CX Freighter Fleet Upgrades

[Cruiseclimb]

I know this has been covered, but I can't seem to find the info.. How long are upgrades running in North America on the freighter fleet?

[Penske]

For the North American based 744F, there are two pilots in the middle of the command course now who are still shy of the 2 year mark. Two pilots just completed the command course and they have been here 2 1/2 years.

[cpdude]

Looks like you can have it if you want. 8+ years of a rotten schedule for an early left seat...not worth it!

As an alternative...fly 3 years and transfer over to pax making almost as much as you would a Freighter Capt. but with a life.

[Cruiseclimb]

That's pretty interesting.. I'm showing my ignorance here, but if I understand it, a 3-4 yr FO on the pax fleet makes almost as much as a Captain on the freighter fleet? As a pax fleet FO, do you move to HK? Thanks for the information, it's been really helpful.

[cpdude]

You can move to HK if you want but most have stayed in NA! Current Pax 744 bases in NA are LAX, SFO and YVR.

[ScratchF15]

I keep hearing about how bad freighter captains' rosters are. How is it that they can be so much different from the freighter FO's? I understand the need for a second FO for the ANC-HKG sector. That FO will either be ANC-based or deadhead from another NA freighter base. But why the disparity in schedules?

[Drunknsailor]

The reason for the desparity is that we have "some" retreads that have a Hong Kong roster on the freighter. That means that they mostly do the HKG-ANC sectors leaving a lot of the NA captains to mostly just go up to ANC and then back and forth between the various NA ports. THat involves a lot more days worked to accomplish teh same amount of flying. Throw in the fact that the freighter roster is a bit unstable to begin with, and voila.

[Sqwak7700]

This all depends what you are comparing. If you elect to stay in NA, then you make slightly more as a freighter captain than as an FO on the passenger fleet. You would make about $900 USD more a month being in the left seat of the freighter.

If, after your 3 years freighter FO commitment you decide to go to HK on the pax fleet as opposed to upgrading on the freighter, then you would be making substantially more. Including 13th month, 15% PF, and max housing, you would make about $190,000 USD a year (1 USD = 7.8 HKD conversion). The freigher captain scale, including the 15% PF, would be about $143,000 a year.

This assumes no overtime or flight duty pay. I will say, freighter Captain's these days are busier than a 2 cent hooker, so they make quite a bit on ovetime pay.

So, the decision is personal. If your goal is solely money, then you would be wiser for taking pax fo in HK. If you are looking to bail, then I would recommend the quick upgrade. Get some 747-400 PIC longhaul time and you can sign your ticket to just about anywhere on the globe. If you want to stay in NA but cherish your time off, then you are better off with pax FO n NA. :ok:

[Cruiseclimb]

This was exactly the information I was looking for....

Thank you gentlemen :ok:

[druglord]

New question ... anyone know how long the sectors are? They were asking stuff like that in interview No. 1. ANC-HGK ANC-LAX ANC-JFK ANC-ATL ANC-DFW, ANC-YVR, ANC-ORD?

[striker1]

OK. Can you go from freighter FO in North America to PAX FO without going to Hong Kong? Also 36mo. is the required time to be based in HK to be considered for command, correct?
Thanks guys.

[HurryUp&Retire]

dont you start at year 1 of the pay scale if you switch from rt to left at CX?

[cpdude]

OK. Can you go from freighter FO in North America to PAX FO without going to Hong Kong?

Also 36mo. is the required time to be based in HK to be considered for command, correct?

1. Yes.

2. No. There is no required time to be based in HK to be considered for a command. When you transfer from Freighter to Pax (and elect to go to HK) you can leave HK and take a base whenever a base is open and your seniority can hold if more are asking for the base than there are positions. Later, if you elect to go to HK from NA Pax to HK then you must remain in HK for 3 years before you take a base again. This rule does not apply when coming from freighter to pax!

dont you start at year 1 of the pay scale if you switch from rt to left at CX?

Yes, in CX you start year 1 Captain pay as a new Captain even if you have been in CX for 10 years as an FO.

[ScratchF15]

And where do you start on the Pax FO pay chart after 3 years as a freighter FO? (JFO, FO, SFO)

[cpdude]

And where do you start on the Pax FO pay chart after 3 years as a freighter FO? (JFO, FO, SFO)

Pax FO Year 4.

[striker1]

Cpdude thx for the info. I'm very interested in CX however being a gringo with a wife that is not all interested in moving to HK, it may not be the best move for myself. I'm trying to find out. I'm sure these questions have been asked here before so sorry if they are redundant.
Just for clarification, is it possible if your senority holds to go from lets say, LAX freighter FO, to LAX pax FO, to LAX Capt? Has it ever been done without being based in HK? Also is the salary based on a minimum monthly hour guarantee like most U.S. airlines? If so what is it-hourly, and what is the pay overide beyond that.
Also, just for kicks, IS morale among the pilot group really as bad as these forums make it out to be? Or is it just living in HK that does it? Or maybe both? Thx

[cpdude]

is it possible if your senority holds to go from lets say, LAX freighter FO, to LAX pax FO, to LAX Capt? Has it ever been done without being based in HK?

Also is the salary based on a minimum monthly hour guarantee like most U.S. airlines? If so what is it-hourly, and what is the pay overide beyond that.

Also, just for kicks, IS morale among the pilot group really as bad as these forums make it out to be? Or is it just living in HK that does it? Or maybe both? Thx

The easy answer is no, but it has been done.
What you can do is freighter FO, to LAX pax FO and/or LAX freighter Capt/ LAX pax Capt. Would take you 10-12 years to complete the cycle. 2 have done it the way you suggested but they waited until they were very senior (16 years) then took a command based in NA.

In CX you are paid a salary not an hourly wage based on gauranteed hours. You are rostered up to 84 hours and paid the same even if you get only 70 hours so it works the same but it's posted as a flat salary. Overtime is a percentage of your salary and it increases as you hit 3 different brackets increasing over 84 hours.

It is a strange company. If you are needy, you will hate it because they don't care. IE, your wife gets very sick or your Mom dies or you need a day off for a special event etc. It's like pulling teeth and chances you won't get it off. But if you do, count on losing vacation time. Like I said, don't be needy. For others, it seams to be OK.

Good Luck...but try SouthWest first!

[jetset]

The above strategy may not work in the future with the type change on the pax fleet from 744 to 777.
I think that it is technically possible though to upgrade to command on a base on the pax fleet and may be easier once it is a twin which is normally the only type you can upgrade on (whilst on the pax fleet)
That said there may be some base protection and a type change allowed (there is always the joker, a one off type request) if you upgrade to freighter command particularly in the light of a shortage of applicants.
In other words I think it is entirely possible to stay on the base if you are prepared to wait.
js

[ScratchF15]

Just wanted to say thanks for answering NJ'er questions so persistently. From your posts, it is obvious that you you have a very balanced perspective, which I really appreciate.

In regards to your post about seeking SWA first, I would say it depends on the type of flying you prefer. Having done military and regional / national-type flying, I am certain I don't want to fly 3-7 segments per day for SWA the rest of my career. Been there and done that.:ouch: That's just me though. I want to get it over all at once and have lots of days off - which is why I am drawn to the long haul at CX.

I start in June. Do you think SFO and LAX will be 777 in three to four years? Or still use the whale? Will NA PAX DEFO be a potential barrier to switching over to pax in the future?

Also, if the -200F's go away sooner rather than later, will inter-Asia flying on the -400F be on the roster for NA pilots? I realize predicting the future is difficult. Curious as to your thoughts? Thanks in advance.

[cpdude]

Just wanted to say thanks for answering NJ'er questions so persistently. From your posts, it is obvious that you you have a very balanced perspective, which I really appreciate.

In regards to your post about seeking SWA first, I would say it depends on the type of flying you prefer. Having done military and regional / national-type flying, I am certain I don't want to fly 3-7 segments per day for SWA the rest of my career. Been there and done that. That's just me though. I want to get it over all at once and have lots of days off - which is why I am drawn to the long haul at CX.

I start in June. Do you think SFO and LAX will be 777 in three to four years? Or still use the whale? Will NA PAX DEFO be a potential barrier to switching over to pax in the future?

Also, if the -200F's go away sooner rather than later, will inter-Asia flying on the -400F be on the roster for NA pilots? I realize predicting the future is difficult. Curious as to your thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Thanks for your comments. I try to keep emotions out of my answers but I'm not always successul.

As for SWA, it's the exact opposite to ULH flying as I'm sure you're aware of. Both have there pros and cons. ULH flying gives a great amount of time off but you get 1 sector a month and chronic fatigue can easily set in. After a few years of this you tend to hate flying but accept it's still a good job as far as pay/time-off is concerned.

I believe the official plan as of today is for NA to be served only by the 777. I don't buy it! I think we may order the 747-800 in the next 12-24 months and have both flying to NA. We need 4 x 777's to replace 3 x 744's out of LAX. If I'm wrong and 3-4 years pax in NA is all 777, then you could use your JOKER and transfer to the 777 with a USA base.

As for Asian flying, I'm sure you would do some but it's hard to fly NA freighter guys 3 sectors over to HKG then fly regional and another 2-3 sectors back to their base. I guess a worst case scenario would be 2 x 10-12 day patterns with paid overtime (IE. 92-100 hours).

Good luck!

[rjmore]

I'm with Scratch on this one. Just two days ago I had a 15.5 hour duty day with multiple ground stops, whining pax, no food, and a reduced rest overnight to boot. The ground stop/delay programs are very tiring on a 5 leg day, then running to the only open place to eat which is ALWAYS McDonald's.
Of course the best part of the regional pilot 15.5 hour duty day is only getting paid for 7.5 of those hours.

I'm itching to try something different. It'll be nice to get rid of the smart a** comments from the pax too, as if it is my entire goal in life to make them late. I personally fired up my weather and tornado machine the other day just to screw with them......give me boxes quick!

[cpdude]

rjmore,

Sounds more the life of a third tier carrier than SWA. Agreed, no life and no money is not a good job.:)

[rjmore]

cpdude,

SWA is the same life just for A LOOOOOTTTTTT more money. They get more days off too since they really pack in the flying when they do work. All my buds over there like it but they are also always exhausted. It's the multiple legs that get so tiring, especially when you add in all the other stuff like ground stops, deicing etc.

Anyway, any regional airline here is definitely third tier in the biz. How some guys make a career out of it is beyond me.

[hog tied]

...... so the real test is..... how many leave SWA? Just those retiring and kicking screaming about it! Just look at who has spearheaded the retirement age change to 65 in the US.

Everyone there as happy as a pilot could be...., who would want to work there?

Exhausted? Probably. It takes a lot of energy to laugh at work all day, then continue to laugh all the way to the bank.:ok:

[rjmore]

Well, guys who aspire to SWA aim for it and are very happy to get it. It's not for me though so I have no intention of applying. Those that do, more power to ya! Maybe I'll change my tune soon enough but not just yet.

Although, it is not quite as utopian as it seems either.

[Sike]

I think SWA's days of unprecedented financial success and fantastical pilot wages are coming to an end. Look at what they get paid. Look at fuel prices and the expiration of their fuel hedges. Look at the saturation in the U.S. domestic airline market.

They are going to have to change their business model... i.e. larger aircraft and international routes if they want to maintain their profitability. They are looking into it with 787's, but it is going to be a tough transition. However, their management may just be sharp enough to pull it off.

[Mink]

People have been predicting the dethronement of SWA for a long time. I'll believe it when I see it; they seem to have the whole biz model thing down pretty well.