When am I P2 and when am I passenger?

[phoneman]

In terms of logging time, if I am sitting in the right hand seat, what determines if I am flying as P2, or merely a passenger? (I am a PPL). Thinking this through the other day it would make sense that I am P2 when either:

- I am competent and qualified to fly the aircraft
- I am under instruction with a qualified instructor

otherwise presumably I am not P2 but just a passenger?

I ask because I have recently flown in the right hand seat of a couple of aircraft with variable pitch propellers which I am not qualified to fly solo. In both cases I took the controls for a while (when up at a safe height) and assisted with navigation. Neither of these was an instructional flight ie the P1 was not a qualified instructor.

[Swede80]

You can log P2 when you are flying as co-pilot in a plane that requires a 2-person crew.

[Life's a Beech]

For any purposes for a UK licence you cannot log any of the time at all. The FAA have a different opinion, but the UK CAA only accept a single pilot in single-crew aircraft, unless it is operating under an AOC that allows multi-crew operations, a commercial flight.

[ringo_1]

Which seat you're in is irrelevant. You can fly solo from the right seat if you want as P1.
As has been said above, you can only log P2 in a multi crew aircraft.

[youngskywalker]

Log whatever you like, it's your personal log book. Won't count towards licence renewals or ratings though.

[Them thar hills]

BT?
If you log any P1 time at all, you have to agree beforehand with the other pilot how you'll split the time. If indeed the LH seat man (or club rules if it's one of theirs) will allow this. If you fly behind a VP or constant speed prop as P1 you have to have relevant differences training signed off in your log-book.
No P2 in little aeroplanes as said.
So it sounds as if you were "speaking ballast" and nothing more. Contrary to advice you have to log what you're entitled to, not what you think it may have been!
:cool:

[Mike Cross]

Contrary to advice you have to log what you're entitled to, not what you think it may have been!
On a point of pedantry, you HAVE to log what the ANO tells you you have to log. You MAY log what the hell you like, but as stated above it won't count towards anything.

[vancouv]

I can't believe how often this keeps coming up. It is quite simple - if you're flying the types of aircraft a PPL is likely to fly, there is no such thing as P2. You're either P1, or PUT if training with an instructor, or P1(S) if you're taking a flight exam with an examiner and pass - if you fail it's back to PUT.

[EGCC4284]

Which seat you're in is irrelevant. You can fly solo from the right seat if you want as P1.
As has been said above, you can only log P2 in a multi crew aircraft.

I think you can only fly from the right hand seat if the left is occupied. The left hand seat person does not even have to be a PPL holder. If you are solo, I have been told that you have to sit in the left hand seat?????????????

Can anyone confirm this

[vancouv]

Assuming the plane is set up to be flown from the left seat, why on earth would you want to fly it from the right solo? In some planes certain controls are only available to the left hand seat. I imagine there are probably club or insurance rules to cover this anyway.

And if an instructor is taking a student up then the guy in the left seat isn't a PPL - I did my very first flight from the left seat and I certainly wasn't :ok:

[False Capture]

You must fly the aircraft in accordance with the Flying Manual/Pilot's Operating Handbook.

Some FM/POHs state that the aircraft must be flown solo from the rear seat for CofG purposes eg, Piper Cub. However, I've never seen a FM/POH which states the aircraft must be flown solo from the left seat.

Group Rules or a Flying Club Order Book may require the left-hand seat to be occupied for take-off and landing. This makes things less complicated with the insurance company following an accident/incident.

[InfraBoy]

Please correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the RAFs EFTS Tutors (Grob 114 I think?) configured for instruction and solo flight from the rh seat to simulate stick in rh and throttle in left. Easier to build the panel the other way around than put a second throttle in on the left? So surely it only matters that you have access to all of the primary and essential controls from where you sit - long time ago I seem to remember flying Pipers that had their fuel valves down on the lh side of the lh seat footwell that were a bugger to reach through to from the rh seat?

[Final 3 Greens]

Assuming the plane is set up to be flown from the left seat, why on earth would you want to fly it from the right solo?

Perhaps the toe brakes are u/s on the left.

Would you still fly it that way?

I think you can only fly from the right hand seat if the left is occupied. The left hand seat person does not even have to be a PPL holder. If you are solo, I have been told that you have to sit in the left hand seat?????????????


I can confirm that, as a general rule, this is nonsense.

[Jinkster]

If two PPLs hour building are wanting to log hours for hour building together then this is not possible to do at the same time.

However.....there is nothing to stop you from doing a crew change in mid air i.e you logging half the trip and your partner the other half!

[pulse1]

jinkster,

I would be interested to know how you log that. E.g. How do you enter From/To and how do you indicate whether you did the landing or not. For some people that could be important in maintaining three landings in 90 days.

I used to do a lot of flying with another PPL and, although it meant I could fly further on the same budget, I did find I was doing less landings/£, but logging the same hours/£.

Now I do a lot more flying and it isn't an issue but I'm just interested.

[Jinkster]

logging of landings. does it really matter?

I fly big aeroplanes now as well as little ones but even if the captain does the take off and landing i still put it in my book as 1 take off and 1 landing.

I cant see how it makes a big deal of difference to be honest.

:hmm:

[Mike Cross]

I would be interested to know how you log that.
You'll have to forgive me for saying that's something that you ought to know, or at least know how to find out, if you hold a license. Ignorance of the Law is, as ever, not an excuse. The times you are required to log are not the take-off and landing times.
Art 35 of the ANO
35 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shall keep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:
....
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable, including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in either capacity;

Take-offs and landings only come ito it for the purpose of the 90 day rule and since there is no requirement to log them it's somewhat difficult to prove whether or not you complied. I normally put "x landings" in the remarks column if there's more than one and if I wanted to be pedantic I'd put "no landing" in remarks if someone else did the landing.

Mike

[lawn_dart]

Regarding the flying-from-right-hand-seat-rule. not sure what the law is in uk but the regs and insurance providers in australia state you can fly an aircraft solo from the right seat providing you have access to all controls and displays. As stated b4 most single pipers are hard to fly right seat due to fuel selector location.

the above doesnt count if the company's ops manual rules otherwise.

ps there might be other reasons for it, but ive seen solo pilots fly from right seat to practice gripping opposite controls for instructing and aerobatics.

[Whirlybird]

Take-offs and landings only come ito it for the purpose of the 90 day rule and since there is no requirement to log them it's somewhat difficult to prove whether or not you complied. I normally put "x landings" in the remarks column if there's more than one and if I wanted to be pedantic I'd put "no landing" in remarks if someone else did the landing.
I think some new JAA logbooks now have a separate column for take-offs and landings. In mine I made a small separate column for them after the Remarks column. I need to know, as I fly fixed-wing aircraft quite rarely, and struggle to stay within the 90-day rule, so I find it very useful.

As for splitting one flight with another pilot, I've done it several times on long trips on the continent, if for instance we find that we're flying a particularly long leg. Each of us logs the time we actually flew, and makes a note in the Remarks column explaining the whole thing, eg "X flew from Y to Z and landed", or something similar.

Common sense is allowed in logbooks, honest!

As for what seat you fly from, AFAIK in some aircraft (such as the R22) you have to fly it solo from a certain seat for weight and balance reasons. Also, some flying schools or clubs or groups may make their own rules. Otherwise you can sit in any seat and fly it as you like. :ok:

[Shunter]

I know a couple of career instructors (ie. not hour builders) who fly solo from the right seat, purely because they're so used to it. I fly a fair bit with other members of my group so am reasonably happy in either seat, although it makes sense to place yourself in front of the panel with most of the instruments on it.

As far as logging goes, if I've flown someone else's aircraft with them logging P1, sure, I'll put it in my logbook, but just leave the time logged column empty and put N/A or PAX as my capacity on the flight.

PS. Did one of these flights include a rather scruffy landing by the P1 at Leeds? :)

[michaelthewannabe]

logging of landings. does it really matter?

I fly big aeroplanes now as well as little ones but even if the captain does the take off and landing i still put it in my book as 1 take off and 1 landing.

I cant see how it makes a big deal of difference to be honest.

I guess that would be because you're logging P2, in an aircraft where you're legally permitted to do so (i.e. multi-crew CoA).

As many others have pointed out, you can't log P2 in a typical SEP, so the situation is different.

[False Capture]

Just bounce it down the runway three times and that should cover you for 90 days.:}

On a more serious note, at the start of your log book there's a declaration to say you "certify that the information on this and the preceding pages is accurate to the best of my knowledge". So cheating isn't allowed.:=

[pulse1]

Mike Cross,

I asked Jinkster

I would be interested to know how you log that

Would you please explain to me how, as a PPL, I should know how Jinkster logs flying time.

Thank you for quoting the ANO but, important as I'm sure Jinkster is, it doesn't seem to tell me what I asked him/her.

It would be helpful if you actually read what people say before being so quick to assume their ignorance, particularly on a public forum.

[Mike Cross]

Apologies if I've offended you.

Jinkster's post was pretty straightforward, suggesting that two pilots could log part of the flight each. Your post seemed to me to indicate that you wanted to know how that should be logged.
E.g. How do you enter From/To and how do you indicate whether you did the landing or not.
I think my answer indicated a way of doing that.

If you didn't want anyone other than Jinkster to answer maybe you should have asked the question in a PM to him rather than on a public forum. No offence intended.

Mike

[englishal]

So long as there is no prohibition in the POH from what seat you fly from, then you can fly from any. When building some time for my CPL the instructor used to make me go out and fly from the RHS as it was valuable experience for when / if I was going to do the FI ratings. Bit strange to start with but it soon becomes natural (even IFR).

Regarding logging P2 time - in a single pilot aeroplane there are very few times this is possible - essentially under JAR impossible, so don't even bother. Me and my mates often "crew change" in mid air, if I take off and do the first half then I'll log the departure airport and times / conditions and then note in the comments that we swapped. If he lands I leave my "number of landings" blank and explain in the notes.

[Three Yellows]

phoneman,

With the agreement of the CAA, you can claim P2 time in a (usually) single pilot aeroplane, if you are making a serious contribution to the flight. However I'm not sure how much convincing they will need if you are P2 on a C152 from Waltham to Wycombe and back.

Read up on it in LASORS which you can download for free here http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1591

[An Artificial Member]

Just a note regarding what you put in the 'FROM' column in your log book when you take command during the flight, what I did was to put the words 'IN FLIGHT' in that column and the arrival airport in the 'TO' column, and vice versa. This presented no problem when I sent my logbook off to Gatwick for the inclusion of my IR on my licence, as my IR training involved many gymnastic airborne manouveres swapping from front seat to back seat !!

AM

[ringo_1]

I think we're missing the point here!
The original poster, it seems to me, was under the impression that the seat you're sitting in defines what roll you take. I was simply pointing out that this wasn't the case.