How hard is an IR?

[Laggie]

On many places I read they say that taking an IR is great but not all make it. How hard is it really?

And why is it hard?

Thanx / Lars

[Hummingfrog]

Depends on how good a pilot you are.

If you have lots of spare capacity while controlling the height, speed and direction of the helicopter with sole reference to instruments to tight limits while talking on the radio and following the strictures of a procedural approach - it is relatively easy;)

If you have problems with any of the above and feel maxed out at any time - it is hard if not impossible and you will fail.

As an IRE I saw both ends of the spectrum along with all the shades in between:E

HF

[Twisted Rigging]

An IRE HummingFrog, when did that happen???:confused:

[Laggie]

Where or how can you test yourself?

I mean it´s not worth putting alot of time and money and later realise that your not up for it.

[helimutt]

My advice to anyone wishing to undertake the IR course, get yourself along to somewhere where you might possibly do the course. They should have a simulator available (many places have sims available if only procedural trainers which are cheap to use) and get the guy who will be teaching the course to give you an assessment in it. If he's any good, (and honest) he'll be able to tell if you'll make it or not. The place where I did my IR have a policy of testing you first to see how you get on and if you do get on the course, if they later feel you probably won't make it, they'll tell you soon enough. It'll save money and their pass rate too. Not many companies these days turn customers away but this one does. Can't fault them for that.:ok:
For some stange reason I never got kicked out, but after my IRT(s), maybe they should have?:O
Some people say it's the hardest test you can take for flying. There's a fair bit to learn but it's a lot of multitasking and accuracy. If you struggle with just the visual flying alone, don't bother. Save your cash. buy a house instead.:E

[Hummingfrog]

Twisted Rigging

Master Green and IRE on Wessex and SeaKing - you should have experienced my simulated barrel roll while you had your eyes closed waiting for a U/P:E

(some of us had a life before becoming bus drivers;) )

HF

[Francis Frogbound]

The exam is intimidating, but is basically doing a huge amount of work in the right order.The accuracy required comes with practise, more for some, less for others.

From personal experience of doing the tests CAA rotary and fixed and more recently FAA if you are put up for the test then there is no reason for you to fail, and the examiners take that viewpoint. They are looking for all the right things in the right places, if accuracy or brain wobbles they expect it due to pressure, if you can put minor glitches straight behind you and get on with the rest of the test you should be alright.

The IR is a daunting challenge until it's behind you, however, like all aviation qualifications it really is another ticket to carry on learning on your own.

FF

[gulliBell]

I find IFR a lot easier than a lot of other stuff I have to do, particularly in comparison to precision sling loads to mountain tops, and operating at unprepared sites, for example.

[Hoveronly]

So where should I reccommend people to go for their course??

[NickLappos]

Let me reinforce what the others are saying:

The IR is a new layer of difficulty and knowledge, because the flying is not only more precise, it is done with less adequate cues (little needles and attitude indicators instead of big horizons and roads/masts/features) and much more mental exercise while wiggling the sticks. This means that the work you do under IMC is the same or worse as compared to VFR, but must shrink to about 35% of your total to make room for the extra work you will have to do in IMC. The other 65% is then available to add the work of diagnosing from those crummy sources what the aircraft is actually doing (30%), then figure out what it must really do (another 35%). Remember, mental workload is actually tougher than manual workload, and will kill you faster (70% of all accidents are due to bone-head mistakes).

How does a human do this workload shrinkage? By practicing, the workload you now spend manually controlling becomes very much lower, because your brain re-wires itself each time you do a task. Thus the current 70% workload for stick-wiggling drops, and leave room for the extra.

It must be said, many VFR pilots won't be able to stretch themselves to IFR tasking, mostly because they can't or don't get into a truly intense training program (most civil pilots do ad hoc courses, of course - "I can fly 2 hours this week because the family is at Mom's house.") In the military, the number of wash-outs at instrument phase is not great, because the entire system is geared to get you that training.

How can a civil guy get that "stretching"?
1) Use of simulation is great, like using PC games to work up a fast, snappy cross check, and the mental means to "see" the route ahead and think of alternatives while flying. Even crummy sims are very effective in building the art of juggling all the balls.

2) Pure book knowledge should be impeccable - every second of doubt about "what do I do now?" is worth 30% of workload. Mostly because the self-doubt and second-guessing are real time and mental capacity wasters. The more you know flat cold, the easier it is to fly under the gauges.

This all being said, instrument flying is very rewarding because you are tested, have nowhere to hide, and feel like you did something when you fly an ILS with the needles glued to the gauge!

[VeeAny]

2) Pure book knowledge should be impeccable - every second of doubt about "what do I do now?" is worth 30% of workload. Mostly because the self-doubt and second-guessing are real time and mental capacity wasters. The more you know flat cold, the easier it is to fly under the gauges.
Possibly the 2nd best piece of information you could ever know about IF. (2nd only to keeping the thing under control)

One of the worst things you can do is not know what the kit is telling you.
I don't know what percentage of information processing would be taken up by 'Oh f**k what does that mean' but I think its probably very high.

Thanks Nick for a succinct way to put over a life saving point.

V.
P.S.
Is it possible to fly an ILS with the needles glued to the gauge! ? I Wish I Could !

[NickLappos]

VeeAny,
At KLM Noodzee, I instructed a Dutch pilot named Hans Gomplemann back in 1974 in an S-58T under the hood and in real goo. There was nothing I could do to Hans that would make the ILS needles come out of the donut! I turned the sas off, cut engines, picked turbulent afternoon, even flipped the hardover switches in flight (yea, I did.) It did not matter, that aircraft was his every second of the time.
I wonder what happened to Hans?

[IHL]

PCs are great for practicing holds, hold entries, and intercepts. When you get them figured out on a PC get a buddy to give you rediculously complicated holds and intercepts until you are absoulutly impossible to fool.

A part from the flying skills you really have to understand what's going on with the airspace and anticipate what will happen next.

On numerous occaissons; I have spent hours planning my route, filing it, knowing exactly what the clearance would be only to be given a clearance at call up that was COMPLETELY different and unexpected, or brief an approach and then they change the runway.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is very dynamic and it's not just the flying skills; you have to be able to think in 3D and expect and anticipate changes.

[JimL]

Nick,

That is an excellent description of the adjustment of mental processing and practice/recency/experience required to fly under instruments.

It is also the reason why SVS will not provide a solution for loss-of-control accidents that result from inadvertent IMC or insidious reduction of the visual cue environment (usually at night or in condition of low visibility).

Jim

[scooter boy]

Anybody going to mention the autopilot?
It flies far more precisely than I can in the soup.
I wouldn't go into IMC without one, the flying then simply becomes systems monitoring.
Sure you need to be able to take over for the approach or if the A/P goes inop but a good autopilot is worth every penny.

Integrated glass cockpits are also a great help, they truly provide a massive workload reduction.

IMHO successful (uneventful) IFR flying comes down to good planning and systems management, I choose to hand fly as little as possible.

SB

[scooter boy]

Sorry chaps, I have just re-read the thread properly and realise that I was not responding to the original question in my above post.

Training for the IR is about multi-tasking in a stressful environment - what I think is not taught well is planning wrt weather and personal operational minima.

It is not an easy undertaking by any means but not so difficult as to be outside of the capabilities of most pilots.

SB

[Phil77]

I heard two completely different opinions on the difficulties transitioning from one "world" to the other:
A friend of mine considered the JAA instrument a breeze after having his FAA licence - another one said that his JAA instrument was more difficult than the FAA licence :confused: .

My attempt to explain: maybe the guy who found it more difficult had some problems with advanced systems (autopilot... and... oh yea, two big turbines in the back instead of a lawn mower :rolleyes: ) and the first guy maybe has a blast using computers e.g. in the first place?
Or maybe all that NDB stuff the JAA still uses scares some people off?

I second flungdung: it definately makes you a better pilot holding an instrument rating (even though I remember how glad I was beeing able to look out the window again!). But after that you definatlely hold your assigned altitude naturally - even under VFR.

Phil

[Staticdroop]

The whole process of instrument flying is eased by good cockpit management, knowing what your going to do when you get there and what is required of the procedure. Being able to interpret the plates is vital, your eye should go to the correct part of the plate to gain the information required. Detailed planning of the flight will also help, how much drift are you going to apply in the hold, what entry will be required from various directions, on the approach wind strength and direction will change as you descend, and be certain of your minima.
Apart from that a cheque hanging out of your breast pocket for the examiner.:)
Enjoy it, it will be the most rewarding test you'll probably do.:ok:

[212man]

Without wanting to misinterpret Static's advice, one thing I'd definitely discourage is too much pre planning of hold and aproach timings and drift etc: make sensible corrections and monitor the needles to correct as required (without chasing them). Most definitely, don't get into the habit of photocopying plates and plastering notes and highlights on them. Get into the skill of reading the plate as is: after all, that's how you use them in anger.

I think the points about self discipline and cockpit management are most valid and set the tone of the whole exercise.

Many candidates are very wrapped up with not 'busting the limits' (+/- 100 ft etc) but would be surprised to know how much subjective assessment is made bythe examiner. You could have an apparent bust but make a swift corection within a generally well flown flight, and pass, but fail with a flight that broke no limits but was flown constantly bouncing off the limits and success seemed more luck than judgement/skill! At the end of the day, the examiner must satisfy himself that he feels the candidate is safe, as well as complying with the regulations/limits etc.

[HeliComparator]

Yes its a hard test - I would say the hardest I thing I have done in flying, but a lot of that difficulty is as a result of the build up of stress. If you can just carry out the test in a relaxed manner its so much better. I had once had an IR student who was Vietnamese and he was cool as a cucumber. On the day of the test with the CAA he said "of course I will pass" and, although he was only average in training he put up a pretty good performance and passed easily. Something to do with the culture I thought.

Many students work up to a good standard but on the day, get a panic on and their performance is at its worst. If you can keep the workload below 100% capacity then you have time for the big picture, but once you are at 100% you are on the run and the aircraft will win.


HC

[IHL]

212Man:
In any check pilot course I've had; a momentary excursion caught by the candidate and corrected is not a fail and my not affect the overall assessment of the flight if every thing else went well.
What an examiner will do if the flight is marginal is to use that excursion as a reason to "FAIL" the candidate if he is not comfortable with the overall performance of the flight.

[212man]

IHL, that's what I was saying: lots of candidates think the limits are the be all and end all, but the examiner looks at a lot more than limits in isolation. They are a guide to examiners, not to the candidate!

[332mistress]

Laggie

Your profile doesn't say if you have actualy flown a helicopter. Many people think that they have the ability but when it comes to sitting in the seat with the controls in their hands they freeze or overcontrol.

The usual failure during training is reaching ones mental capacity to assimilate all the information coming in. During critical phases of IMC flight information can arrive from many sources, eyes for the all instruments, ears for the radio and the dreaded inner ear giving you the leans where you head erroneously tells you one thing while the instruments tell the truth.

I have seen good VFR pilots come apart under the stress of IMC - they have spare mental capacity while flying VFR but not enough when in IMC.

The only way you can tell if you have the ability is to try - unfortunately it can be an expensive way to find your limits

332M

[Whirlygig]

Yes flying the plane and talking I believe should be no problem.


Where do you think I got my personal title from??? :}

I had just mastered the art of hovering the damned thing, when my instructor asked me to call up Tower and request a right hand circuit northside. I pressed the button. "XXX Tower, Request right haaaa...... oh ffffuuuucccck". To which my instructor added, "XXX Tower, we can't hover AND talk just yet!"

THAT is when I learned about capacity and, until you've been in the situation, I don't think anyone can predict how they will react! Jeez, I'm a girl; I would never have believed that talking would ever be a problem!!

Cheers

Whirls