it's time for the chinese pilot to learn english [Archive]

sizematters

14th Apr 2007, 01:20

whenever I hear people going "Oh, my god, why can't these guys understand english"...............I ask myself one question, "How would i get on doing it in Chinese ??"......................

I think the ground guy, like most NA controllers needs to A: Slow Down B: Use standard R/T Phraseology C: show a little patience and understanding

sorry but I have every sympathy for Air china in this case...............Next time you have to ask the other guy to translate what Tapei or Tokyo are saying.....................think about this OK ??

cpdude

14th Apr 2007, 02:02

They don't have 35-40 aircraft under ground control at a time in TPE or NRT. JFK controllers don't often have time to repeat a clearance 3-4 times and understandably get upset!

Coastrider26

14th Apr 2007, 02:35

During my first flight out of HKG had a bit of a problem with this particular airline. Instead of holding short of W2 they just drove by doing 30 kts or so despite reading back the clearance several times.

Personally I'm a big fan of the system they use at LHR with the stopbars and block system.

Oasis

14th Apr 2007, 03:32

In the northeast, it seems the controllers love to rapid-fire those radiocalls, often at the expense of clarity, they need to realize that foreign carriers are not in tune with the clipped slang they use over there.
You often hear them repeat 3 or 4 times, which makes you wonder if it wouldn't be better to say those clearances more slowly and clearly, so they can be read back correctly the first time.

Another thing is that the atc controllers there have this lovely new york attitude, and can seem quite intimidating/overbearing at times, a quality that can work badly with some cultures.

asianeagle

14th Apr 2007, 03:37

I agree with Sizematters:ok:

me thinks the RT phraseology at JFK sucks at the best of times, even I dont understand them half the time and I`m English!!!:eek: Imagine how
Wun Wing Lo feels :yuk:

flyer_spotter

14th Apr 2007, 06:26

The controller is just rude...as usual, think there's a case where a Singapore Cargo pilot was in similar situation, got yelled at by the JFK controllers...oh well.

Things definitely need to improve...every pilot should understand basic english.

Flap 5

14th Apr 2007, 07:31

Having listened to the youtube excerpt I can not hear anything wrong with the JFK controller. He was unnecessarilly verbose to the pilot before the Air China, but there was nothing wrong with his controlling of the Air China. In fact he went out of his way to ask the question slowly and several times over.

I don't know whether chinese airlines still use interpreters on the jump seat, they certainly used to . That would cause problems as the interpreter had to reply to ATC and then tell the pilots. With the pilots often taxiing at high speed they would often be too late in their reactions.

In fact they often seem to intentionally misunderstand so that they can get priority just so ATC can move them on out of their airspace or (as in this case) ground space.

Neptunus Rex

14th Apr 2007, 08:12

Some years ago in Toulouse, I saw a French instuctor teaching an Air China crew in the Sim. The crew had to work through an interpreter, so one can only guess how they got on with the ECAM! Later, over coffee, I asked the somewhat exasperated instuctor how he coped with a crew that could not speak English. His succinct reply:
"Mon vieux, it would be simpler to teach the interpreter to fly!" :ugh:
Neppy
Deep & Silent
:cool:

SIC

14th Apr 2007, 09:00

This cuts both ways.

Sure the chinese guys need better english - but I tell you one thing the Americans can REALLY do with better more standard english.
I am native english speaker and mostly have to really concentrate when american controllers speak to me. They generally assume you know your way around their airport and their slang - which is mostly not the case. I fly around the planet to 40 different destinations and might see JFK once a year!!!
American controllers should realize that the average pilots world is a bit bigger than the average controllers backyard.

boocs

14th Apr 2007, 09:21

Sounds like a standard day at the office really.....

Slapshot

14th Apr 2007, 15:40

I fly around the planet to 40 different destinations and might see JFK once a year!!!

American controllers should realize that the average pilots world is a bit bigger than the average controllers backyard.

I think that's why they give you an Airport Diagram in your Jepp's and good Airmanship would dictate that you study your "expected" taxi route... Don't expect to be lead by the nose... "I'm unfamiliar, requst progressive taxi." won't cut it...

Glacier1900

14th Apr 2007, 17:20

His English is better than my Chinese!

Having said that, I was talking to a controller at YVR once, he said it was actually NavCanada (ATC) SOP to move every other english speaking aircraft before they would dare change the route of an asian carrier. He said changing thier flightpath was an absolute end of the line solution. Scary.

