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liamfr
27th Feb 2009, 13:33
What a pointless waste of bandwidth.

€20 to pay with a visa card as that is the only way to pay?
As has been mentioned countless times on here, and is pointed out on ryanair.com, the Visa Electron card doesn't incur a fee.
Why should a predominantly internet based business accept payment by cheque when most retailers in the UK no longer recognise them as a form of payment? Why should I, as a consumer, incur additional costs relating to the processing of cheques, that a minority would choose to pay with?

You've chosen to check in one piece of hold baggage, no one is forcing you to. Again, why should I, a consumer who travels on most occasions with hand baggage only, subsidise passengers who wish to take hold baggage (incurring the airline more costs)?

Out of interest, what route will you be flying on? Did the route exist before Ryanair's arrival? How much would it cost to fly with a competitor?

lplsprog
27th Feb 2009, 13:50
Paully

As Ryanair is an Irish Airline isn't the £ a foreign currency and wont the charges be in Euros?;)

wind check
27th Feb 2009, 14:01
liamfr, thank you for your clever answer, but I don't have visa electron, sorry.
I have chosen a route which is flown only by ryanair, if there was another operator on that route I would not take ryanair, there is no doubt about it :ok:
I do fly a lot, and I avoid as much as possible ryanair. (I do take low cost easyJet, Air Berlin, BMI baby, Vueling, Clickair, and flag airlines... all are good)

Evanelpus
27th Feb 2009, 14:07
'A Pound to Pee' , I wonder if they'll put this on the fuselage!

StoneyBridge Radar
27th Feb 2009, 15:17
Atleast with near parity on the currencies, the cost of a Pound to Pee will be little different than it will be of a Euro to Eurinate :E

LTNman
27th Feb 2009, 15:52
If it was a Pound a pee I would make sure I left a nice skid mark so I got value for money.

allanmack
27th Feb 2009, 15:52
Whether it is a stunt or not (and I think it is) it has generated huge media coverage. Once again MOL and his sidekicks have generated £££££s worth of free advertising and again the traditionalists mock his antics. But then again in the UK we don't like methods that are 'just not cricket' do we?:*

ChalfontFlyer
27th Feb 2009, 17:01
Agreed allanmack it certainly has generated a huge amount of "free" media exposure for Ryanair to-day! In fact it has very neatly deflected the spotlight away from the topic that the BBC was talking to him about at the start of the interview this morning regarding the Hand & Hold luggage plus the removal of airport check-in's. He really didn't want to talk very much about the £30 charge for luggage but kept repeating just how much cheaper Ryanair is to fly!

Ah...the art of deflection is alive & well!!!:}

Based
27th Feb 2009, 17:16
I have chosen a route which is flown only by ryanair

wind check, I think you've proven liamfr's point. It's likely it would've cost you significantly more, and definitely taken considerably longer, to travel your proposed route without Ryanair!

Would you prefer that I part subsidise your baggage cost is that it? You choose to check in a bag and pay, I choose not to and don't. Seems fair to me.

carbootking
27th Feb 2009, 17:37
if you play ryanair at their own game and read their terms and conditions it doesnt cost a lot, i saw the interview on the bbc this morning and the bbc were putting the words in his mouth, it was only when the man presenter said next youll charge for the loo he said wev looked in to that , then they went in to one asking all sorts he just pointed out at railway stations you have to pay. every day i see people at stansted with their extra bags crying their eyes out as they havnt read the bit about extra bags, the way to beat ryanair with over 15 kg is send it by freight its alot cheaper. oleary even said get a visa electron card it doesnt cost you .hes clever the cost of this publicity is priceless hes brilliant.

kestrel757
27th Feb 2009, 17:49
When I can currently book Ryanair flights from my local UK airport to Dublin for just 49 pence + tax, yes, there and back for less than a pound + tax, would it really bother me paying one pound to pee?

But it won't happen, it's just another example of there being no such thing as bad publicity, just very cheap brand promotion.

on time all the time
27th Feb 2009, 18:29
Is ryanair so much in the S--t that they need to charge for the toilet use?

Noxegon
27th Feb 2009, 19:41
As has been mentioned countless times on here, and is pointed out on ryanair.com, the Visa Electron card doesn't incur a fee.

Indeed, and has been mentioned just a many times it's actually not possible to get a Visa Electron card at all in Ireland; no banks supply them.

Spotthedog
27th Feb 2009, 20:55
Probably only the first person in each toilet queue would have to pay as each person in turn holds the door open for the next! Can't imagine cc wishing to police this one!

I like the bit in the msn news report which says that: "Ryanair spokesman Stephen McNamara said: "Michael makes a lot of this stuff up as he goes along and, while this has been discussed internally, there are no immediate plans to introduce it"

Seat62K
27th Feb 2009, 20:58
Some feel that there's no such thing as bad publicity but I disagree. I think this episode will do Ryanair no good at all. I believe that the airline is making efforts to improve the "customer experience" but this latest publicity will in particular, I think, put off some who have never flown Ryanair - it will confirm the low opinion of the airline which many of them will doubtless have. Elsewhere on PPRuNe I have written that in the past I wouldn't have considered Ryanair because of the poor image I had of the carrier. I don't know what tempted me to try Ryanair but now I fly maybe 40-50 sectors a year with them and have very little to be critical of. My only regret is not having put aside my misgivings earlier.

5tarbuck
27th Feb 2009, 22:49
every day i see people at stansted with their extra bags crying their eyes out as they havnt read the bit about extra bags,


More satisfied customers.
Greeeeaaat!!!

The Real Slim Shady
27th Feb 2009, 23:21
Well spread the word, Ryanair is going zero tolerance on the bag issue this summer.

1 bag means 1 bag.

45989
27th Feb 2009, 23:54
colostomy bag maybe??

DrKev
28th Feb 2009, 02:15
if it holds more than 100 mils security might take it away!! :}

dada
28th Feb 2009, 06:13
vile is the only word i can use to describe the way ryanair are.
charging to go to the bog - just think what the cleaners will find stufft down the back of the cushions.................

MUFC_fan
28th Feb 2009, 06:35
Well I've just seen Ryanair on the front of another UK national newspaper.

Some how I don't think they would bring this charge in and I don't know how it can be legal when some flights are over 4 hours long! Correct me if I am wrong, but in the UK, if you are serving food and drink to be consumed on the premises (which I believe a plane would be), you have to supple toilets free of charge. As I said, I may be mistaken.

As I said, I do not think they will enforce this in the near future but it does show the marketing genius of MOL. Time and time again he pulls it out of the bag and turn's his companies name into the headline whether it be good or bad (usually the latter) but it is publicity and all publicity is good publicity!

He truly is the master of marketing I must give him that. I have a lot of respect for him for what he has achieved in business but I despise the man as a person.

eu01
28th Feb 2009, 07:00
Two completely different opinions of yours.
Well I've just seen Ryanair on the front of another UK national newspaper.
(...)
it does show the marketing genius of MOL. Time and time again he pulls it out of the bag and turn's his companies name into the headline whether it be good or bad
(...)
He truly is the master of marketing I must give him that.
Some feel that there's no such thing as bad publicity but I disagree. I think this episode will do Ryanair no good at all (...) - it will confirm the low opinion of the airline which many of them will doubtless have.
There is also a question of a good or bad taste. Also which kind of customers you win and whom you can lose by such a publicity. This time I'm closer to Seat62K's opinion.

GayFriendly
28th Feb 2009, 07:34
just think what the cleaners will find stufft down the back of the cushions.................


That will be the cleaners AKA the already overworked cabin crew then.......and they say that flying for a job is glamorous, must dust off my CV :)

1545
28th Feb 2009, 07:41
Not very good PEE R, or is MOL just taking the p*ss?

daz211
28th Feb 2009, 09:01
WEE ! all know that Ryanair will not charge you to use the loo.

The toilet spin was talked about for one reason and one reason only,
FREE ADVERTISING, a last push for summer sales.

Ryanair were on all the news channels and radio stations across Europe with the news of charging for a pee but later in the day the same news and radio stations were reporting a spokesperson from Ryanair had NOW said there we no plans to charge passengers to use the toilets "well not in the near future anyway"

And this is the KEY PART !

"Even if we DID charge for the loo we would still be offering the lowest fares this summer ".

So you see it has worked FREE FREE FREE advertising across the whole network ! everyone is talking about Ryanair and alot of people will be going to the Ryanair website to see if its true .

More people talking about ryanair = More bookings.
More people looking at the website = More bookings.

eastern wiseguy
28th Feb 2009, 11:05
At least someone got something out of it!





Punter to collect on bet after Ryanair’s ‘wee fee’ - Local & National, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/punter-to-collect-on-bet-after-ryanairrsquos-lsquowee-feersquo-14207987.html)


More people talking about ryanair = More bookings.

Not from me:hmm:

kick the tires
28th Feb 2009, 13:24
MOL must be round the bend thinking that this is good publicity - all hes done is flushed more potential revenue down the pan!

racedo
28th Feb 2009, 13:26
MOL must be round the bend thinking that this is good publicity - all hes done is flushed more potential revenue down the pan!

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

daz211
28th Feb 2009, 15:08
Good publicity !
What you dont seem to understand is ANY publicity is GOOD publicity.

Most of the counrty and as far away as the USA/Canada are talking about
Ryanair, the who point is people will go to the ryanair website to find the
story, whilst there, people will see the SALE BANNER, even if people are not looking to book a flight they will see the offers and destinations that Ryanair offer.

Some people wont know that Ryanair now fly to say IBZ, PMI, AGP, ALC, MAD, FAO and the list goes on.

So you see all puplicity is VERY GOOD PUBLICITY !

ALSO NOTE !

MOL stated 1 GBP £££££££££,
most of Ryanairs customers will use the EURO,
and a few will use other currencies,
so this will never happen trust me it was PUBLICITY !!!! and it WORKED.

kingdee
28th Feb 2009, 22:30
must agree :D well in mol keep up the good work.

dymonaz
28th Feb 2009, 23:38
Paid toilets could very well work like priority boarding thing. Think... There's three toilets total, 1 at the front, 2 at the back (right?) So, there's one free (legal requirement) at the back. It has a huge queue, and is quite far away for people in rows 1-15. The other two - priority loo! at €1 per go :) You can prebook online, if you wish so, at €.75 :) great stuff! Or "buy 10 for only €5" and use them on your future flights (terms and conditions apply) :)

I probably shouldn't have said this... they will really implement this now ;/

Thaimike
1st Mar 2009, 01:52
Good or bad publicity it dosen't really matter, a few disgruntled consumers MOL dosen't care, a few new customers MOL does care. The point is all the publicity was FREE!! FREE!! FREE!!
MOL would have had to pay thousands for all that coverage!!
Now there's a streak of Irish geniuous.

FR-
1st Mar 2009, 09:01
For all pax who are planning a trip with FR . . . . . ONE BAG ONLY, AND MAKE SURE IT FITS (55X45X20). FR pilots are also now telling the cabin crew to make sure only one bag per pax, and to offload them straight the way. I just dont know why pax still come to the boarding gate with 2/3 bags and expect to get on. It just isn't fair on other pax who have paid to put bags into the hold. (I offloaded 5 pax yesterday for having too many bags or over sized).

Also im liking DUB base, airport stanby's go to the boarding gate and charge for over sized bags to go into the hold.

FR- :mad:

take-off
1st Mar 2009, 11:50
So is this toilet charge in place, or are they planning it?
Just been speaking to me mum, and her friend was charged to go to loo yesterday, didnt ask where she was flying, but having read it in paper , just understood they were planning it , well it really is scrapping the bottom of the barrel now, whats left to charge for the seat belts i guess, if ever a company deserves what it gets , then this must be one of them, oh well wonder who'll be first to follow FRs example?

Rhodes13
1st Mar 2009, 12:13
takeoff there is no toilet charge on RYR. As has been said it was said slightly tongue in cheek by MOL and a RYR spoke person has already said they have no plans to introduce it yet! It was free publicity for the company. Many would argue that not all publicity is good though.

I would suggest your mums friends is telling fibs if she thinks she was charged to go to the loo. Perhaps a few to many at altitude? :sad:

take-off
1st Mar 2009, 12:21
this one bag policy , im not stupid but once u have checked in this means any customer flying fr , wont be able to use the shops at the airport unless they can fit it in their carry on luggage, wonder why the airports havent cottoned on to this? So anybody buying a litre bottle of spirits then in duty free if they cant get it in the handluggage , they have to leave it behind?

Facelookbovvered
1st Mar 2009, 12:46
People will then have some left to spend on board, but once thing start getting busy it will only be a matter of time be all bloody hell breaks out, i feel for single mums travelling with a little one and all the baby kit that they need to take on board, sooner or later someone will loose it big style at the gate, i feel for the gate staff as well, but hey ho thats what you get when you 99p or a lot more for that matter, only a matter of time before Jet2, bay, et all follow suit

The Real Slim Shady
1st Mar 2009, 14:03
You were given notice (http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/332752-ryanair-online-check-cabin-bagage-policy.html#post4205705) of this months ago :ugh::ugh::ugh:

undw
1st Mar 2009, 15:49
Oh dear......clever clever fools like MOL dice with the devil when it comes to the 'all publicity is good publicity' syndrome.........there will now be one of those unstoppable urban myths doing the rounds that Ryanair DOES charge to use the loos :uhoh: ...... ie. what an idiot/self defeating publicity which will make some nieve uncultured folk think twice about booking with Ryanair Actually come to think about it I do actuially believe this is Ryanair policy and Iam determined to let everyone know! :ok:

groundhogbhx
1st Mar 2009, 22:19
Suggestion I heard today was why not put MOL's face on the toilet paper, then there wouldn't be a problem paying to use it. Made me laugh :}

befree
4th Mar 2009, 14:41
Ryanair has just said it "sold" 7% more seats this Feb compared to 2008. In reality it is just dumping seats at below cost to people who may not even turn up having only paid a few euros on a electron card. The only thing to make it look better for them was it was in 28 days instead of 29 days in 2009.

This is the first single digit growth for over 4 years. The next milestone comes when the airline has a month of negetive growth. I think the pay to pee may be his ratners moment. Even if it was said as a joke it has left its mark in peoples minds. By May I expect growth will be 0-5% with negative growth after the summer. MOLs next problem is selling on all the planes that are 5 years old.

pabely
4th Mar 2009, 16:26
So how much more capacity have they between the 12 months? I make it 30 new 738s which must be a 5% increase in the number of seats available, give or take some WFU......

Sober Lark
4th Mar 2009, 17:12
"the first single digit growth for over 4 years"

All in all I think its a spectacular result considering we are in the midst of a severe global recession. Imagination probably isn't the way to try to build your reputation on predicting the future.

Seljuk22
4th Mar 2009, 17:37
6th a/c for PSA (announced) and 2nd a/c for AHO (will be announced soon).
New routes are/will be announced, too.

7% grow is not bad. Remember last year February has 29 days. So with a "normal" February last year the grow would be over 10%.

befree
4th Mar 2009, 18:13
Ryanair have about 45 planes comming each year and the plan was to go from 163 in 2008 to 181 in 2009 and then 223 in 2010. The rate of growth is controlled by selling a suitable number of planes per year. To keep to 10% growth they need to sell some 25 planes per year. At the same time boeing are a bit sort of trade and would make good offers to anyone who wished to buy new. The downturn is like a perfect storm for ryanair. The profit stream from selling 2nd hand planes above book value has gone. To keep the load factor up they are also having to keep planes parked for much of the winter.

At the end of March ryanair are reducing routes as the irish travel tax starts. That is likely to take a few percent more off growth and kill average income. In the UK airport charges are to rise and MOL is likely to pull more routes. I cannot see how this airline will have any growth after this summer.

daz211
4th Mar 2009, 18:49
What ever ! I have just booked STN-PMI for £6.00 RTN in mid May.
the only add on is the credit card booking fee !
the fare was FREE of TAX :ok:.

I had no problem with the Booking system what so ever.

When FR reduce the routes from Ireland they will just stick the A/C
on other routes, poss Italian routes.

Skipness One Echo
4th Mar 2009, 19:22
daz211 all that tells us is that they are desperate to sell the seats. All the underperforming days have fares like that. Some routes all fares are almost that low.
How much money do you iimagine that route is making them?

You talk about moving some of the fleet out of Ireland as if it was no big deal. Dublin used to be their core revenue generator, the DUB-UK market kept all the others afloat for years, now the aircraft are no longer making money in Eire. To blithely assume that things are rosey in Europe is nuts.

Eight new aircraft since January is it?

daz211
4th Mar 2009, 20:44
Dublin used to be their core revenue generator :8.

Yes and now its not :rolleyes: this shows that Ryanair move with the times.

Im not thinking that all is rosey in Europe but lets stop losing sleep :zzz:
over the worries :uhoh: of the world and enjoy a nice holiday in the med :cool:.

Just enjoy the VERY VERY cheap flights and live life :}.

pikkuprinssi
4th Mar 2009, 21:11
New routes from AHO:
Ancona, Billund, Brescia, Eindhoven, Graz, Hamburg(Lubeck) and Parma to be announced tomorrow.

befree
5th Mar 2009, 07:17
Easyjet are now shrinking to keep profits up. The two firms could not be more different. Easyjet want to keep routes profitable and do not have to keep growing. Ryanair is burning money to gain market share. Easyjet would clearly be a better airline to invest in.

BALLSOUT
5th Mar 2009, 09:20
befree, The easyjet plan is not one that the board wanted to take. It is purley the wish of stelios that they go down this route. the rest of the board seemed to want to follow the Ryanair plan. Only time will tell who was right!

ssflyer
5th Mar 2009, 09:24
UK papers say Ryanair are planning to be 30 flights down to BHX for the festival this year due to major drop in numbers of Irish racegoers.

befree
5th Mar 2009, 12:58
Ryanair lacks a shareholder like stelios who cares about longer term goals instead of short term growth. MOL is going to exit at some point but seems still mad on growth. This means doing things that are not profitable or in the interests of the shareholder long term prospects. Just look at RBS for how a one "great leader" can become public vilan over a few months.

Easyjet are clearly trying to be a profitabe airline while ryanair are trying to be as big as possible. Ryanair have another 150 planes on the way that need paying for. I could have a major cash flow problem in 2 years time and be gone in 4.

mickyman
5th Mar 2009, 13:44
befree

Yeah lets ALL hope that Ryanair is 'gone in 4' as you
have written,then we'll not have to put up with
them carrying 50m+ dumbhead passengers !! Just
think of all the crews who can 'get a proper job' or
even spend sometime on the dole to bring them
down a peg!

What a great 'British' tradition you are spouting -
keep up the good work!

MM

Sober Lark
5th Mar 2009, 13:45
Entrepreneur don't like sameness, it bores them when things stay the same. They get invigorated by a challenge and I think we'd all agree we are in challenging times.

A family of 5 from Dublin to Birmingham for EUR40 return! I kid you not! It certainly makes that bottle of DOM a hell of a lot cheaper. Cheers Leo ;)

Skipness One Echo
5th Mar 2009, 14:19
The views on here just keep going round and round. Yes Ryanair can fly you for almost no money. Yes they allow lots more people to fly, yes I do fly with them.

I think the problem is that they are led by a man who has frankly behaved appalingly. You can be an entrepaneurs like Stelios, Branson or Laker without having quite so many people hate you.

I like hubris. MOL knows whats coming. He's overstayed his welcome and he IS the story and by God he's looking old. His mature markets ( DUB and the UK ) which used to drive revenue are stagnant so he has to get into new ones. Hence the drive east and from the UK into the old IT market. Will it make money? Maybe. In the deepest recession in modern history? That would be an achievement.... With so many new B737s on order and the resale market flat?

I'm going to say no.
Hubris. Google it. Go on.

racedo
5th Mar 2009, 14:24
Ryanair lacks a shareholder like stelios who cares about longer term goals instead of short term growth. MOL is going to exit at some point but seems still mad on growth. This means doing things that are not profitable or in the interests of the shareholder long term prospects. Just look at RBS for how a one "great leader" can become public vilan over a few months.

Easyjet are clearly trying to be a profitabe airline while ryanair are trying to be as big as possible. Ryanair have another 150 planes on the way that need paying for. I could have a major cash flow problem in 2 years time and be gone in 4.

Stelios hasn't a clue what he is doing.

A serial entrepreneur who has such great successes as Easy Cinema, Easy Car Hire, Easy Pizza, Eazy Internet Cafe, Easy Hotel, Eazy Cruise and has lost millions doing it for him and his investors. This despite having the family millions supporting him.

He bullied the board last year in an attempt to force them into starting to pay dividends and reduce growth while at the same time threatening that unless he got his way he would use his shareholding to get himself reappointed as chief exec.

Pretty much the easiest way to force investors to dump your shares is to start down this route. RB did this which is why the investors walked away from Virgin.

Based
5th Mar 2009, 16:52
I could have a major cash flow problem in 2 years time and be gone in 4.

befree, I hope not but based on your investment viewpoint, I guess you could;) And who would there be to express all that Ryanair bitterness?!

sky9
5th Mar 2009, 17:06
A core part of the Ryanair business model is to buy aircraft at a discount from Boeing and sell them immediately then lease them back or after 4 or 5 years. If they don't keep expanding and selling the older aircraft it cuts off the profit centre.
The airline is both an airline and a leasing company in one shell. This was apparent in older accounts by the number of dry leased aircraft (that were presumably sold and leased back when new) that came onto their books as off balance sheet assets. These accounts are becoming more opaque to people like myself that are not accountants but take an interest in hunting the profit centre.

befree
5th Mar 2009, 17:49
Is that not now Enron got in a mess?

Now I could not tell if anything like that could happen to an airline.
Accounts used to be simple as firms just owned assets and borrowed money.
You could tell if a firm was sound by looking at what it owed and if it could service the debt.

Ryanair must have about 180 planes either in use, parked or awaiting sale. It also has 150ish more comming. The value of each 2nd hand plane may have dropped a few million euros. That is at some point going to hurt the business model.

I am sure some of the pilots will get jobs after the meltdown as it is only the money that does not add up.

racedo
5th Mar 2009, 19:24
A core part of the Ryanair business model is to buy aircraft at a discount from Boeing and sell them immediately then lease them back or after 4 or 5 years.I'm afraid this business model of Sale and Leaseback is pretty much standard across airlines plus many other businesses be it Pubs, Retailers, Train companies.

Nothing wrong with it as the details are well set out within Balance sheets.

As for getting rid of aircraft well Garuda seems to be picking up quite a few of these aircraft.

Remember if you buy a 737-800 for $22M, use it for 6 years and sell it for $10M then you really have a good deal.

racedo
5th Mar 2009, 19:31
Is that not now Enron got in a mess?

Ha.

So now Ryanair is Enron............. :ugh:

en2r
5th Mar 2009, 20:53
Rumours goes that MOL is sick with a bad disease i wish him all the best i hope its not true!
I think this could be true. One of my friends saw him about a month ago on a Ryanair flight and she said he looked terrible, and that he'd really aged.

Richard Taylor
5th Mar 2009, 20:56
Maybe he was just needing a p*** but had forgotten his pound coin...:E

Skipness One Echo
5th Mar 2009, 22:05
racedo I agree with what you're saying ( Oh dear God (!) ) but I think my concern is the rate of churn expected within the Ryanair fleet over a short-ish period and a large number of frames. Time will tell.,

johnnychips
5th Mar 2009, 23:19
Do we have to like Freddy Laker, Stelios, Branson or MOL?

They may, or may not, have made successful businesses, but I wouldn't like to be in the same room as them. (English uncomfortableness against anybody 'successful' as you wonder how many people they've trod on on their ascent)

Sorry for being cynical.

racedo
5th Mar 2009, 23:19
Skipness :ok: knew you'd come round from / to the dark side.

Think they already have sold most of the frames they need to sell over next 2 years....i.e. buyers lined up. Its why they wrote down value of aircraft in latest quarter results as prices already set.

11 new routes announced from Italy in last couple of days plus lots of aircraft out of lease in 18-24 months.

Airports want airlines at the moment who will grow routes and few airlines doing it so they will come calling. Boom time FR not welcome but when you are airport Chief Exec and it depends on SLF numbers and FR only one willing to grow them you swallow the pride and make the call........its why FR will end up with lots of slots at primary airports ready for an upswing.

BTW BA stated they are burning £3 m a day in cash and there were those who felt it wasn't important to have lots of free cash.

LTNman
6th Mar 2009, 04:59
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1610/cid109dd4c0009dd49ac003.gif (http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cid109dd4c0009dd49ac003.gif)

pee
6th Mar 2009, 08:19
No, no. I'm not the next one to write about these p*** things, no matter how my nick might sound to the English-speakers. :8

From Sweden (as informs thelocal.se)

Ryanair has plans to compete for routes on the ground in Sweden, according to the head of the Flygbussarna coach service.

In the latest edition of a transit industry newsletter, the head of Flygbussarna Airport Coaches, Mikael Bergkvist, writes that the Ireland-based low fare airline has inked a contract with a small bus company in Sweden.

According to Bergkvist, Ryanair plans to use the buses to shuttle its passengers from Stockholm to the Skavsta and Västerås airports, the airline’s two destinations in the Stockholm area.

Ryanair flights make up a large percentage of the air traffic to Skavsta, which is located about 100 kilometres south of Stockholm near the town of Nyköping.

So far, Flygbussarna has been the only bus company serving the airport, but Bergkvist is confident his company can handle the competition.

“We serve the entire airport and all the airlines and drive to Norrköping, Linköping, Örebro and the Stockholm suburbs, as well,” he said.

In Västerås, about 100 kilometres west of Stockholm, there are already several bus companies which fly passengers to Uppsala and Arlanda, among other places.

Attempts by the TT news agency to reach Ryanair were unsuccessful.

triplerotor
7th Mar 2009, 12:23
Yesterdays evening news on TV3, the main catalan station, led with a story about Ryanair being in negotiation with El Prat about opening a base there. Anyone heard anything about this?

Montilla es felicita perquè Ryanair vulgui establir una base permanent a l'aeroport del Prat (http://www.3cat24.cat/noticia/365472/catalunya/Montilla-es-felicita-perque-Ryanair-vulgui-establir-una-base-permanent-a-laeroport-del-Prat)

Could be an example of Ryan choosing their moment to pressure the airport on costs, new terminal about to open and all.

ssflyer
7th Mar 2009, 17:00
Can't see it,the big investment by GIR (new multi storey car park,airport hotel, totally refurbished check-in/arrivals) are all geared around FR long term commitment and the 6+ aircraft for the airport.
Many (but would guess 75%+) of summer PAX are for the Costa Brava, the resorts of which are 30mins+ away whilst BCN is 90+ mins away.
BCN is over served by UK scheduled ,regional flights but it may be a ploy by MOL to put pressure on GIR and REU!

triplerotor
7th Mar 2009, 17:30
What caught my attention was the fact that the news led with this story and TV3 went to the trouble of sending a reporter to Dub to interview MOL. They also interviewed Montilla seperately about it while he was in Prague. Someone must be pushing the story so it will be interesting to see if it progresses any further.

racedo
7th Mar 2009, 20:15
Triplerotor

Thanks for posting and not a shock as I said in post on previous page.

