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eastern wiseguy
12th Oct 2009, 12:40
Sounds like old ALLMCC is warming to Mullingar Mick......wasn't that long ago he was declaring "please stay away".......Looking forward to the documentary though:ok:

anna_list
12th Oct 2009, 13:23
Hi,

ASFKAP: "well anyone whose ever seen Mikey when a microphone is put in front of him will know why this can't happen"

Funnily enough, look what happened when the Panorama researcher "bumped" into MOL at the shareholder's meeting:

BBC - Panorama - Uncut: Ryanair's Michael O'Leary (http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_8298000/8298750.stm)

Worth the licence fee alone!

flying_shortly
12th Oct 2009, 15:10
What a legend! He completely took control of that interview. That quiet, unassuming British journalist hadn't a chance against the might of that hot blooded Irish Genius! lol...

Sober Lark
12th Oct 2009, 15:55
An amiable chap. So high on endorphins, you'd think he just got word that he'd bagged Aer Lingus.

eu01
12th Oct 2009, 16:41
Some 20 years ago I had a short-lasting “affair” with a public radio as a full-time journalist (changed my mind thereafter) and believe me, it would be very hard to most average interlocutors to be able to keep the discussion with MOL on track. The interview with him would be a nightmare to anybody too slow, too polite and too hesitating to force the man to answer the proper questions without smuggling in the same slogans over and over again. But okay, you did win it clearly, O'Leary, my congratulations! You'd need a stronger adversary, don't you?

davidjohnson6
12th Oct 2009, 16:52
If Panorama have a problem - if no one else can help - and if you can find him (which the BBC can) - maybe you can hire: - Jeremy Paxman !

(with apologies to a bunch of 1980s ex-US Army soldiers convicted for a crime they did not commit and who subsequently drove around in a black van)

mickyman
12th Oct 2009, 17:14
davidjohnson6

I think Paxman would shake his hand!

MM

lfc84
12th Oct 2009, 20:08
what was the point in that programme?

flying_shortly
12th Oct 2009, 20:08
That Panorama programme was very disappointing! I thought we'd get some Earth moving new scandal.... Not a thing! The closest to any scandal was the part to do with Travel Insurance....

I think the programme was symbolic of the phrase they used in it; "The airline people love to hate."

Very lazy jounalism if you ask me! If anything they promoted the idea of day trips and travelling Ryanair to explore Europe.....

Well done MO'L!!! I think he came across well.

Bearcat
12th Oct 2009, 20:29
Leo, is this your final post here....a little swan song au revoir?

daz211
12th Oct 2009, 20:36
What is going on ?

davidjohnson6
12th Oct 2009, 20:44
daz - someone pasted a clip from YouTube that was *very* off-topic !

racedo
12th Oct 2009, 20:52
Guess pissing off one of the Dimblebys going on holiday in July always has payback strange that they really pushed it at the end of the holidays.

No doubt Sir Stelios won't be getting the same treatment or BA either for that matter.

EI-BUD
12th Oct 2009, 20:58
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.pprune.org/report.php?p=5248293) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/reply_small.gif (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5248293&noquote=1) If Panorama have a problem - if no one else can help - and if you can find him (which the BBC can) - maybe you can hire: - Jeremy Paxman !



with apologies to a bunch of 1980s ex-US Army soldiers convicted for a crime they did not commit and who subsequently drove around in a black van

davidjohnson6 thanks for the post, it was excellent made me laugh-great sense of humour!:ok:

EI-BUD

DP.
12th Oct 2009, 21:13
Is that really what passes for investigative journalism these days?

Business pushes to get best deal in negotiations by playing one supplier off versus another.

Passengers don't get luxury service when paying bargain price for ticket.

Business charges high prices for goods when having monopoly power.

I have no loyalty to Ryanair, nor do I have any hatred for them, but that programme was, quite frankly, embarassing, and a complete waste of half an hour.

The stuff about expensive food/drinks could quite as easily be levelled at airports. You'd think Ryanair were forcing people to buy it (or fly with them) the way it was presented.

andrewmcharlton
12th Oct 2009, 21:22
What a pi$$ poor effort at "investigative journalism"

Love him or loathe him it's simple: don't want to use Ryanair don't book, there are no secret charges.

A joke of a programme. Let's see them do the same to every major airline.

LEGAL TENDER
12th Oct 2009, 21:39
All I know I just booked my Christmas holiday with them for £ 19.99.
BA were asking me £ 200 for the same route. (Only they don't fly it on the day I wanted it)
KLM about £ 1200 (sic).

I'll gladly splash out £ 2.50 for an overpriced cappuccino on board !!
(Oh, and it's to the same airport, not somewhere 100 km away !)

Day_Dreamer
12th Oct 2009, 21:41
Great publicity for MOL, free publicity and another 100000 seats sold.
The program did more for Ryanair than six months of prime time advertising.
Yes there was negativity from a couple of employees and a passenger with his family and 8 bags (Yes 8), but this was easily countered by the rest of the program and the expert comments.

flying_shortly
12th Oct 2009, 22:24
And don't forget that man with 8 bags got recompensed! I mean what Ryanair are doing is on the same scale I think as B.A. opening terminal 5. It's a completely new system that is bound to take time to tweek..... Given time it will work. It's not like that situation will happen on a regular basis, I hope.

And on the issue of employee treatment the programme itself recognised the early upgrades and decent pay for pilots(controversial I know and it said you worked hard for what you got).

I got the feeling off the interviewer he was digging and digging and not finding the scandal he wanted....

Hussar 54
13th Oct 2009, 07:37
Went to visit the daughter in the UK a few weeks ago....

Disgusting habit, I know, but went to WH Smith at Oxford station to buy a packet of cigarettes....

Was asked for £ 5.35 for the same cigarettes which I had bought at Sainsbury for £ 4.31 a couple of days before....

When I asked what / how / why was told ' Because this is a railway station '....So not just Ryanair and the airports, then....

Flightrider
13th Oct 2009, 07:42
Having watched the programme last night, I really do not see why Ryanair have taken such exception to this. As a piece of investigative journalism, I thought it was pretty thin and as a piece of Ryanair propaganda, I thought it was quite positive for them.

Ryanair's demand for an unedited interview to take place as part of a 30-minute programme is pretty unreasonable. I cannot think that any producer making a programme to be broadcast before the 21:00 watershed could ever commit to an unedited, uncut interview with O'Leary forming part of it without being in breach of the broadcasting rules.

