What Do We Have Left

[barnstormer1968]

Having just read that the Jaguar is to be retired, I am left wondering if the Royal Air Force actually exists as an air force any longer!
Please don't be offended if you are AT, maritime or SH (even though there is little new and shiny to show for any of those fleets).

Yes we have Harrier's (but can only scrape up a few for deployment)
We don't have Sea Harrier (yes it's RN, but hope you get my drift here)
We will no longer have Jaguar
Typhoon is in the future, so of no operational use.
Dave, well need I say more on that.
Tornado ADV, no use in Afghanistan
Tornado GR4. ?

Do we actually have anything left, or am I missing something!
I am asking this, as when in military service, I was proud to be part of a professional group of people, doing as good a job as we could with limited equipment. But this seems to be going beyond a joke.
Sorry for this mini novel, but while out walking recently, I have regularly seen Sea King MK4's (or are they MK6 now), and cant help feeling both utmost respect, as well as trepidation that these professional, and skilled crews will soon be off to area's where their worn out cab's just are not up to the job.

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

What we have left is a bunch of lads and lasses, the majority of whom are busting their balls (or equivalent) in very difficult circumstances to get the job done. To that end it beggars belief that them in the big house seem to be doing their damdest to make these loyal hardworking folks lives more difficult on an almost daily basis.

[Gnd]

Still got the Army and Navy, if that helps?

[3 bladed beast]

Tony Blair is still left.......

[Hill Walker]

3bb,

Not often you see 'Tony Blair' and 'left' in the same sentence these days...

HW

[Roadster280]

I read somewhere the other day that the Canberra equipped 35 squadrons in the RAF. Not 35 Sqn, but quantity thirty five squadrons. Maybe that would be too many to justify today, but things do seem to be "jam tomorrow", with plenty of equipment programs in the offing, e.g. F35, Typhoon, MRA4, FSTA, more Merlins and Chinooks. I'm sure the esteemed readership could be quick to point out obvious flaws in all of these equipment programs, but what really matters is what is fielded TODAY.

[FATTER GATOR]

Barnstormer, you say -

'Tornado IDV, no use in Afghanistan'

Where is it any use?

[228 OCU]

Yeah, and Airfix went tits-up last year... What is this country coming to.




If in doubt BANG OUT!

[ZH875]

I read somewhere the other day that the Canberra equipped 35 squadrons in the RAF. Not 35 Sqn, but quantity thirty five squadrons. Maybe that would be too many to justify today, but things do seem to be "jam tomorrow", with plenty of equipment programs in the offing, e.g. F35, Typhoon, MRA4, FSTA, more Merlins and Chinooks. I'm sure the esteemed readership could be quick to point out obvious flaws in all of these equipment programs, but what really matters is what is fielded TODAY.
Ahh, that would be the World Class Wikipedia, home of all the facts you will ever need.

However, this (http://www.bywat.co.uk/canframes.html)(look under the 'squadrons' button in the left margin) states: The RAF had 62 Canberra squadrons over the aircraft's time in service as well as numerous "Flights" and "Sections"

It then shows a table: The table below lists all the RAF squadrons that flew the Canberra and shows the squadron badge, the type flown, where based and brief details of the unit markings employed (if any).

[barnstormer1968]

You need to see the bigger picture in all this.
Stop thinking of the Tornado IDV as a jet aircraft.. And think of it as a PROP aircraft. as in PROPAGANDA. I watched a news report from Iraq recently, where a large part of the reporting was that R.A.F. Tornado's were flying "top cover" for a U.S. air raid. I couldn't help feeling relieved for the U.S. crews, just in case nasty locals managed to fling rocks up high enough to be a threat... Oh hang on a minute, wasn't the day labour wanted to hide something bad. Must just be a co-incidence.

As for another post, stating at least we still have the army and navy, I'm not sure on that one either.

[Finrider]

Believe you may mean ADV (Air Defence Varient aka F3) rather than IDV. The Tornado operating in Iraq currently is the IDS (Interdiction/Strike aka GR4). The top cover we provide is CAS and the air raid was a formation of Blackhawks carrying out a tactical landing in a hostile environment. They were not just having rocks thrown at them and were infact extremely grateful for our support.

Regards,

Finrider

[barnstormer1968]

Please accept my apology for my typo. Yes I meant F3 ADV.
Also I fully realise how hard all of you guys/girls are working, but bearing in mind that MOST of the British population can't tell a Tornado from a VC10 (inc the BBC). The report went along the lines of Tornado FIGHTERS providing top cover for U.S. Aircraft. No mention of Blackhawk's etc. Had it said "Tornado GR4's providing CAS for U.S. Blackhawks" then that would have been a different matter (as in thousands of feet lower). The point was, I believe the story had more to do with something happening in the UK, rather than where you are. Thus the PROPAGANDA bit.

Barnstormer1968

[Melchett01]

I did hear a vicious rumour a few days ago that we had some morale left.

However, apparently following a review it was deemed to be surplus to requirements and is going to be sold to a Japanese bank to fund the costs of the new headed notepaper for HQ Air.

[Old Ned]

I think I read somewhere that many years ago the US provided a graph that showed the rising cost of aircraft against the falling military budget. The result was that the US military could afford only one aircraft and the USAF, US Marine Corps and US Navy would take turns to fly it. (Don't tell Brown or Browne)!! :ugh:

[Melchett01]

Old Ned ..... if you think that is bad, just have a look at this:

USAF Might Cut Pay For Surge

The Air Force’s top officer said Wednesday that if nearly $1 billion in personnel funds taken from the service to pay for combat in Iraq and Afghanistan isn’t restored by the end of the summer, Airmen and civilian employees might not get their pay.

Due to a congressional delay in approving a wartime supplemental funding bill this year, the Pentagon pulled about $880 million from the Air Force’s personnel accounts to make up for a shortfall it warned lawmakers would come in mid-April.



The rest of the article is here http://http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,133428,00.html?wh=wh

Now for God's sake don't tell Gordon THAT or he'll be getting more great ideas!

[soddim]

One needs to update one's knowledge before knocking the ADV/F3. The reality now is that it is a very capable weapons system within a less capable airframe/engine combination and, to a great extent, the weapons system and associated avionics updates compensate for performance deficits.

I know almost nothing about how far the Typhoon has come in that direction but I'd lay a bet that most Typhoon pilots would love to have the current weapons system capabilities already working in the ADV/F3.

That's not to say that the ADV/F3 is the best fighter but it's not too shabby. Put two well-trained RAF aircrew in it and it is a match for most single-seaters when the scenario suits it.

[Kitbag]

Good people at the coalface...

[MrFlibble]

"Lions led by donkeys", to quote General Erich Ludendorff.

More like Lions, led by donkeys, and given corks on their teeth for health + safety of the enemy... :ugh:


Answer this - if, right now, we had another Falklands, would we win it? Hate to say it, but with the mistakes the civil serpents at Defence Procurement (or whatever its called now) have made over the years...

Im not entirely convinced we would. :bored:

[Razor61]

[Quote]Still got the Army and "Navy", if that helps?[\Quote]

You having a laugh?
:(

anyway:-
Sea Harrier - gone
Jaguar - gone
Canberra - gone (But a civvie contractor will be operating it??)
Hunter - gone (but the MoD are leasing 3 for Military contracts in the UK)

What's next, the Sea Vixen and Vampire back in?

:mad:

[NutLoose]

Well they have just completed a refit of the RAF last heavy bomber and it was out on it's airtest today, one wonders how long it will be till that adopts a desert scheme,

Ahhh the sound of four Merlins in close formation, and I don't mean the ones with the props on the roof.

[NutLoose]

Yeah, and Airfix went tits-up last year... What is this country coming to.




If in doubt BANG OUT!


Airfix are back I believe.........

[The Swinging Monkey]

Soddim,
You have been at the old cooking sherry again mate - the F3 a good weapopns platform?? now you are having a laugh!

The last time I went tanking in my E-3, the tanker had to come DOWN for the F-3, 'cos it couldn't get up that high! and it was empty. And the tanker was older than both of us put together!
Hmmmm I rest my case.

TSM

[Maple 01]

Just to get my pedantic quota (PQ) up, Ludendorff didn't say 'lions lead by donkeys' the quote was made-up by historian who's name escapes me at the moment and has been taken as fact ever since, especially by those whose anti-establishment agenda it fits (when discussing WW1) Subsequently it's been taken up by the world and his wife, no problem with that, just felt the need to point out its mythical origin


oh, I know, I'll get me gascape....

[1.3VStall]

Don't worry chaps, the MOD has just decided that the light at the end of the tunnel is to be turned off as an economy measure!

[Hill Walker]

I once thought I could see the light at the end of the tunnel, but it was just some ba$tard with a torch bringing me more work...

[Archimedes]

Just to help Maple's pedant quotient...

Alan Clark, that great wielder of the old actualite was the historian.

The line - or almost all of it - was first used (at least in the 20th Century) as far as can be ascertained by a Japanese officer who claimed that the Russians were 'Lions led by asses'. Source being Sir Ian Hamilton's diaries of his time when a staff officer assigned to observe the goings-on in the Russo-Japanese war.

[Tigs2]

Why can't we use the Lancaster in the BBMF as part of our heavy bomber inventory, and then we also have the Vulcan that i believe is just about done (or is it already up and flying);)

[Archimedes]

PFI deal with the Vulcan Operating Company and BAE to provide XH588 for long-range bombing missions and selected air shows?

[Release-Authorised]

To save a bit more money.....
We won't need a F1250 ID card any more because we'll all know each other!:uhoh:

[Hill Walker]

There is a real opportunity here - we could raffle off a place in the jump seat, probably lots of idiots out there who would pay big bucks to go on a REAL bombing mission. Maybe buy some spares with the proceeds?

[wokkameister]

You've still got 6 SH Squadrons operating 3 aircraft types, and a Rotary SAR fleet.
You probably haven't come across them as:

A. There always deployed.

B. As they aren't fast jets (most of which serve little purpose) they tend to be dismissed by the 'real RAF'.

Suggest you look at the sharp end a little closer.

Wokka Out

[soddim]

No, Swinging Monkey, emphatically no cooking sherry - a few Timothy Taylor's maybe.

You're right about tanking height but the F3 does not normally have its' probe in the nosebag when it engages the opposition - nor does it have to fly so slowly. Your E3 might be happy below 300kts IAS but the F3 only needs to be that slow for tanking and landing.

In its' operating environment it is a capable fighter - not the best but the best we have right now.

[Old Ned]

Ta. As Cpl Fraser (Dad's Army) would say "We're doomed, we're definately doomed".

However, we are not!! The boys (and girls) will raise to the occasion despite slack leadership at the top and the :mad: politicians.

My stamping ground was FI and the work the boys did was unbelivable. (Even if PhanDet were olympic whimps!!

[WhiteOvies]

Soddim - only the best since the Sea Harrier retired! Now that was avery capable weapons system within a less capable airframe/engine combination

I am biased but I am not WEBF in disguise! Prepared for incoming as the thread title is "What do we have left?"!

[FATTER GATOR]

soddim - granted, but since the F3 operating environment seems to be UK QRA, why can't we just have a single sqn, split into 2 flights, Northern at Lossie and Southern at Marham to cover Q? Then scrap the rest, close a few stations and then put all the saved money and personnel into something really useful like SH or AT.

[nav attacking]

Just to put the F3 into perspective. Even UK Q is questionable. The biggest air threat to the UK is a hijacked airliner as per Sept 11. However, just how will the F3 ever get up to intercept and V ID the A330 or 737 in the cruise at FL330 or above?
I have heard that a nimrod returning from a trip up North (back in the days when there were serviceable ones) was to be intercepted by the Q jet which was launched on the MR2's arrival at the UK FIR boundary. It eventually managed the intercept as the nimrod was descending to Kinloss passing through F190 some 40 mins later. Then again I guess the only city under threat was Aberdeen!!
Wouldn't give the powers that be too much time to make the decision to shoot!! However, I wouldn't expect them to even make a decision.:ugh:

[FATTER GATOR]

Nav attacking- in fairness AMRAAM could probably bridge the airframe performance gap for the F3. Typhoon may have its uses after all. As soon as they are ready to take on that role, they could bin the F3 and put the resources somewhere else (NHS knowling our luck). I'm pretty sure a Typhoon could catch an airliner.

[BellEndBob]

Yeah, but could the VC10 Tanker that would have to accompany it?

[Art Field]

Just so I do not get accused of posting a one word answer. YES.

[soddim]

There's a deal of misinformation here - take it from one who has done it - VIDs in the F3 are OK well above FL330. If you want to fly in close formation with the target, that is a different ball game.

Cannot comment on the report of the Nimrod intercept - would need a lot more information. However, I cannot envisage any performance problem that would preclude an intercept on this target and a VID. Weather might be a factor - one normally needs to see the target to get a positive ident.

[wokawoka]

Wokameister, note that no one answered your post. Do you think it was ignored because it contained the acronym SH, which is not part of the "real" important Air Force.....:mad:
We are still here, and definitly have a guaranteed job, which is more than can be said about some other airframes.

[Truckkie]

Lots of people getting worried about what we have left - the wokka boys are correct - these people are worried about the future of their platforms!

What we have left is a very capable SH fleet and an over-stretched but very competent Tactical AT fleet, both working flat-out in various theatres since 2001.

:D

[daze_gone_buy]

You were lucky... for me it was just the oncoming train!!:eek:

[Green Flash]

How long before long range opticals slaved to a radar can do the vis ID and a SAM does the rest?:eek: (Yes, I know, cloud etc ..... ) It's not like you have to dogfight with an Airbus. The bu55er might win!