Airports need airlines who will grow passenger numbers and you will get that with Ryanair at the moment as everyone else is cutting back. Now is the time to grab the slots and build the routes because when the rebound comes those trying to catch up may find themselves already out of the market.

Fortune favours the brave.

strawberriesfield
8th Mar 2009, 10:17
O'Leary said that opening a base in BCN would not affect flights from GRO or REU.
Well, you can believe this if you wish, you can also believe that this is just a way for RYR to try and get a better deal from GRO/REU which will indeed happen ,after all the money that has been spent there ,they will do anything to keep RYR.
However, the main problem here in that argument is that a much higher percentage of RYR pax to GRO (don't really know for REU it would not be logical to fly there unless you were heading to Sitges or the S of Barcelona) are going to Barcelona rather than to the beach. In Summer (Jun- Sep) it is probably 50% for each. Oct-May it is at least 75% ,maybe more, to Barcelona.
If you as a passenger are given the choice, fly to your destination direct, or fly to another airport 90km (1hr/25e return on a bus) which will you choose ?
Regardless of O'Leary's assurances, the client will decide the issue, and as bookings for GRO reduce ,flights will be withdrawn/transfered to BCN.
I don't see any other outcome.
This is going to leave the Catalan politicians who authorised the massive investment in Terminal/Parking/Radar/Cat3ILS etc etc , looking very silly when the current contract with Ryanair runs out, and they go back to having the half a million passengers a year from Jun-Sep that they had prior to RYR pushing that figure up to 5.5million.

Jippie
8th Mar 2009, 11:20
Let's not forget that REU, GRO and BCN all have the same owner: AENA.
So I think the "competition" between those airpots is a bit different from what you expect.

strawberriesfield
8th Mar 2009, 12:59
That is broadly speaking true, however, the wonderful deal Ryanair has done in Girona is less to do with AENA and more to do with Catalan pride pushing GRO as "their" Catalan airport , as opposed to that "Spanish /AENA" administered one in BCN. Hence Ryanair now have a Catalan tape for the safety demo on the PA & for some time now "Girona" stickers plastered all along the side of a few aircraft.
I believe the deal they did in GRO was very "favourable" and indeed it may be renewed & continue. Simple passenger preference would tend to suggest otherwise, however there are indeed other "factors" (read cash) at play here.

frnikolai
8th Mar 2009, 16:44
Confirmed: Charging for toilets PR stunt, says Ryanair boss - The Irish Times - Sat, Mar 07, 2009 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0307/1224242448956.html)

It was just a PR stunt! Well, next time I'm on a Ryanair flight; I am going to use the toilet just for the sake of it - and it is free!!!

It would be great if Ryanair started flying to BCN, but I think they (as said) will use it to lower Girona and Reus prices. Still, it would compete head-on with EZY, BA, IB, etc...

Does anyone know if internet will come to RYR flights? Now phone calls, WiFi would be excellent.

Nikolai.

captplaystation
8th Mar 2009, 19:30
Nothing has been mentioned, but it can't be that difficult technically (can it ? ) & if even half reasonably priced I could imagine it being much more popular & cheaper than . . . "YEAH MATE I'M ON THE PLANE, YEAH ON THE PLANE ETC ETC ETC " :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: both with participants & those doomed to sit next to them.

45989
8th Mar 2009, 19:38
you pay AND deserve what you get...................

Flitefone
9th Mar 2009, 08:28
Err Emirates and Qantas already offer this GSM on board service, almost a year now. Ryanair is just catching up. BA will also offer on their LCY A318 services to New York.

Interesting that no-one seems to mind phones on EK but on Ryanair its a big deal.

Internet requires much more bandwidth, is very expensive and technically much more complex with the Satellite coverage.

FF

frnikolai
9th Mar 2009, 18:21
I was wondering that, but then that's the same thing with BA getting praise for the BA038 disaster; but FR not getting anything after Ciampino?!?!

I hope internet will come eventually!

Nikolai.

BAladdy
9th Mar 2009, 19:07
BA038 can hardly be called a disaster maybe if there was fatalities rhen you can call it a disaster. At best it was a accident or a incident.

cesare.caldi
9th Mar 2009, 19:43
Tomorrow Ryanair press conference at CAG to annunce new routes CAG-BSL and CAG-VLC

GnRdL
9th Mar 2009, 20:34
Grazie mille Cesare! Ti trovo dapertutto. :ok:
and other new route: REU - NRN.

CAG-VLC: from 30th April: Tu,Th,Sa
CAG-BSL: from 29th April: We,Su
REU-NRN: from 4th June: Tu,Th,Sa

FR195W
9th Mar 2009, 21:30
NRN-PSA too, also 3x weekly

Greets, fr195w.

Belboy
10th Mar 2009, 08:35
I see it reported that Jim Callaghan, Head of Legal Affairs at FR is leaving, announced the day after BB decided to leave and not long after their finance man joined Aer Lingus. One would suspect all might not be well if so many senior executives are going, or is this just part of the downsizing so common in our industry at the minute.

pee
10th Mar 2009, 08:53
Do not forget Benny Berger, the route development boss who made it public last Thursday (leaving to India?).

Sean Coyle... well, it's an old story already. But now two more key persons did announce the termination of their jobs. Benny Berger made it public on Thusday, Jim Callaghan handed the notice on Friday.

Insiders: do you have any idea why so many executives left/ will leave Ryanair in a short period of time?

I wasn't a devotee of Mr. Berger for his reluctance to develop the Finnish routes, but he did the extraordinary job for FR making good deals with tens if not hundreds of airports all over Europe. And who will handle the legal affairs as well as Jim Callaghan did so far?

befree
10th Mar 2009, 09:48
With all the routes cut and no money around to bride airlines to start new routes the job of route development must have been getting very hard. Why would a city pay to get a ryanair route when it will get dumped as soon as you stop paying startup costs.

Top execs have taken a good wage and are getting out before trouble. They will know how bad income is and how they are running out of places to put planes.

racedo
10th Mar 2009, 09:57
With all the routes cut and no money around to bride airlines to start new routes the job of route development must have been getting very hard.

Fuuny that when Airports are actually being quite open in advertising the new routes they want developed and talking about getting Ryanair in.

CPH and BCN are two of the recent ones.

befree
10th Mar 2009, 10:09
Fuuny that when Airports are actually being quite open in advertising the new routes they want developed

In the past airports gave FR a massive discount for a few years to get route going. Now money is tight they just tell the press ryanair is comming and hope they do. The problem is not airports not wanting new routes but that they cannot justify giving FR free landings.

sky9
10th Mar 2009, 11:50
I'm afraid this business model of Sale and Leaseback is pretty much standard across airlines plus many other businesses be it Pubs, Retailers, Train companies.

You are correct however no other airline has made it part of its business model.

Jippie
10th Mar 2009, 12:38
Surprised by the Ryanair flight timing once more.
With the addition of the NRN-REU route, a day trip to Barcelona would be possible, via NRN-REU-(Barcelona)-GRO-NRN or the other way around. But both flights leave at more or less the same time, I suppose that they loose out some potential traffic this way.

davidjohnson6
10th Mar 2009, 13:40
If living somewhere in the Netherlands not that close to the border (or living in Dusseldorf) and travelling to Barcelona, a route like NRN-REU sounds, relatively speaking, rather like middle-of-nowhere to middle-of-nowhere

Jippie
10th Mar 2009, 13:55
Timewise, after Eindhoven the closest airport to me is Weeze and it's not far away. Girona or Reus are not thát far from Barcelona either. If I can get there for one cent, the 30 euros or so for transport to the city and thus more or less the only costs involved are not really high. Okay, Amsterdam-Barcelona instead of Weeze-Girona would save me maybe an hour each way, but that's not a lot of time, is it?

But I always count all the transport costs involved and usually during the summer, an airline like Lufthansa is cheaper and better. Most of my Ryanair flight are purely flown by me because they are so cheap that it's more expensive to stay home. The average ticket price I've paid with Ryanair must be somewhere well below 10 euros all-in.

davidjohnson6
10th Mar 2009, 14:03
Maybe you can fly for 1 cent on a Tuesday in mid January... but Ryanair need to get an average fare of about 30 euros each way for this to be reasonably profitable. The people who pay 10 euros for a ticket are not the customers Ryanair want to encourage too much !

Suppose the round-trip costs 60 or 70 euros, with an extra 30 euros for the bus - would you still go for the day given all the travelling time to/from the airport ?

747boy
10th Mar 2009, 14:19
Ryanair to cease airport check-in from October - The Irish Times - Tue, Mar 10, 2009 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0310/breaking54.htm)

Skipness One Echo
10th Mar 2009, 14:23
Can someone clarify that those who don't have a printer at home can pick up their boarding pass at the airport?

davidjohnson6
10th Mar 2009, 14:31
Skipness - perhaps print the boarding card while at work ? Go to an Internet cafe ? Alternatively, your local public library will usually offer free Internet access with the facility to print a few pages.

Failing that, you can buy on the web a brand new laser printer for about 40 pounds, or a new inket for 30 pounds. If you don't want to spend 40 pounds, go look at Ebay...

Jippie
10th Mar 2009, 14:53
@davidjohnson6 (http://www.pprune.org/members/281509-davidjohnson6): No I wouldn't go for a day. But I'm sure they could attract a businessman(small company and the boss feels the travel expenses in his own pocket) from Weeze that needs to go to Barcelona for let's say 3 workdays.
Even if it does provide only a few extra passengers per flight there's no reason not to do it.

As for the Web check-in only, printing at home is no problem, but if you go away for longer then 2 weeks you will have the hassle to find a printer somewhere abroad. Might be easier not to fly Ryanair then.

davidjohnson6
10th Mar 2009, 15:14
Jippie - I agree that those going away for more than 2 weeks will need to find a printer. However, in most towns in Europe it is usually pretty easy to find an Internet cafe or public library, particularly in areas that get plenty of tourists. Do remember, that Ryanair doesn't fly to anywhere *that* remote in Europe.

Alternatively, if one is staying in a small village for 2 weeks on an annual summer holiday, it is quite likely that the hotel or campsite will provide a few PCs for the guests to use for a small fee. If you're really desperate, ask at reception if you can borrow their PC for a few mins to print a boarding card.

I would imagine that most people who can afford to fly around Europe will not want to lose access to email for 2+ weeks anyway.

Yes, there will be a small number of people for whom finding a printer might be very difficult, but the saving of no check-in desks should more than outweigh the loss of a small number of revenue sales

Skipness One Echo
10th Mar 2009, 15:20
Of course I can misuse the office printer for personal use but what a pain in the arse when abroad to have to worry about finding a bloody printer. Besides there are a LOT of people who will think have home printer and can't be arsed booking with them as a result.

Noxegon
10th Mar 2009, 15:43
Hidden in the small print is the telling fact that there will be a €5/£5 web checkin fee from May apparently for all passengers... yet another unavoidable charge that has been separated from the headline fare. When is this manure going to stop? The price quoted should be the price paid.

Jippie
10th Mar 2009, 15:45
"Except promotional fares"
Probably it will boost their revenue a bit. Well, it's always wise to look at the final price figure.

frfly
10th Mar 2009, 16:34
As far as I can gather...and I might be wrong as this is all brand new to everyone in and surrounding the company - this £5/€5 charge is for fast baggage drop customers (I think!)

Airport Kiosks at bases may be able to give you your boarding pass...but as yet still this might be incorrect. (as noone is really sure what is happening!!)

Noxegon
10th Mar 2009, 19:04
Could someone clued into such things advise me why it's even necessary to check in for a flight with no baggage? You've bought the ticket, and Ryanair swear they don't overbook, so why can't you enter passport details at the time of purchase and get your boarding card at that time?

Just curious of course...

Seat62K
10th Mar 2009, 19:13
I agree. There should be no reason why Ryanair can't extend online check-in beyond 14 days. With easyJet it's 60 days (I think) so why not at the time of booking?
Online check-in fee??? Surely this would not constitute an avoidable extra and would mean the end of 1 pence/cent fares. Am I missing something here?

LPFR
10th Mar 2009, 20:01
No.. Thats it Seat62k.

I think it's ridiculous. If they will be closing check-in desks to SAVE money, why begin to charge for online check-in now that they will end, and did not charged before while they were spending money with the check-in desks? If anything, it should be free now that it will be not avoidable to pay to check-in.

I will certainly check other airlines more often and check their total prices, as with all the fees Ryanair create, the final price may be almost the same, and others may be more convinient as well.

FA10
10th Mar 2009, 21:05
Could someone clued into such things advise me why it's even necessary to check in for a flight with no baggage? You've bought the ticket, and Ryanair swear they don't overbook, so why can't you enter passport details at the time of purchase and get your boarding card at that time?

Just curious of course...

Because the airline needs to know how many passengers will be on the flight and they need to have the names of the passengers.
With roughly 10 percent no-shows (passenger buys cheap ticket and does not fly) you would never know if you have got all passengers on board!
And I can tell you - it´s trouble every day to sort out missing web-check-in passengers.
If they allow you to check in months in advance the number of missing web-check-ins would explode, which in turn makes it even more difficult to get the final figures in the loadsheet!

Noxegon
10th Mar 2009, 21:24
Because the airline needs to know how many passengers will be on the flight and they need to have the names of the passengers. With roughly 10 percent no-shows (passenger buys cheap ticket and does not fly) you would never know if you have got all passengers on board! And I can tell you - it´s trouble every day to sort out missing web-check-in passengers.

Again, maybe I'm missing something obvious - but is there any reason why the computer system that identifies the barcode on the boarding pass at airport security couldn't be tied into this? I'd have thought this would be by far the easiest way to see who has actually turned up for the flight. Just wondering...

Jippie
10th Mar 2009, 21:59
Well they have that nice system at Dublin, but most Ryanairports don't have it.

Sparkynufc
10th Mar 2009, 22:41
Hi guys,

I am a still trying to understand Ryanair's business model, I wonder if you can help. :ugh:

I was just wondering why with Ryanair's profit margin was so incredibly high back in 2005, they felt the need to continue to expand and in turn knock down their profit margin by entering lots of new markets.

What benefit did the continuing expansion bring and why did they do it?

Thanks in advance for any feedback

racedo
11th Mar 2009, 00:23
Sparky

In 2005 they stated that Margins were excessively high and couldn't continue longer term. A business will love this short term but they have to plan for organic growth as its generally cheaper than buying another airline.

The agressive expansion of routes was based on looking at the way EU was developing and the opportunities that would result from this. Additionally there was a lot of new aircraft due bought post 9/11 that needed homes.

Capital cities are well served by existing airlines, as are secondary cities but there was always smaller cities and areas that couldn't really increase tourism and business opportunities as many countries tend to keep investments into big cities.

In a way agressive expansion has a cost as can do it too quickly and run out of cash or it stretches an organisation so much that people can not cope and the organisation collapses.

In Ryanair's case they have the cash and as an organisation they are pretty small but that allows them to move quickly. They make mistakes but the key is learning from a mistake.

Ultimately looking at the way the legacy carriers have contracted i.e. BA or disappeared Sabena / Swiss / Austrian / Alitalia there was always a model where being nimble would help because you are not stuck with heritage costs and unions who wish to preserve the status quo.

They are continuing to expand but now with many major airports like BCN / CPH etc losing numbers there are opportunities that will develop here. Locking in slots at these airports will start to hurt legacy carriers and it will happen.

I guess the benefit can be meaured in many areas where an airport existed in name only before and you are getting 50 - 100,000 passengers going through it.

Tourism is more effective in creating local jobs in economically disadvantaged areas than direct state aid. Quite simply money spent in tourism tends to stay local and is more likely to be respent locally. Where as state aid can have political strings attached or just get stolen by the mafia as in Italy.

I think the Ryanair of 2016 will bear little resemblance to the Ryanair of 2009 but then again there is a huge diff between 2009 Ryanair and 1999 Ryanair.

Ultimately Ryanair board is there to serve the interests of its shareholders and the agressive building of market share will stop in about 5 years and they will be more interested in dividend policy etc.

MOL is fond of saying there will be 4-5 majors in Europe eventually with AF / LH / FR / Easyjet and maybe BA with quite a few secondary airlines in niche markets. Personally think BA and Easyjet may get tied together but that just a guess.

Ryanair I think just happened to be in the right place at the right time and particularly post 9/11 made calls that would have bankrupted them had passengers stopped flying. As the Americans say its betting the farm and hoping it works.

Their willingness to look at every activity and see whether its a revenue generator or a cost and take action is pretty unique for a service industry BUT is pretty common in manufacturing. This enables them to develop ancillary revenue from everything you can think of.

Like them or hate them they are the most successful Airline in Europe over the last 10 years and commercially are way ahead of their competitors in thinking of how to generate a profit.

Stand by for the thrashing of the busines model now.

ryanair1
11th Mar 2009, 05:43
extra a/c at BHD likely announcement this month

2nd a/c at BOH likely announcement this month

pee
11th Mar 2009, 08:03
Just checked the news at the FR Irish/UK sites if there are any tryumphant texts about Aer Lingus' losses. Nothing as yet. But look what I found: Upp för Ryanair, ner för SAS. Do you understand? I do, it's in Swedish. But why is it published along with the English-language news and not at the Swedish site? So happy there?

EGAC_Ramper
11th Mar 2009, 11:48
Extra A/c for BHD?

If true what would the likely routes be for it to exist there?


Regards

Charlie Roy
11th Mar 2009, 12:00
Just checked the news at the FR Irish/UK sites if there are any tryumphant texts about Aer Lingus' losses. Nothing as yet.

There's an animation in the top of the left column offering free seats because of the Aer Lingus losses, it links to a news article.
As shareholders in Aer Lingus, I wonder to what extent Ryanair regrets attempting an Aer Lingus takeover, and now owning so many of its shares that won't pay dividends for a couple of years at least.

Charlie Roy
11th Mar 2009, 14:50
Extra A/c for BHD?
If true what would the likely routes be for it to exist there?

Well if they're sticking to the original plan from 2 years ago the following are under consideration:
Ryanair to start flying from Belfast City Airport (http://news.cheapflights.co.uk/flights/2007/06/ryanair-to-star.html)

Liverpool - exists
East Midlands - exists
Bristol - exists
Paris
Barcelona
Riga
Brussels
Rome
Katowice


BUT, the plans are likely to have changed to reflect their current relationships and deals with airports, and what's more the runway isn't long enough for some of the above mentioned destionations I think.

BOU_PAX
11th Mar 2009, 15:06
BHD - BOH has been rumored numerous times since Jet2 stopped flying BFS - BOH, interesting with both airports having new planes delivered soon to see if this route does happen.

stupot7783
11th Mar 2009, 15:09
BHD-BHX would be good, give Flybe a run for their money!

Sparkynufc
11th Mar 2009, 15:18
Thanks for the response racedo (http://www.pprune.org/members/285039-racedo)!

I saw an IATA article on it here as well

http://www.iata.org/NR/rdonlyres/FCD02107-B81D-4064-AF58-2B42CA9196D7/0/Profits_and_Size_Briefing_June2006.pdf

Niche markets will have the highest margins. As airlines deploy their
competitive advantages to other markets and grow their network, overall profit margins will fall, as their advantage diminishes in new markets, but it makes economic sense to expand until absolute profits stop growing – if those
operating profits are at least covering the airline’s cost of capital and tax.

Sparkynufc
11th Mar 2009, 15:28
Thanks for the response racedo (http://www.pprune.org/members/285039-racedo)

I also found this report by IATA on profit margins as well

Niche markets will have the highest margins. As airlines deploy their
competitive advantages to other markets and grow their network, overall profit margins will fall, as their advantage diminishes in new markets, but it makes economic sense to expand until absolute profits stop growing – if those operating profits are at least covering the airline’s cost of capital and tax.

MUFC_fan
11th Mar 2009, 16:53
Probably use the aircraft to free up others at EMA, PIK etc. so they can fly from their respective bases.

When will FR be able to fly full loads out of BHD? BOH would be a good bet.

frfly
11th Mar 2009, 17:45
Maybe EDI and LGW might follow. Both long established BE routes but I think its time FR scared them away a little more.

EDI is also rumoured to have A/C 5 in July.

eastern wiseguy
11th Mar 2009, 18:08
BHD-BHX would be good, give Flybe a run for their money!


Doubt that City would allow that and upset Flybe.


Riga Katowice

I would suggest that as a HUGE proportion of Eastern Europeans have either gone home or moved elsewhere in the EU that these would be as big a turkey as .....an early morning PIK...allegedly:O

frnikolai
11th Mar 2009, 21:30
I think it is a excellent idea, but £/€5 per person/per flight fee is unavoidable? So surely this has got to be in the advertised price?

Nikolai

ALLMCC
11th Mar 2009, 21:36
Doubt if BHD would be too worried about upsetting Flybe given their opposition to the runway extension plans.

daz211
11th Mar 2009, 21:47
With all these extra A/C due to arrive I dont see why
Ryanair dont think STN-MAN and its about time they
had a long hard look/think about STN-LPA a very nice money
maker for the winter months.

eastern wiseguy
11th Mar 2009, 23:02
Doubt if BHD would be too worried about upsetting Flybe given their opposition to the runway extension plans.


Blimey Mr Mc...they will be drumming you off the Bypass bridge with seditious talk like that!!:eek::eek:

Sikpupi
11th Mar 2009, 23:40
On the new Irish 'Air Travel Tax'...does anyone know if Ryanair are charging this for departures on and after 30th March??? My understanding is that the AIRLINE has to collect and account for it. Are Ryanair playing ball in the booking system on this....I know that MOL has dropped flights at SNN because of it but am wondering is he going to collect the Tax for the Government on his remaining routes out of Ireland.

Sikky

EGAC_Ramper
12th Mar 2009, 00:54
Certainly Beuvais and Charleroi should be possible with decent load out of City currently as for the other no chance until and concrete extension happens. If a few more routes opened up and more a/c I might be tempted to return home! :E

As for the loads inbound they have changed to 170 allowable and outbound they are not restricted on "Loads" as in pax but its more the case of allowable fuel to reach destinations. With the routes served currently thats no problem, its going farther afield hence the need for extended runway to allow the required fuel+pax.

Regards

conradmueller
12th Mar 2009, 07:09
With all these extra A/C due to arrive I dont see why
Ryanair dont think STN-MAN
As you knwo, neither STN-MAN with Air Berlin nor STN-BLK with FR worked.

Wellington Bomber
12th Mar 2009, 07:22
Daz

Stansted - Man was operated recently witha J41 fom Eastern with decent times 3 daily. The loads were nearly always single figures. And you now propose to put a 737-800 with a 180 seats on to go blasting through the skys at about 17000 ft because that is nearly about as high as you would go on such a short hop, do you work in a bank by any chance in Edinburgh

Based
12th Mar 2009, 14:01
On the new Irish 'Air Travel Tax'...does anyone know if Ryanair are charging this for departures on and after 30th March???

They started charging it pretty much immediately after it was announced.

davidjohnson6
12th Mar 2009, 18:18
Are FR trying to make light of the noise about the pound to pee talk and joke about it, or are they actually being serious ?

The phrase 'when you are in a hole, stop digging' comes to mind here

Ryanair.com - News : Passengers to Suggest Next Discretionary Charge (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=09&month=mar&story=pro-en-120309)

frnikolai
12th Mar 2009, 19:52
Yet again, another PR stunt. As much as RYR probably would like to charge for everything; they simply can't.

I have however, given my suggestions - which are outrageous! But if I win €1000 I'll be very happy.

At least the staff at Ryanair can take a break laughing about the suggestions!

Also, charging to check-in? As I asked, is that allowed considering you HAVE to check-in? Which means it must be put in the advertised price. And, will the charge to take baggage rise or fall?

As it stands like this:
(Return prices quoted)
€10 to check-in
€20 to take a bag
Total €30

That is no different from when they had the desks open? Surely €10 to check-in is not fair. It should be free now that the desks have gone!

What are the suggestions on this?

Nikolai.

Dinis1970
12th Mar 2009, 22:00
Has anybody heard if FR will open the base in Porto (OPO)?
I have been told that it will be announced soon.

ryanair1
13th Mar 2009, 04:18
OPO is still being finalised, but unlikely to be launched as a base anytime soon.

frnikolai
13th Mar 2009, 07:47
Does anyone know if the charge to take baggage is going to remain the same or fall? How can €5 to check-in be allowed?!?!

captplaystation
13th Mar 2009, 08:58
As I understand it OPO came very close to being a base last Summer but then there were some political shennanigans. The way it was put to me the local government were all for it , but the central government (perhaps mindful of the possible effect on TAP ) scuppered it, & apparently their cooperation was paramount to the deal going through.
Don't know how / if that can be resolved.
"Very full brown paper bag" anyone ? :rolleyes:

medanoman
13th Mar 2009, 16:42
Are FR trying to make light of the noise about the pound to pee talk and joke about it, or are they actually being serious ?

The phrase 'when you are in a hole, stop digging' comes to mind here

Ryanair.com - News : Passengers to Suggest Next Discretionary Charge (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=09&month=mar&story=pro-en-120309)


Not sure what others think; I'm probably just being an old fart, but it annoys me greatly that Ryanair appear to be joking about safety; posting the now famous spoof safety card on their own website, plus the various other 'suggestions' about safety cards, oxygen masks, emergency exits etc. Heaven help them if they ever have a serious incident, that is all I can say.

My proposal for a discretionary charge is as follows - a discretionary charge to NOT fly with Ryanair. This would be calculated as the difference between Ryanair's fare and the fare of an alternative airline, offset of course by the fact that I need to pay extra to check in, to have a pee, plus of course the taxi fares that I'd otherwise need to pay to get me from the Ryanair airstrip to the city that I actually want to travel to...

suasdaguna
13th Mar 2009, 17:04
likewise, I think FR are making a mockery of safety with its' what it costs to evacuate safety card. If I was the IAA I'd come down on them like a ton of bricks but alas I'm not, so they'll continue as they are.

racedo
13th Mar 2009, 17:18
So did anybody notice the date when the competition closes ? 30th March

And the Likely date that the winning entry will be released.? I'm guessing April 1st.

eu01
13th Mar 2009, 17:55
Has anybody heard if FR will open the base in Porto (OPO)?Don't know about Porto, but something SHOULD be announced soon, otherwise FR will not be using all its planes even during the summer season. :confused:

The Real Slim Shady
13th Mar 2009, 18:30
Next base PFO!

adam12345
13th Mar 2009, 19:00
Next base PFO!

Is it me or did Ryanair say a couple of years back they had no plans to fly to Cyprus as the charges at the airports where to expensive. I could be wrong! :confused:

eu01
13th Mar 2009, 19:14
Well, they might have negotiated a bit and could struck a deal. But FR competing so close to where Sir Stelios' family roots are?

medanoman
14th Mar 2009, 07:45
Knowing Ryanair, they will probably fly into Nicosia or Akrotiri :)

captplaystation
14th Mar 2009, 08:26
To those shocked :eek: or offended := by the competition / safety card. . .

do you remember that thing you may/may not have been born with called " a sense of humour " ? please try utilising it . :oh:

suasdaguna
14th Mar 2009, 08:34
capt playstation, yes we all need a sense of humour in these dark days and good on FR re paying for a crap etc, but there are some boundarys one does'nt cross imho like the safety card one. Hillarous for kids just out of college humouring the bold michael but for the rest of us it's just touching cloth.

