Group syndicate arrangement

[Iwannafly1]

I'm seriously thinking of starting a syndicate up on an aircraft I've found for sale, but I need to find a skeleton syndicate arrangement to adapt for my purposes - quickly!!!!

Does anyone have one which they could send me, or give me a link to, as I don't want to miss the boat (aeroplane)??

[flybymike]

AOPA were a wealth of information and advice in formulating our group agreement ( which is what I assume you are talking about?) some 18 years ago now. Of course they may expect you to join up if indeed you are not already a member, in return for said advice!

[robin]

Let me get this straight.

I take it you have seen the aircraft but have not yet got a group together.

These are some rules on the web

http://www.g-bash.org/About/rules.htm
http://www.pilotfriend.com/articles/shared.htm
http://www.pfa.org.uk/About%20PFA/Flying%20Group%20Rules.pdf

But these are only a start. You will need to work out your own way to perdition.

Most of us feel that rules are something we'd prefer not to have, but they are there for when things go pear-shaped, and that is when they come into their own. I was in a group with rules, but no written ones., esp when it came to leaving the group

When you set up your group, I would guess you already have potential members in mind, so it would be good to negotiate the rules with them, rather than imposing them

[Iwannafly1]

Robin said
Most of us feel that rules are something we'd prefer not to have, but they are there for when things go pear-shaped, and that is when they come into their own. I was in a group with rules, but no written ones., esp when it came to leaving the group

When you set up your group, I would guess you already have potential members in mind, so it would be good to negotiate the rules with them, rather than imposing them

Thanks for the links :ok:

I've got no intention of imposing anything, on anyone - after all, we have a mutual interest in an aeroplane, and we all want to keep it, and ourselves, safe.

I'm just ascertaining what sort arrangements are out there so that something could be put into place quickly - Research !!

Thanks

[robin]

Sorry if it sounded like I was lecturing - it was a hard day, yesterday!!
When I set up my group with some friends of long-standing, we learned the lessons of the previous group (one day the story will be told......) and amended the basic structure to suit ourselves.
There are some particular lessons we found, though.
1) When you and long-standing friends start out togethr, it is like a marriage. We all go in optimistically and fail to allow for little problems.
For example, because we know each other well, we failed to nail the issue of currency tightly enough. Similarly, the issue of accidental damage and who pays.
2) I found a much better approach is to keep the rules fairly short, but have a couple of Annexes to the Rules - a sort of Flying Order section.
In that we nominate the servicing arrangements, the roles and responsibilities and 'officers', the cost structure, the airfield we operate from, check pilots etc, and, more crucially, who we go to for arbitration of disputes (we've chosen the local school's CFI).
So the rules stay stable, and the Annexes are discussed each year at our fairly informal AGMs, usually held at a nice local restaurant.

Whatever you do, and how you do it, the very best of luck :ok:

[IO540]

I've never been in a group but looked at a few shares for sale and checked out the background.

Obviously much depends on intended usage.

To finish one's PPL or to do additional Ratings, one needs a G-reg on a Transport CofA. A G-reg on a Private CofA can be used if you or your spouse own it outright, or if the instructor does not charge for the flight training. An N-reg is a whole can of worms.

If one wants to fly IFR, one needs a group whose members are rather more solvent than average, and the group has a history of getting things (avionics) fixed promptly, without arguments. This factor breaks up a lot of groups; many for-sale shares are from members who are fed up with lack of agreement on maintenance standards, and IFR capability is a common one. As well as obviously needing a reasonable aircraft.

If one wants good access, it's no good getting into a group with say 25 others - unless you are happy to fly weekdays only. I know somebody in a 25-group who does this and has very good access.

You need to get on with the others, so the agreement is (hopefully) not invoked.

But it seems to me that it pays to get it right at the outset, because selling a duff share can take years.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There are a couple of companies that can help you out in this situation. A good dose of common sense is what's required and you do need to think worst case scenarios when it comes to thinking about potential problems.

I have seen a huge amount of groups descend into chaos and bad feeling over the years. Usually because of issues that should never have happened or were actually really minor.

Group ownership is a fantastic thing for those of us without 7 figure salaries, but there are a great deal of potential pitfalls.

If you want any advice on writing agreements, a/c choice or engineering inspections let me know. I can put you in touch with people who can help on all fronts. They aren't free, but they could save you a lot more in the long run.

[foxmoth]

it's no good getting into a group with say 25 others - unless you are happy to fly weekdays only. I know somebody in a 25-group who does this and has very good access.

Just to note that over 20 in a group requires an aircraft under public transport standard as the aircraft cannot then be operated on a group basis but it is effectively hiring it out to the group members.

[IO540]

Sure about that, foxmoth?

You do need a Transport CofA (nowadays, the equivalent maintenance regime actually, but it's a bit of a grey area) to rent, but a Transport CofA plane can have a share group (a syndicate) around it comprising of any number of people. The 5% min shareholding is imposed on the Private CofA case.

Just having > 20 members does not make it a renting group.