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davidjohnson6
23rd Nov 2008, 20:30
Forgive if I'm mistaken, but...

The purpose of load factor is to give a measure of how many available seats were sold for revenue that can be recognised formally in the accounts.

On many airlines (e.g. full service carriers), many tickets sold are refundable after the plane has departed. Because a customer need not apply for a refund until quite a while later, it is not possible in any given calendar month to know exactly how many refunds will need to be given. The easy way to measure how many seats are sold with recognisable revenue is to count physical bums on seats - thus load factor. Perhaps overly conservative as a measure but very easy to measure.

If as with Ryanair, an airline has a policy of never selling tickets that can be refunded / changed after a missed departure, the proportion of earned seats is probably a better measure of how well sales are going between months or years. Treating this as equal to load factor however is not correct.

My bugbear is when seats are sold for 1 penny or 1 eurocent. Because money changes hands and thus there is consideration, the law recognises this as a contract and thus a ticket is legally deemed to have been sold. Treating these as earned seats in monthly reporting I think is incorrect.

IMHO, an airline should count only seats where the total sale price is at least the value of Govt tax, airport charges and any other obligatory fees on a per pax basis - a sale price below that should be reported as a non-revenue or subsidised ticket

befree
24th Nov 2008, 06:58
The main job of cheap tickets is to make money from what would be wasted seats. Ryanair go past this point where seats are sold at a loss not even covering the marginal costs of the extra pax with bags.

The load factor has to be controlled to keep the share price up. I guess the real load factor is 10-20% less this time of year.

frfly
24th Nov 2008, 16:40
What is very interesting - is to see whether Ryanair increase the % at which they oversell their flights. They currently sell to 196 on high frequency routes (usually AM). You can see up to 60 no shows on these flights. That could be 60 less fly to win scratch cards!

davidjohnson6
24th Nov 2008, 16:55
I only know what is publicly available, but the company website states:

'Ryanair is the only airline in Europe that does not overbook its flights; therefore Ryanair has eliminated the possibility of passengers being denied boarding as a result of overbooking.'

Ryanair.com - About Us - Passenger Charter (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/about.php?page=About&sec=charter&culture=GB&pos=HEAD) (section 9)

As far as I know, a 737-800 cannot take more than 189 pax

Can one reconcile this with selling to 196 pax, is there something I'm missing, or am I just being a little naive in taking things at face value ?

Hollymead
24th Nov 2008, 17:13
Infants ??

eu01
24th Nov 2008, 17:30
From Brussels:The European Union's consumer chief gave some of Europe's top airlines a final warning to stop misleading consumers or face possible fines and having their websites shut down. EU Consumer Commissioner Meglena Kuneva will give airlines who mislead or rip off customers until the end of the year "to clean up their act" or she will begin legal proceedings in January, a European Commission official said.

"She has run out of patience and will tell the airlines that this is the last chance saloon for them," the official said.For some tome FR did pretend to comply with the rules, but due to their totally incapable software the site's faltering has worsened again and at present (what a surprise!)... taxes/fees are not showing any more! Wouldn't it be much easier just to show the total price from the very beginning?

FR-
24th Nov 2008, 17:54
Ryanair does not over book, the only flight i know that can be over booked is STN-DUB but only by a few seats and on early flights. And we can have 18 infants.

Michael SWS
24th Nov 2008, 17:57
Ryanair does not over book, the only flight i know that can be over booked is STN-DUB...So Ryanair does overbook?

Abusing_the_sky
24th Nov 2008, 18:51
My guess is that FR will overbook by 4 pax, so the highest the flight could be overbooked at is 193. Why?
Because those 4 pax are actually staff traveling, on staff tickets, and if the flight is fully loaded, then the said 4 can be seated in the spare jump seats (2 at the rear of the a/c, 2 in the flight deck)


Just my guess.

Rgds,
ATS

paully
24th Nov 2008, 19:02
But they would still have to buy a scratchcard and a cup of tea though:)

h&s
24th Nov 2008, 22:05
Because those 4 pax are actually staff traveling, on staff tickets, and if the flight is fully loaded, then the said 4 can be seated in the spare jump seats (2 at the rear of the a/c, 2 in the flight deck)



your guesses are wrong
Ryanair staff tickets are stand by tickets, whatever the number of overbookings. If the flight has no overbooking and 189 paid PAX, there could be anyway 20 staff tickets that will wait at the boarding gate
I said that few posts again, Ryanair lie again to its passengers, by saying that officially they don't overbook, whereas indeed, they overbook many flights.
Usual Ryanair bull****, but who's surprised???

FR-
25th Nov 2008, 06:58
Its clear non of you work for Ryanair. Dont guess, why dont you try asking? the STN-DUB is sometimes over booked by 2, becuase you can be sure that 2 pax will be a no show. And the other 2 pax (paz 190&191) could always be put onto the next flight, which is little over an hour later.

FR-

Seljuk22
25th Nov 2008, 08:13
FR to MAH next year?


Im kommenden Jahr werden wesentlich mehr Billigflieger den Flughafen von Menorca anfliegen als in diesem. Das gab der Tourismusabgeordnete vom Inselrat Menorca, Lázaro Criado bekannt. So gibt es neue Verbindungen der Airlines Ryanair, Jet2.com, Air Lingus oder Monarch.
In English: Next year there will be a lot more LCC at MAH, said the tourism officer of Menorca, Lazaro Craido. New routes with Ryanair, Jet2, Aer Lingus or Monarch.

eu01
25th Nov 2008, 10:15
FR has announced plans to quit Blackpool International Airport.
The shock move comes just a few days after the airport decided to introduce a £10 airport development fee from January 5 next year.

Airline bosses will halt daily flights to Dublin and the three times a week flights to Girona, the day before the charges are due to be brought in.

More in the Blackpool Gazette (http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/blackpoolnews/Ryanair-to-quit-Blackpool-airport.4727852.jp).

RAT 5
25th Nov 2008, 11:23
Is there anyone in the know about credit card bookings, and who to approach on the inside. RYR offer bookings using a VISA Debit card: except it is not accepted and a full VISA card booking has to be made using the same card at higher cost.
Easyjet does accept this same card as VISA Debit card at the reduced cost. Seems like a good earner if you can get away with it. I heard MOL, on HardTalk, defend his outragious C.C charges with the response that VISA Electron are free and he can supply those. However, I also heard that these are not always so easy to come by. Does anyone have one and are there any hiddens costs, e.g. initial application etc, or annual fees?

MUFC_fan
25th Nov 2008, 11:28
Airline bosses will halt daily flights to Dublin and the three times a week flights to Girona, the day before the charges are due to be brought in.


Plus the GRO flights increase to daily during the summer months carrying over 10,000 people monthly on that route alone.

Shame.....

Wycombe
25th Nov 2008, 14:27
a full VISA card booking has to be made using the same card at higher cost

This surely is RYR making sure they can cover costs such as departure tax when offering flights for £1, free etc. as has been the case recently.

Booked recently for a day out STN-DUB in Jan, and would have only paid £8 for 4 of us return, but £32 (£4 per pax per sector) was added as this supposed "credit card" charge.

So, £40 for a day trip to Eire is still cheap as chips, but it does rankle a bit that the good old "harps" have to disguise things in this way - I do of course understand they have to cover costs outside their control, so why not just be honest!

Voldermort
25th Nov 2008, 15:05
RAT 5 check your PM`s :ok:

frfly
25th Nov 2008, 17:27
FR-

If you work for Ryanair you should know very well FR do overbook. As I said - to 196 is the most I have ever seen a flight. Mostly on UK DUB routes.

Yes as a policy FR do not overbook flights - not on most occasions like other airlines. However, each flight is set up in openskies to sell to a certain level. This can be up to 196.

EI-BUD
25th Nov 2008, 17:33
RAT 5

Ryanair do not accept visa debit, however, visa electron, (a debit card too) is accepted. It seems most banks dont offer such a card, but I have taken one with Halifax to use for Ryanair bookings.

When the pr people at FR are approached on the subject of credit card charges they can say well if you have electron you can avoid the charges. I think if the volume were significant then FR would implement a charge too!!!

boyzinblue
26th Nov 2008, 06:12
Ryanair slam Blackpool for introducing a 10 GBP Development Fee telling everyone you have to drive down costs.
Ryanair themselves charge 5 € for payment handling fee per flight, 5 € airport check in fee, 4 € priority boarding fee, 10 € baggage fee and 15 € per kilo excess baggage ( I know some of these fees are avoidable).
A bit rich slamming the airport on fees!!

Seat62K
26th Nov 2008, 07:04
All these fees are avoidable.

Steviec9
26th Nov 2008, 08:18
All these fees are avoidable.

Absolutely. Last ten tickets I booked were 2p return or to a max of £10 return (2 x £5 single) with no further charges.

Have travelled to/from Ireland this year over 10 times - total cost, just over £50.

Bagmanlgw
26th Nov 2008, 08:59
Ryanair have already announced the start up off ALC and GRO from Gatwick in late December , is this now a shift towards making Gatwick a major base for themselves :ok: ?

Latest new route to be talked about is now LGW - NRN :) . Thats three new routes in a month :D

What other destinations does anyone feel will be benefical to Ryanair out of Gatwick and the chances of them happening soon ?

Bagmanlgw

Noxegon
26th Nov 2008, 08:59
All these fees are avoidable.

Depends what country you live in.

The credit card fee is not avoidable to most Irish people, as to avoid it one needs to use a type of card which is not actually available in Ireland. Unless you have a bank account in another country, something only our wonderful politicians seem to have ;)

Steviec9
26th Nov 2008, 09:17
The credit card fee is not avoidable to most Irish people, as to avoid it one needs to use a type of card which is not actually available in Ireland.

True - two possible options for regular Irish Ryanair travellers:

1. UK Post Office Travel Money Card (Electron) - pre-loaded, available in Euros but you need a UK friend who will accept delivery of it.
2. Current account with Lloyds TSB Spain - available to Irish residents and issues an Electron card.

Check the relevant websites for details. I'm not guaranteeing success but they are possibilities. Hope it helps!

Charlie Roy
26th Nov 2008, 12:28
LGW-NRN new route!?

News - 2008-11-25 Ryanair

They've made an official announcement on their site.
The Weeze to Stansted route will effectively move to Gatwick.

MUFC_fan
26th Nov 2008, 13:26
Ryanair have already announced the start up off ALC and GRO from Gatwick in late December , is this now a shift towards making Gatwick a major base for themselves http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif ?

Latest new route to be talked about is now LGW - NRN http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif . Thats three new routes in a month :D

What other destinations does anyone feel will be benefical to Ryanair out of Gatwick and the chances of them happening soon ?

Bagmanlgw Today 09:18


Manchester has received new flights - more than LGW and they have not become a base. I don't think there are enough slots available at LGW for an FR base

airhumberside
26th Nov 2008, 16:34
I looked on the FR website for a random January date. LGW-NRN is once daily. NRN-STN remains, but goes from 3 to 2 times a day

MUFC_fan
26th Nov 2008, 16:39
Exactly.

One STN flight moves to LGW.

eu01
26th Nov 2008, 17:17
Ryanair has been constantly very bullish about its prospects, its pace of growth and the future expansion. Verbally. But what we actually observe these days is pretty far from that. Some new routes announced, almost the same amount of other links terminated, like they were just fiddling around, preserving the status quo. Bases are being opened, but the other ones closing / development plans abolished. Much more cautious attitude than one could have anticipated.
Becoming more realistic? Re-thinking the strategy? Realizing the limits of the present approach?

Just in case. I'm not bashing FR right now, pondering only...

racedo
26th Nov 2008, 21:00
The new routes at LGW are not really a surprise as LGW has haemorraged airlines in the last months.

Central Wings, Wizzair, Zoom, Sterling, Excel, Continental, Delta, NW, American have all upped sticks so there is a lot of spare capacity at LGW.

Charlie Roy
26th Nov 2008, 21:50
Exactly.

One STN flight moves to LGW.

The Weeze flight that is operated by a Weeze based aircraft will moved to Gatwick.
The 2 other flights are operated by a Stansted based aircraft, so more difficult to move in the short term...

Seljuk22
27th Nov 2008, 07:58
All London flights are operated by NRN a/c since NRN became a base last year

NRN-STN:
6.50-7.00 7.30-9.40
16.15-16.25 16.50-19.00 (1-3-5-7)
20.05-20.15 21.20-23.30 (2-4-6)
NRN-LGW:
17.30-17.40 18.10-20.20

janus627
27th Nov 2008, 12:45
third option for Irish, seeking for a Visa Electron:
entropay.com, card in Pound Sterling, will be accepted as an electron card.
Sometimes you will have to use "Entropay User" as Cardholder´s Name and the address of Entropay.
Some Germans use this virtual card for booking Ryanair Flights.

CorkEICK
27th Nov 2008, 18:57
News Release 27.11.08
Cornwall’s Calamity Council and RAF Close Newquay Airport

AND STRAND PASSENGERS OVER CHRISTMAS

Ryanair, the UK’s favourite airline, today ( 27th Nov) condemned the “Keystone Cops” of Cornwall County Council, and the RAF at Newquay, who notified Ryanair last night (at 19.40 hrs) that Newquay Airport would close in just four days time (on 30th Nov), until at least the 19th December. It appears that this closure (see original notification here (http://www.ryanair.com/site/news/releases/2008/images/Newquay_fax_notice.pdf)) has been caused by the failure of Cornwall County Council to take over the airfield navigation services from the RAF St Magwan on the 30th November next as previously agreed.

Cornwall County Council now “expects” to be able to reopen the airport on the 19th December, although there is no guarantee or certainty that this date will be achieved.

Ryanair today condemned the incompetence of Cornwall County Council and the disregard of the RAF at Newquay for the travelling public. If Cornwall County Council are not in a position to take over the airfield services on Monday, then surely it is not unreasonable to expect the RAF to keep Newquay open for another 3 or 4 weeks and avoid the airport’s closure and the disruption of the flight plans of thousands of passengers travelling to and from Newquay in the run up to Christmas.

Ryanair has no alternative other than to cancel all flights to and from Newquay with effect from Monday, 1st December, until further notice. Because Ryanair has no confidence in Cornwall County Council or their ability to meet the ‘expected’ reopening date of the 19th December we are not willing to take the risk of accepting thousands of passenger bookings over Christmas and New Year when this calamitous Council can shut the airport at just four days notice.

Ryanair will not relaunch services to/from Newquay Airport until the “Keystone Cops” of Cornwall Co. Co. has proven that the airport has reopened and there will not be any further closures at such short and unreasonable notice. Accordingly, Ryanair regrets that there will be no flights to/from Newquay over Christmas and the New Year, but this is entirely due to the incompetence of Cornwall County Council and the unwillingness of the RAF to keep Newquay Airport open during the month of December.

Ryanair’s spokesman, Stephen McNamara, said today:

“The situation at Newquay has descended into farce. It is simply unacceptable that Ryanair and its passengers are given just four days notice of the closure of Newquay Airport for the month of December. We will now have to contact thousands of passengers over the coming days (many of whom will be abroad and will be unable to travel back to Newquay) and tell them that the airport has been closed due to the incompetence of Cornwall County Council and the unwillingness of the RAF to keep the airport open for a couple of weeks.

We will be encouraging all passengers to make compensation claims directly to Newquay Airport and Cornwall County Council who are responsible for this shambles and incompetence. Passengers should contact Newquay airport directly on 0044-1872- 322-002.

This is just the latest in a long series of mismanagement of Newquay Airport by Cornwall County Council. Twelve months ago these clowns introduced and Airport Development Fee which caused a 50% decline in passenger traffic on the Newquay – London route. Now the Council have failed to meet their long planned airport takeover date of the 1st December. It should not be beyond the wit of Cornwall County Council to persuade the RAF to keep the airport open for the month of December. Sadly they couldn’t even manage this and, as a result, flights and passengers will now be stranded with just four days notice.