Flap 5

14th Apr 2007, 19:59

Glacier,

His english should be better than your chinese. English is the standard language of air traffic control.

Neptunus Rex has an anecdote that I have also heard when I was at Toulouse. The chinese pilots were expert at flying and knew no english. The interpreter was expert at english and knew nothing about flying. The instructors had to explain a lot to the interpreters so that they could 'explain' what was required to the pilots. I understand it was quite frustrating at times.

Slapshot

14th Apr 2007, 21:51

"Neptunus Rex has an anecdote that I have also heard when I was at Toulouse."

They must say that to everybody, I heard it too in the mid '90's. Our Instructor seemed quite relieved to see a coupla Canadian's walk in his door after his last Chinese students...

expatula

15th Apr 2007, 03:06

Do they speak in chinese also when reading the checklist? Hope not. :bored:

Left Wing

15th Apr 2007, 06:16

all chinese airlines the flt deck communication is in chinese.....

sinkingship

15th Apr 2007, 06:30

Just to let you know, with the mainland carriers in HK, pushbacks are conducted in madarin, tech log write up are in chinese, dual language versions of MELs etc are available. With CI headset comms are still in english.

Dan Winterland

15th Apr 2007, 07:17

Ground control isn't brilliant at Beijing Capital Airport, but it's better than JFK's IMHO.

iLuvPX

15th Apr 2007, 16:30

flyer_spotter

15th Apr 2007, 16:55

Well if your chinese brothers were pushing as much tin as the JFK guys, they would have to speak faster too. I bet JFK ATC handles more movements in an hour than those beijing controllers do all day.
That's a very good excuse, however, I'm sure a professional ground controller does know how to handle the rush hours. If a ground controller can get so mad or rude so easily, I'd call him/her unprofessional.

Not saying the US way is perfect, but when I fly into that north-east corridor and hear that ole Brooklyn slang firing over the radio...i feel all warm and cozy.....and more importantly: SAFE!!!

Yes slang...that's the problem...NOT everyone understands slang!:ugh:

Not being a smartass here, but that's what in my head.

expatula

16th Apr 2007, 03:37

Was the JFK controller talking in slangish way that only a native english speaker like him could understand? I think his R/T was standard plain, simple and direct. The taxi instructions given to the Air China crew sounded very clear and distinct to me.

While more tolerance and patience is required from ground or ATC controllers in handling situations like these, it is also a must for all aircrew to be at least a bit knowledgeable in English, both verbal and written, esp for those flying in international routes. Preparation is also a key factor here. When flying into a foreign airfield for the first time, aircrews must familiarize themselves with the airport lay-out, taxiways and gates, including frequencies. In busy international airports, grounds controllers and most esp approach/radar controllers don't have the patience and luxury to readback a plain and simple instruction for the nth time esp when most traffic are queued up behind you.

What is most appalling here lies in the fact that the pilots kept on reading back the wrong information, and could not even distinguish a question from an instruction. That to me is quite dangerous. Before you ever do anything or comply with a perceived instruction or orders, there must never be a single ounce of doubt from the aircrews' part and that of the one giving instructions. Let me share with you this example how a simple mistake in reading back instructions can lead to a possible disaster:

One aircraft taxiing and approaching holding point of RWY 30 advised the tower that they are ready for departure. Tower orders them to line up and wait and the aircrews did so. Another aircraft who was apprently in a hurry finished their pushback/start and asked for taxi clearance and requested for possible intersection departure. The tower replied "clear to taxi and hold via E intersection for 30 departure". Pilot replies "Roger, clear to taxi, line up and hold via D intersection for 30 departure". Note that the pilot added "line up" in his readback. The pilots were seemingly unaware that there was another aircraft already lined up on the threshold of Rwy 30 and just awaiting take off clearance, and because the tower used the word "via", the pilots may have taken it as a clearance for them to enter the active runway via the intersection. The tower, probably sensing the ambiguity of the communication emphatically repeated his taxi instructions by saying, "Negative. I say again, clear to taxi and HOLD at the E intersection for 30 departure".

So there. Just imagine what a disaster it may have been as a result of poor communication skills.

sizematters

16th Apr 2007, 03:57

so sort of...........

"Send reinforcements we are going to advance"

becomes

"Send three and fourpence we are going to a dance"

???????????????

the trouble with all North American Controllers is THEY TALK TO FAST.............the whole thing about operating in a foreign language is you need the Native speakers (said jokingly as americans are not) to TALK SLOWLY AND CLEARLY. had the controller done this in this case he would probably have got the correct responses in half the time....................

sort of MORE HASTE..................LESS SPEED....................

Coastrider26

16th Apr 2007, 04:14

Nothing wrong with the way ATCO speaks it's fast but quite clear. It's just these guys probably didn't have any exposure to operating outside of PRC and all the ATC communications in PRC going in Chinese doesn't help them either.

Same with the controllers why are the HKG ATCO's so much clearer than the ones just north of HKG. Just ask for the reason of descend "seperation" no traffic on TCAS for the next 50 NM surely it must be a crossing restriction but they don't know the English term....

These people should get a year living in an English speaking environment surely this would help these people a lot more.

Ps. After this tape recording of JFK ground I do not understand why the Air China was a problem. It's not entirely "on topic" but good fun anyway

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGVxXZGnHug&mode=related&search=

Absolutely Fabulous

16th Apr 2007, 06:18

flaps 5 is spot on.........english is the language of aviation

from the transmission it's obvious both pilot and controller need to learn to speak english :}

bekolblockage

16th Apr 2007, 06:51

Well if your chinese brothers were pushing as much tin as the JFK guys, they would have to speak faster too. I bet JFK ATC handles more movements in an hour than those beijing controllers do all day.

From Airports Council International:
Traffic Movements 2006 PRELIMINARY
Last update: March 16 2007
Rank City (Airport) Total Movements % Change
20 TORONTO, ON, CA (YYZ) 418 244 4.1
21 MUNICH, DE (MUC) 411 335 3.1
22 BOSTON, MA (BOS) 406 119 ( 0.7)
23 NEW YORK, NY (LGA) 399 036 ( 1.4)
24 LOS ANGELES, CA (VNY) 394 915 ( 4.0)
25 MIAMI, FL (MIA) 385 538 1.0
26 MEMPHIS, TN (MEM) 384 823 ( 1.9)
27 WASHINGTON, DC (IAD) 379 280 ( 25.6)
28 BEIJING, CN (PEK) 376 340 10.2
29 NEW YORK, NY (JFK) 375 377 8.3
30 LONG BEACH, CA (LGB) 369 708 4.7
Nice one iLuvPX.
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.
The JFK guys just like to SOUND like they're pushing more tin.

RedLiner

16th Apr 2007, 07:10

Does that statistic reflect number of aircrafts or number of passengers handled? Remember 1 744 is equal to a whole lot of CRJ's/1900's etc.

Liam Gallagher

16th Apr 2007, 07:48

It also doesn't help that you need to get clearance onto the ramp from a different "controller" on a different freq who has no desire to co-ordinate with the ground controller; therefore 2 freqs drowning each other out in the headset. Further, potentially each pilot is working their own freq whilst trying to figure out a taxi instruction heavily laden with local jargon whilst battling taxiways that are narrow, busy and poorly lit....

Now try doing that in your second or third language...

Never understood why American airfields are set up that way.....they obviously know something the rest of the world don't:ugh:

joerkaaff

16th Apr 2007, 08:46

"Make the right turn here at Juliette, join Alpha, hold short of MikeAlpha. "

What's with the use of "make the right turn here at...."? I've never heard this used anywhere outside of North America. Otherwise you'll hear "taxi via Juliette, Alpha, and hold short of MikeAlpha."

North-American English is my first language, but having flown overseas for the last 11 years I see the problem with this kind of "local" variation on the communications.

Freehills

16th Apr 2007, 08:58

Movements = flights. Not passengers

Yes, PEK is busier than JFK. But it is also somewhat better laid out and designed, rather than the dog's breakfast that is JFK. So the controllers are not as stressed.

All this about non-standard is rubbish? You should be able to understand a direct order? Poppycock. History (aviation and otherwise) is full of misunderstood direct orders that led to disaster. Doesn't help that 1,2,4,8 all have homonyms in Standard English, 3,10 have homonyms in some dialects (three/free and ten/then). Let alone 13-19 sounding similar to 30-90.

