What will CX Pilots ask for?

[cpdude]

American Airlines pilots ask for 30.5 pct pay hike! (http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articlehybrid.aspx?storyID=urn:newsml:reuters.com:20070503:M TFH82454_2007-05-03_21-22-14_N03447011&type=comktNews&rpc=44)

[thepotato232]

Yeah, and I want a pony. AA is as likely to get that 30% raise as you guys are to have Philip Chen come down to Discovery Bay and kiss your chief pilot's arse.

[geh065]

Who cares? it will not make an iota of difference anyway.

[Yeager]

Philip Chen (aka Mickey Mouse) is actually a pony! No wonder the kiwis like cheeps! much more :D

[BusyB]

Yeager,

What are you on? Do you drink it or smoke it?:}

[Yeager]

Drink it! :ok:

[hawkeye]

Rumour mill churning as follows:

Increase in hours from 84 to 92
Age limit raised to 65; seen as inevitable under the anti-discrimination laws
Three crew to Europe instead of four

In return:

15% pay rise. If you do 92 hours you will get 15% anyway in overtime.

[Buttie Box]

Here's a thought:

On the subject of remuneration, the starting pay increase has to be 15% before we even start talking about an increase in credit hours or productivity. This would take into account the cost of living increases imposed on us over the last 6 years.

Having set a base line, we then need to look at our increase in productivity as a pilot workforce that the company have already gained over the past 6 years. The union have posted a figure higher than 15%.

We then need to look at what the company would like from us in return for the increase in salary. In today's business environment, although arguably it has already squeezed extra productivity from us, we don't get something for nothing. Three-pilot long haul from 4 must mean in increase in productivity of at least 25%.

Penultimately, there's the upcoming subject of UK tax looming. Taking average taxes of 15% in HK and 35% in the UK, the difference will be 20%. Obviously, this is a subject for individual consideration - I include it as an aside.

Finally, there has to be a goodwill, or "stop-the-rot" factor in order to stem the outflow and proactively attract the individuals who are either not turning up for interview or who are being discouraged from the comments on these pages.

In summary, the 30% being asked for would not be unreasonable here in HK, with a no-go-below settlement of 20%.

I am
Sir
the eternal optimist

BB

[The Management]

Cathay Pacific pilots will not be asking for a great deal. They will be too busy signing up for 92 hours and 3 pilot Ultra Long Haul to Europe, Freighter Flying, working G days, etc.

It only effects the European based pilots. It does not affect other pilots and the rest get a pay rise and retain 4 pilot Ultra Long Haul, for the time being.

The Cathay Pacific Group realises the pilots are desperate for a pay rise and will do just about anything to acquire it, except “Contract Compliance” of course. We all know this is cause for termination with The Cathay Pacific Group.

The Pilots have lost so much with regard to net pay in the past 6 years (taxed on all benefits, overpriced tickets, inflation, currency devaluation, UK PAYE, etc.) some are getting desperate for more money. We are weighing on this.

The poorer we keep the pilots the more we can manipulate them into signing the contracts that WE want.

The Cathay Pacific Group will give a pittance wage for some enormous productive gains. Most will vote yes with the backing of the AOA.

We have used many tactics in the past to persuade the pilots. We told the pilot group we would bestow A Scale salaries to all captains but the HKAOA president at the time would not bring this to the members. This was very effective to oust the problematic president, not only with the HKAOA but with HKALPA. Did any of you believe we would pay A Scale to captains? That is the reason you pilots are losing this battle on conditions.

Many may be adequate pilots but all are industrial relation dimwits.

To this year BONUS!

The Management

[gipilot]

hahahhahhaa, "The Management" you are such a loserrrrrrr, hahahha.
But keep posting dude , we need losers like you on these forums , for the humor of course.
You go Dude.

[cpdude]

pilots are desperate for a pay rise

Not so! I couldn't careless if we get more money! What I do care about is the continued erossion of any respect for the company we work for. I will not fly freighters nor will I do ANYTHING for the company I don't have to. I never ever felt that way at my previous airlines so deal with that NR. Change the attitudes of people like me with actions which support rather than hinder the troops.

CX management has always been looking to take take take. It's time to give back if you don't want a passive revolt. The storm is not too far away either!

They will be too busy signing up for 92 hours and 3 pilot Ultra Long Haul to Europe, Freighter Flying, working G days

Sure they will! Ohhh, I'm feeling sick again!:E :}

gipilot, don't underestimate the service "The Management" is doing for all of us. He keeps our eyes open!;)

[Cpt. Underpants]

cpdude, I seem to recall you JOINED on the freighters and were anti-AOA.

If you've had a change of heart, good on you mate. Now if only we could get the message across to some of the other guys...

[Sqwak7700]

I really don't think that the company can expect to get so much mileage from the 49ers. When those guys where fired it was a completely different atmosphere. A lot has changed since then.

Someone once said that a company gets the union that they deserve. If Cathay wants to head down that road, that is fine. I don't think we will be as hesitant to stand up against them in the current market environment. Jobs are a plenty right now. And not just in Asia, but in Europe, NA and the Middle East. If the company wants to get into a pissing match over pay or COS I think they will find the wind in our favor.

Most guys I've talked to aren't afraid of the consequences if we head down the "work to rule" road. I really doubt that the attrition rate when the 49er fiasco occurred was the same as what it is today. That definetely puts things in our favor.

As far as settling for 20%, ah, dude...what the hell??? You start your post with all this evidence of how far behind we are. 10% here, another 15% there, then another 15% on that, and then you say you would settle for 20% Give me a brake. I certainly hope you don't hold a negotiating position on the union. :yuk:

I propose we go for productivity + inflation. Our productivity has gone up 28%, well then so should our pay...period. Not negotiable. And this shouldn't include FURTHER PRODUCTIVITY INCREASES ON OUR PART! If they want that, then we should ask for more. The productivity increase they owe us is just that; money THEY OWE US. Whatever productivity they hope to increase in these negotiations should be tacked on to that figure. If 3 man Europe gives them 10%, well then we should request another 10% on top of the current figure. That is fair and doesn't even involve a pay raise, just being paid more for working more. :D

There should also be a yearly increase to adjust for inflation. 3% yearly seems more than fair considering that some years, like last, were higher.

That is what I think we should be demanding in our negotiations.

[The Management]

If I remember correctly you had many more pilots in the club in 2001 and again if I remember correctly you voted over 90% in favour of industrial action. Less than 10% carried it out and we terminated 5% of them. The pilots now have less club members after many hundreds of pilots joined the company. Yes much has changed since 2001.

If the HKAOA announces a “work to rule” campaign, we will select a few pilots that step out of line. We will run a D&G and will find those pilots not acting in the best interest of The Cathay Pacific Group and will be terminated immediately.

At that time, all of the pilots will be running to save their own self as in the past. Do you actually think you can get the pilots to report sick or on a so called strike until those pilots get their jobs back. I think we been through this before and the pilots lost and WE won. In that context, nothing has changed or will ever change.

We have all pilots living in fear of losing their job. In most cases we put a letter on a pilots P-file and that is usually enough. If not, these pilots are called in to speak to a Manager about the situation i.e. not flying the freighter, not reducing rest, not using discretion, not answering the phone, sickness management, etc. The pilots at the Cathay Pacific Group are very intimidated and that is what the 49ers situation has created.

Do you expect The Management of The Cathay Pacific Group to believe there will be a rebellion of the pilots?

We have some bad apples still in the pilot group and you seem to be one. Most pilots now work in favour of The Cathay Pacific Group through intimidation of course. We still have many pilots willing to help out OUR Company in whatever way Crew Control/Managers will ask of them. Our Flying Pilot Managers are only too happy to intimidate the crew, it can be very subtle, call to the office, or very harsh, with the threat of a D&G procedure. That is what we pay them for.

We have read all the literature before about “union that they deserve”. It does not work here.

We must admit, in 2001 we thought we may have another 1999 on our hands but by firing the 51 pilots that effectively ended that sort of behaviour in the pilot group. Many pilots still flew even though we threatened them with a sign or be fired. Many signed the critical mass list within the first few hours. We know the character of the pilots and that will not change.

If you would like to leave for any of those companies that you have mentioned, leave. The Cathay Pacific Group is still the best career job, if not the only career job, in Asia and most other parts of the world. Yes we will lose some to the UPS’s and Fed Ex's but that is only a token few. There are always pilots that cannot get hired with these companies or are too old to return to their home country to start over. We have most pilots where we want them, obedient and poor.

We have a list of all owner occupiers and most have expenses in their home countries We know most pilots are over extended in the financial situation and cannot afford to lose their jobs. If one cannot afford to lose ones job, then one will follow in the best interest of the company i.e. as mentioned above. How many can do without housing allowance for a month?

When you threaten to “work to rule” we know it is only pilot cowardliness. We know the pilots and it will not happen. If it does, a few will reap the consequences.

Remember we have many applications to join The Cathay Pacific Group. We have a Great Training Department and more are joining the Training Department every month. There is always someone junior willing to jump the ranks for a training position. As I have said before, it is a sought after position and well paid in The Cathay Pacific Group.

If pilots leave, we will upgraded the ones WE see fit. The junior pilots long for more to leave so their upgrades will come sooner. There are numerous pilots out there, many would adore to have a window seat in a Cathay Pacific Wide Bodied Jet. Don’t under estimate that.

As for productivity, Crew Scheduling is more efficient to obtain additional productivity and NO you do not deserve more pay for that gain. The pilot group waived their rights to 5-4-3 protection and that is OUR gain. We introduced 3 man ULH on Auckland and Anchorage, integrated patterns, work stacking, etc. Like I said before, the pilot group is Industrial Challenged to say the least or Industrial Dimwits as we like to call it in Management. If you are foolish enough to vote for the agreements, don’t come back to us Managers whinging about pay after the fact.

We will offer a pittance for more Industrial gains and we will pit one group against the other. We will introduce 3 man ULH in Europe. Most will vote for it as it does not affect them and will obtain a increase in pay for it. Then we will introduce 3 man ULH to other base areas. Those on the 3 man crew base i.e. New Zealand and Europe, will vote to bludgeon the other bases. Very simple. We have being doing this for years and still you act as greedy pilots doing our work for us. Keep it up, we are relying on you.

We are approaching the CAD with the data on controlled in-seat resting. The HKCAD is very close to agreeing with The Cathay Pacific Group on this matter. When controlled in-seat resting is approved, which will be in the near future, WE will operate 1 captain, 1 first officer and 1 second officer to Europe. One will rest in the bunk and the other will use controlled in-seat resting. That is to ensure that two pilots are rested for landing. The HKCAD realises this is how most other airlines operate and is good for business for The Cathay Pacific Group. Most airlines operator 15 hours (scheduled sector time) with 3 man crew. For the time being, flights over 15 hours scheduled sector time will retain 4 man crew, but that will change.

This is the future and we will start our intense pilot education on these matters in the Q3 of this year on how this will benefit the pilots and the extra money you will receive in return.

Here's to hoping for A scale captains.

To my huge year end BONUS and I wish to thank you dimwits for it.

The Management

[ACMS]

good, enjoy flying all the aircraft yourself then.

[ZS-LMI]

As a pilot wanting to join the GREAT CX, I must say that you guys are not painting a good picture!!

Are there really such huge problems?

I have an up coming interview and have been putting in a lot of hours in order to get in. But now I am not so sure!!:uhoh:.


Regarding starting pay, what is the money like? Can a family of 4 live on it and how much time do you get off to see them?:rolleyes:

HELP !!

[expatula]

The Management, that was an amazing post, and so damn scary too! Who are you? You seem to be knowledgeable about everything in CX. Both from a top management perspective and from inside the pilots' community you seem to have everything in your hands. I notice everytime you make a post, CX pilots start to cower and tremble in fear. You speak like an all knowing, cruel god and master of darkness that is feared by all. I wonder how you sleep well at night knowing that everybody in CX seems to live in fear under your prying eyes.

And yet for whatever it is worth, still I laud you for your rhetorics and articulateness. You are one brilliant writer!

[slapfaan]

EXPATULA...

"The Management" is nothing but a boring old prick,who has no life,no family..

ALL his forums are based on rumours that have ALREADY done the rounds on the flight deck,most probably started by himself,and then seeing what the reaction will be..

Maybe it's time for CX to conduct a fresh round of psycho tests on pilots,I bet you "the not-so-management" will be the first one to be kicked out!!

Now watch him write back something to the effect of:" yeah,we (the management) knows who you are..and we are watching you..blah blah blah...

"get a life mate..and get it quick...!!"

[rhoshamboe]

The Management,
Don't worry mate I don't think too many of these guys realise what satire is. Having said I for one think that you are spot on and this is exactly where we are headed. The joke that is RP07 has already destroyed my roster with no more than two blocks of 4 days off (not counting my 1 week of leave of course) in the last 3 months and next month only blocks of 3 days off. Plenty of longhaul in there too. Just wait till it's 2 days off between 3 man longhauls and we'll see how many naive people that voted for RP07 will actually admit to it!!

[CMOTDibler]

I guess we will have to wait and see what is put in front of us by the committee but I would not underestimate the resolve of the majority of members. After being assurred that the recent agreements have shown our willingness to rebuild and come to concessional agreements a lot of members are awaiting the fruits of this strategy. I believe that any increase in pay tied to any further form of increased productivity would be voted down overwhelmingly. A lot has changed in the last 5 years. The housing market rise has made many quite well-off, jobs abound around the globe and the pollution in HK is driving many with children to consider other options.

With the companies current manning problems simple strategies of not working G days when asked, un-contactable on O days and turning down any requests from crew control would have immediate effects.
Perhaps we should take the companies recent negotiating stratagem- age 60 and 3 man to Europe will not be discussed until pay rise in line with inflation has been resolved.

Of course we would be happy to just rhoshamboe NR for it! I'm sure member above is up to representing us in this task;)

[Virtual Reality]

Rhoshamboe, I agreed 100% with you .............:ugh:

The Management, keep on posting mate, I for one will never miss reading your post ... Good job ....:D

[FlexibleResponse]

If you do 92 hours you will get 15% anyway in overtime.
My! How things change. Prior to 1994, when we reached 92 hours for any month we received overtime pay that effectively doubled our pay for that month!

[Mr. Bloggs]

Do you want me to go sick again, so you can get that back and maybe NR will throw in some shares for say $7.47?

Check you got my back................:ok: