Helicopter missing after Chelsea v Liverpool match

[Tallguy]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1263728,00.html?f=dta

[Airbornestu]

From the BBC http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6614347.stm

Search on for missing helicopter
A search is taking place for a helicopter that failed to arrive at its destination in Cambridgeshire early on Wednesday morning.
The aircraft took off from John Lennon Airport, Merseyside, at 2300 BST on Tuesday and the last contact was made with it just under two hours later.

The helicopter was carrying four people to Thornhaugh, west of Peterborough.

Cambridgeshire Police said a search had resumed after an earlier operation was called off because of poor visibility.

Helicopters and police search teams have returned to scour an area north of Peterborough.

A Cambridgeshire Police spokeswoman said: "The helicopter is thought to have disappeared from radar screens shortly after 0030 BST.

"It is thought to have been somewhere near the Leicestershire / Northamptonshire / Cambridgeshire border when it vanished."



Any one got any more details? Type would be interesting to know.

[lartsa]

i belive a helicopter crashed last night returning from chelsea/liverpool match
any got any details

[anartificialhorizon]

Breaking news coming in on helicopter missing after leaving John Lennon airport last night.

Rumours that helicopter had Chelsea FC officials onboard.

Will be an unbelievable coincidence if the Chelsea link is correct following the tragic death of former chairman Matthew Harding several years back.....

[leemind]

Sky News reporting it here
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1263728,00.html

[IB4138]

Aircraft is G-BYPA, registered to Judith and Phillip Carter of Peterborough.

[G-CPTN]

Chelsea Football Club have stated that no Club officials are missing or unaccounted for.

[mrsizzler]

There is a Sir Philip Carter who is President of Everton FC.

[IB4138]

A Sir Phillip Carter is President of Everton FC and former chairman.

[jamesarmstrong]

Is that reg not an Atlas heli?

[potkettleblack]

According to UEFA.com a chap by the same name is president of Everton. Bruce Buck is President of Chelsea.

[Stockpicker]

This Carter is the CEO of Carter & Carter, quoted company in vocational learning. Company's shares are suspended this morning.

[ppheli]

The whole of PPRuNe is a "rumour section", the "Ru" = Rumour... and thus best to carry on the thread here in Rotorheads section I would have thought...

The Sporting Life article here (http://www.sportinglife.com/football/premiership/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/07/05/02/SOCCER_Chelsea_Helicopter.html&TEAMHD=premiership) says that no Chelsea people were on board, but appears to corroborate the fact that an AS355 is missing en route Liverpool John Lennon Airport (dep 23.00) to a private site at Peterborough (reported missing at 00.30)

[bell222]

lets hope for the best

[G-CPTN]

http://www.evertonfc.com/club/sir-philip-carter-profile.html

[ppheli]

The volume of stories reporting this is increasing rapidly. Given the names being quoted in the articles and it being "their own helicopter", it would suggest the missing one is AS355F2 G-BYPA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detail&owner=carter&dataindex=7).

[dwshimoda]

BBC Have a bit more info:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6614347.stm

Search on for missing helicopter

A helicopter believed to be carrying a wealthy Chelsea FC supporter has been reported missing after taking off from Liverpool on Tuesday night.
Police are looking for wreckage west of Peterborough after the aircraft carrying Phillip Carter and three other people disappeared from radar screens.

Mr Carter is the founder of firm Carter & Carter and was at Chelsea's Champions League game against Liverpool.

A spokeswoman said Mr Carter, the pilot and up to three passengers were aboard.

She said: "At this moment we are praying and hoping for the best.

"Phillip Carter was returning from the Liverpool football match. We have not had any reported sightings at the moment.

"We do not know where he and his passengers are. There have been reports that the helicopter has come down but we cannot confirm anything."

Poor visibility

The Twin Squirrel aircraft took off from John Lennon Airport, Merseyside, at 2300 BST on Tuesday and the last contact was made with it just under two hours later.

The helicopter was due to land in Thornhaugh, west of Peterborough.

Cambridgeshire Police said a search for it had resumed on Wednesday morning after being called off earlier because of poor visibility.

A spokeswoman said: "The helicopter is thought to have disappeared from radar screens shortly after 0030 BST.

"It is thought to have been somewhere near the Leicestershire / Northamptonshire / Cambridgeshire border when it vanished."

[Ptkay]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=274211

[IB4138]

NB

The President of Everton FC is Sir Philip Carter spelt with one "L".

The missing Squirrel belongs to Phillip Carter, with 2 x "L" in his name.

Shares in Carter & Carter PLC, are suspended this morning.

[jamesarmstrong]

thanks ppheli - sarcastic comments always appreciated when dealing with a sensitive matter such as this.

[Tequilaboy]

Philip is a friend of mine and nothing to do with Chelsea Board apart from supporting them. Just trying to find out who else was on board and hope my fears are not realised. Worrying times

[Geezer7348]

News of the wreckage has just been confirmed on the BBC website :(

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/6614347.stm

[G-CPTN]

"Rescue services searching for a missing helicopter, believed to be carrying a wealthy Chelsea FC supporter, have found a crash site in Cambridgeshire.
Police said wreckage has been found between Wansford and Duddington, west of Peterborough,"


(Close to RAF Wittering, and on 'finals' to the home destination.)

[Chukkablade]

All very grim.

If they find wreckage, then it never tends to look good for those on board if they don't report on survivors at the scene.

Sad stuff indeed.:(

[ppheli]

Wreckage found. Reports on websites of Flight International (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/05/02/213636/crash-site-identified-for-wealthy-chelsea-supporters.html), Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=ab8S_mqUuZkI&refer=europe), London Evening Standard (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23394714-details/Fears+for+millionaire+Chelsea+fan+as+helicopter+wreckage+is+ found/article.do) and others

[IB4138]

The pilot has been named as Stephen Holdich, co-owner of operating company Atlas Helicopters.
The passengers named are Phillip Carter and Jonathan Waller.

[G-CPTN]

http://wikimapia.org/#y=52590014&x=-457993&z=13&l=0&m=h&v=1

[forget]

BBC News video -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6610000/newsid_6614800/6614881.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm

[Brilliant Stuff]

My heart goes out to all the families and everyone involved. What a sad day.

[scruggs]

Sky News reporting 4 bodies in the wreckage. Very sad indeed.

[smarthawke]

http://forums.flyer.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=31910

[Max_Chat]

Thoughts and condolences go to the family and friends of those concerned. A very sad day indeed.

