Flying Above The Law??

[BYALPHAINDIA]

Watchdog reported on Wed evening, The way some 'low cost' Airlines are purposley operating above the Air carrier legislations set out in the ANO.

There was a story of a pax who had a return flight cancelled at the last minute, And Bmibaby gave no help/assistance whatsoever.

The pax had to find their own accomodation at a very short notice, In a strange place at night.

The pax was eventually refunded for the hotel costs, After contacting Bmibaby on several occasions.

Bmibaby did not offer to transfer them onto another suitable flight.


In other cases including Ryanair & Thomsonfly, Pax were also left to look after themselves in strange places with no representation or assistance from the Airline after their flights were cancelled due to several reasons usually weather.

In the Thomsonfly case, A couple returning from Paris were told that their flight was cancelled, And that they could not be transfered onto another flight back to the UK, They had to look after themselves for the evening.

Simon Calder was interviewed by watchdog, And he said he was disgraced by the behaviour of Thomsonfly the UK's largest operator in that they disregarded their pax and 'openly' flouted Air carrying laws, That state the Airline - not the handling agent must look after it's pax.

The Airlines said in a statement that in the 3 cases, The pax was cared for by the handling staff, But this was not good enough said the program.

The program stated that some Airlines are 'talking' in loopholes to pax
when it comes to admitting who should care for pax at Airports.

Simon Calder said that Airlines that operate in this way should be 'penalised' for a lack of duty of care.

But he admitted that this is not happening, After the change in the law last year for pax severely delayed.

Reporter Paul Heiney added that some Airlines are 'openly' flying above the law??

[TheGorrilla]

I'm really not sure that this has anything to do with the UK Air Navigation Order, hence "The Law". I think some people (mainly journos) confuse the passengers charter with the law. It is simply a code of conduct.

The big green book is the law as far as I'm concerned.

[ZeeDoktor]

or, as I like to tell the super savers,

You get what you pay for!

[Dream Buster]

I thought everybody knew (evidently not passengers) that the first five words in the UK ANO are:

"An aircraft shall not fly......."

Look it up. It does what it says on the tin. Apologies fror the cheap jibes.

:E

[Farmer 1]

or, as I like to tell the super savers,

You get what you pay for!

That's the point - he didn't get what he'd paid for, apparently.

[ZeeDoktor]

I think they did.

They demand service based on expectations built in pre-low cost carrier days, but they don't want to pay for that experience.

For illustration:
When going through a McDonald's drive through I don't expect the same product quality as in a good restaurant.

When taking a bus I don't expect the same comfort as when travelling in a taxi.

The air passenger charter or whatever the name of that PR paper
is nothing more than an attempt to further the often borderline false advertisement LCC's have been making all these years.

The cost of operating a fleet does not vary all that much if done properly. So where can the LCC save? With customer service and the comfy extras I purchase by adding an extra fee. Or, in other words

You get what you pay for.

[Farmer 1]

But if, heaven forbid, I were to go into McDonald's and pay for a hamburger which I did not receive, I would have grounds for complaint. I would also have grounds if the hamburger were not of an acceptable quality.

While agreeing wholeheartedly with your statement, "you get what you pay for", if you don't get what you pay for, in this case a flight, then I can understand the pax (or non-pax) being a bit miffed.

[ZeeDoktor]

Well, I don't think either of us knows the circumstances. It sounds to me like they got stranded after a flight was cancelled. Happens to the best of airlines, the difference being the LCC might not have the the appropriate personnel on location to take care of these things. One of the few things that CAN be saved on. Alas, you get what you pay for...

[unablereqnavperf]

When you pay £25 for a ticket you don't get back up aircraft,you don't get Hotels provided, you don't get good customer service,and the loco's to be fair tell you that when you buy a ticket. If your train is cancelled do you get put up in a hotel NO,if your bus gets cancelled do you get put up in a hotel NO,then why should airlines do it?

In the past when customers paid the right price for their tickets airlines were able to afford to be caring and therefore created this percived problem.

The air passenger charte is not the LAW!

If you want to be cared for when the aircraft you were due to fly on breaks down or the weather prevents a flight operating then pay for a ticket that includes those facilities! Its quite simple really.

The loco's are providing a great service for a great price but when the wheels fall of your on your own! As has been said before if your to tight to pay for a quality service then accept what you get.

If you buy a cheap Rolex rip of watch in Bangkok due you expect it to work as well as the real thing? ............:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Farmer 1]

ZeeDoktor,

Let's agree to agree, then.

Farmer.

[55yrsSLC_10yearsPPL]

Fortunately there is law applicable to carriage and to contracts.

When I go through the McDonald drive-through (not voluntarily I assure you) I order and pay at the first window. Then I expect to receive what I have paid for at the delivery counter, no matter how spongy and tasteless the product may be.

It is not up to me as a customer to investigate the accuracy of cost calculations of high and low cost carriers (they both seem to miscalculate with equal frequency and go into receivership with equal regularity). But once I have purchased a return trip, however cheap, I expect delivery.

If they can't deliver, they ought to be put out of business.

[El Grifo]

Some incredible arrogance being shown here from, one assumes, persons involved in an industry which at one time was held in high esteem and now as the equivalent to cattle transportation.

You get what you pay for Eh ??


You purchase a ticket for journey from a reputable company at a price which is clearly advertised and they fail to carry out their side of the bargain.

In the real world I think the term is "Rip Off"

Out of all the different modes of transport that I am required to use, Air Travel is the one that has tumbled from grace the fastest. It is almost a disgrace how tacky it has become.

Before I am asked, I have flown with airlines ranging from business class in Emirates to cattle class on Easy Jet and everything between

[jimworcs]

Regardless of whether you paid £5 or £500 for a ticket, you have paid for a flight to get you home. There is a strong suspicion that Ryanair in particular "cancels" flights in order to consolidate poor selling flights. Furthermore, they deceive and lie to customers. I was stranded in Bergamo after Ryanair cancelled the last flight. After talking to their agent, I was told that there were no available seats on the next 3 days flights. However, when I went online, they were prepared to sell me a seat for 300 Euro on a flight the following day. This arrogant attitute to customers is outrageous and is wrong no matter how much you have paid. You should also remember that many of Ryanairs passengers have paid a high price for their tickets, particularly if they were not able to book far in advance, but are treated exactly the same. I accept that when things do wrong, you should buy a hotel yourself, but the basic duty to get you home in a timely manner should be enforced. The analagy with trains is not really valid. Most train journeys begin and end in the same country and reasonably priced alternatives can usually be found, such as buses, etc. However, when you are stranded at the last minute in foreign country, the cost of getting home can be massive and Ryanair's aggressive anti-customer attitude needs to be curbed. They compound the problem by forcing customers to pay them for their bad service. If they cancel a flight and you wish to transfer to another flight, they give you a premium line number to call and I have been on hold for over 40 minutes. This is bordering on a scam. Not only will we leave you stranded, but we will charge you for it. I don't fly with them any longer..but customers are entitled to be protected from the arrogance of the Michael O'Leary's of this world, who treats customers and his low paid staff like a Victorian Robber Baron.

[whoopie]

I was caught up in the fog problems with Easyjet just before christmas and had to catch the train from Paris to Liverpool. Cost around £400.I Sent in all receipts for travel plus refreshments and two weeks later received full payment, no quibbles.I suspect Ryanair would have been a different story.

[curser]

jimworcs, Patient: "Dr, Dr when I stick my finger in my eye it hurts"
Dr "then stop
"There is a strong suspicion that Ryanair in particular "cancels" flights in order to consolidate poor selling flights.... gosh really.

This arrogant attitute to customers is outrageous and is wrong no matter how much you have paid. You should also remember that many of Ryanairs passengers have paid a high price for their tickets,....do tell

This is bordering on a scam....get away out of that!!

You have decided not to travel with them again, well done. here are some other things to avoid, leaving your fingers in the door when closing, cutting your toe nails with a scythe, and of course sticking your finger in your eye. regards curser.

[jimworcs]

Fair enough. I will try to avoid sticking my fingers in my eye, but I still think there should be a law against Michael O'Leary sticking his fingers in my eye and gouging it out.
:}

[curser]

so do eye jim, regards curser.

[jimworcs]

By the way, I am by no means anti LoCo. Easyjet are miles better, as evidenced above, Southwest are great, BMIBaby are good too.

[TheGorrilla]

Certain lo cost outfits are resopnsible for the tacky cattle like way airlines treat passengers. If it weren't for this lo cost rubbish I don't think the cut price, cut quality nonsence would have degraded the industry as a whole, so much. I think it may also have been an influence in the current eco debates. If air travel weren't so cheap and affordable by so many we wouldn't suffer so much congestion and with it the much complained about polution.

[Lost_ethics]

Whoopie you lucky :mad: similar thing happened whilst we were in Amsterdam (Family of 4...) Told to book a hotel and taxi's and keep the receipts. (This must of been 9-10PM) Send off receipts with complaints form when we get home and what do we get in return? A letter saying no you aint getting a penny from us, regards, thomsonfly. So we're taking it further.

[fyrefli]

easyJet also reimbursed me the difference when the only way I could get in to BRS at the start of "runway debacle weekend" was to fly in Business Class on what I believe turned out to be the last KLM in.

As in most industries, there are not just differences between certain grades of company but also between the companies within those grades. And it most certainly *is* the buyer's responsibility to find out about that before purchasing the product.

Watchdog is generally a comedy programme; watch it any other way and you end up just wanting to yell at the collection of dupes, whingers, naifs and generally unreasonable sods who make up most of the complainants.

[mojocvh]

wasnt there a program all about RyA and the way not only the firm but also the operators attitude to their "fair" fare paying passengers ?

[StudentInDebt]

For those of you who don't think that airline customers are entitled by law to hotel accomodation in the event of a flight cancellation you might want to go and have a read of Regulation (EC) 261/2004. You will, no doubt, be surprised to learn that your customers are entitled to all sorts of things if the your carrier cancels or delays a flight or if they they are denied boarding for other reasons, amazingly it makes no distinction as to whether the customer has paid 1p or £1000 for a ticket.

Whether or not it is fair that the leglislation only applied to airlines and not trains or buses is somthing you can take up with your MEP, I wouldn't hold out much hope though.

[Rwy in Sight]

SiD makes a good point. There is an EU regulation regarding pax support when flights are cancelled or are overbooked. This is a legal document and it has to be obeyed. I am very concerned when a company, a govermnet, or an individual pick the laws and regulations they follow. I am wondering what would be the reaction if a company refused to pay taxes, landing fees or meet some other regulation imposed by the authorities...

Rwy in Sight

[Taildragger67]

Jimworcs,

Go were great. :{

[jimworcs]

but Easyjet are not too bad, especially compared to the "MOL" experience if anything goes wrong.

[TheGorrilla]

There seem to be alot of people here claiming rights that may not actually exsist if they checked the small print. Like the title of this thread says "Flying above the law??". Funny, I can only assume that that means flying a public transport aircraft on a revenue flight higher than the service ceiling stated in the AOM. Otherwise you need to take up any complaints with the relevant "fair trade" body.

[StudentInDebt]

I think the thread title is very accurate, some airlines have adopted a stonewall approach to complying with the law - airlines fly and they are ignoring the law. Whilst there is a body to complain to as with most industry regulators in the UK they are toothless - their advice is to write to the airline and if you fail to get satisfaction the industry regulator for this legislation (the AUC) will do nothing. As with most things in this country the best recourse the consumer has is the courts, a summons arriving in the post usually spurs most airlines to get on with paying out.