly and with pride.

The simple fact is the US armed forces are more visable to their nation especially given the number of citizens who serve in their reserve forces.

[TOPBUNKER]

Here's an idea...
Bin hats with working dress. Working uniform does change, after all, to echo civilian attire - witness the ever-changing RAF woolen pullover.

So, to save the cringing embarrassment of hat-on/hat-off moments, not to mention the potential FOD hazard, bin the things.

Save a few pennies into the bargain.

[Big Bear]

Yer but, no but, I dont believe you just said that.....


Working uniform does change, after all, to echo civilian attire


Why don't we all start wearing hoodies - no fod hazard there

The whole point of wearing uniform is to distinguish you from those that don't while at the same time identifying clearly which organisation you belong to (DPM 'you can't see me' suit excepted of course).

[Hoveronly]

Obviously the answer is to get all RAF servicemen to wear a postmans uniform! Whilst you're there, give them a bike as well! :ok:

[TOPBUNKER]

Let's consider for a moment who wear their hats whist actually WORKING.
The RAF Police - that fine body of men spring to mind first!

[FHA]

A few really good points raised here.
I've just got back from the States and the prevailing attitude is still support the troops, 100%, despite what crap decisions the Lords and Masters make. The American public now seem to be making the distinction between the actual people who commit to serve their country and the decision makers who put them in harms way.

I was at public events in the last 3 weeks where the host would make the crowd show their appreciation for the people of the USA and UK military.

What C130 Techie said strikes a chord. I remember being treated like royalty by the American public and being extended every privilege they possibly could, whilst being treated like s#!t back home.

[MReyn24050]

Big Bear stated:- Unfortunately, some of the previous posts are quite correct in stating that we 'hid away' during the 70s and 80s.
The reason for this fact was down to security as a result of the Northern Ireland situation. Prior to the the late 1960s many enlisted Service personnel would wear uniform when travelling home on leave and more often than not this would assist them in obtaining lifts to wherever they were travelling to. As the NI situation got worse orders were given that personnel should not wear uniform when travelling on public transport etc. I recall that at one time similar orders were given for Service personnel not to wear uniform, or to wear a civillian coat or sweater over the service dress when travelling to and from work, in BAOR at that time this was a somewhat bizarre order as the car one was travelling in had British Forces Germany registration plates which readily identified the driver as a member,or dependant of a member, of the British Military Forces.

[Pontius Navigator]

Some good ideas here

TopBunker said: Bin hats with working dress. Working uniform does change, after all, to echo civilian attire - witness the ever-changing RAF woolen pulloven

Was a time at the main operational HQ, name slips my mind, when the rule was no hats outside. This saved an awful lot of arm waving and saved wg cdrs embarrassment if they miscounted and saluted another wg cdr.

Ascension only the 3 sqn ldrs, the major, the 2.5 and the staish wore hats.
Then of course I remember when we adopted woolly pulleys vice the bomber jacket, even M&S started selling a civvie version, but times move on.

Big Bear said: Why don't we all start wearing hoodies - no fod hazard there

Another cracking idea. Especially if they have a front pouch, saves wearing gloves.

wearing uniform is to distinguish you from those that don't while at the same time identifying clearly which organisation you belong to

Very true. We could wear the appropriate service colour and have EAW badges etc woven in to help espirit de corps.

Hoveronly to get all RAF servicemen to wear a postmans uniform! Whilst you're there, give them a bike as well

This is only getting better. Very green. Shorts are a good idea too with global warming and bike riding. But better than the positie's pants, how about those lovely posing pouches used by the PEd staff?

And to really keep up with changing fashion, how about we all wear that ubiquitous European fashion - the polo shirt. As these are so cheap we could have sqn ones, flight ones, informal ones with unit zaps etc. Why, we could even have heritage type ones with wings embroidered on.

They would all go with my Royal Air Force baseball cap. Oh, b:mad: r, we started off with no hats. Still, back to front would keep the sun off my neck.:)

Oh, we already have polo shirts with wings?

[Big Tudor]

how about those lovely posing pouches used by the PEd staff?

Better option is the Ron Hill traksters as worn by the Mountain Rescue Teams PN. Very attractive to the ladies, as I recall :ok: .

[Pontius Navigator]

Big Tudor, in these days of EO I thought the shorts might appeal to a wider audience :} if you get my meaning.