Seat62K
14th Mar 2009, 09:38
What I find amazing in the "100% web check in" press release is the assertion that this will lead to savings which will be passed on to passengers.

Now, speaking as someone who checks in online and doesn't take hold baggage all I can see is an increase of £10 per trip (except those using "promotional" fares). I'm sceptical that we'll see an identical reduction across-the-board in non-promotional fares (i.e., fares before the addition of this new fee).

frnikolai
14th Mar 2009, 11:48
I probably will bet this will have to change - mainly due to EU regulations.

Firstly, €/£10 added to the fare - which can't be changed as it is needed must be included in the fare price; you see first.

Secondly, it is going to make the tickets more expensive; and for "75% of passengers" - adding €/£10 is going to make the fares less attractive.

Thirdly, the charge will be waived for on-line/0 bags customers. This allows them to continue advertising £5 seats etc and for customers to be encouraged take no carry on bags.

Concluding, I would be very surprised to see the new charge brought in. I suspect that it was another.... PR stunt.

Just what I am thinking, adding €10 onto the ticket per person is not going to sell them any more tickets.

Nikolai.

Seat62K
14th Mar 2009, 12:30
There's nothing in the press release to indicate that the fee will be waived for "no bags" passengers (calling them "online check in/no bags" pax is somewhat redundant as all pax will check in online).

What I fail to understand is the logic of a change which - if the press release is to be believed and will not lead to an increase in fares - only moves £5/5 euro per sector from the "base fare" to an "add on", especially as it could no doubt antagonise existing/potential passengers. Furthermore, since when was check in an avoidable option?

We'll just have to wait and see if these savings are passed on in the form of "even lower air fares next winter".

[P.S. Has anyone noticed, for example, that driving licences will no longer be accepted for UK domestic flights? My understanding is that this form of ID is currently acceptable for passengers who check in at the airport.]

frnikolai
14th Mar 2009, 13:11
Well after the £1 toilet fee saga, the £5 check-in fee will make a field day for some news agencies.

They can NOT charge this without making there fares advertised including this.

1 MILLION SEATS AT £5!!!

1 MILLION SEATS AT £5 PLUS £5 CHECK-IN FEE.

Which one sounds better? Check-in WILL be free for those with hand luggage; just wait and see.

It is the stupidest thing I've ever heard - and I hear a lot of stupid things. To charge £5 for check-in.

To be honest as well, that press release is slightly ambigous, and I am confident it was another PR stunt.

Nikolai.

kingston_toon
14th Mar 2009, 13:28
I suspect "FARES FOR £5" will continue to be just that, and any "no tax" or "special offer" fare will have free online checkin. But a standard £0.00 + tax (£28.27 at Stansted) fares will command a £5 fee for checking in. Most of my fares are promos so this won't affect me too much, but certainly where it's a choice between a standard FR fare and an EZY / anyone else fare, the gap will narrow.

frnikolai
14th Mar 2009, 13:40
I don't think FR are going to let EZY suddenly come with even lower fares and seriously affect their business. EZY eventually will have to put up fares to cope with the higher airport landing costs, plus the fuel bill.

ryanair1
14th Mar 2009, 15:37
if you WANT to travel cheap you can.

If you WANT the extras you can pay.

either way - option 1 - (no extra's) you can fly for next to nothing

option 2 - all extras added - still cheaper than the competition, cheaper than it was 15 years ago and probably better reliability and punctuality than the competition.

davidjohnson6
14th Mar 2009, 16:01
all extras added - still cheaper than the competition
ryanair1 - I find this statement somewhat misleading.

If when measuring the competition, one requires the competing airline to fly the same airport pair at within a 2 hour window, this leads to a very narrow set of competitor flights. I suspect that many people regard the competition as being rather broader than this.

As an example - suppose FR fly from STN to GRO at 6:30 am. By the FR definition, a flight from LTN to BCN on Easyjet at 7 am is not a competitor flight.

By changing the definition of 'competitor flight' enough times, one can always claim to be the cheapest. However, a very specific legal definition is not a good proxy for what customers define as a competitor flight.

globetrotter79
14th Mar 2009, 16:44
With reference to davidjohnson's above example, I seem to recall Ryanair some years ago fighting tooth and nail to have various additional "out of town" airports classed as being within the same city zone/generic city code. Hence HHN now considered a Frankfurt airport, CRL now considered a Brussels airport etc etc.

Back to the above GRO vs BCN example, then, funny how Ryanair can selectively ignore their own argument when it suits them in comparing their flights with "competitor" flights between airports within the same "city pair".

That smacks to me rather of having cake and eating it...

racedo
14th Mar 2009, 18:01
With reference to davidjohnson's above example, I seem to recall Ryanair some years ago fighting tooth and nail to have various additional "out of town" airports classed as being within the same city zone/generic city code.

Fraid not as it was Fraport then owners of Frankfurt and Hahn classifying them as Frankfurt airports.

LH complained and it went to court and LH lost.

frnikolai
14th Mar 2009, 18:59
I will say, that Easyjet fares are seeming very attractive. I have a course in Barcelona for 5 days - Ryanair was £50, Easyjet £70 including a bag. I need a bag with Ryanair, so add £28.50, now £9.50 for MasterCard payment. Total £88. Now add another £10 just to check-in!

I think that RYR need to evaluate whether all these charges are good or bad for business.

I still do love RYR!

Nikolai.

P.S

£18 more - I did go for FR as I need to be their on-time.

Seat62K
14th Mar 2009, 19:57
To return to whether Ryanair is cheaper than its competitors, I am astonished at how costly some Ryanair flights can be. I'll give the same example as in a previous post of mine: when Ryanair released its summer, 2009 seats, for the dates I was looking at it was more expensive to fly Stansted-Alicante-Stansted on Ryanair than Gatwick-Alicante-Gatwick with BA and in Club Europe! Now, the BA fare didn't last and I assume that Ryanair's fares for these dates will have come down (I haven't returned to look) but the point remains.

The spread of fares which Ryanair charges for the same route can be truly remarkable. The knack is knowing how to play the system to your advantage and, I'll admit, I don't always get it right! It helps, of course, not to have to fly and to be flexible in relation to dates.

daz211
14th Mar 2009, 20:11
Ryanair have better timed flights for people traveling with young kids
from for eg PMI, I know people who would pay double the EZY price
for better timed flights.

Also I find Ryanair to be VERY good when it comes to on time flights.

I have just booked flights for two to PMI from STN in mid May for a total of £12 rtn thats £6 each and yes just £3 each way the flight departs at 1150 and landing back at STN at 1725, VERY good if you have kids.

Everyone on this site knows I live and breath Ryanair but that is for
one reason and one reason only... they are the BEST when it comes to
. Low fares
. On time flights
. Best timed flights

I have used Ryanair for many years traveling more than 70 rtn flights
I have only EVER had one problem, A delay of 3 hrs due to a tech
A/C, we had to wait for an A/C to be flown in to take us home.

So again Ryanair good work keep it up :ok:.

frnikolai
14th Mar 2009, 20:37
I thought £18 was worth it, plus I prefer RYR to EZY.

Some EZY flights are cheaper, but the vast majority aren't. But as I said FR adding £10 may close the gap...

I also live and breath RYR! I wish they flew to Moscow!!!

Nikolai.

Seat62K
14th Mar 2009, 20:41
STN-PMI-STN, £3 each way?

You paid too much!!

[50% too much! I saw £2 each way. You woz robbed!]

daz211
14th Mar 2009, 20:45
I know I was robbed it was £1 each way but by time I sorted out
getting time off it was up to £3 I was gutted :{.

daz211
14th Mar 2009, 22:48
I play by the rules, NO extras at all, Ryanairs hand baggage is
just right for me, no need for checked in baggage, well not for a week
on the beach anyway.

I did not intend to take a holiday in May as I have booked Las vegas in
Sep but the price was to tempting for me... roll on May:cool:.

loveJet
15th Mar 2009, 01:59
i love Ryanair and all who sail in her

davidjohnson6
15th Mar 2009, 02:22
Looks like PPRuNe has merged with another website ! :}

Ryanair Fanclub! (http://www.ryanairfanclub.com/)

Skipness One Echo
15th Mar 2009, 11:09
Ryanairs hand baggage is
just right for me, no need for checked in baggage, well not for a week
on the beach anyway.
Single man of a certain age surely?

Seat62K
15th Mar 2009, 11:34
He may be single, but I don't think his name is Shirley.

frnikolai
15th Mar 2009, 12:26
If RYR wanted no-one to check-in a bag, then just put the allowance up to 15 kilos. Or do what EZY do - no limit! Just reasonable.

Really for 1 week in the beach - I need trunks, short-sleeve shirts, shorts, t-shirts, sandals without the socks!!! I am sure 10 kilos will cover it.

Single travellers are the best travellers.

Nikolai.

45989
15th Mar 2009, 12:42
davidjohnson6...

Brilliant. I nearly pissed myself laughing but luckily remembered i had no coins for the door.
Allegedly 50 mill pax and only 220 "fans"????

frnikolai
15th Mar 2009, 13:03
I think you mean that those 50 million people are the fans - after all they have chosen to fly with Ryanair.

It does seem that more people fly with Ryanair than any other airline.

Nikolai.

Michael SWS
15th Mar 2009, 14:06
£18 for 1 adult 2 kids
£47.50 for bag + check-in feesWhich demonstrates nicely that Ryanair tries its best to mislead passengers who are not as familiar with its cheating ways as most on this forum.

frnikolai
15th Mar 2009, 17:03
No, it cost me £18. But I needed a bag; so I paid for it. Why should that other poster pay for other people's costs - when he won't be using or needing it?

Still 3 people going to PMI for 1 week at that price is exceptional.

Nikolai.

Michael SWS
15th Mar 2009, 17:06
Still 3 people going to PMI for 1 week at that price is exceptional.Are you forgetting the cost of accommodation, meals and other incidentals?

frnikolai
15th Mar 2009, 19:03
Fair enough, I will be booking a hotel, needing taxi's, plus food and spending money. But frankly, £60 flights are unheard of in some countries.

It still is going to be a cheap holiday, which I, and my kids are looking forward too.

Credit crunch? What credit crunch?

Nikolai.

jamesp
15th Mar 2009, 20:15
if mol is charging to use the toilets during the flights does any one know how much inc taxes and fr's charges? as i'm flying with them 4 times this year and need to know NOT to drink whilst on board!!!

daz211
15th Mar 2009, 20:26
I have booked a 3 star hotel ALL INCLUSIVE and a transfer
along with my flights the total is £260 let me break that down...

2 x rtn flights STN-PMI-STN,
2 x rtn transfers to Calas de Mallorca,
1 x room in an ALL INCLUSIVE hotel.

I have since looked to see what price this would have cost me as a
package, the cheaperst was £397.87

So a week in Mallorca with hotel and all meals and drinks for £130 each
is very good value which ever way you look at it ...

MUFC_fan
15th Mar 2009, 20:33
VERY cheap!

I wouldn't pay that much extra just for ATOL but to be honest, if it was <£50pp for the package deal I would have recommended that.

Great bargain hunting!:ok:

davidjohnson6
15th Mar 2009, 22:40
I know I'm not a mod, but...

Would people be kind enough to try to keep to the topic, rather than letting it drift to 'How little I paid for my summer holiday' ?

Hawk
15th Mar 2009, 23:06
David has a point. The Mods have posted about this type of thread drift recently with reference to issues that would be better solved by contacting a travel agent or the Airline direct.

The same applys to posts discussing PERSONAL travel arrangements such as individual deals on "packages" and fares that might be more appropriate posted in Passengers and Self Loading Freight Forum.

Our preference always is for Ryanair to be discussed within the WIDER framework of the Industry ie. routes, business model, competition, fares, fleet, work conditions, employment, etc.

We will keep an eye on it for now.

Thank you
AA&R Mods

frnikolai
16th Mar 2009, 08:03
Moving right along...

Has anyone now noticed that FR are stopping the carriage of unaccompanied minors? I think they could find another charge here?

A carriage fee?

Nikolai.

Cyrano
16th Mar 2009, 13:24
Ryanair confirmed that these latest cuts were being implemented in response to the decision of the Government owned Irish Aviation Authority to increase ATC charges by 12% this summer, at more than 12 times the rate of inflation.

OK, help me out here. First of all ,the IAA published their 2009 charges in January (here (http://www.iaa.ie/index.jsp?p=93&n=96&a=578)), so that's not exactly news. Second, the charge is the same for all three State airports. And third, the terminal nav charge is €2.53 per tonne. Assuming that's the one that's gone up by 12% (can't find a reference to last year's charge, unfortunately), then that'll add...ooh, 2.53 x 12% x 78 tonnes = €23.60 to the cost of a 737-800 turnaround at Dublin.

Sure, Ryanair wants to keep all their costs down and/or push them on to others. But this perennial scrabble around for an excuse, any excuse, on which to hang more route cuts seems (to me) to hide the subtext, "Look, the honest truth is that a lot of our routes are completely marginal. In the current climate they're so marginal, in fact, that an increase in operating costs of twenty-something euro per round-trip is enough to push no fewer than four routes over the edge. Or at least it'll give us an excuse for closing these routes that will be credible (to the ill-informed, or to those too lazy to look at the facts), because our self-image and need to keep talking up our success doesn't allow us just to admit that no airline gets its route decisions 100% right and that some of our routes aren't working out. And that would be fine if we could just think of something to do with the aircraft we have on order."