ATSA1
13th Oct 2009, 08:28
I am no fan of MOL, or his airline, but to me Ryanair is just an example of "you get what you pay for" If you want to fly somewhere at a reasonable time of day, near to the city you want to fly to, without getting stung for lots of additionals, then don't fly Ryanair! There are plenty of other low cost operators, just dying to get hold of your hard earned money instead...

Did anyone see the bit on Uncle Roger's page in flight a week or so back? get a job at MOL's local, when he comes in for a beer, charge him 27p...then tell him if he wants it in a glass, that another £2, a head on it, another £1, and because he didnt order it online, thats another £3.50!

Drink Up Thee Cider
13th Oct 2009, 08:41
The lack of investigative quality speaks more about the pi55poor state of Panorama in 2009 than it does about Ryanair not having anything to defend. The journalism was so desperate as to be a joke and virtually any of us in the industry (particularly drivers) could have done a better job.

What we ended up with last night was a slightly startled middle class journo being appalled that the great unwashed could possibly fly with such a vulgar man. So what? No-one even half interested in aviation learnt anything from this programme and the real Ryanair issues (bullying Personnel tactics, the fact that their UK business is struggling, the BHD runway issue etc etc) were all missed.

M O'L was right about a lot last night - most particularly that it was a waste of license fee payers cash. The David Attenborough programme afterwards on the other hand was brilliant!!

GBALU53
13th Oct 2009, 08:49
Look at the bigger picture.:ok:
Ryanair is not the only airline in the world if you do not want to fly with them you either do not go or go elsewhere.
As has been quoted you get what you pay for, if all goes to plan you are happy it is only when things start going wrong you find out then and end up with a big hole in your bank balance.:ugh:
Sometimes people need to look at other carriers on the net not just get sucked into the like of Ryanair you might have to pay more but there might be some benefits with other carriers that you no not get with your truely??

Sober Lark
13th Oct 2009, 12:53
Panorama last night was a perfect demonstration of the advantages of not allowing yourself to be interviewed. A positive outcome for Ryanair but at the end of the day its all really an illusion industry.

No comment
13th Oct 2009, 13:10
I don't think Mr O'Leary wasn't allowing himself to be interviewed. In the 10 minutes BBC news online clip he maintains that he would like to be interviewed live with no editorial control. In fact the only reason he cut the doorstep "interview" short was to give a live BBC Radio 4 interview ten minutes later...

But still yes, a strangely positive outcome for Ryanair - something they always seem to manage to do with any publicity good or bad!

mickyman
13th Oct 2009, 14:52
I am glad to read that the majority of posters on here
have made comments that are fair or reasonable,about the
BBC programme.There cannot be much going on in the World
if a once pillar programme of the beeb wastes money on a
non-story like this.

As a share holder in the BBC I would ask a few questions of
the producers of this show and check their journalistic
qualifications.The wet interviewer of MOL was clearly not
up to the job!! The 'familyof8bags' was compensated by the
airline and last but not least ASFKAP nearly gave MOL his
due !!

Frightening really !!

MM

airnoc
13th Oct 2009, 19:37
Irish Indenpent todat 13/10/2009 says RYANAIR carries only 35 millons pax in a yearhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

davidjohnson6
13th Oct 2009, 19:57
aimoc - one can debate as to what sort of measure is important when talking about "number of passengers" - take your pick from below:

1) Number of non-refundable tickets sold. Unlike full-fare tickets on non-LCCs, those purchased from Ryanair, meaning MOL has your money whether you turn up to the airport or not. Furthermore, by setting the admin fees sufficiently high, MOL gets to keep the airport taxes if you don't show up, making you even more profitable
2) Number of passengers actually flown
3) Number of tickets sold at a non-trivial price. That ticket for 1 penny (including all extra fees and charges) counts as a ticket sold, but the revenue to Ryanair is on average negative since even if 1 passenger in 500 shows up, the overall cost of carrying these pax outweighs the direct revenue from those penny coins. One could thus argue that tickets sold for less than 5 euros should be ignored when comparing number of passengers.

It all depends on the purpose for which you use "number of passengers carried". If you want to show number of times people pull out their credit or debit card, then all ticket sales count. If you want to measure number of people who travelled, then only passengers flown counts. If you want to measure revenue for financial purposes, then only tickets for a non-trivial overall fare might be important. You have to consider what you wish to measure or compare.

As the misquoted saying goes - "Lies, damned lies, and statistics...."

BHX5DME
13th Oct 2009, 19:58
35 million each way = 70 million !

Charlie Roy
14th Oct 2009, 00:44
Ya, maybe the 35 million refers to the number of individuals.
For example in a typical year I account for 20 Ryanair passengers.
As mentioned, someone on a return trip accounts for 2 passengers.

flyingfree
14th Oct 2009, 01:27
I know that EZY use the airport for longer range flights aswell, but if FR were to name the airport Belfast-Derry, which they probably would, then two a/c and flights to LGW, STN, LTN, LPL, PIK, EMA, BRS, NCL etc would be all viable and also would free a/c up at STN, EMA and LPL for other services, alot like the airline do at Cork.

El Bunto
14th Oct 2009, 07:58
if FR were to name the airport Belfast-Derry, which they probably would, then two a/c and flights to LGW, STN, LTN, LPL, PIK, EMA, BRS, NCL etc would be all viable
I would doubt if Prestwick would stand a chance via Derry-for-Belfast when the coach & ferry service from Glasgow to Belfast takes 6 hours 15 mins city-to-city for £38.50 return!

50 mins to get to Prestwick
2 hours at airport
30 mins block time
30 mins to clear airport
2 hours on coach to Belfast

5 hours 50 mins or so. Plus associated air-travel hassle.

Given also the chap that posted up-thread about being a good traveller who arrived hours prior to departure, one wonders what the benefit of air travel is these days!

harbour cotter
14th Oct 2009, 10:13
El bunto,

I agree with your argument, but why 2 hours at an airport? With on-line check-in and hand luggage only, I usually allow 40 mins from car parking to boarding. I cut it too fine once at 20 minutes (at LPL) and although I made the flight, it was a bit stressful. I think that 1 hour is more than ample at most airports if you are a regular traveller, perhaps a bit more if unfamiliar with the airport, but 2 hours is excessive.