However in a non-PC way, I think the ladies fill the RH rather well too. :)

[TANTALLON]

I was serving in a NATO post in Denmark in the mid-90s. One of my very good friends a USAF major was retiring on the American "up or out" system. About 20 of us plus wives were invited to his retirement ceremony in the HQ's theatre. The place was decked out with the stars and stripes and at one lecturn, another major read out a valedictory letter from Bill Clinton (obviously the computer-generated variety). At another lecturn the senior US officer (a colonel) then delivered a very warm speech covering my mate's achievements and then conveyed the heartfelt gratutude of the American people. He was then presented with what I think the Americans call a shadow box, an oak-framed glass case containing the Stars and Stripes in one half and a montage of his badges of rank and medals on the other. Over the top maybe, but it brought a lump to my throat I can tell you.
Having recently retired after 33 years and endured the ignominy of surrendering my 1250 to a less than interested SAC, I reflected on that experience in Denmark. It brought home to me the genuine respect the American people have for their military and the utter disdain which certain sectors of the British public have for ours.

[Wader2]

Once, at Lossie, I was filling up at the nearest petrol station to the camp, a BP station, and someone thought I was a BP tanker driver.

Our camouflage is so :mad: good that we can pass for invisible.

How about nice prominent BUMPER stickers on our cars so the guards can just wave us through or bring back the FLY NAVY, SAIL AIR FORCE, or xxxx ARMY

Only problem with that is the Air Force don't have any boats any more.

[soddim]

I think one of our problems in UK is that the civilian population has become too used to the almost complete lack of discipline both personal and collective. I am often criticised for being 'far too military' My current riposte is that it is the only public service that still works in this country.

[WhiteOvies]

Currently residing in RAF Lincolnshire, an RN uniform causes confusion and puzzlement. I have been mistaken for everything from a traffic warden to a stripper to an American service person!? Whilst in the States was mistaken for an airline pilot.....

On a flight back from the US on Mr Branson's finest the chief air hostess did pass her personal thanks to the UK Servicemen on board, although that may have been to do with the lads keeping her company at the back on the overnight flight!:cool:

Recently, whilst walking through the town (with appropriate headwear!) received a 'Hello Sailor!' as the only form of recognition, at least it was the right service!:ugh:

Soddim - have also been described as 'too military' although I took it as a complement. :hmm:

[Phil_R]

I tried many times to write up my feelings on this in a way that wouldn't cause offence, but I couldn't.

We stare because you are unknown; rare; usually invisible. This is not an unreasonable reaction; nor is the reason for it our fault.

If you were ever to have a recruitment problem, it would be because the forces are a complete unknown into which to throw yourself so irrevocably. Most schoolchildren have never exchanged a word with a military officer. Ever.

Far from criticising the idea of painting the logo on the side of the aircraft, as has happened elsewhere on this forum, you should be painting the logo as big and bright as you can on more or less every available surface, encouraging people to be seen in uniform, etc., however unseemly it may appear. You're competing with X-boxes and sports events, like it or not.

Phil

[scribbler614]

Britain as a whole may have abandoned respect, but those who think the UK news media single out the armed forces for a hard time need a reality check.
The forces - the brave boys and girls as opposed to political masters - are just about the one group left today who still get the benefit of the doubt and automatic sympathy and respect when most news stories crop up. Rightly so, in my view, but the same is no longer true for: the clergy (too many perverts), minor Royals (spongers), doctors (paid too much), teachers (woolly-minded liberal whiners), politicians (edited for reasons of space). I may be generalising ever-so-slightly, but you get my drift.
One or two examples: recent Iraqi court martial. Big media row was over political pressure to put officers in the dock and 'how-dare-they-charge-them?', rather than how dare the Army close ranks after beating an Iraqi to death in custody which, as the judge observed, somebody did.
Forces accommodation - media on board and up in arms over cr6p mouldy homes.
Armoured vehicles - lots of media criticism over too many of our brave boys and girls driving around Basra in Snatch, as well as endless coverage of equipment cuts, shortages and inadequacies.
Op awards for gallantry always get big media coverage across the board, again quite rightly.
Current ops: when journalists are allowed anywhere near you on the frontline in hot and sandy places, resulting coverage is for the most part positive and sympathetic and shows you doing a good job in v tricky conditions.
And just occasionally, let's not forget, some serviceman or woman does something slightly less than impressive. Ipods, anyone?
If you feel the punter in the street doesn't love you enough, you may be right. But don't blame the media. We don't have it in for you.

