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sunday8pm
20th Oct 2008, 22:43
You say a northern based aircraft would not be viable for FR. But surely they will fly a holiday resort airport in Europe (Spain) somewhere during the working hours in between. Assuming its not already served by LPL and I can't see why the aircraft wouldn't be a success. Although like you say if its just one based then it would seem unlikely.

MAN-STN
STN-MAN

MAN-???
???-MAN

MAN-STN
STN-MAN

davidjohnson6
20th Oct 2008, 23:18
Do Alghero and Cagliari really get enough demand for non-domestic flights outside the May-September period ?

As far as I'm aware, unlike the Costa del Sol there aren't swatches of non-locals with appartments on Sardinia. For someone living in NW Europe, a trip to the beach in January somehow doesn't hold much appeal ! In any case, if you want warmth, would Palermo be a safer bet ? Or, was demand for AHO and CAG far greater than expected last winter ?

I'm puzzled why MOL didn't pick somewhere near Naples (e.g. Salerno) as a base so as to get bi-directional demand. Anyone in the know care to give a likely rationale for the Sardinia option ?

pee
21st Oct 2008, 06:52
Well, it's not just about new routes. Both Alghero (sure) and Cagliari (very probably) will become two next bases for FR.

davidjohnson6
21st Oct 2008, 08:34
pee - I agree that Alghero and Cagliari may very well become new routes. I'm just puzzled as to why MOL would choose these 2 places for new bases instead of other places in Italy

Seljuk22
21st Oct 2008, 08:43
I think EZY has the better places and destinations if they will open FCO and VCE as bases after MXP and connect these airports. Also they serve NAP, PMO and CTA instead of AHO, FRL, Trapani or Cuneo.

pee
21st Oct 2008, 09:18
I'm just puzzled as to why MOL would choose these 2 places for new bases instead of other places in Italy
Deals, deals, deals. Deal-driven policy is good for airlines, not necessarily optimal for pax (the positive aspect from travellers' point of view: the airport charges and overall price tend to be lower there). However, getting enough passengers from/to places like CAG or AHO without giving them more than a few routes to enjoy (the present system is point to point only) seems to be more and more challenging nowadays.

freightdoggy dog
21st Oct 2008, 12:22
DJ6, I can confirm Sardinia shuts up for the winter. When I work there in Feb, I always take Easyjet from LGW but via Milan nightstopping, costs about £100 return, against BA or Ailitalia wanting £900 a pop. There is no winter tourist traffic.

RYR aren't intersted in the pax, its the subsidies they want. Why fly to Lourdes from Stansted as a ski destination, why not advertise it as a Pilgrims destination................... because they dont want to have to deal with Wheelchairs etc.

Its going to be interesting to see what they do when 5 wheelchair pax turn up along with Mary , Mungo the guide dog and Midge the pet assist hamster !

Hollymead
21st Oct 2008, 12:40
Sardinian bases confirmed .


Business Feed Article | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/7901941)

Seljuk22
21st Oct 2008, 15:02
And what about Bologna? Could be also a new base because the new flights to NRN, BVA and TRF are operated by a BLQ based aircraft. FR said that BLQ is supposed to be base in 2010. Maybe the start is earlier because AZ struggles and the Italian market is very important and successful for FR.

glasgowpik
21st Oct 2008, 22:26
Please can someone solve the mistery of where are the aircrafts serving the new routes to Bologna coming from?
I´m referring to the Oslo,Beauvais and Dusseldorf routes.

frelli
21st Oct 2008, 22:31
The map of the new routes:

News - 2008-10-20 Ryanair (http://www.theairdb.com/news/2008-10-20-ryanair.html)

Based
22nd Oct 2008, 14:09
Yeah only logic seems to be that Bologna's base status is going to be brought forward to the end of March 2009. Oslo, Beauvais and Dusseldorf launched to test the market maybe as they iron out the rest of the schedule? The rest looks like it could be:

Bari - Daily
Constanta - Wed/Sun
Edinburgh - Tues/Thurs/Sat
Granada - Mon/Fri
Katowice - Tues/Thurs/Sat
Lamezia - Mon/Wed/Fri/Sun
Trapani - Daily

Bari and Lamezia would seem to go against intentions if Forli is supposed to be focused on domestic routes but maybe it's to allow better ustilisation of aircraft overall between BLQ & FRL. December 4th seems like it might be kick-off for Forli domestic services with:

Alghero - Daily
Bari - Daily
Cagliari - Daily
Lamezia - Daily
Olbia - Mon/Wed/Fri/Sun
Palermo - Tues/Thurs/Sat

frelli
22nd Oct 2008, 15:49
Actually it looks like Bologna just made it...

3 domestic to Bari, Trapani and Lamezia + 3 internationals:

News - 2008-10-22 Ryanair (http://www.theairdb.com/news/2008-10-22-ryanair.html)

Charlie Roy
23rd Oct 2008, 09:01
Also: Bologna - Brindisi

Based
23rd Oct 2008, 10:39
All BLQ flights now on sale. They've got Sicily covered from Bologna anyway - Trapani is double daily with it looking like Palermo 3x weekly from Forli as well! I'm assuming FRL's Bari and Lamezia flights will be evenings to make day returns possible too. Strange they didn't have this ready for the Alghero and Cagliari base announcement on Tuesday.

davidjohnson6
24th Oct 2008, 00:12
Announced on 2 September

Ryanair.com - News : Irish Ski Routes from just €12.99 (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=08&month=sep&story=rte-en-020908)

I'm proud of you
24th Oct 2008, 09:24
Rumour going around that Ryan is shutting down their base in Valencia
Any one got more news on this ?

looot
24th Oct 2008, 09:25
Ryanair.com - News : Valencia Loses 750,000 Passengers and 750 Jobs as Ryanair Closes Base (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=08&month=oct&story=gen-en-241008)

Michael SWS
24th Oct 2008, 09:31
The BBC is reporting it too.

BBC NEWS | UK | Ryanair to close base in Valencia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7688509.stm)

mach79
24th Oct 2008, 09:37
Ryanair-adios!!

Jippie
24th Oct 2008, 09:52
News item on the website of Ryanair:
Ryanair will completely CLOSE the Valencia base from the 4th of november because: "the refusal of the Comunitat Valenciana to engage in constructive discussions in relation to the promotion of the airport and its routes across Ryanair’s network in Europe."
Instead of Valencia a new base will be announced next week.

Hollymead
24th Oct 2008, 09:56
They are keeping the STN-VLC route though .

virgin_cc_wannabe
24th Oct 2008, 09:58
Let it be MAN- they know it can perform well, and they said they wanted to base 2 a/c by 2010, so why not start now?

Fingers crossed

:ok:

cockney steve
24th Oct 2008, 10:02
can I be the first to say,
"dere Dago" :\

A sign of deepening gloom, when the shrewdest operator in the business can't see light at the end of that particular tunnel.

Jippie
24th Oct 2008, 10:03
Hollymead: They are keeping some other routes as well. It's not the closure of Valencia as a destination but they will only close the base(and move the based planes somewhere else)

captplaystation
24th Oct 2008, 10:09
Don't think it is really all that much doom & gloom ( apart from the poor sods based there) In their diatribe they already left the door open to going back.
This is much more about Air Nostrum getting a subsidy when that ( of course ) is Ryanairs entitlement. . . everywhere else.
Pot kettle black / rattle thrown out of pram / call my bluff ? Si Signor.
They just announced 2 new bases in Sardinia, where, evidently " discussions on increasing tourism" were obviously more fruitful. :rolleyes:

pee
24th Oct 2008, 10:28
There might be also an other already announced base that will not open at all. The Italian local newspaper from Forli writes today "Ryanair says farewell to Forli? It seems likely, at least judging from the website of the Irish airline, which has eliminated the ability for users to book flights from Forlì airport. (...) The relationships with Ryanair are unstable and quarrelsome" - writes Romagna Oggi. And indeed, flights from Forlì are not bookable right now.

captplaystation
24th Oct 2008, 10:40
Now that they are Buddies with Bologna a Forli base seemed like a bit of overkill for the region. Suspect Forli was just kept in the wings to enhance their strength whilst "negotiatiating" with Bologna.

Seat62K
24th Oct 2008, 10:40
The Valencian regional government has some sort of deal whereby "Comunitat Valenciana" titles have been applied to Air Nostrum's aircraft (flying as "Iberia Regional"). I wonder if this has anything to do with the regional government's position vis-a-vis Ryanair?
Local newspaper Levante reported last weekend the concern of sections of the local business community at the possible negative impact of Ryanair's decision on restaurants, hotels, taxi drivers etc.
It's interesting to see that the spring/early summer schedules loaded onto ryanair.com recently show flights to/from Stansted reverting to their traditional pattern - i.e. with the first flight of the day (on days on which there are two) departing STN and not VLC as was planned to be the case before closure of the base. Although from a personal point of view I'm glad to see these old schedules reinstated, I do feel sorry for those based in Valencia.
P.S. Does anyone know why Ryanair pulled out of Vitoria? Old news, I know, but I'm curious!

Seljuk22
24th Oct 2008, 11:00
Why? Money, what else?

So, one more new base. Maybe MAN, LBA, TSF or AGP. Who pays the most wins! :ok: :ugh:

IB4138
24th Oct 2008, 11:05
Now that Madrid South (Cuidad Real) airport is open, don't be surprised if Ryanair show up there. They talked about it being their "Madrid" destination a few years ago, once it opened......and they can probably do a deal at a new airport.

45989
24th Oct 2008, 11:08
Pity. As usual the truth is the casualty where Ruinair is concerned

NutLoose
24th Oct 2008, 11:09
From


Ryanair to close Valencia base - | MSN News UK - news & weather (http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=10354074)

Ryanair to close Valencia base






Budget airline Ryanair announced it is shutting its base in Valencia, Spain, with the loss of 70 weekly flights following a row with the local council.
The Irish carrier flew from Valencia to 10 destinations including three in England - Stansted, East Midlands and Liverpool.
Flights on all 10 routes, which were used by 750,000 passengers a year, will be cancelled from November 4, Ryanair said. A total of 750 local jobs will be lost.
Ryanair blamed the decision on "the refusal of the Comunitat Valenciana to engage in constructive discussions in relation to the promotion of the airport and its routes across Ryanair's network in Europe".
The airline said its investment of more than 140 million dollars (about £85 million) would be moved to another of its bases, with an announcement expected next week.
Ryanair, which announced its new Valencia base in August last year, said it had been seeking to co-operate with the tourism department of the Comunitat Valenciana with a view to promoting the region across Europe.
The airline said: "At the same time as the Comunitat Valenciana was telling Ryanair that no funds were available for such co-operative activity, they were granting a 12 million euro (about £9.6 million) award of marketing support to the local airline, Air Nostrum, who delivered neither growth nor international passengers to the region.
"Furthermore, the Comunitat Valenciana ignored Ryanair's request for engagement on these important promotional issues and indeed more recently turned down all reasonable requests for meetings."
Ryanair deputy chief executive Michael Cawley said: "This is a very black day for the airport of Valencia and the city and region which it serves. Without any assistance or co-operation from the local tourism board, Ryanair has already shown the possibilities which are uniquely available through its low fares."
He went on: "However, the naked subsidisation by the Comunitat Valenciana of competitor airlines at the expense of Ryanair and the refusal by the same party to engage in any meaningful discussion with Ryanair have meant that continuation of our base at the airport is untenable."

pee
24th Oct 2008, 11:13
Now that Madrid South (Cuidad Real) airport is open, don't be surprised if Ryanair show up there. They talked about it being their "Madrid" destination a few years ago, once it opened......and they can probably do a deal at a new airport.
Yes, it could happen, but I don't think they will resign from Barajas now - and it would mean just a minor scale operations at Ciudad Real, am I wrong?

Seat62K
24th Oct 2008, 11:19
If this cloud has a silver lining (and assuming that flights to/from Stansted continue) we'll have seen the last of the mayhem which sometimes occurs when several Ryanair flights depart within a short period of time, with late gate changes compounding the problem from time to time.
I see from the "Heathrow" thread that Clickair is abandoning the LHR-VLC route. Will BA resurrect its plan to fly from Gatwick, I wonder? The other player from London, of course, is easyJet. It'll be interesting to see its schedules to Valencia.
The figure of 750 local jobs being lost quoted on Ryanair's website is pretty much in line with the numbers I've read in the local press. I can see local businesses putting considerable pressure on the regional government to get back round the table with Ryanair.

Seljuk22
24th Oct 2008, 11:28
The solution is maybe not far from VLC. Ask Villareal CF: Aeroport Castello :ok:

Bienvenidos a la página web del Aeroport Castelló (http://www.aerocas.com/inicio.php?idioma=uk)

Seat62K
24th Oct 2008, 11:39
Ciudad Real is 55 minutes from Madrid by expensive high-speed train; Terminals 1-2-3 at Barajas are roughly 12 minutes and 2 euros from Madrid by metro.
On the other hand, the new airport at Castellon might look attractive to Ryanair, although I understand that Air Berlin recently announced that it has no plans to serve it (unlike Ciudad Real).
I think Ryanair should also look at Salamanca. The domestic airfares to/from that city are truly gobsmacking!

Charlie Roy
24th Oct 2008, 11:48
They talked about it being their "Madrid" destination a few years ago

Did they? Did Ryanair really ever talk about this airport? Did this airport ever mention Ryanair?
Or was it just us PPRUNErs who assumed it all... (?)

PS - Is the high speed train connection already in place?


Regarding Valencia - exciting times indeed!
Where will be the new base? When will operations start there?

davidjohnson6
24th Oct 2008, 11:49
To get from Barajas to central Madrid on the metro costs 2.75 euros with a very frequent service.

To get from Ciudad Real station to Madrid (ignoring the metro):
Slow train (only 2 of these per day) takes about 3 hours and costs 17.1 euros one way
Fast trains cost either 19.2 or 34.7 euros if bought at the station depending on the train you take, go approx every hour and take an hour. Tickets for about half these trains can be bought in advance on the web for around 20 euros one way (about 16 pounds). For a very small number of trains, you can buy a ticket in advance for 13 euros - but be prepared to wait a few hours between your plane arriving and the train departing

Yes, in both Oslo and Stockholm, Ryanair flies to the middle-of-nowhere - but neither Gardemoen nor Arlanda are on the metro and trains to the city centre are expensive, meaning transport costs from Torp or Skavsta are competitive.

Given the time and cost involved, if flying to Madrid I'd need a pretty good reason - or very cheap airfare - to choose Ciudad Real airport over Madrid Barajas.

airbourne
24th Oct 2008, 12:03
On the off chance that every airport pisses Ryanair off and they leave, approximatly how many other airports are there in Europe?

dicksorchard
24th Oct 2008, 12:05
Everyone is having a go at Ryanair over this issue but i personally feel that they are fully entitled to leave Valencia behind as a hub - how can one be expected to progress if the local government officials do not support an Airline which would not only work to promote the city of Valencia but give local business's & local people much improved work prospects .