ORAC
14th Oct 2009, 12:38
Torygraph: Ryanair 'exposé' backfires on Panorama (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article6872560.ece)

The travelling public have come out overwhelming in Ryanair's favour after last night's BBC show

..........There was more than a snide grin on the face of whichever of the airline's PR wrote this statement in this morning's press release: "Panorama claimed that 'O’Leary is a bully' – this is clearly false when the whole world knows that O’Leary is a kind and gentle, caring and thoughtful, sensitive and saintly human being widely beloved by all Ryanair’s 6,500 people and its 66m passengers."......... :p:p

Sober Lark
14th Oct 2009, 13:53
"Ryanair’s 6,500 people"

That many! The genius of a CEO that makes it look like its a one man show.

Snidely Whiplash
14th Oct 2009, 18:58
MOL told Reuters, if for some reason we can't conclude an agreement with Boeing and Airbus, certainly by the end of the year, we will simply announce we are not going to buy any more aircraft.

He addedwe will then stop growing beyond 2012 when our current delivery stream runs out. The carrier stated it wants to conclude an order for 200 aircraft from either Boeing or Airbus by the end of 2009, for delivery after 2012.

Now its tough to read too much into one statement without context. But on the other hand we are able to see this latest comment in the context of this being a well known subject with many previous comments. Consequently, what can one deduce from the latest one?

It seems that MOL is not getting the deal he wants. There is no doubt that Airbus wants a Ryanair order. There is no doubt that Boeing wants to keep the customer. So the suppliers will play ball. But not at any price. And MOL is a bottom feeder - he will pressurize both vendors for essentially a sale at cost. Neither of them are that desperate in terms of narrow bodies, though each 787 cancellation adds pressure for another 3 narrows to hold order book value...not that OBV means anything, right?

Further, we know that MOL needs more planes to grow. Italy beckons and that in turn opens up the entire Med market. From Cyprus to Spain. Eastern Europe also offers rich pickings. Opportunities exist for Ryanair to grow nicely and the current target of 67m passengers can easily be built upon. Tripled easily within 5 years, we reckon...given adequate commitment from airframe manufacturers. Does Boeing want them, or does Boeing not. THIS is the question.

Therefore it would seem to us, that with Ryanair's commitment to the 737, the airline has breached the tipping point. And Boeing knows this. The last deal they did with Ryanair was made during desperate times. It is one they will not repeat. Ryanair cannot maintain its low costs if they switch to the A320, or run a mixed fleet. That means advantage Boeing and MOL is now coming to realize this. But he is no fool, and will play out his hand. The threat to stop growing hurts nobody but the airline itself. So discount those words.

The rate at which the airline will take deliveries tends to ensure that only Airbus and Boeing could act as a supplier. But that said, if MOL can accept the risk of slightly higher MRO costs and a tad more complexity in terms of fleet, he could turn the market upside down by ordering from Embraer (would roll over and give him the terms he wants) or Bombardier (ditto for CS-300). The increased costs would be offset, in our view, by having more flexibility in gauge for entering and building new markets. Stand by for a shocking Autumn announcement.

Whiplash Out.

in my last airline
14th Oct 2009, 19:24
As long as it's not TU204's I'm happy. In all seriousness though, what are the chances Boeing, Airbus and Embraer have all agreed not to prostitute their products? You know, a little bit of price fixing! No honour amongst thieves though. My money is on Boeing. You said Italy as the big Market, how about Russia?

davidjohnson6
14th Oct 2009, 20:06
in my last - the problem with Russia is that it's not part of the EU, and (broadly speaking) doesn't have any kind of agreement to permit non-Russian airlines to fly anything other than bilaterals. This means that Ryanair could fly between Ireland and Russia, but would have difficulty getting Govt permission flying any other kind of route involving Russia. Putin isn't about to let MOL make significant amounts of money at the expense of his compatriots

racedo
14th Oct 2009, 20:12
FR can sweat their fleet relatively easily and not spend any cash on new planes at the end of their current order book.

Given the average age of their fleet is 3 years V Southwest 14 years then Ryanair can take a decision when their current orders are fulfilled to stop buying for 7 years and still be under the Southwest age.

Its easy for people to assume Airbus / Boeing would just ignore this BUT I reckon the replacements of the current management may see it differently.

EI-BUD
14th Oct 2009, 21:14
Maybe here is Ryanair's Q to go and get a smaller type what about a C Series for Post 2012 deliveries??? Then redistribute the 738s to the highest density routes.

Or even looking at 195?

Boeing might respond with the deal they want. Airbus have been down the road before and in order to make a Ryanair order a reality it would need to be way way more discounted than anything that Boeing could do given the current fleet make up.... In any case highly unlikely MOL would agree to a mixed fleet anyway...?

EI-BUD

mickyman
14th Oct 2009, 21:35
ASFKAP

Yes it would - have you decided to 'experience' the
airline before you pass judgement then?

MM

MUFC_fan
14th Oct 2009, 22:48
Remember it is all comparative. Once person may be 20 Ryanair passengers but another maybe 20 BA passengers.

BEagle
14th Oct 2009, 22:52
An interesting programme....:confused:

The interviewer came across as a bumbling idiot, Mikey-the-Pikey as an unpleasant (to put it mildly) arrogant little so-and-so who treats the public as idiots. Which, it seems, they are.

Why some kid should think it reasonable to swan around Europe for tuppence a flight is beyond me.....:hmm:

Still, at least that keeps them away from proper airlines and airports, I suppose.

davidjohnson6
14th Oct 2009, 23:05
Why does the 16 year old kid from Leeds need to care whether swanning around Europe for tuppence a trip is reasonable ? He presumably doesn't have much of an income himself but can see those days out for almost free and has decided he wants a part of that - ambition and an eye for a bargain are traits to be ecnouraged !

johnnychips
14th Oct 2009, 23:12
BEagle - what an incredibly patronising post. Oiks being permitted to experience other countries and cultures...I bet they don't even know which way the port is passed...see you in the country club/at the polo match/in the next government:)

BEagle
15th Oct 2009, 09:04
Why does the 16 year old kid from Leeds need to care whether swanning around Europe for tuppence a trip is reasonable ?

That just about sums up the greed of the current era....

The Panorama programme was very weak - but having seen it, would anyone really choose to fly with that airline?

Of course the typical Ryanair passenger probably doesn't watch Panorama.

pee
15th Oct 2009, 09:35
the typical Ryanair passenger probably doesn't watch Panorama
Oh, smart people do not watch Panorama any more? Is it so bad nowadays? ;)

demomonkey
15th Oct 2009, 09:57
Filling your aeroplane up with 16 year olds who are flying for 2p (+tax) for a quick there and back won't make your accountants or shareholders happy.