[Wader2]

Phil_R, I know what you mean.

Many years ago, in Piccadilly station (Manchester) I saw a serviceman smartly turned out in a pale green best uniform. I had not seen the like before and asked him what the uniform was.

It is the only time when I have even seen an American soldier in a dress uniform.

OTOH, not some many years ago, I was accosted in Lincoln High Street. Naturally I ignored the shout. No chance, she ran after me and caught my arm and pressed a £5 note in my hand.

A day or so previously she had been crossing the street to put some money in the RAFA collection tin when the collector packed up and was gone. She asked me to pass the money on to RAF, which I did.

OK, it was Lincoln in RAF Lincolnshire, but at least someone recognised and trusted a serviceman.

[Widger]

Colleague of mine went to get his car "hand washed" in West Drayton and no sooner had he pulled up, the staff all did a runner, thinking he was an immigration officer.

White shirt, black tie and gold stripes!

Still, can be quite funny when you tell the pizza delivery guy that you are HM Revenue and Customs!

[Wader2]

Scribbler, very true. As the media guys put it, servicemen Good, MOD Bad.

OTOH there are journalists out there looking for the 'taxpayer's money' story - Harriers in Spain, Dominie in Czech Rep (?), Matelot's in Tehran (:}).

[Maufe]

Forgive me for posting here as I have never had any connection with the services.

I have read this thread through all the way and still don't quite get it - when we come in contact how exactly do you want me to treat you?

I can obviously only speak for myself but I would treat you in the same way as I would treat anyone else I met for the first time that is to say I work on on the assumption that you are a normal reasonably courteous human beings until proved otherwise.

I am perfectly happy to acknowledge that to the best of my knowledge most service personnel do a highly professional job and do it very well given the equipment they have to work with. I do not let the memory of the bunch of close cropped rowdy youths who kicked in nearly every panel of my car without provocation one Saturday night in Warminster many years ago colour my attitude, there are always some that give a bad name to a vast majority of well behaved people.

[soddim]

Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

But you're forgiven because you treat us just like you treat anyone else you meet for the first time.

Nice of you to forgive the Paras - I wouldn't argue with them either.

[Maufe]

Sorry, Soddim I can't quite grasp the point you are making whether it be sarcastic or merely patronising.

I assume because you post the forum rule you could be suggesting that I should keep out. This is of course fair enough its just that the premise of the thread seems to me that you military people are not respected enough by people such as myself. I therefore suggest it is reasonable of me to break the posting rules just once to ask just how you think we should treat you.

I have no idea or care if the thugs who attacked my car were Paras or not, that is irrelevent.

[splitbrain]

I have read this thread through all the way and still don't quite get it - when we come in contact how exactly do you want me to treat you?

I believe the OP was commenting on how differently members of the forces are viewed in the USA to how they are in the UK. I don't think he/she was asking to be feted by everyone they meet.
To add to my previous comment, I think Americans tend to 'enthuse' about things like this much more so than their British counterparts who are far more cynical and 'matter of fact' about the role people play and the jobs they do. Americans openly gush over their boys doing a great job fighting against those terrorists who brought down the twin towers, whilst Brits appear to take the view 'well, its their job, they signed up to do it and they get paid for it'.
Its an interesting cultural difference IMHO.

[Sunray Minor]

I suppose suppose we in the UK we maybe view this (http://www.ichblog.eu/index.php?option=com_seyret&task=videodirectlink&id=543) or this (http://www.antiwar.com/blog/2007/02/04/why-they-hate-us-some-examples/) in slightly more of a negative light than they do in the US.

Not saying these are examples of the way our forces necessarily behave, but in the US this sort of footage seems to be accepted with little more than a shrug of the shoulders, while here in the UK it is very much frowned upon and becomes the gerneralised picture of what is being done in our name.

[Wader2]

Maufe, I would treat you in the same way as I would treat anyone else I met for the first time that is to say I work on on the assumption that you are a normal reasonably courteous human beings until proved otherwise.

In the British way this is probably no more than we could expect or even want. However you may recall the WREN that was asked to leave the Sainsbury in Chester because her Combat Soldier 95 uniform was causing distress to another customer.

There are other instances where civilians are not just apathetic but actually agressive. Even a macho thing - duff a squaddie - must be tougher.

