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tangovictor
15th Apr 2007, 23:36
I wonder which flight planner are best VFR only, UK / Europe , I have looked at Jeppersens flitestar free demo, very very US based, what about Skybook ? or Navbox ? any thoughts please ?

Cusco
16th Apr 2007, 00:15
No-brainer:

Navbox Proplan every time...........

Safe flying

Cusco;)

Chilli Monster
16th Apr 2007, 02:33
Another vote for Navbox Proplan. Easy to use, easy to configure. Plus you have the advantage, if you do have any problems (doubtful - it really is that easy), to be able to speak directly to the main people behind it, who are very approachable.

:ok:

IO540
16th Apr 2007, 05:58
Depends on the requirement.

For VFR around Europe (where you obtain all the printed VFR charts and use the PC just for the plog generation, more or less) Navbox Pro is the best.

For UK-style IFR (messing about in Class G mainly, at sub-Class-A levels) Navbox Pro again because the planning is just like VFR; only the weather planning differs.

For airways, it is really helpful to have a program into which you can enter

A airway-name B airway-name C

and it draws the route, and generates a plog with all the individual waypoints (which is used enroute because ATC often give you shortcuts along it, and is used to load the route into a normal IFR GPS that doesn't understand airway names) the only software around is Jeppesen Flitestar or Jeppview.

The Jepp stuff does have an awkward user interface but if you want to see the ultimate example of poor design look at Jepp Flitedeck. However they have the most extensive data coverage and that's what you pay for.

If Navbox understood airways and plotted out the routes, a lot fewer people would use Flitestar.

The other nice feature of Flitestar is the jepp "raster charts" product which for about £200 gives you the 1:500k VFR charts for Europe. This again makes Flitestar relevant for VFR. Flitestar is the only "official" means of viewing these charts, and £200 is a lot less than the cost of all the paper ones.

Jeppview gives you a cut-down version of Flitestar for flight planning but most relevant is the approach plates.

High Wing Drifter
16th Apr 2007, 07:53
Not used Navbox, at the moment I'm finding SkyBook does what it says on the tin/webpage.

S-Works
16th Apr 2007, 08:10
I am with IO540 here. I uses flitestar IFR extensively. Once you have worked out how to use it, it is a very powerful product indeed.

I like Navbox but it is only a VFR tool and Jepp does everything it does so I stopped updating it and stick with a single product. Jepp also integrates Jeppview so I get IFR plates direct in Flitestar and now they are offering the complete Bottlang set in the same way. A one stop planning shop!

JeroenC
16th Apr 2007, 08:56
bose-x,

since when do they offer the Bottlang electronically for Europe? Have sent an e-mail, got reply saying "was scheduled for release Sept last year, don't know when it will be released. Will keep you posted".

To summarize:
Flitestar is the successor of Flitemap. Flitestar does NOT give you a moving map as Flitemap did. It is a planning tool, able to generate plogs. It can have raster (is this the same as vector?) VFR charts for Europe.
Jeppview gives you the IFR approach plates, and can be integrated with Flitestar.
Is this correct?

So, basically for IFR touring you need both Flitestar and Jeppview?

Since I've just started my IR training I am interested in these products. What kind of coverage does the general public here buy?

Regards,

JC

mccourtm
16th Apr 2007, 09:55
I have the web based version of Flitestar. While it is quite good I'm disappointed with it because the VFR map is absolutely useless and completely lacks detail.

S-Works
16th Apr 2007, 09:56
The bottlang electronic service is available now. Call Jepp, pay the dosh and get the unlock code. Euro 200 as I recall. If you have Jeppview the VFR plates are on the current cycles, you just cant unlock them until you have paid!

Flitestar is a planning tool, Jeppview is a plate tool. You have to have both for a complete "trip kit" and Jeppview integrates into Flitestar so you actually only use the one package but have both installed. A bit like have adobe writer integrated into MS Office.

I have no interest in using a PC as a moving map display, I have a GNS430 and a 496 for that.

I have a Europe wide package and that meets all of my IFR flight planning needs. A battery powered Deskjet 340 printer and a 3G data connection on my Apple Mac and I can plan and file from anywhere and print out the plates I need.

S-Works
16th Apr 2007, 10:02
I have the web based version of Flitestar. While it is quite good I'm disappointed with it because the VFR map is absolutely useless and completely lacks detail.

Thats because it is only a basic depiction of the Jepp VFR charts. If you want full VFR chart detail then you subscribe to the Jepp Rasta chart service which gives you incredibly detailed VFR charts.

Jepp is expensive when you add on all the bits that are on your wish list, but they are the only people that cater to the wish list.