Not sure what FR's break even yield are, but their 1p fares are just cheap marketing. It's a false economy.

FR's primary success has been based re-selling Boeing aeroplanes. We now know that avenue has been closed to them, Boeing got wise and Airbus aren't ready to be mugged just yet. Their second success was based on traffic growth and hub expansion. The current climate has stalled their business model.

Worse still, the lo-co market is showing signs of saturation (look at Gatwick). There aren't many places left FR can open new bases and there aren't many places where they don't fly to already. He could keep costs low by 're-deploying' bases but that costs money too and takes time. One of MOL's options is to go acquisitive with an existing lo-co airline and I agree with his synopsys that Aer Lingus is currently a basket case.

Don't believe me? Look at the share performance for all publicly quoted carriers, in the last 6 months FR has been static whereas all the rest (lo-co and legacy) have risen significantly. So his investors know that the game is definitely changing.

DM.

PS: I thought the Panorama programme was very weak, there is so much more they could have highlighted.

racedo
15th Oct 2009, 10:09
FR's primary success has been based re-selling Boeing aeroplanes. We now know that avenue has been closed to them, Boeing got wise and Airbus are ready not to be mugged. Their second success was based on traffic growth and hub expansion. The current climate has stalled their business model.

Is this the business model that added 18% more passengers in the last quarter ?

Selling on aircraft is a nice earner but its primary success is moving people.


Worse still, the Lo-Co market is even showing signs of saturation. There aren't many places left FR can open new bases and there aren't many places where they don't fly to already. One of MOL's new options is to go acquisitive with an existing Lo-Co airline and I agree with his synopsys that Aer Lingus is currently a basket case.

Italy has 60 Million domestic passenger journeys per year and Ryanair is only really starting to expand there over last 12 months.

In France it has pretty much left domestic travel alone because of the AF supporting policies but as shown on its MRS - Lille services it is getting the yields and will continue to open up opportunities.

Low Cost market is in Maturity in some countries but only scrating the surface in others and has probably 6-7 years before reaching that stage across Europe as a whole.

Charlie Roy
15th Oct 2009, 10:26
In France it has pretty much left domestic travel alone because of the AF supporting policies

What AF supporting policies?
Ryanair say "It's not fair AF get low charges on domestic routes". But any airline doing a domestic route in France gets low charges, so it is completely fair.

demomonkey
15th Oct 2009, 11:56
Is this the business model that added 18% more passengers in the last quarter ?Bums on seats is one thing, but yield is what matters. If those 18% are only paying 2p per sector you may as well fly fresh air. Is there any evidence that their yields/revenue have increased at a similar rate? And in the deepest recession in 2 decades, despite announcing fantastic increases in load factors the share price remains static. Something's not adding up.

Italy has 60 Million domestic passenger journeys per year and Ryanair is only really starting to expand there over last 12 months.True, FR may have only cursory penetration into the Italian market but EasyJet, AirOne, Wizzair, Blu-Express, Lufti-Italia, Air Berlin, Meridiana etc etc etc all have an established presence and the Italian public are familiar with the lo-co product. Plus the Italian Government have allowed Alitalia to run at a loss for years and show no signs of reversing this behaviour. Italy along with the other major European markets such as Spain, France and Germany is saturated. Central European is heavily penetrated by Wizzair, FR and EasyJet.

racedo
15th Oct 2009, 12:02
What AF supporting policies?
Ryanair say "It's not fair AF get low charges on domestic routes". But any airline doing a domestic route in France gets low charges, so it is completely fair.

Try getting any slots at any Paris airports and amazingly they always go to AF first.

Ryanair hasn't tried as its seen what Easyjet has tried to do and in their own indomitable way seen rules by French authorities.

racedo
15th Oct 2009, 12:16
Bums on seats is one thing, but yield is what matters. If those 18% are only paying 2p per sector you may as well fly fresh air. Is there any evidence that their yields/revenue have increased at a similar rate? And in the deepest recession in 2 decades, despite announcing fantastic increases in load factors the share price remains static. Something's not adding up.

Its your working on the assumption that all Ryanair is getting from a 2p passenger is 2p..........yup there are some. The reality of what they are getting is way more than 2p because people take on different things and pay by different methods.

True, FR may have only cursory penetration into the Italian market but EasyJet, AirOne, Wizzair, Blu-Express, Lufti-Italia, Air Berlin, Meridiana etc etc etc all have an established presence and the Italian public are familiar with the lo-co product.

Do you mean the 15% of the Italian market, twice the size of Easyjet is cursory ?

EU markets: Flag carrier dominance declining as LCCs continue to grab market share | anna.aero (http://www.anna.aero/2009/09/11/eu-markets-flag-carrier-dominance-declining-as-lccs-continue-to-grab-market-share/)


Plus the Italian Government have allowed Alitalia to run at a loss for years and show no signs of reversing this behaviour. Italy along with the other major European markets such as Spain, France and Germany is saturated. Central European is heavily penetrated by Wizzair, FR and EasyJet

Anybody who thinks the European market is saturated hasn't been following the demise of airlines with unsustainable costs over the last 18 months.

Lots of people are calling themselves low cost but few are actually able to deliver on it and remain in business rather than as Sky Europe showed going from crises to crises.

irish lad
15th Oct 2009, 12:49
Just decided to check out if Ryanair really are giving away Free flights!
And just a observation....
Dublin to Cork - Free
Dublin to Kerry - €35

is it because Dublin to Kerry is a pso route and the goverment pay ryanair to operate it, so do they just deliberatly keep fares high?

0523 cov man
15th Oct 2009, 13:06
are ryanair moveing from bhx any one know .
0523 covman

UPS@EMA
15th Oct 2009, 14:37
What makes you think they are leaving BHX cov man???? There has been nothing stating that coming from Ryanair or BHX management!

On a more positive note, expect a batch of new routes around Europe over the next 4 weeks for starting in March/April. Just something i have heard

call100
15th Oct 2009, 14:57
Forgive him. He's forever hopeful!!:}

demomonkey
15th Oct 2009, 18:14
Racedo,

I don't mean to be picky and I certainly would not want this to descend into a pointless pseudo-fact slinging match. But there are some contradictions in what you say;

In message 5975 (http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/274500-ryanair-6-a-299.html#post5254168) you said;

Italy has 60 Million domestic passenger journeys per year and Ryanair is only really starting to expand there over last 12 months.But in message 5979 (http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/274500-ryanair-6-a-299.html#post5254400) you say:

Do you mean the 15% of the Italian market, twice the size of Easyjet is cursory ?Looks like they have reached their critical mass in Italy already then? It seems to me, reading the article you referenced that FR has pretty strong penetration into all the key marketplaces across Europe, which was my original point.

And in the same message you said:

Anybody who thinks the European market is saturated hasn't been following the demise of airlines with unsustainable costs over the last 18 months.Don't you think the collapse in air travel and the demise of so many airlines was caused by a contraction in the actual and projected marketplace? Investors realised they'd never see their money again and pulled the plug causing the airlines to collapse. For too long, alot of airlines have been surviving on cheap and rollable debt and unrealistic predictions of air traffic growth.

Ryanair is very lucky, they have an enviable position of sitting on a large pile of cash (largely generated from the re-sale of Boeing 737s - I refer to their filed accounts) and even in the current climate are still generating positive cashflow. But the old days are over, the next phase of FR's history will not be like the last 10 years and they will have to adapt.

racedo
15th Oct 2009, 18:59
Don't you think the collapse in air travel and the demise of so many airlines was caused by a contraction in the actual and projected marketplace? Investors realised they'd never see their money again and pulled the plug causing the airlines to collapse. For too long, alot of airlines have been surviving on cheap and rollable debt and unrealistic predictions of air traffic growth.

Number of reasons for collapse some you alluded to and
1.) Easy debt with no idea of how to generate sufficient cash to repay it
2.) Unrealistic assumptions regarding setting up i.e. Sky Europe assumming it could beat FR on service and price
3.) Management incapable of realising that any fool can make money in a boom its the recession that forces good management to the top
4.) Management unable to make money in a boom


Ryanair is very lucky, they have an enviable position of sitting on a large pile of cash (largely generated from the re-sale of Boeing 737s - I refer to their filed accounts) and even in the current climate are still generating positive cashflow. But the old days are over, the next phase of FR's history will not be like the last 10 years and they will have to adapt.

For luck see under Good Management willing to take the risk, people forget that Ryanair is not MOL but a lot of people with a lot of expertise behind them. Betting on Boeing willing to accept a huge order when everyone was cancelling there is betting the farm and winning.

Nobody expects the next 5 years to be like the last but the same assumptions regarding the downturn in Airlines does affect the legacy carriers be it Alitalia / Iberia etc, they won't be supported for ever by Governments when their own people are bailing out to cheaper carriers. I don't think FR are struggling for new growth opportunities.

Holding 15% show there is a potential 85% that has not been touched and that doesn't include building up new routes and new markets so even in a flat market you would expect a growth rate from legacy carriers as route network is more extensive.

Some of the future growth will come from existing airlines and some from new route development as lets face it 6 years ago flying to Eastern Europe was limited and even now because of Income levels its still so BUT that doesn't last forever.

Economies are coming out of recession but still another 9-12 months of pain and people will get back to old ways of flying.

Sometimes its outlasting every one else that wins.

mickyman
15th Oct 2009, 21:29
demonmonkey

You seem to be able to predict the future when it comes to
Ryanair.

racedo

I side with you on this debate because MOL and his chums
have shown themselves to be capable business people over
the last 15 yrs.

MM

h&s
16th Oct 2009, 11:16
I like your posts Racedo (contrary to most of the people apparently ;-) but I am surprised you still think the recession will benefit Ryanair. When MOL, with its characteristic bad taste humour was happy to declare than (while many people were loosing their jobs) "recession is a good thing and Ryanair will benefit from it as it always did", I strongly contest that with few arguments, basically a total change in environment vs e.g 2001 crisis (as flag carriers much more competitive in terms of prices), rubbish investment in EI that will cost them money, bad hedging strategy and many bad routes that will be even worst during the recession.

Today, I still think what I said and still thinks that MOL and its apparently "people with lot of expertise" were wrong to think that as in 2001 they will make a lot of money with the crisis, as confirmed by their financial results with a first loose (because of EI investment... so entirely because of their fault) and a very very lower operating profit/margin. My point of view is that not only contrary to 2001 business people didn't switch from flag carriers to Ryanair (whereas I do believe easyJet with main airports benefit about that) and the latter only maintain its LF with big discounted fares, but I am actually not even sure than the few bankrupt will benefit the airline as in most of the cases, stronger airlines replaced the bankrupted ones (Wizzair for Sky, Transavia and Norwegian for Sterling, Jet2 and BMIB for EZY at EMA). So at the end, Racedo you always keen to defend Ryanair vision, but on this case, I am not sure the crisis has benefited Ryanair, contrary to what they announced, and I am actually sure than the crisis actually demonstrates than MOL apparently main objective to give every tickets for free is obviously not achievable.

One thing I agree with you is that the potential of development is still important in Europe and there are still a lot of underserved markets for LCCs.

About BBC panorama, MOL as always is playing on people lack of information, and he knows very well that Ryanair didn't transport 66m of PAX. If you consider most of flights (>90% probably) are return tickets, many PAX are regular users (let's say around 25%) and the huge number of no shows (let's say around 10 i.e c5% on average on their flights), the number of people really transported by Ryanair is more around 25m than 66m...

About the BBC panorama show, I think it has been very fair actually, with some very good points for Ryanair (interview of the young chap, Malmo airport etc). My problem is more that it missed the real problems:
- most of the employees hate working within the company, as prooved by the huge people turnover
- lies to shareholders such as when they said in their FYR Bremen were working well whereas everybody knew it was a nightmare, or VLC were performing well and close it few months later. Same statement with Belfast city whereas still today the base is a dog
- why did they stop to communicate flown passenger statistics since they offer so much free tickets whereas probably half of the tickets offered for free are probably not flown
- does MOL confident than its Troyes horse at Aer Lingus will permit him to take over the flag carrier?
etc etc

Facelookbovvered
16th Oct 2009, 12:18
If one knew nothing about our industry, then i think you would go away from the Panorma programe with the view that Ryanair are safe, very cheap, always on time and pay the staff (pilots) well and use brand new aircraft, most of which is of course true. What a programe can't show is hassel, wit schedules getting chopped and changed and having to monitor your e-mail every 5 minutes, or turning up at the airport hours before, because a minute late and you are denied boarding, even if the inbound is late, not to protect the time keeping, but to make you buy another ticket which will be 17500% more expensive that the pound ticket you bought on line or £40 for the boarding card that you left in the shop or security, that intended hassel

Ryanair business model is very price sensitive, and whilst the kid from Leeds with his visa electron card in his pocket (i doubt there'l be a condom in there!) might get off flying to DUB every week for £1.00 its hardly the most sustainable way of doing bussiness (he will get bored or have to start paying for his flying training!!)

What Ryanair have done is re-written the rule book (rule one there are no rules) and all credit to anyone who does that.

They would move every aircraft out of the UK before agree to BALPA and who can blame them? they have FTL that could not be operated by a UK airline,but can you imagin that BBC nerd trying to get that accross on the Telly?

There next big test will come when the airport deals are up, airports are starting to wise up that you can not bring Ryanair in and expect everything to stay the same with your present incumbents (if that's what you want) i suspect LBA is in for a shock when they turn up and tell the unwitting pax that the gifts/wine they have purchased airside will cost £30+ unless they can squeeze it in to the hand luggage and the airside retailers start moaning about Ryanair pax buying nothing (why do you think the asked for your flight number or boarding card in shops?) so all in all they do what they say they will do, bit like a bus, but on a bus you don't have to listen to adverts for Ryanair cigs Ryanair scratch cards and another on time arrival announcement when you get to Harrogate der et der ra.............

racedo
16th Oct 2009, 12:21
but I am surprised you still think the recession will benefit Ryanair. When MOL, with its characteristic bad taste humour was happy to declare than (while many people were loosing their jobs) "recession is a good thing and Ryanair will benefit from it as it always did", I strongly contest that with few arguments, basically a total change in environment vs e.g 2001 crisis (as flag carriers much more competitive in terms of prices), rubbish investment in EI that will cost them money, bad hedging strategy and many bad routes that will be even worst during the recession.


It already has benefited from recession in a number of ways
1.) exit of competitors
2.) people seeking lower fares
3.) Airports seeking new routes and passenger number as a result of failed operators / route exit becoming willing to approach and entice FR in

2001 was different in that was a crises of confidence brought about by 9/11 and they tackled it with passengers by giving away seats, overcoming peoples perceptions of confidence when a flight to Prague is free and secondly by ruthlessly expoliting manufacturers to get best prices for aircraft. Its business and thats how it operates not necessarily right or nice.

Lots of people lost their jobs already and some will still lose them but ultimately MOL is responsible for FR's performance not how others perform. There have been redundancies because of FR's actions in removing check in desks and route changes but I don't think any boss glorifies in that from any business, doesn't mean you don't feel for the people involved but he is there to make tough decisions and many times they are not nice ones.

Do FR screw up ? Of course but making a mistake is easy, its the recovery from it that is important and yup hedging screw up last year but in not hedging they have enjoyed lower prices than those who hedged at the top last year, not every decision is a bad decision.



Today, I still think what I said and still thinks that MOL and its apparently "people with lot of expertise" were wrong to think that as in 2001 they will make a lot of money with the crisis, as confirmed by their financial results with a first loose (because of EI investment... so entirely because of their fault) and a very very lower operating profit/margin. My point of view is that not only contrary to 2001 business people didn't switch from flag carriers to Ryanair (whereas I do believe easyJet with main airports benefit about that) and the latter only maintain its LF with big discounted fares, but I am actually not even sure than the few bankrupt will benefit the airline as in most of the cases, stronger airlines replaced the bankrupted ones (Wizzair for Sky, Transavia and Norwegian for Sterling, Jet2 and BMIB for EZY at EMA). So at the end, Racedo you always keen to defend Ryanair vision, but on this case, I am not sure the crisis has benefited Ryanair, contrary to what they announced, and I am actually sure than the crisis actually demonstrates than MOL apparently main objective to give every tickets for free is obviously not achievable.


I think in 2001 they gambled with the future of the company because had passengers refused to travel as happened in the US then the company would have ceased to exist.

It looks like a good decision now but in the 48 hours after they went with 1st big sale likely they sweated a bit. Which is more a risk, a passenger who will pay £/€10 for a fare or one where you relying on to pay 350 times that in business class, BA losses show which is not working at this moment in time.



One thing I agree with you is that the potential of development is still important in Europe and there are still a lot of underserved markets for LCCs.

About BBC panorama, MOL as always is playing on people lack of information, and he knows very well that Ryanair didn't transport 66m of PAX. If you consider most of flights (>90% probably) are return tickets, many PAX are regular users (let's say around 25%) and the huge number of no shows (let's say around 10 i.e c5% on average on their flights), the number of people really transported by Ryanair is more around 25m than 66m...


He never said FR carried 66M as YTD thats not yet been achieved but as they don't overbook and don't refund then stating tickets sold as passengers is how they operate. They not the only ones but get the most grief for it as people want a stick to beat them with.

The 66M are seats sold as they do not sell return tickets, therefore unlike if you buy a ticket with BA from LHR-CDG if you fail to turn up at LHR for outgoing leg the ticket is void, however with FR / Easy etc turning up for outbound is irrelevant as its sold by sector.

If you went down the actual individuals carried then numbers would be a lot less as with all airlines as BA with 30 million passengers carried are not carrying 30 million unique individuals so it affects everybody in that context. An acquaintance is a SLF with BA and its Amsterdam or Chicago / Singapore / New York / Hong Kong on a rolling basis every week. He did 150 flights with BA (300 plus sectors) last year so it affects everybody equally.

I think there is a long way to go with LC model within Europe and people forget that countries like UK etc will come out of recession and people start flying more again so the opportunities are and will be available for quite a while.

pee
16th Oct 2009, 13:00
What a programe can't show is hassel, with schedules getting chopped and changed and having to monitor your e-mail every 5 minutes

Well, the "instability" of flight schedules is an important issue. Probably every fourth pax flying from Finland just wants to get to HHN, STN or BRE to catch an other plane and continue the travel towards Spain or Italy. That is, however, very problematic as flight time changes are too common to be accepted, too risky in many cases. Ryanair may officially reject the idea of connecting flights, but should not hamper travel planning if anybody is brave enough to consider some self-made connecting routes, these guys are paying for two flights, after all. Well yes, theoretically the pax cannot blame the carrier for these changes but many of the travellers who had their plans ruined due to schedule changes will not be flying any more.

Btw. Some improvements in schedule planning (self-connecting pax in view) could encourage many more to use FR services. What's the sense in neglecting them?

BEagle
16th Oct 2009, 19:00
Btw. Some improvements in schedule planning (self-connecting pax in view) could encourage many more to use FR services. What's the sense in neglecting them?

It doesn't fit with Mikey-the-Pikey's cheap and nasty 'service' as it would require through luggage transfer, for one thing.

Those who risk flying with this nasty little airline only have themselves to blame when it all turns to worms.

LPFR
16th Oct 2009, 19:31
It's not even just because of the baggage transfer, they could even allow connections for passangers with hand-luggage only, it wouldn't work either. But I can't see a Ryanair plane wait for other passengers that are arriving late on another flight. Plus allowing connections wouldn't give Ryanair the same flexibility to just change schedules and flight times everytime it suits their needs. It's just too complicated for their operational system.

AndyH52
16th Oct 2009, 20:47
BEagle - are you speaking from experience or just another one jumping on the anti-Ryanair bad wagon? With one exception I've always found the Ryanair experience fine and certainly no worse than many other of the airlines I've flown with. I certainly wouldn't describe the service as "nasty".

racedo
16th Oct 2009, 21:19
What a programe can't show is hassel, wit schedules getting chopped and changed and having to monitor your e-mail every 5 minutes, or turning up at the airport hours before, because a minute late and you are denied boarding, even if the inbound is late, not to protect the time keeping, but to make you buy another ticket which will be 17500% more expensive that the pound ticket you bought on line or £40 for the boarding card that you left in the shop or security, that intended hassel

So how are they different from easyjet who do exactly the same thing in denying boarding, BA with their 35 minute rule at T5.

Its pretty hard to be denied boarding for FR now as you have to check in online.

As for leaving boarding card all over the place !!!!! Based on this you are a security risk and probably shouldn't be let out alone.

The Real Slim Shady
16th Oct 2009, 21:48
BEagle.

It is neither nasty nor is it little: 202 airframes growing to 312 in the next 2 years hardly qualifies as little.

As to nasty.....you get to travel on a new 738 ( fleet average age 2.3 years) for peanuts. You get there on time, best punctuality in Europe, without having your bag in Miami or Heathrow ( fewer lost bags than ANY airline).

Just what do you want for £10?

The aircraft is greener than your precious VC10 - around 25% of the emissions for close on 60% more passengers.

Facelookbovvered
16th Oct 2009, 22:49
Your right i am a security risk, i'll take the bus...........lol, that'll be an AIRBUS

BEagle
17th Oct 2009, 07:22
TRSS, I would certainly hope that the 737-800 has benefited from 40 years of aerospace development since the Conway-engined aircraft of the 1960s.....

£10 is a completely unrealistic figure for an air fare.

All Panorama did was to generate another excuse for that tawdry airline to grab more publicity. A shame that the interviewer was so poor.

As for European LoCos, I was once an enthusiastic passenger with Buzz. Their model was the acceptable face of a LoCo, as was GO!'s. But the wooden-headed, wooden-footed people at KLM killed Buzz off just as it was about to open a second hub. GO! was too successful for ba's liking as it was taking their passengers.

Buzz, of course, flew from Stansted to 'real' Frankfurt, not some ex-military base 115 km away in the Mosel pretending to be somewhere near Frankfurt.

I was stuck in solid traffic on the A61 Autobahn last Sunday and noticed the 'Hahn Express' also stuck. I wonder whether the outbound flight bothered to wait for the passengers.....??

Why do people hate Ryanair? They don't - they just detest that smug little so-and-so with all his arrogant BS. Did you hear him say how Ryanair had 'the best customer service'.........??

A few more airports with the resolve of Manchester and Malmö might restore reality.

mickyman
17th Oct 2009, 09:06
BEagle

So you have never actually flown with Ryanair - its
the thought of doing so that explains your dislike?

A little education goes a long way......

MM

BEagle
17th Oct 2009, 15:21
I have flown with Ryanair - in 2002.

Never again.

Falcon666
17th Oct 2009, 16:16
BEagle-- 2002 ,thats when they were ok.
You should try them now.


IMO In the last 7 years its only got worse

mickyman
17th Oct 2009, 16:23
BEagle

It must have been a nightmare for you as 7 years
later you feel the need to comment with such bile!

poor thing.............

MM

BEagle
17th Oct 2009, 17:04
Falcon666, yes, that's what I've been told.

I don't know whether it's true, but there was a story in the aviation press that some Boeing bigwig rang Ryanair to congratulate Mikey-the-Pikey on his idea to charge people to use the lavatory. Boeing would be entirely happy to design and fit a certified system to accommodate this.....at a cost of £50000 per door per aircraft.

It went rather quiet at the Irish end of the line....:hmm:

If people prostitute themselves by flying Ryanair and then have to fork out £500 to get home on a real airline when they get dumped by Ryanair and told to rebook for a flight in 4 days time, they only have themselves to blame for encouraging Ryanair to get away with their woeful attitude towards delayed customers. To my mind, the type of person who thinks that a 1p ticket to fly to Europe is the same type of person who buys counterfeit DVDs at a car boot sale. If the price is too good to be true, then it probably is.

The only thing I do agree with, though, is the rigid check-in time requirement. At least their aircraft aren't delayed when a bunch of drunken oiks stays in the airport bar too long.

rafinha130
17th Oct 2009, 17:06
STN-88,4%
BHX-84,5%
LPL-78,3%
BRS-76,1%

By the way, the new route Opo-Eindhoven, had a fantastic performance. LF over 90%.

eu01
17th Oct 2009, 17:29
I can't see a Ryanair plane wait for other passengers that are arriving late on another flight. Plus allowing connections wouldn't give Ryanair the same flexibility to just change schedules and flight times everytime it suits their needs. It's just too complicated for their operational system.Well, the statistics would actually be in favour of FR connecting flights. Allowing minimum 2.5 hrs for the transfer (why less?) would make the loss of such a connection by pax very unlikely. Worth considering, but frankly, I don't believe FR would bother. Not their style so far. Even so, FR should re-think its schedules in order to faciliate kind of un-official connections (pax being self-responsible for making them).

Pee has mentioned Finland, let's consider Tampere. An ideal solution to give a boost to such kind of travelling would be to have a daily flight to, say, HHN in the morning with a return flight therefrom as late as possible. There is no base in Tampere, how to achieve it? Well, here is an example, using a 'triangle' concept:

daily flights:

6:30 NYO - 8:30 TMP (originating NYO)
8:55 TMP - 10:25 HHN
(all flights from 12:00 onwards avaliable for Finns)
10:50 HHN - 12:45 NYO (back to NYO base)
-----------------------------------
17:05 NYO - 19:05 HHN
19:30 HHN - 23:00 TMP
(Finns arriving at HHN before 6 PM could return home)
23:25 TMP - 23:25 NYO

By using triangles one can create kind of "feeding" flights reflecting the prevailing direction of travel (morning/evening). Also possible: day trips (like in the example above for Swedes to Tampere).

And of course, TMP is only given as an example here. Generally it is more important to have flights from small airports to centrally located bases in the morning with an opposite trend in the evening.

BEagle
17th Oct 2009, 18:40
racedo, your rhetoric would be best confined to Jet Blast.

eu01, is there something about the Mosel that appeals to Finns to such an extent that a daily flight to not-Frankfurt (Hahn) would be particularly popular?

If you want to fly from Tampere to Frankfurt, there's always the Air Baltic service via Riga.

eu01
17th Oct 2009, 19:03
@BEagle

Don't know about Finnish people travelling to Frankfurt, you can ask one of them here.

Concerning Hahn (not Frankfurt at all), this airport could be the low-cost equivalent of FRA for people brave enough to effectuate the connections between two separate lo-co flights. I've discussed some preconditions needed to faciliate that.

ConstantFlyer
17th Oct 2009, 19:52
BEagle - With over 15,000 posts on PPRuNe, you must be the eminence grise of our Network. I therefore respect your point of view. However, eu01 has a point. Air travel has changed a lot since 2002. Our expectations and behaviour have too, as the type of service on offer has changed.

In the old days, an 'excursion return' fare was much cheaper than two singles, but required the pax to stay a Saturday night. People therefore moulded their behaviour so as to return from the same airport on the same airline and stay a Saturday night. You don't need to do that now. Instead, those who can do so mould their behaviour to avoid Fri/Sun evening travel and to take hand luggage only.

The fact that Hahn is miles from Frankfurt does not matter if they call it Hahn. It's only silly because Ryanair has called it Frankfurt. I recently flew to Torp. Not Oslo. Torp. I was going to the Norwegian town of Tonsberg. I flew to Torp because it is near Tonsberg. I didn't fly to Oslo because it is miles from Tonsberg. And because of the lo-cos, people can now choose to visit the Mosel region without having to go to Frankfurt.

Rome is, of course, the exception, with lo-cos using Ciampino (10 miles from the city) rather than Fiumicino (23 miles).

On the subject of transfers, I think a lot of people do it already. I do, anyway. I go into it with my eyes open, and fully realise that should I miss a connection, then an alternative flight is going to be quite expensive. That is a gamble I'm willing to take, and so far I've not had a problem.

45989
17th Oct 2009, 20:17
Racedo . You should confine your comments to puffing up ryanair! Racy stuff. I suspect your knowlege of your latest subject is rather limited. Might even get you banned again it not reined in?

rpmac
17th Oct 2009, 20:31
I often transfer from one airline to another, usually low cost operators, and have never had a problem. The nearest we ever had to missing our connection was when travelling to Palma via Madrid. The EasyJet flight was 5 hours delayed due to snow at Madrid. On arriving our baggage was delivered to the wrong hall and we all en masse trouped over to the other baggage hall, with no help or direction from anyone at Madrid airport. Our Ryanair flight to Palma was now about leave but the Ryanair check in crew were brilliant. The flight actually was closed but they arranged to take our luggage, etc and we dashed to the gate where we able to board. Our luggage arrived in Palma although for the second time not at the carousel announced. Ryanair were the best and I would use them anytime. Spending a lot of time in Majorca I meet people from all over Europe and I often ask who they flew with. The vast majority are more than pleased with the airline they came with. Older aircraft with Jet2 is never mentioned, newer aircraft with Ryanair is never mentioned. EasyJet, Jet2, Air Berlin, and Ryanair are all highly regarded.

daz211
17th Oct 2009, 20:54
I have just spoke to my insider at Ryanair STN...

NEW summer 2010 routes - one near Russia one in Croatia one in Bulgaria.
He/She couldnt say the Airports as they are just about to sign the deal.

Also Ryanair are mulling self handling at STN due to the state of Swissport
and the lack of money they have in the bank and the prospect of Swissport laying off another 100 staff (allegedly).

eu01
18th Oct 2009, 05:39
NEW summer 2010 routes - one near Russia one in Croatia one in Bulgaria.
He/She couldnt say the Airports as they are just about to sign the deal.
In Croatia I'd expect it to be Zagreb. As the Croatian Times (http://www.croatiantimes.com/news/Business/2009-10-14/6552/Zagreb_airport_to_reduce_prices_of_airport_services) has written:Zagreb airport’s new director Tonci Peovic has decided to cut the price of airport services.

Peovic’s plan is to attract more discount airlines. He has already talked with EasyJet and Ryanair representatives and expects they will have ten new flights to Zagreb.

Peovic said: "Clearly, we should be careful not to lower our income through new, lower prices, but we should also encourage discount airlines by sharing with them the risk of new flights. But, at the same time, we should be careful not to harm airlines with which we have been cooperating for years."

Peovic has promised the new prices will be transparent and non-discriminatory.

darren1
18th Oct 2009, 09:57
I think it could be Rijeka in Croatia, they are desperate for more flights and close enough to Pula for Ryanair to play the 2 airports off against each other.

compton3bravo
18th Oct 2009, 11:31
Do not forget Wizzair operate a successful three time weekly winter and four times weekly summer service to Luton from Zagreb and they and Ryanair don´t seem to tread on each other´s feet too much!

eu01
18th Oct 2009, 12:03
Well, FR could think of ZAG to STN or other UK destinations in the first place. Besides, much shorter route could also be perfect. E.g., according to Wikipedia, "in 2007 in Germany lived 225,309 Croatian citizens. According to data from church institutions there are about 310,000 to 350,000 Croatians living in Germany".

PPRuNe Pop
19th Oct 2009, 06:40
Here we go again!

What will it take for some of you to realise that we mods are getting seriously fed-up with inane, abusive and childish posts?

We are thinking about closing the thread on a permanent basis so that those with sand instead of brains can understand just what we mean.

The alternative is for the mealy mouthed idiots who, unfortunately don't get it will face a permanent exclusion from PPRuNe.

Get your act together or no thread.

In the meantime this thread is now closed so a new INTELLIGENT being can start another to be called Ryanair 7.

BUT WE WARNED, no more of this stupidity.

AA&R Mods