I realise that I'm in the FR fanclub forum ;) but personally I find watching, analysing and discussing the "real" FR achievements, limitations, goings-on, manipulation, PR spin, strategy etc, infinitely more interesting than the sterile "Ryanair's great. Everything they do is right. Anyone who disagrees is misguided. I got to fly to Girona for 2p with them so they must be great" blather which punctuates this thread (and of which I'm sure there'll be a couple more along before too long ;) ).

FA10
16th Mar 2009, 13:31
Moving right along...

Has anyone now noticed that FR are stopping the carriage of unaccompanied minors? I think they could find another charge here?

A carriage fee?

Nikolai.

Ryanair does not carry any unaccompanied minors (if they ever have, then a long time ago).
The minimum age to fly alone currently is 14 years, from 1. October it will be 16 years.
Transport of UMs can be very tricky - just imagine the requirement to find the pick up person (and the trouble if that person doues not show up).
UMs will never fit into RYR operations with their short turn arounds.

frnikolai
16th Mar 2009, 13:40
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I am reading that children, which are under 18 - must be with an over 18.

From the 1st of October, it seems that RYR will not allow children on-board without someone over 18.

If anyone could clarify that for me, that will be very gratefully recieved.

Nikolai.

Copied directly from the website:

Ryanair does not carry unaccompanied minors (under 14 years). Escort and special facilities are NOT available. Currently Ryanair carry unaccompanied minors aged 14 or 15 years ONLY upon completion and signature of a form of indemnity at check-in of EACH departure airport, by a parent or guardian. PLEASE NOTE - Ryanair will no longer be accepting unaccompanied minors under the age of 16 for travel from the 1st October 2009 onwards.
Children under the age of 14 years must always be accompanied on the same reservation by a passenger over 16 years. PLEASE NOTE FOR TRAVEL FROM THE 1st OCTOBER 2009 ALL CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 16 YEARS MUST TRAVEL ACCOMPANIED BY AN ADULT (OVER 16 YEARS) BOOKED ON THE SAME RESERVATION.

It is confusing to read, as far as I have understood it - children under 16; must be with someone over 16 to travel. Is that the intention?

For example, could a 16 year old travel with a 13 year old?

As far as I can tell, they are just changing the 14 and 15 year old indemnity travel option.

Thank you.
Nikolai.

Edit: To be blunt, we do not need to know the details and although you are obviously seeking guidance we suggest you make direct contact with Ryanair. To be blunt again - we cannot allow a
continuous Q&A session.

Hawk, put it very well yesterday - please take heed.

FA10
16th Mar 2009, 13:52
from the FR "terms and conditions":

"Children under the age of 14 years must always be accompanied on the same reservation by a passenger over 16 years. PLEASE NOTE FOR TRAVEL FROM THE 1st OCTOBER 2009 ALL CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF 16 YEARS MUST TRAVEL ACCOMPANIED BY AN ADULT (OVER 16 YEARS) BOOKED ON THE SAME RESERVATION. "

FA10
16th Mar 2009, 13:56
we have crossed...
Nikolai, you are right. A 16 year old may accompany a 13 year old (even after 1. October).
16 year olds are also allowed to accompany e.g. blind people.

rgds
FA10

pee
16th Mar 2009, 14:24
this perennial scrabble around for an excuse, any excuse, on which to hang more route cuts seems (to me) to hide the subtext [...], because our self-image and need to keep talking up our success doesn't allow us just to admit that no airline gets its route decisions 100% right and that some of our routes aren't working out.
This is called demagogy. Well, the word is derived from Ancient Greek, so FR is surely pertaining to a very old tradition, but the intentions are clear, aren't they?

errare humanum est, sed perseverare diabolicum

FLYboh
16th Mar 2009, 16:13
Taken from their news page today.....

From July 2009 Ryanair will close four routes from Dublin to Basel, Doncaster, Oporto and Teesside, and reduce frequencies on eight more routes from Dublin to Aberdeen, Biarritz, Billund, Bournemouth, Carcassonne, East Midlands, Malaga and Rome (Ciampino). These cuts will result in one additional based aircraft (five in total) being switched from high cost Dublin Airport to a low cost Ryanair European base in July.

davidjohnson6
16th Mar 2009, 16:23
I had imagined routes in July + August from Dublin to Oporto, Biarritz, Carcassonne, Malaga and Rome would be doing quite well and that other routes would have been cut / reduced instead, but in the absence of any figures, I guess someone at FR HQ has better information than me.

Thinking laterally, would it be valid to read between the lines here and view this as a sign of deeper issues ?

Skipness One Echo
16th Mar 2009, 17:01
He's cutting back Dublin??? Why not just gift it to Aer Lingus? Surely one would have thought that their home base was worth fighting for or is it not worth the candle any more?

befree
16th Mar 2009, 17:14
Ryanair are going into self destruct mode. Any increase in tax or charges is being used as reasion to ground planes. How can they double pax in 5 years when they keep cutting routes.

Is there something going on that we do not know? Does MOL have something to do with 30 planes? Are they realy in a bad way and having to cut capacity?

MUFC_fan
16th Mar 2009, 17:17
They operate to such small margins per passenger that they need to make every penny they can.

BA fly approx. 2.5 million on average a month and were making (before the crunch) £700m a quarter (ish) while FR would fly 5m and make much less (not sure what it was but nothing per passenger that BA were).

You may argue that this includes F/J passengers but they still must be included when comparing as there is no special dispensation on these taxes for premium passengers, in fact they are mostly higher although F/J passengers are more of an inelastic market.

racedo
16th Mar 2009, 18:16
Any increase in tax or charges is being used as reasion to ground planes. How can they double pax in 5 years when they keep cutting routes.

Not grounding planes in the summer.

Well they introduce new routes first and given the number introduced already this year V one cuts they still way ahead with new routes.

Dublin route cuts are sending clear message to Irish Govt re passenger numbers that if you continue pumping up increases in tax and allowing DAA add more increases for a €1 Billion terminal there is a price to pay.

SAM-EMA
16th Mar 2009, 18:35
But the EMA route isnt even operated by DUB based a/c?

SAM-EMA

Charlie Roy
16th Mar 2009, 18:45
The East Midlands to Ireland market will see a drastic decrease between 2008 and 2009. Strange :ouch:

SNN - EMA Axed!
ORK - EMA Axed!
DUB - EMA Reduced

Charlie Roy
16th Mar 2009, 19:10
I'm sure Aer Lingus will be very happy to hear:

Basel: axed (Zurich should benefit, Geneva may benefit)
Carcassonne: reduced (Toulouse may benefit)
East Midlands: reduced (Birmingham may benefit)
Malaga: reduced (yields to Malaga will improve)
Rome: reduced (yields / load factor to Rome will improve)

frnikolai
16th Mar 2009, 20:09
So whilst Ryanair sends a message to the Irish goverment - Aer Lingus throws all of its cards up into the aer and hopes that it will pay off; it wont.

The Irish goverment, will have to stand down on the €10 tourist tax. As how many passengers does RYR bring in? A lot.

I think Ryanair are being very clever, Aer Lingus thinks they are getting the upper hand; when it reality. They are going down.

MOL is not stupid, so this has been done for a reason - he couldn't get Aer Lingus; so he'll kill them off.

Nikolai.

befree
16th Mar 2009, 20:26
Why will the irish government have to backdown? The big loser from ryanair flying less will be ryanair. The extra tax income will make up for the other lost income and it is only those on a very tight budget who would stop flying due to the tax. In the UK the departure tax took just a percent or two of the numbers flying. The big hit is from the world wide meltdown.

I think Ryanair was very clever a few years ago but has lost the plot. If goverments just ignore them what will they do? The vested intrests are not in keeping Ryanair strong.

frnikolai
16th Mar 2009, 20:30
This isn't really about people flying out of Ireland, mainly those flying in.

What is going to hurt them more? No one going to Ireland - or Ryanair bringing in the pax?

Ryanair will always be strong, regardless of where. The UK goverment wouldn't dare put a tax on travelling like that - as if they did it would be suicidal.

€10 tax - will finish Irish tourism, and that is fact.

Ryanair haven't lost the plot - May I remind you 60 million people flew with them in 2008. That's more than any other European airline.

Nikolai.

chrism20
16th Mar 2009, 21:04
The UK goverment wouldn't dare put a tax on travelling like that - as if they did it would be suicidal.




It is called APD and has been £10 for about the last 2 years in the UK

Also what benefit of EI going under is there to FR? They own a very large chunk of this company and I would imagine FR's shareholders will at somepoint wake up and ask the question 'why are you trying to destroy a company that we own 30% (or whatever it is) of?' Whilst there would be financial gain to FR as they would then have a monopoly there would also be the substantial loss of millions of € if it were to end up bust.

waffler
16th Mar 2009, 21:10
Surely the UK government already have a £10 tax on travel out of the UK. The irish Gov. tax to the UK is less than 10 euro which is payable by the customer not Ryanair, who get to keep it if the passanger does not travel.In reality this is Ryanair not having the courage to admit what people already know. you cannot fill an 189 seater aircraft from Dublin to Basle or Doncaster even for free in this economic climate.Where will they place 5 extra aircraft in addition to their 40+ new aircraft where they will make money ? I dont know and worryingly, neither does Ryanair now that Alitalia have not collapsed.

eastern wiseguy
16th Mar 2009, 21:16
Where will they place 5 extra aircraft in addition to their 40+ new aircraft where they will make money ?


Don't worry....there's always the runway extension at BHD errrrrrrrrrr:E:E

Skipness One Echo
16th Mar 2009, 21:30
The Irish goverment, will have to stand down on the €10 tourist tax. As how many passengers does RYR bring in? A lot.

Can we assume you don't know the numbers you are trumpeting then? The £10 tax you say the UK Government wouldn't dare bring in was brought in a while back as APD which has already been pointed out. Guys if you have facts then bring them to the forum but if you're just a fanboy from the blue or green corner with little knowledge of the background to all this then dial it down a tad.

Downsizing Dublin *WILL* be very interesting to see where the assets are deployed to and whether they have any impact on profits. MOL's got the chance to kill Aer Lingus but seemingly is walking away from the fight?

45989
16th Mar 2009, 21:31
Even the ryr apologists are begining to see the wood from the trees

kingston_toon
16th Mar 2009, 22:18
The key difference between the UK and Ireland APDs seems to be that FR absorb it in the UK when offering promo fares, but are passing it straight onto the customer in the case of Ireland. So the current £10 promo offer is indeed £10 from the UK, but 10 Euro + 10 Euro tax from all Irish airports. I'm sure FR *could* absorb it like they do in the UK, but are simply making a point here.

davidjohnson6
16th Mar 2009, 23:17
This is just my theory - if you think it's a load of b*ll*cks, please be nice !

My understanding (possibly incorrect) is that FR currently has rather too many spare airframes, and is not sure how to use them.

Once an aircraft is purchased or a capital (not operating) lease signed, the money has been spent, whether it spends 12 hours per day in the air, or just sits all day on the ground. Thus the cost of operating the aircraft cease to include any capital / lease payments. This implies that the breakeven cost to the airline of a route (as opposed to parking in the desert) is much lower than it would be when considering a future aircraft purchase. This is similiar to NorthWest operating DC-9s even today - but better because a 737-800 is far more fuel efficient than a DC-9. Of course, one can think about selling airframes, but demand right now is pretty weak.

With a much lower effective breakeven cost for aircraft, many more routes become worthwhile considering. A possible strategy is to then think about flooding the market with your product - aka dumping (the EU doesn't like this, but it's difficult to prove conclusively and in FR's case might possibly be considered a valid business approach) in the hope of killing off some of your competitors or claim some of their markets as your own.

What therefore prevents Ryanair from:
1) Copying Southwest's approach in Denver to kill of Frontier, by expanding heavily in Bratislava to kill off a weakened SkyEurope and claim BTS as its own
2) Expand at Wroclaw, and not simply to the UK / Ireland
3) Seville expansion and maybe also open in Bilbao to make life difficult for Vueling / clickair
4) Start flying to Salerno as a proxy for Naples
5) Open a base in Greece (take advantage of the weakened Olympic) - possibly at Thessaloniki
6) Open up in Zagreb and make life difficult for Croatia Airlines
7) Open up in Turku and siphon off some of AY / SK's traffic
8) Expand at Kaunas now that flyLAL is no more and KD Avia remains weak, and also start flying to Tallinn to compete with a troubled Estonian Air
9) Further expand at Gothenburg, now that SAS is retrenching, and possibly also at Aarhus. Copenhagen can wait until 2010 when the new terminal opens.
10) Consider flying to Bordeaux which is underserved by LCCs
11) Expand Leipzig, or open at Dresden - only real competition is Air Berlin / Condor offering beach routes in the Med
12) Expand at Bergamo and maybe also Treviso and Bari to make life difficult for the rather weak MyAir

Note - I have not considered eu01's idea of making HHN a connection hub as I think it's too much of a change in business model requiring bigger changes in internal process and controls that do not yet exist, and opens FR up too much to potential EU compensation payouts for missed connections

I'm almost certainly being over-bullish given the state of Europe's economy, but I'd be interested to see if other armchair CEOs have better ideas as to what MOL should do next... !

... ducks for cover while the incoming missiles begin to arrive ...

chrism20
16th Mar 2009, 23:50
A lot of possible expansion possibilities there David.

One of the biggest problems with having FR expand or set up shop at your airport is that they want to use everything and pay for nothing or pay as little as possible for it.