You only have to look at the transformation at Gerona Airport and within the Costa Brava tourist industry to see the huge benefits of having a budget airline use your airport as a major hub .

The first year the Ryanair flights where available into Gerona we found the coast very quiet with 1 or 2 hotels open in the likes of Calella , Lloret de Mar , Roses etc and the airport was tiny .

Now these towns are booming - tourism which was once dead in the winter is now alive & well and the Catalan government offices have worked tirelessly with Ryanair to promote this . Hotels that once closed in October are now open all year round therefore local bars & shops now stay open . Dont forget local bus services & taxi companys who also benefit from the increase in tourism - plus of course the tobacconists !!!

The airport is expanding all the time , building work & improvements ongoing - bigger & better facilitys .

All of this can only be good news for Gerona and its occupants .

So thats why i find it incredible that the people of Valencia could be so very let down by their own local government office's .

I think it is a sad day for a Valencia and for all the other citys that where linked to it via Ryanair routes - I for one flew to Malta via Valencia in Febuary and had an amazing time and had a very interesting conversation with a few locals on the flight .
They where so enthusiastic about being able to travel all over Europe for very reasonable fares & at not being held to ransom by national airlines ( iberia etc ) & international ( Ba etc ) anymore .

I think its a total cockcup and Ryanair have every right to be miffed off by other Airlines getting huge grants to promote their services whilst their investment is ignored and i hope the people responsible get kicked out of office .

I do however hope that matters can be resolved because i think Valencia & its people have so much more to offer traveller's like myself

davidjohnson6
24th Oct 2008, 12:21
Gerona airport has historically been used for holiday charters. Barcelona is about 90 mins drive away and has a large airport supported by a hefty city population. One can think of Gerona airport as really a sort of overflow facility for Barcelona that happens to be near some beaches. The area that's nearer to Gerona airport than Barcelona is largely rural

Valencia on the other hand is a large city. Not quite as large as Barcelona, but definitely a big city none the less. It also has a large airport.

Unlike with Girona, where originating passengers are few - and thus an airline cannot get bi-directional traffic, Valencia is a commercial centre, has the tourist attractions, is on the coast, and has locally originating traffic.

The Valencia Govt know that a Spanish regional carrier like Air Nostrum needs to have significant operations at Valencia and will stick with it for the long haul. Ryanair does not need Valencia. Whether the regional Govt gives a subsidy to Air Nostrum is debatable (there may be a public service need to ensure flights to places in Spain), but under EU law it would be extremely difficult to justify taxpayers money going to Ryanair. Would it be justifiable for Birmingham council to subsidise Ryanair ?

owenkirk2005
24th Oct 2008, 12:22
Just had a look at Ryanair.com, all flights to valencia from East Midlands cancelled untill the 28th March 09, and then it returns to 4x weekly again, so maybe just a Winter cutback on some routes?

ajamieson
24th Oct 2008, 12:24
how can one be expected to progress if the local government officials do not support an Airline which would not only work to promote the city of Valencia but give local business's & local people much improved work prospects
Talk about taking a Ryanair press release at face value!

eu01
24th Oct 2008, 12:59
Ryanair says farewell to Forli?
Let's see...
E' ufficiale: Ryanair dice addio a Forlì.
No need to translate this, presumably ;)

Still having doubts about Forli's future as the FR base? Do not bother. Some minutes ago Forli Airport did confirm the retreat of Ryanair, you can read it in Italian here (http://www.romagnaoggi.it/forli/2008/10/24/106407/).

OFSO
24th Oct 2008, 13:02
davidjohson6 wrote: Gerona airport has historically been used for holiday charters.

No it hasn't, unless by "historically" you mean the past few years. "Historically" there were a few flights each summer and the airport was unutilised for almost half the year.

Barcelona is about 90 mins drive away and has a large airport supported by a hefty city population. One can think of Gerona airport as really a sort of overflow facility for Barcelona that happens to be near some beaches.

One can think this, but it isn't true. the beaches at Barcelona are within 2 kms of the airport; at Girona the nearest beaches are 55 kms away.

The area that's nearer to Gerona airport than Barcelona is largely rural.

Completely false. Past the farming area, and you'll find the area near Girona airport (by the way, Girona is the correct spelling) is a mass of industrial estates, light industry especially, and I usually do the drive (SALT to GRN) in 10 minutes. OTOH, the industrial area of Barcelona isn't anywhere near the airport (which is south of the city) but is north of Barcelona, about an hour's drive away.

Valencia on the other hand is a large city. Not quite as large as Barcelona, but definitely a big city none the less. It also has a large airport.

And you think Girona a small city ?

Unlike with Girona, where originating passengers are few - and thus an airline cannot get bi-directional traffic, Valencia is a commercial centre, has the tourist attractions, is on the coast, and has locally originating traffic.

The majority of SLF's using Girona are (a) tourists staying on the Costa Brava and (b) businessmen from Girona, followed by (c) from Barcelona. Hardly "few originating passengers". As for the implications that Girona doesn't have the tourist attractions - think again, better still, go there.
In sum: another posting from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

And my rant qualifications ? Well, I live a few kms from GRN and we use the airport on average 30 times a year. And I read Catalan newpapers and business reports.

Ryanair has been a godsend for us, injecting capital and stimulating enterprise as nothing else could have done. Sure, travelling on FR is cheap and not-so-very-cheerful, but what the heck, it's never more than three hours to anywhere in Europe from GRN, so I can stand their cattle class.

R

Tom the Tenor
24th Oct 2008, 14:32
Your post was excellent until that last paragraph of loony tunes. Reassuringly expensive? That reminds me of another infamous remark 'Oh, what a lovely war!' or perhaps something like in the bad old days at Cork when the only folk flying to Heathrow on EI were Cork's elite whom we shall describe for brevity as the sheepskin coat brigade along with local Aer Lingus and Aer Rianta staffers on jollies heading off halfway around the world on near freebies being paid for by taxpayers on quite modest incomes being taxed to the hilt at high rates.

To hell with the days of reassuringly expensive air fares.

Seat62K
24th Oct 2008, 15:24
Let's not forget that Ryanair has another base in the three provinces which make up the Comunitat Valenciana. Alicante.
Does anyone know whether there are problems here, too?

His dudeness
24th Oct 2008, 17:52
Tom,
do you honestly think that Ryanair makes its profits out of their mostly really low fares? I dont. They make their money also out of tax cuts, EU subsidies, local subsides and on cut to nonexistant airportfees etcetc.
Look at Hahn, where they dont pay for anything at all. Running an Airport does cost a penny. The burden is on the taxpayer and the other airlines and users who pay for the missed income from Ryanair.
So the cheap fares are not so cheap in the end. One can debate if the "old system" was good, but at least it was more or less honest.

The day Ryanair does not receive any taxmoney, pays for the airports on an even level and still writes at least a black ink zero, I´ll withdraw all critism.

WHBM
24th Oct 2008, 19:35
davidjohson6 wrote: Gerona airport has historically been used for holiday charters.

No it hasn't, unless by "historically" you mean the past few years. "Historically" there were a few flights each summer
Not so (sorry folks to go back and forward on this). Back in the 1970s Gerona had a huge inbound charter programme from the UK and elsewhere. You could sometimes find half the fleet of major UK charter operators on the ground there all together. It gradually ran down over the decades following as passengers got fed up with the Costa Brava tat and discovered more interesting places.

frfly
24th Oct 2008, 19:38
The good old days where only the few could afford to fly...what Ryanair have done for the travelling public is amazing...yes they've bent the rules here and there and they've challenged the traditions of the industry..but look at the success of it, the jobs, economies and lifestyles it supports. I dont agree with Ryanair on every policy, and believe me, I work day in day out with Ryanair, but I can see what they have done and to be honest good on them.

I wish people would recognise that they are a business, not a service. They are a business before they are an airline if that makes any sense...their business is mainly flying people around europe. They aren't the BA or the Lufthansa for Ireland, nor do they try to be. They want to ferry people from A to B for a good price.

If VLC couldnt be a part of that then that is a shame, why should FR lose money in such difficult times at a base that clearly doesnt work for them. Its a shame for those involved at VLC, but thats just business.

eu01
24th Oct 2008, 20:47
What amazes me here, it's the (uneven) geographical spread of the bases around Europe and the concentration of bases in some places very close one to another. Two bases around London it's nothing wrong, these do not really compete. But Alghero and Cagliari on the same not-densely populated island? Or Bologna and Forli? As you know, Forli will not be realized. I believe it's better this way. Otherwise it looked as if FR was unable to make the choice, like the young man who coudn't choose between his two girl-friends. Yeah, some might prefer to have two or more girlfriends in the same city, but the smaller the city is the riskier this situation usually tends to be. :8

davidjohnson6
24th Oct 2008, 23:57
Before we end up with a shouting match...

Gerona airport has historically been used for holiday charters.
No it hasn't, unless by "historically" you mean the past few years. "Historically" there were a few flights each summer and the airport was unutilised for almost half the year.

I believe this is discussed further by WHBM

Barcelona is about 90 mins drive away and has a large airport supported by a hefty city population. One can think of Gerona airport as really a sort of overflow facility for Barcelona that happens to be near some beaches.
One can think this, but it isn't true. the beaches at Barcelona are within 2 kms of the airport; at Girona the nearest beaches are 55 kms away.

I agree that Barcelona is closer to a beach, but if people are coming to the region by plane, they will tend to choose those nearer Girona. I believe from NW Europe, Barcelona tends to get more of the city-break-focussed holidays rather than beach-focussed.

The area that's nearer to Gerona airport than Barcelona is largely rural.
Completely false. Past the farming area, and you'll find the area near Girona airport (by the way, Girona is the correct spelling) is a mass of industrial estates, light industry especially, and I usually do the drive (SALT to GRN) in 10 minutes. OTOH, the industrial area of Barcelona isn't anywhere near the airport (which is south of the city) but is north of Barcelona, about an hour's drive away.

Yes, there is light industry, but looking at the province as a whole, the population is 598,000 while the area is 5,910 sq km. This gives a province population density of 101 people per sq km. Perhaps the word rural was not be the best choice, but certainly compared to counties in the UK, the province as a whole would be an area of low population density - it's similiar to Shropshire. The province of Barcelona has a density of around 630 people per sq km.

My apologies for making the cultural error of using the Spanish spelling rather than Catalan spelling

Valencia on the other hand is a large city. Not quite as large as Barcelona, but definitely a big city none the less. It also has a large airport.
And you think Girona a small city ?
The city of Valencia has a population of 800,000 and Valencia province has a population of 2.3 million. The city of Girona has a population of 86,000 while the province has a population of 600,000
Small is a relative term, but it seems Valencia as a city has a population 9 times as large as Girona while the province has a population about 4 times as large.

Unlike with Girona, where originating passengers are few - and thus an airline cannot get bi-directional traffic, Valencia is a commercial centre, has the tourist attractions, is on the coast, and has locally originating traffic.
The majority of SLF's using Girona are (a) tourists staying on the Costa Brava and (b) businessmen from Girona, followed by (c) from Barcelona. Hardly "few originating passengers". As for the implications that Girona doesn't have the tourist attractions - think again, better still, go there.

The implication was that Valencia as a region has more offices from large corporations (i.e. business passengers), a bigger population than Girona province and thus can provide ample locally originating traffic for airlines. Like Girona it has plenty for tourists, so has ample opportunity for inward traffic. My comment about tourist attractions in Valencia was meant to demonstrate that it's also capable of pulling in its own tourists - the beaches in Girona province alone are capable of pulling in substantial tourist traffic

In sum: another posting from someone who doesn't know what he's talking about.

My original post was intended to demonstrate that the Valencia regional Govt made absolutely the right decision not to give Ryanair all the subsidy they wanted (even if MOL wants to make a big public fuss about it) - not to denigrate Girona. I'm very sceptical as to the opinion of dicksorchard that the Valencia Govt should have given Ryanair everything they wanted.

The Real Slim Shady
25th Oct 2008, 09:25
My original post was intended to demonstrate that the Valencia regional Govt made absolutely the right decision not to give Ryanair all the subsidy they wanted

I hardly think that the withdrawal of the majority of services, the loss of jobs and revenues constitutes anything more than a Pyrrhic victory for the Valencia regional Govt.

A compromise would have been a far better outcome.

daz211
25th Oct 2008, 09:49
A compromise would have been a far better outcome :E.

Ryanair do not need to compromise, There are Airports all over
Europe asking Ryanair to start ops to there Airport.

spinnaker
25th Oct 2008, 10:03
Ryanair do not need to compromise,
Ryanair cant compromise, otherwise they will loose money, they have no choice.
There are Airports all over Europe asking Ryanair to start ops to there Airport.

With shrinking traffic numbers, I'll bet they are. But can you make money at it?

ciampino
25th Oct 2008, 13:29
Spot on ASFKAP. Nice to see Valencia stand up to the playground bully

daz211
25th Oct 2008, 13:30
With shrinking traffic numbers, I'll bet they are. But can you make money at it?


If anyone can Ryanair can :ok:.

Patuta
26th Oct 2008, 15:49
News was posted in a local forum: A Ryanair plane heading for Budapest early this morning had to return to the airport of Bremen. Reason wasn't specified only qualified as "urgent". Fire crew awaited the plane.

innvie
26th Oct 2008, 16:22
Any advice on BHX - FUE please as booked on this service in January, but rumored to end 10th ??

2Planks
26th Oct 2008, 19:34
ASFKAP and Ciampino - you talk utter rubbish. I have visited friends in VLC a few times. The people of Valencia are losers here - they have lost a dozen or so destinations and the chance to get to many parts of Europe direct at reasonable prices. They are now stuck with transfers through Madrid at reasonably shocking prices (or other hubs). Phrases about sticking up to the bully boy and returning to the good old days are sheer snobbery nad equivalent to Marie Antionette and 'let them eat cake' - hopefully you will go the same way (metaphotically of course!!).

ciampino
27th Oct 2008, 13:07
Of course you are right 2PLANKS Ryanair should come to an Airport open up new routes and expect the airport to fund them silly Me

BAladdy
27th Oct 2008, 13:38
Hi All

I am wanting to book FR flights for next Spring. Does anyone know roughly when the complete Summer timetable is usually first published??


Thanks in advance for any info

davidjohnson6
27th Oct 2008, 13:50
IMHO...

Does anyone know when the new airport at Castellon (about 75 mins drive from Valencia) opens ? Runway will be more than ample for a 737-800 - might Ryanair be interested in flying there ?

Suppose that the regional Govt gives Ryanair a big subsidy to operate flights to VLC. Then Lufthansa and all the other airlines at VLC want their chunk of subsidy as well. To what extent should the taxpayer subsidise privately owned airlines ?

