CHC MCA Transition [Archive]

Hiller

3rd May 2007, 19:19

Lads and Lasses

It has gone very quiet about the Transition, and I know somewhere in here there is a thread but couldn't find it.
So, what is/are the latest facts/rumours as to how the transition is going?
The last rumour that I heard is that C(K)arl Taylor who used to work for the MCA on the Aviation side is now in the employment of CHC.
Hmmm

Hiller

3D CAM

4th May 2007, 12:46

Stornoway is due to transfer July 1st. S92 on contract 1st. October???
Sumburgh should follow on straight after with the same three month time scale. That is assuming that there is anyone left from the transition team after Stornoway??
Lee on Solent next, again three months timescale. Then after they get their AW139's??????????...
Portland then follows with their sole 139!!
According to CHC at least.

Hiller

4th May 2007, 19:10

3D CAM
Are you saying that none of the Bristow personnel from Stornoway are joining CHC? With all the question marks you seem to think that CHC will not be able to man this contract.
H

mrwellington

4th May 2007, 21:10

The human resent department will make sure of that. Bristow is playing this one very nicely.

332mistress

5th May 2007, 08:52

How is Bristow playing this very nicely:confused:

If CHC is having difficulty manning this contract - which from what I hear it isn't, it will just increase any remuneration to attract pilots. After all it is always Bristow and Bond who follow the lead given by CHC pilots - it is rare for Bristow and unknown for Bond pilots to put there necks on the line to get better T+ Cs:E

I believe that the guys manning the transition team have not been guaranteed positions on the flights when the transition S61 to S92/AW139 is complete so CHC can't be that short of pilots.

332M

Night Watchman

5th May 2007, 13:36

After all it is always Bristow and Bond who follow the lead given by CHC

Absolutely right, which is why it's CHC who are taking over the contract and not not anyone else... The other two are constantly paying catch up.

A senior manager in Bristow said recently he "couldn't understand why employees weren't staying with Bristow when we're almost paying the same as CHC." Go figure. :ugh:

Bristow have offered employees a retainer worth about £2800 if they stay with them whereas CHC have offered an allowance, which to some, is worth £50,000 over the 5 year contract! The others will be no worse off than with Bristow.

I believe that the guys manning the transition team have not been guaranteed positions on the flights when the transition S61 to S92/AW139 is complete so CHC can't be that short of pilots.

I think you'll find they have been guaranteed positions somewhere within CHC Europe!:hmm:

rotor-rooter

5th May 2007, 14:59

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070504.REDGE04/TPStory/Business

As I understand it, the order went out this week, for all departments and all divisions, to slash all costs and expenses in order to improve the bottom line! The reason may be easier to understand now!

Maybe the impact of these labour costs may not be able to remain hidden within the overall value of the contracts if the analysts know where to look?

Where is all the money going? Is it on new equipment and parts, or is it on people? Either way, it should certainly improve the availability and utilization of the aircraft - both of which should be demonstrated by the high level of parts availability and support which is presumably where all the money is going?

Brilliant Stuff

5th May 2007, 16:42

Thats because they are wasting money left right and centre due to short term planning.:(

mrwellington

5th May 2007, 18:31

332m

Bristow must be doing something right, be that pay/promises/pensions etc. since only 2 pilots moved over.....rumour ofcourse:}

bondu

5th May 2007, 19:31

Nightwatchman posted:

"A senior manager in Bristow said recently he "couldn't understand why employees weren't staying with Bristow when we're almost paying the same as CHC." Go figure.

I think you will find that Bristow pay scales are now ahead of CHC Scotia! And will remain so when the next increase is added in September.

The Equal Time roster starts on 1st June: yes, I know its two years later than CHC, but many said it would never, ever happen at Bristow!

I don't know who the 'senior manager' is/was, but there have been major changes in the management team at Bristow during the last three weeks. The new team have already shown a better grip on reality than the previous incumbents!

bondu

332mistress

5th May 2007, 19:54

Bondu

Bristow's pay scales may be slightly higher than Scotias but the pilots there have done nothing to gain that - they relied on the boys in Scotia to fight the fight and then just piggy backed on their agreement. Bristow had to react as they knew if they didn't they would lose pilots to Scotia. It is the same with the even time roster.

Pilots - especially experienced captains are in a commanding position at the moment as all the companies are short so take the "courage" pill and stick out for better conditions.

The oil companies are awash with money - they just don't like passing it down to their contractors:{

332M

3D CAM

5th May 2007, 20:01

H
I am not saying anything, this is a rumour network afterall! But do not be surprised at what may happen.
Nightwatchman.
Where did you get the Bristow £2800 from?
The CHC figure is correct. But only for the northern bases, I wonder why?

The transition team were supposed to be in Stornoway by now for local area famil. This I believe was for three months starting in April. However it would now appear that June 1st. is when to expect them. One month famil. is now all that is required! Hmmm!?
Where are the S92's?
How is the AW139 that is being heavily modified for this contract coming along? Longer nose, dual hoist, auto-hover etc. etc.
No info at all about this.

bondu

8th May 2007, 09:51

332
You are quite correct in your statement that Bristow 'piggy-backed' Scotia for the pay deal in 2001, the 'famous' benchmarking deal. However, the last pay round was in 2005, and the two deals were completely separate and different. CHC tied themselves into a five year deal, while Bristow stuck to a three year deal. The Bristow deal brought salary up to above CHC scales and retained the top four scales: CHC lost the top four scales if I remember correctly. The Bristow deal also included tying 'professional allowances' (training pay, dual rating, winch quals etc) to year 10 Captain's scale, thus allowing the allowances to increase annually. CHC may have something similar, but this was a first for Bristow. Overall, the Bristow 2005 deal covered more than ten different issues, all with success.
As the Bristow deal was for only three years, they will back at the table two years before CHC Scotia. Depending on the outcome of those negotiations, will CHC Scotia be 'piggy-backing' on the Bristow deal when they start their negotiations? They would be foolish not to do so!
As for "losing pilots to Scotia": why would a year 10 captain at Bristow leave to join Scotia to become a year 4 SFO? Or at best, a year 5 captain? If Scotia were offering a direct crossover, year 10 for year 10, then there could be some movement. Even if Scotia captains earned £1000 a year more, a year 10 Bristow captain would have to work many years to make up the difference if he could only join as a year 5. Not to mention seniority and the possiblilty of redundancy in the future? So why bother?
Both companies have some very good aspects to their terms and conditions: both have some bad ones. And of course there is always Bond Offshore!
Lets face it, the grass isn't always greener on the other side!

bondu

(My apologies for the thread creep!!)

Droopystop

10th May 2007, 10:13

The oil companies are awash with money - they just don't like passing it down to their contractors

No, they are very good at hanging onto what they have - just because they are making loads, doesn't mean to say they should pass it on. What the helicopter companies should be doing is negotiating harder and putting their prices up. It is the competitive tendering and the desperation to have work even at the tightest margins which is what you really should be complaining about. That is why Bond is back in the North Sea, that is why CHC is having high level financial woes and that is why Bristow's are tight with wages.

Believe it or not, oil companies are having a hard time at the moment - their operating costs have doubled in the last couple of years, the cost of drilling rigs has gone through the roof and construction capacity is tight (read maxed out). Developing fields has never been more expensive. With everyone being cost concious, it is no wonder that oil companies are being tight, despite the high price of oil. Bear in mind that a vast majority of the oil reserves globally are government owned and with oil being found in increasingly volatile poitical arenas, the oil majors are not going to hang their hats on $30/bbl let alone $65/bbl.

Sorry for thread creep.

How is Bristow playing this very nicely:confused:
And CHC would be playing it differently if the roles were reversed?

pitchlink

10th May 2007, 20:14

When comparing T & Cs of all the major operators, am I not right in saying that CHC UK is the only one still running any kind of defined benefit pension scheme. My recollection is that those guys at Bristow had theirs closed down and are now on a money purchase type scheme........saving the company heaps of money which is being trickled back by means of a slightly higher salary. I know which side of the fence I would prefer to be sitting!!!!!

bondu

11th May 2007, 09:42

pitchlink
You are correct about the pensions situation. However, Bristow still have a number pilots with a final salary scheme, abeit now closed. This scheme still costs the company a lot of money to keep it up to MFR standards. But you are right, they save money by the rest of the pilots only having a DC scheme and that hurts!!
To counter that, the Bristow loss of licence scheme is far better than CHC Scotia's and the detachment allowance negotiated in 2005 is something CHC Scotia don't have at all.
As I said earlier, all three companies have some good bits and some bad bits! It all comes down to what you want and what you are comfortable with.
bondu

heli1

11th May 2007, 10:52

We do seem to have lost the thread....The aircraft was supposed to arrive in Aberdeen by 15th April to meet the schedule so is now a month behind.Also I hear that MCA wants it at St Mawgan next month for a SAR conference so deployment could be even later.
What happens if Bristow pull the rug meantime ??

Hilife

11th May 2007, 11:43

What happens if Bristow pull the rug meantime?

I don’t think this would go down too well with the MCA.

Hiller

11th May 2007, 21:50

Hilife
Perhaps it also does not go down too well that Carl Taylor left the MCA to join CHC so soon after the award of the interim SAR contract.
Hiller

Droopystop

11th May 2007, 23:16

What happens if Bristow pull the rug meantime ??

What do you mean? I assume Bristow's are contracted until a certain date, at which stage (and only then) will Bristow be able to "pull the rug", which isn't pulling the rug at all, it is saying that's our rug and since you are not paying for it any more, we'll take it home thankyou very much. It is up to CHC to ensure they have a replacement rug ready to take over on the forementioned date.

rotor-rooter

12th May 2007, 04:19

Apparently there is now serious concern within CHC on the ability to meet the contractual requirements as they are reliant upon retaining the Bristow crews to staff the operations. The concern continues as they realise that assimilating strangers (and former competitors) into the system is hardly grounds to build a cohesive operational team! If the crews don't move, maybe a bunch of "Europeans" will meet the requirments - but the clock is ticking!

The second issue is the availability of operationally equipped aircraft. Looks like there may be S61's in operation for a while yet!

And the Aberdeen scuttlebutt has it that all the redundant MCA equipment is being redeployed and would not be available to extend beyond the original contract expiration without a significant contractual commitment from someone. :confused:

Might make for some very interesting viewing! :uhoh:

heli1

15th May 2007, 10:35

I have heard that rumour too,hence my comment earlier about what happens if Bristow don't agree to extend their contract (i.e. "pull the rug" Droopy Stops ).
CHC says it has other S61Ns it can bring in with SAR equipment...really ????

shetlander

15th May 2007, 14:37

Well CHC could always drag some of the S-61N's from Ireland.
As you are well aware they hold the SAR contract there.
And am sure they have a few 61N'S stored away somewhere that they could re-roll for SAR ops
Cheers,
Shetlander:cool:

rotor-rooter

15th May 2007, 18:55

Who owns the CHC S61's in Ireland on the SAR contracts?

3D CAM

15th May 2007, 19:28

Hang on a minute!!!
The M.C.A. contract is for 4xS92's up north and 3xAW139's down south, (remember them.. AW139's. They seem to have been forgotten in this discussion.) not S61's! Anywhere!!! To start with Stornoway on October 31st. The S61's are only supposed to be operated for three months while the crews/engineers who TUPE across are trained on their respective new types.
I am sure that Bristow would be more than happy to let CHC have their(BHL) S61's. At a price!!
But having said that, would Bristow be within their rights to call foul if CHC cannot fulfil the new contract? ie. go for a rebid.

Scotsheli

15th May 2007, 19:52

...I suggest that only the MCA could cry foul and unless the sponsons really fall off they probably won't do that.

Whilst interest is sure growing as to how this whole thing is going to play out, I think we best wait and see how CHC actually do before slating them too much - there is a lot at stake for them here and i'm sure that no stone will be left unturned to try and make this work, at (almost) whatever cost.

That said, the finger must be tracking slowly towards the "smug mode" button at Bristows...and if memory serves correctly Bristow do indeed also own some hardware in disguise in Ireland...

Mr.Challenger

15th May 2007, 21:04

rotor-rooter
[The concern continues as they realise that assimilating strangers (and former competitors) into the system is hardly grounds to build a cohesive operational team! If the crews don't move, maybe a bunch of Europeans will meet the requirments - but the clock is ticking!]

heli1 [I have heard that rumour too,]

So what rumours did you hear then exactly...:confused:

heli1

15th May 2007, 21:18

Mr Challeger........rumours that Bristow have work for the S61s elewhere...in the GOM specifically or a customer in the US ready to buy the aircraft.

332mistress

15th May 2007, 21:20

Like all contracts this one will have its teething problems. I am sure CHC will have in place penalty clauses with both Sikorsky and Augusta/Westland if they don't deliver a/c on time and MCA has operated helicopters long enough to know what can go wrong which is outside the control of the supplier.

As for crews they can always be found - it may cost CHC more than they want to pay but they will find them. Pilots are a mercenary bunch and increased pay will always drag some pilots into the CHC net:E

Bristows I am sure will also help out as it would not be in their interest to upset MCA by behaving in a petulant manner by taking their "ball" away to play somewhere else.

332M

Jingle Bells

15th May 2007, 22:34

"As for crews they can always be found - it may cost CHC more than they want to pay but they will find them. Pilots are a mercenary bunch and increased pay will always drag some pilots into the CHC net:E"

Am I right in thinking you need crewmen, engineers etc to run a SAR operation, just a minor observation............:ok:

Sailor Vee

16th May 2007, 08:20

flungdungThey have 4 bases and 6 S61N's. Wrong about the number of airframes, currently 7 (5 AWSAR and 2 LIMSAR).
(which last time I heard were only LIMSAR i.e no SN501 autopilot and therefore day only)Also wrong, LIMSAR does not equal day only, just some restrictions on night operations and IFR work, dependant on any number of factors.

Sailor Vee

16th May 2007, 17:10

I personally would not consider night decks in a LIMSAR aircraft on a dark night.You are not alone in that thought!
my quotedependant on any number of factors
I gather that we were to go to 5 AWSAR and 1 LIMSAR giving AWSAR back up for all bases , but what is going to happen to the other LIMSAR, not owned by CHC BTW, is anyone's guess!!!!:confused:

332mistress

16th May 2007, 22:13

Jingle Bells

"Am I right in thinking you need crewmen, engineers etc to run a SAR operation, just a minor observation"

you are absolutely right however this is Pprune where the second p is for pilot:ok:

332M

Wiretensioner

17th May 2007, 12:09

Typical reply from a Petulant pilot. As always the thread is reduced to pilots and money. No-one else is fit to walk on this earth or have an opinion.:cool:

Tractor_Driver

17th May 2007, 13:44

Wiretensioner,

to run a SAR operation you need:

Management
Pilots
Winch ops
Winchmen
Engineers
Labourers
Radio operaters
Secretaries
Cleaners
Caterers
Postmen
and uncle Tom Cobley and all.

To complain that someone on a P Pilots RUNE is being petulant by having pilots as his main frame of reference is IMHO a little perverse.

DanglyBob

17th May 2007, 14:15

You forgot someone....

Casualties......

:}

Sailor Vee

17th May 2007, 17:21

to run a SAR operation you need:

Radio operaters
Secretaries
Caterers
Postmen

Which planet are you living on? :uhoh:

Maybe Management should be included in the above? :E

332mistress

17th May 2007, 19:42

Wiretensioner and Flungdung

I am sorry that I have disturbed the chips on your shoulders but this is a Pilot's rumour network and of course pilot's views will form the main emphasis of any thread. I think that the term Petulant Pilot shows your true colours and I wouldn't want you in my crew as I think you will probably have serious CRM issues.

I have the utmost respect for the guys who go down on the wire and literally put their lives in my hands and most of these fine people have formed the core of an excellent crew. There are, always, however those who do not fit in and perhaps we have 2 cases here.

I have no problem with non-pilot's commenting on any web site but it is a bit rich criticising pilots for talking about pilot jobs on a pilot's rumour network.

332M

[email protected]

17th May 2007, 19:52

One of the transition teams is being trained at Waterford on the S61 as we speak, I saw them there yesterday (strangely all but one ex-military:) ).
Thanks for hosting us chaps - Guinness really does taste better in Ireland:)

Night Watchman

17th May 2007, 19:55

Sailor Vee,

I don't know where you work but on the MCA units you can't move for postmen and caterers - they're everywhere!!! :rolleyes:

And the good news is that you get your supper delivered! ;)

NW

Night Watchman

17th May 2007, 20:03

(strangely all but one ex-military:) )

Which makes them all civilian!!! :):):):):)

SARREMF

17th May 2007, 22:28

Ladies and Gents,

i have said this before and I'll say it again. Calm down, its only a commercial

CHC will deliver a SAR service of that I am sure. They are putting in place new technology aircraft which is bound to have the odd issue. Which will get sorted eventually.

Lets face it, they are hardly likely to say " OK its too hard we give up!" They and the team they have recruited will unite and sort it.

As for Bristows, you are right, they are hardly likely to take their ball away when they are in competative dialogue with the SAR-H IPT. That just wouldn't be friendly!

Lets face it, a year from now we will wonder what all the fuss was about! I know this is arumour network but the odd moan from an individual is hardly cause to say the entire thing is collapsing!

No I dont work for CHC or Bristows.

Crabb - all military become civilians eventually.

angelonawire

17th May 2007, 23:23

You are obviously not a SAR driver, anyone with such an arrogant perspective as "putting their lives in MY HANDS" would soon be recognised and rapidly disposed of.

It may be named pprune, however, when discussing SAR, pilots are not generally the definitive oracle on the subject.

SAR is entirely a team effort and there is no room for conceipted Drivers who believe themselves to be above other members of the team. People that have that attitude in this environment tend to induce poor CRM, which in turn usually causes accidents.:ouch: :}

Good Luck to CHC

Wiretensioner

18th May 2007, 07:33

Nicely put Angel. (Have you been tango'ed recently)

Mistress

Obviously we seem to have hit a nerve here. My view is that you are not a SAR pilot and seem to have little idea of real crew co-operation. In SAR it goes way beyond two guys sitting up the front of the aircraft. If anyone on the crew is not happy with a situation he says so and it gets acted upon. My life on the wire is not in the hands of the pilot. It's in the hands of all the crew.

angelonawire

18th May 2007, 08:15

Ouch, are you implying that I have vanity issues:cool:

It is all natural, the climate in shetland is positively tropical!!:}

Tractor_Driver

18th May 2007, 10:09

Nice to see that you are still about and that time has not mellowed you.

"SAR driver[s] ... rapidly disposed of"

How well you encompass all that is best in multi-crew co-operation.

Return to sender

18th May 2007, 11:29

"SAR driver[s] ... rapidly disposed of"
How well you encompass all that is best in multi-crew co-operation.
Yes, but Angelonawire is the man whose CRM skills are such that: -

he once said on this forum that "do remember that a vast majority of the actual skill and danger aspect is taken on by the back seat, and any winchop worth his salt could keep a monkey hovering over a moving deck.... " which was then read by every pilot he flew with; :ugh:

and who after an incident couldn't sit down and discuss it as a crew but instead carried out a vindictive public attack on the Captain on PPRUNE, threatened anyone who disagreed with him before deleting all his posts! Which when you consider the first remark probably wasn't the Captains fault because he was just the unskilled monkey being manipulated by the winch op!

So it’s a bit rich for him to be criticising CRM when he clearly lacks it himself! :=

332mistress

18th May 2007, 11:39

I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest of rear crew angst by merely stating that this is a pilot's rumour network and it is only natural that pilots look at any thread from their perspective.

I didn't start the name-calling that came from Wiretensioner and Flungdung. The remark about your life in my hands is perfectly true as I think it was angelonawire who had a dramatic incident due to pilot inputs, but I do not think of myself as the god in the front as those with chips on their shoulders seem to think. SAR is a whole crew evolution and any weakness in the composition of the crew can be disastrous.

I couldn't position the winchman without the accurate patter from the winchop and he couldn't position the winchman without accurate and precise flying from me. The winchman relies on his safety by trusting the 2 of us. The casualty’s life depends on the bravery of the winchman. It is a true crew operation. Which is why I am surprised at the remarks made by some rearcrew who seem to have issues that would have CRM consequences if allowed to come to light during SAROPs.

For info I may not be an active SAR pilot now but I did do 10yrs Seaking SAR (B CAT) with many fine rearcrew who didn't have the anti-pilot views that seem to be held by some on here.

332M

angelonawire

18th May 2007, 11:47

I shall take the bait on this, nicely regurgitated, your memory is nearly as good as my wife's!,

The entire lack of CRM was the catalyst for the incident as you describe.

And the reason for me airing my dirty laundry on prune was also a product of poor CRM, autocratic captains and company managers burying their heads in the sand.

I think this matter was discussed quite enough in the past and would be rather dis-tastefull to start bringing it to the forefront again, Hopefully CHC with some fresh new blood, new and up to date procedures, CRM skills and a distinct lack of cobwebs and odour of urine, may be a breath of fresh Air :eek:

SARowl

18th May 2007, 12:03

Dear All,
Just to clear up a few points.
1. All present Bristow/MCA Helo Units (excepting 12 hour only Portland) have 24 staff, comprising:-
8 x pilots
8 x crewmen
7 x engineers
1 x secretary
1 x labourer/odd job man
Cleaning is by contractor.
2. There are four SAR/LN450 S61s (one each base) plus two 'standard' S61s as spares. One spare is at Lee, the other is in Sumburgh. Because of maintenance requirements the spare aircraft are regularly on line with little diminution of the proffered service. Crews regularly train - yes, even over decks on pitch black nights - on the spare aircraft to maintain proficiency.

Hiller

18th May 2007, 21:39

angelonawire
Reading your last, I assume that you are joining CHC. With your attitude you could cost CHC personnel, and if I were in your environment then you would be the last person that I would want to work for, or indeed to admit to know.
Hiller

[email protected]

19th May 2007, 06:30

SAROwl - do you mean to imply in your post that the Portland crews don't train because they don't have a spare? That's the way it reads.:)

Are your S61s a similar spec to the CHC SAR ones in Ireland? By that I mean that their SAR aircraft is SN501 fully autopilot equipped but that their spare is likely to be a non-autohover, non doppler aircraft (standard S61?).

If yours are of the same spec then you cannot say that there is 'little diminution of service' when transferring to the spare, especially for night over water work.

Tractor_Driver

19th May 2007, 07:22

Crab,

I have re-read Owl's post and see nothing that implies no training at Portland. (by implication, neither Portland or Stornaway can train regularly on a limsar A/C as they don't have one on site).

I agree with you that 'little diminution of service' might be overstating the case a bit, because otherwise there would be little point in fully equipped A/C.

However, if, as I suspect, this is an opening salvo in another round of MilSAR is better than CivSAR, oh no it's not, oh yes it is, could you save us all a lot of time and just cut-and-paste from one of the previous threads. Thanks.

Sailor Vee

19th May 2007, 09:34

but that their spare is likely to be a non-autohover, non doppler aircraft (standard S61?).
You look at posts but don't READ them then?

Achilles426

19th May 2007, 10:03

"a distinct lack of cobwebs and odour of urine, may be a breath of fresh Air"
It is so nice to see your obvious zeal to berate your former employer and colleagues once more. You really are a little bit bitter and twisted about something.
Perhaps it is time to let us all know just where your vast amount of SAR knowledge and experience comes from. Can you enlighten us please?
Achilles426

Night Watchman

19th May 2007, 11:22

Actually Stornoway, Sumburgh and Lee all have standby aircraft. The only base that doesn't is Portland.

Poor old CRAB is trying once again to start an argument and who can blame him. He doesn't have long to slag off civvy SAR before the new aircraft and contractor start with new equipment, proceedures and full SAR standby aircraft - all of which were effectively chosen by the RAF. So apart from a radar that points behind him all his other arguments are lost!

Never mind.... I'm sure he'll think of something else! ;)

[email protected]

19th May 2007, 19:56

Tractor driver - sarowl wrote-
2. There are four SAR/LN450 S61s (one each base) plus two 'standard' S61s as spares. One spare is at Lee, the other is in Sumburgh. Because of maintenance requirements the spare aircraft are regularly on line with little diminution of the proffered service. Crews regularly train - yes, even over decks on pitch black nights - on the spare aircraft to maintain proficiency.
The last sentence says the crews train on the spare aircraft and the second says that the spares are at Lee and Sumburgh. The smiley after my question means I know what he is saying but that it can be read another way from that which he intended.
Sailor Vee - does a 'standard S61' have a doppler hovermeter, an autohover, both or none? I know what the CHC ones have but not the Bristows ones, that is why I asked the question - duh!
There is no need for another pi88ing contest - I know that as with any skill, those that practise most will be best at it and SAR is no different whether front or rearcrew. Whether this truism will be reflected in the new SAR contract is up to the beancounters.

3D CAM

19th May 2007, 22:20

Crab.
For crying out loud change the tune and read what the posts actually say.
There is a standby machine at Stornoway, Sumburgh and Lee. (Shared with Portland.) All this you well know from previous posts. The standby machines are not LN450 fitted. Training is carried out on the main machine, LN450 fitted, or if that is off line off line for maintenance, then training is carried out on the standby, none LN450, machine.
The only thing that will change when/if CHC take over is that all aircraft, S92 and AW139, (where are they?)will be to the same standard. At least that is what the MCA have been told.

[email protected]

20th May 2007, 06:08

3DCam -stop being precious and read what my post actually says - the smiley was there to indicate that I knew exactly what sarowl meant but that it could be read another way.

Equally, I know that the first standby aircraft at the MCA flights is autohover - my question was whether the spare had a doppler meter which would allow some semblance of night overwater hover or if it was the same as the CHC one which is like a big Wessex in terms of night capability. The reason for mentioning it was sarowls statement that the spare aircraft represented only a small diminution of capability which is not true for night over water work.

Presstransdown

20th May 2007, 11:08

Crab

The UK Coastguard standby SAR cabs do not have doppler/autohover capability and only a single winch.

They have the older intercom and simplex AFCS.

There is no major restriction on capability. Night jobs and/or very bad weather ops are not really a problem provided there is some sort of reference when operating below 45kts.

I do think that both the main and standby cabs are looking a little tired these days

Cheers

Press

Wiretensioner

20th May 2007, 11:16

But not as tired and worn as the shagged out Sea Kings:cool:

[email protected]

20th May 2007, 19:34

Thanks press - that was what I was after, information without insults and abuse:)

Wiretensioner - if the junglies can have the Carson blade upgrade why not our SAR cabs - that and a decent avionics fit on the Mk3 might help eke their life out until 2017. The RCS does make grim reading some days and it's the same things that keep going wrong, aggravated by the number of spares that turn up U/S.

3D CAM

20th May 2007, 20:42

Crab.
"Precious"?? The only person to call me that is my dear old mum. And that was a long time ago!!!

Why would you want to eke out the life of your poor old airframes?? Surely some of them are vintage 1978/79/80ish?(The same as some of the S61's you keep going on about.) If you drag out their lives any longer then where will they work? Harmonisation should be completely up and running well before then! Or have you heard something we should all know about?

However.... I agree with you about Carson blades. If, as was suggested by more than one person who posts on here, they had been fitted to the S61 along with other weightsaving mods. and uprated engines and transmission, in the mid/late eighties (yes that long ago) then perhaps we would not be having all these roundabout discussions!!

U/S spares are not just a Military problem!

jeepys

20th May 2007, 21:18

I think the Carson blades have a 30 knot (ish) start up limit which could be a problem especially when operating on the coasts where winds can often be higher than this. But dont quote me.

Phil Kemp

21st May 2007, 02:15

I think the Carson blades have a 30 knot (ish) start up limit which could be a problem especially when operating on the coasts where winds can often be higher than this. But dont quote me.
Yesterday 20:42

Well, I will quote you.

Where do you come up with this stuff? No source, no reference, no idea - but "I think"!

Have you ever seen a Carson blade, operated a Carson blade, read any of the certification paperwork or a FMS?

If we can't quote you, why bother posting this un-informed nonsense?:rolleyes:

[email protected]

21st May 2007, 05:42

3DCam - 2017 is the official out of service date for the mk3 and 3A Sea kings; even if the 2012 contract leads to full civilianisation, the RAF SAR flights won't be handed over immediately. The process is likely to take a couple of years from what I have been told and is unlikely to start until 2014 to 15 - hence the 2017 OSD.

I would like a new aircraft right now but that ain't gonna happen, shuddering along at 110 kts isn't the way to get to a job quickly.

SARowl

21st May 2007, 15:10

Crab,
I was trying to answer a couple of points with one answer. A previous Poster queried whether we trained at night on a limited capability SAR aircraft, the answer is yes. Although the spare is held at Sumburgh, when Stornoway (or Portland on the south coast) withdraw their aircraft for maintenance they still carry on with the standby aircraft.

Diminution of proffered service - because the MCA contract is maritime SAR a standard S61 can easily winch from most decks. Searches are hard work as everything is manually flown. Cliffs are OK as the landing/search lights are standard. Persons in the water and liferafts at night are inadvisable.

Hiller

21st May 2007, 19:08

Aviators
I asked on my original post about Carl Taylor. It was rumoured that he left the MCA shortly after the interim SAR contract award, for employment with CHC,and apparently had a say in the contract award. This seems to be obviously incorrect as no answers are forthcoming. My apologies if I have offended anyone.
No matter what sphere of aviation you operate in, it does take teamwork. Just try and push back from the terminal without check-in staff, engineers, the tug driver. Not fogetting the refueller!!
H

3D CAM

21st May 2007, 19:45

Hiller.
You are correct with regards to C.T.! Yes. Hmmmmm..... indeed.