E.g. "turn to forty"

turn to 40?
turn to 14?
turn 240?
turn for tea? (if misheard)

Bedder believeit

16th Apr 2007, 09:23

iluvpax, You can't count mate, the ground frequencies in HK are split only between 11am and 6pm and they include the hardest part of the deal and that is pushbacks/ramp. JFK has separate freqs for that. And what the F*%k has a "supervisor got to do with it. There are Supervisors in all major towers that are just "supervising" not actually operating. If you want to comment on ATC issues at least know what you're talking about!

bekolblockage

16th Apr 2007, 13:58

Does that statistic reflect number of aircrafts or number of passengers handled? Remember 1 744 is equal to a whole lot of CRJ's/1900's etc.
Dear oh Dear RedLiner. I didn't think the term "movements" needed explaining to Ppruners.
It's just these guys probably didn't have any exposure to operating outside of PRC
The same goes for the controller. In typical insular North American style he gives his instructions like he's ordering a burger at his local diner in the Bronx.

sizematters

16th Apr 2007, 14:57

wow, what a true bunch of understanding considerate professionals..............so , let me get this right, if you can't understand what is said at the first attempt you should have your area of operation restricted to the area in which you can speak the language/local dialect ??

OK, so according to 50% of the (Presumably North American) posters on here you lot should not be allowed to fly outside the US......................I hate to think how many times I have to interpret the Japanese/Taiwanese/chinese controllers for my North American colleagues..................so before we get any more of this "Holier than thou" crap , lets just take a breath. At the end of the day, the art of doing OK (not even well or good) is about getting it right, even if you have to stop the aluminium and inconvenience a few folks..........................so once in a while we all have to slow down and allow for those who didn't get the lottery prize of being born an english speaker.........................By the way, you do know the chinese are likely to take over the world soon, the rate they are going ??? Better start you mandarin lessons guys, wouldn't want to embarass yourselves screwing up a readback, now, would you ??

sisyphos

16th Apr 2007, 15:39

my 2 cents :

If I try to talk to somebody and he doesn't understand it, I go for something different. Instead of yelling at the poor china man over and over the same question, he should have tried something else, like " hold position, call ramp on/ freq..." He clearly was up to humiliate him.

How about a poll regarding the airports with the worst ATC controllers/system ?

My number one would be CDG, followed by JFK and TPE.

iLuvPX

16th Apr 2007, 15:56

Bekol, never realized that PEK had grown so fast in the last year. Thanks for that, solid figures are always a good...luckily i didnt take that "bet"!!

As for Sizematters...what are you on about? No one is saying that. The fact is, English is the official language of aviation. Even ICAO isnt going to cater to the minority with this.

If you look at Bekol's handy Airports Council Chart (http://www.airports.org/cda/aci/display/main/aci_content.jsp?zn=aci&cp=1-5-54-57_9_2__) you will see that 9 of the top 10 busiest airports in the world are in North America, and 23 out of the top 30. Only one Asian airport PEK #28, made it in the top 30.

So as you can see, the majority users of the ATC system speak good ole English, therefore thats what is used. If you cant understand something, you are well in your right to ask them to say again until you understand it. But dont expect them to cater to you every time. The Chinese need to learn English if they want to operate in an environment where only English is spoken...period.

bekolblockage

16th Apr 2007, 17:11

Well, he may not speak English as well as you or me but he does speak some English! Does he meet Level 4 of the new ICAO Language Proficiency requirements? Hard to tell from that short exchange. I guess we'll find out by next March.
In the meantime, as others have intimated, the JFK controller could have tried a different tack rather than beating the guy to death with his sarcasm. His so-called question "They had cleared you into the ramp?" only makes sense if you understand the subtle inflection at the end. Easily interpreted as a statement if you don't.

expatula

16th Apr 2007, 17:19

By the way, you do know the chinese are likely to take over the world soon, the rate they are going ??? Better start you mandarin lessons guys, wouldn't want to embarass yourselves screwing up a readback, now, would you ??

Sizematters, Ni hui jiang yingyu ma? Bu Hao? And you think mankind will start using mandarin as the official language of communication soon? In your dreams, dude! Bu Yao chinese, me like engleeshh! Hah! :}

cloudyapple

16th Apr 2007, 17:41

Let's say Spanish was the official aviation language and you with a North American accent just landed at Madrid.

Tower, "North American 981, hacer la vuelta derecha aquí en Juliette, ensamblar la alfa, sostener brevemente de MikeAlpha."