If Ryanair don't base planes at Valencia, who is to say that another airline won't make it a hub instead ?
Potentially, any of Thomsonfly / TUIFly, easyJet, clickair, Vueling or Transavia in theory might be interested without requiring a subsidy.

Charlie Roy
27th Oct 2008, 14:30
Does anyone know roughly when the complete Summer timetable is usually first published??

Well certain routes are already bookable for April, May and June. However a lot of these routes simply have the exact same schedule as Summer 2008 and these are of course subject to change....
Between now and end 2008 all schedules should be online, for the entire summer period, and as correct as they are ever going to be...

davidjohnson6
27th Oct 2008, 16:42
Does anyone know the delivery schedule for FR from Boeing (possibly allowing for the current Boeing strike) ?

Apologies if this seems a bit back-of-the-envelope...

The average sector length for both FR and U2 is about 2 hours. Add 30 mins for turnaround, gives 5 hours for a bi-directional trip. FR flies each route on average 6.2 times per week - meaning each route takes up 31 hours of plane usage per week. If a plane is used from 7 am to 10 pm, 7 days per week, this means 105 hours of usage per plane. Alternatively, this means about 3.4 routes per plane

Yes, there will be downtime for maintenance checks and about 4% of the fleet needs to be on standby in case another plane goes technical, but given that some planes are actually flown from about 6 am to 11 pm, and the first pax loading / last pax unloading can occur outside these hours, my guess is this should very roughly balance out.

Based on analyst presentations, FR have about 35 planes being delivered per year, which means about 120 net new routes need to be announced every year - or slightly more routes allowing for the periodic culling of unprofitable routes. Of course, FR may choose to sell some older 738 planes.

MOL presumably has agreed with Boeing to some extent that planes get delivered at times when he wants and not uniformly throughout the year - deliveries in November being sub-optimal. Unless the recession turns really nasty, MOL will probably want to have all planes flying all day every day in the summer season.

Given a delivery schedule, one can work back about 3-4 months to see when batches of routes are likely to be announced.

Is anyone able to provide info on the delivery schedules ?

BHX5DME
27th Oct 2008, 18:51
Try Jethros site :-

Ryanair On Order (http://jethros.eu/fleets/fleet_listings/ryanair_on_order.htm)

Seljuk22
27th Oct 2008, 19:08
All for FR :eek: Crazy! Next winter they'll need to store 50 planes.:ugh:

ExpatChris
27th Oct 2008, 19:44
As oil price drops will planes still be grounded over winter or will new routes open in next few months.

Any rumours? , if you look at destinations map on website big gaps in Eastern Europe or maybe into North Africa apart from Morocco.

Lets not forget possibility of transatlantic as well but all quiet at the mo on that.

Poss rumour that Gerona ( Girona ) will be first base for transatlantic as massive expansion started eg more gates and facilites.

Anyway lots of planes means lots of routes and lots of people travelling:D:D:D

Bravo Ryanair

adam12345
27th Oct 2008, 20:48
Just been reading the Ryanair news on the valenica hub and it states that the aircraft will be moved to an exisiting hub which will be announced this week...


Ryanair’s investment of over $140m will be moved to another base in its network which will be announced next week.


Anyone have any ideas which hub is going to get an extra Ryanair aircraft.

pikkuprinssi
27th Oct 2008, 22:43
News from Italy:
Press conference with MOL in Trapani on Thursday.

Ryanair will probably set a base in TPS which would become the 7th base within Italy.

Hobby Flyer
28th Oct 2008, 11:27
From Today's Examiner:

O’Leary: €10 airport tax will kill off Shannon

By Niamh Hennessy
RYANAIR plans to cut its passenger numbers through Shannon Airport from two million to a mere 750,000 due to the Government’s controversial airport tax.


The airline’s chief executive, Michael O’Leary, said the reduction — brought on by the €10 departure tax announced in the budget — would doom the mid-west airport.

He said while Ryanair was to account for 60% of Shannon’s traffic this year, next year it would cut the number of aircraft based there from four to one, with the loss of 100 Ryanair jobs.



“You will see tumbleweed rolling across the ground at Shannon,” said Mr O’Leary.

“This travel tax has been badly thought out and the Government will effectively be responsible for closing Shannon Airport.”

The airport said it was in communication with all carriers at Shannon on a continuing basis, including Ryanair, and would maintain that approach.

“We have a five-year agreement with Ryanair that we are extremely happy with,” said a spokeswoman.

“We are very confident their passenger targets will be met and look forward to continuing to work with the airline beyond the existing deal, which concludes in 2010.”

However, one airport source added that Ryanair has six aircraft operating out of Shannon, serving 35 destinations, that the airline had committed to raising passenger numbers to two million by 2010 and the airport was determined the agreement would be honoured.

Shannon Airport is already reeling from the loss of its Heathrow slots and the proposed withdrawal of 300 of its staff by Aer Lingus. The cut in services by its main remaining airline would be devastating.

Meanwhile, Mr O’Leary blasted the budget as a “wasted opportunity” and warned, if taxes continued to rise, he may have to consider shifting his tax base from Ireland.

The chief executive also predicted Ryanair would be making annual profits of €800 million in five years’ time and will be carrying 100 million passengers.

Ryanair is expecting to only break even in its current financial year, mainly due to earlier high oil prices.

However, if oil prices stay under $100 a barrel, profits will rise significantly in the coming years.

Earlier this year, Ryanair was caught off guard, paying high prices for oil after failing to hedge when the price was low.

“Looking back it was stupid not to hedge on oil but we’re not hedged for the remainder of the year and that’s a good move,” said Mr O’Leary.

davidjohnson6
28th Oct 2008, 13:16
MOL has gone on record more than once to say that Shannon is either a loss making or break-even base. Apart from 3 destinations (Dublin, Paris CDG and Minsk) he has a complete monopoly on flights in and out of Shannon to Europe. Thus, it's not the individual consumer who determines air traffic, but a single private company.

Microeconomics theory says that a rational agent with a monopoly should try to raise prices and supply an inferior product to gain maximum profit. Any other airline without known large reserves that decided to fly to Shannon could credibly expect some form of below-cost-sales by Ryanair until they exit the route.

Is this just Ryanair now trying to exercise their monpoly control ?

Further, as Shannon historically has not been a great profit-maker, is this just the excuse MOL has been waiting for to deploy a couple of planes to a bigger urban centre elsewhere ?

N by NW
28th Oct 2008, 15:08
Given the rapid expansion going on in Italy in anticipation of Alitalia's collapse/reduction, FR looking to redeploy planes while at the same time point scoring on the Irish market.

LGS6753
28th Oct 2008, 20:18
The continuing strike at Boeing is presumably delaying planned deliveries. Chopping a couple of airframes from Valencia will allow pre-existing plans to be fulfilled.

boyzinblue
29th Oct 2008, 06:09
On the 25.09.2008 FR announced a sixth aircraft fo SNN. Now they threaten to reduce to 1 aircraft due to the 10 € government charge. If SNN is so bad for FR (average fare for 5 months is 10 €), why do they continue to increase capacity?

chrism20
29th Oct 2008, 08:30
Possibly something to do with the commitment to the airport to generate x amount of pax.

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a financial reward to FR if this number is reached.

Remember the hulabaloo at NWI with BE reportedly employing actirs to travel on a route as it was cheaper to do this than lose the reward money

Budfrey27
29th Oct 2008, 14:26
...just about to zip out but just saw a few new routes loaded for Trapani on the ryanair website...see OLCI.

cheers
Bud

Budfrey27
29th Oct 2008, 14:30
....and when i went to quickly look again they were gone!!! Oslo and Brussels were showing amongst others i can't recall...!!!!

cheers
Bud

Charlie Roy
29th Oct 2008, 15:02
...will be:


Brussels Charleroi
Oslo Torp
Paris Beauvais
Turin
Venice Treviso

Hobby Flyer
29th Oct 2008, 16:37
SNN is a low cost airport with a low cost carrier, Ryanair, it's biggest customer. Unfortunately for SNN it will have to play ball with MOL as it has no other options left.
The sad thing is though, that MOL is using SNN as a pawn in his argument with the DAA. He tried that with ORK too and it backfired on him, in terms of public support.

Hopefully the 3 airports will be separated and allowed to compete with each other soon, and all this FR V DAA business can stay in DUB where it belongs.

frelli
29th Oct 2008, 17:39
Here is the link

News - 2008-10-29 Ryanair (http://www.theairdb.com/news/2008-10-29-ryanair.html)

Baltasound
29th Oct 2008, 18:27
MOL is funny. Years ago when Cornwall CC announced their passenger tax at Newquay he went fuming to the Western Morning News and the like predicting the same...tumbleweed and the likes and that the Cornish economy would crumble, because Ryanair would pull out etc etc...

They are still there, although I am unsure if CCC made a "deal".

He is full of puff, bull and bluster IMHO.

davidjohnson6
29th Oct 2008, 18:58
Anyone care to give an informed opinion as to the likelihood of MOL doing one or more of the following:

- Basing more a couple more planes at Skavsta. Many of FR's Skavsta routes competed against Sterling routes, but with almost complete dominance at Skavsta I imagine MOL won't want Norwegian getting too much clout at Arlanda.
- Moving the FR base from Skavsta to Arlanda, in the same style as the Forli-Bologna move. SAS would make their feelings known very clearly, but who am I to know ?
- Set up a small base at Goteborg
- Set up a base at Torp. Seem to remember the evening curfew being quite strict - but that was a while ago.

Aalborg and Billund don't seem to have the demographics for a base, but if the local Govt wants flights badly enough...

The only thing I can't see is MOL making no competitive response

INKJET
29th Oct 2008, 21:11
Above all it sends a very clear message to airport authorities, that if you get into bed with Ryanair you need to understand you wont get out on your own terms

Charlie Roy
29th Oct 2008, 21:40
Stockholm / Goteborg / Oslo

A lot of Sterling routes already had competitors on them: Ryanair, Scandinavian SAS, Norwegian, Easyjet, etc... There's not soooo many routes than have been left completely unserved with their collapse, except maybe a couple to Biarritz...

Sterling's collapse is a sigh of relief for competitors. I'm not sure to what extent we'll see airlines racing to take on their routes.

All that said, don't forget that Ryanair are (once again) in advanced negotiations with Copenhagen airport, and correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there an airport near Uppsala getting ready to become an international airport? That could potentially take Ryanair's fancy.... Maybe, maybe not...

luvly jubbly
30th Oct 2008, 09:01
Off topic, but.............

What happens to all that fuel hedged at a ridiculously high price this summer. Are FR still liable at that rate?

(Just wondering how the deal works)

LJ

boyzinblue
30th Oct 2008, 10:31
Trapani confirmed as base and Forli will now not become a base. The airport withdrew from the agreement!!:=

BALLSOUT
30th Oct 2008, 14:48
L J, Fuel not hedged since Sep, about 65 USD a barrel now.

greatoaks
30th Oct 2008, 17:57
Can anyone advise why I am told by the call centre that Ryanair do not have a cancellation policy.

All I want to do is cancel a flight ...I dont want or expect a refund of the seat fare but would like to arrange a government tax refund but no I am told that I must call back after the flight date to arrange this...

What :mad: nonsense , surely its better for the airline to know how many definate 'no-shows' there will be.

I managed to cancel my AerLingus flights by phone with a very polite Irish lady who also arranged a card refund for the taxes there and then....

And the Aer Lingus flights were cheaper in the first :mad: place..

Come Ruinair wake up and either offer decent customer service or bargain prices but as far as I can see its neither.

befree
30th Oct 2008, 20:02
If they let you cancel you flight it will hurt their load factor and that will hurt the share price. Ryanair pride themselve on having full planes but if you read the small print the load factor is how many seats they have sold.

A lot of the offers at 1p were to inflate the number of people who seem to be using the airline and make the money on the fees and taxes of those who do not turn up. The profitable pax is the one who pays but does not fly.

The 3rd of November we get the half year report and see how bad the income is.

bravoromeosierra
30th Oct 2008, 20:32
Funny that the guy above should say that. My friend and I were due to fly NQY-STN this Saturday but he has just realised his passport has expired, so I'll need to reclaim the government taxes too after not showing up at the airport for our flights (we're flying Air Southwest instead.. ouch, expensive!). I swear that if I have any crap from them when trying to reclaim the taxes I wont be happy.

greatoaks
30th Oct 2008, 20:57
Good Luck

Not easy to argue with someone with little command of the English language

Jippie
30th Oct 2008, 21:36
Probably Ryanair don't even have the ability in their systems to cancel a flight. Why should they? They have you in their load factors and got your taxes, they don't need more.

greatoaks
31st Oct 2008, 07:00
But isn't keeping monies that dont belong to you .....Theft :=

What a clever business model

Might try to think up another to startup
Sell a product
Dont supply the product
Keep the payment

Jippie
31st Oct 2008, 07:09
From what I've read, Ryanair will pay back the taxes you've paid but they will ask a administration fee for that which is higher then the taxes. So while it's moral theft it's not legally.

greatoaks
31st Oct 2008, 07:11
I would have thought that keeping the seat fare would be enough to cover admin costs

or am I being naive

Jippie
31st Oct 2008, 07:40
It sure is, but they want to maximize their profit. It's not a good thing but that's how Ryanair works and i'm pretty sure their shareholders like it.
But there are also non LoCo airlines that ask a (small) administration fee for this.

BALLSOUT
31st Oct 2008, 10:16
I think some of you miss the point. If you have paid 1p for your seat, if you then want not to travel, it must be fair to charge you for the admin.
If you have paid £200 for your seat and want to cancel, I expect you would then find you may well get a fair proportion of it back.
Having said all of this. Most people these days tend to buy the cheapest ticket, regarles of who it is with, or even what mode of transport. These tickets are normaly non cancelable and non transferable.

Sikpupi
31st Oct 2008, 10:25
Ryanair will be laughing next year with teh introduction of the new Irish Air Travel Tax.

Sure...this week he has a cut at it and the effect it will have on Shannon numbers. But come next March when the tax is introduced....he'll be keeping the tax money collected from all his Irish departure no-shows!

Did I read somewhere that the UK Govt is after him to close this loop-hole - anyone remember how much he 'gained' from the UK Tax for all his no-shows??

Steviec9
31st Oct 2008, 11:02
Ballsout - absolutely agree. I've said it before - I batch book cheap tickets with Ryanair, some I use, some I don't. I have never bothered trying to reclaim taxes on unused tickets (on the odd occasions I have paid them). If people need flexibility, where possible, book with a traditional full service airline offering check in, baggage, refunds, meals, drinks, pre-allocated seating blah blah blah. I don’t like paying for any of this on short hops, so I travel Ryanair. Where I do want it, I book with a legacy carrier. You get what you pay for - you don’t pay for customer service or support on Ryanair, so don't expect it.

liffy2A
31st Oct 2008, 11:27
I thought the fee would be included in the credit card handling fee? So it does matter if you only pay 1p for the flight. They have a charge to use the card,so surely at worst it would be the same charge to refund the flight cost at worst.

revo
31st Oct 2008, 12:38
Ryanair Rescue Ross After He is ‘Sent to Coventry’ by BBC


Ryanair, Britain’s largest low fares airline, today (31st Oct) offered to rescue Jonathan Ross after he was ‘Sent to Coventry’ by the bigwigs at the BBC. Ryanair will help Ross jet off to much more exotic surrounds as it sent him free tickets to escape the media spotlight and sample how those who don’t earn £18million a year live.

Ryanair, called on the black sheep of the BBC, who will lose £1.5million over the next 12 weeks, to make his money go further by escaping the high cost of living in Mayfair and fly on one of Ryanair’s over 350 UK routes where he can live cheaper, get a tan and gear himself up for his return to the beeb next year.

Ryanair’s Stephen McNamara said:

“We are sending some Ryanair Ryanaid to Ross. Poor old Johnny has been sent to Coventry by the big wigs at the BBC, but he need not worry – Ryanair can bring him to far more exciting and exotic destinations. It is never easy when the main breadwinner loses his salary so we are sending Johnny tickets so he can whisk the wife away to Paris or catch the rays with the family in Fuerteventura and sample how the other half, who doesn’t earn £18mililon a year, lives.

As Johnny will lose £1.5million over the next 12 weeks we are extending a helping hand to the fallen star who can escape the media spotlight and make his money go further on one of our 350+ routes to/ from the UK. However, the bad news for Johnny is that the paparazzi will be hot on his heels as they take advantage of our latest £15 seat sale from the UK. Let’s hope Johnny can re-charge like the rest of the UK during a recession – by taking advantage of Ryanair’s guaranteed lowest airfares and promise of no fuel surcharge”.

Tom the Tenor
31st Oct 2008, 14:14
Who is this Jonathan Ross fella anwyway? Is he the English Gay Byrne? Can he sign on for the 12 weeks that he is idle? That would be about Euro 2,400 from the labour exchange. When you add in taxes and charges how many FR tickets would that much buy? Not as many as UK£1.5 million would buy!

Avman
2nd Nov 2008, 06:15
They'll probably sell the first 20 or so seats at that fare, subject to 200 quid "taxes" of course! After that the price will progressively rise to the point where you won't pay that much less than on a full service carrier. RYR haven't yet managed to entice me onto one of their European flights, and I think Hell will freeze over before you will find me on one of their transatalantic flights. Nevertheless I have no doubt that there will be plenty of naieve takers.

Wizofoz
2nd Nov 2008, 06:21
15 per cent who’ll pay whatever it costs for a wide seat . . . stuff like that.”


"Stuff like that"...Shows a great insight into the premium product!

Those 15% also expect courtesy, fairness and being treated like a valued customer- something O'Leary and RYR have shown little talent at!!

SpamCanDriver
2nd Nov 2008, 07:05
Not being funny but isn't there currently a shortage of longhaul aircraft?
777, 787 order books full and delayed! 380 books full for next few years!
Got no idea about 330? so only really leaves 747, 767 or 340 which will hardly be ideal for what he's planning!

45989
2nd Nov 2008, 07:34
Maybe the K*****R from Mullingar should be more exercised by all his currently parked aircraft than a typical cheap diversionary publicity stunt

weido_salt
2nd Nov 2008, 07:42
£8 + £1000 add on taxes and fees etc. Yes I would believe that.

What I cant believe is the fact the UK government allow this sought of misleading advertising.

eu01
2nd Nov 2008, 08:11
Machinists union members ratified a new contract with Boeing on Saturday, ending an eight-week strike that cut the airplane maker's profits and stalled jetliner deliveries.
The workers are expected to return to Boeing's commercial airplane factories, which have been closed since the Sept. 6 walkout, starting Sunday night.Thus, FR can now plan its summer schedules (including some additional routes, presumably) basing on the assumption that the new deliveries will have a 6-week delay. Quite a fortunate coincidence from the Ryanair's point of view (will be compensated for the planes it really doesn't need right now, but will get enough of them for the best season)... :rolleyes:

eastern wiseguy
2nd Nov 2008, 08:14
Mr O’Leary hopes to buy up Airbus A380s, which can carry 525 passengers, or Boeing 787 which take 330 people.

Yeah right....A380'S FROM Dublin?....to Buttfeck New York

Ryanair plans to fly under a new name from ......Dublin, to Florida, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston and New York.

That would be Aer Lingus then....:cool:

DB6
2nd Nov 2008, 08:16
I might be mistaken but I don't think the government will allow it - I believe airlines will have to declare the inclusive fare in the future. Wasn't listening too closely when I heard it on the radio though.

RAT 5
2nd Nov 2008, 08:58
What is wrong with a B738 and only 80 seats. 8 pounds might be too cheap for that, but if it goes tits up he can relocate the aircraft with normal seating in the normal network. Saves on a multitude of costs and reduces risks. Try it first and then decide if larger is better.

Donkey497
2nd Nov 2008, 09:55
Don't think I'll hold my breath for this one.....

If MOL is really basing his hopes on 380's becoming available & 787's being freed up I reckon he's on to a loser straight away.

There's way too many large legacy carriers already in the queue having made up-front financial commitments, waiting for 380's for any "spare" production which might become available to be snapped up at bargain basement prices. A big issue with this is that many of the large carriers are start-up "State airlines" from relatively cash rich locations such as the Gulf so they're not likely to cancel orders just because load factors might drop for 12-18 months. MOL's only hope in this respect might be the remaining test/development airframes, but IIRC, Airbus are already fairly well advanced on selling the remaining frames on. One other minor point is that I don't recall the airports mentioned in the report as having made any infrastructure pgrades to cope with A380 aircraft.

As for the 787. It still hasn't flown, despite the first flight date being re-scheduled time after time, there's still reports of problems with getting enough materials (bolts etc.) to even think about production ramp-up, let alone full production and on top of it all, Boeing are currently suffering from production floor strikes. Hardly conducive to a step change in production methods and introduction of a major new product stream.

I seriously doubt that there will be a significant number of the traditional transatlantic airframes becoming available, especially the quoted figure of 50 to 60 jumbos, they're simply too valuable on premium routes to go cheaply & they're also in demand for cargo conversion, so I think that's a non-starter. 757's are in short supply, many early airframes are nearing the end of their fatigue lives and the 767 is getting into a similar position, the difference for the 76 is that there appears to be more demand for cargo 76's than cargo 75's.

Whilst it's true that the likes of Continental, Delta, American, BA, Lufty etc. have cut back their transatlantic provision, this is no different from what happened last year, or the year before - it's just the winter seasonal timetable as there's less demand on average to go to cold places when it gets cold & wet here. So I don't see where there's all this extra demand that MOL is hoping to tap into.

To be honest, I'd more expect next gen 737's to be used on the services rather than anything else. They might be small but they should have the range (just)for the routes mentioned especially with a high cost business cabin and a high density steerage cabin (and a tech stop either side of the pond). Let's be honest, MOL has plenty of them available to him just now and more on order - why spend money on someting when you own a usable resource already?

I'll believe that it's serious when it's been running for at least a couple of years, but until then, as far as I'm concerned, it's just another throwaway publicity line.

BoeingMEL
2nd Nov 2008, 10:54
:ugh::ugh:There has been no advertising Weido! The quotation was from an INTERVIEW with MOL! At least for the time being, the government does allow interviews! Cheers bm

Castaway2008
2nd Nov 2008, 10:59
I might be mistaken but I don't think the government will allow it - I believe airlines will have to declare the inclusive fare in the future. Wasn't listening too closely when I heard it on the radio though.


This new rule has kicked in as of yesterday,but no doubt MOL will have a loop hole already found in it!

EU rules aim at clarifying air fares - UPI.com (http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2008/10/30/EU_rules_aim_at_clarifying_air_fares/UPI-50331225410496/)

Coquelet
2nd Nov 2008, 11:09
And why not ?
Let's wait and see what Michaël O'Leary can offer.
If it's on the same level as the European Ryanair, I'll buy it for sure. Ryanair is inexpensive (I never pay more than 50 euros fot a return ticket, often less than 30 euros), very punctual, enjoyable - and does nearly never lose a baggage.
I think quite a lot of airlines have something to fear, if MOL goes ahead with its plan.

Code 100
2nd Nov 2008, 11:11
It could be believed if the article was written by a respected business/aviation correspondent for a respected newspaper, rather than a sensationalist rag.

daz211
2nd Nov 2008, 11:26
You people make me sick :yuk:.
If anyone can do this MOL can :ok:.

Look how Ryanair has become one of the largest Airlines in the world
It has grown from a tiny Airline flying a couple of short routes on 732 aircraft to having one of the largest most modern fleets of 738 aircraft
with 100's more on order.

I remember when Ryanair started flights from STN-TSF one of the first routes in its European expansion, people said it would never work the price was to low and the airport is to far out.

Look how wrong people were back then, so many people said 1p flights to
Italy just would not work.

How many people 10 years ago would have thought they could fly to Europe for £10 rtn and before you say it f:mad:k the charges and tax its still well cheap.

So now think what is so unbelievable about £8 to the USA, yer add tax and s:mad:t and its more than £8 but it will still be the cheapest way to cross the pond by far.

And I bet you any money that the shamless AA and BA wont gang up on FR like they did with MAXJET and EOS by start fake flights to the USA then pull out when they get rid of the threat, Ryanair are stronger than many think and that includes you old timers on here that are stuck in your ways and those that think that BA is the UK flag carrier.

FR-
2nd Nov 2008, 11:38
How many times does it have to be said, all the transatlantic flights will be done by another 'new' company, not Ryanair.

dublin_eire
2nd Nov 2008, 13:44
Irish have great access to U.S.A at mo! €250 return to Washington with Aer Lingus at moment. I'm surprised they don't advertise more in Britain to attract people there to fly to Dublin and onwards.....

I think it will be a success myself. Personally, I don't mind making a packed lunch and selecting how many bags I take. Put it this way I got a flight for €10 return to London recently and if Ryanair can do the same westwards as it had done eastwards then I'm all in favour. If you want the extras then pay for them.... As an Irish man I would think it imperative that the Irish government give Ryanair and Aer Lingus 'landing fee free' flights out of the likes of Shannon and Knock to incentivise these as European connecter hubs with U.S.A.

But it also seems to me Ryanair has a better service than most other airlines. Did anybody see the documentary on BA recently with all the "cancelled" flights and lost baggage?

Easy Ryder
2nd Nov 2008, 14:15
Maybe they all hedged fuel at a ridiculous price a few months ago making these aircraft unaffordable.

Now that the price has dropped to less then half they may be 'back in the game' so to speak, for a carrier that has yet to hedge fuel or is about to hedge at a very good price....

I'd like to see the total cost once check in, baggage, food, in flight entertainment, a comfy seat which can recline etc etc is added to the basic price. There's a lot of opportunity to get you on board with a cheapo ticket then screw you once your sitting there for 10hrs. Its not a short hop like in euro land.

LB85
2nd Nov 2008, 14:20
Where does this £578 return that the News of the World quotes from? I've seen flights to JFK/EWR with BA for far less than that!

daz211
2nd Nov 2008, 14:52
People who live north of London need this to happen.

What makes transatlantic carriers think that people like flying from
LHR and LGW.

Have you ever tried to drive to eather around the M25.

STN is a much easier place to get to if you live north of London and
East Anglia has a massive catchment area for transatlantic flights.

I wonder how many people flying to the USA from LHR or LGW on a given day would have driven down the M11 passing STN or down the A12.

Yes there is the downside to STN and the lack of Interlined connections
but If I was flying US-UK-EU I would rather collect my bag using point to point flights as it is proven to more than half the chance of you baggage going missing.

If this Airline takes off, arrival and departure times could work well with
passengers for want of a better word connecting off Ryanair and Easyjet flights.

A route that would be a winner would be STN-LAS the only direct flight from LON is with Virgin and the price is way high.

When I went to LAS I flew LGW-YYZ/BUF-LAS with Southwest and there were over 10 people on the LAS flight from the UK.

Many people from the UK get a flight to the US say NewYork then transfer
to lowcost airlines such as Southwest and JetBlue to destinations all over the US so why not the other way for Americans flying to europe.

BALLSOUT
2nd Nov 2008, 15:19
The way I see it there is a fair chance that they could in fact be looking at some trans atlantic flights now.
The new FTL's that take effect soon seem to have taken long haul into account.
I would say If it were to happen, it could kick off with 737-800's with 150 seats. This would give plenty of room for the pax, and max range.
It would cost very little to try, if it works they can order bigger airframes. If it doesn't, they just reconfigure them to 189 pax and pull them back into european work.

daz211
2nd Nov 2008, 15:44
Ryanair could test the water before bigger airframes are sought
for the NEW Airline, however the Business class section with beds
and showers would'nt work on a 738.

Might just be a coincidence but the Ryanair route map does show the USA.

I do know that MOL is very fond of 757's maybe afew more of them about.

llondel
2nd Nov 2008, 15:51
If MOL got hold of an A380 he wouldn't be equipping it with a mere 550 seats, he'd be going for the full 800+. Cram them in!

daz211
2nd Nov 2008, 16:37
I have never had a problem with legroom on FR :=.
however MYT to YYZ was awful :eek: (A330)

It wont be Ryanair anyway, it will be MOL and I am sure that the seat
pitch will be thought about after all they will be trying hard to pinch
PAX from BA and VS.

BALLSOUT
2nd Nov 2008, 17:57
I don't believe the line that long haul will be a new company run by M'ol.
He won't be leaving FR any time soon, and why would he want to risk starting again when he already has all he could ever want.
I know this was put about by him but I think this line is just a smoke screen.
Apart from this, the credit crunch would make things more dificult to start from scratch these days. 737's i think, backed by FR's cash!

General_Kirby
2nd Nov 2008, 18:15
I hope this works out. There is no reason why it wouldnt work. The amount of passengers that they could tap into coming through STN that could then get connection to USA is huge. Good points brought up about the lack of airframes but Im sure MOL has a plan. Love or hate him he runs an excellent business. And I dont know why people slag Ryanair off who have never flown with them. I've been all round Europe thanks to them, I use them regularly domestically as they are quicker and more punctual and reliable than our useless useless overpriced rail network, and most times for a fiver or so, in total. Good luck Ryanair!

daz211
2nd Nov 2008, 18:24
Cathay Pacific are trying to shed 5 x B777 !

Nocti
2nd Nov 2008, 18:30
When MOL mouths off you have to consider what is he really looking for.



Boeing workers back - lots of unwanted airplanes on the way to Micko, soon. He still has several parked up whilst publicly saying the delay in opening the EDi base is due to lack of aircraft!!! Mmm - one wonders.

He's still trying to convert orders for 737s into long haul aircraft - at least there is a demand for them, unlike the 737 market which is flooded with the outfits going under recently.