Ryanair cannot run the risk of stranding passengers over the Christmas and New Year period if Cornwall County Council again miss the 19th December date and it is therefore with regret that we have cancelled all flights to and from Newquay Airport until further notice and we will not relaunch these flights unless and until Cornwall County Council and Newquay Airport have demonstrated to Ryanair’s satisfaction that there will not be further closures and service interruptions at Newquay Airport.

We apologise sincerely to all passengers who will be disrupted by this Council’s incompetence in Cornwall and we will be spending the next four days trying to contact all passengers to assist them with alternative flights and routings, back to the UK for those who have recently travelled abroad with Ryanair and are now unable to return to Newquay Airport because Cornwall County Council and the RAF have closed it.”



NEWQUAY AIRPORT has opened a passenger information hotline at 0044-1872- 322-002 and all passenger queries should be addressed directly to this number or to Mr Chris Cain, Newquay Cornwall Airport at 0044-1872-322000.

BladePilot
28th Nov 2008, 10:47
What is Ryanair really up to? is MOL using a 'claimed' breakdown in relationships with various airport operators as a convenient cover for the downsizing of his company in these difficult times?

Two recent media reports:

25.10.08
Ryanair is to withdraw flights from Blackpool Airport in January in protest at the introduction of a new passenger charge. The budget airline has axed its daily services to Dublin and its Girona route after the airport announced a £10 airport development fee, which will be payable by all passengers over 16 years old from January 5 - although the will get free airport parking.
The airport says that the revenue generated from its new fee will be used to fund a £2 million development plan to upgrade runways, taxi-stops and the apron. However, Michael Cawley, chief executive of Ryanair, said: : ‘The management's decision, against Ryanair's advice, to introduce an airport development fee is an extremely regressive step which inevitably involves a massive increase in the cost of travel for passengers through the airport.’
More than 1.3 million visitors have used the airport with Ryanair since the routes were launched in 2003. This route cancellation is the latest in a series of scheduled closures and flight reductions announced by Ryanair in recent weeks.
Ryanair will stop flights from the airport on January 4, the day before the fee is introduced. However, Blackpool Airport has said that it is ‘within days’ of signing a new major airline to replace the lost flights. Sounds like Aer Arann again to us (they recently replaced an axed Prestwick - Dublin service, and there is an animosity between the two Irish airlines).

20.11.08
Ryanair has threatened to scrap flights from airports, including Stansted to Fuerteventura in a dispute with local tourist bosses. The budget airline has said it will close all its routes to and from Fuerteventura from January 31 unless a local tourism group ‘honours a commercial agreement.’
Ryanair has carried 250,000 people on nine routes to the island since 2006. However, the budget airline warned that it will close all of its routes from the Canary island from January 31 unless local tourism group AIE honours a ‘commercial agreement’ to promote Fuerteventura as a tourist destination.
The airline blamed a breach of the agreement for the cancellation of a flight from Dublin earlier this month. Ryanair now says it will withdraw services to Fuerteventura from Birmingham, Bremen, Dublin, Dusseldorf (Weeze), East Midlands, Frankfurt, Liverpool, Stansted and Shannon if agreement is not reached on the alleged contract breaches before December 6.
Ryanair has also started legal action against AIE and its individual members for breach of agreement.

raffele
28th Nov 2008, 11:13
No idea but they've gone OTT regarding the situation with Newquay Airport.

They know that the airport will be shut until the 19th December. So what have they done? Instead of cancelling just the flights affected 1st-19th December, or routing via Plymouth as Air Southwest are doing, they have cancelled all flights in December to Newquay "until further notice"

BBC NEWS | England | Cornwall | 'Keystone Cop' airport criticised (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cornwall/7752446.stm)

pwalhx
28th Nov 2008, 11:21
An interesting theory and with merit should this continue, however in relation to the overall size of the operation at the moment the downsizing would be small fry.

NigelOnDraft
28th Nov 2008, 11:27
No idea but they've gone OTT regarding the situation with Newquay Airport.Might disagree :ooh: If the muppets taking NQY over only work out at 4 days to go they cannot run an airport, not sure I'd trust their 19th Dec "opening"...

For once, I'd agree with MoL, and just leave NQY well alone until it is actually open and running....

NoD

captainspeaking
28th Nov 2008, 11:49
Just close NQY. It's a cr*p airport anyway, and the Nigels and Camillas can get to Rock and Padstein in their horrible 4x4s.

The Real Slim Shady
28th Nov 2008, 12:00
Instead of cancelling just the flights affected 1st-19th December, or routing via Plymouth as Air Southwest are doing,

Don't you just love Flight Sim Commanders!!!

In the real world, 1045 metres LDA may be enough for a Dash but not for a 738!

ExpatChris
28th Nov 2008, 17:00
Just to inform you all that Entropay card does work an an Electron No more fees with Ryanair horray get one at Prepaid Virtual VISA Cards by EntroPay (http://www.entropay.com) I am not connected in any way but just a happy punter

Desk-pilot
28th Nov 2008, 18:55
Now, if we could just get Dublin and Belfast airports to put up passenger fees Ryanair would pull out of those airports too and the world would be one step closer to being rid of Micky Mouse O'Leary and his appalling airline.

Good news for pax I think, they can now fly from Blackpool airports with a decent operator like Arann or Jet2 rather than having the indignity of flying Ryan!

Don't forget to leave the light on when you leave Micky,

Desk-pilot

Skipness One Echo
28th Nov 2008, 19:25
Hmmm. Brewery. Piss up. Hmmmm
Piss up. Brewery.
Hmmm
I'm confused.
You want the council to organise
Hmmm
A piss up
Hmmm
In a brewery?
Hmmm

Not sure we've got the skill set for that chaps. Perhaps we should just assume the RAF have spare time staff and funds to bail us out whilst they try and fight two seperate foreign wars. Perhaps they have beer too? Hmmmm

Based
28th Nov 2008, 19:42
Well I see they've finally achieved their ambition of crushing Aer Arann on the DUB-ORK route. Aer Arann are going down to two flights a day, and not really at optimum hours which probably doesn't bode too well for them.

frfly
29th Nov 2008, 05:23
Desk-Pilot

How is it good news for PAX? BLK have lost a huge amount of business and NQY the same due to bad airport management. PAX now have less choice and have to put up with high fares and poor punctuality from the airlines left behind.

Sorry if you feel you have some personal agenda agaisnt FR - but leave that home. Facts are FR are the cheapest, most punctual and lose the fewest amount of bags. As a passenger - I'd take that any day.

Ametyst1
29th Nov 2008, 07:49
I fly Ryanair about 4 times a month and as a passenger I love them! In all the time I have flown with the airline I have only had one cancellation (due to fog) and one delay (tech aircraft). I can fly to Dublin for about £40 including charges and I remember the days when Aer Lingus Commuter where the sole operator on the route and the cheapest fare always seemed to be about £180 for the "privelege" of flying on a Short 360! And how many years ago was that

I love the free seating policy because you can see where the family from hell and the screaming brat are going to sit and avoid them (only joking, well half joking).

I also like flying BA but I know as soon as the captain says we are fully boarded, doors are shut and we are ready to go on time, he follows it up with it "Looks like I spoke to soon......"

EI-BUD
29th Nov 2008, 07:53
Instead of cancelling just the flights affected 1st-19th December, or routing via Plymouth as Air Southwest are doing, they have cancelled all flights in December to Newquay "until further notice"




I dont think that a Ryanair aircraft could be routed via Plymouth? Could it?

EI-BUD

ryan2000
29th Nov 2008, 09:04
Shannon thread reports big cuts in Ryanair operation there from 1st July.

eu01
29th Nov 2008, 09:34
It looks like MOL really wants to improve the profitability of his airline now. But what will happen to FR's BIG EXPANSION next year? Reluctant to put it through? Maybe it's just the right strategy, don't deny it...

Desert Diner
29th Nov 2008, 11:09
Speaking of profitability, I just booked a pre-Xmax for me and the wife from Shannon to London. I chose SNN over DUB due to the wider availability of Euro 0.99 seats:rolleyes: So I embarked on my booking journey on MOL's wonderfull website:ugh:

This is what it came out as:



Fare (4 X 0.99) 3.96 Euro

SNN-STN Taxes & Fees 42.84 Euro
STN-SNN Taxes & Fees 68.56 Euro

Airport Check in 20.00 Euro
1 Bag Check in 20.00 Euro
Visa Handling Fee - Me 10.00 Euro
Visa Handling Fee - Wife 10.00 Euro

Total 175.36 Euro

This is after declining early boarding,checking in a second bag, and a plethora of other charges that I may have accepted if I wasn't very carefull in the booking process.

Now, I could have saved the 40 Euro by opting to check online and not to check in a bag, but I figured it was good insurance to do so in case of getting scr:mad:d at the gate for "improperly" checking in or "exceeding" our onboard weight limit.

Now mind you, 87 Euro/pax is still a good price and I have flown them many a time before, but not in the past three years.

But I trully felt scr:mad:d over for the first time with this booking experience.

daz211
29th Nov 2008, 14:25
What did you expect ?

Your not playing the 0.99 rules are you !

1 - Book with a card that you dont get charged on.
2 - Dont take a bag.
3 - Check-in on line.

4 - Dont blame Ryanair for the the tax, all Airlines charge it.

rpmac
29th Nov 2008, 14:44
Purchased Madrid - Palma the other day, cheapest flight available compared to Air Berlin, Iberia, Aer Europa, even with card charges and check in, etc. Always found Ryanair to be on time, good friendly service, difficult to better in many cases. On this occasion wanted to fly with Aer Europa, similar times etc, but the cost was much more than Ryanair.

carbootking
29th Nov 2008, 19:27
iv just come back from dublin 2p inc everything booked with the electron card no baggage everything good doing the same with shannon in january, im no ryanair fan but as long as you know what you get its ok.i like these offers get to see europe on the cheap

LPFR
30th Nov 2008, 14:48
I don't get why people complain about Ryanair's policy. I made my first Ryanair flight for 55€ from Portugal to Scotland and back and I really can't complain. For a 3h flight the legroom is perfectly fine for someone around 1,80cm like me at least, the flights were on time and cabin crew were friendly and helpful and boarding was smooth, with 160+ pax onboard, nothing like the scrum that some people talk about. When it goes wrong I do strongly believe that it's costumer service is awful, but when not I can't understand the reason of moaning..Probably just because the plane says "Ryanair" ? Have already two more trips booked and I'm looking forward to fly them again.

Capot
30th Nov 2008, 15:08
Just in case anyone is still in doubt after

1045 metres LDA may be enough for a Dash but not for a 738! from Slim Shady,

may I confirm that Plymouth could NOT take a B737-800 for a zillion reasons, all of them flowing from the fact that the runway is far too short!

Cllrcollins
3rd Dec 2008, 11:53
Ryanair have announced that they are withdrawing from Fuerteventura at the end of Jan 2009 because of some "contractual misunderstanding" with the local Business Community (AIE) in other words they are owed money!!

Does anybody have any info. on this issue?

Thanks,

Dave:confused:

Seljuk22
3rd Dec 2008, 14:28
November: Passengers up 11%, Load factor up 1% :ok:

Per Ryanair website

Jippie
3rd Dec 2008, 15:05
Good news, not really suprising though with the sheer amount of free tickets they offered.

befree
3rd Dec 2008, 15:26
Giving away millions of free tickets that will not get used is a great way to up your load factor. You need real paying pax to pay the bills.

They will not have carried 11% more pax they just gave away more tickets. The data from FRs main airports will show how flying is falling. The October CAA data shows big drops on many FR routes ex UK.

Ryanair have big problems and are losing routes a quite a fast rate. I am sure some small airstrips they serve will go broke this winter. The big airports will only take on FR at a price as FR will kill of thier other airlines. Just look at the mess at BHX. Every new FR plane takes out around two others.

eu01
3rd Dec 2008, 16:02
Ryanair have big problems and are losing routes a quite a fast rate. ...being still unable to re-shape their services. No need to lower the prices any more. Just take some basic textbooks labelled "marketing", "customer relations", "route network development", "booking systems", "creating a brand strategy", "customer feedback solutions" and so on. It's never too late to learn.

BYALPHAINDIA
4th Dec 2008, 00:14
FUE is a nice little 'Windy' Airport!

Surprised hearing FR have decided to pull out, Thought they were 'Building' up a base there.

FR did boost up the Pax figures at FUE.

If money is owed, I'm sure it is only in both parties interests to 'Resolve' the stoppage?

Cllrcollins
4th Dec 2008, 08:41
I agree, they have increased passenger figures dramatically and I'd say their load factor is on average 90%. But, when Ryanair are involved in a financial dispute, they normally insist it's their way or no way.

There is a public campaign going on in Fue to reverse their decision but it's unclear if this will have any effect. Easyjet service Fue from Madrid and there are rumours that they might step in if Ryanair pull out???

Based
4th Dec 2008, 16:27
Just look at the mess at BHX. Every new FR plane takes out around two others.

I'd argue look at BHX, they're lucky they've Ryanair to replace the airlines who would be collapsing regardless:)

eu01
5th Dec 2008, 11:53
An error condition exists which is preventing you from continuing. You may wish to start over and try again.
Or you may prefer to pick an other airline.

An other (chronical) way of losing the customers.

Additional details about the error:
An error has occurred. Very informative indeed.

Tom the Tenor
5th Dec 2008, 20:15
Ducksie's on the Late, Late Show at 9.30 pm tonight on RTE1 tv.

Should be entertaining.

OliWW
7th Dec 2008, 15:56
Is it true that FR will be announcing new routes on December 10th from EMA... just read it online.

UPS@EMA
9th Dec 2008, 10:47
Oli, where did you read that then, as i cant find anything about a Ryanair Expansion at EMA???

If they do, then ill be suprised but obv plesantly suprised. :)

Regards

Stu

eu01
9th Dec 2008, 12:15
Just announced: Ryanair is to operate a service between Malta and Trapani from February 5.
The flights will be operate twice weekly until April 29 and the frequency will increase to four times a week as from May 1.

A viable route, presumably. Let me be, however, critical once again. Will the following timetable be suitable enough for the average passenger?

Depart:
Trapani (Sicily) 21:55
Arrive:
Malta (Luqa) 22:35

and

Depart:
Malta (Luqa) 23:00
Arrive:
Trapani (Sicily) 23:40

Flying late in the evening, returning in the evening. Not a slightest possibility for a day-trip. Why so complete lack of creativity? Is it so difficult to try to answer the passengers' needs?

When there are routes without any economical sense of flying twice-daily, you still can provide day-trips for tourists and businessmen. In case of Malta, it could have been e.g. like that:

Day One:
Trapani 6:00 - Malta 6:40
Malta 7:05 - Pisa 8:30
Pisa 8:55 - Trapani 10:20
---- and the opposite way:
Trapani 19:20 - Pisa 20:45
Pisa 21:10 - Malta 22:35
Malta 23:00 - Trapani 23:40.
day-trips from Trapani to Malta, Malta to Pisa and Pisa to Trapani

Day Two
Trapani 6:00 - Pisa 7:25
Pisa 7:50 - Malta 9:15
Malta 9:40 - Trapani 10:20.
---- and in the evening
Trapani 19:20 - Malta 20:00
Malta 20:25 - Pisa 21:50
Pisa 22:15 - Trapani 23:40
In turn, day-trips from Trapani to Pisa, Pisa to Malta and Malta to Trapani possible.

I mean, is the construction of more pax-friendly schedules so difficult/insurmountable indeed? One can tempt pax in many different ways, not only offering them some free flights...

Seat62K
9th Dec 2008, 12:30
I agree. Another example is the newly-opened Madrid-Stansted route. Now, I'd love to visit Madrid for the day (to see the latest exhibition at the Prado, for example) but, because the route is operated using Madrid-based crew and aircraft, day trips from London are less attractive than ones from Madrid. Even though the London catchment area is considerably larger in population terms than Madrid's, I assume that the cost savings in using Spanish-based crew must have outweighed this consideration when Ryanair decided on the schedules.
Or is Ryanair's scheduling less sophisticated than I imagine.....?
Would anyone "on the inside" care to comment?!

