CX policy on hand flying their aircraft.

[LOTW]

What is CX's policy on hand flying? Does their policy approve of turning off the autopilot allowing the flying pilot to hand flying the A/C? Or must the autopilot must be engaged beginning at 1000 feet AGL after takeoff to your minimums for landing?

Thx,

LOTW

[alohajec]

Cathay isn't as hard-core as everyone thinks it is. Essentially you can hand-fly the aircraft anytime you want except when certain company criteria necessitate automation (eg. autoland, etc). We can engage the autopilot after takeoff as low as 200' AGL.

Taken directly from our policy manual, from day 1, Cathay stresses the following statement about Automation which is sound advice in today's era of Fifi-The-Wonderjet airplanes:

"It is Cathay Pacific Airways policy to regard Automation as a tool to be used, but not blindly relied upon. At all times, flight crew must be aware of what automation is doing, and if not understood, or not requested, reversion to basic modes of operation must be made immediately without analysis or delay. Trainers must ensure that all CPA flight crew are taught with emphasis how to quickly revert to basic modes when necessary. In the man-machine interface, man is still in charge."

Sounds like it was written by Bill Boeing himself.

Aloha :cool:

[Mr. Bloggs]

Just don't do it on a check!

There was a bloke at CX that put the autopilot in at 300', whether you wanted it or not. Blokes nowadays have more confidence in their own ability and the First Officers.

We are taught to manage the autopilot, not fly.:{

[rjmore]

As with any airline I imagine there is the schoolhouse way and then the real way. Where I am now, it is accepted that the training way really doesn't work well on the line but in that wonderful box with daddy FAA looking at us, we have to do it that way.

[sabenaboy]

Time to revive this old thead!

I started a topic in the tech forum about the airlines' policy about the use of automation during flight. (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/453212-your-airlines-policy-about-use-automation-during-flight.html)

In reply #91 (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/453212-your-airlines-policy-about-use-automation-during-flight-5.html#post6516679) someone said: Anyone else also hear about Cathay? They have now forbidden it and every landing is (wait for it)..... AUTOLAND only!!!
Surely that can't be true? So I did a search in the Fragrant Harbour forum and found this old topic and decided to ask here what exactly the policy at Cathay is?

I read Alohajec's reply in post #2 "It is Cathay Pacific Airways policy to regard Automation as a tool to be used, but not blindly relied upon. At all times, flight crew must be aware of what automation is doing, and if not understood, or not requested, reversion to basic modes of operation must be made immediately without analysis or delay. Trainers must ensure that all CPA flight crew are taught with emphasis how to quickly revert to basic modes when necessary. In the man-machine interface, man is still in charge"

However that says nothing about the day-to-day policy in Cathay. On the contrary, it rather sounds as if manual flying is rather exceptional at Cathay.

To me hand flying means that when there's not a good reason not to (weather, fatigue, workload...) a pilot can switch off A/P, A/T and F/D's at any time during descent below 10 000' and hand fly the ship to a landing by RAW data.

Is that still possible/allowed/encouraged at Cathay?

[Loopdeloop]

Exceptional is quite generous but you're on the right lines. I'd certainly agree that our manual flying here at CX is above average!

[sabenaboy]

I'm sorry, Loopdeloop, I'm not sure how I should interpret your answer or the excerpt from your manual. Would you care to elaborate, please?

Is it still possible/allowed/encouraged at Cathay to disconnect the automatics (A/P, A/T AND F/D) during descent at let's say 10 000 ft?

[nitpicker330]

Yes mate you can do that if you want to in appropriate conditions.....

When you engage the AP or disengage the AP is up to the PF considering the operational challenges etc....

[fly123456]

When I joined CX, on my third sector, after I had flown the aircraft manually until clean, I was subsequently told by the training captain: "you should put the AP earlier on!"
How wrong was I to think LUFUS was aimed at training i.e. our flying skills.

So no, not much manual flying here, but it is still authorized, conditions permitting.

[cxorcist]

2 things to keep in mind if you are applying for the cadet SO program:

- SOs do not fly at all unless at cruise with the Captain, and in those cases you can be assured that the AP is on.

- if you are coming to CX to hand fly, you are coming for the WRONG reason!

[sabenaboy]

2 things to keep in mind if you are applying for the cadet SO program:

- SOs do not fly at all unless at cruise with the Captain, and in those cases you can be assured that the AP is on.

- if you are coming to CX to hand fly, you are coming for the WRONG reason!

Ooh, ooh, chill down, cxorcist, I'm not looking for a new job. I'm happy in my current job (LHS A320 with a lot of manual flying :ok:)

Maybe if CX would offer me a position as DEC on 330 or 340 AND double my current salary, I would consider it...

Until the day that happens I won't take your place :cool:

Cheers,
Sabenaboy

[broadband circuit]

Maybe if CX would offer me a position as DEC on 330 or 340 AND double my current salary, I would consider it...

Don't even joke about that. If double your current salary is less than a current captain (ok, highly unlikely, but humour me for 5 seconds), then CX will have someone working out how to get you & others in as DECs, using such scams as "ASL", or "AirHK", or "HK Freighter on Oasis Scales", thus screwing our FOs & SOs even more.

There is ample literature out there detailing the damage that these and other scams have done to many pilots' careers.

[Kitsune]

...or, lest we forget, 'B' scales...:cool:

[cxorcist]

Sabenaboy,

It says a lot about you that you would even write such a thing. WTFO???

My comments were directed towards the wannabe lurkers whom may find the prospects of hand flying a CX widebody enticing. I can say unequivocally that it is not exciting beyond the first 6 months. For new cadet SOs, that may be 5-6 years into their pathetically underpaid CX "careers". Worth the wait? Definitely not! Go become a doctor, dentist, or lawyer instead.

Questions?

CXorcist

[iceman50]

Sabena BOY

Says it all really.:rolleyes:

Were you turned down by CX by any chance.

Would love to see one of your RNAV arrivals / departures with no AP, A/THR and FD's.

By the way, we are all EXCEPTIONAL here at CX.:p

[sabenaboy]

Mmmh, cxorcist and iceman50, are you always that touchy or is it just today?

I think it's time to retreat from this thread when people start aiming at the writer instead of what's written. Iceman50, if you had a very smart nickname yourself perhaps you'd be in a position to ridicule other nicknames (like cxorcist :O )

Were you turned down by CX by any chance.

No, my dear, never did apply to cx and not about to either. Anyway, if you represent the average cx employee (I'm sure you don't), it would probably not be much fun working for cx anyway!

Over and out! :cool:

[elgringo]

in 9 years as F/O i have only once been told to engage a/p after t/o at about 500 agl. checker wanted to see me "manage automation". when i am given sector i hand fly until, at a minimum clean. this, depending on weight, can be anywhere from 3000 feet to 7000 feet (plus or minus a bit for all you pedantic types). usually on approach sine I am so shagged from not sleeping and flying 12 or so hours, landing at 5 am, i leave a/p in until 1000 feet or runway in sight/cleared to land, makes life easier in the event of G/A.

If I ever do a regional flight a/p off at 10,000.

It is what I do, have always done in previous life and a t CX. never been criticized, critiqued, tormented about it.

But that is me and my experience here...

i am an underachiever among overachievers..

[iceman50]

Sabenaboy

Not touchy, just cannot abide w*lly waving posers. If you have NO interest in CX, how we fly our A/C is not your concern.

OUT!

[nitpicker330]

Elgringo………..yep sounds about par for the course:ok: