The Talk

[Young Pilot]

A buddy of mine trained with me in the Fall of 2004. However, he is still trying to earn his PPL. Apparently he has been failing his progressive checks since then up to the present. I personaly believe that is it unfair for the training facility to keep accepting this kids money to train, if no progress is being made. In speaking with him, he also plans to earn his commercial license with an instruement rating. I honestly don't see how this will be possible if, in three years, he can't master the skills to pass his PPL checkride. I persoanaly think that it may be time for 'the talk', as it is commonly referred to, but that is just my personal opinion. What do you guys think?

[Atlanta-Driver]

Perhaps changing to a different school and to a different instructor will take the possibility away that they are just milking your friend for money. If he still cannot meet the PTS for PPL etc, then perhaps it is time to hang the gloves and do something else. But a fresh point of view would not be a bad thing.

AD

[Whirlybird]

From the very small amount of information you've given, it does sound as though something needs to be done. But I'd suggest a change of instructor and/or school, rather than giving up. There are loads and loads of people around who took longer than most to learn to fly, but still eventually managed to sort things out, learn, and earn a living from flying - I should know; I'm one of them! There are very, very few people who really can't learn to fly. There are quite a lot of people who struggle due to the learning environment they're in not being right for them. Many of those give up...I was once asked how I managed to keep going, and what it was that made me different from the ones who called it a day. Your friend and I have determination and staying power - and that will take you an awfully long way in aviation, and in life.

So maybe a friendly chat along the lines of trying somewhere new is in order....though I'm not sure if you're the best person to give it. Maybe you are, but I don't have enough information to know that...only you can decide.

[Young Pilot]

Rainboe, by no means did I say I am judging him. Afterall, he is a good friend of mine. Hence the reason why I feel it is unfair for him to be spending this amount of money with no progress being made. He has changed instructors a number of times, and has even flown with the Chief Pilot who happens to be a master CFI. I still do not believe that I am in a position to talk with him about alternative measures. I have shared my concerns with some CFI's who have flown with him, and had them collectively state that he forgets quite easily. I mean where do you go from there? I do want to see him succeed.

[stickandrudderman]

It's HIS money, let him spend it how he likes!

[ChrisVJ]

One has to ask how often he is flying? People have different ways of learning things and, especially with physical skills, different 'forget' rates.

Just an extreme for instance. We skied two weeks at Christmas, and sometimes three and then another week or ten days after Easter for over twenty years when we lived in Englnd. We were adequate skiers but it always took the first week before we got our skills back and even then when conditions got a bit rough, rocky or icy we'd go to pieces in a second. When we came to Canada we lived in Vancouver and after about five years got a cabin up here. The first Winter we skied most weekends and that was enough to imprint the skills for good. As we get older, and live in the resort now, we hardly go up at all, (strange that!) but first day up new season, no problem. Ice?, rocks? no problem. Don't do any exercise year to year, still ski relaxed and hardly get tired at all.

Maybe your friend might look at his flying pattern, maybe have a look at setting up lessons in a string that will imprint the skills better?

[Whirlybird]

Young Pilot,

Do his instructors say he is genuinely making NO progress, or just learning more slowly than most and tending to forget things? There's a big diffference. If he really, really cannot learn to fly, maybe it's time for "the talk" as you call it. But if he's just struggling, slow, stressed, forgetful, he may well get there in the end. How does HE feel about the situation? You're his friend; surely you know.

[Young Pilot]

Well Whirlybird, from talking to him, he seems not to worry as much about not moving on to take his PPL ride. I'm close friends with one of his last instructors who said he felt like he(the student), was leaning towards simply learning to fly for recreational purposes rather than for the airlines/coperate, or something else along those line. I too don't see the enthusiasm and zeal from him, as you would expect from someone willing to succeed in this career field.

[bri1980]

If I had problems passing your check ride for a number of years, I think I wouldn't be showing the zeal as you put it: but that wouldn't make me any less determined.

Obviously he needs to concentrate hard on the parts of the test giving him trouble: he has got far enough to get to the tests so one assumes he has made some progress and can at least handle an aeroplane?

I think changing instructors is the logical choice-even if just for a few lessons. A fresh pair of eyes can usually pick up all manner of things. Even if it is just a few hours with a different guy, they might be the wisest investment in his aviation career to date.

Encourage the man. He may need a 'talk', just not the one you proposed!

[Whirlybird]

Well, in that case, just let him carry on. He's either realised himself that flying is harder than he thought, and that maybe he won't make it as a commerical pilot, or he's one of those laidback types who drift along and take everything in their stride without worrying, who sometimes end up doing rather well. There's more than one way to skin a cat...or learn to fly an aeroplane. I'd suggest you leave well alone.

[Young Pilot]

Certainly appreciate all the replies. I guess there is only so much you can do in cases like this one.
"Encourage the man." Always do whenever I get the chance:) . Thanks a lot guys.

Safe flying :ok: .

[Ace Rimmer]

It's amazing how many times when reading the biographies or autobiographies of those who've gone on to do great things in avaition had a point when they were sprog pilots felt they were never going to get the hang of it and on the verge of the chop (from mil traning mostly) and then it just clicked...

[White Bear]

My instructor worked virtually a whole summer with me on cross wind landings. I simply could not get them right. Then we changed aircraft (C152 to an older C172) and suddenly I had no difficulty at all! Looking back on it, although I was unaware of it at the time, loosing sight of the runway during the flare was the problem for me. Once I got it, X wind landings were never again an issue.

My point is, as so many have said earlier; encourage your pal to change either the instructor, or the aircraft. If he really wants to progress, he needs get past his ‘block’, and either should do the trick.:ok:
Regards,
White Bear.

[PompeyPaul]

Going off of on a tangent what % of students never learn to fly, or still don't have their PPL after maybe 65 hours ?

[Whirlybird]

I don't know about percentages. However, taking more than 65 hours to get a PPL is normal; I think the national average is around 60 hours.

I haven't actually heard of ANYONE who couldn't learn to fly. I've heard of several who had an instructor who told them they never would; they went to another instructor and got PPLs, and I know THREE like that who are now instructors themselves. Many who find it that hard run out of either money or motivation or both. But as for physically not being able to learn? I suppose people like that must exist, but there can't be many.

I don't think 'd ever tell anyone they couldn't learn due to their difficulties in grasping the mechanics of flying. But I might if their attitude seemed all wrong - no idea of airmanship, irresponsible, hopelessly immature, something like that; and seeming unable or unwilling to change. Such a person would be dangerous. But it hasn't happened yet, for me.