Patuta
9th Dec 2008, 13:05
Ducksie's on the Late, Late Show at 9.30 pm tonight on RTE1 tv.

Should be entertaining.
MOL looks pinched these days. This guy is struggling - but he's still entertaining (http://www.rte.ie/tv/latelate/av_20081205.html?2460052,null,230).

davidjohnson6
9th Dec 2008, 13:17
If you want to do a London-originating daytrip from either LTN or LGW to Madrid, look at Easyjet.

To fly London-Madrid takes about 2h30. To have a flight departing Madrid at 7 am AND a flight departing London at 7 am requires 2 planes. Ryanair have chosen to have MAD-based airframes + crews as a competitive spoiler to prevent Easyjet, Vueling and Clickair being able to make too much cash out of Madrid - it's certainly not Ryanair's most profitable base.

Similiar thing applies to the Malta-Trapani route. The premium routes from Malta to Sicily will be to Palermo and Catania. Trapani is 70 miles by road from Palermo - it's a leisure-focussed airport, not a business one. A route like London-Rome seems far more likely to do profitable day-trips than Malta-Trapani.

davidjohnson6
9th Dec 2008, 16:08
On a separate note, FR are selling flights from Stansted to Cuneo departing and returning on Saturdays in January and Feburary for £2 round-trip, no taxes. Guess this must be celebrate (!) how well this ski route is doing...

racedo
9th Dec 2008, 16:58
On a separate note, FR are selling flights from Stansted to Cuneo departing and returning on Saturdays in January and Feburary for £2 round-trip, no taxes. Guess this must be celebrate (!) how well this ski route is doing...

Apparently not as its a 12 days of Christmas sale with fares rising by £1 a day until 21st of December.

Alicante for £1 looks good.

pikkuprinssi
9th Dec 2008, 17:32
It's not just the CUF - STN...
Same goes for these other ski routes...
CUF-BHX
CUF-DUB
GNB-CRL
TRN-BOH
TRN-BRS
TRN-EDI
TRN-PIK

nivsy
9th Dec 2008, 18:27
Not a big FR user - but as they charge for everything including check in if you cant do it "on line" cant see many skiers flying FR if you are taking your own kit................

Nivsy

h&s
10th Dec 2008, 00:22
is Ryanair's scheduling less sophisticated than I imagine.....?

just as bad as all their systems
If I admit than at the end, it benefits the passenger, I disagree with anybody that will state that they are brillant people. Ryanair low salaries/high subsidies business model is nothing brillant, MOL is far from being brillant, nobody there neither their systems are brillant, but they just have low morality (or cunning) enough to be made profitable thanks to the airports/cabin crew

MLATPS is non sense to me, but I guess they obtained good money from the airports. No studies, and as always, they'll try it 6 months, then if it's not good enough, they'll ask extra subsidies from the airports, or they'll axe it, as they did whith VLCMLA or with many non sense routes they already launched. Easy way of making business, but definitely nothing genious

BHX5DME
10th Dec 2008, 12:15
Ryanair Confirms Closure of Fuerteventura Routes from January ’09


Ryanair, Europe’s largest low fares airline, today (10th Dec) confirmed that it will close all of its routes to/from Fuerteventura from 31st January after local tourism group AIE failed to honor the commercial agreement it entered into with Ryanair to promote Fuerteventura as a tourist destination.
Since Ryanair began flying to Fuerteventura in 2006 annual passenger numbers have increased over one hundred fold from just 2,000 to over 250,000. However, because of the AIE’s breach of its agreement with Ryanair one of its Dublin flights to Fuerteventura was cancelled from 6th November and Ryanair has now confirmed the closure of 23 weekly services on nine international routes to/from Fuerteventura from 31st January. This follows extensive efforts by Ryanair to encourage the AIE to honor the agreement they had signed.

Ryanair will close all services to/from Fuerteventura including Birmingham (3 per week), Bremen (2pw), Dublin (2pw), Dusseldorf (Weeze) (4pw), East Midlands (3pw), Frankfurt (2pw), Liverpool (3pw), London (3pw) and Shannon (1pw) from 31st January.

Ryanair confirmed legal action, for breach of the agreement, will continue against AIE and its individual members.

Speaking today, Ryanair’s Michael Cawley, said:

“This is a very black day for Fuerteventura and one which will have a severe impact on tourism and the livelihoods of its islanders. Ryanair’s lowest fares and no fuel surcharge have delivered huge tourism revenues and over 250,000 annual passengers will now be lost to/from Fuerteventura. At a time when Spanish tourism numbers are falling Ryanair’s passenger traffic continues to grow as our fares continue to fall. However, the AIE has now taken a huge gamble with the livelihoods of the local tourism industry by blatantly reneging on its contractual commitments and losing Ryanair’s 23 weekly services to the island.

“Ryanair previously called on the AIE to comply with its contractual agreements and provided them with 30 days notice to remedy their contract breach, this notice period has now lapsed with no action having been taken to maintain Ryanair’s presence in Fuerteventura. Therefore, we are faced with no choice but to end all Ryanair flights to Fuerteventura from 31st January”.

eu01
10th Dec 2008, 12:29
Looks like it would relieve roughly 2 more planes of the duties to join others waiting for better days... :{

befree
10th Dec 2008, 12:44
Ryanair need to buy an airline that is short of modern planes as quickly as possible. Planes doing nothing still cost. Ryanair will also have to pay for all the new 787s on order but may be unable to sell off its older ones. The cash pile can soon become a hole.

davidjohnson6
10th Dec 2008, 13:10
Ryanair need to buy an airline that is short of modern planes as quickly as possible

Alitalia ? Buying Aer Lingus would be a model of tranquility in comparison...:E

I know that some routes which were scheduled to launch in mid-October had to be delayed until the S08 schedule ended when some airframes were freed up, but how much has the Boeing strike (and consequent delivery delays) constrained FR's expansion plans for S09 ?

CamelhAir
10th Dec 2008, 13:26
but how much has the Boeing strike (and consequent delivery delays) constrained FR's expansion plans for S09 ?

What delays? There are 50 aircraft arriving by next summer. The problem is not too few aircraft. The problem is an avalanche of aircraft, loads factors and fares falling and 2009 gonna be an economic disaster.
The gloss is off the FR story, analysts expect massive losses next year. No wonder micko looks sick.
If you look beyond the propaganda, FR are in deep$hit. So much for my share options :*

Nakata77
10th Dec 2008, 14:12
Is There Any Difficulty In Recruiting Pilots To Fill All These Positions?

When Will The Extra Boh A/c Be Delivered?

befree
10th Dec 2008, 14:45
at only 6 sectors per day that is 20 million more seats to fill next year. Giving away another 20 million free seats is not going to pay to run 50 planes and will undermine the fares paid. In October Uk pax overall were down 5%. Next year you could see a 10-20% drop in flying. That is not the time to have spare capacity.

davidjohnson6
10th Dec 2008, 15:20
One could take the cynical view, that 2009 is a great time for price dumping (i.e. selling a product on average at a lower price than the cost of providing it).

If one engages too heavily in price dumping, Govt regulators have a habit of asking questions, imposing penalties and generally turning nasty. A recession provides a perfect excuse for an airline for price dumping

By selling at a price below cost, it would be an easy way to put the weaker LCCs into dire straits - probably not necessary for SkyEurope, but perhaps an effective strategy to kill off Vueling, Clickair (unless bought by Iberia), Helvetic, WindJet, MyAir and a few others.

eu01
10th Dec 2008, 19:34
Let me remind you what Michael O'Leary has said in 2006 (during his interview for The Times):
When we’re the biggest airline in Europe it will inappropriate to have somebody here shouting, swearing, abusing the competition. You need more professional management than me. And that time is coming.But no, I do not think it's the right time to replace him, I think MOL is still needed. For two reasons. He is a master in driving the costs down, he is successful in getting good deals. Blackmailing, using opportunities, exploiting, never mind. He is good in it, that's why he's still useful. But what both Ryanair and MOL really need most, is to get a good strategist to change the marketing approach, customer relations and the route development policy. Let O'Leary be the watchman of the cost issues, let him continue as the influential man who arranges new deals and pushes the politicians and bureaucrats to take care of the carrier's prosperity, he's up to the job. But above all he and his airline really need a visionary able to tailor them a new strategy basing not only on low prices, but on the more attractive offer from the pax point of view. The assumption that just low prices will do the trick is simply wrong.

Basically, Ryanair is attracting two groups of passengers. The first one could be a minority, but not a small one. All shades of stingy people. Just they really appreciate these free flights, they do expect all these promotions, some even fly only because it's cheap, for no other reason. They do exist.

The second group is different. The price-conscious people from all social backgrounds, leisure travellers as well as some job-related commuters, students etc. Many could afford paying for much more expensive flights, but don't really see the reason to back less-efective or overcharging carriers. It's a very important group from the airline's point of view. They might be even ready to pay slightly more, but they do not want to hear the slogan: "Don't like us? Travel with others, we don't care". FR simply cannot afford to lose this group of customers. Unfortunately, the only marketing tool Ryanair seem to appreciate so far is just the level of fares. Which of the two mentioned passenger groups are they addressing this way? The right one?

MUFC_fan
10th Dec 2008, 19:40
He made these comments (if I remember correctly) when the airline industry was still booming and the new idea of RyanAtlantic was coming to light.

It is without doubt that he is the best in any business at controlling the bottom line and at the moment it is what is needed. If he resigned from Ryanair there would be hundreds of the world biggest companies wanting him in their seat.

He may not be the best for a companies image but again, he is the best at PR in the business.

He is desperately needed at FR over the next 2 years during these challenging times.

Personally, I think the best move for him would be to move into an advisory role for all companies and work with their staffs to reduce costs. He would become the Simon Cowell of the business world - the man everyone looks at.

davidjohnson6
10th Dec 2008, 19:56
eu01 - how does one differentiate between the 2 pax groups that you mentioned ? People who are price conscious are surely by their nature unwilling to spend money unless they see good reason to do so....

eu01
10th Dec 2008, 20:32
How do I differentiate? Well, do not want to start too artificial classification, but let's try.
The first group: 1 cent flights to Pisa? I've already been to Pisa. Oh, it doesn't matter. The ticket is so cheap that I'll go again.
The second group: 1 cent flights to Pisa? No, I'm not interested in Pisa. I want to go to Paris. Which carrier will offer me the best fares to Paris?

eu01
11th Dec 2008, 10:50
From the Spanish press:La aerolínea de bajo coste Ryanair ha decidido dejar de operar en Fuerteventura a partir del 31 de enero de 2009, lo que ha dejado a 5.000 personas que habían reservado billetes con la aerolínea sin sus vacaciones de invierno.
Five thousand people booked already, probably paid for the hotels, many will not be able to fly any more... They will obviously remain the faithful Ryanair customers, won't they?

Once again. As long as the pax will not have even the illusory impression they are important for the airline, the load factors will not improve.

The Real Slim Shady
11th Dec 2008, 16:24
If you have a contract it is not unreasonable to expect that if you keep to your side of the deal, the other side will honour their part.

If they don't, you can ask them nicely to desist and stick to the deal.

When they continue to ignore your requests and still don't keep to the deal, what do you do?

Do you just carry on regardless or do you back out and seek compensation?

The "bad guys" are AEI not Ryanair.

davidjohnson6
11th Dec 2008, 16:40
Slim - I understand what you're saying about contract, but in any contract between 2 companies there is likely to be an understanding of a small degree of flexibility. It's much too difficult to draw up a contract which is both legally watertight, and allows for the fact that events may sometimes prevent strict observance of the contract.

An example on the side of the handling agent might be very minor delays (e.g. the occasional minute because there was a flu bug going round and half the staff were sick) for unloading bags. Equally, an airline might be guilty of minor infractions as well for perhaps being a day or two late settling the monthly bills for fuel. Technically any infraction, however minor, still counts as breach of contract for which legal action potentially can be taken - although a court may of course award damages of maybe 1 euro.

Do we have information as to the scale of the alleged breach of contract? Is it one-sided or have both parties performed minor breaches ? Could these minor breaches be simply an excuse for a more significant action on the side of one of the parties involved ?

I don't have the information in this case - but it would be interesting to hear the AEI's side of the story as well before making a judgement.

Based
11th Dec 2008, 17:07
Five thousand people booked already, probably paid for the hotels, many will not be able to fly any more... They will obviously remain the faithful Ryanair customers, won't they?

I can't speak for every route to FUE but they did remove the one from DUB from Jan 10th 2009 onwards from the booking engine as soon as the dispute went public in October. Granted that may speak more about their confidence in finding a resolution than it does about looking after their passengers!

The Real Slim Shady
12th Dec 2008, 11:23
David

I'm certain that the pulling of the routes wasn't done on a whim and that negotiation to retain them was lengthy: if an airport or region doesn't want to accept the conditions of the contract or elects to to apply a variation subsequent to agreeing the contract they have to be pretty sure of their case. The loss of revenue and jobs is severe and any renegotiation is bound to be on even more Draconian terms.

CamelhAir
12th Dec 2008, 12:17
If you have a contract it is not unreasonable to expect that if you keep to your side of the deal, the other side will honour their part.

Slim, does this include pilots contracts of employment with the company?

(for the uniniated, FR have consisently ignored contractual agreements with its pilots, a position it is reasonable to assume Slim agrees with, based on previous posts.)

As to FUE, the real reason for this is of course that the routes were loss-making (much like FR as a whole), but better to blame someone else for the problem, backed up by a supine media.

bia botal
12th Dec 2008, 13:54
As to FUE, the real reason for this is of course that the routes were loss-making (much like FR as a whole), but better to blame someone else for the problem, backed up by a supine media.

CamelhAir, where do you get your information from, sure if that were true would ryanair not cancel all there routes.

Coquelet
12th Dec 2008, 15:03
Quote :

Basically, Ryanair is attracting two groups of passengers.
some even fly only because it's cheap, for no other reason. They do exist.

Sure ! Some of them have set up the "Ryanair Fan Club" !

The Real Slim Shady
12th Dec 2008, 15:06
Camelhair,

FR are keeping to their end of my contract: that is all I am interested in.

Now no more thread creep or digression please.

the grim repa
12th Dec 2008, 15:29
RTÉ Business: Ryanair's Aer Lingus pledges broke rules (http://www.rte.ie/business/2008/1212/ryanair.html)

Sunfish
12th Dec 2008, 17:51
This is what Americans call a "Hail Mary" pass in football - a desperate attempt to head off disaster, but that's just my opinion.

leeds 65
12th Dec 2008, 17:52
really pedantic

i hope fr reword there commitments ,ie that proposals would benefit 'all shareholders'.

Nobody else will be interested in fungus with FRs sizeable shareholding

Lets just hope EI dont isolate themselves in this recessionary period.Unfortunately the majority of EI traffic are irish(not a great % of europeans fly them) - if the irish dont fly=disaster

At least there fuel surcharge is gone(finally with oil so low)....... but ticket price jacked up so no real difference.strategy #1 = fail :ugh:

OldChinaHand
12th Dec 2008, 17:58
Repa, The man thrives and built his empire on bending rules. So they have told the naughty boy that he has been naughty yet again. No sign of them fining him a few million though. Its only a matter of time until he lays his hands on EI.

Seljuk22
12th Dec 2008, 18:10
FR will cancel BRE-BUD (19th Jan) and HHN-BUD (20th Jan) because of the high fares of BUD. :suspect:

Analysis FR-EI :ok:

“RyanAer’s” combination in Dublin would have far less impact than Lufthansa’s dominance of Frankfurt | anna.aero (http://www.anna.aero/2008/12/12/ryanaers-combination-in-dublin-would-have-far-less-impact-than-lufthansas-dominance-of-frankfurt/)

eu01
12th Dec 2008, 18:19
As to FUE, the real reason for this is of course that the routes were loss-making (much like FR as a whole), but better to blame someone else for the problem, backed up by a supine media.
Exactly. Moreover, this backward "expansion" continues. Today once more, "We regret to inform..." And next two routes are being scrapped.No more flights to Budapest from Bremen and Frankfurt-Hahn.
Dublin, 12 December 2008: Ryanair, Europe's largest low fare airline, confirmed today the termination of its two routes from Germany to Budapest.
The official reason: the airport fees' increase. Last flight from Bremen to BUD will depart on 19th of January, last flight from HHN will take place on January 20th.