He's facing one hell of a crisis with so many orders due for delivery over the next 18 months with an economic recession in Europe imminent. His options for sale /lease or disposal of these excess aircraft are diminishing rapidly, and with such a highly geared balance sheet it won't be long before they do serious damage to profits. Unlike most airlines, he has no opt out clauses in the near future.

EI-BUD
2nd Nov 2008, 18:36
MOL whether he gets into Transatlantic flying or not, will put a big story and lots of spin into the mix to put the wind up on the big airlines and also to dampen investor confidence on the airlines who rely on long haul flying.

Apart from that he will want to inflict more pain on Aer Lingus by going into the the Ireland/US market.

I would doubt that an A380 or a 747 would be used, I couldnt see that anything other than a twin engined jet would be used, perhaps 777?

Apart from that despite the order books being full for the 787, are there any signs that there will be cancellations in the current climate?

EI-BUD

toledoashley
2nd Nov 2008, 18:36
There could be some Long Haul aircraft on the market from AZ. CX and SQ are shedding some 772's, BA are slowly disposing aircraft as well.

BALLSOUT
2nd Nov 2008, 20:22
He won't want any second hand cast offs. I hink he will start with 800's
Once things look like they are working, change some 800 orders for 900er's. Then when things are realy working he may look for a good deal on "new" larger airframes.

daz211
2nd Nov 2008, 20:37
We will just have to wait until tomorrow I guess :rolleyes:.

I hope the announcement is more than "soon we hope" or "we plan to"

I will be very happy if we hear routes and dates :}.

I cant see it happening before the end of 2009 :ugh:.

OliWW
2nd Nov 2008, 21:06
They might consider the B747.8, capable of holding 469 in 3 classes, probably around 550 in 2 class... would that be enough for Ryanair, or would they want double that?

757_Driver
2nd Nov 2008, 21:33
can't see this working at all, or more likely it's just more spin from MOL to try and disguise the fact that his balance sheet is far from healthy and in reality his company is in big big trouble.
An earlier post mentioned 'connections'. FR don't do 'connections' they have flights coming into the same airport yes, but they don't connect - that implies baggage checked through, compensation for flights missed by delays etc etc - FR ain't gonna do that anytime soon. sure you could fly from loads of places to STN, then STN to whearever but if you miss teh flight - even due to FR delays then you are out of pocket and are stranded. Can't see many business class pax going for that one.
Also business class which "will be very expensive" according to MOL is all about service - its not just a big seat, and FR don't do service. MOL treats his customers like ****, and says so. Can't see anyone stumping up "very expensive" for a flight to new york, just to be treated like **** and left exposed when the flight is delayed, and without those business class pax the 8 pound seat ain't gonna happen.

MOLWillie
3rd Nov 2008, 05:06
With the new Ryan loco heading across the bigger pond and Lufthansa on LHR's doorstep, BA are going to start whining!
Let that competition fly.

lplsprog
3rd Nov 2008, 07:17
MOL states on TV this morning Ryanair will double in size and pilots only have a secure future with them!! Five new airline collapses forcast but nothing about drop in profits or loss expected next term.:hmm:

Min Drag
3rd Nov 2008, 07:20
47% drop in profits just announced on GMTV

OliWW
3rd Nov 2008, 09:50
However they have had more passengers than ever before, they were up.

freightdoggy dog
3rd Nov 2008, 11:26
More punters double 'em to 100 million ...thats alright then...dont worry about the yeild chase the volume, isnt that what all those clever bankers were doing OliWW ?

Cheap fares, crap service, sexy custard cream chuckers..its the future.

I think the Md's of those so called "crappy competitors" are having a wry smile at his 47% drop in profits this morning......... and as for the pilots whose futures are safe on their unpaid leave, they must be laughing all the way into their cornflakes. let them eat cake

Hobby Flyer
3rd Nov 2008, 13:06
Nice to see an Irish company doing well in the current circumstances. Profits of €215 Million for the first half of 2008 are not to be sneezed at. Fair play to Ryanair for cheering up the ISEQ today a little.

The way a lot of foreign commentators and media are talking you would think they had made a huge loss.

Ametyst2
3rd Nov 2008, 14:12
Well a 47% drop in profit, is better than some of ryanair's competitors who have seen a similar percentage rise in LOSSES!

sky9
3rd Nov 2008, 14:41
Ryanair used to publish their accounts on the internet, they now only produce a news release with no record of sale and leasebacks so the accounts are getting increasingly opaque
It did however include Half Year September 2008, excludes exceptional costs of i) Accelerated Depreciation of €25.7m on 15 aircraft to be disposed in financial years 2008/09 and 2009/10 and, ii) a €93.6m write down of our stake in Aer Lingus.

pamann
3rd Nov 2008, 14:44
So was the announcement of transatlantic services today just pie in the sky??? :rolleyes:

flyzen
3rd Nov 2008, 16:39
A good smoked windsreen for the today half year results announcement !

Seems only being the creation/registration of a future compagny for may be flights in 12/18 months

eu01
3rd Nov 2008, 18:24
Well a 47% drop in profit, is better than some of ryanair's competitors who have seen a similar percentage rise in LOSSES!These results might be not really that bad (as we could adjust the influence of unfortunate hedging and not-hedging), but something else is distressing me more. The future strategies are going to remain the same, here we go again:

"We will continue to respond with lower fares and aggressive price promotions to keep Europe flying and to maintain our market leading load factors.

"Although we have limited visibility, we now believe that average fares in the second half will fall by between 15pc and 20pc, leading to losses in the 3rd and 4th quarters".

MOL continues to consider solely low costs and low prices as the single possible marketing tool (flavouring them with some wrangles and theatrical gestures of his own), as if nothing but these cheap fares were a viable measure of success. It's a good tool, but it cannot remain the only method to build upon all the future development of any enterprise. The guy is in some way "locked" into such style of thinking and I feel sorry for him, it just looks like he simply could not get over it. I can see no reason for him to remain so puristic in using this one weapon only, neglecting everything else. Want to keep prices low? Do it across your website, but use other sales channels as well. Start getting more pax from the legacy airlines, from amongst people who do not necessary search just for the cheapest fares. Sell them much higher priced flights via Amadeus or anything else. There are thousands of potential customers that could use some routes if they knew about their very existence and found them useful but do not have time to visit ryanair.com. Improve your general image and brand, be more friendly, it pays. Reorganize your schedules a bit and introduce some (why not pricey) connecting flights, sell other products - like more expensive but flexible group tickets. Facilitate the day trips by improving same day returns, do something different to this old one-sided policy. Think broader, use the potential you already have, ugh!

looot
3rd Nov 2008, 20:49
they don't know too much about marketing. Advertising in black and white in some newspapers and the stunts of MOL is not good enough to attract another type of pax's only those, who pay actually 1 cent for the ticket, traveling only with hand luggage and didn't buy anything on board. Most of the people are smart, and many of them getting smarter not to check in any bags, avoid the inflight menu and not buying duty free on board. They can carry hundreds of millions of people every year, but the company won't make more money. The pax buy food at the airport (bottle of water outside UK and IRE is only 80 euro cent comparing the 3 euros on board, sandwiches the same story: 3 euros at the airport, on board 6 euros), so after they board the aircraft they start to unpack their food, water etc. There are many almost fully booked flights that the crew sells drinks and food only for 20 euro. Would love to see some changes.

eu01
4th Nov 2008, 18:56
Earlier in this thread I wrote about the new low-cost airport to be built near Budapest (Szekesfehervar). There are more capital cities in CE Europe to compete for the low-cost flights. While the opening date of Modlin airport near Warsaw has slipped several times and the future of the object is still uncertain, an existing Vodochody airport, belonging to a small aircraft factory near Prague, wants to become a budget flyers' paradise by 2011.The management of a small airport in Vodochody outside Prague is in talks with several budget airlines it would like to lure from Prague Airport in the future. Aktuálně.cz has found out these include Ryanair, EasyJet and Wizz Air. "I can confirm that we have talked to the representatives of these companies. The airport is not yet ready for regular flights and hence no contracts have been signed for now," said Martin Kačur, the airport's director.

In a privatisation two years ago, Czech-Slovak investment group Penta bought small aircraft manufacturer Aero Vodochody, including its testing runway. Penta is now expanding the facility into an international airport for low-cost, charter and private flights.

Industry insiders say that Vodochody has a realistic chance to attract budget carriers currently serving Prague Airport because it could offer them much lower landing and airport fees.

"By the end of the year, at the latest, we want to submit an EIA study on the project's environmental impact," said Kačur. He added the airport should be ready to receive its first regular flights in 2011.
From: aktualne.cz (http://aktualne.centrum.cz/czechnews/clanek.phtml?id=620951)

Let's see some details (http://www.lkvo.cz/english/details/) (at present) RWY 10/28 tora=2500m, toda=2560m, lda=2500m, asda=2500m. Not bad.

airbourne
5th Nov 2008, 11:29
What is the world availabliity on the 747-400? What is the max seating you can have?

Sorry ive no idea how to post a pic, so heres the link:

Ryanair using 747's recent advertisement seen in the Canaries. - boards.ie (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055411383)

eu01
5th Nov 2008, 12:30
You mean this one?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/changi/ryanair747.jpg

ICING AOA
6th Nov 2008, 10:00
I heard Ryanair is to Open 3 new routes out of bastia (corsica). Beauvais- Bastia; Grenoble-Bastia; Marseille-Bastia. Is it becuase easyJet has just announced Lyon-Bastia and CDG- Bastia?

Charlie Roy
6th Nov 2008, 12:03
Routes from Bastia to Marseille, Grenoble and Beauvais would mean a Marseille based aircraft.

Possibly something like:
MTWTF-S MRS - BIA - BVA - BIA - MRS
-----S- MRS - BIA - GNB - BIA - MRS

GnRdL
6th Nov 2008, 12:05
Where did you read/hear these about Corsica-Bastia?

FR-
6th Nov 2008, 12:53
Seems odd that Ryanair will do a 'W', just doesn't fit into ryanair operations. Maybe a hint of a new base at BVA.

MrHorgy
6th Nov 2008, 14:59
We do W's already from STN, STN-TMP-RIX-TMP-STN.

Bastia is Corsica isn't it? THought that was one of our new bases?

Horgy

frfly
6th Nov 2008, 15:58
all routes from bva that arent from bases are w's, treviso etc

Ametyst2
6th Nov 2008, 18:14
Ryanair used to operate Liverpool - Torp - Newcastle - Torp - Liverpool

BALLSOUT
6th Nov 2008, 18:46
Daily service, PIK-BVA-OPO-BVA-PIK then PIK-BVA-TSF-BVA-PIK.
No Doubt there are plenty more like these.
There will probably be a BVA base next year, after the cat 3 ILS has been installed.

anna_list
6th Nov 2008, 19:07
Hi,

Just in case anyone is interested, here's a list of the current 'W' routes. Corrections and additions welcome:

RIX - TMP (operated by a STN aircraft)
BVA - TSF (operated by a PIK aircraft)
BVA - OPO (operated by a PIK aircraft)
TSF - MLA (operated by a HHN aircraft)
BRI - MLA (operated by a HHN aircraft)
GSE - KLU (operated by a STN aircraft)

And some old ones:
BHX - MJV (back in 2003/4 flown by a DUB aircraft)
EMA - MJV (back in 2004/5 flown by a DUB aircraft)
LBC - PSA (before PSA became a base, flown by variously by STN and HHN aircraft)
LGW - NOC (flown by DUB and STN aircraft)
NCL - TRF (flown by LPL and HHN aircraft)
BOH - PIK (flown by a HHN aircraft when the route first opened in 2003)
BOH - GRO (flown by a DUB aircraft before GRO became a base in 2004)
BOH - NTE (operated by a MAD aircraft last year)
GSE - SZG (operated by a STN aircraft)

eu01
6th Nov 2008, 20:23
Very few routes indeed. I don't really know why FR does not seem to like W-patterns, preferring to have small bases all around (in some cases too much of them, I'd say) and flying two-ways only. While the W-patterns are not bad at all, even better could be a "delta"/triangle flight pattern. Why delta? The aircraft from the base A (anything) goes to non-base destination X (like BVA) and then to Y (like Venice) and thereafter returns directly to the base. Flying these triangle patterns does create much more variations. For example A-X-Y-A in the morning and A-Y-X-A in the evening on even weekdays and in reverse mode (A-Y-X-A mornings, A-X-Y-A evenings) on odd weekdays. Try to analyze a bit, this theoretical model gives numerous day-trip possibilities where W-patterns or simple return flights do not have this flexibility.

Charlie Roy
6th Nov 2008, 20:39
Triangles take less time too.

Example Charleroi based aircraft (W)
Charleroi - Valencia
Valencia - Basel
Basel - Valencia
Valencia - Charleroi
For the crew this would be a very long shift.

Example Charleroi based aircraft (2 triangles)
Charleroi - Valencia
Valencia - Basel
Basel - Charleroi

Charleroi - Basel
Basel - Valencia
Valencia - Charleroi
This would be a lot more schedulable regarding crew shifts and aircraft usage, and that is often the case with triangles as opposed to W's.

I suppose Ryanair are fully aware of this possiblity, but have expressly chosen to keep it simple. Drawing up schedules for each base / route twice a year is no easy task. Although I'd love to have a go off it :cool:

dublin_eire
6th Nov 2008, 20:53
MOL continues to consider solely low costs and low prices as the single possible marketing tool (flavouring them with some wrangles and theatrical gestures of his own), as if nothing but these cheap fares were a viable measure of success. It's a good tool, but it cannot remain the only method to build upon all the future development of any enterprise. The guy is in some way "locked" into such style of thinking and I feel sorry for him, it just looks like he simply could not get over it. I can see no reason for him to remain so puristic in using this one weapon only, neglecting everything else. Want to keep prices low? Do it across your website, but use other sales channels as well. Start getting more pax from the legacy airlines, from amongst people who do not necessary search just for the cheapest fares. Sell them much higher priced flights via Amadeus or anything else. There are thousands of potential customers that could use some routes if they knew about their very existence and found them useful but do not have time to visit ryanair.com. Improve your general image and brand, be more friendly, it pays. Reorganize your schedules a bit and introduce some (why not pricey) connecting flights, sell other products - like more expensive but flexible group tickets. Facilitate the day trips by improving same day returns, do something different to this old one-sided policy. Think broader, use the potential you already have, ugh!

Total jibberish if you ask me..... MOL keeps fares as low as possible and keeps that impression in our minds. It's a great formula. Look on the highstreet; the same formula works. Pennys/Primark vs Marks & Sparks.... Who does larger business? The 'no frills' option of course. But there will always be the small few who want the service you speak of and that comes at a price. The reason Ryanair are not accepting outside website sales is that its own website contains links that generate significant income. Your plans sounds like it would make HR's hair fall out in a day with staffing costs in implementing it all. I think the service is fine as is. Leave well alone and admire the machine!

eu01
6th Nov 2008, 21:31
I think the service is fine as is. Leave well alone and admire the machine!I'm pretty sure the service will stay as it is. No signs of change anyway. Things to admire? Truly low costs, the effectiveness and a decent reliability, yes. But the expansion based on this too-simple model has its limitations. I am just saying some symptoms of these limits are already visible, that's why I see also the need for changes. Admire the machine? To some extent, I still admire. I just hope we both can admire it showing as much optimism as you are showing today... two or three years from now.

Skipness One Echo
6th Nov 2008, 22:12
So was the announcement of transatlantic services today just pie in the sky???

Porky pies.....

F-GSEX
6th Nov 2008, 22:22
It is impossible for Ryanair to open MRS-BIA as all routes between MRS and Corsica are under PSO regulation.
But... if Ryanair want to operate to Corsica from BVA or GNB, no problem... except for the capacity that has to be found somewhere else...

This scenario is possible with a MRS based aircraft :
MRS-BVA-BIA-BVA-MRS

If they want to operate a GNB-Corsica flight they will have to get the capacity from STN or DUB (STN/DUB-GNB-BIA-GNB-STN/DUB).
Or....... they have to open a base in GNB.

FR-
7th Nov 2008, 06:27
Alot of crew are talking about, DUB have put in an order for 50 777s

StbdD
7th Nov 2008, 12:35
The Boeing Company (http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm)

There are rumours, and then there are .....

virginblue
7th Nov 2008, 19:37
FRAPORT, part-owner of HHN, has announced continuing losses for HHN today and said it would seek to triple airport charges in order to contain losses. It also did not rule out disposing of its stake in HHN if the airport continues to loose money.

Looks like just another battleground for MOL.....

goldeneye
8th Nov 2008, 10:25
Cant really see Ryanair managing to pull of transatlantic flights, Its one thing to operate accross europe but another to operate long haul on cheap fares.
Look at the casualty over the past 20 odd years, Zoom, Oasis, Laker (twice) etc.

I dont mind FR for short haul, but ill stick to CO, DL, VS and the likes for my long-haul.

Seat62K
8th Nov 2008, 10:58
The main factor which would prevent Ryanair offering more than a handful of really cheap tickets on any given flight is the fact that legacy carriers are only able to sell similarly-priced tickets because of the revenue they get from "premium" passengers on the same flights. These premium passengers are, in effect, subsidising those "at the back". I think Ryanair knows this - hence the talk about it, too, offering a Business Class product. Problem is, as others have noted, Ryanair would have some difficulty attracting "premium" passengers. It's not just the airline's image in the eyes of so many (undeserved to a great extent, in my view), but premium passengers typically demand a frequent flyer programme (with the opportunity to redeem miles for flights to attractive destinations), lounges and so on. Making these changes would radically alter the model which Ryanair has been using up to this point. Perhaps this is why any such operation would need a new airline.

daz211
8th Nov 2008, 18:27
It will be a new Airline, It Is not going to be Ryanair.

eu01
10th Nov 2008, 07:53
Ciampino Airport has been closed after the Ryanair plane overrun(?) the rwy this morning. None of the 166 pax were injured. It was probably the flight from HHN, some damage to the aircraft reported.

EDIT: Probably the the engine fire(?). Reports just coming.

Seat62K
10th Nov 2008, 08:24
Ryanair website refers to multiple bird strikes to both engines.

Seat62K
10th Nov 2008, 09:55
Update now available on Ryanair website.

Seat62K
10th Nov 2008, 10:10
The results of BBC1's Watchdog airline poll (the one started during the week its presenter claimed that tickets could not be bought at prices advertised by Ryanair; how come I am able to?) will be broadcast at 7.30 tonight. It will be interesting to see if their analysis of the data is in depth - e.g., whether there are any significant differences between frequent and infrequent fliers' answers (one of the questions being how many times have you flown in the last year).

Charlie Roy
11th Nov 2008, 14:37
Alicante 2 x daily
Gerona 1 x daily

adam12345
11th Nov 2008, 15:53
Flights for the rest of Summer 2009 are starting to be uploded!

OltonPete
11th Nov 2008, 17:02
Following on from adam12345

FUE is bookable again from bhx 10-01-09 - 31-01-09 three weekly and from July onwards but just twice weekly.

I assume that this might alter when the full upload has taken place.

I trust that things are sorted or part-sorted with FUE airport.


Pete

eu01
11th Nov 2008, 18:25
Oil prices hit a 20-month low Tuesday as Wall Street offered yet more evidence that consumers have gone into hiding.

[The crude] now costs 60 percent less per barrel than it did in mid-July.
Light, sweet crude for December delivery fell more than 5 percent, or $3.25, to $59.16 a barrel on the New York Mercantile Exchange. In earlier electronic trading, crude fell to $58.32, it's lowest point since March 2007.

Oil prices fell two days ahead of a report from the International Energy Agency, which some analysts expect will cut its 2009 oil demand forecast for the third consecutive month.Well, looks like MOL got it damn right, my respect! The timing of his own strategy has been unfortunate in 2008, but now... are the fuel deliveries hedged already? The outlook for a possible expansion is not bad any more.

MAN777
11th Nov 2008, 21:29
When an airline hedges fuel are they committed to continue paying the hedged cost even if the cost declines on the open market ??

mmeteesside
11th Nov 2008, 21:40
Surely you don't use the fuel you've hedged for and buy at 'todays price' ?

davidjohnson6
11th Nov 2008, 22:02
Undoing a fuel hedge depends on whether the airline has entered into futures (aka forward) or options.

With a future / forward, the airline commits to buying a certain amount of fuel, at a fixed price on a fixed date. To get out of this contract costs the same as the difference between the current market price and the agreed price - meaning that therer is no cost advantage in trying to undo the deal.
If last year you bought a 1-year future with a price of $80 per barrel, and the price 1 year later was $140, you have made $60 of profit. If instead the price has fallen to $65 1 year later, you've lost $15

Futures are simple, but there is a catch. Since they are listed on an exchange, if the price moves adversely for the airline, the airline is requires to deposit cash to the value of their cumulative losses. (They can take the money out again if the price moves favourably). When oil prices are volatile, this can hoover up cash very quickly, so may not be available to airlines that are financially weak or in some sort of bankruptcy proceedings.

Conversely, an option (technically a call option) is what it says - it gives the airline the right but not the obligation to buy a fixed amount of fuel at a fixed price on a fixed date. Come the originally agreed fixed date, the airline can choose whether to buy the fuel at the previously agreed price, or simply let the option lapse unused and just buy fuel at the prevailing market price.
Of course, this option is not free - you pay a premium for it, just like you do for car insurance. The maths is non-trivial, but one can easily work out an exact fair price. The price of the option depends on the volatility of oil prices - high volatility = high premium, low volatility = low premium

As an example, if current price = $60, option price in 1 year = $80, then a call option premium might cost about $7

There are all sorts of other ways an airline can hedge its fuel price - for example it might have set up a collar - whereby it agreed to pay no less than $80 but no more than $120. The more complex the deal, the more opportunity for a bank to charge a bigger fee.

Example:
Suppose 1 year ago you decided to hedge 1 year ahead.

1) If you had bought a future with a contract price of $110 per barrel, and the current price is $140, you have made $30 profit
2) If you had bought a future with a contract price of $110 per barrel, and the current price is $60, you have made a $50 loss
3) If you had bought an option with a contract price of $110 per barrel, and the current price is $140, you have made $30 profit less the value of the option premium
4) If you had bought an option with a contract price of $110 per barrel, and the current price is $60, you let the option lapse unused and lose just the value of the option premium.

Msg me if you want more info on this

frelli
11th Nov 2008, 23:15
News - 2008-11-11 Ryanair (http://www.theairdb.com/news/2008-11-11-ryanair.html)

Steviec9
12th Nov 2008, 19:26
Interestingly, Ryanair seems to have moved from the older spur at Gatwick (normally Gates 4,5 etc. - known to us regular travellers as 'Brighton' because that's the walk from the lounge feels like) to Gates 12-14 on the main pier. Almost feel like a normal human being now - fancy getting to use a travelator when on a Ryanair flight! Presume stands in the main area have been freed up by the demise of XL etc.

Seat62K
14th Nov 2008, 10:46
Although I prefer Ryanair to easyJet, the ridiculously high fares for summer flights on the routes I use (compared with the fares for easyJet flights released recently) mean that Ryanair has lost my business.
No doubt, these Ryanair fares will decline in future but I couldn't take the risk of waiting as I needed to be certain of travelling on certain days.
Ryanair's loss, easyJet's gain....
(Does anyone know the logic of pitching fares so high only to reduce them later? Is Ryanair "testing the market" to see who will "bite"...?)

heidelberg
14th Nov 2008, 11:37
Seat62K makes an interesting point.

6 weeks ago I booked 3 seats with RYR from DUB to AGP.
Departing 17 Dec and returning 29 Dec.
To-day RYR are offering the seats 95 Euro per PAX cheaper!!!
I.E. 30 Euro return compared to 125 Euro per pax.
And I thought considering the time of year 125 Euro return was good value.

Why are they down to 30 Euro return now. (Incidentally prices include all charges except credit card).

I also note on the day we return - 29 Dec - RYR has two flights scheduled from AGP to DUB within 10 minutes of each other. Must be heavy loads from DUB to AGP?

FR-
14th Nov 2008, 12:26
Come on lets be fair I bet your are is still cheap to the like of high fares airlines. The ting with DUB is that FR have a monopoly which is something MOL ates so much. Also a few weeks a go i flew to EMA-AGP and it was cheaper to fly EZY (on staff travel) than FR on staff travel becuase I had used up my blue tickets.

New Routes I have been told EMA-Malta :)

freightdoggy dog
14th Nov 2008, 12:43
A very valid point Seat62K..

last year I flew BHX-OLB for £34 one way all in with RYR, This year they want £89 all in one way. Therefore EZY has just got my money at £29 one way from LGW..I'm easy at which airport I fly from as I work all over the UK and Italy...So what is going on...are EZY panicking to get the cashflow in or are RYR pushing up the price to then make an artificial 75% off sale later on ?

eu01
14th Nov 2008, 13:34
Although I prefer Ryanair to easyJet, the ridiculously high fares for summer flights on the routes I use (compared with the fares for easyJet flights released recently) mean that Ryanair has lost my business.
No doubt, these Ryanair fares will decline in future but I couldn't take the risk of waiting as I needed to be certain of travelling on certain days.
Ryanair's loss, easyJet's gain...
Maybe MOL wants you to gamble a bit;)? Or he just gives his old customers a chance to wait, use their experience and get the best fares?

But indeed, FR is somewhat unpredictable in many respects. Some people like gambling, other prefer more certainty instead.

Based
14th Nov 2008, 14:03
Seat62K, I think it's just that their yield management department is a lot more active than other airlines. Most of the others choose to have a fairly static pricing mechanism starting at a reasonably low price (but not without taxes & charges) and gradually rising as seats fill & the date approaches, obviously there are exceptions with various offers but as a general rule that's how they operate.

On the other hand Ryanair choose to offer very low 1c/€1/€10 fares. Even with a lower cost base than competitors clearly they need to supplement these with 1. ancillary revenues and 2. a wider variation of ticket price paid across all the passengers so that the average fare is still a profitable one!

They essentially have a U type fare structure, starting fairly high and ending back up at high levels as seats sell/the date approaches. Their logic seems to be that early planners will want to get their flights sorted and booked so therefore will be less price sensitive. They catch the bargain hunters in the middle and then balance it out again by hitting last-minute business & unplanned passengers with high fares which at times can be higher than competitors. A more risky approach overall I suppose but it seems to work and it definitely works for me!

eu01
14th Nov 2008, 17:14
Ryanair lodged today appeals against eight separate EU decisions to block its access to documents in the Commission’s ongoing State Aid investigations against tiny regional airports - Hamburg (Lübeck), Berlin-Schönefeld, Tampere, Alghero, Pau, Aarhus, Bratislava and Frankfurt (Hahn).

Ryanair's Jim Callaghan said:

“The Commission’s unlawful refusal to allow Ryanair to access documents in their investigation contravenes the principle of openness and transparency enshrined in the EU Treaty, and flies in the face of EU transparency legislation, which gives the public the right to access Commission documents. These unjustified refusals are damaging the travelling public, and deny Ryanair the ability to defend these ongoing State aid cases.

“The Commission fails to provide any justified reason for refusing access to these documents and is simply afraid to grant access to evidence of the Commission’s biased and flawed application of the EU State aid rules.

“It is no coincidence that nine of the ten State aid investigations at European airports launched by the Commission since July 2007 concern Ryanair and easyJet. It is part of the Commission’s policy aimed at undermining the competitors of ailing national airlines and there is no basis whatsoever for any of these bogus investigations which simply give Alitalia and other failing airlines some breathing space before the next ‘rescue’ plan can be rubber-stamped.

“Ryanair will continue to expose the Commission’s biased and flawed application of the State aid rules in favour of failed national carriers”.

Source: Ryanair

FR-
14th Nov 2008, 18:33
Jim will fix it :E

h&s
14th Nov 2008, 20:52
Seat62K, I think it's just that their yield management department is a lot more active than other airlines


what a rubbish lol
Ryanair yield management is the worst of the industry
Every clever airline knows at what price it should start according to previous years
But Ryanair doesn't have any clue of that because its systems are rubbish
NEVER book a Ryanair ticket 6 months before the date of the flight: NEVER!
If you want to travel during week days, the cheapest option is 1 month before the date of the flight (probably the only airline in the world in that case), and if you want to travel a week-end, it's usually 3 months before.

DAr19
14th Nov 2008, 21:26
h&s, Ryanair's flight prices are very very tactical. Yield analysts at Ryanair are VERY good at their jobs as is the marketing department. The constant fluctuation in Ryanair fares €1 one day €40 three days later and back to €5 the next week according to demand is brilliantly tactical.

FR-
15th Nov 2008, 06:53
Its all too easy for some people on here thinking he/she can run an airline better but the fact is that, Ryanair is one of the worlds biggest airlines, within a short space of time. h&s maybe you should write into Dublin head office. And yes the mid week tickets take longer to sell, unless your flying to somewhere like TFS.

heidelberg
15th Nov 2008, 08:18
RyanAir did not take on all of the Southwest model!!!

Taken from:
AIRLINE BIZ Blog | The Dallas Morning News (http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/)

Southwest employees picket at Love Field
3:30 PM Thu, Nov 13, 2008 | Permalink | Yahoo! Buzz
Terry Maxon E-mail News tips
Southwest Airlines ground workers picketed Thursday afternoon at the entrance of Dallas Love Field, where Cedar Springs meets Mockingbird Lane, in support of a better contract.

The employees, represented by Transport Workers Union Local 555, and the airline are hung up on compensation, primarily the size of pay raises. They've asked the National Mediation Board to assist in the talks, which began in January.

The employees, who are seeking pay increases that roughly match the increases in the cost of living, carried signs with messages that repeated that demand, including:

WE KEEP LUV IN THE AIR
COST OF LIVING IS ONLY FAIR
IS THIS REALLY SOUTHWEST AIRLINES?"
WHAT HAPPENED TO PUTTING EMPLOYEES FIRST?
DOING MY PART EVERY DAY - COST OF LIVING WITHOUT DELAY
Southwest Airlines has said it is confident that the two sides will be able to come to an agreement soon.
The NMB has picked mediator Gerry McGuckin to assist the talks.

davedog
15th Nov 2008, 18:04
Are the full Ryanair summer 09 schedules out for EMA? Last year they had two daily flights to Girona.

Regards

Davedog

owenkirk2005
15th Nov 2008, 19:51
however since easyjet now have a daily service to barcelona i think it will stay 1x daily

FR-
15th Nov 2008, 20:51
Actucally GRO was only twice a day on selected days, the full summer time table will not be out for several months yet. . .

Seat62K
17th Nov 2008, 06:24
Can anyone explain the following? Recently, leaving Madrid, passengers descended the stairs from the gate and boarded a bus, only to be transported a matter of yards to the aircraft. They could have walked to it in a fraction of the time.
I can't see Ryanair forking out for the unnecessary expense of this ridiculous coaching operation, so I assume that for some reason the airbridge was inoperative and AENA, the airport operator, has a rule which prohibits passengers walking on the tarmac to the aircraft.
P.S. I understand that Ryanair management reversed its decision to increase the charge for purchasing Priority Boarding at the gate area at Stansted (and elsewhere?) from £4 to £8 partly as a result of pressure from staff who have to sell it. (I assume, too, that these sales plummeted!)
Many thanks for the interesting comments on yield management.

FR-
17th Nov 2008, 06:47
The staff in STN who sell them got nothing for selling them. I think its the only base where staff are asked to go sell them at the gate.

daz211
17th Nov 2008, 12:42
Ryanair eyes 36 new jets to bring fleet on par with BA - Irish - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-eyes-36-new-jets-to-bring-fleet-on-par-with-ba-1520070.html)

Buster the Bear
17th Nov 2008, 18:00
Ryanair to launch Spain flights from Gatwick?-17 November, 2008 (http://www.travelmole.com/stories/1132960.php?mpnlog=1)

airhumberside
17th Nov 2008, 19:54
Think pprune beat travel mole to it ;) See top of the last page/bottom of the one before it for more on Gatwick. Travel mole does report a reduction of DUB by 1 Daily potentially

eu01
18th Nov 2008, 12:08
Sporadic System Error -18 November 2008 - Ryanair.com

There is a sporadic error message occurring when customers are booking flights or using the Manage My Booking section of our website. A error message is appearing which states 'Unable to Calculate Fees for the Requested Items'. Customers receiving this message should refresh the web page and resubmit their request.

We apologise for this problem which should be rectified shortly by our system provider.Sorry, but what sporadic system error are you talking about? "Sporadic" might be the functionality of Ryanair's website, as it only "sporadically" works the way it should. In fact, it didn't work in a decent way since the software has been "upgraded" many months ago. It cannot cope even with fare searching, it gives errors almost every time you want to deal with it. It's a complete failure, that's what it is. And the most serious error was Ryanair's decision to continue with it and the unreliable software provider. The booking system simply disperses the customers, resulting in loss of revenues and loss of the credibility, among else.

"The problem should be rectified". Well, better go to pub. Unlike you, they usually serve genuinely rectified product there.

davidjohnson6
18th Nov 2008, 12:12
I think sporadic error is just Ryanair-speak for 'The system won't let people make bookings at the moment'

allanmack
18th Nov 2008, 15:11
Had a small glitch today for about 30secs and then seemed to rectify itself in time for me to book at £20 return PIK - STN. Having said that something as crucial (and as expensive) as an airline website should have 'glitches'

el #
18th Nov 2008, 15:21
Very recently and for few days I used the Ryanair site to see fares on one or two routes of my interest, over quite a span of dates.

I can positively tell you that they have a very serious rate failure between frond-end and database. In IT world, that's a big no-no.

This is revealed when you 'browse' calendar with "prev/next day" and the fare sometime fails to show, but retry will bring it up. There can be a lot of reason for that, database overload, f*cked up some-stuff, etc.

Not sure what is the rationale is in some up managment to act like "oh yeah, something on our main sales vehicle is f*cked up, but that's OK".

But it's a big statement to make in face of the customer.

davidjohnson6
18th Nov 2008, 15:34
Who actually runs / maintains Ryanair's website ?
Is it done in-house or has it been outsourced to a 3rd party company ?

If it's in house, and systems fail, senior management can shout at IT and make all sorts of *credible* threatening noises about one's future career.

If it's been outsourced to another company, then senior management can shout at a 3rd party provider, but unless the outsourcing contract was drawn up by the most brilliant lawyer, the minions (e.g. DBAs, server teams, etc...) in the 3rd party IT firm don't get paid much, don't really care and may adopt a 'Talk to the hand' attitude.

One can argue that it's good business not to make it too easy for a customer to get a refund. It is absolutely not good business to make it difficult for a customer to purchase your product !

Tom the Tenor
18th Nov 2008, 15:38
Sort of similar experience last week. She Who Must Be Obeyed had to stay on in UK for some extra days last week due to illness so had to rebook for last weekend so we were captive customers for Ryanair with fares obviously on the right side for Ducksie's bottom line etc and by japers it took quite a few goes before the booking software was stable enough for me to finish the booking. It called for patience to say the least and it was not a cheap fare either!

Hope they can sort it out. Computers are very vexing yokes though so I do have some sympathy.

adam12345
19th Nov 2008, 09:58
Ryanair to Close Fuerteventura Routes From January ’09

UNLESS LOCAL TOURISM GROUP HONOURS AGREEMENT

Ryanair, Europe’s largest low fares airline, today (19th Nov) confirmed that it will close all of its routes to/from Fuerteventura from 31st January unless local tourism group AIE honors the commercial agreement it entered into with Ryanair to promote Fuerteventura as a tourist destination.
Since Ryanair began flying to Fuerteventura in 2006, annual passenger numbers have increased over one hundred fold from just 2,000 to over 250,000. However, because of the AIE’s breach of its agreement with Ryanair one of its Dublin flights to Fuerteventura was cancelled from 6th November. Ryanair has now confirmed that it will close its 9 international routes to/from Fuerteventura from 31st January unless the AIE honors its contractual commitments with Ryanair.

Ryanair will close all services to/from Fuerteventura including Birmingham, Bremen, Dublin, Dusseldorf (Weeze), East Midlands, Frankfurt, Liverpool, London and Shannon from 31st January if agreement is not reached on these contract breaches before 6th December.

Ryanair confirmed legal action against AIE and its individual members will continue for breach of agreement.

Speaking today, Ryanair’s Michael Cawley, said:

“Ryanair again calls on the AIE to honor its contractual agreement or lose Ryanair’s flights and traffic to/from Fuerteventura from 31st January 2009. Ryanair’s lowest fares and no fuel surcharge have delivered huge tourism revenues and over 250,000 annual passengers may now be lost to/from Fuerteventura. At a time when Spanish tourism numbers are falling Ryanair’s numbers continues to grow. However, the AIE continues to threaten the livelihoods of the local tourism industry by blatantly reneging on its contractual commitments.

Ryanair has served 30 days notice to the AIE to comply with its contractual agreements. If they refuse to do so then we will have no choice sadly but to end all Ryanair flights to Fuerteventura from 31st January”.

Is it goodbye Fuerteventura?

davidjohnson6
19th Nov 2008, 10:03
Toys, pram, throw.... AGAIN ! :*

Facelookbovvered
19th Nov 2008, 10:40
The worm will turn with airport companies, i doubt that without tourism/marketing support many of Ryanairs routes are profitable at their pricing level and for some of the routes people will only fly there if the price is so low that it would be rude not to.

Having said all that if Ryanair a have a contract and they have kept to their end of it, then the other party should pay up, it is only a matter of time before some where like EMA or BHX end with just one LoCo, probably EMA, the airport manager.....ess will look more than a bit daft if they have only Ryanair to provide their income, still it would make a nice shopping centre, with lots of parking.

I doubt Leeds airport will fall into the same honey trap with Ryanair

I have allways found the Irish to be lovely soft natured people with a good sense of humour, Ryanairs brashness may make financial sense, but it reflects badly on the Republic

eu01
19th Nov 2008, 12:12
Toys, pram, throw.... AGAIN !
Nevertheless, it looks like not only FR is throwing the toys away, it could be also thrown out of some places itself. The Spanish speakers can read here (http://www.ultimahora.es/ibiza/segunda-ib.dba?-1+1007+454548) why Ryanair might soon be expelled from PMI airport (slot suspensions and other bans). They say Ryanair is violating some agreements as well...

loveJet
19th Nov 2008, 14:13
Can I Assume This Is Delayed From Early 09 To July 09?

Can Someone Confirm This?

h&s
19th Nov 2008, 15:43
Yield analysts at Ryanair are VERY good at their jobs

Of course you don't know any of their analysts so how do you know???


The constant fluctuation in Ryanair fares €1 one day €40 three days later and back to €5 the next week according to demand is brilliantly tactical.

Brillant??? I rather think that this is rubbish. A good revenue management is based on an anticipative model and not a reactive one. Ryanair RM is 100% reactive, they don't have any algorythm of optimisation, taking them regularly I know well that they have a ratio of sold out flights etc etc

FR: does an ailrine only depends on RM??? Ryanair stengths are not the RM for sure. They started at the perfect time but don't forget that their success is mainly fbased on two factors: low salaries (especillay of the crews) and subsidies from the airport (that are huges as many airports only haver yanair to continue to be alive)

davidjohnson6
19th Nov 2008, 20:26
Ryanair at the moment are running a near-free flights promotion. While not strictly free, flights cost 1 penny / 1 eurocent, and there is none of the extra taxes / charges / fees business.

I'm curious as to how such a promotion affects the stats that are shown in the quarterly results presentation.

If one has an Electron card, a rational consumer would make many bookings for flights in the full expectation that most of the bookings would lapse unused.
After all, if one is undecided about whether to make a trip, it's worth making the booking anyway if it costs 2 pence and takes 2 minutes. One can always add things like luggage entitlements via the website nearer the date of the trip if you actually decide to fly. I've made multiple flight bookings for the same date - I can thus decide on the day where to go based on weather forecast.

Ryanair are presumably happy because they get the publicity boost without having to actually fly many people anywhere or pay Govt taxes / airport charges.

Most other airlines won't sell below the cost of Govt tax, thus adding friction to pax reservations and avoiding mass unused bookings.

Ryanair's monthly pax figures are reported as number of seats purchased rather than pax flown on the basis that refunds are not given, thus the 1p promotions may cause overstatement of the number of pax and load factor. Further, the reported average fare will decrease because of all the 1p flights. Stats thus look great but are shown through rose-tinted glass.

Does anyone have any data to say how this kind of promotion with resultant non-utilised bookings affects quarterly statistics ?

MUFC_fan
19th Nov 2008, 20:37
However it still costs the airline if you fly or not.

If you fly they lose £9.99 before their staff even arrive to fly the plane. If you don't fly it still costs them to operate the flight.

They are very good at attracting passengers and to some of the airports they fly to they pretty much avoid airport fees which are quite a big chunck on their expenses.

However, when you fly with them you will want somewhere to stay. You will also want a car to go with it. You'll need to insure your trip. You will also want to take bags with you. You have to check these bags in. You want something to eat on the plane and you want something to buy from 'duty free.' You will also try your luck and buy a scratchcard.

There are a lot of things they can make money off of you from without you even realising. You have bought the flight for 1p - you'll probably end up spending a lot more than that.

Personally I always go to Barcelona to watch the football in January. It usually costs me 2p return. To be honest I have to pay 21 euros this time round to get from the Girona to Barcelona but apart from that my trip from home to the Barcelona will cost me 21 euros and 2 pence sterling (excluding petrol to the airport in England!):ok:

What makes Christmas? I think it's the Ryanair sales!:}

racedo
19th Nov 2008, 23:23
However, when you fly with them you will want somewhere to stay. You will also want a car to go with it. You'll need to insure your trip. You will also want to take bags with you. You have to check these bags in. You want something to eat on the plane and you want something to buy from 'duty free.' You will also try your luck and buy a scratchcard.

There are a lot of things they can make money off of you from without you even realising. You have bought the flight for 1p - you'll probably end up spending a lot more than that.

Good post.

As much as people bitch they ignore the obvious that Ryanair and other LCC are bringing in money to be spent locally on local services often in areas that central governments have ignored because a Capital city or major city is more important.

Economic growth and jobs come in many forms but putting €/£10 million of EU into an area to create jobs sounds great but it only works if they can be sustainable and provide a huge return.

Putting €/£ 500,000 into attracting airlines to underutilised and already paid for airports attracts people who because they have arrived cheaply are more willing to spend money locally on local services. The money stays in the economy locally and is much more effective than just another govt handout on mak work schemes because it is attracting new people into an area.

Charlie Roy
20th Nov 2008, 00:05
Bratislava
Reus
Trieste

Jippie
20th Nov 2008, 12:40
This new routes will be accomodated by a new(6th) based aircraft in Charleroi.
However they will close all routes from Maastricht due to the recently introduced ADP tax in Holland, that was such a good idea of the government:ugh:

eu01
20th Nov 2008, 12:53
Just three non-daily routes for a new aircraft... More to come?

The Maastricht case... does it have any implications for the Eindhoven's future?

Jippie
20th Nov 2008, 12:59
Who knows, more frequency's for existing routes ex-CRL, more new routes ex-CRL or routes that will be operated by CRL based aircraft instead of non-CRL based aircraft, so new routes can be opened from other bases. Time will tell.

As for Eindhoven, it is certainly interesting. If there's nothing in the media today I think I will give them a call about the situation, they are usually quite open. But I still have the feeling it doesn't look to bad. As it is located in a richer part of Holland so the yields are probably better then in Maastricht. Furthermore as the airport is located a bit further away from the border(and closer to rest of the country) then Maastricht which means there's probably a smaller amount of people that "leak" across the border.
And the GRO route should perform better now because the passengers have to go somewhere, and some of them will go to Eindhoven.

eidah
20th Nov 2008, 20:55
MUFC FAN

If the passenger does not fly I believe it does not cost the airline. The reason I believe I might be wrong but Ryanair only pay for the actual numbers of pax who travel. So if 10 people dont turn up then the company keep the money. If you dont travel you are entitled to claim the government tax back. However Ryanair get away with this by charging an admin fee. As I say I might be wrong however this what I believe the system to be.

MUFC_fan
20th Nov 2008, 21:00
Sorry, what I meant to say was it still costs the airline because they still have to pay for operating the flight (staff, ATC etc.)

They will save money on ADP and fuel but it would still cost them money as the flight would go with or without them.

h&s
20th Nov 2008, 21:30
Free seats is just another massive lie to shareholders

As everybody knows on this forum, ryanair publishes booked LF. But on their annual reports, they used to publish their Flown load factor (so only once a year!), for example here for FY2007, page 6:
http://www.ryanair.com/site/about/invest/docs/2007/20Fstatement07.pdf

In 2007, they had massive free free flights sales, even during the week-ends and during the summer, and of course it massively (but artifically) increased their load factor. "Curiously"; for the first time in their history, they haven't published, even in their annual statement, their flown load factor (which would be massively below last year one). I f you take the same report fy2008, page 6, I still don't find their flown load factor:
http://www.ryanair.com/site/about/invest/docs/2008/20F%202008.pdf


Another lie: according their financial reports, their new bases are all working well (lol), so why did they close VLC if it was working well???

davidjohnson6
20th Nov 2008, 22:25
MUFC - as Ryanair is scheduled rather than charter, the flight has to go ahead regardless - irrespective of the number of bookings (unless cancelled over a month in advance). Thus, the cost of crew, navigation, etc... are all sunk costs. No-show pax should impose very little additional cost on Ryanair compared to no booking at all.

h&s - I agree that the free seats business distorts the message given to shareholders in terms of load factor, number of pax and average fare. However, I'm curious as to how big a distortion this actually is.

If out of 50 million reported pax, there were only 10,000 no-show zero-fare bookings, most shareholders would consider this largely irrelevant. If on the other hand, the distortion is over 1 million no-show zero-fare bookings, the distortion in figures reported becomes more significant.

While the accounts need to be signed off by auditors as giving a true representation of the company's position, I suspect traffic figures do not legally need the same level of formal sign-off.

Does anyone happen to have data as to how relevant this distortion actually is ?

racedo
20th Nov 2008, 23:42
Another lie: according their financial reports, their new bases are all working well (lol), so why did they close VLC if it was working well???

Because Airport made a contract and failed to keep to it.

chrism20
21st Nov 2008, 00:10
If out of 50 million reported pax, there were only 10,000 no-show zero-fare bookings, most shareholders would consider this largely irrelevant. If on the other hand, the distortion is over 1 million no-show zero-fare bookings, the distortion in figures reported becomes more significant.



Since the free flights offer went online a few days ago I know of several people who have booked over 100 flights and will probably only fly around 20% of them. I would imagine that they are not the only people at this therefore the figure has the potential to be high - especially as they claim to be releasing '1 million' of them at times

ryanair1
21st Nov 2008, 05:02
second aircraft scheduled for 16th Feb 09

third aircraft schedule for 23rd Mar 09

Current 4 wkly routes will increase to daily
Current 3 weekly will increase to 4 weekly
no change other routes
new routes to be confirmed

virginblue
21st Nov 2008, 07:15
h&s - I agree that the free seats business distorts the message given to shareholders in terms of load factor, number of pax and average fare. However, I'm curious as to how big a distortion this actually is.

I seem to remember some calculations how much many Ryanair actually makes from - technically - not refunding taxes and fees to no-shows (in most sales, Ryanair does not assume "taxes and fees"). IIRC, it was estimated that the difference between seats sold and passengers flown is up to 10 per cent and much higher than the industry standard. So we are certainly not looking at peanuts.

One other aspect: The contracts with airports / local authorities seem to stipulate a minimum number of annual pax to earn the subsidy (or a certain part of it). So giving away seats to certain destinations actually earns Ryanair money if those passengers with free tickets push the annual pax figure for a destination over the magic threshold.

gate 22
21st Nov 2008, 09:38
There is a thread about BA changing it's name. Do you not think Ryanair should change its name. Isn't it named after the family that formed it over 20 years ago. Do you not think that an image make-over and name change would be a good idea. Maybe a change at the top as well.

davidjohnson6
21st Nov 2008, 10:03
Corporate rebranding is a high-cost and high-risk exercise.

Ryanair as a brand is recognised all round Europe and a good chunk of the affluent world. If one person is associated with Ryanair, it's MOL, rather than anyone in the Ryan family. Having Ryan in the corporate name probably has a neutral effect.

Potential reasons I can think of to change the name include:

1) The airline has multiple disastrous accidents with much loss of life in a short period of time
2) The airline decides to significantly reposition itself in the market - e.g. becoming much more upmarket

Why else would the company want to spend millions on this and lose the name recognition that all the advertising has bought so far ?

Skipness One Echo
21st Nov 2008, 11:21
There is a thread about BA changing it's name. Do you not think Ryanair should change its name. Isn't it named after the family that formed it over 20 years ago. Do you not think that an image make-over and name change would be a good idea. Maybe a change at the top as well.

What would this achieve aside from taking away a well known brand?
Coca Cola
Pepsi
Heinz
Long lived brands with continued success.
Virgin - well it's not new anymore, lets become "Whore" and see how that goes down in the market. And yeah, change the guy at the top because he's only made us who we are today.

Do some people in here ever think before posting? Ever?
Incidentally BA are not rebranding, despite what the jilted MAN boys may wish.

eu01
21st Nov 2008, 17:28
Today something from Poland. The country seems to be very enthusiastic about low-cost travelling (with Ryanair, presumably - look at the photo below ;)). Near Lublin they decided to demolish the entire settlement of newly-built private homes to make way for a new airport Lublin-Swidnik. Amazing, isn't it?http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/0/5973/z5973500X.jpg(images: gazeta.pl)

eu01
22nd Nov 2008, 06:47
From Italy. The mayor and the municipal government of Ciampino has pledged to submit a complaint to the courts concerning the FR incident last Nov. 10 and asked to participate in the investigation. The Municipality has also asked the Ministry of Transport to reduce the commercial flights immediately without waiting for the opening of a new airport.

The source: Il Tempo (http://iltempo.ilsole24ore.com/roma/2008/11/22/955040-incidente_aeroporto.shtml)

h&s
22nd Nov 2008, 11:35
No-show pax should impose very little additional cost on Ryanair compared to no booking at all.

In terms of pure cost, I agree. But I dissagree if you also meant that free seats no show does not count them money. True, Ryanair won't pay taxes, so it doesn't cost them charges, but it may costs them a lot of revenue i.e. the cost of selling a free seat whereas they were abble to sell it at x€. By experience (I took ryanair more than 100 times, but not anymore over the last year), I saw plenty of flights that was sold out 1 week before the date of the flight, and at the end, they were plenty of no shows especially of free seats buyers, so the compagny lost many revenues opportunities. This is why I am saying that their revenue management systems are rubbishs. RM is to sell at the right price based on expecting final LF. This is not what is doing Ryanair.

Free seats are non sense economically. Virginblue you're right. Ryanair contract airport deals are clear: xm PAX per year vs. x€ per passenger. So in addition to waste revenue opportunities, free seats also cost them money because in the majority of the cases, I guess (not 100% sure of that) airport taxes they will to pay by PAX to the airport > airport subsidies per PAX

At the end, the only argument in favor of free seats is to show descent load factors to shareholders and third parties, but these load factors are totally artificials.
Historically, flown LFs were 6pp below booked LF. I guess the extra difference due to free seats are of between 1.5 and 2pp which represents around 70.000 of extra no shows per month. But as they don't publish anymore their flown load factor in their financial report....

Free seats is, among others I already talk about (non sense new bases, rubbish revenue management systems and strategy, lower fares from network carriers, aer lingus non sense shares acquisition strategy, huge turnover of their employees, relations with airports, european commission investigations, focusing on the uk whereas easyJet is very well established and the uk market in recession, in response of ryanair attacks, easyJet attack on some Ryanair good routes (such as Milan Rome) etc) why their yield AND load factor are deteriorating in huge proportion, whereas easyJet ones for example are both increasing and in very better shape than ryanair.
easyJet business model looks like a lot more robust and resilient to the crisis than ryanair one, and it looks like their greek main shareholders is the only person not aware of that :}

@gate22: there is zero chance that ryanair changes its branding. Ryanair is a very well brand, good positioning and above all, they will never spend 1c to consultant for that

@racedo: I rather think that VLC base performances were disspointing so they asked for extra funds, refused by VLC. You could believe ryanair statement, but personnally, knowing very well Ryanair attitud, I prefer to believe VLC airport arguments.

jettesen
22nd Nov 2008, 13:50
Dont forget, that when you say lots of flights were sold out 1 week before the flight date, this is not necessarily true. The reason being that certain destinations are capped at 156 pax due to runway length eg Belfast city, inverness etc. Smaller airports are capped due to the size of the 738. So if you look at all their secondary airports they fly to , this can amount to a vast amount of seats lost due to capacity caps

FR-
22nd Nov 2008, 18:48
I think you will find INV can take more than 156. And for no shows, i actually had 65 no shows today on one flight.

flightlevel26
22nd Nov 2008, 20:12
H&S I totally disagree about your definition of the Revenue Management role. Therole of RM in any airline is to optimise revenue and LF according to demand and seasonality. It's all about asset utilisation.

Revenue Management doesn't mean "filling" every flight because sometimes this isnt possible. If you look at FR's promotions in detail you will notice that these are for off peak flights only (M-Thurs) and also large percentage of these promotions are run during the traditionally quieter winter season.

I admit that a no show will have a slight adverse affect on FR's LF results however on zero tax/fare promotions they will gain slightly from the debit/credit card fee. The only risk of offering zero fare tickets is incorrectly ofering these on flights that in ryanair's eyes are forecast to fill, where the seat could potentially be sold for a higher, more profitable break even fare.

The most important part is that being the astute company that Ryanair are they have probably factored into availability that 10% zero fare don't show therefore they overbook by 8% for example to mitigate the risk of flying light. A tricky task for any RM department but this is what the legacy carriers do well.

eu01
22nd Nov 2008, 20:20
for no shows, i actually had 65 no shows today on one flight.And that's the visible result of the continuous "free flights" policy. As I said before, there's much more to successful marketing than just the price. Regrettably, it became obvious that the impressive development of the airline to a major-size carrier we have seen so far is not sustainable any more. Not in the present form. The growth has been hampered by the lack of vision how to reshape the old model facing the market saturation in order to gain the versatility and attractiveness. That is essential in order to lure more customers during the economic slowdown. The necessity to make some changes of the strategy is becoming more and more apparent.

The only good thing in the present situation is the fuel price low enough not to lose money in spite of all. Hopefully it'll give some time to re-consider the old strategy and create a better product.

h&s
22nd Nov 2008, 21:31
I think ABZ and INV are capped at 176 PAX, BHD is limited as well

@flightlevel26: I won't go in a too theoric debate and honestly, I don't understand how you could dissagree with my basic definition of RM, but just when you say that Ryanair sell 10% of free seats and overbook by 8% (so at the end you agree with me that they just artificially increase their LF, everybody doing sale, but only ryanair doing free seats that increase a lot LFs and no shows), you just wrong as it is clearly writen on their website that Ryanair is a non overbooking airline...
Except if you want to tell us that Ryanair again lies to its passengers, shareholders etc... ;-)

If you consider BGYCIA of this week, 3 flights already sold out for monday, 2 for tuesday, 1 for wednesday, 2 for Thursday and 2 for friday (1 week in advance!).
Do you think they achieved the maximum revenue on these flights?
And I am quite sure they sold plenty of free seats on these flights, so yes, I still consider it costs them a lot of revenue opportunities.

EI-BUD
23rd Nov 2008, 08:03
I admit that a no show will have a slight adverse affect on FR's LF


Hi there flightlevel 26. This is an interesting comment, There was some debate a year or 2 ago as to the legitimacy of Ryanair's LF. Some argued that Ryanair when Ryanair announced say an LF of 90% this was based on passengers booked . Can you confirm is the load factor as quoted by Ryanair based on boardings or passengers booked on the flight?

EI-BUD

Cyrano
23rd Nov 2008, 11:25
Can you confirm is the load factor as quoted by Ryanair based on boardings or passengers booked on the flight?

Here's Ryanair's definition (from their May passenger numbers news release (http://www.ryanair.com/site/EN/news.php?yr=08&month=jun&story=pax-en-020608)):
["Passengers"]...represents the number of earned seats flown by Ryanair. Earned seats include seats that are flown whether or not the passenger turns up because once a flight has departed a no-show customer is not entitled to change flights or seek a refund.

So in other words, if 150 people book seats on a Ryanair flight and then not a single one shows up, Ryanair still counts 150 passengers and an 80% load factor.

loveJet
23rd Nov 2008, 11:47
Although that is the correct definition for 'passengers' i think you'll find that the definition for 'load factor' is some-what different, taking into account no-shows, giving an actual on-board (at the time of flight) stat. Although no-show rates are usually between 2 and 8% per flight - counting them in load factor analysis would certainly give a more optimistic view! But an airline's success must also be measured in being able to either reduce the no-show rate or over-come it by over-booking, else lost opportunity in ancillary revenue...

eu01
23rd Nov 2008, 12:12
The most frustrating fact is that there are millions of potential passengers to fill these empty seats, completely omitted by Ryanair. Most of them are using legacy or charter airlines or private cars and would love to save a bit, but are afraid of being too self-reliant while planning their trip and travelling - FR do not encourage them, do not care for them, do not bother to help (on a take it or leave it base), do not hail them. Others would be keen to travel and have a positive overall experience - but the point to point system doesn't give them a choice.

Flying to small airports brings about the need to supplement this point-to-point thing. If a family living in Smaland, Sweden or Tampere, Finland wants to go to Paris, will they choose Ryanair with its Dusseldorf Weeze or Frankfurt Hahn, respectively? No, they'll choose SAS, AY or AF to get them until the final destination, they'll spend the yearly travel budget on these tickets and overnights (while they could have travelled several times with low-costs), they will be "lost" for Ryanair. "Free flights" will not help.
.

Cyrano
23rd Nov 2008, 15:22
Although that is the correct definition for 'passengers' i think you'll find that the definition for 'load factor' is some-what different, taking into account no-shows, giving an actual on-board (at the time of flight) stat.

I'm not sure about that. If you follow the link I gave above, you'll see that Ryanair first defines "passengers" (i.e. as those booked rather than those actually flown), but then goes on to define "load factor" as "number of passengers as a proportion of the number of seats available for passengers". It would seem to me that this is therefore "earned load factor" rather than "flown load factor".

I also make this assertion based on the well-tested empirical principle that if there are two possible ways of presenting data (even if one involves redefining words), Ryanair will invariably choose the one which makes them look better. ;)

Incidentally, note the Ryanair definition of "load factor" - the denominator is "number of seats available for passengers" rather than "number of seats". That means that if the flight is capped at 156 seats out of 189 (e.g. due to short runway) and 156 tickets are sold, the load factor is reported as 100%. This may be true in a very narrow sense, but not in the general meaning of the term (which would consist of saying "we can't sell more than 80% of the seats due to performance constraints, so the load factor is effectively capped at 80%.") See "empirical principle" above... :cool: