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missterrible
30th Jul 2008, 18:00
I've got a funny feeling that in 12 months time, one or two airline CEO's will be telling their shareholders 'we had the right strategy to see off Ryanair but unfortunately we went bankrupt before we could prove it'.

Only one CEO talks about seeing anyone off.
Only one CEO talks down any other company.
Only one CEO gleefully predicts the demise of other companies.

2Planks
30th Jul 2008, 18:51
How about a comparison with another industry? Look at the supermarket trade and the 2 stores in the UK that are rapidly increasing turnover are: ALDI and LIDL - in the Grocery trade - the 2 LoCos. Brits will always want to go on holiday but if they can cut back on the cost by booking a cheap villa in Spain (of which there is a glut) and book cheap flights then they will. Personally I wouldn't want to be over exposed to Caribbean or similar long haul destinations.

Husky One
30th Jul 2008, 19:16
Firstly hedging (or lack thereof) plays a significant part in this market and lack of it could well render the very best of business models defunct. Secondly the british will always want their holidays but I very much doubt they will sacrifice their main annual expedition. Instead it will be the multiple weekend jollies to Spain that take the hit (not good for locos). Sounds like bad news all round to me. One thing that is becoming pretty sure though is that Ryanair suddenly don't seem to be as untouchable as O'leary would have you think. The city have also woken up at last to the BS.

Buster the Bear
30th Jul 2008, 19:27
If Ryanair are feeling the pressure, goodness only knows what is going on around other airline Board rooms globally.

As I posted in another thread, big H.Q. job cuts at easyJet today. How long before a Ryanair/easyJet merger and don't give me 'different business models' rubbish. Airlines are entering new territory with the global credit crisis and oil doubling in price over the last 12 months. Anything can happen and in the airline industry, the unthinkable might? who knows? One thing for sure, there will be casualties and the remaining airlines will re-trench back to the larger airports where the yields are more robust.

Wing Commander Fowler
30th Jul 2008, 19:52
Good point Buster - let's face it who on earth would have envisaged a BA/Iberia merger a year ago??? In Fact what on earth are BA thinking of?

Ametyst1
30th Jul 2008, 20:08
Not everybody flying Ryanair is going away on holiday or a weekend break. Some people visit friends and relatives which would give people quite a cheap break away (No hotel/or car hire) amd people who have second homes in France or Spain may visit them more rather than pay for extra long-haul holidays for instance

Silver Tongued Cavalier
30th Jul 2008, 20:59
Price elasticity of demand - READ THIS

Price elasticity of demand - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_elasticity_of_demand)

I reckon the price elasticity of demand for Ryanair seats is getting close now to being inelastic. There's so much Ryanair capacity (more coming!), lowering fares will just result in lower total revenue. Even though I know I can go Stansted to Gdansk for 5 quid, i still wont go because i dont need to.

Just because Brits might be opportunists and snap up a bargain Ryanair 5 Quid fare to France and a cheap Villa, doesn't mean the Airline or Villa owner won't still be burning through his cash pile!!! That is not a sound business plan.

Again, a 737s burn is the same regardless of number of empty/cheap seats. Its all about the aircraft yield!!! And how can Ryanair now increase theirs????

Just my thoughts......

virginblue
30th Jul 2008, 21:15
How about a comparison with another industry? Look at the supermarket trade and the 2 stores in the UK that are rapidly increasing turnover are: ALDI and LIDL - in the Grocery trade - the 2 LoCos.

Interesting comparison. I have read some analysis recently that the LIDL/ALDI model will run into difficulties in the long term because of the aging population. Going low cost mainly attracts a younger crowd, in whatever market you are. With an ever older population, more traditional business concepts (full service etc.) will become more attractive again as "silver agers" are willing to spend more and go for quality rather than price.

cesare.caldi
30th Jul 2008, 21:32
On Ryanair check-in online now appear new routes:

BLQ-GRO
BLQ-BHX
BLQ-CRL
BLQ-DUB
BLQ-HHN
BLQ-STN
BLQ-VLC

are the same flight now operated from FRL, so it's a change of airport moving all flight from FRL to BLQ

Ametyst1
30th Jul 2008, 22:12
Well, a lot of silver surfers use Ryanair. The younger set tend not to have second homes in France, Spain or Portugal. Ryanair carry more ABC1 category passengers than BA

F14
31st Jul 2008, 00:09
Seems alot on this forum who think the UK is the centre of the universe..

Ryanair is an Irish Company, who since the turn of the century have been very busy diversifying into Europe. I would say that Ryanair has the most languages of any airline in the world.

The UK is toast, people are already being told to go camping in the UK by the BBC. This doesn't mean Aviation in Europe is dead.

Facelookbovvered
31st Jul 2008, 07:46
With out the UK market it is toast

lexoncd
31st Jul 2008, 08:19
O'leary made the crucial mistake of not being upfront enough with the major financial guys. They don't like that as has been seen with others who have done the same in the past in other sectors.

He will go shortly when he can produce some good news to save face. The Company has done well under him and you can't deny his achievements but in the same way Stelios made way for a different culture so too has the time come for a new caring Ryanair and then the competition really should watch out.

Oils is hedged for September and Q3 at $129 and $124 respectively. Oil prices are in decline with the latest price now at $121 and falling from the highs of $145. So now they've hedged at a higher price than the spot. Assuming the falls continue then their competitirs will hedge again as I'm sure Ryanair will at similar levels. The last time Ryanair hedged was at $65. Much as we would all like to see oil prices fall I doubt they will go that low but assuming they settle around the $90 then the impact of fuel on Ryanair is far more significant that legacy carriers.

Ryanair have pushed the limits on credit card charges, baggage etc etc. You can only go so far before Joe Public has had enough and then the charges actually work against you.

The challenge of the Uk is an interesting one. They have 76 out of 90 aircraft based in the Uk so then need that market. The fall in the Euro and rising prices will affect UK lead demand for all carriers but on a positive note the fall in the value of sterling could make the Uk more attractive for overseas markets thereby cancelling out reductions in the Uk. It will of course vary route by route and the basis of the traffic.

pee
31st Jul 2008, 08:22
Sometimes I'm able to make use of my basic knowledge of Russian. Look what I've found today on telegraf.lv:
"Ситуация в аэропорту Rīga сейчас плачевна. И дело не в незапланированных рейсах, а в количестве работников
(...).
Так вот, 20 июля на весь аэропорт таких грузчиков было около десяти (!) плюс десять рамп-агентов. И это при 19 входящих и 12 вылетающих рейсах!
(...)
В итоге даже пилот авиакомпании Ryanair грузил самолет вместе с нашим рамп- агентом. Как он сказал — из жалости. Его рубашку можно было выжимать. От пота. Пилот реально подумал, что у нас аэропорт самообслуживания: прилетел — разгрузил — отвез багаж пассажирам — загрузил — улетел. Шесть тонн за полчаса — столько времени дается на разворот самолета Ryanair".
"The situation at the airport Rīga is now deplorable. The reason lies not in the unscheduled flights, it's in the number of workers.
(...)
So, on July 20 they had about ten (!) baggage handlers for the entire airport plus ten ramp agents. And that with 19 incoming and 12 departing flights!
(...)
As a result, even Ryanair pilot decided to help our ramp-agent and loaded the aircraft along with him. As he said - out of compassion. One could wring his shirt from sweat afterwards. The pilot might thought that we have a self-service airport: arriving - unloading - transfering the luggage to passengers - loading - departing. Six tons in half an hour - that much turn-around time gives Ryanair".

By no means should it be acceptable as a common practice, but my respect goes to the pilot for his spontaneous gesture on that day...

airhumberside
31st Jul 2008, 09:17
At least Forli has Windjet as a 2nd major airline to fall back on

VanBosh
31st Jul 2008, 10:12
According to Bloomberg 7 routes to move from FRL to Bologna...but...

Forli to become base in Mar 09 with 1 aircraft and 6 new routes...and..

Bologna to become base in 2010 with 2 aircraft(rising to 5)..

Strange...

pee
31st Jul 2008, 10:17
Okay, I'm backing off. Either my language abilities are too poor, or they are really planning to
retreat from Forli now, but
make there (in Forli) a new base as of March 2009
make a base in Bologna as well, but in 2010

Now Italian speakers, if it is not a misunderstanding; am I mad (or who is then)?

frfly
31st Jul 2008, 11:27
Officially announced. Bologna to become a base in June 2010, Forli in 2009. Forli to be domestic traffic. All current flights transferred to Bologna.

Very strange decision by FR, but they must know what they are doing!

pee
31st Jul 2008, 11:42
Yeah, it's official.
Ryanair, Europe’s No. 1 low fares airline today (31st July) announced that it will transfer seven routes from Forli to nearby Bologna from 27th October 2008 which will deliver 800,000 passengers to the airport annually.

In June 2010 Bologna will become Ryanair’s 30th European base with an initial investment of $140m in two aircraft, rising to five aircraft (a total investment of $350m), 25 routes, two million annual passengers, and 2,000 jobs by 2012.
The low fares airline also announced that it will open a base in Forli in March 2009 (the airline’s 29th), investing $70million in one aircraft which will deliver 400,000 passengers, to at least three and up to six new destinations and 400 local jobs.The only explanation I can comprehend (it's my suspicion at least):
The routes shifted from FRL to BLQ will be brand new routes (with brand new funding).
All FRL routes will be new ones (marketing required).
New bases require new support (both of them).
Now I understand, why FR will NEVER have any base in Finland.

MUFC_fan
31st Jul 2008, 11:48
I don't understand how the 7 routes can deliver 800,000 people per year? Even if every flight was full I can only get it to approx. 490,000.

05Prius
31st Jul 2008, 12:21
What is wrong with Ryanair's bookin engine?
It hasn't been working properly for weeks now. Surely a company like FR should be able to get a decent IT Team to sort it out in a few days / week max? It's ridiculous.

StygerTim
31st Jul 2008, 14:17
Spot on, Husky One !

It’s the PFP travel that’s built so much traffic for Ryanair and the other ultra-locos.

In the airline marketing business, PFP stands for Purely for Pleasure.

PFP travellers take a choice based on such low prices that visiting Prague, Perrpignan or Palma becomes an economic alternative to driving down to Margate at £50 per petrol fill, shopping in Lakeside, going out to the cinema and a pizza – or even filling your basket in Aldi.

And PFP is the most fickle and disloyal sector in air travel, besides the most unnecessary contributor to those contentious carbon emissions.

Build your airline on PFP, and it’s built on sand.

It’s not business travel. That will continue, although it’ll take a hit, like it did in the last recession.

It’s not VFR. Marriages, births, deaths, friendships and the rest will still happen. People will continue to Visit their Friends and Relations.

It’s not Holiday Leisure, which covers that annual investment in a family vacation or in exploration. People will work hard to retain that, although they might move down a notch.

It’s PFP, Purely for Pleasure. And it’s easy to do without your regular dose of PFP when the money's tight.

So, that’s the traffic that will disappear first as the recession bites into people’s discretionary incomes.

And that’s the traffic that keeps so many of MOL’s aircraft in the air.

When they evaporate, what’s he going to do to fill his aircraft ? Pay people to fly ?

What an interesting inscription on an airline’s gravestone.
“We relied too much on PFP”.

Code 100
31st Jul 2008, 14:43
I think FR are worried about the PFP sector. The reason I say this is that over the last couple of weeks I have never had so many 'Ryanair Special Autumn Break' etc. emails from them.

Is anyone else experiencing this?

I am seriously thinking as marking FR as spam. If they can't sort out their booking website, what faith can I have in their marketing?

Hope FR are ok in the long run - too many good staff AND customers.

Skipness One Echo
31st Jul 2008, 14:50
Ryanair are also locked into a massive expansion of aircraft when the market is stalling. Part of this plan is to sell the older B737-800s. This is fundamental to their game plan, remember that. It's all going horribly wrong and he has few friends left.

frfly
31st Jul 2008, 15:48
With all due respect I think it's unfair to say it's all going horribly wrong. It's just going to be a tough year, for all airlines. I think airlines like WW and LS as well as your tiny LCC's al around euorpe have more to worry about than FR. Just once again it's the most openly discussed because they are such a large airline. Let's remember, this airline carries the most international traffic in the world, I'm sure the people that run FR are not completely stupid and they'll come up with ways to combat the situation.

befree
31st Jul 2008, 16:52
A few years ago everything fell good for MOL. The timing of each hedge was spot on and the buying of planes on the cheap worked just fine. Now everything is going wrong. The trading standards are on his back which has ended the 1p flight. Airports are uping fees and the public have been to lubeck as much as they want. Ryanair cannot change its plans as the planes are on order. The small airstrips cannot give MOL any lower charges. In fact I suspect it could be the tiny airports that are going to go under next.

The Uk is very important to MOL as we are the biggest flyiers in Europe after the irish. It is going to be a bad 5 years at least.

eu01
31st Jul 2008, 17:48
It’s PFP, Purely for Pleasure. And that’s the traffic that keeps so many of MOL’s aircraft in the air.

When they evaporate, what’s he going to do to fill his aircraft ? Pay people to fly?
Agree, but Ryanair's worst enemy is not the (present) recession. Even more likely, passengers can evaporate due to other reasons.

MOL has created a very efficient, punctual, good working airline. Over a few years its development has been very impressive, no matter how controversial O'Leary's methods (and he himself) were. Unfortunately, the same methods that were so successful in the early period of "Storm and Stress", namely the lowest prices and... not so much else (for the pleasure) are not enough, not any more. This strategy should have already been changed by now - in order to keep filling the aircraft as it used to be before. Frfly, you said "I'm sure the people that run FR are not completely stupid". Of course they aren't. But they lack some subtleness, finesse that might be required right now, in the Phase Two: Keep your old customers, try to win new ones. To get them, FR don't have to discontinue these old good habits pertaining to lowering costs and improving the efficiency. Nevertheless, they have to explore other than "free flights" ways of marketing; they should improve the customer relations, try to enrich the present offer. This inability to switch to other policies and to develop the diverse ways of marketing, is the main reason to be concerned. Many of us who wish FR well, wait for a new vision of Ryanair, a consumer-centered (not just a deal-driven) airline. So far MOL is not giving us any indication of upcoming changes, being rather stubborn and stuck to old methods of just "lowering fees". In my eyes Ryanair plays down the real threats to its very existence, so far being unable to invent an effective solution.

PS. Fighting with the hopeless ryanair.com website is not any PFP activity too.

F14
31st Jul 2008, 18:56
Would appear Ryanair website is now off-line for English speakers.

Page only in Polish. Could be the most profitable, highly efficient airline on the planet. But punters unable to book, they will go else where. Ryanair stops becoming the "First-Stop Shop".

If punters with credit cards in hands can't even see whats available then the game is up! Shambles

Day_Dreamer
31st Jul 2008, 19:04
I have just logged into their site and have had no problems booking a flight in English.
Including taxes etc displayed on page one.

F14
31st Jul 2008, 19:11
Yes now back up, but is a note about system performance and slow running

Maude Charlee
31st Jul 2008, 20:47
Loving the whole retail comparison.

Anyone remember Gerald Ratner? Another gobby pratt who couldn't keep his gob shut and paid the price.

Cheap cr@p anyone? :}

your_not_serious
31st Jul 2008, 22:50
A Spanish media source,Canarias7,is reporting tonight that Ryanair are about to pull the plug on sevices to Fuerteventura from September next.Here´s the piece roughly translated....



"The Assosiation blames the cabildo for the loss of Ryanair flights.

The Cámera de Comercio (Trade Association) has described as "a horrifying step back" in the promotion of tourism the decision of Ryanair to cancel the aerial links with Fuerteventura from September. Gregorío Pérez blames the President of the Cabildo, Mario Cabrera, for breaking agreements with the businessmen.

Even though Ryanair have not yet officially announced the step the Cámera de Comercio assures that the low cost flight's company is going to cancel links with Fuerteventura from September and it has laid the blame with the President of the Cabildo, for having broken agreements with the businesses over the appearance of hire car companies and hotels on the official Ryanair website.

The Association is talking about the disappearance of Ryanair routes between Fuerteventura and various European cities, among them Girona and Dublin as a result of it being impossible to buy any tickets online from the 28th September.

The president of the busnessman's collective, Gregorío Pérez, warns that "One cannot hold the businesses responsible for the elimination of the routes". The low cost airline companies have contributed to the increase in the number of tourists arriving by something like 175%, according to the associations numbers, and what the halting of the routes means for for Fuerteventura "not only the extinction of a format of tourism which diversifies the spending in all sectors of the economy, but rather the total absence/lack of means to regenerate the stagnation of economic activity."

Gregorío Pérez added that the halting of the routes "darkens" the island's economic outlook, "and with bring with it another turn of the screw as the low cost airline tourists
spend the money on a large variety of services."



People are a bit anxious here at the minute and I was wondering whether anyone had heard something?

eu01
1st Aug 2008, 10:40
Maybe we (including myself) are too critical in our assessment of FR's results. Let's see it in this context (from the news today):British Airways profits have fallen by nearly 90 per cent and its boss admits the airline industry is in crisis.

"We are in the worst trading environment the industry has ever faced," said BA chief executive Willie Walsh.

Carriers are suffering far more badly than in the airline recession that followed the 9/11 terrorist attacks of 2001 in which BA bosses admitted they were within weeks of going bust. For April, May and June, the traditionally strong trading quarter for BA, profits plunged to £37 million from £298millionlast year, a fall of 88 per cent.

"The combination of unprecedented oil prices, economic slowdown and weaker consumer confidence has led to substantially lower first-quarter profits," said Mr Walsh.

The figures strongly indicate the airline could plunge into the red over the full year as it needs to make big profits in the summer to offset the traditionally poor winter trading.

BA's fuel bill will be £1 billion up on last year, more than enough to wipe out last year's record profits of £825 million. But rather than join budget-airline Ryanair in a price war to keep passengers flying, BA says it will charge its customers more.
It would mean Ryanair could try to keep its fares as they are. The most important thing, however, would be to achieve better load factors without those "free flights". Change your booking system, be more friendly to people, find new passengers by means of "safe-only" connecting flights... okay, try it just with hand-luggage passengers, but think of it! It could pay!

looot
1st Aug 2008, 21:57
Ryanair reducing it's capacity in HHN by 15%

Ryanair dünnt Flugplan am Flughafen Hahn aus - business-wissen.de (http://www.business-wissen.de/nachrichten/artikel/ryanair-duennt-flugplan-am-flughafen-hahn-aus.html)

eu01
2nd Aug 2008, 09:26
After a few gloomy months, some encouraging changes did happen in the functionality of the booking system last night (after a lenghty off-line period). Still being unable to perform parallel price searches for different travel dates, it does, however, react on users' demands swiftly now, even displaying taxes... Is that big faux pas and an embarrassing nightmare finally fixed?

pwalhx
2nd Aug 2008, 10:29
You can connect if you want simply book 2 seperate flights.

I know it means collecting luggage and re check in, but I have done it and know many others who have. More importantly MOL knows people do it and it saves him the problem of baggage transfer, which he would probably charge for, but doubt it will happen.

eu01
2nd Aug 2008, 10:47
I know it means collecting luggage and re check in, but I have done it and know many others who have.
However, we should keep in mind the typical attitudes of many "average people" who are so afraid of making anything on their own. They would be keen to use connecting flights, but they will not do it unless with the "all-at-once" ticket in hand, from start until the final destination. Otherways they feel so hopeless and unprotected, you know the people.

From the MOL's point of view... Well, he knows very well which routes could be connected with virtually no risks. When the demand weakens, maybe he should haggle with himself over his own rules (point-to-point only), if it pays.

By the way, I was probably over-optimistic about the booking system functionality, possible stood up too early. Now one can read again:An error condition exists which is preventing you from continuing. You may wish to start over and try again.

Additional details about the error:
[10004: OpenDatabaseConnection] An error has occurred. Please try again.
Message: The connection failed for Server = 'FRRZPHEDQ502\REZOLPRD01,52900', Database = 'REZFROL01'
Message: Cannot open database "REZFROL01" requested by the login. The login failed. Login failed for user 'REZ\FRprod_SVC'.
Arghh!

Actually, the M$ database is displaying us some 'secret' directories. What next? Passwords and credit cards' data for everybody to make use of?

h&s
2nd Aug 2008, 15:11
This is what I (aerospace) said in... January:
"it shows that the company is currently in a bad shape and quiet "vulnerable" with all their new crap bases (MAD, MRS, BRE, BHD, BOH)"

or in May:
"Poor new bases + lower LF + higher fuel cost not hedged = bad performances. I think their 2008 results will be not as bad as some could expect, but 2009 will be very very difficult"

Few guys replied that I didn't know of what i was talking about, it was non sense etc
Well, if shareholders believed me, they would have saved a lots of money!!

About BOH, I was saying that a double daily service on this route was non sense and I still remember a guy that told me that PIKBOH was an excelent route, where they were doing a lots of money with usual prices at 200 GBP ow! lol
For next week-end, which is one of the busiest of the year, so very expansive, prices from fridays evening to sunday evening (usually most expansive flights), are 9.99 GBP both ways without taxes, 70 GBP return all exclusive :E

On current situation, I agree with some posts such as Eu01 or StygerTim (i didn't know the PFP segment!) and just would like to add few points:
- all the promos confirm what I said few months ago: contrary to what they said in their AR FY07, their new bases such as BOH (non sense), BRE (disaster), VLC (suspended!), ALC or BHD (loosing millions of €) are terrible

- their decisions related to hedge is unbelievable! When fuel prices hugely increased, they said that they don't think it will go above 100$ and didn't hedge anything, whereas it reached 145$!!! Few weeks ago they said they expect the price to drop, but in the same time hedge 90% of their fuel at 129$ whereas current price is now below! They are always "playing" against the trend (if prices goes up, they don't hedge, if price goes down, they hedge), this is a very risky tactic isn't it?
Hedging is a question of risk management, but Ryanair over the past weeks only increased the risk of loosing money!

- they have zero strategic view: one day they will increase fare by 5%, 5 days later they will reduce it of...5%. One day they create a base in VLC, few months later they suspend all their operations at the same airport etc

- their Aer Lingus strategy is non sense: youou MOL, you are not allowed to merge with Aer Lingus, did you get the info??? That's a fact: the merge is prohibited by the european commision, so why continuing to buy shares??? Now that they reach the maximum of share they could buy, what's next? That's a very curious (stupid) situation: Ryanair and Aer Lingus are very fierce competitor. Every decisions of one could damage the other. So when Ryanair opend a base at BHD, obviously Aer Lingus performance at BEL is worst than expected, and so obviously Ryanair loose money as the share value of AL is diluting. Ryanair investment is a big paradoxal financial burden for Ryanair and a 100% "loose-loose situation"...

- their war with easyJet is non sense: Ryanair since few years invaded the uk and start a price war on many airports where they were in competition with EZY. Last one was EDI, and more and more head to head routes exist. This is silly as the GB is probably the most competitive market in europe currently, and very under pressure witht he economic dowturn. Btw, it appears to me that they even losting many battle against EZY, for example at BSL or STN where they suspended many flights...

- they are loosing plenty of people (in communication, marketing, yield etc). Ryanair experiments a huge turnover and it's not good for its performance. They lost plenty of marketing directors as they obliged them to swith their locations from STN to DUB, lost also the head of communication, of marketing, of scheduled revenue (this is actually the only good news for them) etc I would say that 80% of HQ people are not happy to work for Ryanair. Even more when they see their shares dropping...

I could talked also about their rubbish yield management (cheapest fares available one month before departure), the rubbish website, their rubbish customer service etc etc

Two little reflexions to conclude:
- who will suffer the most in current crisis? nobody knows, but I thing Ryanair will suffer a lot! I don't think lots of busines travellers will switch from majors to Ryanair, because of the obvious reasons that ryanair have very few business routes (a part from their DUB-UK services). At the end, they would lost plenty of leisure travellers and will win very few busines travellers. On the other side, I believe easyJet will be the biggest winner, as THEY serve main airports and yes, they will loose some leisure travellers as well, but it will be a lots compensated by the gain of business travellers on their key markets such as LON, ORY, GVA, MXP, SXF etc
This is by the way confirmed by their latest release: Ryanair saw a drop of LF (leisure) and of yield (no extra business) whereas easyJet experiences flat LF (loose of leisure compensate by busines) and an increase of their yield (more business travellers). Currently, easyJet is winning the war...

If you tell me that Ryanair get stronger during the past crisis such as 09/11, I think environments are completely different. The biggest difference is that majors are now a lot more competitive in terms of prices. Aer lingus or BA now offer very good deals. If in 2001, business man swithched from Aer lingus to Ryanair, I don't think that would be the case this year because aer lingus could be very cheap as well.

- I saw a sentence before such as "they don't have stupid people at Ryanair". I have the opposite opinion, even if it could look a bit arrogant.
Everybody working at Ryanair HQ will tell you that they are managed by ignorant guys. They have been succesful by copying an existing model, by benefiting of ideal conditions (deregulations, explosion of tourism etc), by exploiting economically the weakest players (ie. small airports and employees) and by receiving plenty of subsidies (whereas they present theirselves as the champions of liberalism...). There is nothing genious in that...

In current situation, where they have to use their brains for the first time, they are not capable to do so and goes from errors to errors. They only panicate and push pressure but finally upset airports (FUE, KRK, BSL, french ones etc). Hard to forecast when and how they will recover, if they will...

RAT 5
2nd Aug 2008, 16:23
H & S. You say RYR has lost many top level people. You say there are too many people left who are copying an old model. Doesn't sound too good.
10 years ago RYR had a model and only 20a/c. They now have 165 a/c going on 300. Is there anybody in DUB who has any idea of how to run such a large airline? It would be a disaster if they try to use a model suitable for 2 bases and 20 a/c when they have 20 bases and 165 ever increasing a/c. It is said they are now the world's largest airline in terms of pax carried over borders. If that is true it therefore means operating in many different cultures, local regulations, differing pax preferences, crews and a/c spread over wide areas etc. etc. If their model is still based on that of a small flying club, and there is no-one at the top with any experience or idea of how to develop and nurture such a hungry beast, then the future is very uncertain. The world around RYR has changed significantly in the past 6 years. Has their approach to it adjusted sufficiently?

besj
2nd Aug 2008, 19:53
@ H&S
One of the few FR-bashing replies I have read with some substance in...
Despite myself being a big FR-fan I will admit you have some ideas..
What you write about hedging is very true, but backtrading is so simple.
Regarding the competetion with Easyjet I think you analyze it quite well.
On the other hand I think that FR can pull it off using their economies of scale..

Seljuk22
2nd Aug 2008, 19:54
NRN-SXF, BGY-CIA and ORK-DUB will be 3 of Ryanair's test routes with only hand luggage! But I don't know when it starts.

glasgowpik
2nd Aug 2008, 20:07
What? Do you mean you can book these routes only if you just have hand baggage ?

FR195W
2nd Aug 2008, 20:37
What? Do you mean you can book these routes only if you just have hand baggage ?

Yes.

Greets, FR195W

eu01
3rd Aug 2008, 08:09
Almost perfect in saving measures, MOL has undoubtedly created the airline that can offer the unbeatably low-prices and by selling cheap flights is stimulating some additional demand. That's why I'm backing up the whole idea of low-cost air travelling. People spend less money for their flight tickets and spend more in the destination (helping local businesses and stimulating their growth). People should travel; it's fun, it's educating, it gives people some tonic, and due to the very existance of low-cost carriers for the same amount of money they can travel more. Regardless of the environmental issues, the air travel as a public transport should be preferred over the long-distance car travel. I would reserve some scanty oil resources in the world for all kind of public transport, including leasure flying, and I'd limit at the same time the too-intensive usage of private cars (if you asked me).

FR-bashing, as you call it, has indeed its good reasons too. One should try to influence the ways of doing the business. Flying cheap should not be associated with a cattle transport as many people still think. Unfortunately, FR does very little to change this picture. FR is not as crappy as the opinion of some critics expresses it. Maybe it's not crappy at all, being at least very efficient and punctual as well. But its CEO's rubbish talking (involving his people too), some unnecessary fights with the competition, local institutions and politicians, also the "bull****" opinions to the press make rather harm, not helping anyway to improve this image. MOL recalls me sometimes a boy having his toy soldiers and playing with them, planning wars. Look at all these routes commenced just to harm the competition. It's also a place where big amounts of money just burn. Do they have to dominate everything everywhere [especially on the Isles]? What for?

MOL is smart as an economical opportunist who was able to struck some good deals with giants like Boeing at the first place and others as well, including some airports, local communities, tourist industry and alikes. He is talented while negotiating with weaker ones or where he can pretend to be a strongman. But no matter how that kind of negotiating attitude can be percieved by others, he was able to make use of it and he did create a prosperious airline. There is an obvious niche for Ryanair and alikes at the market (quite a big one) and people will keep travelling with FR if it countinues to be the cheapest one.

MOL is brilliant in savings and keeping the costs low, that's why Ryanair still needs him. However, he is not equally good in his perception of the carrier's relation to the customers (paying attention to their cultural differencies), the route policy, travelling system, marketing and sales, to mention a few. We, critics, have on this forum alone presented many ways of improvement, how Ryanair could fill the planes without necessarily giving away flights for one pound/euro, or whatever the price is. Ryanair is in the need for a new strategy as a popular airline. As any coherent new vision simply does not exist, it's hard for us to keep quiet. Should we?

Skipness One Echo
3rd Aug 2008, 09:53
In truth it's often cheaper for London traffic to use a real airline as Stansted is quite ouuta the way and the amount of add ons plus Stansted Express is pricing Ryanair out of my range. Oddly enough, booked in advance, BA often works out cheaper. No ****!

Windyridge
4th Aug 2008, 11:59
Ryanair Press officer (Germany) Anja Seugling stated in the NRZ (Newspaper) that NRN is not in the test phase.

en2r
4th Aug 2008, 12:07
Did anyone else see the articles in the business section of yesterday's Irish Sunday Times on Ryanair. Apparantly Shannon and Frankfurt Hahn are the only lossmaking bases out of the 28 Ryanair bases. The Shannon base has never made a profit. Hahn on the otherhand was profitable initially, but the huge increase in capacity over a relatively short period of time (increasing from 4 aircraft to 12 in the space of 2 years) has made it unprofitable. Apparantly they're threatening to either pull out of Shannon or reduce services unless a new more profitable deal can be negotiated. Michael O'Leary is quoted as saying "I am not known for hanging around losing money". Considering they're reported to only be paying €1 per passenger at the moment its hard to see how it could get any more favourable for Ryanair without the SAA paying them to fly from Shannon and I don't think that would go down well with the EU (The existing deal sparked an EU investigation) or with Aer Lingus. However with Ryanair carrying approximately 70% of Shannon pax they really have the SAA over a barrell.

eu01
4th Aug 2008, 21:16
Hahn is the lossmaking base... (It) was profitable initially, but the huge increase in capacity over a relatively short period of time has made it unprofitable.
It seems a bit weird to me. Indeed, the LF's weren't satisfactory over the last period, but the situation has also been similar in many other places recently. And to my knowledge, HHN costs are far from too expensive...

But if true, the explanation might be found in the catchment area. Although the former military base Hahn uses "Frankfurt" in its name, it is actually located very far from the town. Obviously, some passengers come from Frankfurt and more or less distant places like Cologne, Bonn or Saarbrücken, to mention just a few, but this stream of people has its limitations. Most of the passengers heading to Frankfurt city will continue to use EDDF, Rhein-Main-Airport. The best catchment area for HHN is rather Koblenz, Trier, Luxemburg and the beautiful district of Rhein-Hunsrück, that is not so much. Here, again, looks like the saturation is approaching, too fast apparently.

One might say: if EDDF can serve over fifty million passengers, there is still so much to allure towards HHN, a low-cost counterpart nearby. Not necessarily, though. EDDF has developed so well not because it's so adjacent to Frankfurt, above all it's a hub where the majority of people changes from one flight to another, not just a base like HHN.

All these things are truisms, aren't they? As these are more than obvious for most of you, why am I wasting your time? Unfortunately the issue so obvious in relation to the legacy airlines still looks so strange in the low-cost context. Why?

Surely, the majority of low-cost routes do not need connecting flights. Between the major destinations there is no need to alter a typical lo-co "point-to-point" model. Indeed, there is not much sense in connecting, say, the STN - MAD route with anyting else. London is big enough to be bound with any medium-size airport in Spain, no need to bother with connecting flights. That's why the airlines preferrig major airports (like EZY) will always be more immune to the fluctuation in demand, a simple frequency reduction will do the trick. But if you prefer smaller airports further away from a core of the business, like Ryanair does, these issues look different. Throughout the winter season FR did have problems with LF on some HHN routes. Like, say, to NYO, TRF or PIK in the North or AHO, MJV, MRS, SDR, even GRO to the South (and more). Some of them were cancelled, some are still fighting for survival. So, in order to expand at most of the typical FR bases the strategy should change. I dare to say, if these dots in the network were bound and thus sold to more customers, some of the routes might have survived...

HHN has an ideal location in the centre of Europe, just as FRA has. Hence, maybe just this airport should be selected as the low-cost transfer point between the less-frequent, smaller destinations, serving diversified purposes and in that regard differing from every other base in the Ryanair's network? If the progress has to be made, it looks like the most natural solution, even if it was in conflict with the most strict interpretation of the low cost travel theory...

EI-BUD
4th Aug 2008, 21:54
I read with interest this weekend that Michael O'Leary admitted that Shannon and Hahn are losing money and he says Shannon has not made any profits as a base in the last 3 years. He said that Ryanair relies on luggage charges and onboard food sales to make any money from the base. He has siad that the base costs need to be addressed so if the cost per passenger is €1 hiow much lower can he expect to go?

And moreover where does this leave Shannon Airport Authority? They are effectively almost 100% reliant on Ryanair as a 'partner'.........

What will become of this?

EI-BUD
4th Aug 2008, 21:57
Less competition for Ryanair ex Knock airport from early September when XL Airways axe their Gatwick Knock route. Sad news really as it was great seeing it return after both easyjet and Ryanair had closed it previously.

anna_list
5th Aug 2008, 14:24
In case anyone is interested, the Joint Committee on Transport minutes are here:

Parliamentary Debates (Official Report - Unrevised) JOINT COMMITTEE ON TRANSPORT Wednesday, 16 July 2008 - Page 4 (http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=TRJ20080716.xml&Node=H2&Page=4)

The quote from MOL was: "Last year, Ryanair made a loss on just two of its 28 bases - Shannon Airport and a new base in continental Europe which it had just started to develop."

This quote may have been misinterpreted, since HHN doesn't seem to fit this description.

Seljuk22
5th Aug 2008, 14:38
Maybe VLC because 6 weeks no operation there this winter.

SZAS123
5th Aug 2008, 15:15
Hello!!!Looks at ryanair.com map destinations...new Ryanair base...red colour...in Leeds Bradford...!!!:Pgreeting from Warsaw/Poland!!!Stanley

F14
5th Aug 2008, 17:33
How many aircraft have Jet2 and BA got in Leeds/Bradford. I guess this will be a loss making base too. Until of course opposition is removed. Resistance is futile.......

airhumberside
5th Aug 2008, 17:54
BA dont serve LBA,and haven't done so since 2003 when they (or rather BA CitiExpress) transfered Jetstream 41's to Eastern

I think Jet 2 have 10 or so aircraft at LBA. Eastern and TCX have one each plus bmi have a few. KLM Cityhopper nightstop an aircraft too

sunday8pm
5th Aug 2008, 20:16
- their decisions related to hedge is unbelievable! When fuel prices hugely increased, they said that they don't think it will go above 100$ and didn't hedge anything, whereas it reached 145$!!! Few weeks ago they said they expect the price to drop, but in the same time hedge 90% of their fuel at 129$ whereas current price is now below! They are always "playing" against the trend (if prices goes up, they don't hedge, if price goes down, they hedge), this is a very risky tactic isn't it?
Hedging is a question of risk management, but Ryanair over the past weeks only increased the risk of loosing money!