As for your car, that is was smashed up might now be considered 'normal for Britain.' As it was in Warminster it was hardly surprising that it was by squaddies. If it was in Liverpool is would as likely have been Everton or City hooligans, or Twickenham it might have been rugger b:mad:rs.

[Wader2]

I wonder what the US take is on uniform or, to be more precise, wearing Army surplus or wearing Army style fashion items partuclarly by men.

In UK you can buy any variety of military style camouflage trousers, hats, handbags etc, for desert, urban, temperate or whatever. You can also buy US, German, Dutch, British surplus and wear it in any scruffy, or stylish, non-military way. A general clue is that the trousers, shirt, jacket and boots do not match. You also see people wearing USAF style or USAF bomber jackets. The fashion for wearing NBC clothing seems to have declined.

I would argue that prevalence of surplus or military style clothing worn by people today distracts from the soldier, sailor or airman when they appear in uniform in public today.

What is the situation in the US? Is there an after market for Army surplus? Is there a fashion for Army style?

[WhiteOvies]

Wader, see what you're getting at but not sure on all the details of US High street fashion.;) There is definately a US market for army surplus (picked myself up a fantastic and V cheap Goretex on last trip:}) but not sure how widespread this is, the shop I was in was very close to large USMC base.

I don't particularly remember seeing a lot of civilians wearing combats though, as I would walking around any town/city centre in the UK. Camo has been in and out of fashion for years and one company has even made its entire reputation based on garments made in various camo. I believe there is even a book out about it. Ironic isn't it that with CS95 the forces are almost fashionable but aren't allowed to wear in public? Or that when they do they 'upset' people. As an aside, whilst at Heathrow, I saw a chap with a T shirt with a silhouette of an RPG on it. The tag line, spelt out in sparkly writing said 'RPG 7 - That should do it'. Considering what the guys and girls on the ground are doing I found this distasteful but didn't ask the bloke wearing it to leave the airport.:*

[topgas]

A general clue is that the trousers, shirt, jacket and boots do not match.


Rumour has it that there is a Corps in the British Army where, if two officers turn up on parade in matching uniforms, the junior one is expected to go and change into something else.

[Wader2]

Never happen in the Air Force. We can never get two bit of kit to match any time.

[OFBSLF]

I wonder what the US take is on uniform or, to be more precise, wearing Army surplus or wearing Army style fashion items partuclarly by men.I don't see many people wearing army surplus here in the Boston area. I'll see it sometimes at the gun club. Personally, I think it looks a bit foolish if you weren't actually in the armed forces at some time.

I've got plenty of camo clothing that I wear when hunting (US usage of this term -- I believe you lot use the term "stalking"), but that's not surplus and I don't wear when not hunting.

Non-surplus urban-camo pants have been somewhat in fashion lately and I do see them now and then.

[Wader2]

OFBSL, are, picking up fashions from us. :)

After the Second World War army khaki battle dress was a frequent sight on building sites. They could either have been ex-army or surplus, or both.

For our field sports it is most unlikely that one would wear Army surplus :)

We have hunting too: usually wear pink or black. For stalking or shooting tweeds are de rigeur with possibly a barbour jacket.

For coarser pursuits, such as hare coursing you may well see DPM pants.

We mostly see camouflage clothing worn in urban danger zones, like shopping centres (malls).

[GPMG]

Quote Eric Ferret "

The best way to determine if the camouflaged troops are airforce or army is by eye.

If the wearer looks like a sack of sh*te with an ill fitting uniform thats airforce. If the uniform fits well thats army. "


You forgot to mention that another way of spotting a Pongo is that he smells, sits down in the galley (sorry cookhouse) still covered in cam cream and wearing webbing and has the manners of a Pikey.
Oh and do your bloody drawstrings up.

[Wader2]

Actually Eric Ferret this is not what I see.

At an Army HQ recently the only officer with a correctly fitted and creased set of DPM was a sqn ldr, and an Air Trafficer at that. The brown jobs uniforms may have fitted once. They were certainly clean though. So clean that most were not camouflaged at all.

And of course there was the hair cut. One was like Capt Freidrickson with horse hair wig and one with out. :}

[ericferret]

Thought I wasn't going to catch anything there for a bit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Windbag]

Ah, but you know what they say:

Blues are for ironin'

Greens are for dying in!:}

[seekayess]

Blues are for ironin'

Greens are for dying in!

I had heard it slightly different:

Blues are for dying FOR
Greens are for dying in! :}