Every airline does have the right to close its unprofitable routes, that's obvious. The question is why it has been so difficult for them to associate these failures with some cardinal faults in the marketing and route development policies paired with the overall nonchalant attitude towards their own partners and customers, revenging now. Or... just unable to admit?

Magplug
12th Dec 2008, 19:52
O'Leary has a great deal in common with Branson..... for different reasons.

O'L likes to flex his financial and therefore legal muscles just to show everyone who is in charge on the Emerald Isle. He has no intention of buying Lingus, he just wants everyone to know that he has the cash to do it.

Branson wants to be the peoples hero, the saviour of great British institutions. He has offered to take an interest in the future of several companies like Northern Rock where the consumer stood to lose a packet. None of his approaches ever comes to anything. If it were not for the fact that he urgently needs an equity partner for the survival of VS, I am sure that he would be in talks to save Woolworths.

It's an ego thing, they both enjoy the limelight but for different reasons.

davidjohnson6
12th Dec 2008, 19:55
Ryanair has cancelled a number of routes recently - publicly giving various reasons.
I'm not asking for the underlying cause of these cancellations - but instead about what MOL plans to do with a bunch of new 738s. While Nov08-Mar09 may see a number of airframes grounded, the summer season should be prime flying time.

Is the plan to park some airframes in the desert (be it Mojave, Morocco, or elsewhere), to get Boeing to delay delivery of new planes, or instead in Jan09 to announce a load of new routes / increased frequencies to begin flying around Apr09 ?

CamelhAir
12th Dec 2008, 20:12
FR are keeping to their end of my contract: that is all I am interested in.

Yeah, I'm alright Jack. Which you're not, as you're not the only pilot in the company who hasn't gotten a unilateral contract change at some point. Or is your famous selective memory serving you well?
As a reminder, how about the DUB pilots in 2004 who all had their contracts ripped up? How about the court cases to gain access to the contracts?
Or the myriad other examples I could cite.............

CamelhAir, where do you get your information from, sure if that were true would ryanair not cancel all there routes.

Probably should, but then the Great Leader would look foolish, the ego would implode and the great Irish public would be bereft of their modern day Mother Teresa.

I must admit it would be far more entertaining to watch from the sidelines to see just how much money Il Duce manages to loose next year, but from the inside it looks frankly frightening.

tonyryan
12th Dec 2008, 21:21
I wonder what the Ryanair shareholders think of this?

The whole exercise must have cost hundreds of thousands - possibly in excess of a million, for an offer that is not valid due to several breaches of takeover panel rules. A very expensive waste of money for what?

Ok then, was there an alternative agenda?

Since making the offer, the EI share price has increased by nearly 50%. That would have also increased the value of the Ryanair shareholding by not far off 100 miilion dollars.

So when MOL publishes his annual results he can show the value of Ryanair as being nearly 100 million greater that he could otherwise.

Why would he be so keen to do this?

Well, my guess is that it covers a very large 100m hole elsewhere in the operation. All very well in the short term, but, as in ENRON, the truth has a habit of catching up someday in a very dramatic way.

My reckoning is that the events of the last few weeks have been the actions of a very desperate man in a desparate situation.

Golf Charlie Charlie
12th Dec 2008, 21:41
I'm sorry, but increasing the value of a business by 100m does not plug a financial hole of 100m (assuming the latter exists). Shareholder value is just a paper or book value, while cash is cash.

captplaystation
12th Dec 2008, 22:14
All FAR too complicated for me, sometimes I'm glad I'm just a simple pilot ( please add Benny from Crossroads - or some Emmerdale farm character -accent for best effect ;) )
As a VERY simple bystander I have to say the RYR business model is far from straightforward. Transport of bods for sixpence halfpenny doesn't make a dime ( yes I know the ones that book late pay legacy carrier prices but that's only a few ) Nobody checks a bag in anymore or buys anything ( except perhaps a calender :ok: ) on board so the ancillary revenue ain't there. It strikes me that the main source of income is selling the leasing company that nice 50 million $ aircraft that cost ? 25 ? and the various " helps" ( not subsidies / back handers or whatever No Siree) that have been won from various airports desparate for business, the fees paid by all those folks who want to be part of the sucess story by becoming pilots and cabin crew at their own expense, taxes etc collected but not refunded to those who booked 1 Euro ( ha ha ) tickets but didn't show up, and a hundred and one other little schemes that someone dreamed up.
It's damned clever, it really is, but it isn't air transport per se which could of course mean that it is immune to the rot that is screwing the rest of the industry. . . . or it could all be a horrible scam that requires aircraft in the sky to lend it credibility, but is not self supporting otherwise.
Perhaps the general (perceived ) lack of disposable income now being suffered by the great unwashed that characterise the RYR client-base will flush all this out, but I think there are more tricks in this pony than any of us can imagine.

tonyryan
12th Dec 2008, 22:44
..........

And offering E535 million for a company with over E800m in cash reserves seems like a desparate attempt to get cash.

Seems like the banks are leaning on someone here........................

racedo
12th Dec 2008, 23:32
And offering E535 million for a company with over E800m in cash reserves seems like a desparate attempt to get cash.

Bid was for €750M and as for cash reserves !!!!! Have you actually read the EI Balance sheet as its reserves are nothing like €800M after you take its short term liabilities out.

Negative cash flow in 1st half year and given the massive pay off to employees in 2nd half year its another negative cash flow unless they decide to pay in 2009, either way they paying it.

Now it gets even worse as when rates good you could put money in banks and get a decent return but that ceased to exist a while ago so even that route is gone.

Sikpupi
12th Dec 2008, 23:51
Desperate time ahead.....Pax ancillary revenues is definitely drying up. Bags are now dead on the 15kgs, Others sneaking their life's possessions in a rucksack, Priority Boarding not worth the paper it is printed on etc....the Well is drying up and the passenger is playing MOL at his own game and its starting to hurt.

eu01
13th Dec 2008, 05:29
It's about time to make a few changes. There is no reason to stop selling cheap flights, FR wouldn't be able to get any decent load factors without them. But on top of all that, they eventually have to start selling some flights for real money. How? Well, is the creative thinking really so difficult?

Create two new websites, say ryanairconnect.com and ryanairgroups.com or anything. Reorganize your schedules, designate one centrally-located airport, start selling connecting flights. Give punters a choice: to buy two separate flights for 20 quids each (at one's own risk) or at 100 for a combined two flights, over double the price - but with the carrier's pledge, isn't Ryanair "the on-time airline" after all? FR could actually discover that selling the tickets can be profitable as well, not only due to the ancillary revenue but just because the carrier's connection could for some people be the most suitable one and they'd wish to pay for that.
"Ryanairgroups" or alike to offer more flexible tickets for the group travel. Only recently I assisted a group that wanted to buy cheap tickets to Rome. FR would sell them 2-leg flights for 60 euros return, but without any flexibility and with no guarantee at all. After some tussle, they finally gave up and bought flights with the legacy carrier for 360€. Why? For the same reason the FR load factors are being poor in spite of low prices. And obviously, there are numerous other options as well. Just think!

CamelhAir
13th Dec 2008, 11:17
Captplaystation, it seems to me, that far from denigrating yourself, you should be congratulated on your lucid, insightful and accurate assessment of the situation.

What's noticeable at the moment is the usual fellow travelers and apologists such as Leo and Slim are avoiding the issues like the plague. There's the usual worthless talk of Alexander the Great (whatever thats all about), legions of orders and thousands of jobs, but an utter refusal to deal with the developing facts on the ground, as mention by capt ps and of the developing opinions of the analysts that fr are in deep financial $hit.

Was it all built on froth and spin? Looks more likely by the day.

ZeBedie
13th Dec 2008, 12:14
Maybe the leasing companies have become disinclined to partake in the purchase and lease-back scheme and that major source of revenue has disappeared? After all, it's just another form of borrowing.

Either way, the big question is, what are they going to do with all those new jets?

leeds 65
13th Dec 2008, 20:56
Everyday the papers,radio and telly tell us that economic armageddon is here.while everyone is running around doing jazz hands,the fact is that none of this is new.Recessions happen,countries go into freefall and yet,like the cockroach after a nuclear war,STRONG brands survive.Historically brands have kept companies going in the worst of times,and everything points to them keeping on doing so,as long as they stay well managed,respected and protected.When its sunny, a good and well managed brand is worth a lot of money.When the climate turns nasty such a brand is priceless.

Lets compare aer lingus to ryanair very briefly.If you ask a random person in greece or slovakia(for example) what is the national airline of ireland?they wouldnt know,they wouldnt even know the name if they heard it.Much like some random irish or british person wouldnt know (or probably heard of olympic airways in greece).However all these random people would ,without doubt, have heard of ryanair and probably fly them.Strong well known european brand..thats the difference here.Like bloody tescos(there even in the USA) they will be fine,woolworths mightnt be.

You get people on hear talking ****e about FR breaking even for 08.Well that was the conservative estimate when oil was at 130 dollars and FR were hedged!Now oil is 40something and FR are unhedged unlike many other airlines who are hedged north of 90 dollars for the foreseeable.And yes loads are declining but certainly up until the last month (on the flights iv been on) loads are holding up nicely.FR will make a profit in 08.

Many people in recent times also look at family holidays as an essential -( certainly a different attitude to the one in the 80's or 90's,This attitude stemed from the boom) - .There are so many reasons for this - both parents working hard,'making use' of a sweatbox apartment/timeshare bought during the upturn(celtic tiger) and also an attitude of keeping up with the joanses.We also know all the people who spend and give the kids everything on santas list - and then they dont have a telephone in january because they defaulted on the bill.Also recession or no recession a hardcore liverpool fan WILL book an FR flight to liverpool most saturday mornings.FR benefit from all these people - more then anyone else - FACT.

09 will be loss making for every airline in europe - thats a given.Thats when a strong balance sheet prevails,lets just hope the likes of Aer Arann survive to see 2010.:{

Recessions are typically times of industry consolidation. Call it survival of the fittest brands. During robust times, there's room for almost all comers, but when the pie is shrinking, remaining consumers gravitate to the safer players.You have to grow your product around europe,anyone who focuses on one country or small segment of society will be stung by demand more harshly then those who diversify.

eu01
14th Dec 2008, 08:30
Strong brands survive, you say? The history of economics tells you many strong brands that did not weather through, in many cases just the erroneous faith in their own potency, adamancy and infallibility actually caused them to collapse. The most important point here is the every firm's ability (or inability) to adapt to the changing environment, e.g. to take advantages of competitors' weaknesses and gain their customers.

FR has a strong economical foundation due to the extremely low cost-base, that will help them cope with the present challenges. However, the carrier has also the long history of neglecting some indispensable marketing tools to build the strong brand upon. That results from the incorrect assumption that they always will be able to win more and more customers due to the very low average fare offered. That's, however, a severe miscalculation, the first results are already seen. At present, there are dozens of routes where the planes start with as little as 30 pax on board on some days, it's unsustainable even if it's concerning the first days of December, no way.

Some ten years ago MOL has expressed his philosophy of marketing, claiming that low price of the tickets will be the only thing needed and e.g. "the Germans will crawl bollock-naked over broken glass to get them". Well, it could have been true 10 years ago, but the situation was different then. For the same group of "bollock-naked" passengers is fighting at present many more low-cost carriers, the low-cost network in Europe is much more dense than years ago and the peak for this type of travel (also due to the economical downturn) has been achieved.

In order to grow, one must win even more pax. Not only from other lcc's, but from legacy carriers as well. The problem is just here. In that case, I don't think we can speak of "bollock-naked" passengers anymore. And here the weakness of FR becomes very apparent. After years of neglecting important marketing tools, restricting the PR-issues, abusing people, all the clout being just on low price - it will be pretty hard to achieve.

Being very critical, I still to some extent do sympathize with Ryanair. They did very much to popularize the leisure travel and I'm their supporter in that regard. They are still fairly reliable and on time airline. They have a vast potential. Will, however, MOL & Co. be flexible enough to readjust and change some key elements of the present policy remains to be seen. To date, I do not see a slightest sign of such a move, unfortunately.

5tarbuck
14th Dec 2008, 14:00
Strong brands survive, you say? The history of economics tells you many strong brands that did not weather through, in many cases just the erroneous faith in their own potency, adamancy and infallibility actually caused them to collapse.


Bankruptcy of Lehman Brothers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bankruptcy_of_Lehman_Brothers)

frfly
14th Dec 2008, 15:43
Completely unrelated....but I've noticed a huge increase in problems with hand luggage recently. Everyone is now bring their 10KGs worth in a trolley bag - and the 738 just does not have the room onboard.

It will be interesting to see how FR will combat this. The strict one piece of hand baggage rule is in place - however, if 150+ people have one piece of hand baggage that is a trolley bag, there simply isnt enough room onboard.

davidjohnson6
14th Dec 2008, 15:54
Raise the fees for checked-in baggage (saying that there are no plans to change the hand baggage allowance), and then a couple of months later quietly decrease the weight allowance for hand baggage (saying that too much baggage in the cabin is a potential safety risk in case it falls on people's heads as they retrieve it on arrival) ?

If checked-in baggage can be turned into a highly profitable ancillary, there's no reason for FR not to want to handle it

PeterPaul
14th Dec 2008, 21:42
The customers of FR are now all folks that would not pay for bagagge. If they are "forced" to pay, they simply wouldn't fly. Folks that need the bagagge are considering other airlines already, as very accurately mentioned above.

Therefore FR, must find another way to raise cash, not ancillary revenue, it is a spent-out invention, not enough at all to sustain an airline.

davidjohnson6
14th Dec 2008, 23:19
Before you ask, I don't work for FR or any of its suppliers

I'm puzzled as to why everyone is so doom-and-gloom on FR. Yes, there's a Europe-wide recession and people won't be spending freely over the duration of 2009, possibly longer. This however affects all airlines - the big network airlines are feeling the pain as well. In 2001-2, the big US carriers were in very serious trouble with huge losses (there was serious talk of United ceasing flying) - they all survived.

FR has managed to get a very low cost base which is a tremendous asset to have when times get bad. If necessary, planes can be parked in the desert, unprofitable routes can be closed and like any company (much as I dislike the idea), staff numbers in theory could be reduced.

Unlike some LCCs, FR has been highly profitable over the last few years, which means plenty of cash available on which to call in the short term. The next 12 months won't be pretty, but long term debt does not need to be worried about immediately - the prospect of a serious cashflow / liquidity crisis for FR in the next 2 years is low. In 24 months, the economy should be picking up again.

The brand is well known, it's the biggest LCC in Europe, and has a degree of monopolistic control on a number of city-pairs (not airport pairs). Yes, they've made mistakes - like treating customers rather badly - but these are things that can be changed over time. In every industry, companies adapt - it is possible for FR to adapt as well.

BALLSOUT
14th Dec 2008, 23:40
5tarbuck,
Who had heard of Lehman Bros before they went bust.? They were the Flightline, or european of the banking world.

davidjohnson6
14th Dec 2008, 23:58
Lehman was an American bank. It did not provide retail services in Europe. If an individual worth less than about £10m asked about depositing money, they would be politely told to go away. If you didn't read the FT or magazines aimed at bankers like Euromoney, you would not have seen their ads. If you didn't work in something financial, there was no reason for Europeans to have heard of Lehman.

EI-BUD
15th Dec 2008, 09:57
frfly

Completely unrelated....but I've noticed a huge increase in problems with hand luggage recently. Everyone is now bring their 10KGs worth in a trolley bag - and the 738 just does not have the room onboard.




This is very interesting frfly. I was flying from Edinburgh to Dublin last night and the flight was packed and when I got on I Couldnt find a space for my small case in the over head lockers! Which were jammed!

The baggage hold was emptied in a few mins! Most people not only avoiding the baggage fee, they are much more realistic about what they will need on a holiday!!!

Aer Lingus was excellent smooth flight, friendly staff, full flight and arrival 15 mins ahead of schedule!

eu01
15th Dec 2008, 10:27
I'm puzzled as to why everyone is so doom-and-gloom on FR.
Things might not be in a very bad shape as yet, but as you write...
these are things that can be changed over time. In every industry, companies adapt - it is possible for FR to adapt as well.
And that's what we are waiting for (the strategy adjustment). Better prevent than cure, as they say.

racedo
15th Dec 2008, 15:00
Which is going to cost lesss ?

Making 500 people redundant who work for the Legacy carriers or making 500 people redundant who work for a LCC.

Given average length of service is going to be substantially different on an LCC then any redundancy payments with be substantially smaller.

Profit figures can be adjusted within reason but Cash Flow is a lot harder to adjust.

frfly
15th Dec 2008, 16:16
EI-BUD - was your flight with EI that had the problems with hand luggage. At Ryanair, a lot of work is being done to ensure all hand baggage fits on the A/C - hence the offload rule should you have more than one piece. However, this is still causing problems and delays and I can only see it getting worse. I think all LCC's are starting to feel the effect of hand luggage volume increase.

Steviec9
15th Dec 2008, 21:10
As someone with 'no beef' with Ryanair as they have always provided me with the service I paid for (ie. cheap flight, usually on time), I have to say I am waiting for the inevitable £5/€5 slot on the overhead lockers.....:rolleyes:

BALLSOUT
15th Dec 2008, 23:00
david, I know who lehmans were. The point I was making was they were not one of the main players in the banking world.

PeterPaul
16th Dec 2008, 00:05
Come on frfly. This is hypocrisy.

Every time FR needs to conceal extorting money, they invent some "this is still causing problems and delays". If Hand Luggage is causing problems, then passengers are causing more. If they want to get rid of Hand Luggage then, trust me, they will get rid of the passengers as well.

By the way, isn't time to incorporate the one luggage fee in the ticket? Ancillary revenue was silly from the beginning, wouldn't last.

racedo
16th Dec 2008, 09:11
By the way, isn't time to incorporate the one luggage fee in the ticket? Ancillary revenue was silly from the beginning, wouldn't last.

Strange thing is that many other airlines following the leader as they look at what FR doing in relation to additional fees and then couple of months later they introduce them in another way.

In certain cases there is no chance of avoiding the fees as in the Fuel surcharge but there is a method of getting around most of FR additional charges.

CamelhAir
16th Dec 2008, 10:26
Peterpaul, nail on the head.

Racedo, you claim you have connection whatsoever with ryanair. The "facts" you present are at serious odds with those known to those employed by ryanair and with analysts tasked at studying ryanair. Can you tell us what gives you such better insight? And again, what is your motive?

racedo
16th Dec 2008, 12:36
Camel

FR introduced baggage fees but in actual fact they were only following Flybe who has introduced them a bit earlier.

Everybody waited while the media crapped themselves over it and then introduced them quietly afterwards be it EI / EZY/ BA or others with some slight different variations. FR and EZY charge for Ins unless you unclick the box which seemingly 90% of people do unclick the box for FR anyway.

Even now in the US now they are charging for checking bags, making reservations by phone, processing refunds, paying for children sitting on your lap and whether you wanted an exit row, window seat or aisle seat. They watched what happened in Europe, looked at the figures and then went along with it.

FR break things down to the smallest degree and then asking can you charge for it or does it cost you money to do. Next question is how can the cost to the airline be avoided or how to charge for it. Then you build in lots of revenue earning opportunities but also do things in a way that allows a passenger to avoid the cost if they wish.

Don't need to have ever worked for FR to understand it

Additionally they looked at what the passenger does before they get to the airport, offer CC to book with free flights, offer cheap tickets to get to the airport, car parking partners, car hire when you get there or hotel or apartment / villa.

Whether you like the way its done or not they changed the "we will charge you X from A to B" standard airline model, now giving lots of options which people want depending on the reason for travelling.

Guy travelling on business on Tuesday first thing with laptop and small bag may want speedy boarding, check in online, no luggage, exit row seats as boss is paying. Same guy travelling with wife and kids on Tuesday afternnon may want extra bags, not fussed about seats, may want on board earlier or may not as minimising cost but does need car hire at other end without the hassle of chasing around websites.

You are clever enough to know all of this.

While people keep abusing FR they forget that the business model they using is the envy of other businesses not just other airlines in their ability to sell on and make a return / no cost from even the most mundane of activity....i.e training of potential new hires.

Its why flogging seats at 1p makes money as have done this Tuesday afternoon bit and no other airline in but Hertz had 20 people collecting cars.

Its a very simple model thats executed well which people overlook.

frfly
16th Dec 2008, 13:36
In terms of hand luggage - I can assure you this is causing major problems. How have FR combatted this - you get offloaded if you break the rules. They will hav to look into this policy in more detail.

eu01
16th Dec 2008, 13:39
While people keep abusing FR...and vice versa. :ouch:

It is the very efficient airline, but the vast potential they have is suffering already from the weakening demand. In part it results from the economical crisis, but undoubtedly it's also the result of the dubious Ryanair-image they have created among people and media. They certainly deserve a better one, having in fact pretty decent reliability and tempting prices. The carrier could win MANY new customers by creating more appealing brand and creating a better vision of its future development strategy. Will they?

Meanwhile, the Hahn Airport's owner (Fraport) is rumoured to announce a new airport tax (per pax) on Thursday. Will FR react once again by throwing its toys away?

Skipness One Echo
16th Dec 2008, 13:55
Don't need to have ever worked for FR to understand it

It would assist you in understanding where posters who are on the inside are coming from though. racedo time will tell what your agenda is.

Sikpupi
16th Dec 2008, 14:04
New Tax at HHN????? Tell us more....googled it and found nothing..

MOL will have a canary!!

SLFJB
16th Dec 2008, 14:10
Fly regulary with FR to Aarhus.

Overhead luggage bins are heaving with Bags, especailly out bound as the Danes like the cheaper shopping in London.

Correct me if I am wrong but don't the hand baggage rules change in early January 2009 to permit two bags (or 1 bag plus a laptop bag)

If they do board early and find a space in the overhead bins for your carry on. Due to the small seat pitch it's difficult to put any bags under the seat in front

Interesting times ahead?

Seljuk22
16th Dec 2008, 14:28
There is a rumour about FRAPORT increasing charges and a announcement on 18th Dec. FR could move to ZQW where FR started flights to STN this winter. But for sure: FRAPORT is not satisfied with HHN and something is going on.

racedo
16th Dec 2008, 17:11
FRAPORT is not satisfied with HHN and something is going on.Pressure from LH perhaps ?

eu01
16th Dec 2008, 17:34
New Tax at HHN????? Tell us more....googled it and found nothing. It has been a rumour, but now you can already find an official FR response... to the rumour(!!!) - in German (on ryanair.de).Frankfurt-Hahn: Zusätzliche Passagiergebühren haben Streckenstreichungen zur Folge

Dublin / Frankfurt-Hahn, 16. Dezember 2008: Als Reaktion auf die heutigen Gerüchte über eine demnächst anfallende passagierbezogene Terminalgebühr am Flughafen Frankfurt-Hahn, verkündete Ryanair, Europas größte Low Fare Airline, heute, dass sie in der Folge zur Schließung von Strecken und damit zur Reduzierung der Passagierzahl am Flughafen Frankfurt-Hahn gezwungen wäre, sollte der Flughafenbetreiber diese Gebühren einführen.
Ryanair betonte, dass Fluggäste extrem preissensitiv geworden wären. Die gesunkenen Passagierzahlen in Großbritannien und den Niederlanden seit der dortigen Einführung der so genannten ’Travel Tax’ beziehungsweise ’Ecotax’ würden die Konsequenzen aufzeigen.
Frankfurt-Hahn sei eine von nur zwei Ryanair-Basen, wo die Iren Verluste machen würden. Die Airline hob hervor, dass Passagiere, die den Flughafen Frankfurt-Hahn wählen, sicherlich nicht gewillt seien, weitere Gebühren zu bezahlen. Ryanair habe am Flughafen Frankfurt-Hahn seine durchschnittlichen Ticketpreise bereits um 15 bis 20 Prozent reduziert, um die Passagiere trotz der schwierigen wirtschaftlichen Lage weiterhin zu animieren, vom Hunsrück aus zu verreisen.

Michael Cawley, Deputy Chief Executive Officer bei Ryanair, erklärte denn auch:

“Normalerweise kommentieren wir keine Gerüchte oder Spekulationen. Jedoch würde die Auferlegung einer ‚Terminal-Benutzungsgebühr‘ in Frankfurt-Hahn direkte Auswirkungen auf den Ryanair-Flugbetrieb an diesem Standort haben. Wenn eine solche Gebühr eingeführt werden würde, würden zahlreiche Strecken schlichtweg nicht mehr wirtschaftlich betrieben werden können – und müssten wohl zwangsläufig eingestellt werden. Der Verlust dieser Strecken würde sich stark negativ auf die Verkehrszahlen auf dem Hunsrück auswirken, den Passagieren die Auswahl an Strecken nehmen wie auch den Zugang zu den günstigen Tarifen. Und auch der Verlust von tausenden direkter wie indirekter Arbeitsplätze am Flughafen wie angrenzender Arbeitsfelder würde die Folge sein.
Daher bitten wir den Flughafen-Vorstand dringend, sich die verheerenden Folgen der Kostenerhöhung in Großbritannien und den Niederlanden anzusehen, damit in Frankfurt-Hahn nicht die gleichen Fehler begangen werden.“
Briefly: Answering to today's rumours about a forthcoming passenger terminal fee at Frankfurt-Hahn Airport, Ryanair affirms that the introduction of these charges would result in the closure of routes and the reduction of passenger numbers there.
The passengers became extremely price-sensitive and one can observe the consequences as in Britain and the Netherlands after the introduction of so-called 'travel' or 'ecotax'.

Hahn has been one of only two Ryanair bases, where the Irish airline's activities were loss-making. Normally FR do not comment on rumours or speculation. However, the implementation of a terminal charge in Frankfurt-Hahn would have a direct impact on the Ryanair flight operations at this location. With such a fee, many routes simply could not be operated, meaning job-losses in HHN.

Therefore Ryanair's Cawley asks the Airport Board to re-consider and do not repeat the mistakes made in Britain and the Netherlands... "

The translation might be deficient, but neither German nor English is my native language, sorry.

macuser
16th Dec 2008, 23:12
how many FR aircraft based there?

Seljuk22
17th Dec 2008, 07:43
Last summer 11 a/c this winter round about 8 a/c. The tax should be 3€ for using the terminal. :cool: If the tax comes FR will cut routes and jobs.

eu01
17th Dec 2008, 11:05
Budget airline Ryanair does not have to repay a subsidy it got to encourage it to stay at Charleroi airport in Belgium, a European court has ruled.

The court upheld Ryanair's challenge against the European Commission, saying EU officials had made a mistake.

In 2004, the European Commission had said 4m euros of incentives paid to Ryanair had been illegal state aid.

Ryanair said the ruling "clarifies that the low cost airports model works and does not involve state aid".

It urged the Commission to dismiss complaints against other small airports.

(...)
The European Court of First Instance said that the deal between the Walloon region and Ryanair should have been considered as a private commercial deal.

"By entering into the first agreement with Ryanair the Walloon region carried out activities of an economic nature," it said.

From: BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7787351.stm)

Edit: And the comment by MOL:

“Today’s decision is great news for Charleroi, competition, consumers and low cost airports across Europe. Ryanair now calls on the EU Commission to drop their other State Aid cases against similar regional and secondary airports (Alghero, Aarhus, Bratislava, Frankfurt Hahn, Hamburg Lubeck, Pau, Berlin Schonefeld and Tampere), most of which have been brought to the Commission by larger competitor airports who are trying to block competition and lower fares.

“Ryanair will be using today’s pro-consumer decision by the CFI to call for an early meeting with DG Transport. We believe that now is the time for Ryanair and the EU Commission to build a better working relationship based on a shared objective of “putting consumers first” so that European’s largest international airline can work closely with Europe’s Transport Commission to promote and develop more low fare flights, more choice and competition, more regional and secondary airports, more jobs, and much more traffic and tourism growth for the benefit of European integration and all of Europe’s citizens. Today’s decision shows that both the Commission and Ryanair has made mistakes in the past, so it is time for Ryanair and the Commission to stop fighting, and we sincerely hope that the CFI ruling can be the catalyst for Ryanair and the EU Commission to work together to put Europe’s consumers first”.

Michael SWS
17th Dec 2008, 21:12
It's a little rich for Ryanair to be portraying itself as "pro-consumer", isn't it. There can be no airline that cares less about its customers than Ryanair does.

h&s
17th Dec 2008, 22:24
they look at what FR doing in relation to additional fees and then couple of months later they introduce them in another way

Indeed
Thank you Ryanair :ugh:
The customer champion :ugh::ugh:

Everybody in the industry knew that bag charge/cc fees/airport check in etc increased as the fuel price increased, but since majors reduced in huge proportion their fuel surcharges, I am still waiting Ryanair to reduce their extra non sense huge luggage/cc fees
Usual ryanair bull****

PeterPaul
18th Dec 2008, 00:12
I did not know that Ryanair is getting subsidies from all those airports. It is clearer now where all those "free" tickets come from.

And to think that it strongly objects to subsidies to other airlines! What an hypocrisy.

To my humble opinion, the court ruling will be overturned, to an appeals court, as it is shaky on purely legal grounds. The Waloon region is not a private entity to conduct activities of economic nature, at will. It must observe EU rules as any other government regional or national.

Coquelet
18th Dec 2008, 08:42
@ michaël SWS :
Ryanair cares about its customers in the best way : by offering them low fares and excellent ponctuality.

curser
18th Dec 2008, 09:07
coquelet; and yet people still go to almost any lengths to avoid flying FR. Load factors way down and yield non existent, costumers can be so ungrateful,can't they?

eu01
18th Dec 2008, 11:44
EU court ruling could have bearing on dispute over Tampere-Pirkkala Airport - writes an English-language business newspaper (http://www.hs.fi/english/article/EU+court+ruling+could+have+bearing+on+dispute+over+Tampere-Pirkkala+Airport/1135242166481) from Helsinki.
"A ruling by the Court of First Instance of the European Union could have bearing on a dispute between the European Commission and Finnish aviation officials concerning the Tampere-Pirkkala Airport. The European Commission is currently looking into whether or not Ryanair has benefited from illegal state support to help it set up at Terminal 2 [there].
Also under investigation is if the support received by the state-owned Finavia, which runs Finland’s airports, and its subsidiary Airpro, for changes at the second terminal were proper.

In Wednesday’s ruling, the court found that Belgium had not given Ryanair any support that a private investor might not have given in a similar situation. Finavia has put forward a similar argument.
Finavia Director-General Samuli Haapasalo says that the significant matter is that the “business case is well founded”.
“The business activities have constantly been on the plus side, even though the situation has become challenging in recent times”, he says.
Haapasalo says that other airlines are welcome to use the modest second terminal at Pirkkala. In his view, the special arrangements with Ryanair have not deprived the first terminal of any business.

Finavia’s papers have been under examination by investigators of the European Commission throughout the autumn. Next, officials of the Commission will be making calculations of their own in the matter.
A decision is expected early next year. What is significant, is how much the return expected by ordinary private investors in Pirkkala’s Second Terminal differs from the yield that Ryanair is getting now.
“The difference in business profit is between a few per cent, to more than ten”, Haapasalo says.

On Wednesday, representatives of Ryanair called on the Commission to drop its investigations into Tampere-Pirkkala Airport, and those of several other airports.

PeterPaul
18th Dec 2008, 12:32
Ryanair cares about its customers in the best way : by offering them low fares

Some people thought MOL magnanimity is their benefactor. It gets clearer trhat some dumb taxpayers are footing ther bill.

Honestly, really honestly, I WAS wondering what was the magic behind those "free tickets". Now I know. Simple subsidy. Period.

As for calls for EU to drop similar cases, it reminds Ryanair cheering on touch-down through the speakers, about the perceived "punctuality" of arrival. Nothing close to reality. Nothing important to listen carefully.

eu01
18th Dec 2008, 12:50
New passenger fee at Hahn leads to route cancellations - says Ryanair.

Dublin, Frankfurt Hahn, 18 December 2008: Ryanair, Europe's largest low fare airline, confirmed today that the introduction of a new passenger fee of three euros for departing passengers at Frankfurt-Hahn Airport from the 2nd Quarter of 2009 will lead to the decrease of aircraft stationed there as well as numerous route cancellations/reductions.

More in German (http://www.ryanair.com/site/DE/news.php?yr=08&month=dec&story=gen-de-181208).

befree
18th Dec 2008, 13:19
Ryanair will make a massive change to its route network next year. In response to new taxes and fees the airline will scrap all existing routes. 10 planes will service a new Charleroi to Charleroi sight seeing route taking off every 10 minutes that will operate free of charge due to Charleroi subsidy and a £100 credit card fee.

In 2010 Ryanair will buy the bankrupt Boeing and airbus on the cheap to stop any one else getting new planes. All Ryanair airframes will be sold to china at a profit and MOL will retire from Ryanair to go and work in PR.

frfly
18th Dec 2008, 15:44
Once again a rise in fees -


£10 airport check in at the airport
£20 airport bag

Half price when prebooked

£5 airport priority boarding or £4 online

£15 per KG, everything over 15KG

h&s
18th Dec 2008, 20:24
usual Ryanair no brain solution to quickly increase their revenue as they are not abble to do it with revenue management/new route/marketing etc

We are in a paradoxal situation that it is up to airports to subsidise Ryanair incompetency...

Ryanair, the low brain airline

boyzinblue
19th Dec 2008, 05:49
FR bitch to Hahn about increasing fees and how "sensitive" the issue is with the consumer, that the consumer won't fly if these fees are charged and on the other hand increase there own fees.
Well at least FR have a few more aircraft to sit on the tarmac. If they continue at this rate they'll have more aircraft on the ground than in the sky:)!!

The Real Slim Shady
19th Dec 2008, 08:53
The price changes are apparently due to the fall in the value of the pound, FR being Irish and hence Euro.

Coquelet
19th Dec 2008, 09:08
Yes, the pound sterling was worth 1,40 euro in december 2007, and is now nearing 1,00 euro. A good time for UK to switch to Euro ?

aidoair
19th Dec 2008, 09:31
Today 10:08CoqueletYes, the pound sterling was worth 1,40 euro in december 2007, and is now nearing 1,00 euro. A good time for UK to switch to Euro ?

Absolutely not !

FR-
19th Dec 2008, 11:48
Ryanair new prices for drinks n food, euro/pound is now 1:1 crazy prices. C rew not happy the sales will drop and sales bonus

davidjohnson6
19th Dec 2008, 18:37
Ryanair new prices for drinks n food, euro/pound is now 1:1 crazy prices. Crew not happy the sales will drop and sales bonus

Economics says that for normal goods (e.g. cup of coffee on a flight), a rise in price leads to a fall in demand. However, an airline wishes to achieve maximum profit from the trolley over the duration of a flight - if sales were to halve for example, the overall profitability of in-flight sales also goes down. You could charge £100 for a cup of coffee, but if nobody buys it, you don't make any money !

I don't personally drink coffee, but am genuinely interested to know how much will FR punters pay for a cup of coffee, before they vote with their wallets. Is Starbucks air-side retail the limit, or will people on a 2-hour FR flight spend more than that ?

Answers on a postcard...

carbootking
20th Dec 2008, 19:35
when did ryanair put up excess bagggage fee now £15 per kilo

davidjohnson6
20th Dec 2008, 21:21
carbootking - see this post in this forum from 2 days ago

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/274500-ryanair-6-a-160.html#post4598875

h&s
21st Dec 2008, 21:35
just for fun, price one way of tickets MADVLC and MADALC on the 24th december, so one of the busiest day of the whole year, 3 days before departure: 9.99€ lol
That should be fantastic routes!!! :ugh:
That's good for the customer anyway, o sorry, there is no customer :}

why not a base in BOH or BRE????
ooo sh****

MUFC_fan
28th Dec 2008, 23:48
Just a question.

I have booked a return flight (two separate bookings as flying back into a different airport) on Ryanair this coming week.

The outbound flight from the UK says that it is not confirmed although I have checked in online and added my APIS. The return flight says I am checked in.

Any help? Thanks.:ok:

OliWW
29th Dec 2008, 13:58
Ive looked at the FR timetable at EMA. and especially on Saturdays there are only 5 departures, but on Sundays there are 8, do they plan to announce new routes soon?

pamann
29th Dec 2008, 20:44
Just a quick couple of questions in relation to the self service check-in kiosks I've noticed at Stansted lately....

Are they for the use of those who have paid for airport check-in or can they be used instead of web check-in at no extra charge?

Do any other airports have these kiosks? Have only noticed them at Stansted.

Am surprised there is no information on the Ryanair website about this service, you think they'd be shouting from the roof tops about these check-in kiosks.

Thanks in advance.

Charlie Roy
29th Dec 2008, 23:10
Charleroi also has self service check-in kiosks.
If you have paid to check in then you can use the kiosks instead of queuing up to check in.

Seat62K
30th Dec 2008, 07:53
I assume passengers still have to go to a desk in order to deposit their luggage.

Does anyone know if these self-service terminals can be used as an alternative for those who have opted for web check in? (I, too, am surprised about the lack of information on ryanair.com, especially as I understand that use of the machines at Stansted is compulsory, although to be fair I have noticed Ryanair staff on hand to help passengers through the process if they need it.)

carbootking
30th Dec 2008, 18:36
ryanair arnt shouting about it as the xmas period was utter chaos as they have laid over a 100 staff off. the ques for check in was bad people were everywhere not knowing what to do last saturday sunday there was over 20 baa and other staff helping out on the floor. easy check in nice and peacefull for all of us who work around the ryanair area were all going home with headaches, oleary will probably blame baa as usual for it . a lot of the pax were taking too much luggage as they cant grasp the fact on the baggage they read they are allowed up to 3 bags but dont read the bit that says the bags have to total altogether 15 kg so most over weight by 15 kg so lots of money to ryanair 15 pound per kilo thanks very much, oh how i love this time of year not.

Icare9
30th Dec 2008, 21:39
We've booked return flights in March at half the cost of competitors.
The main moan is that unless you have Visa Electron card, there is a £5 per passemger per flight surcharge on all other cards. Nonetheless, 2 return tickets £80 in all (no hold luggage etc) Meet & Greet plus 11 days car hire all for just under £250. We are aware that Ryanair must charge the earth for any other services to justify the cost of the flight. Perhaps rather than making a lot from a few they tried making a bit from the many they would regain passenger goodwill. I'll certainly try to resist the need to buy food and drink for a couple of hours at their prices, but would be temted if price was maore reasonable... It's their choice to hike the prices, mine to say "Yes" or "No". If it was value for money, then "Yes" if not, then "No"!!!
When looking at flights and costs, don't forget to check costs for a couple of days earlier or later, you may find some surprising bargains.
If Monarch or easyJet don't fly the routes until Summer schedules, then so be it.

MUFC_fan
31st Dec 2008, 16:04
Just wondering what the longest route FR flies? Is it TFS-BRE?

Also, I assume it is one of their most profitable routes but do they ever offer free flights on their longer sectors (3+ hrs)?

Thanks

Seljuk22
31st Dec 2008, 17:57
Correct! TFS and FUE are the longest routes in the network. Not from me and a bit old but nevertheless:

01. BRE - TFS 3.472 km
02. BRE - FUE 3.304 km
03. PIK - TFS 3.199 km
04. HHN - TFS 3.165 km
05. NRN - FUE 3.069 km
06. EMA - TFS 3.033 km
07. LPL - TFS 3.032 km
08. HHN - FUE 2.986 km
09. DUB - TFS 2.957 km
10. DUB - FUE 2.849 km

11. SNN - TFS 2.817 km
12. BRE - RAK 2.740 km
13. SNN - FUE 2.730 km
14. NYO - ALC 2.602 km
15. NYO - MLA: 2556 km
16. DUB - MLA 2.536 km
17. STN - AGA 2.523 km
18. NRN - RAK 2.505 km
19. NYO - VLC 2.477 km
20. HHN - RAK 2.401 km
21. ALC - GSE 2.350 km
22. NYO - TPS 2.343 km
23. LTN - RAK 2.338 km
24. CRL - RAK 2.335 km
25. GRO - TFS 2.333 km
26. MAD - TRF 2.297 km
27. DUB - TPS 2.246 km
28. BRS - RAK 2.239 km
29. MAD - GSE 2.218 km
30. LTN - MLA 2.163 km
31. SNN - KUN 2.162 km
32. EDI - AGP 2.199 km
33. SNN - RIX 2.139 km
34. GRO - NYO 2.122 km
35. GRO - FUE 2.118 km
36. NYO - AHO 2.110 km
37. BRE - AGP 2.095
38. PIK - FAO 2.079 km
39. ALC - BLL 2.076 km
40. HHN - FEZ 2.043 km
41. SNN - KRK 2.001 km

1 km = 0,62 miles

MUFC_fan
31st Dec 2008, 18:07
Have Ryanair now decided they are not going back to FUE? Does this then take them out of the equation?

Some very profitable routes on that list! The longer on the plane, the more they will spend!

OltonPete
1st Jan 2009, 18:50
Seljuk22

I know only one month to go but BHX-FUE????

Any further rumours on UK - Greece (Volos?) flights.

Pete

LPFR
2nd Jan 2009, 17:31
I did catched free flights from Faro to Prestwick return, both a little over 3 hours flight. Great flights by the way.

eu01
4th Jan 2009, 06:43
Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ryanairs-oleary-looks-a-shadow-of-his--former-self-as-takeover-battle-rages-1591612.html) writes today:
Michael O'Leary looks a shadow of his former self. In the three months since he began the battle to take over Aer Lingus the controversial budget airline boss has lost his boyish good looks and became grey and almost gaunt.
Sources close to Mr O'Leary have acknowledged that he has shed some 'excess baggage' but denied that it is due to pressures of a year when even the high-flying budget airline hit turbulence.

The colourful chief executive is still embroiled in a tortuous takeover bid for Aer Lingus, and like all business leaders he had a tough year of his career as the global recession cut profits significantly.

But recent pictures show a marked change in the public face of Ryanair.
Pictured in September at the Ryanair AGM, O'Leary looked his usual full-faced self as he faced down a shirtless protester complaining about his airline's environmental record. But by December 18, when he met the Oireachtas Committee on Transport, there had been a marked change in his appearance.

He looked ultra-slim -- some might say gaunt. His changed appearance has now become a cause for comment in some circles.

Of course appearance is in the eye of the beholder, and some might say his new lean visage is a sign of fitness and vitality.Well, I do not intend to speculate what's the reason behind this change of MOL's appearance. Frankly, if it was a symptom of the stress he's been exposed to, would it be caused just by the EI battle?

Tomorrow we'll hear the Q3 results. Moreover, dozens of planes are coming while the demand does not reflect this. Ryanair's development strategy still needs some significant changes to accommodate these planes.

befree
4th Jan 2009, 08:24
Ryanair has lost it. Most money per seat comes from those who book at the very last minute. Just look at the prices for flying out in the morning of the first proper working day of the year. It shows a lack of high fares. The only ones flying are the ones paying less than £20/seat. The Q3 results are not going to be good but the outlook is going to be dreadful. The new planes coming have to go somewhere and MOL option of buying is way out of trouble is going wrong.

racedo
4th Jan 2009, 08:44
Tomorrow we'll hear the Q3 results.

Given Q3 ended on 31st of December I'm happy to have a big bet that you won't get results until February.

eu01
4th Jan 2009, 09:13
Given Q3 ended on 31st of December I'm happy to have a big bet that you won't get results until February.
Oops, you are right, of course. Tomorrow just December traffic figures will be published, sorry.
the outlook is going to be dreadful. The new planes coming have to go somewhere and MOL option of buying is way out of trouble is going wrong.
To get going, FR has to fight for the passengers of the legacy carriers, no alternative in sight. The airline is, however, very ill prepared to it. All these neglected marketing tools are still not in use, the higher-priced connecting flights (to get a chance to compete) still missing. A very fast and radical switch of policies could still help, I guess, but the (right) decisions must be taken immediately.

ZeBedie
4th Jan 2009, 10:22
How much cash is Ryanair holding now.

frnikolai
4th Jan 2009, 12:56
I highly doubt that Ryanair are going bankrupt anytime soon. From where I am from, Poland - Some people would run the length of the runway naked for a cheap ticket, when LOT charge the world for a fare to London, and Ryanair charge £50!!! Every Ryanair flight to/from Poland was FULL.

Nikolai.

Stall-Warner
4th Jan 2009, 13:12
EBIT will undoubtedly be down for H2, but the Harp will continue unabated. In the current economic climate those that cut their cloth accordingly and have a strong financial background will survive. Their cost base and associated £cost/pax mile is the lowest in the Industry - MOL will ride out this storm.

If I was managing an airline right now, I'd sleep much better being a director in Ryanair than I would if I held the same position in WW or EZ.

Charlie Roy
4th Jan 2009, 13:17
He looked ultra-slim -- some might say gaunt.

What a no-news tabloid article! It's all hearsay and speculation, and doesn't seem very independent in its analysis.

eu01
4th Jan 2009, 13:52
I highly doubt that Ryanair are going bankrupt anytime soon. From where I am from, Poland - Some people would run the length of the runway naked for a cheap ticket, when LOT charge the world for a fare to London, and Ryanair charge £50!!! Every Ryanair flight to/from Poland was FULL.

Nikolai! Ryanair are NOT going bankrupt anytime soon. However, the speed of their expansion will be dwarfed by the current economic situation and, in my opinion, they will have to pay for the one-sideness of the firm's marketing policy. People from Poland would run naked? Some of them, perhaps. But they are mostly poor people representing the working class (UK-PL routes). The carrier should try to address much broader spectrum of potential customers, to see some progress. Btw., even the Polish routes will suffer from the current economic downtrend.

Their cost base and associated £cost/pax mile is the lowest in the Industry - MOL will ride out this storm.

If I was managing an airline right now, I'd sleep much better being a director in Ryanair than I would if I held the same position in WW or EZ.
True. Nevertheless the LF's and especially yields simply MUST be better. And again, the planes are coming.

befree
4th Jan 2009, 13:56
WW or EZ can return planes at the end of leases and slim but FR has lots more planes coming. it normaly sells on its planes to be used for the likes of BIMbaby. The downturn removed FRs option to sell planes at a profit after 3-5 years so MOL has a double hit. FR can fill the planes with loss making PAX for the whole year but it will take its toll on the airlines cash pile.

Look at the how it works FR sells 70 seats at £10, 70 seat at £20 and 10 seats at £100 and 10 seats at £200. 140 seat sold for £5100. If you lose 10 pax and pax pays 70 seats at £10, 70 seat at £20 and 10 seats at £100 the income is now only £3100.

looking at a few flights for travel tommorrow and it is the £200 seats that have gone. FR have to reduce capacity and that is very hard.

frnikolai
4th Jan 2009, 14:25
Are you Polish? Well, I am and I have my little brother (8) and little sister (6) with my here in London, and for me to get to the UK with them - I would run naked.

Yes we are poor, and I hope you are not becoming insulting about classes and social status...

Ryanair will keep expanding, as people still need cheap flights - it is just going to change slightly.

If they introduced incentives for frequent flyers - then they would have more seats filled.

Easyjet probably will survive this Credit Cunch but, afterwards it may be too late. Ran out of reserves, no real low cost margins, driven too far away.

I think it will be just Ryanair, Lufthansa, Airfrance left afterwards. With the rest merged or bankrupt.

Ryanair just needs to be careful with extra charges, £50 for me to check in a bag when travelling with my younger siblings. £30 to pay with my Mastercard. = £80? That is just too much. I would pay £25 for the bag and £10 for the handling fee. But I have no choice, as even adding these extra charges - LOT are too expensive, likewise with Easyjet.

I think they are going to continue expanding and growing even in this difficult time.

racedo
4th Jan 2009, 14:26
FR had 45 planes on lease as at last half year results.

EZYA319
4th Jan 2009, 16:10
erm believe me easyjet has far less to worry about than ryanair!!!the big orange wont be going anywhere anytime soon

PAXboy
4th Jan 2009, 16:14
FR get a lot more than just the £10 from the seat sale - and their financial model is likely to continue to work well during this deep recession. Of course they will not be immune and may have to get clever with some of the a/c but they have been very clever before.

If MoL's appearance really has changed that much in three months then it is unlikely to be stress about the EI situation as that takes longer to show through. Also, MoL has come through many stressful times in recent years. Time will tell if the paper is muck raking.

eu01
4th Jan 2009, 16:32
Well, that's the picture of MOL (and his wife) taken just a week ago:http://www.herald.ie/multimedia/archive/00253/2912_o_leary_h_253622t.jpg
Kind of off-topic, but you can make your own conclusions. :O

frnikolai
4th Jan 2009, 16:33
Maybe he just lost weight??? Has that not appeared to anyone? He might be working out???

Nikolai

P.S

Easyjet are smaller, less aircraft, higher margins, lower reserves = not the best mix for survivability?

eu01
4th Jan 2009, 16:42
FR have to reduce capacity and that is very hard.I bet they could continue the expansion at the present speed, but only under certain conditions. They have to get more passengers willing to pay more for the flights. Why not continue selling 70-80% of seats very cheaply, many people do need them, as affirmed above. But in order to serve the passengers in the vicinity of numerous minor airports in FR network, it's pointless to offer them just cheap point-to-point flights. These passengers are ready to pay almost the same amount of money they pay to LH, SAS, Air France just to be able to travel using more suitable and more diverse connections therefrom. But, of course, not limited just to a couple of selected destinations they are being offered. That's the Ryanair's chance (still unacknowledged by MOL). These pax are not so price-sensitive, they can fill some of the "free seats" paying reasonable money. For their sake it could become even acceptable to introduce FR connecting flights to Amadeus or alike (yes, paying the comissions) - in order to get them aboard.

As I said before, it would require re-modelling of the entire FR concept. But with the wise planning, it's possible. I've envisaged HHN as such a central airport where flights from every destination meet. Such a hub function would also improve the financial situation of the airport, the transferring passengers would provide money, the airport would not be forced to introduce any additional charges as it's probably going to happen now. Regrettably, HHN appears to be the next place for FR to burn the bridges. Quo vadis, Ryanair?

P.S. I know the opinions of many. It's not the FR model. MOL prefers just the simple cost-effective solutions, the frills like connecting flights do not fit at all. Maybe, but the limits of this system are now becoming more apparent than ever. The enterprise always has to be flexible and at times some very radical approaches are simply unavoidable.

toledoashley
4th Jan 2009, 17:36
With the downfall of AZ, maybe FR could expand further in Bergamo (flights to Eastern Europe & Balkans, Greece, Turkey etc) - Could have an extra 3/4 aircraft there. Further expansion in EE with hub in either Poland or Riga, or with traditional 'sun' destinations.

frelli
6th Jan 2009, 15:13
Plus some old routes pushed out the booking engine

News - 2009-01-06 Ryanair (http://www.theairdb.com/news/2009-01-06-ryanair.html)

racedo
6th Jan 2009, 15:28
Dublin to Bari is a one off for WC2010 qualifiers.

racedo
6th Jan 2009, 15:30
Pax numbers in Dec were 4.37m up 11% v Dec 07, with load factor of 79% unchanged from 07 with total numbers for year of 57.7M a load factor of 81.5%.

en2r
6th Jan 2009, 21:40
The 2nd Aer Lingus bid is now surely dead. When the deadline for acceptances closed yesterday Ryanair had received acceptances from 29.83% of Shareholders. Doesn't sound too bad until you discover this includes Ryanair's existing shareholding of 29.82%. That means just 0.01% of Aer Lingus shareholders voted to accept the deal. This surely must be a major embarassment for MOL. Howver he has extended the deadline for a further 5 weeks until February 13th. Maybe he might reach 0.02% by then!!

Bearcat
6th Jan 2009, 21:43
there's a lot of bar room postering going on....i detect a brawl shortly.

racedo
6th Jan 2009, 23:59
Wouldn't be so sure the bid is dead. Seems lots of stuff coming out about the compensation plan thought up by the board to look after themselves in event of a takeover.......really engenders employee loyalty. Especially given the boards exit from Shannon and now return, BFS and now cut back and idea that you can compete out of Gatwick where EZY and others will relish the fight.

Expecation is price will go up as price was always low, however if bid fails then share price will collapse as no other bids on the horizon and was already at €1 before bid so expect it to go below that. EI is in a corner and its main market is in major recession.....expect 2009 to be bad.

Faced with that you many find some of the big groups decide to cut a better deal at or around €2.

Funny the so called White Knight 24 year old investor seems to have died a quick death.

Option for shareholders is sell at best price or watch share price fall through the floor as no chance of dividends and growth prospects are not good.

Bearcat
7th Jan 2009, 02:03
oh another big yawn imperial media spin from racedo again...watch out the share price will collapse stuff if the pathetic 1.40 bid is'nt rammed through....racedo it aint going to happen......how much are ryanair paying you to defend a pathetic bid that has no support for outside the FR camp?? yawn , yawn and yawn

frfly
7th Jan 2009, 06:14
If it doesnt succeed - I expect a huge expansion out of DUB for FR, on every existing EI route. If they can't have them - they will simply do their best to put them out of business.

positive
7th Jan 2009, 06:41
Ryanair have tried their best with expanding out of Dublin over the last couple of years to put Aer Lingus out of business but Aer Lingus have held their own to date.There is enough room for both airlines at Dublin.

frnikolai
7th Jan 2009, 07:13
I predict that at the last minute, Aer Lingus would have accepted the bid for a merger. Wait and see, it will come as a shock - but it is going to happen.

Nikolai

befree
7th Jan 2009, 08:08
Ryanair and easyjet have reported load factors for December. They may seem not to bad at 79% and 82.3% but they are on the back of ryanair grounding around 15% of the fleet. It is also noticable that people are avaoiding FR for the vital holiday flight as they suffer more from canciled flights.

Ryanair had 4.37M seats booked for december meaning if had 1.16M unsold seats. In addition it has a no show rate around 12%. and 26 planes doing nothing for weeks.

Easyjet had 3.11M seats booked and 0.669m unsold seats. As the fares are higher they are likely to have less no shows.

Which airline had the greatest income and the least total costs?

curser
7th Jan 2009, 08:11
Quite, Bearcat. Racedo normally loves quoting numbers but he's got none left worth quoting, so now we see the ugly face of FR PR "join or else"
.01% uptake after all you're spin and effort. You know MOL is in trouble, your yields are dreadful, your figures well, .01% says it all really.
Frnikolai thanks so much for your prediction, its wonderful to have clairvoyance in your skill set. Would you mind if I have a go? I predict...that you won't have your contract renewed if you don't deliver better spin.
Best of luck to all the genuine Pilots out there have a prosperous and safe 09.

Lord Lardy
7th Jan 2009, 09:03
I predict that at the last minute, Aer Lingus would have accepted the bid for a merger. Wait and see, it will come as a shock - but it is going to happen.


Stay off the wine, christmas is over. Aer Lingus are a public company. It's the shareholders that decide whether to accept the offer. The majority won't. This takeover at this present time is dead in the water. MOL is scrambling trying to arrange an EGM on the recent finance package organised for the top brass in the company. He is trying to sway the government into selling and they won't. I don't for one minute doubt however that they won't get more that their current holding of 29% after the next deadline in February. They won't get the sufficient backing to take control, and if he can't get the Government to sell, there isn't a snowballs chance of the EU approving it.

racedo
7th Jan 2009, 10:30
oh another big yawn imperial media spin from racedo again...watch out the share price will collapse stuff if the pathetic 1.40 bid is'nt rammed through....racedo it aint going to happen......how much are ryanair paying you to defend a pathetic bid that has no support for outside the FR camp?? yawn , yawn and yawn

Share price was hovering just above €1 before the bid, share price had already collapsed and is only at its current level because FR made a bid.

Has the market sentiment that values EI changed so much that EI is now worth a lot more ?

Hardly as management have already conceded that they need to return to SNN, spend €100M on a new LGW base and reduced flights from BFS. Its cost base is still well above FR and EZY and that is no going to change. As mentioned before it is not generating cash to fund its own activities.

It doesn't inspire investor confidence.

Shares valued on basis of future dividends or future growth prospects and neither are looking rosy.

racedo
7th Jan 2009, 10:33
It is also noticable that people are avaoiding FR for the vital holiday flight as they suffer more from canciled flights. Sources please.

racedo
7th Jan 2009, 10:36
Quite, Bearcat. Racedo normally loves quoting numbers but he's got none left worth quoting, so now we see the ugly face of FR PR "join or else"

Another of the lets abuse because we have been unable to disprove anything thats posted brigade.

45989
7th Jan 2009, 11:24
racedo
Pack it in. Quit the carping. It's effectively all over.
Now let's wait for ryr's next set of results
Maybe time to start a pot, winner takes all if you can guess the losses
to the nearest 100m Euro

curser
7th Jan 2009, 11:30
Come now Racedo, where's the abuse? Disprove what? you've never put forward anything to disprove.
The market looked at all the numbers as proposed by FR and over the course of many weeks .01% of the share holders shared your view.
All your arguments have been shown to be baseless. All your spin all your blathering and you convinced .01%.

curser
7th Jan 2009, 11:42
Ps,.Racedo are you sure you want to tie your argument to share price? The markets are distressed across the board, FRs' have been caught up in the general trend, and this before the figures are published.
Just how much will FR have to pay this year for aircraft it plans to park up? Christ lad/lassie keep your head down, FRs in more trouble than we know.

davidjohnson6
7th Jan 2009, 12:03
While 0.01% of shareholder acceptances is a derisorily low figure, the battle is not over yet. It is possible that MOL when he first issued the bid late in 2008, knew that the bid price was too low, and will now offer a more realistic figure. An improved offer may include a paper/cash mix as part of the bid, rather than pure cash. Getting some form of loan (expensive, but likely to be refinancable at a lower interest rate in 2 years time) should be do-able, since a merged airline would have a near monopoly on air transport to/from Ireland and thus capable of generating plenty of cash.

The controvery over the board compensation scheme at Aer Lingus might just be a red herring that blows over shortly - or it might lead to further enquiries. Ryanair's bid advisers should certainly be working on a way to use this to their advantage - is there anything about director's formal duties in this ? If there are any experts on Irish company law, please speak up !

At the moment it seems unlikely MOL will win the bid, but there is still the possibility of a few surprises yet. Corporate finance battles have sometimes gone on for several months before reaching a conclusion. Let this saga run its course...

racedo
7th Jan 2009, 12:27
Pack it in. Quit the carping. It's effectively all over.
Now let's wait for ryr's next set of results
Maybe time to start a pot, winner takes all if you can guess the losses
to the nearest 100m Euro

Really ?

So which airline has generated Cash form its existing operations and which one is digging into its reserves ?

EI has watched its passenger numbers fall through the floor and now commits itself to a second expansion when the first hasn't worked.

EI has to pay millions to sack staff and hope that its cost cutting works.

So you really want to go with the losses idea ????

racedo
7th Jan 2009, 12:33
Ps,.Racedo are you sure you want to tie your argument to share price? The markets are distressed across the board, FRs' have been caught up in the general trend, and this before the figures are published.
Just how much will FR have to pay this year for aircraft it plans to park up? Christ lad/lassie keep your head down, FRs in more trouble than we know.

Really so EI having to pay millions to sack staff, on your second base plan when first hasn't worked and having no competitive position v everyone else and somehow the takeover airline who has seen pax number rise 15% is the one in trouble.....hahahaha.

EI share price has got nowhere to go as nobody else can take it over and with FR sitting there nobody else is going to try.

If bid fails then look at sub €1 price so as an employee who has shares do you hold on or watch it go down the swanee for a couple of years possible never to come back.

davidjohnson6
7th Jan 2009, 12:48
If bid fails then look at sub €1 price so as an employee who has shares do you hold on or watch it go down the swanee for a couple of years possible never to come backAer Lingus employees of course have a choice between backing or declining the Ryanair bid. Many an EI employee will of course be considering job security in the event that a Ryanair takeover takes place and the subsequent financial implications compared to how much might be gained from a rise in the share price. Apart from Aer Lingus and Ryanair, there are very few other major employers in Dublin and Cork of staff with airline-specific job skills.

History teaches that turkeys rarely vote for Xmas

Lord Lardy
7th Jan 2009, 13:00
Corporate finance battles have sometimes gone on for several months before reaching a conclusion. Let this saga run its course...

Under Irish takeover rules it can run for something like 60 days from the day the offer was first made. A new offer can be made within the first 48 days, however after this they are tied into their original proposal.

curser
7th Jan 2009, 13:47
Did you really type?
the takeover airline who has seen pax number rise 15% is the one in trouble.....hahahaha.
You're a strange little creature and I'm done with you.

eu01
7th Jan 2009, 17:26
FR has extended its jet fuel hedging position. According to MOL the carrier has secured 50% of its requirement for the first 3 quarters of the fiscal year at $700 per tonne (approximately $64 per barrel).

This will lock in a 42% reduction of Ryanair's hedged fuel cost per passenger compared to fiscal 2008/09 said O'Leary adding that the move would enable Ryanair to grow traffic and reduce fares during the recession.

befree
7th Jan 2009, 18:30
The spot price for oil in the USA has dropped to $44/barrel. approximately $64 per barrel is not that good a deal in the short term. In the medium term the oil price will rise as the oil firms have stopped investing in new capacity. It is a very unstable market as high oil prices lead to a massive fall in flying which then lead to a surplus of oil! Low oil prices will cause a year of under investment and reduced capacity in the oil industry. When it looks like the price will rocket the speculators will jump in again.

The one thing that Ryanair did very well at was buy oil hedges at just the best time. It seems to have lost that gift.

45989
7th Jan 2009, 21:56
Racedo

There is a huge difference between CASH as in real cash and
US eximbank "cash"
Thankfully there are accounting standards.
Eventually the truth will emerge

Your question will answer itself!!!!

racedo
7th Jan 2009, 23:38
45989

Bottom line is that any business that is incapable of generating cash from its existing operations has pretty little future.

As to your claim that somehow FR are hiding liabilities using US Export cash well fraid they are pretty good at declaring their liabilities.Given that one of its finance guy went to EI then if they were hiding stuff he would be more than happy to ensure it gets released.

Good thing about US export bank is that they provide financing at low low rates to ensure US industry get the business, adding in a weak $ to € then FR are well hedged on purchases.

Keep believeing the idea that you burn through your cash and you will survive.....lenders love business like this as they just ask for high interest because even they know its unsustainable.

Bearcat
8th Jan 2009, 02:12
yawn again re above.

TartinTon
8th Jan 2009, 10:28
befree...you clearly don't understand the oil markets and just how good the FR position is in relation to its competitors.

The current spot price bears only a passing relationship to the future hedge price as this is dependant on what is expected to happen and how the speculators respond to that. FR have bought at a price that Easy can only dream of as Easy have hedged 60% of their S09 requirement at $1200 compared to $700 of FR....and FR have lost their touch??

As for the oil companies not adding capacity....that doesn't matter as the supply of oil is more than sufficient for current demand and the demand for the foreseeable future therefore there is no upward pressure on the price of oil. US oil stockpiles are rising and we're in the middle of a global recession. Who's need for oil is increasing?

If MOL really wants to hurt Easy he's got all the tools available to do it and Easy can do nothing to prevent it except bleed cash.

MUFC_fan
8th Jan 2009, 16:31
The thing between FR and U2 is that they generally serve different people.

We have seen over the last few years that there is easily capacity for both carriers.


If MOL really wants to hurt Easy he's got all the tools available to do it and Easy can do nothing to prevent it except bleed cash.


Absolute rubbish. MOL does have a lot of power against carriers like Jet2, SkyEurope etc. etc. but when they pit it against U2 there is not much chance they are going to fight them out of the market.

If you can explain to me how FR can force U2 out of airports such as LGW and AGP where they have VERY lucrative routes which fund a lot of their revenue then I think even MOL would love to hear from you! Even he has admitted that U2 will still be around when he named the airlines that would be left after the recession.

Ametyst2
8th Jan 2009, 16:59
easyJet compete directly with Ryanair on 6 routes out of Liverpool and U2 remain the dominate carrier on all the routes and has even seen ryanair retreat from the Liverpool to Faro route this summer after only 6 months on the route.

racedo
8th Jan 2009, 19:21
Even he has admitted that U2 will still be around when he named the airlines that would be left after the recession.

Think he word was probably as that was when Sir Stelios was throwing his weight around the boardroom.

I wonder at an EZY/BA tie up as strangely seems to fit.

EI-BUD
8th Jan 2009, 19:52
So which airline has generated Cash form its existing operations and which one is digging into its reserves ?

EI has watched its passenger numbers fall through the floor and now commits itself to a second expansion when the first hasn't worked.

EI has to pay millions to sack staff and hope that its cost cutting works.

So you really want to go with the losses idea ????


racedo,
Have you heard of global credit crunch? Have you heard of most firms talking of survival this year rather than profitability. Many businesses and especially airlines are not generating cash, and as a result the ones that have 'reserves' will survive.

You are so down on Aer Lingus. This may come as news but the competitors at Belfast of Aer Lingus are in a similar position, Easyjet and Ryanair included. So dont forget to say that the bases for other airlines at Belfast are 'not working' also.

Aer Lingus have been robust to survive and amass a significant bank balance alongside Ryanair at Dublin airport. If Aer Lingus is such a basket case why does MOL want it so bad???

Gatwick will do comfortably well, a combination of Aer Lingus' low cost base, low fares and civilised service will deliver a success story. Possibility of Cooperation with BA will also yield fruit.

Finally, re your comments about spending millions on 'sacking staff' in a hope it works. Again back to my first point, credit crunch, review of costs etc. Aer Lingus is addressing its cost base to secure its survival in the future.

I wish you would cut Aer Lingus some slack.....

racedo
8th Jan 2009, 20:03
Finally, re your comments about spending millions on 'sacking staff' in a hope it works. Again back to my first point, credit crunch, review of costs etc. Aer Lingus is addressing its cost base to secure its survival in the future.

If EI was addressing its cost base down close to the level of EZY/FR you might have a good arguement but its not even close.

frfly
8th Jan 2009, 22:00
Its so interesting - I'm reading a book about Ryanair at the moment, and the early chapters are dominated by Ryanair's fight to survive against a powerful Aer Lingus in DUB on the DUB LON market back in the late 80's. It was actually pot luck Ryanair even survived, when it was granted exclusive rights into STN and Aer Lingus were told they had to leave the Essex airport for something like 3 years. Imagine if that hadn't have happened - who ever would have thought it would be the other way around now - with the possibility of Ryanair taking over Aer Lingus.

Hawk
9th Jan 2009, 20:26
Please focus on the arguments and content and do not resort to personal attacks. Two posts have now been deleted. The Site takes seriously any attempt to "out" or reveal the identity of a member contributing to this forum and Moderators will sanction individuals who persist with this type of discussion.

Thank you
AA&R Mods.

daz211
9th Jan 2009, 20:39
RYAAY Ryanair in talks with NFTA about flights to Niagara Falls (http://www.tradingmarkets.com/.site/news/Stock%20News/2117511/)

eu01
10th Jan 2009, 07:18
Next Tuesday (Jan 13th) Ryanair's Deputy Chief Executive Officer Michael Cawley will held the press conference in Germany (HHN), to make a "significant announcement for Frankfurt-Hahn". The conference starts at 11:30, the announcement will give the details of already-hinted retreat from this important FR's stronghold in Germany. It could be a very severe move, as rumoured. Job losses, a large number of flight/route cancellations expected, several planes based there will be transferred to other airports. The assembly of all local Ryanair staff and management will take place one hour before the press event in Hahn Meeting Center.

The official reason: so called Hahn-Taler, a new passenger fee.

beaucaire
10th Jan 2009, 14:19
To be fair - most airports that are served by Ryanair charge higher fees than HHN ...here in France Marseille charges a whopping 32 €/pax..while HHN is just requesting half of that amount.Now that they want to increase 3 €/pax,Ryanair threatens to pull out 6 planes -ridicoulous !!!

anna_list
10th Jan 2009, 14:50
Ryanair have already acknowledged that Hahn is one of their two loss making bases (the other being Shannon). Here is their chance to kill off all the underperforming routes from Hahn.

Leaving aside the usual discussion of loads vs yields as I don't have any data for the latter, here are the worst performing routes from Hahn for 2008 (Jan - Oct) in terms of load factor, worst first:

Klagenfurt*, Lubeck*, Verona, Prague*, Skavsta, Wroclaw, Bratislava, Birmingham*, Bergamo, Dublin, Prestwick, Manchester*, Balaton, Torp, Berlin, Stansted, Forli#, Madrid, Santander, Gdansk

And here are the best load factors from Hahn, highest first:

Porto, Bari, Tampere, Tenerife, Seville, Fez, Rome CIA, Malaga, Faro, Marrakesh, Jerez, Trapani, Fuerteventura#, Treviso, Valencia

# = already binned
* = new route (Oct 08), so not a very fair comparison

It will be interesting to see where the axe falls.

Rhodes13
10th Jan 2009, 15:06
Just read about RYR and HHN and I gotta say I kind of agree with RYR on this one. Why do airports insist on charging airlines for passengers coming through their doors. It's a rip off to say its for improvement etc. When you catch a train do you pay 3 euro to go through the train station? When you go to a shopping center do you pay to shop there? Of course not so I don't see why an airport should charge for pax. Surely their business model and thus fees they charge to the airlines should reflect the cost of improvements, upkeep ie the cost of providing the service?

Why oh why do airports see passengers as an easy source of revenue that has to be squeezed for all its worth? Unfortunately HHN will probably go down the BAA route where fees go up every year for worse and worse performance and where a passenger is seen a s a money making tool.:ugh:

Bearcat
10th Jan 2009, 15:07
where in gods earth will michael put all these planes he's getting in the next 6 mths including the hahn ones now?:eek:

davidjohnson6
10th Jan 2009, 15:30
Why do airports insist on charging airlines for passengers coming through their doors. Airports are expensive to build. How else do you think they get paid for ?

When you catch a train do you pay 3 euro to go through the train station?Direct payment, no, but indirectly yes. In the UK, NetworkRail charges train operating companies a fee to use the track and certain major stations. It all gets added into the price of the ticket that you pay - you just don't get told how much that fee is.

When you go to a shopping center do you pay to shop there?Yes, you do pay. The shopping centre charges rent to the individual stores. These stores then pass these costs onto the consumer. They just don't tell you on the price label how much of the money is going in rent to the shopping centre.

Of course not so I don't see why an airport should charge for pax. How else do you propose the owner of an airport pays all the staff to keep things running ? Then, what happens when existing capacity limits are reached ? How does the airport pay for the new terminal or the new runway ? Money (and lots of it) has to come from somewhere.

Why oh why do airports see passengers as an easy source of revenue that has to be squeezed for all its worth?It's called capitalism. You can pay the money to the airport directly.... or if you prefer the airport can charge the airline, but the airline will still pass the charge on to you. You the flying passenger will always still end up paying. There is no magic source of money coming from elsewhere !

Unfortunately HHN will probably go down the BAA route where fees go up every yearInflation occurs in both airport charges and also in the supermarket. Those staff working at the airport want a pay rise each year to cover the increased cost of living. This means the airport has to increase charges. How many airports in the world regularly decrease their charges ?

Rhodes13
10th Jan 2009, 15:45
I think you'll find HHN was built by the american tax payer and was gifted to the state of germany when the US Air force pulled out. So no massive capital works program there to pay for. Yes you have to upkeep the airport pay staff etc but why does that mean that every year that the prices have to rise unreasonably.

The charges for running the premises should be built into the landing charges and other fees levied on the airline that the airline pays to use the airport. It also raises money from renting terminal space to airlines and shops as well as car parks etc. What HHN is doing is double dipping. Charging RYR to use the airport and also then charging again to put a pax through that airport. Its like network rail charging you the rent like you said and then asking for another 5 quid at the door to help them build their new terminal.

The money used to expand the airport should come from the charges levied to the airline and shops within the airport. I as a pax shouldn't have to pay every time an airport decides it needs a nice shiny terminal with hundreds of shops (which also pay for rent to help keep the place running)

If we take BAA as an example the fee increases for the last couple years have far outstripped inflation by a huge amount thus where is the value for the pax? They are also getting rent from the shops in the terminals and to top it off take a % of their earnings. Nice little earner if you can get it.

beaucaire
10th Jan 2009, 15:46
It seems logic that airports need revenues to sustain construction,existance and growth.But I fail to see the huge differences charged for basically nil service like in Marseille's Lowcost terminal or HHN's hangar type operation,and charge a whooping 32 € (MRS ) for half an hour usage of their terminal.(where you can't even sit down ..)
Airports can raise and do raise revenue through auxillary services,rental of shops,parking-lots,Internet-usage,restaurants etc.similar to many lowcost airlines.

Sikpupi
10th Jan 2009, 16:09
DavidJohnson...Well Said!!!

Bills have to be paid and it is no use saying that the airport should be earning enough from the passenger spend at the airport to finance developments.

Airlines like Ryanair have made HUGE profits over the years from the airports over the years by benefiting from reduced airport charges & marketing schemes all on the basis to establish a route. Ryanair has no problem 'charging' the passenger to carry a bag or to book a seat etc. In old days this was okay when airports had Duty Free but these days Ryanair passenger spend f**k all at airports. They arrive with their sandwiches, might but a cup of coffee, use public tranport / book Group A cars for 6 people at €15 per day, ensure their bags weigh 15kg or carry their 2 weeks clothes in a rucksack on their backs and the only thing left in the airport is their bags of rubbish. They walk out the door as soon as they land and return on ETD -45mins on day of departure.

Airports have wages to pay, equipment needing upgrading, governments heaping on charges on Electricity & rates, all sort of fees to government agencies just to be allowed operate with no idea of how they are to be raised excetra excetra excetra!!. Ryanair won't accept any increase in airport charges and then spit out their dummy when airports go direct to the public (whilst sneaking in increases in their fees willy nilly)

Eventually airports have to stand up and make a stand or else they will close down - hence the need to see additional charges.

As the poet and singer Bobby Zimmerman would say.."the times they are a-changing" !!

davidjohnson6
10th Jan 2009, 16:26
Yes, the US tax payer did build the airfield and runway at HHN. Uncle Sam did not however pay for the terminal building - which cost a chunky pile of cash.

HHN when it opened as a non-military airport had pretty much no commercial traffic and being in the middle of nowhere is far from major urban centres. Airlines knew it was remote, and thus had littole inclination to fly there.
The strategy chosen was to charge (and still charge) the airlines very low landing fees, to incentivise them to come to HHN, set up a sizable operation and hopefully start basing airframes and crew at HHN. This strategy has worked in that HHN now has a non-trivial amount of commercial flying going on. However, HHN has been losing money for years.
The owner has a choice - either to subsidise HHN, or to find a way of raising more revenue.

Some rents on shops, restaurants, car rental firms, etc...are either determined by leases with pre-set rents. Other rents are short term - but raise them too fast, and the companies running the shops just decide to close the stores and pay no rent !

AFAIK, landing fees to airlines are not being raised substantially, meaning MOL cannot make a huge fuss on this angle. Instead, pax are being forced to pay more to the airport, so that HHN becomes a profitable airport, and the roof can be weather-proofed.

Yes, it is annoying having to pay the extra 3 euros, but the money has to come from somewhere. HHN is a business, and cannot be run at a loss forever.

eu01
10th Jan 2009, 17:22
it is annoying having to pay the extra 3 euros, but the money has to come from somewhereThe disregard for the needs of its partners is one of Ryanair's bad habits, unfortunately. HHN has been cheap and efficient, but it should have been given the chance to actually earn money. In its effort to drive the costs down, FR went simply too far. E.g. by forcing pax to reduce the amount of luggage; that has diminished an important source of revenues at FR airports across the board. The airports have to make profits not only from the ancillary revenues, but also from being paid for services, simply to survive.

HHN could have become an official No 1. mid-European hub of FR (yes, with the connecting flights, its location is perfect). By becoming a hub, HHN would have been given a chance to make more profit on services and thus probably nobody would have invented this Hahn-Taler fee. But now... Regrettably, it's impossible to succesfully breed flowers without watering them!

virginblue
10th Jan 2009, 17:29
I think you'll find HHN was built by the american tax payer and was gifted to the state of germany when the US Air force pulled out. So no massive capital works program there to pay for. Yes you have to upkeep the airport pay staff etc but why does that mean that every year that the prices have to rise unreasonably.


Are you serious? Have you been to Hahn at the times when the USAF used it? It is all about the new infrastructure that is needed to handle a couple of million passengers each year rather than a handful of F16s.

Apart from that - do you really believe that all the military installations in Germany used by the US armed forces were paid for by the US taxpayers...? Of course they were not, they were most often paid for by the Germans (and not only the initial investments in infrastructure, but also contributions on an annual basis for having US forces in Germany).

Btw, Stansted used to be an US airport as well, just like Hahn.

positive
10th Jan 2009, 17:32
For years they said no new routes from Dublin over charges/fees,in steps Aer Lingus slowly building up their network until Ryanair could no longer ignore Dublin.What Hahn needs if possible is another airline to offer some competion to Ryanair.

PeterPaul
11th Jan 2009, 01:51
It is fascinating to see that so many people have not understood the business model of MOL. And the Hahn-Taller is squarely against the business model of MOL.

His model is "zero ticket price". When there is a tax he did not predict then this must be added to the ticket price. A price going from 0.01€ to 3,00€ is a hell lot of an increase, and certainly is not "a free ticket" anymore. There goes the advertising of "free tickets", and what about other airports taking similar action? The model does not provide for 3€-10€ tickets. Especially if the route is not a monopoly. If it is, then the model gladly allows to add the tax to the price (maybe double the amount), and blame the bloody airport.

"Free tickets" are the core of FR advertising, cannot be dropped. If it is necessary to raise revenue, will not drop the "free tickets", will simply raise "ancillary revenue" to whatever level needed. Even improvising new types of "ancillary revenue". FR cannot abandon "free tickets", it would rather charge for the hand-luggage (or the oxygen mask even). Before that they must "teach a lesson" to any airport threatening their model.

Do you know what is the concept of "a bus with wings"? It means primarily "a subsudized bus", and certainly not "a no-frills bus". Subsidized by who? That is the real question. (cut the screams of Alitalia etc. being subsidized, subsidy is the core of MOL model).

Folks, there is no such thing as a "free ticket". Please bear it in mind, all those who consider themselves poor, and aspiring for a future with free tickets in their lives. If it was commercially (no charity) succesful, would it not also apply to a "free meal" for everyone interested in the world? So, why not pay (subsidized by) the airports? Why not the taxpayer (in general , not the air-passenger). Maybe it is time to consider that someone is actually paying for these "free tickets". Who do you propose should pay?

.....the passenger?

If yes, bye-bye MOL business model.

So, FR is in a hurry to become a monopoly (or duopoly as MOL frankly admitted) in the European LCC market before subsidies are erased. Eventually they will, but in monopoly there is no need for a free ticket anymore, the model changes comfortably.