[Ding Dong]

From the sky website ( remember it is sky )
----------------------------------------------------------------
'Chelsea's vice-chairman Matthew Harding and four other men were killed in October 1996 as they returned from a Bolton Wanderers match.
They had been travelling on a Twin Squirrel helicopter, which plummeted to earth in farmland near Middlewich, Cheshire, following a Coca Cola Cup tie.
An inquest jury returned verdicts of accidental death after hearing that the pilot might have become disorientated flying at night with no autopilot, while trying to map-read and talk to air traffic control.'
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting last paragraph there ?????? :ooh:

[mountjoy]

Nice one ding dong, have some respect for those that have lost. Speculation like that is really not welcome right now. I hope when your end comes people will show a little more courtesy.

As for Boeingmel, I take you are in fact referring to Steve Holdich the pilot. He was the co-director of Atlas helicopters and one of the nicest most enthusiastic people you could meet in this industry.

[theavionicsbloke]

Condolences to the family. Another sad day in aviation.
Anyone know what the WX was doing at the time?

[forget]

of Matthew Harding the AAIB said,

The most striking clues to the cause of this accident arise from the commander's declarations that he had penetrated IMC conditions coupled with the evidence of three eye witnesses who saw the helicopter in a steep nose-up pitch attitude. These clues indicate loss of control in flight conditions
which the neither the pilot nor the helicopter were qualified to enter. However, the local weather was described as fine by the witnesses who saw the helicopter's lights throughout its final manoeuvres and no-one reported seeing it penetrate cloud. Moreover, the accident might have been avoided if the helicopter had been recovered correctly from this abnormal manoeuvre.
This analysis leads to the conclusion that IMC penetration was a perception rather than a fact and explains the probable reasons for the mis-perception and unsuccessful recoveryfrom the nose-high manoeuvre.

Weather, the last I saw of it (11pm) and from 10 miles away, was patchy high cloud with a very bright full moon. Wittering is very close and will have exact details.

[tomotomp]

the weather from Wittering
EGXT 020050Z AUTO 02011KT 5000NDV BR BKN002/// 07/07 Q1017=
EGXT 012350Z AUTO 02011KT 5000NDV BR OVC002/// 08/07 Q1017=
EGXT 012250Z 02011KT 3500 HZ BKN002 08/07 Q1017=
EGXT 012150Z 03010KT 5000 HZ BKN004 09/08 Q1017=

[Colonal Mustard]

worked with holditch many times, condolences to all concerned, another sad day in the history of aviation, rip steve

[Ding Dong]

Nice one ding dong, have some respect for those that have lost. Speculation like that is really not welcome right now. I hope when your end comes people will show a little more courtesy.


I apologise if you thought i was was not being respectful mountjoy that was not the case. I was merely pointing to a media report on the event.

And in the event of my end, well ... time will tell.

[G-CPTN]

BBC reporting "and his teenage son".
Now that is sad . . .

Earlier reports were suggesting 'low cloud'.
How low is 'low'?

[Bravo73]

Earlier reports were suggesting 'low cloud'.
How low is 'low'?

G-CPTN,

See tomotomp's post above. :(

[forget]

Mention of 'thick mist' (?) on recent video at

http://www.peterboroughet.co.uk/news?articleid=2847554

[bell222]

deepest sympathies r.i.p

[forget]

Full AAIB on G-CFLT here

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_502753.pdf

[MBJ]

Very, very sorry to hear of this. Such a nice bloke, and a brave character peeling off from Aeromega those years ago and setting up on his own.

[RVDT]

For those not familiar with the METARS

EGXT 020050Z AUTO 02011KT 5000NDV BR BKN002/// 07/07 Q1017=

Location: EGXT
Day of month: 02
Time: 00:50 UTC
Report is fully automated, with no human intervention or oversight
Wind: True direction = 020 degrees, Speed: 11 knots
Visibility: 5000 m (2.7 NM) with No Directional Variation possible due AUTO
Weather: Mist
Clouds: Broken sky , 5-7/8 at 200 feet above aerodrome level
Temperature: 07 degrees Celsius
Dewpoint: 07 degrees Celsius
QNH (Sea-level pressure): 1017 hPa

One hour earlier it was 8/8 at 200 feet.

Hard graft in anyones book.

[Flingingwings]

Can we please try to keep any comments factual.

I knew and respected Steve and whilst a discussion may be prudent in the fullness of time, to help avoid future incidents, IMHO it is inappropriate at this time for those without the full facts to be passing judgement.

Mods - Is there no way the 9 o'clock jury can be silenced??????

[Letsby Avenue]

The weather is pretty factual - Pretty much the major fact IMHO
The near full moon last night at around midnight would have made any reduction in viz a LOT worse

[London Mil]

RVDT, your weather may be factual but the observation is about 90 minutes after the crash. Try 2320Z.

[RVDT]

London,

Which part of 0050 - 1 = 2350 when it was OVC002 = 8/8 which I did happen to mention was, not clear to you.

0050 -2 = 2250 BKN002 3500 HZ i.e.1.8 NM which was a human obs.

All I have done is post a translation of the METAR which a lot of posters did not seem to grasp the significance of. There is no judgement in my post.

Still hard work even in daylight if these or similar conditions prevailed at the destination.

[helimutt]

Thought we were all 'professional' here?

Weather was 'probably' near minima from the Wx reports but obviously if we weren't there then we can't really comment.
It's another Single Pilot event. Late at night (after possibly a long day already?) but not to a licensed field but to a private residence.

We shouldn't pass judgement until we have the facts but I think most of us are probably thinking the same thing. Everyone is so quick to defend but it appears that weather is nearly always a major factor.

Very sad news when another fellow pilot is lost like this but my question is why does this continue to happen?

No doubt the accident investigators will uncover the facts.

RIP guys.

[cyclic_fondler]

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23394714-details/Millionaire+Chelsea+vice-president+and+his+son+die+in+helicopter+crash/article.do
The artice shows a picture of the crashed aircraft which show it on its side. The bbc were reporting that the aircraft was found "virtually intact".
Condolences to the familes,
CF

[Special 25]

I need to start up a separate thread regarding Charter Ops, but I am a bit shocked by their methods sometimes. I recently had a chat with some experienced charter Heli pilots who told me how they fly towards home IFR then cancel their IFR clearence and descend into the cloud around London using the GPS as the only approach aid. I understand some pilots will take this down to 300ft and if they don't see the runway, they go around.

As HeliMutt says above - "Weather was probably near minima" - Overcast at 300ft, mist, maybe 2 miles visibility, night ??? What kind of minimums's do charter pilots work with ??

I'll be honest, I've gone from the army where you get the job done, and since then I've been in the nice comfortable world of Police or Offshore where we all have the right to look out the window and say "Nope, not good enough". I shudder to think of the pressure you charter guys must be under and then on top, working single pilot, navigating, handling the radios alone - Its just too much work - Certainly for a numpty like me.

I know people don't want to speculate about this incident and I'll follow suit, but even if this was a technical fault or structural failure, surely we cannot allow operations to continue, where it is legal to fly VRF at night in this sort of weather to a 'green field' site. We lost Mathew Harding and friends, we lost Max Radford with the Yukos boss on board, and now this incident. There has to be a better code of practice, one that gives all charter pilots the same rights that I have to point to a line in a rule book and say, "sorry, it just can't legally be done".

[helimutt]

Special 25, I have started a new thread and lets discuss the merits and demerits of single pilot ops at night and weather minima for public transport. (Was this flight being done as 'public transport' to a private landing site at night)
?

[jeepys]

As the captain of the aircraft you can always so no but it may not go down well with the boss or bill payer in the back. This is still no excuse to go beyond the limits but it will always be a factor in the commercial market where sometimes money is tight.
We all like to get the job done but I believe in the corporate/commercial side of the industry getting the job done means bill payed, happy customer, possibly repeat business etc etc.
It's a tough way of looking at it but it happens and until helicopters become so cheap to operate that any tom dick or harry can afford to travel by them then we will always have people trying to earn a living having to fly in the **** sometimes to complete the job.
It's very sad what has happened but this will happen again and again unfortunately.

[Stud1]

Hi helimutt...just for the record. This flight would most likely have been conducted under the banner of 'private' as the owner of the machine was on board. So anything contained within the company OM would not have had to be adhered to for this flight. Therefore, carried out at the discretion of the aircraft captain. Enough said...

I would also like to pass on my sincere sympathy to Steve's family and all members of Atlas at this very sad time. I worked with Steve directly on many occasions and will find it very strange knowing I will not see him later this year. RIP Steve.

[Hippolite]

Presumably if there is an automated METAR available for the closest airport then there would have been a TAF as well??

If I was faced with a 200' forecast cloudbase, a private landing site with no aids,a north easterly airstream in Spring in the UK(read fog), temp and dewpoint so close or forecast to be close, my first question to the boss would have been about which hotel we were staying at.

How many holes lining up in the Cheese do you need before you say no. I am presuming it was an IFR 355F2??

[Stud1]

Is there such a beast as an 'AUTO TAF'...not that I know of HIPPOLITE. And yes the machine was a full IFR

[Hover Bovver]

Special 25,
Max Radford was going into EGHH, not a green field site.

[SASless]

Never let the worry of changing employment ever get in the way of saying "No!"

It is far better to find yourself on the dole vice being the star attraction at a Wake.

Set thine limits and stick to them.....weather checks are done by telephone or laptop....never in the air.

When his Nibs puts pressure on you....do like Ma Reagan said....."Just say "NO!"

[helimutt]

...and just take a quick look at the facts surrounding Max's flight. Was Wx even mentioned as a possible factor? I always thought it was.

[aleprevost]

I have worked with Steve for the last few years doing the TT and Manx Grand Prix Air Ambulances. First class Pilot. He should have been here in less than a month for the TT - will be greatly missed.

[G-CPTN]

BBC Radio 4 News have repeated (on the 10pm News) the account of a witness that the helicopter seemed to be 'looking for an alternative place to land' (this came from a transport company operating a depot close to the crash site) 'as there seemed to be something wrong (with the aircraft)'.

What about endurance?

To listen to the 6 o'clock News bulletin:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/noscript.shtml?/radio/aod/radio4_aod.shtml?radio4/six_pm_news
From 10 minutes on, specific comment from 'witness' at 12 minutes to 12minutes 30secs.

[Hippolite]

Stud 1

Thanks for the insight, I have only been doing this job for 30 years so I didn't know that there wasn't such a thing as an auto TAF.

Likelihood is though that there would have been a TAF available, if not for the exact destination, then somewhere close, then there is an old thing called an area forecast, then there other Metars and TAFS for en route airfields and even internet.

Bottom line is, there should have been more than enough information available to make a sound decision about whether to depart, whether to divert en route etc. As it was, the wrong decision was made resulting in fatalities and the resulting grief for families and loved ones.

[Thomas coupling]

It was our old a/c before we changed it for our EC135. Full IFR AS355 F2. Previous reg: G-NWPI.
Steve was also a close friend of one of our pilots as he and his colleague had set up Atlas several years ago and were making a success out of it. Very competent and transparent company it has to be said.
I wonder if the Wx was Radiation fog on such an otherwise beautiful night? At only 1 mile to run to the site, they may have been letting down to land?
The picture in cyclic fondlers link shows an AS350??

RiP all.

[cyclicmick]

Isn't it sad that when four people, one of them a collegue to many who view this site, have died all we seem able to do is bicker about who knows what about the weather and weather reporting. Excuse me, I'm just going to sit here for a while quietly. RIP

[pitot212]

well said! RIP

[Airmech II]

As an Engineer and having an all too brief working relationship with Steve I'd like to pass on all my condolences to everyone who is affected by this sad loss, be they associates,family,business partners or just people who had met Steve and thought he was a good guy. Please all, have the decency and respect to leave all the speculation until the official AAIB report and give up all your energy into supporting everyone who is affected by this tragic loss.

[SilsoeSid]

Again well said.

Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth,
And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds...and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of...wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there,
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up, the long, delirious burning blue
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, nor even eagle flew.
And while with silent, lifting mind I've trod
The high untrespassed sanctity of space...
...put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

John Gillespie Magee, Jr

RIP

[cptjim]

My deepest condolences to the families and friends of those souls that have perished. This is a very sad and painful time.

Rest in peace

[mountjoy]

Today we have lost a true gentleman and an example to all, my condolences go to the passengers too.

Steve RIP mate.

[strake]

Desperate tragedy involving three people I know.

If it might help shut up those on this forum who are picking at the entrails...Phil and Judith own The Haycock in Wansford..

[Thomas coupling]

To the newcomers on here, I reiterate on behalf of most of the pro's already established on this forum.
This is a rumour network, just like you would talk about the accident in the office/crewroom etc so too would you chat here.
Derogatory and libellous remarks are obviously not welcome during the debate but please accept that genuine open discussion is a part of the fabric.
Take a look at all the other accidents/ incidents posted on Pprune to coroborate this.:hmm:

[Ding Dong]

please accept that genuine open discussion is a part of the fabric.


I agree ...

There seems to be many reports of 'eye witness's seeing the aircraft the account of a witness that the helicopter seemed to be 'looking for an alternative place to land' some reports even include seeing its beacon and postion lights, does this not point towards the aircraft clear of any weather ?? ... is it possible that it was tracking below the cloud base. Metar was reporting 200' ... pretty low to be searching for home or alt place to land.

[Whirlygig]

TC, granted but at least with the crew room it is private and you know to whom you are talking!

Cheers

Whirls

[verticalhold]

God spare us the amateur experts. This forum is supposed to be for "A haven for professional helicopter pilots to discuss the things that affect them." Please if you are not a professional pilot then stop speculating, the media just love it.

Steve was a friend to many of us, I have some very happy memories of working and socialising with Steve, and through bitter experience can imagine the pain his familly and close colleagues are going through.

To all at Atlas, all of us here in this company (Mike knows who I am) are thinking of you and are here for anything should you need us.

[AlanM]

AM I right in saying that this was the "Trident" callsign we speak to so often?

[bobmij]

Disturbingly similar to this incident.
http://archive.thisisoxfordshire.co.uk/1998/1/29/86954.html

[Colonal Mustard]

personally i cannot see any similarity myself...maybe me but then i`ve had a beer or four to remember a decent bloke

[helimutt]

bobmij, you are joking? Apart from it being a crash in same type, where is the similarity? One pilot onboard. People saw it happen so possibly vis not a problem. Haven't read aaib report on it so don't know for sure. Now people are just adding stuff to this thread for no reason.

Not necessary!:ugh:

[MBJ]

Thomas Coupling, you should know better if you've flown this machine. It was NOT a full IFR aircraft and never has been. It had a decent stab, but did not have the Monitor function on the Autopilot. It was therefore cleared for NIGHT but not CAT IFR. None of which, I suspect, had the slightest bearing on the accident.

[Thomas coupling]

MBJ, you're quite right. We never used the higher functions but I couldn't for the life of me remember why the other day! It was 8 yrs ago. And there was no intent to cast doubt over the IFR / IR aspect of the flight either, just commenting. I have my own personal views as to why this a/c crashed and I'll reserve those until the AAIB reports.

[rotorrookie]

C'mon guys show some respect here for the pilot and his experience,the late one's, their families and stop speculating about why this tragic accident occured.
We dont know if not some media are monitoring forums like this one here just to help them to speculate and make up stories, we should not be helping them with it
Many of you are jumping on the weather factor as a possible reason, but according to the pilots experience this probably not his first time flying in poor weather. Let's just wait for the AAIB report
My condolences to the families

[Hoveronly]

It is always a sad occasion when a member of our fraternity dies in an accident and especially in a situation for which the reason is not clearly apparent. If the pilot had the reputation of being a limit pusher, many would talk behind closed doors and perhaps even suggest that it was bound to happen. In this examle though, Steve was obviously a well respected and popluar pilot. In both cases though there are always lessons for us to learn/relearn. With such a loss of life as in this tragic accident, I am sure that the families would want nothing else for the future than for it not to be repeated. The disscussion on weather minima, aircraft equipment, commercial pressures and training/licencing standards is surely healthy and helpful to those of us who fly and operate these sometimes unforgiving aircraft. Condolences to the familes.

[Colonal Mustard]

Quote "The discussion on weather minima, aircraft equipment, commercial pressures and training/licencing standards is surely healthy and helpful to those of us who fly and operate these sometimes unforgiving aircraft."


Maybe, but at a time in the future, once the shock has settled and the "if only" questions have passed,maybe once steve`s funeral has been and gone, maybe when someone closest to steve and his family (you know who you are) have posted on here, but not right now :ok:

[S-Works]

A sad day, Judith and Philip were a very nice couple with lovely children. As a neighbor it is a bit of a shock for all around here. The loss of father and son must be truly devastating. I did not know the pilot or the other passenger but I feel for the families of them.

A couple of facts: We heard a helicopter go over the top of us at the time of the accident, I assumed it was mil or police and went out to look. The weather was appalling, thick fog and overcast around a couple of hundred feet. My drive is approximately 200m long and then end of it was in mist.

This is approximately 3 miles from the accident site and about the same from Phillips house. The fog came down very quickly from a clear sky at 10pm to solid fog at midnight.

The RAF Wittering weather station gives only METAR not TAF.

[Bravo73]

bad wx + night + no IR = bad news.


Indeed, thecontroller.

But FYI, Steve Holditch was a very experienced SPIFR pilot.



Please don't contribute if you've got nothing to add. :=

[London Mil]

B73, well said. I'm pretty sure that one thing we would all agree on is that most pilots don't willingly launch into the ether intent on killing themselves. The AAIB will undoubtedly come-up with a view on the chain of events that will be far better informed than anything we can speculate.

[Letsby Avenue]

Definitely not a GPS cloud break and short transit underneath some very low cloud then......

[mini]

Sad incident. Was Steve a PPruner?

[Flingingwings]

Letsby,
You saying it definitely was:confused:
I hope all those so eager to add speculation and blame so early into an investigation are equally as quick to apologise publicly IF the AAIB draw a different conclusion.
Well said Bravo73 :D :D
Thecontroller it's always great to read the wisdom of those not in the know, passing on so little to those looking to learn.

[Revolutionary]

What was it that the controller said that was so bad?!? Absolutely, this is a sad accident for all involved but why can't he make a generic observation that -in and of itself- is perfectly valid. By 'no IR' I take it he means either that this aircraft was not certified for IFR or maybe he's making a more general point about trends in aircraft accidents, I don't know. B73, was this aircraft IFR certified? Was it on an IFR flight plan? These are valid questions that the AAIB will have and there's no reason that we shouldn't be asking ourselves these same questions.

Sadly, the combination of night flight and marginal weather continues to claim the lives of novices and experienced SPIFR pilots alike. It's arguably the biggest safety problem we face in our industry. Of course, this accident may prove to have a completely different, mechanical, root cause. But let's face it, weather was a factor even if that turns out to be the case. Surely we can be respectful to those affected while at the same time confront some of the issues that may have played a role in this crash.

This is after all a Rumor Network and we are after all supposed to benefit from the free flow of ideas between ourselves. Let's ask the hard questions.

[mountjoy]

There is with no doubt a time and place to ask these 'hard' questions as you say. Just as there is a time to pay respect to people's loss.

There is no doubt that this is a rumour netowrk agreed, rumours can be aired and shared obviously, but at a time such as this some professional honour to those that are no longer with us should be more prudent.

You can ask all the hard questions you like, but as colonel mustard said when the facts are out and those that are closest (if they chose too...) have spoken, Steve Holdich's funeral has passed. The AAIB report is out then, but as B73 if you have nothing to add, and can only speculate, please find a better use for your time. :=

[Flingingwings]

Thecontroller you're not getting shot down.
Steve was a well liked, highly professional pilot and there is a clear sense of shock amongst a selection of his peers.
If you are not speculating about this incident how do you see a common link?
Journo's use this site, lets not give them ammunition.
IFR flying is tough at times, SPIFR even more so. Your generalisation will do little to offer any reassurance to this industry (both passengers and progressing pilots). I meet plenty of people that generalise about R22's being unsafe, based purely on statistics, yet they have never flown an R22.:confused:
Perhaps your viewpoint and timing would be different if you had known Steve, and if you held an IR.

[[email protected]]

Controller - I am with you - whilst it is desperately sad that another pilot has lost his life along with his passengers (and I send my sincerest condolences to their relatives and friends), this was, in all probability, a very avoidable accident. If it turns out to be mechanical failure then it still won't bring them back but the combination of deteriorating weather and a night approach to a field location are the most likely culprits.

Better that Steve's death promotes some sensible discussion into the causes of the crash rather than just prompting trite postings of 'I have slipped the surly bonds etc'

[Bronx]

whilst it is desperately sad that another pilot has lost his life along with his passengers (and I send my sincerest condolences to their relatives and friends), this was, in all probability, a very avoidable accident.sincerest condolences? :rolleyes: The pilot's relatives and friends are gonna feel real good reading you saying the pilot in all probability caused the accident, or maybe you weren;t sparing a thought for their feelings.

It's a shame some folks cant wait a decent time. The poor man aint cold yet and the vultures here are picking at his bones. :mad:

[Colonal Mustard]

well the early posts of "please wait a while before beginning the discussion" clearly went in one ear and out the other with some people....:mad:

[Brilliant Stuff]

I vote this thread to be closed since it has been IMHO hijacked and is not teaching us anything new except that some people have forgotten their manners.

[Heliport]

To Brilliant Stuff (and others who share the same view):

I can't justify closing the thread. I thought about it when Flingingwings asked in post #50.
IMHO speculation about the cause of the accident would have been better left to another time, but there are always two camps about that. Personally, I'm a 'Wait for the Accident Report' man, but I don't think I'm entitled to impose my personal view on others.


Stephen Holdich (49) was the co-owner of Atlas Helicopters, Lee-on-Solent.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42876000/jpg/_42876441_holdich203.jpg





Mike Burns, co-founder and ops director of Atlas, said:"Stephen was a hugely experienced and widely respected aviation professional with many years of successful flying under his belt. His family, friends and colleagues are devastated by the tragedy."I only hope Steve's grieving family don't look at Rotorheads while trying to come to terms with their loss.

Heliport

[Brilliant Stuff]

Thanks Heliport.:ok:

[Hoveronly]

Thanks for the pic Heliport. For those of us who either didn't know Steve, or who have seen his face around the bazaars, can anyone give a rundown on his career? Not digging for ammunition, just curious as to who he was. A private message would also be fine! Cheers

[theavionicsbloke]

Hey, Hey guys....I Only only asked What The WX was doing.....

I didn't know Steve but I am sure that if his skill and judgment was anything like what you are saying, then the thing to consider here is that the Weather Minimum on it's own may not have been a problem for Steve. I think if we are honest with ourselves we surely have all bitten off a little more than we can chew with Mother Nature at some time or other. However, bear in mind that it is normally a combination of issues that result in accidents of which bite even the most experienced aviators.

Lets see what the AAIB can tell us....and let us LEARN from what ever happened.

Mean while, let our thoughts be with Steve, his family & Colleagues. While you think about what happened......let it make us wiser.
Take it easy out there guys, look after yourselves... and each other.

[206 jock]

It seems that there are a few more long term implications of this unfortunate crash
http://www.hemscott.com/news/latest-news/item.do?newsId=51002736792933
and
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/10/02/bcncarter102.xml

[Letsby Avenue]

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/AS355F2%20Twin%20Squirrel,%20G-BYPA%2011-08.pdf

[jellycopter]

Just read the report in detail and as usual the AAIB have done a thorough job. Disappointingly however, you'd think it would have been proof read prior to publication for glaring errors.

ie "Night VFR limits
A private helicopter flight must remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface, with a minimum visibility of 5 km."

Incorrect on two counts I believe - there's no such thing as Night 'VFR' and the vis limits are significantly less than the quoted 5km. (800m from memory).

JJ

[ShyTorque]

JJ, I was also surprised to read that paragraph as I agree, there's no night VFR per se in UK. I wondered if they inadvertently quoted the day VFR limits relevant to a PPL holder?

[Ding Dong]

This thread caused a bit of feather flapping early on with a few lads due to what others 'speculated' .... I was wondering if they would now like to discuss the AAIB findings? Or will we just let the report be the end of the 'discussion'

[Twin-star]

I think BYPA had a single AC inverter and would be unable to fly SPIFR. Public transport flights at night (post Matthew Harding) require an equivalent of IFR, therefore the trip in question would have been Private. (Correct me if this is wrong please.)

Are Private flight visibility limits 800m for night VFR operations? I know there has been talk about changing the PPL VFR limit to 1,500m and even 3,000m. Reducing airspeed helps with lowered vis, so in a way the harder one to deal with is a low cloud base. All very sad...

[thecontroller]

I was jumped on at the time for daring to suggest this accident was due to weather. I think the report findings are pretty clear.

[jellycopter]

Twin-Star

Let's get this straight - there is no such thing as Night VFR. All night flights within the UK are IFR (or Special VFR in CAS) regardless of the weather conditions.

Therefore it is the Instrument Flight Rules one needs to refer to for night flight. The ANO states (from memory again) a minimum 800m in-flight visibility for night flight under VMC.

Although not relevant to this thread in any way, there hasn't just been talk of reducing the visibility limits for PPLs. The ANO was changed about a year ago restricting the minimum weather criteria for VFR flight. The minimum viz was set at 1500m regardless of type of licence held and the 'Clear of Cloud in Sight of Surface' was changed to 'Clear of Cloud with the Surface in Sight' which now has a clear definition and is more restrictive than previously. (Google CAP393 and take a look).

JJ

[212man]

It's not the weather that causes the problem (generally) it's what the pilot elects to do that dictates the outcome.:(

[rotorspeed]

So true 212man. And the same view could be taken of the Rules. Yes of course they should be complied with. But ultimately one should be able to fly safely if no rules existed at all, and purely very good judgement was relied upon.

The as ever very thorough report is I'm sure no surprise to many of us. So what's most important to learn from it? Low level at night with scant ground lighting is very very hazardous, especially in poor VMC. And there really needs to be the ability and expectation to establish an immediate and safe rapid climb on instruments if ground reference is lost. With enough speed and power to do so.

At least it seemed the fuel was there for a safe alternate to be used.

[ShyTorque]

Lessons to be learned or refreshed in ones' mind from this, as is usually the case.

Eventually, every pilot is quite likely to face a similar situation to the events leading up to this accident.

My personal lesson is to continue to remind myself to always be mentally prepared to call it a night (or day) if it gets too silly. To climb and divert to an instrument approach elsewhere, however inconvenient it may seem. Don't get forced into a corner.

[Shawn Coyle]

The aim of every flight is to walk back in to the (office, house, crewroom).

[Ding Dong]

it's what the pilot elects to do that dictates the outcome.So true.

At night, IFR, possible bad vis on route, possible bad Weather to a non lit private site. Sorry PAX we are going to Option "B" or possibly Option "C"

Stay safe.

[Helinut]

This is a general comment about how to avoid these sorts of problems in general, and not a comment about the specifics of Steve's very sad accident.

For me, night is a different ball game from day (onshore). I try to think in terms of always having an escape route (and the necessary means to use it - adequate fuel for diversions in my experience is often a problem, especially for light helis full of pax or mission equipment). I get myself to think about that as part of my planning and if there is a decent possibility of not getting the punter to his destination (or the job done), I raise that with the customer and/or the ops department. The point is to try and get it in everyone's mind that we may need to not go or divert.

You have to focus on YOUR safety. If necessary be prepared to tell the pax or operator to stick it. It seems to me that in your average career in typical light heli ops, you have to expect to have a major argument about such things more than once. As Sean says, the first priority for YOU is to walk back into the office.

Which does not mean I always get it right, indeed I have got it wrong on a number of occasions: then lady luck plays a part.

I suspect that the most hazardous pressonitis comes from inside the pilot. If you review some of the sadly awfully long list of similar incidents, a significant number involved pilots "who ran the company" or had in other ways a real personal interest in "getting the job done", no matter what.

After a bit of practice, I don't have too much of a problem with turning down/diverting an ordinary charter job. They just aren't important enough to seriously risk my life for. The one that I think I need to be much more careful of, is the classic "saving a life" task in emergency service flying.

Of course, it is not always easy or comfortable to do the right thing. Somewhere on here VeeAny recounts a recent case where he was let go by a private owner when he diverted to a suitable alternate, rather than continuing to the private site destination in unsuitable conditions with failed kit.

A while ago I was being interviewed for what could have been for me a really great job. Corporate pilot for an outfit whose main activity was of really great personal interest to me - I have a lifelong passion for it. The job involved all sorts of elements: interesting flying, a good aircraft. However, in my conversation with the main man, we had cause to discuss bad weather decision making in various ways. It became clear to me that he was in the habit of pressurising his existing pilot to fly. He compared that pilot unfavorably with a PPL he knew. After much heart searching, I declined the job offer.

A short while later, the much praised PPL killed himself and his pax in a bad weather accident.

[biggles99]

Helimutt, and others.

I read the AAIB report carefully and completely.

I am still left with a conundrum that hopefully someone can help me with.

Up until the accident, he seems to have done everything absolutely perfectly.

He's mature, he's got 8,000 hours, he's got all the right ratings, he's current, he's done all the checks he should have done and so on and so on.

The aircraft is fully able to cope with these conditions and was fully functioning.

The weather, albeit challenging, wasn't un-expected or unknown.

And there were options to continue, climb or divert.

So, under these conditions, what is it that can still lead to this tragic outcomes?

I'm not looking for any smug or trite "error of judgement" quipes, --- of course it was an error of some sort to hit something hard at 60kts ---

It's what leads up to that error that I'm interested in. The AAIB doesn't really help here, and although I never knew the pilot, I'd reckon he was a lot more competent than myself.

Big Ls.

[BoeingMEL]

I had a distant commercial relationship with Phillip Carter and a family member worked for him prior to the accident. In making the following comment I wish no offence or slur on Mr Carter or his surviving family, friends or colleagues or to Steve H.

As a result of many lengthy conversations and much consideration (I did consider contacting the AAIB immediately after I learned about the accident) it is our view that Steve H could have been put under immense pressure to land at their intended destination... notwithstanding the prevailing w/x conditions. bm

[the beater]

In my experience, it's relatively easy to abort the flight early on. I think that the difficulty of this type of flight is that it only really gets difficult in the last few minutes by which time you're so close to your destination that you feel that you've failed at the last hurdle. Just put yourself in the same situation; you've got the qualifications and experience to get to within 2 miles of the destination without much drama.
A lot of less experienced / qualified pilots wouldn't have got anywhere near. Most of the pilots attempting this flight would not have the option to have made the majority of the flight in the safety and relaxed comfort that is afforded to the holder of an IR flying an SPIFR aircraft.
You've now descended to low level and become visual with the ground with 2 miles to run. It's too late to divert to an IFR alternate once you've gone below MSA unless you can climb to MSA in VMC. Ignore any possible external pressure; human nature being what it is, most of us would have felt very unhappy at having to land so far into the flight. The only options are to land at the lit yard and continued the journey by road, or to fly low and slow the very short distance to go.
We all, from the comfort of our armchairs, know what we would do.
Some of us recall being in similar situations and think 'there but for the grace of god'.

[ShyTorque]

It's too late to divert to an IFR alternate once you've gone below MSA unless you can climb to MSA in VMC.

The beater, why do you say this? It's not true, unless I'm missing your point.

[the beater]

It very much depends on how far you are below MSA; a few feet, or even a few hundred wouldn't cause a problem, although it's surely better to stop your descent at MSA unless you are visual and are likely to remain so.
In the case in question, the helicopter was descended - perhaps visually - to 20'AGL. How do you then propose to climb safely to MSA in IMC? Entering IMC on departure from an un-surveyed site is fraught with danger (electricity pylons, telegraph poles, trees, etc). To maintain stability in the climb you need sufficient airspeed. This is why we have IMC envelopes. Even a climb at Vy at the highest ROC achievable is going to require a fair amount of distance.
I've checked my logbook, and this is an aircraft that I haven't flown, so I don't know what equipment it had, but a nightsun would have been nice. The landing lights on all the twin-squirrels that I've flown have been woefully inadequate for night departures from unfamiliar sites.

[jellycopter]

Given the weather conditions and probability of fog/mist I think a nightsun is about the last thing you would want.

JJ

[ShyTorque]

Beater, I disagree. I fly a SPIFR aircraft in an almost identical role to that of this pilot and it seems to me a timely, properly controlled IMC climb would almost certainly have saved this aircraft. A nightsun most probably wouldn't, after all the aircraft would already have had a landing light plus a movable searchlight.

[I have used nightsun quite extensively and taught its use (RAF SH (Puma), SAR and special ops (S-76 and Blackhawk) and UK police (AS355). As Jellycopter says, it's of limited use, counterproductive even, in very poor visibility caused by low cloud and fog due to glare and backscatter. Because night vision is instantly reduced, suddenly you can see nothing outside of the beam, at least until your eyes adjust. To attempt to get it fired up and pointing in the desired direction would have increased the pilot's workload further, at least for a short time].

As far as an IMC climb to MSA goes, minimum IMC speed and full power, wings level, ball in the middle. Increase speed to Vy once at a safe altitude. Or alternatively, a Class 1 helipad departure profile. Not sure why you asked that; it's fairly basic stuff, as per any night takeoff into IMC from a remote site.

[rotorspeed]

Beater

It really is nonsense to think you need to be VMC up to MSA on a departure before going IFR I'm afraid. Of course you need to be sure of obstacles and know your surroundings before going IMC and a pilot must be aware of local obstructions and terrain before doing so. This area was about as flat as you can get, with nothing above 200ft I shouldn't think. Now if the location was somewhere hilly/moutainous be a different deal.

And also agree ShyTorque on the nightsun - it was almost certainly bumbling into patchy mist/fog at low level that caused the disorientation and LOC and with the amount of moisture in the air the glare would have just made things a lot worse. Scant ground lighting is a nightmare - a few bits can mislead into thinking vis is better than it is, then when there's none you're effectively IMC. It was probably recognition of the well lit truck yard that sucked Steve into thinking (a) he was nearly there, and (b) the vis was going to be better than it was over the last mile or two. Once that had gone.... Tragic lesson for us all.

Sadly this was not unlike a B206 accident near Goodwood many years ago. Someone will remember the details - although in that case it was trying to sneak over the South Downs that was the final problem.

[the beater]

We will probably have to agree to disagree about this.
I too have used nightsun in some of the roles mentioned by ST, but let's not turn this into a 'my dad's bigger than your dad' type argument. In fact we probably would do well to disregard the nightsun arguments (yes, I know that I first mentioned it). But just to clarify things, my point was that I would prefer to have sufficient illumination to be able to see and avoid any obstacles on my departure path. I don't find that night vision is of much use. How many of us prepare for a night flight by sitting open-eyed in a dark room? Personally, I walk from a well lit briefing room to a well lit heli-pad and then depart from there using the landing light. I have even been known to use the storm light to complete paperwork. For a VMC departure I would like as much light outside as possible; in the event that I was blinded by the landing light/nightsun reflecting off fog, then that makes the go/no go decision easy. Once IMC I'm not interested in having night vision, as however good it is you can't see anything anyway. I now require adequately lit instruments.
Mention is made of a departure using min IMC speed and max power.
Why would you comply with the min IMC speed and yet still put yourself outside the IMC envelope by using an excessive ROC? This would still lead to reduced stability and an increased risk of loss of control. Could this ring any bells? And could you see pylons, let alone wires using only your night vision and/or a landing light. You are still going to be moving forwards into the unknown.
OK, it's time to make a confession...
I'm not an expert on night-time departures from unsurveyed sites/helipads. In fact I've never done one yet. I've spent a lot of hours low level using nightsun but I've never landed or taken off from an off-arifield site at night that I was not familiar with. I'm surprised that this is apparently considered normal in the corporate night-flying world. Having said that, I recently spoke to a friend flying corporate that informed me that they routinely let down in IMC to 300' AGL to private landing sites.
No thanks!
Respect to you guys. If I'd managed to get into the situation described I wouldn't have had the bottle to do anything other than to use my degraded night vision to gropingly tie down and call it a night.:O

[the beater]

Rotorspeed.
Our posts crossed, but you mention that it is nonsense to remain VMC up to MSA provided you are aware of obstacles and the surrounding area. This is exactly what I'm getting at! Do you know of every obstruction including power-lines within 2 miles of your house? You say that the area is flat with nothing above 200' you shouldn't think. Shouldn't think! I would like more certainty than a 'shouldn't think'. Besides which, it is possible that you could hit something lower than 200'. Trees, perhaps?
You mention that his recognising the yard would lead him to think that he was nearly there. If he recognised the yard he would have known that he was nearly there. I mentioned the problem that this causes on my first post on this thread.
'Tragic lesson for us all'.
Only if we learn something from it.

[rotorspeed]

Oh for goodness sake beater this is getting tedious. If I was actually making the flight in question of course I would have checked on obstructions for sure - I only said "shouldn't think" because I'd not looked at a bloody chart before posting and was commenting as a third party!

And yes I do know of every obstruction within 2 miles of my house. It's not difficult. :rolleyes:

[ShyTorque]

Why would you comply with the min IMC speed and yet still put yourself outside the IMC envelope by using an excessive ROC? This would still lead to reduced stability and an increased risk of loss of control.

Beater, the pilot was in an extremely dangerous situation. He was already outside the IMC envelope by being at 20' agl but also outside the VMC enevelope. He did lose control. He allowed his aircraft to hit a tree.

Presumably he was somewhat familar with the area around the proposed LS (because he had been there before by day) so he should have had some idea of the major obstructions. If the aircraft had been climbed asap after realising that the perceived lights were incorrect, the outcome would not have been the same. There have been nights when I too have had to go around from low level because the weather wasn't as good as predicted or low level fog was created by the presence of the aircraft's rotorwash. Sometimes a published IMC max. rate of climb is not a priority. Yes, I've had to go around from 300 feet radalt by night, but only on a known letdown path, on a stabilised approach. What I didn't do was attempt to go "grobbling around" in the dark at low level in marginal weather from position uncertain.

[CarryOnCopter]

Some times it's a pleasure to fly at night and the view to the east was great. The moon was shining on this low carpet of cloud as far as the eye could see, I thought that night, "glad I'm not going that way".

[jumpseater]

or low level fog was created by the presence of the aircraft's rotorwash

Just a quick query having followed the thread from day one, and being a Qualified Met observer, how would the above occur? Is it the low cloud in effect being blown down to the surface, or more technical than that? Interesting to me as I've never heard of the phenomena, though I am aware of the problems of heli's disturbing snow when landing.
Ta in advance ...

[ShyTorque]

It's a very localised, almost personal fog that sometimes comes off the vortices caused by the rotor wash, in conditions of very high relative humidity. It disperses almost immediately once the aircraft has passed but as far as the pilot is concerned, the visibility drops to about the same as the rotor blade length.

[the beater]

It also has a distinctive odour. I can smell it now.

[jellycopter]

Once had an HS125 envelop the whole of the runway and short finals in front of me into fog. I was following about 3 miles behind in a Puma. Conditions were clear starry night, 100% RH but no wind so therefore no mixing = no fog. The HS 125 provided the mixing and instantly the fog began to form and although I had the required visual referneces at decision height, when we got down to the runway we could only see one runway light ahead of us. I had to use the GPS to locate the turn off!

Also started up a Wessex at Valley early one morning in very similar conditions. The effect of the rotor disturbing the crisp, clear air was to fog out the whole of the dispersal area so that we could no longer see where to taxi. It took several hours to clear.

Beater, to quote VeeAny - you don't know what you don't know.

JJ

[ShyTorque]

It also has a distinctive odour. I can smell it now.

Yes, usually reminds me of what I've eaten........ :eek:

[the beater]

I couldn't agree more. In fact, I would go as far as to say that there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know. And you can quote me on that.
Are Jellycopter and Shy Torque in anyway related? I'm only asking because they both seem to have experienced phenomena that seems uncommon.
Has anyone else experienced anything like this?
There must be a photo out there somewhere.

Anyway, back to the matter in hand. Fog.

Radiation
Advection
Hill
Coastal
Steam
Freezing
And of course, the spooky one that I've yet to see. Shall I call it 'rotor induced fog' or does it go by another name? And is the one that lasts for hours caused by a subtle difference in rotor wash to the one that disperses almost immediately?

Can anyone else add to the list?
Serious answers only, please.

[the beater]

Posts crossed again. But good one ST. I think that must have been it.
Breakfast of Cherryade, sprouts (well done), spinach and overripe camembert. Hope I don't experience it today!

[verticalhold]

Beater;

Rotor induced fog is quite well known. I once put Aberdeen into low viz procedures doing a ground run before the first departure of the day. The Puma enveloped itself in a small fog bank which then spread as others started up. Took ten minutes to cover the entire airfield. Landing last week in clear, humid conditions the viz was appalling for five minutes after I landed.

Watch your tip vortices in the right conditions and you will see the phenomina.

VH

[the beater]

Fair enough. Just haven't experienced it myself.
We live and learn.

[jellycopter]

Beater

I'm no met man but it's basically Radiation Fog. As I understand it, it is that in order for water vapour to condense into a water droplet there needs to be a condensation nucleus. This can be anything from the aircraft itself down to microscopic pollution particles. In the case of 'rotor induced fog' the air has to be very still. The air cools overnight through radiation but because there is no movement in the air there is no mixing and therefore there are no 'collisions' with condensation nuclei and fog does not form despite 100 per cent Relative Humidity. What will be experienced however, is a very heavy dew. Now along comes ****ehawk with his helicopter and not only does he stir up the air but he's also producing quite a lot of exhaust efflux (condensation nuclei) and hey presto - Radiation Fog!

JJ

[ShyTorque]

Now along comes ****ehawk with his helicopter and not only does he stir up the air but he's also producing quite a lot of exhaust efflux

Speak for yourself, mate! ;)

Are Jellycopter and Shy Torque in anyway related? I'm only asking because they both seem to have experienced phenomena that seems uncommon.


Beater,

No, I'm not related to Jellycopter, but he and I flew together at one time. Albeit not since mid August 1987 when I claimed to have taught him something in a Puma. My old logbook gives no useful clue what it was but it took two hours, possibly something about low-level nav.

Ever noticed the condensed water vapour from wing tip vortices as a jet aircraft pulls hard in a display during very humid conditions? This rotor induced fog is the same thing as far as I can see. The vortices at the rotor tips cause the formation of a foggy "curtain". It's not common but I've seen it a number of times at the bottom of an IMC approach to field locations. Worst time though was at Kai Tak airport during a period of extremely heavy showers. I was asked to hover taxy across the runway and hold but shortly after crossing we began to go IMC in the hover. I had to carry out a very expeditious zero speed landing using the only ground reference available on the airfield, which was the edge of some tarmac, off to my right. After landing on, ATC asked me to confirm my location and I couldn't give it for a few minutes because we were IMC on the ground. When it suddenly cleared, we were just outside the Fire section.

[FloaterNorthWest]

beater,

Your profile doesn't give much of a clue to your background.

It may be helpful if you listed your types, licences, experience, etc. so that readers, both experienced and in-experienced, can form an opinion as to whether you should be listened to as a source of valuable knowledge* or ignored as an opinionated prat*.

*delete as required.

FNW

[ShyTorque]

Bit harsh there, FNW. :ooh:

After all, only a handful of folk know who most of us really are.

[FloaterNorthWest]

Shytorque,

I didn't mean to offend.

I gave the readers a choice of two, it is up to them to choose. I have made it a bit clearer that it is up to them to choose and not an expression of my opinion. :}

FNW

[ShyTorque]

I agree, it is useful to put some personal details on the "profile" page. If there are no details posted it is easy to assume the person is putting forward an unqualified opinion.

[Senior Pilot]

Just a quick query having followed the thread from day one, and being a Qualified Met observer, how would the above occur? Is it the low cloud in effect being blown down to the surface, or more technical than that? Interesting to me as I've never heard of the phenomena,


This video (http://s97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/flyboygms/?action=view&current=205FuelHaul2004-40C.flv) shows a 205 creating ice fog at -40C in a high hover. The last 20 seconds is the most impressive :eek: (http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/eek.gif:eek:)

[jumpseater]

SP, thanks for that, I know what to look for then, and importantly for me as someone who'll be watching remotely, how quickly it develops when/if it does!

Has VA seen this vid?, could be a useful safety one for his project!:)

[ShyTorque]

SP, thanks for posting that, I hadn't seen that video before.

Perhaps the smell of BS alluded to at post #132 will now be a little less pungent for the contributor? :hmm:

[rotorspeed]

FNW/ShyTorque

Beater may not have any profile but from previous posts has apparently "flown thousands of hours IFR" so should know what he's talking about. Bit strange though that he says he's never departed from or landed at a non-airfield site at night.

What sort of IFR flying have you done so much of beater? Not fixed wing by any chance is it?

[Bravo73]

Beater may not have any profile but from previous posts has apparently "flown thousands of hours IFR" so should know what he's talking about. Bit strange though that he says he's never departed from or landed at a non-airfield site at night.

Those 'thousands of hours IFR' might well all have been on the NS (hence any non-airfield site will still be relatively well lit.) Or (and it's a big OR), we all might have to heed the warning that is at the bottom of every page...

Although the beater has been rather conspicuous by his silence since FNW made his request yesterday afternoon.

[the beater]

Just busy, guys. Interesting last piece in GASIL. Will get back shortly.
Will probably have to wait till tommorow now as some personal business has just cropped up.
But I'm not going to reveal my identity, as this is not important. What is important is what we say. My public profile, if I completed it would have no bearing on my opinions, and in any case could be false.
I stand by what I've said about the case, and am prepared to accept that my opinion leaves me in a minority.
Just to clarify one thing thought; I've landed and taken off on many occasions at unlit sites at night, it's just that they've been familiar to me.

[iainms]

I'm not an expert on night-time departures from unsurveyed sites/helipads. In fact I've never done one yet. I've spent a lot of hours low level using nightsun but I've never landed or taken off from an off-arifield site at night that I was not familiar with.

This is what the beater says, read again the ' that I was not familiar with ' bit !

[4ftHover]

An inquest is being held into the death of Notts businessman Phillip Carter (http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/homenews/Cloud-led-fatal-helicopter-crash/article-934886-detail/article.html)