I can plan a flight from Leicester to Brest, IFR. I get a full airways routing, I get the plates for departure and destination. Brest is IFR so full set of IFR IAP plates. Leicester is VFR so a the Bottlang VFR plate. I get the enroute airways charts. I get a fully detailed VFR map from the rasta library scaled to whatever size I want for the destination and any diversion. All printed out and ready to go. If I am doinbg an IFR airways exit to a VFR field I only need a 1:500,000 mil chart of around 40 miles this fits fine on an A4 page in full 1/2 mill detail.

Fantastic service but you pay the price!

tangovictor
16th Apr 2007, 10:30
seems like Navbox has the vote, I am a little surprised that skybook only got 1 mention, as the publicity blurb makes it look a great deal ?
I will only be flying VFR with a Garmin 296 as backup,

Mike Cross
16th Apr 2007, 10:42
Navbox ProPlan

Make sure you check out the additional waypoints here. (http://www.pipercub.flyer.co.uk/id45.htm)

Rod1
16th Apr 2007, 11:33
If you want an integrated system for VFR consider the FLYMAP. You get full flight planning including graphical NOTAM info displayed on your GPS, plus an electronic Poolys which you can pull up in flight, or print off as required. The flight planning includes a vertical navigation plot taking into account CAS and ground considerations. I am considering the pocket version, and I am extremely impressed with the functionality. The WiFi instant update 30 sec before I walk out to the aircraft really is a good idea, particularly as all the info is available on your GPS moving map (which can be a CAA version)

Rod1

IO540
16th Apr 2007, 14:06
Flitestar does not replace Flitemap as such; the two used to co-exist until Jepp (inexplicably) dropped Flitemap.

Flitemap is exactly identical to Flitestar but has a GPS input so you can get a moving map over the planned route etc. Flitemap may still be available from a few places; it uses the Flitestar updates.

Jeppview is not really a companion product to Flitestar, although Jepp would sure like you to buy both. Perhaps the best description is that Jeppview (currently in v3) is primarily an approach plate display/printing program, with most of Flitestar's flight planning features included. So you don't need Flitestar for route planning; you can do it all in Jeppview.

What Flitestar does and Jeppview doesn't is automatic airways route generation (which doesn't work properly anyway) and FS has some extra features. FS has some additional chart types; JV has only Low Airways, High Airways and FMS charts. However, JV3.5, with its new VFR charts option (in effect, electronic Bottlang guides) has a "VFR" chart option added.

FS can also display/print the VFR raster charts.

The Jepp product range is a mess because it has a long history. Originally Flitestar/Flitemap was an Apple Mac product which Jepp bought in. Then there was Jeppview which was purely an approach plate display/print tool, and there was a separate program called Flitedeck which gave you a moving map over the approach plate. In Jeppview 3, the user interface is very similar to Flitestar and Flitedeck is bundled with it. I hope I got this right, more or less. Very confusing!

Personally I have an old copy of Flitemap which I run on a PC and use for plotting out routes generated via an airways route generation facility. I occassionally use it for route planning from scratch, but most of those routes fail the CFMU check anyway. I have also used Flitemap as a GPS moving map running on a tablet PC, but have found it a bit buggy.

For desk use, Flitestar is really the only relevant product.

For airborne use, the picture gets very clouded because there is a conflict between using the panel mounted IFR avionics, and using something running on a tablet computer under Windoze, with all the legendary reliability of a Bill Gates product. Seeing the image of your plane over the approach plate is great (and wonderful for a co-pilot to monitor) but is a bit of a distraction. Currently, I am in two minds about the value of this tool. However, Jeppview running on a good (1024x768 or better) tablet gives you perfectly usable approach plates. Just make sure you have the dest+alt ones printed out in case the thing dies or crashes.

I fly VFR around the UK and use Navbox pro for that, and have more or less stopped flying VFR abroad.

tangovictor
16th Apr 2007, 14:25
Thanks all for the further info, Rod I looked at Flymaps site, I can't afford £3,400 + vat, the smaller Flyman looks OK, if it does most of what the bigger version does also, ( ie no need to buy a garmin & nav software ) I will look into it more, failing that any other ideas ? " still no skybook users ? " strange

S-Works
16th Apr 2007, 14:33
i had a brief flirtation with the skybook software after the voucher that appeared for a trial period.

It works well enough, just did not provide me with the one stop shop I really need. 80% of my flying is IFR and half of that is IFR with a transition to VFR to land so I need something that covers both camps.

To correct IO540 post if you want IAP plate viewing in Flitestar you have to have Jeppview installed even if you don't use it. And contrary to his experiance I found that 98% of the autorouting trips it plans pass straight through the CFMU without problem. You have to learn to be a bit cute for some routes. I went to Brest the other day and FS routed me airways around the Jersey Zone, a quick edit of the flight plan to include ORTAC and JSY gave me 140nm shorter routing which was accepted. Its a good bit of software but you really do have to understand how it works.

I work with software all the time so it's easy for me.

tangovictor
16th Apr 2007, 15:03
thanks bose x, Im new to flying and while being reasonably computer literate
Im no expert, Ideally I'd like a simple to use GPS system, and same for plotting VFR course's I don't have £1000's and weight is an issue, As Rod said, the Flymap looks fantastic, with knee board, but its far too expensive for me.

Rod1
16th Apr 2007, 16:24
tangovictor

It us the pocket flymap I am looking at. It does have all the things I have mentioned and the total cost will be £1000 ish, but you get the GPS as well as Pooleys, plus flight planning, plus PDA etc. Probably the lightest solution as well.

Rod1

tangovictor
16th Apr 2007, 16:48
thanks Rod
http://www.flymap.co.uk/
just to be clear, the Flymap is the big version @ £3400
the Flyman is the pda thing @ £822 + 35 for pooleys ?
or am I reading it wrongly ?
I notice on there site you can visit, its not that far from me
so I may pop over for a demo
tv

IO540
16th Apr 2007, 17:06
if you want IAP plate viewing in Flitestar you have to have Jeppview installed even if you don't use it.

That's exactly right. In FS you right-click on an airport and if you have JV installed in the common Jeppesen directory one of the options is to view approach plates - IFR ones or, if you have the current JV3.5 and the VFR sub, VFR ones too.

JV is the approach plate product. Most of the JV price is the cost of the approach plates for the selected area.

And contrary to his experiance I found that 98% of the autorouting trips it plans pass straight through the CFMU without problem. You have to learn to be a bit cute for some routes.

That's because you put in "reroute accepted" on there ;) That works most of the time if going into France/Spain but IME works less often if going into eastern bits of Europe. Personally I never depart unless I have a route which passes the CFMU check - I like to keep my heart rate nice and low before departure.

Its a good bit of software but you really do have to understand how it works

I agree. However I design hardware and software for a living and have been doing so since the earliest days of microprocessors, and would never design this stuff in that way. It's truly awful.

Regarding Flymap, this gives you a GPS moving map of the Jeppesen "raster charts", or optionally the CAA VFR charts. This is a very good functionality for VFR bimbling around the place, where the absolute #1 objective is to not bust CAS. When I fly VFR in the UK, I am always running the CAA VFR charts (under Memory Map). However - this functionality needs a big screen - at least 800x600 - because these charts were designed to be viewed as printed charts. So e.g. airspace labels are widely spaced out and may not be visible even at 800x600. IMHO the CAA charts are the best around; outside the UK you have the Jepp charts which have occassionally confusing airspace labels, so one has to watch this. I have run VFR charts on a 640x480 PDA (like the PDA version of Flymap does) and it was close to useless because one could not see the airspace.

Rod1
16th Apr 2007, 17:37
Pocket Flymap is the base s/w, (you do not need flyman if you have a suitable PDA)

Flymap Win is the flight planning s/w

Pooley's Flight Guide is the electronic version, with updates

I have not yet bought it, but I am quite close.

Rod1

Genghis the Engineer
16th Apr 2007, 18:09
Pocket Flymap is the base s/w, (you do not need flyman if you have a suitable PDA)

Flymap Win is the flight planning s/w

Pooley's Flight Guide is the electronic version, with updates

I have not yet bought it, but I am quite close.

Rod1

As discussed on another thread, I've just ordered pocket flymap + Pooleys, hold yer horses a few weeks, and I'll post some kind of review of it.


In the meantime, I also like Navbox proplan for a simple bit of European flightplanning software.

G

tangovictor
16th Apr 2007, 21:51
thanks Genghis
I will hold fire, & wait your opinion
tv

Dark Helmet
17th Apr 2007, 07:48
Has anyone tried the new MemoryMap Personal Navigation Device yet? It has a 3.5" colour screen and can use the CAA charts.

dublinpilot
17th Apr 2007, 08:32
There is a world in difference in cost of NavBox Pro & FlyMap. They aren't really compeditors. FlyMap is way more expensive because it is a GPS solution as well as flight planning.

If you are considering a full flight planning & GPS system, then you should give PocketFMS a look. Perfect for VFR, but doesn't do airways. You can get a 30 day free trial at www.pocketfms.com (http://www.pocketfms.com)
dp