Night Watchman

21st May 2007, 20:42

The spare CG S61's are not standard S61's. They do not have the LN400/450 auto hover system but they do have FLIR, additional search lights (they are not standard S61 lighting), additional navigation equipment etc. They're not great and need replacing like the Sea Kings but they're not standard S61’s.

Lets remember that each base will soon have two new identical full SAR S92's or AW139’s (with the exception of Portland which will have one AW139). This is all good news for SAR and should all happen in the next 12 months (allegedly) and this whole debate can then be put in the archives.

Hiller

23rd May 2007, 20:48

With regard to the last post with Portland having just one new AW139, has anybody thought of the pressure this is going to put on the pilots and engineers. With the S61( and not being a dinosaur) you knew after years of learning and experience what was acceptable to go and fly. This will not happen with a new aircraft, especially with no back up. Although other members who have had the opportunity to fly and maintain the new aircraft you certainly do not accept what they think, albeit in their best interest. After all this is a Rescue service and certainly a casualty who becomes a statistic is one that nobody wants. Just because is daylight only IMHO a second aircraft is required.
One last thing, can anybody tell me why Portland are only daylight? My thought is if they were not busy then they would not be there, but they are and must be a terrific resource for the MCA. Perhaps Carl Taylor with his inside knowledge could answer this, or was he one of them trying to close it down a few years ago.
H

cyclic

23rd May 2007, 23:55

Do you ever get the feeling that what is required is not going to happen. A government agency driven by pseudo business ideas led by commercial pressures?

No one is going to come out of this smelling of roses. Bristow must be p*ssing their pants at the goings on. But at the end of the day, Joe public in this country is so apathetic that they can't be bothered to vote, so do you think they care about your precious SAR helicopters? Ask someone from SE2 about SAR. Unless , little Johnny was lost on a lilo (highly unlikely as they would be in the Costas) off Dorset then I don't suppose they would care. They don't care about really important matters, so don't be so presumptuous that they care about you.

Everyone for themselves and dam the rest. Well done, carry on.

3D CAM

24th May 2007, 12:48

Hiller.
Portland is not a daylight only operation!
They are on call from 0900 till 2100, 365 days per year. The aircraft is the same standard as all the other M.C.A. units ie. all weather, fullycoupled, Flir equipped, dual hoist etc.etc. There is no spare aircraft on site, the spare machine at Lee On Solent is used when required. This sad state of affairs came about after the Portland spare aircraft was lost after an in flight engine fire and emergency landing at Poole several years ago while on a job! The M.C.A. would not pay for a replacement, hence, now only one!
The reasons for not being 24hr. are lost in the sands of time but basically it is down to the fact that the R.N. only provided 12hr. cover so the M.C.A. in their wisdom decided to carry on that way. Oh... and they would not fund another 24hr.unit. Money again!
I think that when Portland was under threat of closure, Carl Taylor was not in position with the M.C.A. so I doubt if he would have any idea about it, or anything else come to that! And yes Portland is busy, once in fact, in the not too distant past, the busiest S.A.R. unit in the country after Lossie.
The arrival of the 139 is awaited, and awaited, and awaited. Does anyone have any information at all about this machine?

heli1

24th May 2007, 13:16

According to Helidata AW139s due to enter service March and June 2008 for transition training...fully operational 3 months later...S-61 stand in meantime.

3D CAM

24th May 2007, 15:49

Heli1
Yes, that's what the glossy brochure and C.H.C. say but is there any hard news on the 139 and its development into an all weather SAR machine?
Fully coupled autohover, dual hoist etc.
Also where are the S92's? Is it true that they are still in the U.S.A. waiting for an export license?

Hiller

24th May 2007, 18:19

Cyclic
You are dead right!!
H

Wiretensioner

24th May 2007, 18:47

If you are fed up with the bitching on here go to the SAR Harmanization thread in the military forum and see the standard of bitching on there. Well it's not much better because as always it seems to be the same old characters at it hammer and tongs, my willy is bigger than your willy. GROW UP!:cool:

Juan Smore

25th May 2007, 08:15

Wiretensioner:

Fully agree with your post, well put. When a perfectly reasonable question starts a new thread but contains the three most priclkly letters in rotary wing aviation (S, A & R) you can guarantee the whole thing will invariably degenerate into the now time honoured pi$$ing contest.

Please guys, keep the SAR threads relevant and on track. It's not difficult; after all, the thread creepers all know who they are!