Diamond DA50

[VORTIME]

Hey there,

Anyone got any information on the DA50 yet or thoughts on the aircraft?

VT

[soay]

There's some information and pictures on Diamond's web site here (http://www.diamond-air.at/news_detail+M5648af9efbf.html), and some more pictures here (http://aving.net/usa/news/default.asp?mode=read&c_num=45406&C_Code=07&SP_Num=0).

[F900EX]

Its a nice looking machine. Will be interesting to see how it compares to the Columbia 400 / SR22. Plenty of DA40 drivers out there ready to move on to something a bit quicker. I think they are talking about 200kts @ 75%..
http://www.diamond-air.at/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads%2Fpics%2FP1000173.JPG&width=800m&bodyTag=%3Cbody%20style%3D%22background-color%3A%23a3a9ad%22%20bgcolor%3D%22%23a3a9ad%22%20leftmargi n%3D%220%22%20topmargin%3D%220%22%20marginwidth%3D%220%22%20 marginheight%3D%220%22%3E&title=Diamond%20Aircraft%20GmbH&wrap=%3Ca%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B%22%3E%20%7 C%20%3C%2Fa%3E%3Cbr%3E%3Ctable%20align%3D%22right%22%3E%3Ctr %3E%3Ctd%20style%3D%22color%3A%23ffffff%3Bletter-spacing%3A1px%3Bfont-size%3A11px%3Bfont-family%3Averdana%2Carial%2Chelvetica%3B%22%3EDiamond%20Aircr aft%20GmbH%3C%2Ftd%3E%3C%2Ftr%3E%3C%2Ftable%3E&md5=6035360042c372c51f780735259f0ff9

[IO540]

It looks like a DA40-TDI but built for four very large (i.e. average) Americans.

[Say again s l o w l y]

I like the DA40 apart from the fact it is grossly underpowered and has the build quality of the average pedalo.

Handling is good, viz good, access ok, noise levels ok. If the DA50 is just a bigger and badder version, it should do well. I wouldn't mind one. (Though they'd have to make it aerobatic and have it stressed to +10 -10!)

[sternone]

I climbed in one at Friedrichshafen, and i found it bigger looking on the outside than on the inside, also i don't know if it was hull number 1, but the one demonstrated at the show was awfully constructed, very very very bad finishing...if they will use that one for testing i'm sure that something will fall off..

they guy told me at diamond that the BRS parachute will be an option...

[IO540]

Diamonds are like that in the detail - a bit like an Ikea kitchen. That really put me off getting a DA40 a few years ago. The current DA42 seems a lot better, but the build quality close-up is nothing like say a new-ish TB20. It's hard to get the detail right with fibreglass, I guess, because making the mouldings just right and trimming them exactly is difficult.

[sternone]

Yes, maybe they ordered their mouldings in their factory in China...

[B2N2]

Lifted from aero News network, video of DA-50 at Oshkosh;
http://www.aero-tv.net/index.cfm?do=app.bestView&videoid=8e1ae3eb-1bcc-4e54-9911-5134635248df

[soay]

I like the DA40 apart from the fact it is grossly underpowered and has the build quality of the average pedalo.
I don't know what the old ones are like, but my experience of new DA40s is that their build quality is excellent. Much better than Cirrus can manage. However, I'll agree that the TDI could use a bit more power.

[Say again s l o w l y]

It's the strong whiff of fibreglass when you get in!

[IO540]

The DA50 looks very interesting but who wants to be a beta tester for yet another new engine???

I am sure that 5 years from now this will all be sorted. But it's early days. If it had not been for the dreadful Thielert engine problems I would not be saying this.

[B2N2]

beta tester for yet another new engine?

For now at least it will have a Twin turbo, Twin intercooled Continental IO-550 of 350 BHP.
I assume the 4.0 Thielert will follow at a later stage.

[soay]

I assume the 4.0 Thielert will follow at a later stage.
After reading about Diamond's own 170bhp diesel here (http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=049c4254-12c3-4e02-b01a-904a1d5710af&Dynamic=1), I'm not so sure that a Thielert engine is going to be an option in the DA50.

[scooter boy]

"they are talking about 200kts @ 75%"

sounds reminiscent of the pre production performance figures for the DA42 and didn't they just live up to all our expectations (50kts slower!!).

Rule #1 of basic aerodynamics: Put a big engine in a poorly finished plastic bathtub and you get a far thirstier, slightly faster poorly finished plastic bathtub.

SB

[sternone]

50kts slower!!

What a difference with.... mooney.. mostly faster in real than on paper...

[B2N2]

Powered by a 350-hp turbocharged Teledyne Continental Motors TSIOF-550J FADEC (Full Authority Digital Engine Control) engine, the SuperStar has a projected top cruise speed in excess of 200 knots, a range of more than 900 nautical miles and a 25,000 service ceiling. The panel will feature a Garmin G1000 avionics suite

From:
http://www.airventure.org/2007/8sun29/diamond.html

Cont 550 is pretty much the same engine as used in the Columbia 350/400 series.
No reason to doubt that sort of performance.
Curious about the wing design/airfoil used on the DA-50.

[deice]

Yeah - damn Diamond for lying to us about real performance! Now if you take Piper or Cessna or Robin or Socata or any of the other plain vanilla manufacturers they never sold us a pig, and they haven't kept at it for the past 40 years either... :rolleyes:
No, I don't work for Diamond and I was equally disappointed when the DA42 didn't deliver on its promise. But I recently learned why that is the case, and it makes me all the more optimistic that we will zoom in our 42s in the not too distant future!
A friend who is connected told me about the first trial with the new 2.0 diesel that incidently wasn't strangled at 135 hp but delivered the certified 155...
The DA42 chase pilot firewalled his engines to keep up with the DA40 and couldn't!! :D
Regarding build quality I find that our 42 feels and looks better than our first 40, but we recently received a new 40 and I have yet to compare. Although I must say quality of certain details is not what you would expect in a 450-500000 EUR airplane. Diamond need to find a better supplier for the chrome plated stuff.

[B2N2]

certified 155...Strictly speaking it's 160..
Yeah - damn Diamond for lying to us about real performance
Well I would argue Diamond didn't..the engine manufacturer did.
There's a reason as to why they are developing their own engine now.You don't need a PhD to figure that one out.:8
One of my points being...the IO-550 is a established engine with a track record.
Columbia's got 'em, Mooneys too if I'm not mistaken so with a clean airframe 200+ KTAS should not be overly optimistic.
Given, it will be in the flight levels but that's the case with all of them.
Diamond is a company which has come form virtually nothing (motor gliders under previous ownership) to number 3 selling in the US in under 5 years.
Competing with companies that exist for over half a century and beating them.
Has anybody ever picked up a new Cessna at the factory? Given that one a good look over? Any idea how much they have to reimburse under warranty the first 2 years?
But then again they make their money with the Citation series...not with the little piston plonkers.
Name two manufacturers that came out with a new twin in the last ten years.
The cost of a new Baron is $1.2 million, the cost of a new Seminole is around $700K. New Seneca $800K. Tricked out DA-42.... $600K with everything.
Performance very similar to a Piper Twin Comanche. It will beat it on fuel cost and endurance. Don't see or hear anybody bitching about the Twin Comanche.
Oh hang on... wait a moment...they haven't been build for over 30 years.
Diamond is a very high profile company right now, always in the news... guess what they get most criticism. Give em a break people..
End of rant...
Will get my coat and another beer.......:bored:

[sternone]

Give em a break people

We could, but the problem is the fact that they are so ugly, so slow and so badly finished !!!

And they told us it's gonna be beautifull, fast and high quality. And they're not!

[deice]

B2N2 - that was my point exactly, and Diamond's as well. Thielert cheated them out of delivering on their tested performance, because the engines couldn't take it...
We now have a 2.0 version of the Thielert in our new DA40 and I'm just hoping someone will provide updated ECUs so we can make use of the full potential!:}
Actually, the TAE125-02-114 or Centurion 2.0S is rated at 114kW, which equates to 156.18 hp. It's all in the Type Certificate issued by EASA... :)

[soay]

We now have a 2.0 version of the Thielert in our new DA40 and I'm just hoping someone will provide updated ECUs so we can make use of the full potential!
I reckon it'll need a new prop (and maybe gearbox) as well, which will have to be certified, so don't hold your breath.

[deice]

Well, the prop could require replacement as you say and possibly even the gearbox. I don't know the details of the design to that depth but reading form the TC there are two versions of the 2.0 engine, one delivering 99kW and the other at 114kW.
Generally speaking, it doesn't sound like good economics to have two different set-ups using the same gear ratio (1:1.689) for two variants with a relatively low difference in power. But they could claim that.
On the other hand, from a marketing point of view I think they would benefit from upgrading DA40s to the 2.0S version. I'm convinced that would increase acceptance among the sceptics, even if the aircraft are ugly, slow and badly finished at the moment :)
150+ knots burning 6-7 gal/hr jet fuel isn't too shabby...

[B2N2]

I'll be waiting for the new 170hp diesel they have just test flown in the DA-40.
Two of those should make a nice change on the DA-42, 350 HP iso 270. :ok:

[VORTIME]

B2N2,

The 170hp engine is a joke. They claim they will offer it late next year. That's quite impressive for a one man company (Austro Engine) with no production facilities, no type certification, no service outlets...it's also too heavy for the DA42 and the DA40 requires a counter weight to keep the CofG acceptable.

Also, it's not fuel efficient like the Thielert, it operates at a fuel saving of only 20% compared to AvGas.

Now I may be wrong, and hope I am as I'm a big fan of new engine technology. Please let me know if the above is correct.

VT

[deice]

Anyone remember the Zoche aerodiesel? It was a radial that was certified any moment, 10 years ago... I think it is safe to say that any new engine development takes a long time, and requires massive amounts of resources. Just look at the SMA diesel, it may be in production but in limited numbers and as yet no company has offered it. I guess Maule is the first to offer it on the market, not counting retrofits.
My point is, it'll probably be a while before we have Diamond diesels in out Diamonds, and the fact is the Thielerts are already out there. I'd be more surprised if Diamond offered to upgrade completely as compared to replacing 99kW with 114kW in an already existing solution.
But, alas, the thread was talking about the DA50. I hope they stick a diesel in that and apologies for drifting off topic. Looks pretty sweet to me.

[hodari]

without pressurization, it is just another GA! at 600K$

[deice]

Yeah, a bit like Pipers new Matrix. Or the Cessna/Columbia 350 & 400, and Cirrus SR20/22s. Wonder why they went that route?? Could be because Cirrus have delivered 3000 SRs in 10 years. Seems to be a market there.

If the information is correct there are plans to pressurize the DA50, but not from the get go.

[IO540]

The Matrix is a different sort of plane to a DA50, SR22, etc. It has long thin wings which are more efficient at the intended altitude of the pressurised version: FL250.

Unfortunately I don't really get the case for the Matrix; to get the efficiency you will need to be on oxygen, at FL250 lots of it (masks not cannulas, supposedly), and getting an oxygen bottle refilled is virtually impossible when travelling around Europe (as I well know).

The downside of the Matrix airframe is that it has very limited versatility for Europe. Barely suitable for grass, it is a long range tourer.

There is some precedent in partial pressurisation of a fibreglass hull; I believe Lancair have done something on their Experimental models. It would be fun to work out how to keep those gull wing doors shut (never mind sealed) with any pressure differential though :)

[sternone]

Barely suitable for grass,

Isn't it so that RG planes aren't suited for grass anyway ? You need to clean the area around the wheels everytime ??

[IO540]

No, retractable itself does not preclude grass.

Plenty of TB20s for example live on grass.

The "getting dirty" issue is a bit of a mixture.

If you get a RG plane filthy, you have a number of components to clean and perhaps re-lubricate afterwards, but it's no big deal because everything is out there, visible and accessible.

If you get a fixed gear plane filthy, there is likely to be a lot of mud/grass inside the cowlings where you can't see it, and it will build up.

The only solution is a plane with fixed gear and no cowlings, but they cost a lot in extra fuel. Even on a 100kt PA28, cowlings are worth about 7kt which is an awfully high % of engine power. This is what many flying schools have; cowlings get broken, the fuel doesn't matter so much.

However, regular operation on grass does translate into higher maintenance over time, probably more so if RG. But the whole plane gets more dirty anyway, and ages quicker. Also one has to taxi with a lot more power on grass - not so good with a cold engine.

Always go for a hard runway if you have a choice, especially for your home base.

There are planes with extra small wheels which I can't really see on grass unless it's very good. I am sure people do operate the PA46 on grass but I wouldn't like to.

[sternone]

I still see banners here and there advertising the DA50 with 200+kts, i'm very curious to see some real world testing...not the first flights tests in the way like: we flew the BLABLABLA and it flew better than we expected BLABLABALA it's just all the same crap all over again...until you get one, put it in the air and you see it's not meeting up the numbers!!! It's not because most of them in the industry cheat on their numbers, that everybody must cheat ?!

[englishal]

What a difference with.... mooney.. mostly faster in real than on paper...
yawn, heard it all before.

You should fly a Diamond before coming out with rubbish about them...actually you should learn to fly first.....

I look forward to the new generation of aeroplanes, rather than being stuck in the past in some crappy old thing that was built when the Wright Brothers were still alive.......

[sternone]

Oh you mean that when i test flew the DA-42 and lately the DA-40 is no flying i did then hu ? Please tell me what i need to do before i know i don't like those planes, because test flights of 2 hours doesn't count for you. I'm always happy to learn from real pilots like you !!

I would rather you answering my question, do you think that the DA50 will meet the 200+ kts sales prediction ?

[englishal]

Well I don't know how someone who hasn't even got a PPL can possibly determine the difference between different types of aeroplanes, let alone twin engine ones? ...unless you are superman/woman of course.

Probably won't make 200 kts IMHO, but close........

[sternone]

Ah ok, first off all, who said i don't have a PPL ? And secondly, great to see that ratings are more important for you than flight hours/expierence, well not for me.

[englishal]

Ah ok, first off all, who said i don't have a PPL
Umm...you did in one of your many posts....But I can't be bothered to find it right now.......

I don't know what you are on about re: ratings? I never mentioned anything about ratings......But it would be very hard for a SE Pilot to comment on the characteristics of a ME aeroplane...IMHO......

[richatom]

I've been doing some DA40 and DA42 delivery flights recently from the Diamond factory, so have been keeping an eye on progress on the DA50 for a few months. At the moment, DA50 is Diamond's third priority after certification of the D-Jet and the new engine. Test flying of the DA50 protoype has also been very limited by the weather at LOAN as VFR is not possible there for long periods due to fog. I don't think DIamond have even established a schedule for DA50 certification and delivery, but I don't expect it to be soon. The DA50 really is remarkably large - I would guess bigger than a Cirrus so I am not sure that a 170bhp engine will really be enough. It looks more like it is built to take a small turbine up front!

For those slagging off Diamond build quality I can assure you that it has improved very considerably of late (and I don't think it was that bad to start with). They have built two new hangars which are dedicated to finishing and quality-controlling the planes before delivery, and each plane is checked very meticulously. I have never found a single build fault in any of the planes that I have picked up from the factory. The only exception to that is that they never seem to tighten the elevator control commands sufficiently at the factory leading to mild oscillation when climbing on the autopilot - but that is a five minute problem for a technician to rectify.

They are super aeroplanes, and very comfortable even on long flights. With long-range tanks options both DA40 and DA42 have 7.5 hours range and they are adequately comfortable for the pilot even on flights of that length (and I know other delivery pilots who have done far longer flights with a supplementary tank on the back seats).

[scooter boy]

"They are super aeroplanes, and very comfortable even on long flights. With long-range tanks options both DA40 and DA42 have 7.5 hours range and they are adequately comfortable for the pilot even on flights of that length"

I was just thinking that very thought as I overtook a couple of Diamonds on Sunday!:E


SB

[IO540]

The build quality in the cockpit is much better today (on the DA42 - not looked inside a DA40 recently) than it was in 2002.

I am still not a great fan of what looks like zinc plated fixing brackets and zinc plated DIY-shop nuts. This stuff will rust fast and, according to an owner I spoke to recently, it does rust fast and some of gets replaced at every service. Still, not a lot to moan about and they can address detail like that easily. But then I am spoilt, with the super build quality, finish and general engineering of a TB20GT...

A 170HP engine on a DA50 will make it an absolute pig. I can't believe they will really do that. That plane is built for four fat Americans (or, these days, four fat Brits or Germans).

"200kt" could mean a lot of things. To pull 200kt IAS, the DA50 would need about 400-450HP. Even the Grob 140 (a dead project AFAIK) with a 450HP Allison turbine didn't go faster than that and that was a smaller cockpit than the DA50.

However, 200kt TAS at 25,000ft is 136kt IAS (ISA). You could build a 750kg plane powered by a lawn mower (Rotax) engine which would do that. A turbo-normalised TB20 (250HP) that could pull a sea level MP at 25,000ft would easily beat that at 65% power; most turbo planes can't because the MP is maintained only to about 15,000ft. The TB20 needs about 65% power (160HP) to pull 140kt IAS and I guess the DA50 (bigger frontal area, fixed gear) could pull 140kt IAS with maybe 200HP, so a 300HP turbo-normalised Lyco, or a 200-250HP turbocharged diesel could easily get you 200kt TAS.

With a decent turbo, 200kt TAS at 25,000ft is easy to achieve and that is exactly how Columbia and Mooney get their impressive sales brochure/advert figures. They are betting on most of their customers not knowing TAS from IAS. Of course the fuel flow is "appropriate" too ;)

The oxygen flow rate for four people, in these unpressurised planes, at 25,000ft, would be eye watering even with the Mountain High electronic demand regulators. You have to use masks, not cannulas, and in the end this does not represent any kind of practical mission capability.

[soay]

At the moment, DA50 is Diamond's third priority after certification of the D-Jet and the new engine.
Would that be Diamond's own diesel engine?

[scooter boy]

"The oxygen flow rate for four people, in these unpressurised planes, at 25,000ft, would be eye watering even with the Mountain High electronic demand regulators. You have to use masks, not cannulas, and in the end this does not represent any kind of practical mission capability."

Point taken, IO but you would file at a somewhat lower level (FL100-160) and climb above the Alps/weather etc.. for as long as you needed (say an hour or two) before coming back down again to your preselected cruise.

Nice to have access to that extra height band and be looking down on the clouds, not bumping around in the grey sleety stuff.

The alternatives for getting up higher (TBM/PC-12/Kingair) are an order of magnitude more expensive to buy and run (with the exception of the JetProp DLX which looks a bit of a chop-job in my opinion, costs far more per mile in fuel has far less payload/range capability).

SB

[IO540]

Agreed, SB - I was just trying to point out how "200kt TAS" is achieved, and that it isn't a realistic cruise speed at realistic levels.

I sometimes wonder why I didn't buy a TB21 instead. It does do less MPG at low levels (lower engine compression ratio), has about 2x the engine fund (bigger overhaul cost, due to a very rare IO540 variant), but with full TKS it has much more mission capability.

Perhaps I just too often see turbocharged planes sit in hangars for months on end........

[sternone]

Do these Diamond guys actually test their machines at 200kt TAS at 25,000ft ? Or do they make that up by calculations performance on lower flight levels ?

[IO540]

I recall reading the DA42 would do 207kt.

Obviously that was TAS.

In the end it fell tens of kt short. One could speculate it was a number of factors

- use of computer model figures
- a prototype aircraft flying at way below MTOW
- MTOW itself rising as they put in equipment which they didn't think they would need
- drag rising due to antennae etc

etc

The real question however is not whether the manufacturer of something brand new will meet the advertised specs; it is whether you want to pay $600,000 or so to be an unpaid tester :) Not getting 207kt is the least of peoples' problems.

[englishal]

I recall reading the DA42 would do 207kt
Wasn't that based upon an Avgas powered model with bigger engines which subsequently never went into full scale production?

Realistic cruise speed for a DA42 is 155Kts TAS at 70% power (5.9 USG per side).....

[sternone]

Realistic cruise speed for a DA42 is 155Kts TAS at 70% power (5.9 USG per side).....

On what FL ?

[englishal]

At 7500'....

[sternone]

The DA-42 POH states 70-percent power is 152 KTAS, and 80 percent is 156 KTAS. Seems to be your bird is doing better than the printed numbers!!

[richatom]

"I sometimes wonder why I didn't buy a TB21 instead. It does do less MPG at low levels (lower engine compression ratio), has about 2x the engine fund (bigger overhaul cost, due to a very rare IO540 variant), but with full TKS it has much more mission capability."

DA42 has TKS as an option. It works very well indeed, better than other TKS systems I have tried.

Others have misquoted perfo of DA42 - in fact you will see TAS155kts at F100 at 70%, burning 4.9USG per side with the latest 2.0 engines.

Finally the practical platform of the DA42 is F180, but yes, they have tested one to F250 (or thereabouts) at which point one of the engines stopped, presumably because the ECU could no longer work out what was going on. It restarted quite happily at lower altitude and there was no permanent damage.

To me the biggest advantage of Diamonds is burning JetA1 - not just because it is cheaper but more importantly because of its very high flashpoint. No Diamond has ever caught fire on crashing (and few have crashed and then due to pilot error). I once had a major fuel leak on a DA40 - on landing at the diversion I took the cowling off and started up and it was spraying very large amounts of JetA1 directly from the common-rail high pressure pump onto the turbocharger. I had flown for an hour or so (across water) to the diversion in that condition.

With most Avgas planes, if you crash or have a fuel leak of that magnitude you are lucky if you don't have a fire.

[sternone]

Like i said before, on paper and from the salespeople it sounds all just fantastic, in reality i know DA40 and DA42 owners who tell me the problems they have, the downtime they encounter, and the ****ty service from both Diamond and Thielert.

Somebody smart said once: "Even for a private pilot downtime costs money..."

[IO540]

they have tested one to F250 (or thereabouts) at which point one of the engines stopped, presumably because the ECU could no longer work out what was going on. It restarted quite happily at lower altitude and there was no permanent damage.

What is the current certified ceiling with the 2L engines?

I would be a little concerned about engines simply suddenly stopping due to altitude. One might have to do an emergency climb one day... Still, FL180 is OK for an IFR tourer, just.

On downtime, pilots' attitude varies enormously. Many evidently accept periods of months of no flying.

[sternone]

On downtime, pilots' attitude varies enormously. Many evidently accept periods of months of no flying.

Well you should if you are signing up for a Diamond Thielert!! I really hope the Thielert 2.0 solves most problems.

I like the old dual magneto system with WWII technology, ok, it's not the new technology of the Thielerts but at least it keeps my engine running when all my electrical systems fail...don't say it doesn't happen, it does, it has happend several times.

I agree that they don't explode that easely but it can explode when crashing, a pluspoint of the Diamonds is that they have a 'real' fuel tank and not a wet wing like the mooney or the cirrus.

[eltonioni]

I only have about ten hours on the DA40 but you must be exceptionally unlucky to have so many total systems failures. Remind me not to be in your aeroplane ;)

How many complete electrical failures / piloting hours do you have sternone?

[sternone]

None!!! Only 1 total engine faillure !! (the magneto's didn't helped me there!)

[eltonioni]

I'm confused, you said;

it keeps my engine running when all my electrical systems fail...don't say it doesn't happen, it does, it has happend several times.

[sternone]

Yes, but it started running again :-)

[richatom]

I was at the Diamond Factory on Easter Monday.

There are both DA42 and a DA40 flying fitted with the new Diamond engines. One of the pilots told me that the DA40 cruised at 170kts at FL120 at 100%. Fuel consumption is 20% less than the Thielert.

The new engine has the turbo mounted higher than on the Thielerts, so there is a change to the engine cowling. I have a photo of the DA42 test plane and can post it if anybody interested.

First deliveries of new engine are expected (by management) in second quarter of 2009 but the engineers are (apparently) not so optimistic.

DA50 is also flying regularly. I have a photo of it fitted with flow indicators on the wings.

Nobody knows exactly why the DA42 MPP crashed in Romania, though it is not reckoned to be technical failure. But survey work is conducted at high weight and low speed (and in this case in a mountainous environment) and the suggestion is that it may have been a handling error.

Anybody interested in the photos send me an email or explain an easy way to post photos on here!