Oil down to $118 today and some analyists saying it could fall below $100 within a month.

HeliCraig
5th Aug 2008, 21:39
Perhaps this might be better in the Ryanair thread, but as the story revolves around two organisations with significant impact on the UK aviation scene... thought I would post it here first and let the mods move it if need be (sorry if so!):

BAA is taking Ryanair to court over unpaid fees in relation to Stansted... linky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7543011.stm).

Sure the FR bashers will be out shortly... on the face of it sounds like FR have decided not to pay the increase they feel is unfair. Could be interesting if it ever makes it as far as a court room!!

HC.

ukdean
5th Aug 2008, 21:46
This will be good can't wait to see all the 737s being clamped. On a brighter note I hope they screw MOL over.......

RED WINGS
5th Aug 2008, 21:56
Well done BAA, I will be watching with great interest!:ok:

frfly
5th Aug 2008, 22:41
Leeds would seem a good fit for FR. With MAN being a little too close to LPL and just up the M6 from BHX, LBA could become an attractive base for those in the north east and west. DSA was always too close to EMA. LBA should attract traffic from the Manchester area aswell, and I expect the airport has lower costs. MOL could also be now using the economic downtown and start the bloodbath himself amongst the UK LCC's. In BHX and EMA they could kill WW (which would be a shame) and in LBA they could go for LS. Both airlines are considerably smaller and have higher cost bases. However, I think LS would be a tricky one to shift, as they seem to be moving their product more towards the next generation of charter/package deals, as well as they're profitable freight operation. Interesting choice by FR if you ask me!

I really believe EDI should be a growth area for FR, their loads look fantastic, and the yields seem good too, with fares looking higher on average than other UK bases. EDI has a good sense of 2 way traffic with it being a historic capital, whereas bases such as LPL and BHX will find it more difficult to attract inbound tourism.

lgw_warrior
5th Aug 2008, 23:27
ukdean, did fr leave you stranded for 16hrs aswell..? you seem to hold a bit of a grudge! i also read with great interest in one of you previous threads that you complain about heathrow raising there charges by 80 odd percent,now your hoping they screw mol.....? you post with a certain amount of 'outside' naivety.....

Anyway,what you have to remember is 20 yrs ago, STN was virtually a farmers field, indeed it was so quiet base training was a regular occurance due to large runway and quiet airspace, then the likes of ryan came along with 2,3,15,30 odd aircraft based at the airport, i think the highest number was about 42 based aircraft, operating a few hundred flights a day, bringing around 50,000 pax through the airport PER DAY, thats a lot of parking (at £12 per day), duty free (££££), sandwiches (+++£££) and all the other things that you pay for in the airport, im sure that the revenue BAA made covered the "discount" they gave to Ryanair. so now BAA decide they want to charge a bit more, is it fair, i dont know, but you can guarantee they wont be clamping any 738s anytime soon, that would be over 50% of the traffic through STN gone, every day, 364 days a year, thats a lot of money that BAA are going to lose on revenue within the airport! so i can guess i can see where Ryanair are coming from on this issue, in a time when the price of oil is a major threat to our industry,we need to keep people flying, because with out them spending cash its not just airlines that suffer, its all the ancillary industries that go with it. i guess they call it a catch 22,No Ryanair,No money,with Ryanair,some landing fee's and lots of money.

its a funny old thing this aviation buisness, wonder what STN would have been like without FR and Easy? interesting thought.......

lgww

INLAK
5th Aug 2008, 23:38
They're still charging the passengers the new rates though. Claim they have the extra in a separate account while awaiting the outcome.

Golf Charlie Charlie
5th Aug 2008, 23:39
I think Stansted started its lift into fame with the late lamented Air UK, which made the airport into a hub almost 20 years ago now, some considerable time before Ryanair.

lgw_warrior
5th Aug 2008, 23:47
your right, Airuk did have a hub there,but the're not there now (about 8yrs since?),so what would STN be without EZY and Ryanair?

Also remember that AirUk became Buzz which became Buzz stansted which became.........Ryanair.........


lgww

davidc8
5th Aug 2008, 23:56
Whilst it's true that Air UK helped build Stansted, it's largely RYR that have made it the success it is today, together with easyJet, Air Berlin and a couple of others.

Unlike the MOL bashers who never seem to stop whingeing, personally I hope that BAA gets a thrashing. It is a monopolistic throwback to the seventies. I wish RYR all the best in their fight with this dinosaur - also easyJet with their own action at Gatwick. There's lots pf competition in the air, but damn all on the ground.

merlinxx
6th Aug 2008, 00:01
STN has always been known to me as 'THE FARMYARD' (think back to the late '60s, only Channel, and as you are at (my home base) LGW 'tis '0ur little airport in the country'

keel beam
6th Aug 2008, 03:42
MOL could be setting a trend?

I feel like refusing to pay the Departure Tax because it is an unfair tax ......

though as I am Joe Public, the airlines would refuse to fly me :(

ryan2000
6th Aug 2008, 08:43
Speculation in yesterdays Irish Examiner that Ryanair might be about to challenge Aerlingus' dominant position in Cork. No major challenge there as they already operate 12 return flights per day from there while Aerlingus are only marginally ahead of them on 13 although this stretches to 14 during the Summer.

BigT2207
6th Aug 2008, 09:09
The war of words between two of Ireland's top airline tycoons has taken a bitter turn with the head of regional airline Aer Arann claiming Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary told him: "F**k off back to Connemara where you come from." Aer Arann boss Padraig O Ceidigh says the abusive remarks were made during a meeting which he called with the Ryanair chief late last year to try to sort out the increasingly hostile situation between the two airlines.
Mr O Ceidigh also alleged that Mr O'Leary, who is one of Ireland's richest chief executives, pretended to play the fiddle on several occasions during the meeting when the Aer Arann boss asked him why he was trying to put his comparatively small airline out of business.
But yesterday Ryanair said they would not comment on the matter unless they were told the exact date in 2007 of the meeting between the two men.
"Ryanair has been attacking me and my business for the past two years. Their strategy is to close down regional airports and Aer Arann.
"So I called a meeting with him some months back to ask him face to face about what he was doing," explained Mr O Ceidigh.
"[His] airline has about 55 million passengers, [but] they're focusing on a small little airline with one million passengers? It doesn't seem to add up for me that he is putting so much time and energy in to that.
"So I rang him up last year and I said 'Can I meet you to see what the story is and to see what you're at here?' We met in his office in Dublin airport at about half past eight in the morning and I said 'Michael, what are you trying to do to me? I'm not in your space. I have no aspirations to be in that league, I'm just trying to run my own business.'
"That's when he told me that he'd give me a bit of advice and said: 'Why don't you **** off back to Connemara where you came from?' Then he said in no uncertain terms that he was going to take my business out and either take over or do the same to Aer Lingus."
Although the Aer Arann boss doesn't believe the alleged remark about Connemara was intended as a slur against people from the West of Ireland, Mr O Ceidigh said he believes Mr O'Leary was making it clear that he should get out of the airline business if he could not handle Ryanair's tactics.
"I took it to mean that 'This is the situation' and that 'This is the aim'. In other words, 'If you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen.' And I think that was just his way of putting it."
He added: "I wasn't surprised by his comments, he has made ruder remarks in his time, but I just think that if this is the image of the Irish business person abroad -- because he is a world-class airline manager -- then that's certainly not a good thing."
Mr O Ceidigh went on to say that he was particularly offended when Mr O'Leary pretended to play the fiddle while he raised his concerns.
"What really hurt me was the way [he pretended] to play the fiddle. The Connemara remark didn't damage or hurt me but the fiddle thing was crazy.
"I was just asking him what his strategy was, what was he was trying to do, what was his beef with Aer Arann and he told me he doesn't have beef with Aer Arann.
"I said 'Michael, you've 700 routes I've only 40 but you're focusing on my key 40 routes. I said to him 'It's about you competing with me rather than me competing with you'. And then that's when he started pretending to play the fiddle. He did that on two or three occasions during the meeting. I got very frustrated but I didn't say anything to him. I realised it was probably a mistake for me to go and meet the guy. There was no point on arguing with him."
Mr O Ceidigh also claimed that at the end of the meeting, Mr O'Leary insisted on walking him to his car through an open plan office rather than down the original route that he had come in.
"I came up one stairs to meet with him and [afterwards] I was walking down the stairs and he said, 'No, I'll walk you out.' He walked me through the office where there were about 40 or 50 people working in an open plan office. Afterwards, I just felt that the reason he wanted me to go out that way was because he wanted to show his staff that I was trying to go to him on my hands and knees and that he had me where he wanted.
"I felt that was the reason because I had said to him 'I'll go out this way, I'll go out this way, the way I came in' and he replied 'Ah no, no, no, we'll go out this other way', and he walked me the long way around through the office."
Despite the meeting, Mr O Ceidigh says he is not intimidated by Michael O'Leary's so-called 'bullying tactics' and believes his company can maintain its position as one of the top European airlines.
"He uses a lot of bullying tactics towards Aer Arann but I'm not worried about it. Worrying is not a productive pastime -- I've a tsunami hitting me and that's Ryanair and I have to do what I have to do to protect my business and survive this tsunami.
"We have 1.2m passengers; we're up about 10 per cent on last year in relation to passenger numbers, we have new airplanes that we have taken delivery of and some more that are on the way. We also received the Palme D'Or some time back, which means that we are one of the top European regional airlines.
"But all that's not withstanding that we are in extremely difficult and challenging times. We are changing our business model to look at doing more third party work for example in relation to Jamaica we're helping them set up regional airlines out there, so we are diversifying our model any way we can do so.
He continued, "It's just very unfortunate that a fellow Irishman is trying to close me down. The future is looking tough and there are some very challenging times ahead. A lot of things have gone against us. Fuel is the big thing and I don't know what will happen with the economy, we'll have to just wait and see. But I believe Aer Arann is reasonably solid in the current climate and we are looking forward to maintaining our position as one of the top European airlines."
Asked how he felt about Mr O'Leary's comments on a personal level, Mr O Ceidigh said, "I was taken aback but you have to have a tough skin in this business. I want Michael O'Leary to know that you can take the man out of Connemara but you can't take the Connemara out of the man. And I ain't giving up easily."
And he added, "I don't want it to get personal between myself and him. I don't want to throw stuff at him in the media; I'm not interested in a media war with Michael O'Leary."
The airline tycoon also stressed that he wished to acknowledge Mr O'Leary's success to date, describing his achievements as "unparalleled".
"I think it's important to say that in relation to the success that Michael O'Leary has achieved with Ryanair, it's unparalleled.
"I think he has created a huge success out of the airline and I very much admire that, and I wish him and the team in Ryanair well and even more continued success.
"I have huge respect for what Michael O'Leary has achieved but I think he needs to realise that Ryanair could be a lot more successful if their style was more ethical and not simply a 'my way or the highway' approach. You don't make money by screwing everyone around you."
In the past, Michael O'Leary has questioned the viability of Ireland's regional airports. However there is considerable money to be made in operating flights out of peripheral areas.
The Republic's Department of Transport and Marine subsidises airlines to operate flights from regional routes to Dublin.
These so-called public service obligation contracts are awarded every three years and airlines are invited to tender for them.
The latest round of contracts were awarded earlier this year and, between them, Aer Arann and Ryanair won the most lucrative slice of the considerable €44.6m pot of funds, which come courtesy of Irish taxpayer.
Ryanair won the contract to operate flights out of Kerry, in a contract worth €5.2m over three years. Aer Arann won contracts for Galway, Derry and Donegal/Sligo, generating a total of €33.5m for the airline. The value of the contract from Donegal/Sligo alone is €16.9m, while it is paid €10m for the Galway route and €7m for Derry.
City Jet also won a €4.8m contract to operate flights from Knock, but the company is unable to service the route.
Meanwhile, when asked to respond to the claim that he had several months ago told Mr O Ceidigh to "F**k off back to Connemara where you came from", a spokesperson for Mr O'Leary said "Padraig O Ceidigh's claim that he 'called a meeting with Michael O'Leary' in recent months is entirely untrue.
"Michael O'Leary has had no request from Padraig O Ceidigh for a meeting in recent months, and nor has any such meeting been called or taken place during the last seven months of 2008. Since no such meeting took place, clearly the claims made by Padraig O Ceidigh about the content of this imaginary meeting are also fictitious.
"Michael O'Leary is disappointed by these latest false claims by Padraig O Ceidigh, which are sadly consistent with the false claims Padraig O Ceidigh recently made to Irish Entrepreneur Magazine."
When it was clarified that the meeting was alleged to have taken place in 2007, Mr O'Leary's spokesperson refused to comment further until an exact date, time and location of the meeting had been produced.
Ryanair last week announced that their profits in the first quarter of this year had plunged 85 per cent and that they were likely to lose €60m in the year to next March. As a result, a whopping €1.3bn was wiped off the value of Ryanair's stock price last week, with four million shares changing hands last Friday -- when Ryanair closed down at €2.34 a share. This has come about because of airline's failure to hedge against the massive increases in oil prices. Hedging allows airlines to buy several months worth of oil at a fixed price and many airlines hedged at about $75 a barrel.
In contrast, Michael O'Leary refused to hedge and his airline has been paying the market rate for fuel, which has gone as high as $140 a barrel. O'Leary's gamble has severely dented the airline's short-term prospects.
But despite the turmoil in the airline's share price Mr O'Leary, who turned the airline into the success story of world aviation has been awarded a bonus of €195,000 bringing his salary, pension and bonus package for the year ended 2008 to €1.2m, a 23 per cent increase on his package last year.

peter we
6th Aug 2008, 09:18
Anyway,what you have to remember is 20 yrs ago, STN was virtually a farmers field,

I fail to see how that's relevant, many things were a farmers field xxx years ago - you don't see anyone trying to buy Buckingham Place for 10 guinea's because that's how much the field cost 200 years ago.

WHBM
6th Aug 2008, 10:29
Why do BAA even tolerate Ryanair continuing to land if they do not pay their bills ?

If Ryanair only paid Shell 50% of the invoiced amount, do you think they would get any more fuel ?

hogarth1
6th Aug 2008, 10:43
BAA been gready again!! MOL should shift the entire operation to Manston. People would still use the flights. BAA would get the kick up there arse that they deserve. Good luck everyone at Ryan.

davehero
6th Aug 2008, 10:44
Can't they both lose?

anotherthing
6th Aug 2008, 11:05
Hogarth1

Manston would not work for many reasons - transport links aren't as good as people need and the amount of flights would not be feasible with current airspace routes from all surrounding airfields and FIRs.

Manston was tried a couple of years ago by an outfit offering flights for a penny etc. They did not last long. RYR would not accept the long detours from route that is needed to give them a safe climb.

slip and turn
6th Aug 2008, 11:09
I side with Ryanair on this one. STN would be nothing without Ryanair. Confirming lgw_warrior's scheme of events, I remember doing multiple ILS approaches breaking off at 0.5DME I think in a Warrior as part of my IMC, and sharing the airspace with a a solitary DC10 for an hour one sunny evening - 19 years ago!

Air UK gave STN a certain profile, but not even in the same arena as the kind of passenger throughput that pays BAA's bills today. As a local bystander, the way I would tell it is that when the relatively mediocre operations of Air UK were in decline, Ryanair saved the airport I think by moving their main base from Luton to Stansted. Ryanair's website booking system was revolutionary of course and its audience reached critical mass late 90s. BAA have fed from that trough ever since. Or have I remembered it wrong? :p

Ryanair are often bullies but sometimes that's what it takes when the likes of BAA become intransigent / unrealistic.

PAXboy
6th Aug 2008, 11:39
I find myself siding with FR - which is a surprise.

BAA's accountants need to consider helping their customers which will, in turn, help them with the massive debt their main board stupidly took on.

His dudeness
6th Aug 2008, 11:51
Well, Ryan doesn´t pay a Cent for landing in Hahn for example, their MTOW being exempt from Charges. If I land with my Cessna, I pay for it, mind you that I don´t need a tenth of the infrastructure. (yeah my boss could buy me a 738 to save landing fees in Hahn...no objection to that from my side:}) So I´m with BAA this time. Ryanair has been handled differently for to long a time IMO, that is not only the case in STN.

lgw_warrior
6th Aug 2008, 12:07
Slip and turn, bang on,you have a good memory......the time when the space shuttle came to visit.....oh the memories.....!!!

I know most people like to FR bash on this site, and yes, they can get a bit annoying! but remember BAA control london, they own LHR,LGW and STN, basically they can 'set' the fee's at what ever level they want, with the exception of LTN, if you want to fly into london then they have you by the you know whats!

so obviously its about time some one stood up to them,if it has to be MOL, then so be it, we all know he's a fighter!!!

LGWW

Capot
6th Aug 2008, 12:10
Scroll back to 2003 or thereabouts.......

"Future of Air Transport" consultation.

BAA (under old ownership) doing everything in its armoury, including outright lies, to ensure that ONLY the development of BAA's airports around London would be "supported" in the White Paper.

Those who proposed alternatives were told that Stansted with its second runway would be ready for operations by 2013, yes 2013. When this assertion was met with disbelief by all, BAA insisted that this was doable from the construction AND planning angles, as well as completely bankable, meaning that they could always finance it.

As soon as the White Paper was put to bed, the date started slipping back, as everyone knew it would, because BAA had neither the planning consent nor the money.

They still have NEITHER of these things.

Ryanair has consistently said that they, as the largest operator at Stansted, are not the slightest bit interested in funding its future development from present fees and charges. And they are absolutely right. Airports find finance, loan or equity, in capital markets, and service that finance from the revenue generated by the investment. It is crazy to do it any other way.

The problem is that development of Stansted is not bankable, especially when the income depends so largely on one customer, Ryanair. So the banks won't touch it with a barge-pole, which leaves BAA either doing it from its owners' cash reserves, or from increases now in landing fees in real terms to finance the development, or not at all.

The Spaniards will never put their own money into Stansted, so that's out.

That leaves user charges as the source of finance, and my money is on Ryanair winning that battle, because it's got all the aces. We will never see a second runway at STN, as we all knew 5 years ago.

lgw_warrior
6th Aug 2008, 12:14
his dudeness, you may have to pay a few euros to land your cessna in hahn,but do you or your passenger park you car for 2 weeks, buy coffee, food, sandwiches, a paper for the journey,maybe some perfume for the missus? and if your flying into the area on buisness do you bring millions of euros into the local economy, and while your at it bring in the tourists? oh and pay airport tax on the booking with the airline,oh yeah and buy an enourmous amount of fuel from the fuel supplier?probably not.........

this is what im trying to get across,landing fees are nothing to an airport,its the other services where the money is made.

LGWW

ReallyAnnoyed
6th Aug 2008, 15:54
In truth, BAA is only giving ol' Pikey a taste of his own medicine. He makes a virtue out of telling people that it's his way or they can just f*ck off! "My train set, my rules!" seems to be the mantra. Well, BAA's airport, their rules then, old boy.

Don't be naïve enough to believe that Pikey will keep 1 euro flights once he has eliminated the competition.

adam12345
6th Aug 2008, 16:07
Ryanair is in talks with EADS unit Airbus and Boeing Co. to buy up to 400 aircraft to secure mid-term growth following its recent earnings slump, chief executive Michael O'Leary has told Sueddeutsche Zeitung in an interview.
Planes are “about half as expensive as they were a few years ago”, he said, because of the currently weak US dollar.

Europe's largest low-cost carrier last month said first-quarter net profit slumped 85 per cent as its fuel costs soared, and warned it may post a full-year loss of up to €60 million if oil prices remain high.

“But the price will fall below $100 again because demand is declining,” Mr O'Leary told Sueddeutsche . “There is no oil shortage.”

However, if prices remain high, only between three and five European airlines will stay afloat in the longer term, among them “Ryanair and maybe Easyjet”, he said.

Airlines around the world have been merging with peers and buying shares in smaller rivals to boost their income in the face of surging fuel prices.

Oil prices have risen 63 per cent in the past 12 months and last month reached record levels above $145 per barrel.

Ryanair may 'buy up to 400 aircraft' - report - The Irish Times - Wed, Aug 06, 2008 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0806/breaking25.htm)

LEEDS APPROACH
6th Aug 2008, 16:11
Spicejetter,

are you positive LBA is not to be a new RYR base? The site still shows LEEDS in red. The new owners of the airport have stressed their desire to increase destinations from the airport. RYR have just announced two new destinations from LBIA. Just wondering how informed your sources are?

Leeds App.

sky9
6th Aug 2008, 16:19
Can't BAA put a court order on a Ryanair aircraft and impound it for unpaid bills? They normally paste it to the front left passenger door. It was a regular occurrence in the past, normally a prelude to the airline going under.

Wonder Boy
6th Aug 2008, 18:04
War in Irish skies as regional rival claims Ryan Air boss O'Leary told him 'F**k off'

Monday, 4 August 2008 (Belfast Telegraph)

The war of words between two of Ireland's top airline tycoons has taken a bitter turn with the head of regional airline Aer Arann claiming Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary told him: "F**k off back to Connemara where you come from."

Aer Arann boss Padraig O Ceidigh says the abusive remarks were made during a meeting which he called with the Ryanair chief late last year to try to sort out the increasingly hostile situation between the two airlines.

Mr O Ceidigh also alleged that Mr O'Leary, who is one of Ireland's richest chief executives, pretended to play the fiddle on several occasions during the meeting when the Aer Arann boss asked him why he was trying to put his comparatively small airline out of business.

But yesterday Ryanair said they would not comment on the matter unless they were told the exact date in 2007 of the meeting between the two men.

"Ryanair has been attacking me and my business for the past two years. Their strategy is to close down regional airports and Aer Arann.

"So I called a meeting with him some months back to ask him face to face about what he was doing," explained Mr O Ceidigh.

"[His] airline has about 55 million passengers, [but] they're focusing on a small little airline with one million passengers? It doesn't seem to add up for me that he is putting so much time and energy in to that.

"So I rang him up last year and I said 'Can I meet you to see what the story is and to see what you're at here?' We met in his office in Dublin airport at about half past eight in the morning and I said 'Michael, what are you trying to do to me? I'm not in your space. I have no aspirations to be in that league, I'm just trying to run my own business.'

"That's when he told me that he'd give me a bit of advice and said: 'Why don't you **** off back to Connemara where you came from?' Then he said in no uncertain terms that he was going to take my business out and either take over or do the same to Aer Lingus."

Although the Aer Arann boss doesn't believe the alleged remark about Connemara was intended as a slur against people from the West of Ireland, Mr O Ceidigh said he believes Mr O'Leary was making it clear that he should get out of the airline business if he could not handle Ryanair's tactics.

"I took it to mean that 'This is the situation' and that 'This is the aim'. In other words, 'If you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen.' And I think that was just his way of putting it."

He added: "I wasn't surprised by his comments, he has made ruder remarks in his time, but I just think that if this is the image of the Irish business person abroad -- because he is a world-class airline manager -- then that's certainly not a good thing."

Mr O Ceidigh went on to say that he was particularly offended when Mr O'Leary pretended to play the fiddle while he raised his concerns.

"What really hurt me was the way [he pretended] to play the fiddle. The Connemara remark didn't damage or hurt me but the fiddle thing was crazy.

"I was just asking him what his strategy was, what was he was trying to do, what was his beef with Aer Arann and he told me he doesn't have beef with Aer Arann.

"I said 'Michael, you've 700 routes I've only 40 but you're focusing on my key 40 routes. I said to him 'It's about you competing with me rather than me competing with you'. And then that's when he started pretending to play the fiddle. He did that on two or three occasions during the meeting. I got very frustrated but I didn't say anything to him. I realised it was probably a mistake for me to go and meet the guy. There was no point on arguing with him."

Mr O Ceidigh also claimed that at the end of the meeting, Mr O'Leary insisted on walking him to his car through an open plan office rather than down the original route that he had come in.

"I came up one stairs to meet with him and [afterwards] I was walking down the stairs and he said, 'No, I'll walk you out.' He walked me through the office where there were about 40 or 50 people working in an open plan office. Afterwards, I just felt that the reason he wanted me to go out that way was because he wanted to show his staff that I was trying to go to him on my hands and knees and that he had me where he wanted.

"I felt that was the reason because I had said to him 'I'll go out this way, I'll go out this way, the way I came in' and he replied 'Ah no, no, no, we'll go out this other way', and he walked me the long way around through the office."

Despite the meeting, Mr O Ceidigh says he is not intimidated by Michael O'Leary's so-called 'bullying tactics' and believes his company can maintain its position as one of the top European airlines.

"He uses a lot of bullying tactics towards Aer Arann but I'm not worried about it. Worrying is not a productive pastime -- I've a tsunami hitting me and that's Ryanair and I have to do what I have to do to protect my business and survive this tsunami.

"We have 1.2m passengers; we're up about 10 per cent on last year in relation to passenger numbers, we have new airplanes that we have taken delivery of and some more that are on the way. We also received the Palme D'Or some time back, which means that we are one of the top European regional airlines.

"But all that's not withstanding that we are in extremely difficult and challenging times. We are changing our business model to look at doing more third party work for example in relation to Jamaica we're helping them set up regional airlines out there, so we are diversifying our model any way we can do so.

He continued, "It's just very unfortunate that a fellow Irishman is trying to close me down. The future is looking tough and there are some very challenging times ahead. A lot of things have gone against us. Fuel is the big thing and I don't know what will happen with the economy, we'll have to just wait and see. But I believe Aer Arann is reasonably solid in the current climate and we are looking forward to maintaining our position as one of the top European airlines."

Asked how he felt about Mr O'Leary's comments on a personal level, Mr O Ceidigh said, "I was taken aback but you have to have a tough skin in this business. I want Michael O'Leary to know that you can take the man out of Connemara but you can't take the Connemara out of the man. And I ain't giving up easily."

And he added, "I don't want it to get personal between myself and him. I don't want to throw stuff at him in the media; I'm not interested in a media war with Michael O'Leary."

The airline tycoon also stressed that he wished to acknowledge Mr O'Leary's success to date, describing his achievements as "unparalleled".

"I think it's important to say that in relation to the success that Michael O'Leary has achieved with Ryanair, it's unparalleled.

"I think he has created a huge success out of the airline and I very much admire that, and I wish him and the team in Ryanair well and even more continued success.

"I have huge respect for what Michael O'Leary has achieved but I think he needs to realise that Ryanair could be a lot more successful if their style was more ethical and not simply a 'my way or the highway' approach. You don't make money by screwing everyone around you."

In the past, Michael O'Leary has questioned the viability of Ireland's regional airports. However there is considerable money to be made in operating flights out of peripheral areas.

The Republic's Department of Transport and Marine subsidises airlines to operate flights from regional routes to Dublin.

These so-called public service obligation contracts are awarded every three years and airlines are invited to tender for them.

The latest round of contracts were awarded earlier this year and, between them, Aer Arann and Ryanair won the most lucrative slice of the considerable €44.6m pot of funds, which come courtesy of Irish taxpayer.

Ryanair won the contract to operate flights out of Kerry, in a contract worth €5.2m over three years. Aer Arann won contracts for Galway, Derry and Donegal/Sligo, generating a total of €33.5m for the airline. The value of the contract from Donegal/Sligo alone is €16.9m, while it is paid €10m for the Galway route and €7m for Derry.

City Jet also won a €4.8m contract to operate flights from Knock, but the company is unable to service the route.

Meanwhile, when asked to respond to the claim that he had several months ago told Mr O Ceidigh to "F**k off back to Connemara where you came from", a spokesperson for Mr O'Leary said "Padraig O Ceidigh's claim that he 'called a meeting with Michael O'Leary' in recent months is entirely untrue.

"Michael O'Leary has had no request from Padraig O Ceidigh for a meeting in recent months, and nor has any such meeting been called or taken place during the last seven months of 2008. Since no such meeting took place, clearly the claims made by Padraig O Ceidigh about the content of this imaginary meeting are also fictitious.

"Michael O'Leary is disappointed by these latest false claims by Padraig O Ceidigh, which are sadly consistent with the false claims Padraig O Ceidigh recently made to Irish Entrepreneur Magazine."

When it was clarified that the meeting was alleged to have taken place in 2007, Mr O'Leary's spokesperson refused to comment further until an exact date, time and location of the meeting had been produced.

Ryanair last week announced that their profits in the first quarter of this year had plunged 85 per cent and that they were likely to lose €60m in the year to next March. As a result, a whopping €1.3bn was wiped off the value of Ryanair's stock price last week, with four million shares changing hands last Friday -- when Ryanair closed down at €2.34 a share. This has come about because of airline's failure to hedge against the massive increases in oil prices. Hedging allows airlines to buy several months worth of oil at a fixed price and many airlines hedged at about $75 a barrel.

In contrast, Michael O'Leary refused to hedge and his airline has been paying the market rate for fuel, which has gone as high as $140 a barrel. O'Leary's gamble has severely dented the airline's short-term prospects.

But despite the turmoil in the airline's share price Mr O'Leary, who turned the airline into the success story of world aviation has been awarded a bonus of €195,000 bringing his salary, pension and bonus package for the year ended 2008 to €1.2m, a 23 per cent increase on his package last year.

War in Irish skies as regional rival claims Ryan Air boss O'Leary told him 'F**k off' - Local & National, News - Belfasttelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/loc...f-13927366.html)

MarkD
6th Aug 2008, 18:22
It boggles my mind that O'Ceidigh expected anything else than crudity and invective from MOL.

In fairness though, I suspect O'Leary was playing the "cry me a river violin" rather than the "fiddle".

"Can't take Connemara out of the man"... I don't think it's fair to compare Connemara's subsidy dependence with RE's :E

Higher Archie
6th Aug 2008, 19:11
sky9, the usual technique to impound an aircraft is to paste the Court Order on the front door, and then park a snow-truck just behind the main gear. Effective, but not great for a long-term customer relationship.

Regarding the development of STN, the area of land that BAA have identified for G2 (Terminal 2 and Runway 2) is huge. A 2.2 km spaced runway and land for the terminal in the centre of the runways. It's a massive project, likely to cost around £2.0 bn, major difficulties, especially as Government policy is changing.

If you were a Board Member, sitting in Spain, talking to your bank, would you give BAA money to spend on developing STN? Especially when BAA are attempting to sue their major operator RYN for non-payment of landing fees, ESY and RYN objecting to STN G1, and a massive planning battle to develop new runway capacity as part of G2.

If BA were there, then maybe, but they won't be. R3 at LHR looks like a better investment, although just as difficult a task for Ferrovial. Maybe STN has reached its level as a major UK airport?

greatoaks
7th Aug 2008, 06:18
Can anyone advise what Ryanairs track record for cancelling flights from manchester is ?

L337
7th Aug 2008, 06:54
The last time I did it it cost me £80 overnight in a hotel near STN and £40 flight back to PIK. Expensive last beer. Strange thing was it was still way cheaper than flying BA or BMI into LHR even including that last expensive beer.

PIK is not GLA. It is Ayr. And STN is not London. It is Cambridge.

nt639
7th Aug 2008, 07:20
No Teversham is Cambridge!

Taildragger67
7th Aug 2008, 08:24
From the Irish Independent (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/ryanair-orders-400-new-planes-despite-bleak-outlook-for-airlines-1448255.html):

Ryanair orders 400 new planes despite bleak outlook for airlines

By Joe Brennan and Laura Noonan

Thursday August 07 2008

Ryanair, which warned last week it could be heading for its first loss since 1989, yesterday confirmed its next plane order will be for up to 400 aircraft, marking the company s largest fleet deal.

The news comes months after Ryanair began talks on the deal with the world's two largest planemakers, Airbus and Boeing.

Group chief executive Michael O'Leary said in an interview with the German newspaper Sueddeutsche Zeitung that an order could lead to the start of plane deliveries from 2013, after Ryanair s current order book expires.

"New aircraft are about half as expensive as they were a few years ago", as a result of the weaker US dollar, Mr O'Leary said.

While Ryanair has only dealt with Seattle-based Boeing to date, he said: "It is also manageable for us to give the order to Airbus."

Ryanair's fleet currently stands at 166 planes. It is set to grow to 195 by March 2009 and 265 by March 2012 as the result of a fleet replacement and addition programme linked to its opportunistic plane deal with Boeing in the wake of the September 11 attacks.

Mr O'Leary did not indicate to the German newspaper a period over which it plans to acquire the planes, and a spokesman yesterday declined to give an approximated timeframe to this newspaper.

Analysts said, however, that the significance of a deal largely depends on the timescale involved.

"Ryanair replaces planes every eight years. If they were talking about buying 400 between 2012 and 2020, that would equate to 265 replacements and 135 additions -- representing fleet growth of about 10pc a year," said one.

"If they were planning to take in over 400 planes over three years, that'd be much more significant."

Another industry observer said Ryanair was "very unlikely" to be able to secure its next plane orders at the same discount as the 2001 order.

This would lead to a significant step up in cost base.

- Joe Brennan and Laura Noonan

Cloud Bunny
7th Aug 2008, 09:43
Ooooooo, I wonder how many of them will be 777's!! :}

peter we
7th Aug 2008, 10:13
So in the same week hes announced hes going to go toe to toe with the BAA saying he can't afford to pay their fee increase because of the downturn in the global economy, he also announces hes hoping to pick up 400 A/C on the cheap because of the downturn in the global economy

Given his track record on predicting oil prices a month ahead its a bit rich of him to try and predict them 5 years hence.

pamann
7th Aug 2008, 11:16
And STN is not London. It is Cambridge

Ermmm, actually Stansted is Essex.

On that note Luton is Bedfordshire, Gatwick is West Sussex and Heathrow is Middlesex. Only City can claim as being E16 which is London.

Anyhow this has been covered too many times, but Stansted is definately not in Cambridgeshire.

befree
7th Aug 2008, 11:23
when things look bleak MOL will try to spin a bright outlook. Who is MOL going to be able to sell 265 off 737-800 (ryanair spec) to over the next few years. He currenly offloads a dozen a year to airlines that he is trying to put out of business.

Tooloose
7th Aug 2008, 12:09
You have to hand it to 'Laura'. She has managed to transform what Ryanair 'might' do, according to the Der Spiegel article, into seemingly hard news by inserting the word 'confirmed' into the report. Of course, no such order is 'confirmed'. They only 'confirmed' that they 'might' do it. Just the ticket, though, to distract the attention of investors from the recent litany of bad news and enough to give a lift to the share price from this week's low of €2.21. Good girl Laura. You're worth your weight in gold.

pee
7th Aug 2008, 12:52
Well, here we go again. The next episode of wrangeling...Up to 1,000 Ryanair passengers a day could find themselves stranded without flights as a result of an aggressive new policy at the airline to combat intermediary websites who offer flight bookings.

The low-cost airline is to start cancelling bookings which have been made on so called 'screen scrapers' from Monday.

Ryanair CEO Michael O'Leary said that about 1,000 bookings are made with Ryanair via these websites each day.

'We are free to cancel a booking,' he said a press conference in London at which he announced a massive seat sale. 'We want to cause as much chaos for the screen scrapers as possible.'

Screen scrapers are websites which compare costs from different airlines, and can also be used to book flights. Asked what will happen to people who have booked on these sites, Mr O'Leary said: 'They won't be flying.'

He said that passengers are 'getting stiffed' on these sites, which usually charge more than fares quoted on Ryanair.com.

Ryanair will refund the cost of the flight to the intermediary website. In such bookings, Mr O'Leary said, Ryanair does not deal directly with passengers, nor does it have e-mail addresses for them.

Passing the refund on - and refunding the cost which the intermediary site charged - will be left up to that site.
Thousands of passengers stranded again, because MOL detests all intermediaries. Anybody can explain that (Freud expert could help perhaps)?

The quotation source: RTÉ News

peter we
7th Aug 2008, 15:39
He is well within his rights and fundermentally its the correct thing to do.

chrism20
7th Aug 2008, 21:49
'We are free to cancel a booking,' he said a press conference in London at which he announced a massive seat sale. 'We want to cause as much chaos for the screen scrapers as possible.'

Is this the same seat sale that I have received an email for this evening advertising


THE START OF LOWEST FARE TRAVEL!!!


These fares are £5

The same ones were £1 last week, £10 at the start of the week and £5 now.

Someone mentioned a week or so ago that they thought FR's fares were now inelastic, I am inclined to agree.

Given the fact that the free or £1 sales are coming round some much more often, more and more people will catch onto this fact and only ever purchase when the fares are free or £1.

Powerjet1
8th Aug 2008, 06:33
MOL wants to buy STN....

Ryanair's O'Leary eyes Stansted takeover - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/08/08/cnryan108.xml)

VanBosh
8th Aug 2008, 07:55
MOL wants to buy STN....

Ryanair's O'Leary eyes Stansted takeover - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/08/08/cnryan108.xml)


I can see a few competition issue's here...

eggc
8th Aug 2008, 09:06
Haha...MOL wants STN & EIN, and will get neither - what a shame !

Better draft another set of more realistic targets...hows about Cambridge and Aer Arran instead.

EI-LAD
8th Aug 2008, 10:20
Here's a novel idea. How about keeping his mouth shut. Sick to death of this arsehole making stupid announcements to the press who are just too willing to publish any rubbish he comes out with.....:ugh:

nickmo
8th Aug 2008, 11:19
And now they're taking out an injunction against TUI for screen scraping - which is being denied so a nice job for the legal teams is on the horizon.

He regards the facility as an '..unnecessary barrier between the consumer and the airline...' - or maybe another way, is the client who pays direct just better for the cashflow then?

And the inflight mobile phone service is announced to be due to start on 10 flights out of Dublin from next week - wonder what the access charges and use of airtime will work out at for the user?

JulietNovemberPapa
8th Aug 2008, 12:00
Here's a little about it:

Ryanair to launch in flight mobile phones next week : Stansted Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/stansted-airport-news-070808a.htm)

TBirdFrank
8th Aug 2008, 12:33
Never flown O Leary air - with his customer facing skills I don't think I will ever be tempted to either!

rubik101
8th Aug 2008, 15:20
Nickmo, if you could buy something direct from the vendor, rather than paying someone 20% extra to do it for you, what would you do?
Oh, yes, of course, you'd pay the extra. Silly me!
Van Bosh, pray tell how there would there be competition issues with RYR owning an airport? Seems like a good idea to me, if he will halve the landing fees then I suspect some people would support the idea.

paully
8th Aug 2008, 15:21
If MOL buys STN then he will, almost overnight, cut the queues, both outbound and inbound, little or no delays on taxying and departure, he`ll show em up and make it look easy:D:D

Er how????...Oh he`ll just jack the landing fees up, out of sight, for everybody else and refuse rights to Aer Arran and others he doesnt like:=

Simple really..............................just like him...

adam12345
8th Aug 2008, 17:18
Irish budget carrier Ryanair has turned to Airbus for a possible fleet-renewal agreement, after failing to obtain suitable terms from Boeing, although neither airframer has yet offered a proposal to satisfy the airline.
Ryanair is looking at options for fleet development beyond 2013, and chief executive Michael O’Leary indicated to ATI yesterday that a deal could encompass 200 firm aircraft and options on 200 more.
While the carrier exclusively operates Boeing 737-800s, and still has dozens of the type on order, O’Leary says Ryanair has reached such a size that the benefits of a single-type fleet can be outweighed by other cost considerations.
We’d prefer to go with whoever’s going to give us aircraft that are $10 per seat cheaper,” he states. Rival EasyJet already operates Airbus A320-family aircraft alongside its own 737s.
Ryanair has been discussing proposals with Airbus, after holding earlier talks with Boeing, but O’Leary insists that both airframers’ prices are “too high”.
He says that “very few” of the aircraft covered by the future order would be used for replacing the current fleet, adding: “Most would be for organic growth.”

Wonder Boy
8th Aug 2008, 19:55
Taken from the Penguin Dictionary of Psychology;

PSYCHOPATHIC PERSONALITY A personality disorder characterised by amorality, a lack of affect (emotionality) and a diminished sense of anxiety and/or guilt associated with commission of transgressions.

EGNMCharlie
8th Aug 2008, 19:58
Looks like there may be some credibility in the rumours of a new LBA base ...

Ryanair holds out hope of regional base


BUDGET airline Ryanair is in talks about establishing a base at Leeds Bradford International Airport, which could mean a significant increase in flights.


Currently Ryanair flies three routes from the airport but does not have jets based there.

Airline chief executive Michael O'Leary said despite rising fuel costs, he hoped for Ryanair to fly between 10 and 20 routes from Leeds Bradford if an agreement were signed with the airport.

Mr O'Leary said: "It depends on a low cost base at Leeds Bradford which would allow Ryanair to establish Leeds Bradford as a base here in the UK. At the moment we have 10 bases in the UK – Leeds Bradford isn't one.

"We are in talks with the airport but unless the airport is able to beat the kind of low-cost offers we have from six or seven other European airports, then it'll have to wait its turn.

"If they come up with a really imaginative package on costs and proposals then Leeds Bradford could well be one of Ryanair's next bases in the spring. That would mean an enormous surge in routes, traffic and jobs at Leeds Bradford."

Ryanair's 10 UK bases include London Stanstead, Luton, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Liverpool. Last month the airline announced new routes to Barcelona and Alicante from Leeds Bradford, starting in October. It already has twice-daily flights to Dublin from the airport. Mr O'Leary did not discuss where the new routes might fly.

Leeds Bradford's new private equity owner Bridgepoint Capital has pledged to invest £70m in the airport.

Commercial and aviation development director Tony Hallwood said: "We look forward to working with any airline who's interested in expanding at Leeds Bradford. We believe we offer a great, competitively priced service at Leeds.

"At present we are in discussions with a wide number of airlines and Ryanair are one of those. At the present time we are more concerned that the two new routes just announced are successful."

The Dublin-based airline yesterday reaffirmed its intention to offer low fares in the face of soaring fuel costs and launched a £5 per flight strategy for one million flights in September.

It added fares would fall by five per cent this winter, and again reiterated its intention not to charge a fuel surcharge "not today, tomorrow or ever".

Mr O'Leary insisted the airline could sustain low prices and undercut rivals for the foreseeable future. Passenger numbers were up 19 per cent in July, with the airline now flying about 28m passengers per year from the UK, whom Mr O'Leary said are being poached from airlines such as British Airways.

He said: "We can sustain this for a couple of years even with oil at $130 a barrel. It will not be pretty from a shareholder's point of view. If it means for a year or two we do not make any money, as one of our largest shareholders I'm happy to live with that."

Last month Ryanair reported adjusted net profit in the three months to the end of June at 21m euros, (£16.57m), well below analysts' forecasts. Revenue grew 12 per cent to 777m euros, compared with the 865.4m (£683m) expected by analysts.

Mr O'Leary admitted the airline has been "consistently wrong" with its hedging of oil prices in the past 12 months. "I regret not hedging at $70 per barrel," he said. Ryanair has hedged its 90 per cent of September fuel needs at $129 per barrel, 80 per cent for its third quarter at $124, but has not hedged for the fourth quarter as it expects prices to fall. Oil is currently about $120 per barrel.

Mr O'Leary said he is in talks with both Boeing and Airbus buying new aircraft beyond 2012.

Source: Yorkshire Post.

So what does anyone think? I dont think there have been any press releases like this about establishing a base a DSA,MME,HUY,NCL so maybe LBA will be Ryanair's Yorkshire 'ub?

OliWW
8th Aug 2008, 20:19
In that statement it said somewhere about Ryanair wanting organic growth, so not too much of a growth but enough I am taking from that comment, so the A320 can hold 180pax max, and they already have B738, so I would have thought they will end up with the B739 which have between 205-220 passengers

eggc
8th Aug 2008, 20:46
If its 200 seats MOL wants then maybe these (http://www.sirocco.ru/comparison.htm) would be better than Boeing & Airbus...certainly would look nice with a plastic Yellow & Blue interior...and I bet there cheap !

lbalad
8th Aug 2008, 22:45
If LBA were to offer a low cost base as per MOL wishes,I think Jet2 might have something to say on this matter.

Can't see Ryanair opening a base at LBA,maybe introduce more routes with foreign based aircraft like the recently announced Alicante and Gerona.

eu01
9th Aug 2008, 06:29
maybe these would be better than Boeing & Airbus...
You mean Tu-204 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-204)? Well, if ever Ryanair Russia were considered... But what about the Irishman ways of haggling with Russians?
Never flown O Leary air - with his customer facing skills I don't think I will ever be tempted to either! Never with O'Leair? :8 That's what many say. To be able to attract some additional customers there’s much more in it than just fares...

EI-CFC
9th Aug 2008, 10:31
Mr O Ceidigh went on to say that he was particularly offended when Mr O'Leary pretended to play the fiddle while he raised his concerns.

That did make me laugh :D:D

OliWW
9th Aug 2008, 10:44
I read in a statement from Ryanair today that O'Leary said that Gordon Brown was a greedy b:mad:d ...

Good for him :ok::D At least someone has said it...

toledoashley
10th Aug 2008, 07:46
I maybe a little behind on this one, but I dont think it has been metioned. With all the route changes @ LTN, RAK is now 6x week, up from 4x.

eggc
10th Aug 2008, 09:53
I read in a statement from Ryanair today that O'Leary said that Gordon Brown was a greedy b:mad:d ...

Hypocrite !! I hope by throwing stones he smashes the windows in his own glass house.

Day_Dreamer
10th Aug 2008, 10:59
Sorry I have to agree with O'Leary, Gordon Brown is greedy and needs to fund all the non elected government Quango's.

Remember any free publicity that brings an airline to the public's notice is good publicity and MOL is adept at doing this.

You may not like the guy or his methods BUT they work.

eggc
10th Aug 2008, 14:04
Did I say Gordon Brown wasn't greedy ?

Do you think MOL isn't greedy ?

Well then, him calling anyone else greedy makes him a hypocrite, amongst many other unpleasant things...in fact I would HATE to be talked about in the way he universaly is...I do not see how creating so much bad blood & so many enemies can help you sleep at night...although for somebody so greedy the free publicity matters more. Rant over !

EI-BUD
11th Aug 2008, 18:48
I read above that MOL is suppossed to have said that Gordon Brown is a Greedy so and so? Well it is amazing. MOL invested so much energy in trying to destroy Aer Arann starting with Dublin/Cork and then targeting Cork and Galway routes with similar ones from Shannon,so one would wonder who is greedy? A small Irish regional airline has been so far up his list of priorities, it's a pity he is not up for taking on Flybe.

Look at the Belfast/Glasgow and Belfast/London markets, Ryanair's arrival on the market has not really had any effect on Flybe's numbers in these markets. I am so sure now that Ryanair will avoid Flybe, and contrary to what I originally thought I now doubt that MOL will take on Flybe on MAN or BHX to Belfast City..

What does anyone else think?
EI-BUD

eu01
11th Aug 2008, 19:03
Well it is amazing. MOL invested so much energy in trying to destroy Aer Arann (...)
A small Irish regional airline has been so far up his list of priorities

Who said MOL didn't have any weaknesses? I think it's one of his worst ones. Investing so much energy (and money) to play his very-small-and-meaningless games locally while wasting some opportunities (and not earning money) elsewhere. A kind of Achilles’ heel syndrome with poor and costly results.

OltonPete
11th Aug 2008, 19:38
EI-BUD

In respect of BHX-BHD they would be mad to challenge flybe with oil at
its present level as it would just be so costly. If it drops and when they
run out of viable routes from BHX they probably will turn their attention
to BHX-BHD. At present load factors are about 60-65%, which is still a little low I would have thought (although I have not checked fares recently) but the schedules have been trimmed a little this winter.

At present flybe has recovered its market share from BHX to Belfast
mainly due to baby's awful summer schedule timings. Obviously after
losing 2500 pax per each month baby have seen the error of their ways
(it was only scheduled that way originally for maximum aircraft utilization)and the winter schedule is better but I doubt if this will affect flybe too much.

Flybe seem to have steadied their BHX ship after the BACON takeover and I doubt that FR's new BHX-HHN and BHX-NRN will trouble their FRA and DUS routes respectively. They have dropped Brest for winter which had low load factors last time round and doubt that Ryanair Dinard has influenced this decision, well I hope not as FR are not operating this winter from BHX (keeping EMA though).

Pete

looot
11th Aug 2008, 20:08
and Ryanair hedged fuel till the end of December at 129 $ and 124 $. They made a mistake...again. This fuel hedging "game" at the White House is very dangerous.

NJTCF
11th Aug 2008, 21:30
At the end of the day No One Expected Oil to Drop By Over 30 Dollars a Barrell in the last 4 weeks Not Even the Analysts/Markets. I Bet theres a few other airlines that have bought at a far higher price!!

As per Oliww Above Remember This Goverment Takes a Hell of Alot of Revenue in GB Taxes.They have also Increased it since they have been in power. And Very Little Comes Back In to the Airline Industry its just Goes into the Goverments Pocket:(.

Charlie Roy
11th Aug 2008, 23:16
They made a mistake...again.

Isn't hindsight brilliant :cool:
I suppose if they hadn't hedged and oil rose to $150 you'd be the same person to say "They should have hedged when oil was under $130. They made a mistake...again."

Michael SWS
12th Aug 2008, 07:36
As per Oliww Above Remember This Goverment Takes a Hell of Alot of Revenue in GB Taxes.They have also Increased it since they have been in power. And Very Little Comes Back In to the Airline Industry its just Goes into the Goverments PocketWhy should any of it come back to the airline industry? That's the nature of taxes. And taxes are levied by all governments of all political persuasions - do you really think that the Conservatives will cut fuel duties and taxes when they gain power?

These threads are not the place for blatant political point-scoring. It's boring.

Seljuk22
12th Aug 2008, 08:31
"Experts" say that oil drops to 100 Dollar/Barrell by the end of the year. And exchange rate Euro/Dollar goes also down to 1,40 or 1,30 from 1,50 now. The financial crisis in the US is nearly over and ressources like oil, gold, silver go down.

Wait until winter, hedge then and the next year is a better year for aviation. :ok:

JulietNovemberPapa
12th Aug 2008, 08:41
Ryanair aims to increase gross profit to €900m by 2012.

Ryanair aims to increase pretax profit to €900m by 2012 : Stansted Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/stansted-airport-news-110808.htm)

Michael SWS
12th Aug 2008, 09:11
"Experts" say that oil drops to 100 Dollar/Barrell by the end of the year. And exchange rate Euro/Dollar goes also down to 1,40 or 1,30 from 1,50 now. The financial crisis in the US is nearly over and ressources like oil, gold, silver go down.Are these the same "experts" that were until recently forecasting oil at $200 a barrel by year-end, and a continued weakening of the US dollar?

Experts are no better at forecasting the future than the layman - if they were, then the banks would not now be reporting losses in the billions of euros. Let's just wait and see.

kingston_toon
12th Aug 2008, 09:46
Someone else mentioned it further up, but Ryanair's continuous special offer pricing is now just getting silly. I'm keeping an eye on quite a few flights up to the end of the year and many prices are changing two or even three times a day! For me, with Ryanair, there are three basic types of flight:

1) The Mon after 12, Tue, Wed, Thu before 12, Sat after 12 group.
2) The Mon before 12, Thu after 12, Sat before 12 group.
3) Fridays and Sundays.

The special offer box seems to usually state group one only, but then when you look the fares are often there in group two as well (but these come and go). Very rarely, you'll find a "higher" special offer for group 3 (i.e. group 1 and 2 flights £5, group 3 £10).

One flight I wanted (Stansted - Prestwick on a Sat morning) has gone, in the last 7 days (inc tax): £23.94, £9.99, £10.00, £5.00, £10.00, £15.00). Thankfully, I booked when it was £5 as I didn't trust another 1p offer turning up before travel. After I booked it though, the Friday night flight, which would have been even more convenient, went from £23.94 down to £9.99 special offer, but only for one day!

Now, there seems to be the crazy situation where there are two types of deal. Taking Stansted - Prestwick on Thu 25/9, you have the AM flights at "NO TAXES", and the PM flights at "SPECIAL OFFER". The fare for the former is £15, and for the latter £0. But select a flight and the taxes become £0 for the former, and £15 for the latter! So all flights are the same price!

I guess those of us who spend a lot of time searching for bargains have got used to this erratic system of pricing, but whenever I try to explain it to anyone else in the office, they just get confused, and often give up and book with another carrier. "But why does a SPECIAL OFFER fare of £0 end up more than a NO TAXES fare of £10?" etc, they'll ask.

I'd love to spend a day in FR's yield management department to see how they come up with these prices! :)

ryan2000
12th Aug 2008, 17:22
Maybe they should launch a 1 cent sale with no charges and no credit card booking fee. Even a limited number of genuine free seats would get people talking and flying.

Dream Land
13th Aug 2008, 09:01
Michael O'Leary comes out smelling like the proverbial rose. :ok:

Mungo Man
13th Aug 2008, 09:27
Care to expand old bean?!

Taiguin
13th Aug 2008, 09:31
Have a watch.... BBC iPlayer - HARDtalk: Michael O'Leary (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00d7dmg/)

NVpilot
13th Aug 2008, 09:41
Usually when someone appears on the program they are made to look like fools, BBC had a very weak case in this instance and Mr. O'Leary had some very logical explanations for all issues, such as the mistreated wheelchair passenger, increased taxes at Stansted, charging extra for a number of services and more. They also seemed to attack him for global warming when in fact his fleet is one of the most modern and fuel efficient fleets in the industry.

Don't know what it's like to be an employee for him but he seems like a real sharp operator IMO.

MorningGlory
13th Aug 2008, 10:22
It's not just the BBC who has a weak case against him.. I was a real fan of the business model and still am in some ways, but it is true that staff treatment is pretty awful, and I think if that one issue was addressed correctly then it would be a great and exciting company to work for.

Unfortunately it won't change and that is why Ryanair lose too many good staff.

:cool:

toledoashley
13th Aug 2008, 11:07
Believe it or not - the booking system is running slow again. How long can they go on blaming screenscrapers? I dont see any other airlines havng problems with their website. Ryanair trying to cut corners?

JulietNovemberPapa
13th Aug 2008, 11:09
Brilliant. :ok:

dubh12000
13th Aug 2008, 11:14
Slightly ff topic, but I find "hardtalk", and Steven Sacker (sp?) to be crap to be honest. Quite often poorly researched with leading questions the guests just know are coming.

Mitchell & Webb do a better parody version of it.

The Real Slim Shady
13th Aug 2008, 12:31
but it is true that staff treatment is pretty awful,

I think, me old, that you will find that the vast majority of pilots and cabin crew are very happy with their lot!

The bulk of the whining about bad treatment, lousy T and C's etc comes from outside the company.

CamelhAir
13th Aug 2008, 13:48
I think, me old, that you will find that the vast majority of pilots and cabin crew are very happy with their lot!

Obviously the pressure of such a good employer gets too much for most, hence the high turnover rate. :rolleyes:

You should try talking to the cabin crew sometimes, most don't find €800 per month take home to be a very happy lot.

Seat62K
13th Aug 2008, 14:18
Eight hundred euros a month take-home pay? That low? Are you sure? For how many hours work? (I know that hours have been cut.)
I must say, the reputation Ryanair has for poor terms and conditions is a concern I have - i.e., the uncomfortable feeling that the low fares I'm enjoying are being paid for by Ryanair's employees. On the other hand, how much different is this compared with, say, mobile 'phones from China or clothing from Bangladesh (except for the lack of face-to-face contact)?

Seat62K
13th Aug 2008, 14:37
And, when I last checked yesterday, still no way of finding the lowest fares, except looking at one day at a time :(. An absolute shambles. By the way, has anyone else noticed the fabulous "low fare finder" tool on Clickair's website? Why all other airlines don't make it so easy, I just don't know. (Actually, of course I know: it's revenue management to use a euphemism. The Americans call it gouging: a much better description!)

kick the tires
13th Aug 2008, 14:49
Had to smile at the end of the interview when h just about stopped himself from saying 'I'm never wrong!'

But I didnt rate him that well, look how many he times he dismisses statistic, people, research just because he doesnt agree with it!

BTW, did anyone manage to count how many times he said 'we wont add fuel surcharges....'!!!!

5/10

wobble2plank
13th Aug 2008, 14:52
O'Leary is no mans fool, you don't get to run such a ruthless organisation and amass such a large personal fortune by being a fool.

He is very very clever, extremely lucid and very well briefed. He put down any arguments against him in a clear, concise and practical fashion. I have to say I thought he came over extremely well. I actually like the fact that he is prepared to stand up and tell it how it is. Some of his views on the 'green' lobbyists are great to hear and something that the CEO's of some of the other large carriers could/would never air.

Unfortunately the cost of his success is borne by those who work at the coal face. There are far more ideal terms and condition available out there hence the high Ryanair crew turnover. But, if he can turnover the crew rapidly and get them to pay for their own training he will never have to worry about the £100,000+ 24 years in the firm flight crew. He will have his aircraft flown by cheaper pilots.

I just wonder how long the legs on the Low Cost business model are these days?

W2P

Seat62K
13th Aug 2008, 15:15
Although I agree that, in particular, the outrageous credit/debit card fee now levied by Ryanair can be viewed as a "fuel surcharge" in all but name (in the sense that probably the vast majority of it is retained by the airline and not passed on to the banks/credit card companies), I think that other airlines' declared fuel surcharges can also be criticised. For example, these add between £32 and £40 to the price of a return BA ticket between the UK and Europe. Their fuel surcharge alone is more that the total I paid for my last trip between the UK and mainland Europe on Ryanair. Bear in mind, too, that £10 of my fare went to the UK government!

Michael SWS
13th Aug 2008, 15:30
BA may not always be great when things go wrong - which airline is? - but they do at least make an effort. If a BA flight is cancelled you know that they will provide accommodation and food and another aircraft to take you where you want to go. If a Ryanair flight is cancelled you are left to fend for yourself, either to find your own way home or to book another Ryanair flight possibly several days later. Without any kind of financial compensation, of course. That is the Ryanair business model.

That is why many people, including myself, choose to fly with the full-service airlines. It's nothing to do with the "free" refreshments.

wobble2plank
13th Aug 2008, 15:52
I seem to remember that the Daily Mail (normally a great BA hater) ran a comparison between a BA flight to Barcelona and a Ryanair flight to the same destination. Initially the Ryanair flight seemed a far better deal. However when factors such as proximity to the actual destination, baggage fees, check-in fees, seating etc. were factored in the BA flight actually turned out cheaper.

There are pro's and con's to both, I don't think you will see the dinosaur/legacy carriers drop as quickly as many people would like to think because you cannot run a full scheduled long haul service on the LCC model. There and back day trips to Sao Paulo don't work and even O'Leary himself was quoted as saying he would never go longhaul as he didn't want pilots lounging about in hotels at his expense.

There will always be space for the two systems especially as long haul requires the feeder airlines and routes. It is not until you need this structure that the 'fixed' carrier benefits become apparent such as the overnight accommodation and automatic re-booking to the next available flight. Through booking for long haul with a legacy carrier will always offer a better service should it all go wrong for whatever reason.

eu01
13th Aug 2008, 16:01
Ireland's technology news service siliconrepublic.com (http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/article/11195/digital-life/is-ryanair-scraping-the-barrel-with-its-bar-on-online-travel-agents) has listened to the screen scrapers' opinions. Let's quote some fragments
Ryanair’s decision last week to block all forms of ‘screen scraping’ by third parties is more about its desire to be a one-stop-shop than unlawful behaviour on the part of other websites, Steven Rice, marketing manager of ebookers.ie told siliconrepublic.com.

This view is shared by the Consumers’ Association of Ireland, which made a statement to that effect in light of Ryanair introducing new procedures to cancel all passenger bookings made through screen scraping websites last Monday.“It is not untrue to say flights are usually more expensive from an online travel agent that has screen-scraped Ryanair fares, we have no issue with that. But let’s say it how it is: Ryanair is forcing consumers to go to its website because it wants to sell a whole plethora of products from there – flights are the hook,” Rice said.

(He) said Ryanair wants sites such as ebookers.ie to direct their visitors to the Ryanair website. “There’s no point in doing this for third-party sites. We wouldn’t promote bringing a visitor to our site and pushing them to another one where the sale is made. We would go out of business very quickly if we did that. The whole reason for a travel agent’s existence is to resell.”

Ryanair is the only airline that won’t engage in any sort of relationship with online travel agents in terms of reselling, according to ebookers.ie.

“You have to ask yourself why no other airline has a problem with screen scraping. In fact, a lot will negotiate lower prices with online agents because they value the business they create for the airlines and they want to incentivise us to sell more,” says Rice.

“On the whole, screen scraping is a good thing. It enables online travel agents to give a full choice of products to consumers.”

MorningGlory
13th Aug 2008, 16:18
RealSlimShady me old... I was ryanair Captain some time ago and can tell you from first hand experience that the pilots and cabin crew have got the worst terms and conditions in Europe.

The pilots may earn well but with zero benefits. I certainly didn't get the impression over the years that I was there, that the majority were happy with their lot.

However, as I said before, if the terms and conditions were improved then it would be an exciting company to work for. But that won't happen hence why so many leave, and yes they have got an extremely high pilot turnover so don't tell me the majority are happy!:ugh:

rubik101
13th Aug 2008, 17:12
Mr Rice is being disingenuous. Ryanair have never needed other agents to sell their seats.
Why would they now pay agents to help sell their seats?
Screen scraping sites will always give a higher price than the host. If they sold at a discount then it would be money out of their own bottom line so it never happens.
As Ryanair's site gaurantees to be the lowest price, why would anyone go elsewhere? If they find a cheaper seat, Ryanair will refund twice the difference.
Do you know how many times Ryanair has paid out on this guarantee?
Never.
Do you pay someone to do your shopping?
OK, you rich b******s who use Tesco/Waitrose etc online might do, but most of us choose not to.

Little Blue
13th Aug 2008, 17:47
I thought he came across as the usual sanctimonious old prat as always.
He continually spouted the same crap...no fuel charges, BA do it this way. Biggest airline in europe, etc etc etc....
If I hadn't been so knackered, I would have thrown my pc at the telly.
The man will be long gone by the time Ryanair have lost their way.
Shame, cos they were a fine company to deal with in the mid-90's.

JulietNovemberPapa
13th Aug 2008, 18:01
RealSlimShady me old... I was ryanair Captain some time ago and can tell you from first hand experience that the pilots and cabin crew have got the worst terms and conditions in Europe.



I'm pretty sure Shady is an FR training captain.

greenhopper
13th Aug 2008, 18:12
easy to see how much research michael had done in reponse to questions about passanger welfare and climate control judging by his answers -**** all.
The BBC provided him with a half hour of free time to advertise his low fares,no fuel surcharge,bla , bla , Well done mick,:D:D

The Flying Cokeman
13th Aug 2008, 18:19
Well maybe mr O'Leary was good at defending himself in this interview but he certainly was incorrect on the Ryanair share prices. Stating that Ryanair share prices are the ones who has the smallest drop is definately NOT true :=

In the last 12months from Aug 1 2008 FR shares have dropped by 55.8%:ouch:

For comparison following airlines have done better:

BA has dropped by 32.9 %

EZY by 35.2 %

Lufthansa by 28.7 %

Aerlingus by 41.3 %

AirFrance-KLM by 50.3 %

preduk
13th Aug 2008, 18:21
Ha I watched this and laughed... MOL may be a nasty man but that guy is pretty smart. I do like him as a business man.

peter we
13th Aug 2008, 18:47
BA and the like are unreliable, expensive, and have proven they are not great when things go wrong. So people will move to the LCCs - yes, they may not be great when things go wrong either, but the lower cost of the ticket compensates for this.


LCC are utterly useless for business travellers and that is where the money is, especially now that the fuel price makes such a big part of the cost of flying.
LCC's don't fly to the correct airports - when your employees are costing £40-200 per hour, you will not want to waste their time getting to Stansted.

Seat62K
13th Aug 2008, 19:00
That would depend on where you're travelling from. I can imagine that for some people based in the City, STN might be a more attractive proposition than LHR.

A and C
13th Aug 2008, 19:10
I wish that the great traveling public would realise that you only get what you pay for, that is why Ryanair is at first glance so cheap.

As some above have pointed out some times Ryanair is not the best option on cost alone and the service in very poor. In effect you are only buying the ticket to fly on the particular flight that you have booked for, If Ryanair cancel the flight they will offer you another seat but this could be days away. It is hardly a practical way to travel but it works for 99% of the pax 99% of the time and so Ryanair get away with it.

I can only stand back and admire the business skill of MOL after all he has hordes of people flocking to Ryanair to pay more for an inferior product just because of the low headline price.

PAXboy
13th Aug 2008, 19:31
The Flying CokemanStating that Ryanair share prices are the ones who has the smallest drop is definitely NOT true
That may have been a factual error but the share price is, IMHO, no representation of the value of a company - either today or in the future. Remember that the City are, for the most part, only interested in getting a return within the next year and will mark up and down by the hour.

FR are the cleverest carrier around. Oh yes, and probably the nastiest! I continue to regard them very highly as a business and, if I was one who invested in stock, I would invest in FR.

h&s
13th Aug 2008, 19:48
if I was one who invested in stock, I would invest in FR.

And you would have loose 8% in one day! :ugh:
55% in one year!!!

Ryanair is the most risky investment currently in the european aviation: Very high people turnover that goes straight to the competition, secondary airports (so limited possibilities to gain business travellers contrary to easyJet), non sense hedging, financial analysts that are treated as useless, very high risk of being again condemned by european commission for illegal subsidies, plenty of old very advantagous contract with airport that finish soon etc etc

The Real Slim Shady
13th Aug 2008, 19:52
“On the whole, screen scraping is a good thing. It enables online travel agents to give a full choice of products to consumers.”

Utter bull. It generates revenue for the screenscrapers.

End of.

h&s
13th Aug 2008, 19:54
The bulk of the whining about bad treatment, lousy T and C's etc comes from outside the company.


Absolutely wrong. Half of the marketing, half of the HR, half of the pricing (etc) teams have gone over the last year
Btw if you're captain, you probably don't know anything about what is happening in the HQ...

The Flying Cokeman
13th Aug 2008, 20:26
Paxboy,

Yes thx I do know how it works. But don't forget that if the city dont believe in FR and won't recommend the investors to invest in the company it doesn't matter how great Ryanair/MOL are. No investors= NO money and even FR won't survive long without their investors.

My point was that MOL kept correcting the interviewer for not having his research correct when MOL should have done the same.

Regarding your last comment on investing in FR: I am however more concerned about you and hope that any investment in FR from your side will purely be based on your admiration for the company rather than to make any money :uhoh:

If you invested in FR 1 week ago, your shareprice has dropped by 27.5%
and 1 month ago a drop by 14.9%

If you 1 month ago had gone for EZY instead you would have had an increase 20.4% or BA for that matter you would have had an increase of 20.6%.

FR have many contracts up for renewal as previously stated and recently made many mistakes such as not hedging fuel for 2008. Now they finally hedged until April 2009 averaging at $127.6 a barrel ,now where the fuel price keep dropping, presently at $113.
Of course it could go either way for 2009 but experts forecast the oil price to be around $79 to 100 a barrel, so a high fuel hedging could have a big impact on next year's finacial report again affecting the share prices.


I agree with H&S and I for one certainly won't invest in FR :cool:

The Real Slim Shady
13th Aug 2008, 21:09
Btw if you're captain, you probably don't know anything about what is happening in the HQ...

And in Paris you have some insight?

llondel
13th Aug 2008, 21:28
you will not want to waste their time getting to Stansted.

Speak for yourself, it takes me 30-40 minutes to Stansted, Heathrow is at least 90 minutes on a good day.

allanmack
14th Aug 2008, 09:07
Screensavers are basically middle men who take a cut. FR have always promised to cut out the middlemen so they are sticking to their word. Other airlines aren't following suit at present but you can bet your bottom dollar that they are watching closely!

peter we
14th Aug 2008, 11:58
Speak for yourself, it takes me 30-40 minutes to Stansted, Heathrow is at least 90 minutes on a good day.

Location: Cambridge

You don't say...

That would depend on where you're travelling from. I can imagine that for some people based in the City, STN might be a more attractive proposition than LHR.

Yes, of course thats why landing spots at STN are in such demand with business travellers.

The fact is LHR is the business airport, its on the tube Taxi fares are cheap and businesses chose it.

Personally I hate it as it inaccessible from SW London, but you don't decide the business case on where you or I live.

CamelhAir
14th Aug 2008, 13:58
I'm pretty sure Shady is an FR training captain.

Not surprising, as the main (and often only) requirement to get made an training skipper is to be a good "company man." Meaning hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

The Real Slim Shady
14th Aug 2008, 19:14
Not surprising, as the main (and often only) requirement to get made an training skipper is to be a good "company man." Meaning hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.

Actually I am a TC and your comment is utter twaddle Camel Hair.

silverhawk
14th Aug 2008, 22:50
Just seen the latest update on ppjn re Ryanair and FO bonding.

Somebody tell me that it's not true, surely.

pee
15th Aug 2008, 09:20
Ryanair is known for using pretty shabby terminals on some airports. If you were asked to name FR's ugliest terminal, which would you vote for? I'd choose Tampere T2, unfortunately. However, yesterday's Aamulehti newspaper has informed (in Finnish (http://www.aamulehti.fi/uutiset/pirkanmaa/100249.shtml)) that Finavia Civil Aviation Administration has completed the enlargement plans there. The refurbishment would cost between one and two million euros and the surface area of the terminal would rise by 500 square metre.

According to the article, Finavia expects to get some commitment from the part of low-cost airlines for this terminal to be used sufficiently. It wants them at least to open a few new routes or, better, to place 1 or 2 planes and create a base there. They envisage some Central European destinations as potentially lucrative ones.

Good to see some progress in TMP. After the news I'm a bit disappointed, though. We had to wait several years to get these humble 1 or 2 million euros. Now the money is allocated, but we still hear "if" and "when". Why has it been so much easier to find much bigger amount of money (almost € 150.000) for the enlargement in Vantaa due to Finnair?

And finally, how active will be Finavia in their efforts to get these new routes or concretize the base deal and start the enlargement? Time will tell.

CamelhAir
15th Aug 2008, 17:02
your comment is utter twaddle Camel Hair.

The 3 monkeys, I rest my case.

the uncomfortable feeling that the low fares I'm enjoying are being paid for by Ryanair's employees.

This is sadly correct. And the cc money is that low. When you see the girls walking to the airport at 0400, rain or shine, as they can't afford a taxi, you might not feel so good about your low fares. Although, according to Slim Shady, they are very happy with their lot...
So remember that the next time you take a flight, your crew have probably walked some miles to the airport, after spending the night in a room shared with 2 or 3 others and won't have eaten or rested during the duty, regardless of length. Not to speak of the cc that faint from time to time due to not being to afford to eat for some days. Far fetched? Sounds it. Truth? Yep, I've seen it happen, more than once.
And don't forget the pilots who sleep in their cars cos they can't afford a hotel or b&b. Safe? You tell me. Happy with their lot? What do you think?

The Real Slim Shady
15th Aug 2008, 18:01
Camel Hair, of course, works for Ryanair.

If he is so disenchanted I leave it to you to question why he doesn't leave.

CamelhAir
15th Aug 2008, 18:10
If he is so disenchanted I leave it to you to question why he doesn't leave.

Why or why I don't leave doesn't detract from the veracity of my remarks. The debate is not about why you or I still work for ryanair but about the conditions under which we, and everyone else, work. Play the ball Slim, not the man.

The Real Slim Shady
16th Aug 2008, 14:08
There is nothing wrong with the T and Cs.

We get paid a vast amount of money for flying very new shiny aircraft.

We have rosters which allow us to plan our freetime.

We suffer minimal roster disruption.

We have perfectly adequate staff travel facilities.

We have a pension scheme.

We get £5k a year to pay for parking,medicals, uniform etc.

The cabin crew get paid well for working.

Exactly what do you want?

FA10
16th Aug 2008, 14:45
100% agreed, Shady!

looot
16th Aug 2008, 15:07
"
The cabin crew get paid well for working.
"


this is a lie. Many many cc earn 800 euros/pounds!! At Easyjet a cc gets around 1700-2000 pounds!!! Do you see the difference?

Maybe your sector check is 5000 as a senior captain (plus couple of thousands basic) , but cc with the Ryanair contract gets a basic of 800 (commission already included) , and a sector pay of 400. Dalmac, Crewlink etc contractors don't have basic salary, just sector pay.

So, if you think cc are well paid, then i send you my bank details, and you can transfer 500 euro every month into my account.

Seat62K
16th Aug 2008, 17:07
Just saw an item on BBC1's local television news for the eastern counties which claimed that Ryanair is interested in buying STN. Now I know that MOL said this recently, but didn't he later retract the comment? Has the idea resurfaced or is the BBC simply rehashing old (but out of date) news? Anyone know?

Looot,
You state that on a Ryanair contract cabin crew get 800 basic plus sector pay of 400. To clarify:
(i) Is this euros?
(ii) Is this take home pay or gross?
(iii) How many hours a month work does this typically represent?
Thank you.

Jet22,
You can find answers to most of your questions on the Ryanair website and in threads on this website. It is, however, not possible to book next summer's flights just yet and it's anyone's guess what it'll cost by the time seats are released for sale.

Runway 31
16th Aug 2008, 17:57
There was an article in at least one of todays paper in which MOL states that RYR have no intention of buying Stansted but they will work closely with whoever does.

Night_fr8
16th Aug 2008, 20:25
Shady

Find out who the camel with the hump is and fail his next checkride, he is certainly talking tripe on here and putting some good people off joining.

If he was on my flight deck I think he would be failed on CRM alone.
But I dont check or work for RYR.

Camel

You do talk so much twaddle that i wonder why you are in this job at all but its probably because your too much of a trouble maker to get a job elsewhere.


Remember that people choose RYR to work for and others to fly with, and I have never had a bad experience as a passenger with them, better in fact that some legacy carriers.

eu01
16th Aug 2008, 21:34
Ryanair is known for using pretty shabby terminals on some airports. If you were asked to name FR's ugliest terminal, which would you vote for? I'd choose Tampere T2, unfortunately. However, yesterday's Aamulehti newspaper has informed (in Finnish) that Finavia Civil Aviation Administration has completed the enlargement plans there. The refurbishment would cost between one and two million euros and the surface area of the terminal would rise by 500 square metre.

According to the article, Finavia expects to get some commitment from the part of low-cost airlines for this terminal to be used sufficiently. It wants them at least to open a few new routes or, better, to place 1 or 2 planes and create a base there. They envisage some Central European destinations as potentially lucrative ones.
From the linked text, only these destinations can be understood by most readers, I'm afraid. :ok:
Warsaw, Prague, Budapest on the favourites list... but BUD and WAW are rather Wizzair bases, not FR's prime destinations...

looot
16th Aug 2008, 21:42
Seat62K

pounds if you based in UK, euros if you based outside UK.
your sector checks are different every month, it depends of course how many hours you flown (normally around 50 sectors). In some bases cc have 3-4 stand-by's out of 5 days, and there are also other bases, where cc are really busy, with only 1-2 stand-by's a week. CC's with contractor contracts usually gets 12-14000 euros netto/year. Of course there are no benefits at all, just deductions (uniform, sick pay etc) This is very low. But senior cc's are not in a better position either.. 2 years probationary period is a non-sense! (first 12 months when you are joining the company, then another 12 when you getting the Ryanair contract) I know many CPT's and FO's do not have a clue about the cc's salary and conditions, so they think like Slim Shady that they earn a decent salary...

Some poor soul even started a website: UNION - HOME (http://www.turbulence08.org)

The Real Slim Shady
16th Aug 2008, 22:08
Night_fr8

Anyone doing anyone's check ride is only interested in their performance: their opinions are irrelevant unless they run counter to company SOP e.g suggesting to another crewmember that they would be OK to breach a regulation.

Whilst I don't agree with some of Camel Hair's opinion I am certain that he is a professional and most competent aviator.

looot

I know for a fact, as my partner is FR CC, that a #1 makes at least £800 basic and up to another £700 in sector pay and commission. That's £18000 net which is around £24K gross.

UK average earnings in the public sector stand at £452 per week gross as a median, the private sector is slightly lower: that's £23504 per year, pretty close to the £24K FR pay.

looot
16th Aug 2008, 22:27
1500 pounds for a cabin supervisor is far away from "well paid", as you stated earlier. I know many juniors who got 800 euros netto a month. Especially in the spanish bases... In Italy is the situation very similar. UK and IRE are maybe better because of the route network and LF....

The Real Slim Shady
17th Aug 2008, 11:42
looot

The cost of living index shows that, based on New York, London is 25% more expensive, whereas Barcelona is 5% cheaper.

If you want to earn more money and spend it faster, come to STN.

F14
17th Aug 2008, 18:23
LoootI feel sorry for your low take home, I guess you are quite new to FR and flying?6 years ago FR CC's were well paid and had full-time jobs, which for CC jobs are very rare outside of Flag Carriers.back then No1's were pulling in 2k in Euros. But as you know with FR, they make life "difficult" for crew and they leave. Therefore they come to Eastern Europe with the recruitment roadshow and sell the "Ryanair Dream". The Eastern European newbies love the low salaries and the chance to work in a "Leading Airline".Of course it's all nonsense and they leave because the majority have excellent educations. Then the next batch (probably u) come on even worse money. Sorry m8, but on these boards u won;t get alot of sympathy.

looot
18th Aug 2008, 07:44
i never complain about my salary, for me it's o.k. I'm cc because i like the job. And after almost 5000 duty hours with Ryanair i still love it. I'm not depending on this salary because of my family background. I just wanted to write to Slim Shady some actual numbers about the cc salary, because he said, we are well paid... Comparing this numbers to another similar size/revenue LCC, this salary is low (and no benefits in the 1st year). Of course this still attracts lot of wannabe cc from Eastern European countries, but because there is no recruitment/selection process, everybody can be a cc. Ppl with very questionable level of English combined with zero customer service are also welcome. And this is not good at all. The turnover is very high, and they grooming is sh*t. (to prevent future flame, i'm also from Eastern Europe)

Buster the Bear
19th Aug 2008, 20:14
Any idea when Ryanair are going to include all the hidden charges/taxes in their headline fares, as per the enforcement?

I went to book flights this evening and still Ryanair defies!

eu01
19th Aug 2008, 21:01
Ryanair is canceling tickets bought through third party websites... an update by About.com
The latest from the Irish airline is that it is currently denying boarding to 450 people a day, despite being asked by the National Consumer Agency in Ireland to at least honor flights bought before August 11. Ryanair said no. Though passengers are being reimbursed, this is 450 ruined vacations a day.
I know, smart people book directly via ryanair.com website. But not everybody is smart enough, should these guys be punished now?

BigT2207
19th Aug 2008, 23:30
What if you are a elderly person scared of computers or someone with dyslexia, or other disabilities and the only way to book flights is through a third party. Why should people be punished again. I cannot see Ryanair's problem they are still getting there iwn advertised price and filling up their aircraft.

peter we
20th Aug 2008, 10:33
You misunderstand. Its third party WEBSITES they are banning, not a third party person who books the tickets for you.

BigT2207
20th Aug 2008, 10:51
Sorry I should have made myself clearer. I did not mean a third party as in friend relative ect or even websites. I was thinking more of travel agents flight only specialists.

Angry Rebel
20th Aug 2008, 13:05
"Travel agent flight only specialists" can book directly on ryanair.com!

toledoashley
20th Aug 2008, 13:31
No STN-FUE flights from the 13JAN?

BigT2207
20th Aug 2008, 15:06
read the post I was replying to

Based
20th Aug 2008, 16:22
Buster the Bear
Any idea when Ryanair are going to include all the hidden charges/taxes in their headline fares, as per the enforcement?


You mustn't have refreshed your browser, they already do. If you're refering to the debit/credit card fee then admittedly they are pushing the limits with this one but are still complying as long as the Visa Electron (or alternative) option remains free. Hope you got yourself a few of those €5/£5 flights they're selling at the minute!

Gaza
20th Aug 2008, 20:14
Is it just me or is the Ryanair website playing up big style again?

Last week i tried checking in on-line for my PIK-BOU flight but could not complete it as the very bottom right hand field was incomplete. All it showed was: "Country of ". There was no dropdown box to select anything. I arrived at PIK and explained the problem and they happily stamped my various printed off proofs (on 4 different PCs) "No Charge" and a I used the normal check-in.

Today I tried to change my return but it steadfastly refused to allow me. I eventually had to call the Reservation Centre. I use the "Rest of the World +353 1 249 7791" number as it ony costs me 2p per minute on 18866.com as opposed to the 0871 UK number at 10p per minute. After a long wiat I eventually got through to someone who replicated what I was doing and agreed the site is broken and mad ethe change for me at Internet prices.

Tonight I've tried to check-in on-line again and got exactly the same issue again: the very bottom right hand field was incomplete. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

greenbroker
20th Aug 2008, 21:33
The site has been playing up. See my posts under Ryanair Website Not Taking Booking? in the Passengers & SLF (Self Loading Freight) forum. (http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/339391-ryanair-website-not-taking-booking.html)

Unlike you, the Reservations centre would not offer me the website price.

pee
21st Aug 2008, 10:19
Ryanair Website Not Taking Booking?
Well, it's a nuisance for the passengers, but it's an obvious financial loss for the airline too. They say MOL is talented in cutting the cost base. Well, he is, no doubts about it. But there are still many gaps in the Ryanair scheme and many money-burning flows. The booking system is certainly one of them.

What would cost the fast creation of a better booking system? I bet the costs of such a fully-functional system would be much lower than the amount of money lost within the half year of that hopeless juggle with the present one. It still doesn't work properly, I believe it's a time bomb with more problems ahead.

Cutting the costs required? There is an other issue that should be addressed, it's a route policy. In fact Ryanair doesn't have any consistent route policy. I perceive it as something like "try-it-and-dump-or-continue" rule. The research... do they have any? FR does not seem to pay enough attention to the viability of some routes, in some cases the reaction is very slow. Being more active in seeking opportunities could be profitable too.

Once again, I'll give an example from my own yard - analyzing the Finnish market. Let's compare two longest routes from Tampere, these are DUB-TMP and BGY-TMP. The former is just an average one, with load factors around 80% and not the best yields. Right now one can get flights from September onwards for just 5 euros on many dates. Checking the latter we see an excellent load factors to Bergamo, over 90% across the board, very often up to 100%. The fares unusually high, hardly ever below 50 euros, last minute prices as high as 200 euros one-way. What would the flexible airline do? Firstly, it would try to rise the frequencies on the "better" route keeping an eye on the less profitable one. Secondly, it would try to broaden the offer by cautiously adding other routes between the two successful countries (Italy-Finland in that case; Pisa? Rome?). Thirdly, it would analyze which direction of flights to the country is more popular, e.g. East-West or North-South and would try to find similar destinations in the nearby counties. And so on.

Ryanair seems to be "immune" to such nuances like the passengers' "wish list". Why? Is this lack of flexibility due to lack of applicable "marketing agreements" and other deals? If that's the case it must be a very crippling rule, is it worth it? The possible gains resulting from some deals might not level the losses.

The Real Slim Shady
21st Aug 2008, 10:53
Pee, there may exist other conditions, primarily negotiations with the airport over charges and costs, which are restricting growth.

pee
21st Aug 2008, 11:10
there may exist other conditions, primarily negotiations with the airport over charges and costs, which are restricting growth
Of course there are many such conditions. But the growth can be hampered also by being too rigid in sticking to one's own rules. Say, flying for nothing because the agreement is so good, not flying where excellent earnings could be achieved even with the conditions as they are.

greenbroker
23rd Aug 2008, 18:46
Say, flying for nothing because the agreement is so good, not flying where excellent earnings could be achieved even with the conditions as they are.As The Real Slim Shady states, there might be other factors involved such as,

Airport capacity.
Trained crew with the ability to speak the local language.
Pilots trained to land at certain destinations.
Competition with other airlines.

ReallyAnnoyed
23rd Aug 2008, 19:33
Only very few airports require extra sim training, greenbroker.

eu01
24th Aug 2008, 08:24
the worlds first airline to offer "priority booking". For a small fee, you are given access to the old booking engine
A bit surrealistic approach, but... who knows? Good as joke, anyway. :E

The software provider Navitaire has moved to .NET 2.0 framework and Microsoft SQL Server 2005 Enterprise but that has failed to provide more efficiency and caused persistent hobbling of the booking system. There might be some disharmony in relation to the inflated hardware needs caused by the migration, but I suspect many more reasons of the malfunctioning. As a self-educated C++ programmer (just a part-time activity of mine) I would rather turn my suspicions into a lack of a programming algorhythm that would allow to speed up the tasks and lessen the use of hardware resources. Especially the price searches seem to consume much of the computing power. I cannot blame the hardware-hungry M$ technology alone, in fact the new SQL Server allows things like creation of a hot standby database that maintains close synchronization with a primary database, they could make use of it. I could envisage e.g. using a secondary "price" server just to perform actual price searches without burdening the main booking system with other tasks than solely bookings. Or, alternatively, some better price-indexing solutions could be deployed to improve the searches. I do not want to go further into the subject but hope to see the end of this disgrace for both Navitaire and Ryanair.

pee
27th Aug 2008, 12:53
Ryanair news from Italy:

Ryanair says no to a future transfer to Viterbo: 'If we are forced to leave from Ciampino we'll leave the region'. That way Alessia Viviani, Ryanair's marketing manager for Southern Europe, answered to the question about the airline stand on the possible transfer of their flights to the future airport Viterbo. Ryanair has been present at Ciampino since 2002 serving there 15 million passengers so far.

Aisle2c
27th Aug 2008, 15:11
Ryanair are closing some route out of Cork, loss of 100,000 seats. Sorry for the vagueness, as I only caught the tail end of it on the news. I will try to get updated info.

Aisle2c
27th Aug 2008, 15:13
Ryanair to close two Cork-UK routes

27/08/2008 - 15:56:51
Ryanair has announced the closure of two of the seven routes it operates from Cork.

From the end of October Ryanair will close its daily routes between Cork to East Midlands and Glasgow (Prestwick) airports.

The airline said the move follows a 20% increase in charges being imposed on these two routes by Cork Airport.

The East Midlands route will close on October 26 while the Glasgow service will cease two days later.

Ryanair warned the route cancellations would result in loss of 100,000 passengers at Cork this winter (200,000 in a full year) and amounts to a 6% drop in traffic using the airport.

The Real Slim Shady
27th Aug 2008, 15:26
That represents a lot of lost revenue for Cork Airport.

If 10% of the pax are dropped off it's 46000€ in short term car parking fees alone. If 50% park for 2 days it adds another 2 700 000€ down the drain and that's before the reduction in sales in the terminal.

drnick384
27th Aug 2008, 17:51
The full article
Ryanair to close two Cork routes

From irishtimes.com

17:27

Wednesday, 27th August, 2008

Ryanair said today it is to close two of the seven routes it operates from Cork airport from the end of October following what it claimed was a 20 per cent increase in charges imposed on the routes.
http://m.uk.2mdn.net/dot.gif

http://m.uk.2mdn.net/1303434/PID_704020_backup_250x250.jpg http://ad.ie.doubleclick.net/activity;src=1303434;met=1;v=1;pid=29126583;aid=206773827;ko =0;cid=27818291;rid=27836170;rv=1;&timestamp=4138275;eid1=9;ecn1=1;etm1=0; http://www.pprune.org/ http://www.pprune.org/ http://ad.ie.doubleclick.net/ad/N1397.eircom.netIRE/B3064397;sz=250x250;ord=1219858810265? http://ads.eircom.net/IMPCNT/ccid=15171/acc_random=1219858810265/site=eircom/area=news/aamsz=250x250/pos=14 http://ads.eircom.net/hserver/key=/site=eircom/area=news/aamsz=250x250/pos=14 (http://ads.eircom.net/adclick/key=/site=eircom/area=news/aamsz=250x250/pos=14)
However, Cork Airport rejected Ryanair's claim and said the airline had, in fact, reneged on its commitment to a discount scheme that operates on a sliding scale.
Ryanair's daily flight from Cork to East Midlands will end on October 2nd while the daily service to Glasgow (Prestwick) will close two days later.
The route cancellations are expected to result in a loss of 100,000 passengers at Cork this winter, equivalent to a 6 per cent drop in traffic using Cork Airport.
Ryanair said the decline in passenger traffic will result in up to 200 local jobs being lost.
“We regret that we have to close these two daily routes to/from Cork. However, a 20 per cent increase in airport charges on these routes reduces our ability to offer really low fares at a time of higher oil prices and these higher costs will make these two new routes loss-making this winter," said Ryanair chief executive Michael O’Leary.
“The loss of these flights, 200,000 passengers, €20,000,000 in tourism revenue and 200 jobs could have been avoided if Cork Airport had agreed to continue the current low cost agreement on these routes. However, Ryanair can not and will not absorb a 20 per cent increase in costs just to keep loss making routes open at a high cost airport like Cork,” he added.
Rejecting Ryanair's claims, Cork Airport Authority said in a statement: "All airlines are eligible to apply for route support through the Route Support Scheme when introducing new destinations."
"The scheme operates over a five-year period and is based on a sliding scale with a 100 per cent discount in
year one. In the second year of operation, the discount moves to 80 per cent and so on over the five year period of the scheme. The purpose of the sliding scale is to facilitate development of new routes at start-up.
"Having availed of the 100 per cent discount provided by the Route Support Scheme on its East Midlands and Glasgow Prestwick services since December 2007, Ryanair has today reneged on its commitment to the Route Support Scheme."
The airport body said this scheme was "a fully transparent system available to all airlines in order to support and facilitate route development".
Cork aren't raiseing fee's by 20% it's part of a 5 year deal , year 1 free, year 2 20% of the normal rate etc....

positive
27th Aug 2008, 19:56
If thats all Ryanair can do for Cork airport they might be better off without them in the longer term it seems to be their usual bully boy tactics which they have already tried in Dublin and lost.I hope the CAA attract some new services in spite of Ryanair's Bull**** press reports.

The Real Slim Shady
28th Aug 2008, 09:20
Market forces: supply and demand etc.

If Cork wants services and therefore passengers, revenue and jobs - not just at the airport but within the local economy - they have to compete with all the other European airports who are desperate for Ryanair services.

The aircraft will be deployed on routes where the airport authority has a more enlightened perspective and can see the benefits of fiscal support.

Thatcherism in action :D

transmagnificat
28th Aug 2008, 09:42
In some respects, Ryanair are really pathetic.
When they started the two routes from Cork, they knew the rules.
Now, like a spoilt child, they are sulking.
MOL's figures for passengers, loss etc. beggar belief.

840
28th Aug 2008, 10:05
Would it be that beneficial to offer Ryanair a great package?

Shannon did that and now it has no short-haul flights by any airline other than Ryanair, apart from a single Air France service. Quite frankly, Ryanair has Shannon Airport by the balls.

Cork treats all carriers equally and gets served by 7 short-haul airlines other than Ryanair.

The Real Slim Shady
28th Aug 2008, 11:50
bmi rejected Shannon's approach for a service to LHR because the LHR slot was more valuable to them for other services. Market forces, nothing to do with Ryanair.

Aer Lingus pulled out in a hissy fit because they had to continue to operate their long haul through Shannon when they wanted to drop it completely. Nothing to do with Ryanair.

FlyBe pulled off the Shannon - BHX route long time before Ryanair set up the BHX base. Nothing to do with Ryanair.

ryan2000
28th Aug 2008, 11:53
Heard Cawley on 96FM this morning trying to explain this decision to his fellow Corkonians.

Did they not read the new routes incentive scheme before they signed up for the new Cork Routes? Zero Charges in year one, 80 discount in year 2. It couldn't be clearer.

Ryanair would want to realise that Cork is not Shannon. It's run like a business and the management there are not going to be bullied by any one carrier.

The Aerlingus operation there is first class and would probably be expanded if Ryanair decided to pull out of Cork completely.

Aer Arann, BMI Baby, Wizz and Jet 2 and dare I say it Easy Jet are all capable of filling the void should Ryanair decide to leave.

fivejuliet
28th Aug 2008, 15:07
840 you are misinformed, SNN-CDG is thrice daily on weekends and twice daily on weekdays

What are these seven carriers?

Aer Lingus, Ryanair, Wizzair, Jet2, Aer Arann and BMIbaby, that makes five. Skyeurope are pulling out

en2r
28th Aug 2008, 15:19
What are these seven carriers?

Aer Lingus, Ryanair, Wizzair, Jet2, Aer Arann and BMIbaby, that makes five. Skyeurope are pulling out
Air Southwest fly from Cork to Plymouth and Newquay
Did they not read the new routes incentive scheme before they signed up for the new Cork Routes? Zero Charges in year one, 80 discount in year 2. It couldn't be clearer.
MOL seems to have selective amnesia. The rules of the Route Support Scheme are up on the Cork Airport Website. Perhaps MOL should read them!

The Real Slim Shady
28th Aug 2008, 15:46
And the RSS isn't negotiable given the downturn in the economy and the increase in fuel prices???

LEEDS APPROACH
28th Aug 2008, 15:57
Playing devil's advocate here but perhaps MOL did know all about the rules of the route support scheme. This could be the perfect opportunity for him to shuffle a few routes around and get zero charges on the first year of a new route. For example the EMA route could be switched to LBA. Low cost airlines are going to look at every possible way to avoid costs especially in the current economic climate. The trouble with sliding scale route incentive schemes is that they become less attractive as time goes by. It all depends on the exact agreement signed by both parties. Although it is annoying it is completely understandable what RYR are doing and of course the outcry by the two apparently discruntled parties (RYR/Cork airport) has just added publicity.

Just my thoughts,

Leeds App.

Tom the Tenor
28th Aug 2008, 16:03
I'd say the relationship between Ryanair and Cork Airport, if not indeed, many Cork people is getting pretty near now to being irrideemable. Maybe, the time is approaching that the kindest thing to do would be to invite Ryanair to quit all their operations in Cork in order that the airline may better plough it's furrow with an airport partner that it would find more amenable?

eu01
28th Aug 2008, 16:44
It probably sounds much better if one says: 'we pull out because the airport authoritity has raised the charges and didn't want to re-negotiate them' and much harder to say 'we quit because even the 80% discount is not enough to keep the route profitable'. The reason? It's just another example of the undesired consequences of the limits of well-known point-to-point system. Good for big centres, not efficient for less-populated areas. Cork (as many other FR airports) has too small population to support more than just a few most important p2p routes. The further growth of a low-cost traffic can be sustained only by the acceptance of some connecting flights. It should finally be understood, the earlier the better.

ryan2000
28th Aug 2008, 17:14
Looks as if FR are losing the PR battle on this one as journalist have been looking behind the headlines and asking the hard questions all day.

It's a pity the CAA doesn't put forward a spokesman with their side of the story.

The fact that EI and BMI didn't budge from ORK BHX and RE stayed on ORK EDI must also have affected FR's performance on the two routes.

A change to see Ryanair blinking first!

Skipness One Echo
28th Aug 2008, 20:36
THREE YEARS in employment and a command at 27???? What the F***????? Surely that can't be right (!)

Glasgow Prestwick Airport (http://www.gpia.co.uk/general/newsItem.asp?NewsItemID=326)

EI-BUD
28th Aug 2008, 21:56
So MOL in the interest of Ryanair for profit and loss sake and some publicity decided to axe PIK and EMA because he wasnt getting an extention of the favourable terms of ZERO in year 1. Well if he is so concerned about his airline and wants to act in a prudent manner and in the interest of shareholders why does he not axe Dublin/Cork? No he will continue to allow the airline to lose millions on this sector in the name of putting Aer Arann out of business. It's not right and there should be some intervention by competition authority. The government will be looking back in a few years when we have 1 airline serving Ireland and we will only have 1 airline as Ryanair will own everything. This is not good.

I hope Cork Airport dont bow down to MOLs demands,and what's more lets hope Aer Arann open a daily Glasgow Cork route we then would see where Ryanair would stand then on the subject...

N by NW
28th Aug 2008, 22:53
Don't think CAA are losing the PR battle.

It has come across quite clearly on the various threads here and in the press that FR's allegation for the withdrawal of routes because of an increase of 20% in airport charges was false. Rather FR had not read the big print of ORK's route incentive scheme.

I note from the local press in Cork today that FR attempted to change tack and tried to lay the blame not on ORK's route incentive scheme but on the fact that ORK was not independent from the DAA and therefore not free to set its own airport charges.

Not sure about the soundness of this argument. In any event this was a belated attempt to remedy a PR blunder in Cork.

HON
28th Aug 2008, 22:57
Have FR paid the BAA bill yet?

peter we
29th Aug 2008, 10:38
Market forces: supply and demand etc.

If Cork wants services and therefore passengers, revenue and jobs - not just at the airport but within the local economy - they have to compete with all the other European airports who are desperate for Ryanair services.

The aircraft will be deployed on routes where the airport authority has a more enlightened perspective and can see the benefits of fiscal support.

Thatcherism in action

Another way to look at is that there is only one Cork airport, but LCC's are ten a penny. If Ryanair can't provide the service another airline will.

eu01
29th Aug 2008, 18:42
The quote from an other topic:


MOL's one weak spot is his love for all things Irish over business logic.
A brief but very accurate opinion, having in mind all his unnecessary and costly battles on the domestic ground... :hmm:

cml387
29th Aug 2008, 18:46
Quote:

"MO'L's one weak spot is his love for all things Irish over business logic."

Axing routes in Cork?
The Dublin Airport Authority?
The Irish Goverment?
The Irish Congress Of Trade Unions?


Don't think so.

ryan2000
30th Aug 2008, 12:37
Ryanair and Kerry in advanced negotiations for a new Continental Route.

EI-BUD
30th Aug 2008, 13:23
a new continental route amazing...

Liverpool didnt work, was a complete flop. So in a bid to appease Ryanair they are probably offering Ryanair a continental route with no fees at all, so as to stop Ryanair pushing for reduced fees on the Dublin route??

It would have to be a German route to say Dusseldorf (summer only) or Malaga (weekly) or the canaries?

ryan2000
30th Aug 2008, 17:52
Heard it won't be hugely significant in terms of passenger numbers but a new route is always welcome.

anna_list
30th Aug 2008, 22:11
Kerry is an example of Ryanair's (perhaps understandable) Irish-centric view of the world. Would they bother flying there if it were not in Ireland?

For those that have any interest in such things, here are the passenger figures and flown load factors for Ryanair's Kerry routes (assuming B738 on all flights). The usual comments about loads and yields apply.

STN - KIR used by at least 140k pax every year since 2004:
2005 147k pax, 68%
2006 149k pax, 73%
2007 156k pax, 74%
2008 68k pax, 65% (Jan - Jun)

LTN - KIR had a very weak first winter:
2007 3k pax, 42%
2008 17k pax, 57% (Jan - Jun)

LPL - KIR - a bit of a dog
2006-7 18k pax, 53% (Jun 06 to Jan 07)

HHN - KIR - perhaps the most impressive of the lot, especially as critics might describe it as a flight from a field in the middle of nowhere to a field in the middle of nowhere. Seemed to suffer in 2005/6 when HHN-SNN was increased to 3 / 4 times weekly, before being dropped. These days HHN-KIR is daily in Summer and 4x weekly in the Winter.
2004 105k pax, 77%
2005 100k pax, 74%
2006 90k pax, 71%
2007 86k pax, 77%

I presume that now the HHN-KIR route is operated by a KIR based aircraft, this will allow the new route when HHN is reduced for the Winter.
Ryanair will need to be careful with their choice of route - their experiences with HHN to KIR and SNN suggest that they could easily damage existing routes out of Shannon (which wouldn't take much). For this reason, Weeze NRN might not be a great idea. There were rumours about Reus or Rome, but the latter seems unlikely given the slot availability at Rome CIA and the fact that they couldn't make it work from Shannon.

Charlie Roy
30th Aug 2008, 23:45
My money's on Kerry - Girona.

daz211
31st Aug 2008, 08:56
Im thinking PMI.

Ametyst1
31st Aug 2008, 09:33
Don't think Palma, as Ryanair are in a row with the airport over charges hence the reason that all Ryanair services to Palma are suspended for 6 weeks in November and December.

ryan2000
31st Aug 2008, 12:18
Heard that they wanted to operate a flight from from Cork to Turin for the Ski season but that the CAA wouldn't give them marketing support.

Tom the Tenor
31st Aug 2008, 18:52
Whilst not yet aquiting themselves in much overall glory the Cork Airport Authority's unwillingness to offer Ryanair any incentive support for a proposed ski flight to Turin and this week's bold decision to stand up to Mr O'Leary in the light of the airline's announcement of the pulling of EMA and PIK routes in the face of such outlandish comment against Cork is to be commended and has done more for the credibility of the Cork Airport Authority than anything else has done to date. Isn't it bizarre how things turn out - MO'L pulls two routes from Cork and the capital of the CAA goes up! Yes, Ryanair have won the battle on this one but this has weakened the the company overall in Cork and the day is now look forwarded to when there are no longer any Ryanair aeroplanes left in Cork. May that day come sooner rather than later.

Steviec9
1st Sep 2008, 13:35
Another Ryanair ploy to be aware of: I booked a number of 'online checkin' tickets before 3 June 2008, so they still included free priority boarding under the T&C's at that time. On printing the Check N'Go boarding pass this morning, no mention of priority boarding. Not a huge problem and I have no intention of (a) buying priority boarding or (b) calling Ryanair at Lord knows how much per minute to query it.

Others may want/need to be aware of this.

eu01
1st Sep 2008, 19:20
As I have just written in the Easyjet topic
Easyjet has announced it is to reduce the fees it levies on bookings made through the global distribution systems.
In contrast to the recent action taken by Ryanair to cancel bookings made by travel agencies through screen scraping, Easyjet is providing an alternative legitimate booking channel for business travel agencies, while maintaining a firm stance against unlicensed screen scraping. Most screen scraping systems are voluntarily switching off screen scraping to move to the Application Programming Interface (API) channel. Having direct connections to Easyjet’s fares (through API) the travel management companies are able to display them in their own booking environment.

While EZY is looking for compromises, Ryanair is not. Interestingly, while the easyjet.com site has been working very smoothly, ryanair.com struggles constantly to cope with its basic tasks. Even though some screenscrapers supposedly gave up, the site has been very slow today... again and again. These system problems are still waiting to be fully acknowledged by the carrier, who prefers to scapegoat others instead.

PPRuNe Pop
1st Sep 2008, 19:33
MOL was quite bullish on ITV's Tonight programme.

On the question of fuel costs, which he says, will pass £1.3bn next year, he will NOT cause any fuel surcharges. "Not today, not tomorrow not ever." He also expects to break even next year.

For sure, he is no fool.

PPP

Jet22
1st Sep 2008, 20:09
I watched that to. A very intresting programme and i have to :D Michael for not answering soo stupid questions such as
'which airlines will go bust in the next year' to which he replied
'i can not predict that, a large airline can go bust, a small one can that is just unpredictable' or something of that.

ryan2000
1st Sep 2008, 22:09
The potential new Ryanair route from Kerry is a once weekly flight to a French City.

anna_list
1st Sep 2008, 22:12
There's been a lot written about the dropping of these two routes here and on the Cork thread. Here are some stats:

ORK - EMA: first half of 2008: 36k pax, Average flown LF: 57%. The route has one of the worst LFs from the EMA base.

In addition, as has been pointed out earlier, the combined effect of this route and BHX - SNN (35k pax, LF: 59%) has had a dramatic impact on EMA - SNN (29k pax, LF 47%, collapsing from 48.5k pax and an LF of 71% for the same period last year and now the worst LF from EMA).

It would appear that there simply isn't enough traffic to sustain these three routes plus EI/WW on BHX-ORK.

ORK - PIK: first half of 2008: 37k pax, Average flown LF: 54%. The route has worst LF from the PIK base. And the second worst? By some strange coincidence, the 2nd worst is PIK - SNN (35k pax, 54% LF), which was already weak (39k pax and 58% LF for the first half of last year).

As is happening on an increasing number of routes, FR's biggest competitor is themselves. Some overlapping markets are not large enough.

Personally, with stats like these, I can't imagine that carriers will be queueing up to replace services on these routes.

EI-BUD
1st Sep 2008, 22:39
anna_list

Always good to read your posts as they always do make alot of sense! Surely Glasgow would warrant an ATR42 daily? I thought that Aer Arann would jump at a chance to operate Glasgow.

Shannon/Prestwick has always been quite low on the boardings in the past. I think alot of these services out of Shannon are similar with the exception of the London routes.

I think that we will see Ryanair dropping some Shannon routes in the very near future, I simply dont believe that a 5 strong (or is it 4) fleet is warranted at Shannon for short hauld flights? What do you think?

However, as has been stated on here, SAA will have to agree to Ryanair's terms?

AMS flyer
2nd Sep 2008, 07:01
CUF-BHX
CUF-DUB
CUF-STN

GNB-BHX
GNB-BRS
GNB-EDI
GNB-KIR

KLU-GSE
KLU-NYO

STN-LDE (!)

TRN-BOH
TRN-EDI
TRN-EMA
TRN-LPL
TRN-PIK
TRN-SNN

source: theairdb.com

Pilotdom
2nd Sep 2008, 07:29
When will summer 09 be on sale?