Slowly but surely airports are wising up to these practices and with the current climate forecast to continue for the forseeable future airports do not have the funds to practically pay FR to base/fly into. Cork & Blackpool are 2 recent examples of this. It may actually be more profitable for the operator not to have FR use their airport.

The aircraft will go somewhere although at the moment it is anyones guess.

The Real Slim Shady
17th Mar 2009, 00:23
Airlines, especially point to point locos need numbers. The top 50 European cities by population

1 London* United Kingdom 7,556,900 FR Base STN
2 Berlin* Germany 3,425,000 FR Dest SXF
3 Madrid* Spain 3,213,271 FR Base MAD
4 Rome* Italy 2,718,768 FR Base CIA
5 Paris* France 2,188,500 FR Dest BVA
6 Bucharest* Romania 1,931,838
7 Hamburg Germany 1,773,218 FR Dest LBC
8 Warsaw* Poland 1,706,624
9 Budapest* Hungary 1,702,297 FR Dest BUD
10 Vienna* Austria 1,697,937 FR Dest BTS
11 Barcelona Spain 1,615,908 FR Bases GRO,REU,Dest BCN
12 Sofia* Bulgaria 1,402,597
13 Munich Germany 1,356,594
14 Milan Italy 1,299,633 FR Base BGY
15 Prague* Czech Republic 1,223,368 FR Dest PRG
15 Brussels* Belgium 1,080,790 FR Base CRL
16 Birmingham United Kingdom 1,010,200 FR Base BHX
17 Naples Italy 1,004,500
18 Cologne Germany 995,397 FR Base NRN
19 Turin Italy 900,520 FR Dest TRN
20 Marseille France 839,043 FR Base MRS
21 Stockholm* Sweden 810,120 FR Base NYO, Dest VST
22 Valencia Spain 807,200 FR Base VLC (Summer?)
23 Leeds United Kingdom 761,100 FR Dest LBA
24 Kraków Poland 756,666 FR Dest KRK
25 Łódź Poland 750,125 FR Dest LDZ
26 Amsterdam* Netherlands 752,911
27 Athens* Greece 745,514
28 Riga* Latvia 727,578 FR Dest RIX
29 Seville Spain 699,759 FR Dest SVQ
30 Frankfurt Germany 667,598 FR Base HHN
31 Zaragoza Spain 666,129 FR Dest ZAZ
32 Palermo Italy 665,628 FR Dest / Base(soon) PMO
33 Wrocław Poland 633,950 FR Dest WRO
34 Genoa Italy 614,736 FR Dest GOA
35 Copenhagen* Denmark 613,603 FR Dest ( Negotiating)
36 Stuttgart Germany 595,452
37 Dortmund Germany 587,717 FR Base NRN
38 Rotterdam Netherlands 584,058
39 Essen Germany 583,892 FR Base NRN
40 Glasgow United Kingdom 581,900 FR Base PIK
41 Düsseldorf Germany 577,505 FR Base NRN
42 Málaga Spain 566,447 FR Dest
43 Poznań Poland 564,035 FR Dest PZN
44 Vilnius* Lithuania 553,553
45 Bremen Germany 548,477 FR Base BRE
46 Sheffield United Kingdom 530,300
47 Hannover Germany 517,251
48 Leipzig Germany 510,512
49 Dresden Germany 507,513
50 Dublin* Ireland 505,739 Home Sweet Home


Not that many places left to expand to with at least 500,000 population.

Jes
17th Mar 2009, 00:39
Careful with figures.

Greater Manchester has 2.2 million people but Manchester city has over 500,000.

This is not on your list.

davidjohnson6
17th Mar 2009, 00:56
Slim - many thanks for the list. I wasn't sure on one thing though - do the number refer purely to what lies in the official municipal boundary (probably the case, given that Paris looks comparable to Bucharest rather than London), or are they a measure of catchment area, showing number of people within perhaps 75 mins travelling time ?

Further, do you have figures combining both catchment area AND a proxy for disposable income (GDP per capita might be a start) ? Again, Paris should trounce Bucharest on this measure.

Other factors I was trying to think about are:
1) Not going head-to-head with another LCC when an airport probably can't support 2 substantial LCC operations - e.g. Budapest and Warsaw with large Wizz operations
2) Avoiding cities where there is only one airport for miles around that also happens to be a major hub for another airline (e.g. Munich). I consider Madrid to be an exception because of the newly released space in the old terminal
3) Looking for airports where the dominant airline is in a weakened state - easier to grab market share

Shed-on-a-Pole
17th Mar 2009, 02:00
For business planning purposes, it is preferable to assess the total size of a conurbation rather than the official quoted population of a "city". City boundaries have in many cases been significantly outgrown in the years since lines were drawn on the map. This results in unreliability of data based solely upon population figures falling within a political or historic boundary. The example of Manchester provided by JES is an excellent case in point. Here is an urban centre which has experienced meteoric growth since the industrial revolution the early 1800's; a growth which political boundaries have never closely reflected.

If you are planning an enterprise such as those which interest us on PPRUNE, the only useful data is the population of the entire conurbation. The arbitrary figure representing the people who happen to live within a long outgrown boundary line is more of a hindrance than a help to accurate planning.

pug
17th Mar 2009, 02:41
I dont mean any offence by this but city populations mean :mad: all when considering conurbations as other posters have pointed out. Then there is the difficult task of working out propensity to fly, likely business links between cities and the number of airports within an hours drive of said city...

Im sure that is just the start of what any airline would look at when trying to find new markets.

As an example, Sheffield (no.46) DSA has failed to bring in results, EMA (Nottingham, Leicester, Derby, not being on the list) LBA and MAN (not on list either) all offer a superior Dublin service. EMA and MAN being equidistant from Sheffield to DSA, who gets the reduction and who gets the chop? Despite Sheffield having a large population statisticaly.

Bring back SZD

Unionjet28
17th Mar 2009, 02:48
Agree with the above. Quoting DUB at 500,000 is merely quoting the pop of the Dublin City Council area which is basically central Dublin and the Inner suburbs.(Actually, quoting even less than it is!), and ignores the Dublin administrative areas of Dun Laoighre - Rathdown, South Dublin and Fingal completely, not to mention the overspill into Counties Wicklow, Meath and Kildare. The accepted Population of the Urban area of Dublin is 1.2 million, and that of the Greater Dublin Area is 1.7 million.

PC767
17th Mar 2009, 08:41
Just a though. Ryanair de-camping (albeit) slowly from DUB and Ireland in general could be a pre-curser to the next take over of Aer Lingus.

The Irish goverment/EU arguement that Ryanair would be a monopoly airline in Ireland if they purchase Aer Lingus would be rather weak when/if Aer Lingus themselves have become the monopoly airline.

A third take over attempt, if successful, would then only require the disposal of the A320s with B737s in Aer Lingus colours. (For a time?) And the problems of duplication over routes would have been sorted pre-take over.

big.al
17th Mar 2009, 09:46
Is it April 1st today or do Ryanair just think it is? Perhaps they are joining in the fun-poking at O'Bleary's recent suggestion for charging to use the loos;

The Real Slim Shady
17th Mar 2009, 09:49
Those are municipal boundary figures: nevertheless, you don't have to be a genius to realise that these cities will have substantial draw from the hinterland and the total available market will probably be double the base figure.

What you have to be careful of is overlap: for example, London and Birmingham have a certain degree of overlap in catchment area as do Dortmund, Essen, Koln and Dusseldorf.

Equally, Manchester which isn't on the list has LPL, FR Base, just down the road.

In simple terms though you can see that availability of new territory is reducing.

Of course, the other very valid points you have made( to the vast majority of cogent individuals) don't stand up when you look at certain FR destinations, Torp, Beauvais, Knock, Valadollid, Hahn, Billund, Vasteras, Skavsta and the French beyond the back of beyond airports.

Never assume you are dealing with a sensible mind ;)

Cyrano
17th Mar 2009, 10:24
Is it April 1st today or do Ryanair just think it is? Perhaps they are joining in the fun-poking at O'Bleary's recent suggestion for charging to use the loos;

Ryanair.com - News : Passengers to Suggest Next Discretionary Charge

Discussed already a few pages ago. Welcome to the forum, big.al, but before posting it doesn't hurt to read back a little way to see if the point's already been made (clue: the Ryanair press release you link to is dated March 12. Expect to find the first comments on it here dated the same day.)

racedo
17th Mar 2009, 10:52
Big Al

If you read the press release you will see it ends on 30th of March which suggests its an April Fool press release on new charges.

befree
17th Mar 2009, 11:27
Seats must be the next optional extra. For those who want to go for less they could have a marked area on the floor and a lap belt that fits the the original seat mounting points.

Another option is to do away with extra fuel but this would need to be a whole plane option.

After the check in has gone the cabon crew will be next followed by the pilots (one at a time). I see a totally automatic plane top of MOLs wish list.

sitigeltfel
17th Mar 2009, 12:24
O'Leary is considering a surcharge on flights crewed by his porn star stewardess ;)

big.al
17th Mar 2009, 15:33
Thanks Cyrano - but since this thread now runs to 200+ pages I couldn't wade through them all....;)

FA10
17th Mar 2009, 15:41
tomorrow MOL press conference in Memmingen (about 120km west of Munich). Any ideas what to expect? Skavsta - Memmingen was rumour some time ago.

frnikolai
17th Mar 2009, 16:43
I want to respond to that excellent plan which David has shared, frankly - that is almost certainly going to happen. And with strength in all corners, perhaps another take-over bid? Meaing that Aer Lingus either joins them - or get's out.

Still, MOL has given Aer Lingus the perfect reason to expand, but in doing so might just led Aer Lingus to the end of runway line!

RYR has made cuts, but realistically, I can't actually believe that anyone actually uses those routes for anything more than visiting friends/family or weekend breaks - which means that they are unprofitable in the present economical climate.

To conclude, expansion is the key. More people flying = more profits.

Nikolai.

Budfrey27
17th Mar 2009, 17:14
New routes Memmingen to :-

Alghero
Alicante
Gerona
Reus
Dublin
London Stanted
Pisa


cheers
Bud

info from FR website

davidjohnson6
17th Mar 2009, 17:38
Nikolai - my post was just me making intelligent guesses as to where FR might consider using airframes that are not currently occupied in the timetable along with some sort of rationale. I don't have inside information, so am a little puzzled as to why you think my suggestions are almost certainly going to happen !

If anyone who has worked as a route planner would be kind enough to spare a few minutes to give their thoughts, I'd be genuinely interested to hear from them - see weblink

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/274500-ryanair-6-a-200.html#post4794323

frnikolai
17th Mar 2009, 17:58
There is no need to be puzzled or confused - I think that musing is the best option for FR.

Give or take a few destinations and routes, but that is very likely going to happen.

I am sure there is going to be an annoucment soon.

I don't recall suggesting inside knowledge, but your plan was more like a strategic force; a little above casual musing!

Nikolai.

gkaloy10
17th Mar 2009, 18:10
Athens does not have 745,514people....

It has about 4/5 million..... come on mate!

davidjohnson6
17th Mar 2009, 18:19
Could I suggest looking at the following data for population of *metropolitan* areas within Europe - probably gives a better idea as to potential number of passengers compared to those living purely within a city's official boundaries

Note how Paris is 11 million, Athens is reported as being around 3.75 million, and Manchester at 2.5 million

List of metropolitan areas in Europe by population - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Europe_by_population)

Alternaitvely for urban areas in the EU (EU LCCs would need a good commercial reason to want to fly to places like Russia), look at:

Largest urban areas of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Largest_urban_areas_of_the_European_Union)

frnikolai
17th Mar 2009, 18:45
As a Russian myself, I would welcome FR to start flying there. It will be a fully-booked flight nearly every time. Safe, cheap, reliable.

I think MOL should consider Vnukovo as a hub for Moscow.

Nikolai.

davidjohnson6
17th Mar 2009, 19:02
Nikolai - Russia is not a member of the European Common Aviation Area, EUROCONTROL or the EU, and as such an airline like Ryanair would find it *very* difficult to gain regulatory permission to fly to Russia from anywhere other than Ireland. It is possible that there may also be further bilateral treaties limiting Ireland-Russia traffic. This is why many residents of St Petersburg travel to Tampere in Finland to fly with Ryanair, and also why Lappeenranta airport in Finland near the Russian border has been suggested as an airport for a LCC.

While not a member of the above organisations, Morocco signed a separate deal with the EU liberalising EU-Morocco air traffic in 2006. The Russian Govt has not expressed a desire to do anything similiar.

I imagine also that the Russian Govt in any negotiations will want to ensure that Russian airlines like Aeroflot and Transaero continue to have a strong presence flying to/from the EU and do not suddenly find themselves drastically undercut on too many routes by a non-Russian airline.

Regular scheduled Ryanair flights to Moscow are not about to happen

frnikolai
17th Mar 2009, 19:12
I am sure some agreement was signed around 9 years ago, as how can BA and BMI fly daily, several times?

Norway isn't part of the EU either? Is that a similar deal to Morroco?

I can completely understand that Aeroflot and Transaero simply can't disappear; but competitive routes will make them become safer, cheaper, and more reliable.

Although they are improving, still expensive!

Nikolai.

airhumberside
17th Mar 2009, 19:19
Norway isn't part of the EU either?
Its in the European Economic Area however. Does that make it part of Europe in aviation terms?

davidjohnson6
17th Mar 2009, 19:34
BA and bmi are both UK registered airlines and therefore to fly from the UK to Russia would not experience any major regulatory issues (except for any bilateral agreements limiting the number of carriers or flights on a particular route). For the same reason Ryanair would be able to fly Ireland-Russia, but would have great difficulty getting permission to fly from anywhere else in the EU to Russia.

Further to my post, Norway is a member of EUROCONTROL and the European Common Aviation Area as well as the European Economic Area, which has liberalised EU-Norway air transport.

I would encourage you to have a Google around the topic of aviation regulation in Europe to find out more.

KD Avia used to fly London-Kaliningrad with a connection Kaliningrad-Moscow, but the route has been suspended

eu01
17th Mar 2009, 19:51
The only metropolitan area in Russia potentially accessible for Ryanair could be St. Petersburg (indirectly, via Finnish Lappeenranta). So far the carrier has demonstrated its short-sightedness, simply missing the point. The local airport probably did not give FR any discount or the offer was not good enough for MOL. Bargaining for a few euros they might have omitted an opportunity to enter the Russian market...

Missing the opportunities? Not only there.

True Blue
17th Mar 2009, 20:00
Not many comments posted yet here on these remarks.

News - Breaking News - Ryanair pilots vote for pay freeze in lieu of cuts (http://news.eircom.net/breakingnews/general/15185288/?view=Standard)

I can't help think that maybe FR have plenty to worry about without all the concern about EI.

True Blue

frnikolai
17th Mar 2009, 20:04
I don't think it is that, more they either accept the pay-freeze. Or they get made redundent; and with all the airlines going bust - it wouldn't be long before the position is filled again.

Realistically, RYR are not going to disappear in this lifetime; guarenteed.

Nikolai.

davidjohnson6
17th Mar 2009, 20:14
Realistically, RYR are not going to disappear in this lifetime; guarenteed.

In the 1960s, Pan Am was probably the world's most prestigious airline. They were the de facto US flag carrier, flying to 6 continents including regular circumnavigations of the world and were one of 3 airlines along with BA and Air France to sign options on Concorde

Plenty of people said Pan Am would never disappear. Operations ceased in 1991

Ryanair is not immune and MOL knows it

frnikolai
17th Mar 2009, 20:51
I was a little kid when they were around - don't even remember them :(

But if you look at Ryanair, largest airline in Europe. And compare it with let say BA - you can see which one is likely to go first.

I think BA, Air France, Lufthansa-KLM, Ryanair, Easyjet - will survive this recesion and credit crunch. The rest will have to merge just to survive.

I would be more worried if I was a Pilot for Flybe than Ryanair.

They are just too big and fly too many people to suddenly run out of cash, after all don't they have €3 billion in reserves?

Nikolai.

chrism20
17th Mar 2009, 21:50
I would be more worried if I was a Pilot for Flybe than Ryanair.


Why?

Flybe operate a very fuel efficient fleet of aircraft and have the ability to adjust supply to suit demand without the need to flood the market with low fares to fill seats. They also have an exceptonal cost base.

A lot of families will be holidaying in the UK this year as it is simply too expensive to go abroad. Bearing in mind £100 bought €147 18 months ago whereas today it will buy you €105 at the post office today. Flybe will be able to capitalise on this due to their strong domestic network. Furthermore many of the routes have a good mix of both business and leisure travellers, very few of their routes rely on one segment of the market.

Flybe integrated the loss making bacon into the business and managed to turn it into profit if it can survive that it can survive almost anything. Many people thought that would finish them!

Jim French and Mike Rutter are no fools, they proved this when BA paid them to take bacon away and turned it round.

Cyrano
17th Mar 2009, 22:29
Nikolai - my post was just me making intelligent guesses as to where FR might consider using airframes that are not currently occupied in the timetable along with some sort of rationale. I don't have inside information, so am a little puzzled as to why you think my suggestions are almost certainly going to happen !

If anyone who has worked as a route planner would be kind enough to spare a few minutes to give their thoughts, I'd be genuinely interested to hear from them - see weblink

Ryanair - 6

David, your musings on sensible development avenues for Ryanair are eminently reasonable.

You wonder why they are not embarking on any of these.

For what it's worth, my personal view: strategically, they're just not that smart.

Before any of the usual fanboys start preparing to flame me, let me explain. Ryanair as we all know has been incredibly good at screwing deals out of airports, mostly but not exclusively secondary ones. They have been good at building an organisation which is exclusively and very aggressively focused on delivering the lowest possible costs and/or being perceived as delivering the lowest possible costs (note subtle difference). They have defended themselves extremely aggressively when faced with new head-to-head competition (think Go and easyJet in the Irish market) and have on some occasions picked tactical fights (think Dublin-Cork against Aer Arann). However, I don't have the impression that their strategic thinking has really gone beyond colonising the map of Europe one random base at a time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see them rolling out bases where they get a really good deal from an airport. At least, that's what they trumpet at each new base opening, along with the "investment" (ie the list price of a 737-800 times the number to be based there), the "number of jobs to be created" (based on some ACI research from a few years ago related to network-carrier hub links enabling industry, if I recall correctly) and the "number of passengers to be carried in the next 2 years" (which is rather harder for any airline to deliver reliably in the current market). I don't recall seeing Ryanair new-base press conferences where they say "we studied the French market and it was clear that there was great potential in the South-East, so we went looking for a base there."

It seems to me to be a fundamental part of Ryanair thinking that all the airports in Europe are perpetually in competition, whether for new routes or for a base. If Airport X in France offers a good enough deal, OK, they'll announce a base there, but if at the last minute Airport Y in Italy does better, the base will go there instead. In other words, I haven't seen (but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) any concerted strategy along the lines of "we want to dominate Central Europe" or "we want to establish six strategic bases in Italy to keep competition out" or whatever, but rather just an extended tactical campaign ("we'll go to whichever airport does the best deal") with no "big picture" view.

I would add that now that 50% of Ryanair's 2-person route development department has left (and BB was the senior person there), there is unlikely to be any improvement in their strategic focus. Unless, of course, they recognise the glaring need to fix this and rapidly go out and hire a network-strategy big hitter - which has to be a challenge, since reporting directly to MO'L in the current business environment can't be too appealing a sell to someone coming from a more "normal" airline, especially since a healthy upside from share options is no longer a realistic part of the package.

Disclaimer: this is just my personal view based on observing FR from outside and from talking to people who deal with them on a regular basis.

Incidentally I note MO'L's recent comments about the withdrawal of services from DUB as reported in the Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2009/0317/1224242945779.html):
“We intend to drive down [passenger] traffic at Dublin airport until this Government gets the message,” Mr O’Leary said at a press briefing in Dublin.

This is an interesting approach: he is quite open about using route cuts as a weapon in his dispute over the tax (the other Irish carriers don't like the tax any more, but aren't rushing to join him, I note) but he also appears to be implying that any reduction in passenger numbers will be Ryanair's doing (rather than acknowledging that Ryanair is at least partially at the mercy of the economic situation).

C.

Skipness One Echo
17th Mar 2009, 22:32
Realistically, RYR are not going to disappear in this lifetime; guaranteed. Don't bet your savings on it mate. The FACT is that one really bad season can kill most airlines.
You keep coming back on this issue that Ryanair is Europe’s biggest airline but they are aiming at getting even bigger! If you had a little more experience you would know that the bigger they are the harder they fall.
Ask anyone in the 1960s if they could see Pan Am going bust and they would not have believed you. The same goes for TWA.
People Express grew massively at first, but they were destroyed as the market changed and they couldn't adapt fast enough.

It's naive to compare BA and Ryanair as you continually do. They are not in the same market. The only thing they have in common is they fly people from A to B except with Ryanair you tend to fly via Z too often. BA are a high yield airline focused on First / Business class with an economy product that allows people like me to see the world.

Ryanair fly a growing fleet of one aircraft type which is growing at a fast pace as the market plummets.

Remember that once Juan Trippe left Pan Am, the busines was doomed. I think Ryanair will either be saved or doomed when MOL goes. Only time will tell which but please *READ* and try and understand what some of the guys on here are telling you. Your world view is pretty simplistic and does not reflect the complexities of the business.

They are bailing out of Dublin, their home base. They can't destroy Aer Lingus on their home turf. They are redistributing these aircraft to new markets, which need time to bed in and build trade and profit. They are giving seats away for nothing on some routes and charging a grotesque amount of fees on others. I can't even check in at the airport any more! Not a good way to attract new business is it?

racedo
17th Mar 2009, 23:00
You wonder why they are not embarking on any of these.


Press Statement of last week made by FR in relation to holding unused slots had a comment regarding expectation of growth coming from Slot controlled airports.

Problem before was bigger airports didn't want FR, now given they only ones opening new routes then as an airport boss do you sit smugly saying to whomever your boss is "Well our passenger numbers are down 10% but we haven't bothered talking to Ryanair as we are above them" or "We lost many routes but the introduction of Ryanair has enabled us to hold passenger numbers and build in growth over the next couple of years albeit at marginal cost".

In #1 overall boss will be thinking of your replacement, in #2 you will keep your job as you lost SLF but you got new business to compensate.

Other posters have posted about CPH and BCN potential opportunities but think there are quite a lot of others thinking about it.

I agree MOL retiring will have a big impact BUT pretty likely they will bring in Airline bod who will move them from the manic expansion to building on customer service and still be cheap. Where then will the legacy carriers compete ?

Skipness One Echo
17th Mar 2009, 23:32
I agree MOL retiring will have a big impact BUT pretty likely they will bring in Airline bod who will move them from the manic expansion to building on customer service and still be cheap. Where then will the legacy carriers compete ?

Well Crikey racedo if that's all that's needed to destroy the legacy aviation carriers then time to write a letter to Dublin HQ and make sure they get right on it!
Let's not waste any more time!
Life is always black and white in Ryanair world....

h&s
17th Mar 2009, 23:44
Cyrano, totally agree with your post - no strategy in our favourite low brain airline, that's obvious

When I think than pilots had to accept a pay freeze because of the low brain management...
And they continue to say they will lower fares in order to gain market shares bla bla bla, but where is the gain of market shares in Dublin when they reduce AGP or CIA??? And how can they cut a route during the summer whereas that was probably the only months during when these routes were making money

racedo, don't be naive - the majority of airports will do everything possible to avoid ryanair - trust me or not, talk with airports and you'll see this is a fact
I definitely can't see them going to BCN - probably another stupid negociation tool to obtain better deal from REU or GRO and that could lead to disaster for regions such as what happened in VLC or FUE - and clearly shows why everybody try to avoid them
CPH why not, but again no chances according to me - and even if they go, good luck to them because that's a competitive market, with quite long sectors so quite hard to be profitable with 10€ all inclusive fares and no subsidies...

At the end, they may still be profitable this year, and as always they would have to thank airports (that agreed cost reductions etc) and staff (that agreed pay freeze etc) and for sure not their (low) brain

By the way who thought Aer lingus will be profitable this year? lads, that's a former ryanair guy at the top = the airline is dead, as for skybus!

The Real Slim Shady
17th Mar 2009, 23:55
True Blue

“Our pilots have recognised the difficulties we face and are making their contribution by negotiating this pay freeze and productivity increase as the preferred alternative to pay cuts.”

There was no negotiation: it was accept this or we will cut your pay by 10%, change the rosters, change the leave pattern etc etc.

There is a thread running on R & N covering this.

racedo
18th Mar 2009, 00:19
I definitely can't see them going to BCN - probably another stupid negociation tool to obtain better deal from REU or GRO and that could lead to disaster for regions such as what happened in VLC or FUE - and clearly shows why everybody try to avoid them

It was BCN owners announcing this on Catalan TV a couple of weeks ago as FR made no comment. It was posted here by some locals in Barcelona.

As for airports avoiding them of course but given the scenario of continual loss of passengers or bringing them in then some will just suck it up and bring them in.

Airport bosses have targets and loss of passenger numbers isn't one that looks good as its not just the boss but local media and tourism interests who vocalise their feelings.

racedo
18th Mar 2009, 00:27
Well Crikey racedo if that's all that's needed to destroy the legacy aviation carriers then time to write a letter to Dublin HQ and make sure they get right on it!
Let's not waste any more time!
Life is always black and white in Ryanair world...

Nope but you need different type and style of bosses to start and grow an airline / business and then at a certain stage you need to hand over to a different type of manager.

As for the legacies well when FR flying to secondary airports they sat smugly saying well we fly to the big airports and are above them while quietly taking on board stuff that FR introduced.

FR flying to the primary airports undo's some of the smugness and then the legacies left with how they can compete.

History is littered with examples of major players thinking they are above the agressive competitor who they thing is not competing ........UK Motorcycle industry is classic example as they laughed at Honda 50 etc until Japanese started introducing bigger bikes.

davidjohnson6
18th Mar 2009, 00:32
It was my understanding that Aena own Girona, Barcelona and Reus airports.
Talking to BCN in order to neogtiate better terms from GRO / REU rather puzzles me.

I can believe that Aena may be concerned at the over-provision of capacity at the new terminal in BCN, but would have thought they would want to keep FR at GRO and REU, in the hope of other carriers (who might pay the higher fees) coming to BCN in the medium term future.

The only rationale I can think of for Aena being happy to see FR move from GRO / REU to BCN, is if Aena are essentially making zero or an extremely low amount of revenue (and thus running at a loss) at GRO / REU, with FR now offering to pay half price fees for being able to fly to BCN. Of course, Aena would want such a deal to last no more than about 24 months (6 months after the recession ends) when they can tell FR to go back to flying from GRO and REU when other airlines agree to pay the full fees for landing at BCN. Naturally, FR will want a long term deal at BCN to gain longer term stability. I suspect also that Aena will be keen not to harm Vueling / clickair and parent Iberia too much.

Would someone (h&s or racedo ?) be kind enough to elaborate FR's potential strategy ?