North American 981, "Derecho en el asimiento de Juliette sh… Asimiento noviembre de la alfa del taxi ¿Podemos ahora carretear?"

Tower, "Hacer la vuelta derecha aquí en Juliette, ensamblar la alfa, sostener brevemente de MikeAlpha, North American 981"

North American 981, "Roger ensambla a Juliette adecuado, ensambla la alfa, asimiento, cortocircuito a noviembre"

... and so on. What do you think now huh?

[ps] I dont speak a word of spanish. I just dumped the script into some online translator :}

expatula

16th Apr 2007, 17:46

"Ay ambot man sa imo dong! Dugay ka na JFK tonto ka pa gihapon!" Can you translate this please? :}

iLuvPX

16th Apr 2007, 19:16

Bekol, its not an accomplishment that he speaks "some english" he is required to speak English to do the job...no exceptions. If he doesnt, then he can go burn some illegal DVDs back in Shenzhen. The JFK controller gave clear and concise instructions, should he have stopped everyone else while he gave some instructions in Engrish?

As long as English speaking nations keep flying the overwhelming majority of the World's air-traffic, there is no way Chinese would ever be used in aviation.

act700

17th Apr 2007, 00:56

I think that's why they give you an Airport Diagram in your Jepp's and good Airmanship would dictate that you study your "expected" taxi route... Don't expect to be lead by the nose... "I'm unfamiliar, requst progressive taxi." won't cut it...

Actually, it will.

Those guys would have been better off asking for help than try bull$hitting their way through that situation.

Remember, nothing wrong with admitting that you do not know/understand something.

That controller wasn't using slang, that's just the nuu yoaaahhk accent. It's no better, no worse than some other accents around the world.

And no, english is not my native language.

act700

17th Apr 2007, 00:58

What ever happened to the FOLLOW ME van???

Dan Winterland

17th Apr 2007, 02:44

English is the ATC language and if it's to be used efficiently and safely by those whose first language is not English, we need to have a set of rules with standard phrases and procedures. Luckily, we have an organisation who sets those rules and procedures. It's called ICAO. Unluckily, the largest English speaking nation in the world doesn't follow them!

With my previous employer, I used to fly into JFK a lot. Even though I'm a native English speaker, I found it disorganised, chaotic and confusing. This confusion erroded safety to an unacceptable standard on more than one occasion and I hated flying in and out of there. I now fly several times a month to PEK. They are similar in size and both have a poor layout. The majority of control is conducted in Mandarin Chinese but non native operators (and this includes airlines in China from regions which don't speak mandarin) are controlled in English. This does make the operation less safe, but the big plus is the controllers use ICAO standard phraseology. Often, the only confusion occurs when a US operator comes on the frequency and starts to use 'Americanspeak' terminology.

bekolblockage

17th Apr 2007, 04:41

mpflis

I guess that sort of attitude will diminish when you've been here longer than a year. :suspect:

Dan Winterland

17th Apr 2007, 04:48

I'm not defending the CA crew - they should have a better understanding of English. I'm pointing out that there is a system in place (and yes it does exist!) to make things easier - and that the 'septics' don't use it. And if more people in the world did use it correctly, life would be easier for everyone.

PS. You got my nationality correct - you're obviously an Aussie. Good luck with your test!

christep

17th Apr 2007, 06:46

As long as English speaking nations keep flying the overwhelming majority of the World's air-traffic, there is no way Chinese would ever be used in aviation.I hope you're not just starting out on your career then, because I'd be very surprised if it's more than 25 years before China overtakes the US.

Five Green

17th Apr 2007, 09:35

Dan : So what is the proper ICAO way to ask CA if they have been cleared to the ramp ?

Yes th system is a bit antiquated and the controller should know whether the a/c can proceed into the ramp. Like LA a bit of extra chatter they could do without.

The initial taxi instructions appear to be reasonably consistant with ICAO requirements. The controller even changes the plan to try and accomadate the CA crew and they still do not get it.

I agree that rapid fire RT is not safe. It happens all over. In Manilla they issue clearance changes in a rapid unintelligible accent as well. Things is tough all over !! I will say that in the last few years while flying in an Asian airplane the U.S. controllers do slow down and speak differently to ALL asia carriers. Bit funny for us when we are an all N. American crew !

My two cents.

Flying Bagel

17th Apr 2007, 23:22

But having just come back from JFK recently, there are some things about the language the controllers use that really concerns me.

For example, rolling out after landing, the instruction was given to exit "the third taxiway down on your right". I suppose he was trying to be helpful, but by the time he finished his sentence, we already rolled by two taxiways. So which one is he talking about? In the end, he gave us another clearance with the taxiway name instead, and that was that.

And taxi clearances can sometimes get a bit long winded. I really don't need to know that the Jetblue guys have blocked Bravo because they just spilled some coffee. Just say "right on Alpha" would be fine I reckon.

English is english, but when you're at an airport such as JFK, with so many international carriers and unfamiliar crews, a bit more standard phraseology could be helpful.

bekolblockage

18th Apr 2007, 05:12

From the other JFK tape doing the rounds.. " Jetblue xxx, come up thirteen left short of whiskey"

No wonder they have so many runway incursions.:rolleyes:

expatula

18th Apr 2007, 05:13

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/DGV/DGV033/DV2073126.jpg

"Right turn Juliet, join Alpha, hold short of Mike Alpha, confirm?"

"Negative. When you get on a cab, right on the first signal, go straight and join me in my Hotel." :}

throw a dyce

18th Apr 2007, 05:54

Don't recall many Air China pilots looking like that.:)
There is a tape from the States which is used by NATS to highlight runway incursions.The basics are it's foggy and an aircraft gets lost.It the enters an active ruway at an intersection with another.The GMC is hollering on,but in the background you can hear an aircraft taking off just miss this guy on the runway.
It is used to show that despite an aircraft being lost and possibly on a runway,they kept on pushing that tin.:eek: Almost fatally.:eek: :eek:
I worked with Americans and always thought why use 5 words when 25 will do.Most Asian pilots don't stand a chance.

expatula

18th Apr 2007, 07:13

Don't recall many Air China pilots looking like that.

Yeah, i know. But if i were the controller and Air China had pilots as pretty as this, i wouldn't care really if they mess up in their RT. Private english lessons free of charge! Hah! :}

BurglarsDog

18th Apr 2007, 10:12

Throw a dice and anyone else I have a powerpoint version of said incident complete with moving symbols and RT. Anyone wants a copy PM me and Ill try and send it on. I first saw it in NZ and as a training aid to show newbie Air traffickers some of the pitfalls of human error it was spellbinding. One really feels some anger/ anxiety/ negative emotion towards the controller for their actions. But without the influence of day to day emotions that always affect our decision making processses and rationality, thats always the way; hence hindsight , free of emotion, is always a wonderful thing.

BD vacating left on Bravo!:ok:

BusBusBus

22nd Apr 2007, 14:01

Well if your chinese brothers were pushing as much tin as the JFK guys, they would have to speak faster too. I bet JFK ATC handles more movements in an hour than those beijing controllers do all day.

And thats with just one ground controller. Look at HKG, they have two separate ground controllers, plus a supervisor, just to handle the little ground movements they have compared to JFK.

Not saying the US way is perfect, but when I fly into that north-east corridor and hear that ole Brooklyn slang firing over the radio...i feel all warm and cozy.....and more importantly: SAFE!!!

The last I check, Air China arrive and leave the JFK about the same time as the Cathay A346, which happens to be during the quite hours in JFK. So I don't see the need to be rude and speak non-standard English. I think that ATC controller is on of the few rude ones in JFK and should be fired period.

And flying into JFK area is safe? OMG, I can't even count the times that I get TCAS TA and wonders what the hack are those controller is doing. They are just plain unprofessional period. JFK is definitly one of the highest risk port for Cathay.

Bus

iLuvPX

22nd Apr 2007, 20:39

Its high risk cause there are a bunch of chinese flying around it...:E

throw a dyce

23rd Apr 2007, 08:14

iLuvPx,
The main reason that HK has 2 GMC is the useless design of the tower.From the GMS you can't see any of the north runway taxiways.From GMN you can't see the south runway taxiways or the cargo apron.It's a bit difficult looking through a concrete floor.The supervisor used to be non operational,although some did help out.
Also the GMC are responsible for the pushbacks on what the Americans call ''The Ramp'' so it's not the same system.If you have ever seen the pushback chart at HK,then you have to be extremely careful not to get the golden towbar award.:cool: