787 DreamLiner

[q80airbus]

as the date of release is nearing is it going to be as boeing predicts is going to be and will it be vunrable to lightning stricks as it is the world first totaly composit aircraft:confused:

[Taildragger67]

Sorry, but I can't let this one pass...

One hopes its on-board computers will have the spell-checker locked in the 'ON' position.

[pleiades]

hare hair two that!

[Rainboe]

The guy's using English as a foreign language- how would your questions look in Arabic chaps? Good on him- he made his meaning known, and deserves a sensible answer. What bugs me are the English people here who have completed umpteen years of education (that I paid for) and still can't differentiate between there, their or they're. Now that's an offence!

So q80airbus- these composites are carbon fibre. Carbon fibre has been in service for years, mainly in flight controls. It's qualities are well known in lightning strikes. This aeroplane will have more than any other civil transport. The FAA would only certificate this aeroplane if it was completely confident that it was safe and the damage and lightning repair damage qualities were well known. As pointed out, military aeroplanes are ahead of civil in this area, so it is not an unknown quality. Also, people have full trust in Boeing knowing what they're doing- they did after all produce that work of art, the B747!

[Fuel Boy]

Heard a murmer today that FCA have pulled their option for the new aircraft and that possibly MON/ZB have taken it. This will mean that they will be one of the first to fly it.....

Can anyone confirm?????

[Re-Heat]

Not surprising post-merger of the fleets following the merger announcement, as they would otherwise require rationalisation of numbers.

[Whitehatter]

FCA isn't an 'option' as such. They have firm contracts for the 787, as a launch customer, and also with GE for the GEnx.

Monarch have specified the Trent 1000 on theirs. The two would be incompatible. As TUI are currently doing a fleet renewal exercise, which will include the Thomsonfly (and therefore First Choice) operation I would think it is completely unfounded for several good reasons.

[Scarebus321]

Rumour has it that Mon has already sold its options on the Dreamliner and has been offered a very good deal on the 350...:ok:

Needless to say the Boeing boys at Mon are very unhappy

[Bealzebub]

Afraid it doesn't work like that. The options are options to purchase that must either be exercised (converted into firm orders for that customer), or they lapse by an agreed date. The customer has no ownership and cannot sell this type of option to purchase.

So all a lot of hot air. Both FCA and Monarch have firm orders for the 787 and both have additional options to purchase as set down in their respective purchase contracts.

Scarebus 321 keep dreaming ( about the dreamliner ) the 350 isn't coming anytime soon, and the Boeing options cannot be sold. Don't you have a Malaga or a Faro you should be doing ? :)

[Mr @ Spotty M]

The reason Monarch did not go with the A350 was the version Monarch was looking at was going to be the second version to be launched, so 2014 was the earliest it would be available, if then.
If you look TUI have already ordered the B787, so maybe the FCA ones are due about the same time as TUIs so are surplus to requirements, but it could all be just a "RUMOUR".:ok:

[World of Tweed]

Interesting discussion.... I would have thought that so far as orders by FCA, TOM or TUI are concerned they are being treated as separate discrete entities for now.

Also there has been no discussion of a fleet contraction. In fact I believe TUI travel was quoted in the last press release on the merger saying it will have 23 787. By my calculations that would include the current lauch options FCA have and the "undisclosed" order that TUI AG placed for the 787 sometime this or last year.

As the press release would indicate one would expect the FCA order to eventually come within the scope of the new TUI Travel PLC order. But I fear that seeing as Tflys own MD didn't know about the merger before the announcement I can't imagine that Tui Airline Management will have consolidated any aircraft orders just yet!!

Plus the takeover of LTU by Air Berlin now presents a quandry for the German market. Currently the TUI Long haul is provided mainly by LTU in Germany but I doubt this will continue for much longer.....watch this space.

[wileydog3]

It is not the issue of carbon-fibre but to be certified, it must demonstrate the ability to take strikes without negative effects. Lightning is considered part of the operating environment, like ice, and thus for the airplane to achieve FAA and JAA cert, it must pass lightning certification.

WIth carbon fibre airplanes, often manufacturers will embed mesh into the structure to help keep the lightning on the surface and to bleed it away from the more critical components. Also, things like computers and such are put in hardened sites to protect and shield them from strikes.

Interesting is to learn there are Negative Strikes and a Positive Strike, not that you have any choice. But the Positive Strike (singular) is estimated to be about 10 times more powerful than the negative strikes (plural)

When you land, if you have pitted surfaces, it was negative. If you have parts missing, it may have been a positive.

[Magoodotcom]

It's only the first fully composite airliner - there a plenty of fully composite military planes - the B2 bomber, the eurofighter for example....
Ummm...wrong and wronger.
Both of these examples are constructed from conventional materials under the skin (aluminium, steel & titanium etc), and have carbon fibre and other composite panels and structures attached (e.g canards, intakes, nose cones, wing panels, leading edges, moving surfaces etc).

The B-2 also has a composite-laced paint sprayed over it (you should smell the solvents in the curing hangar...PHEW!)

Cheers

Magoo

[Re-Heat]

Afraid it doesn't work like that. The options are options to purchase that must either be exercised (converted into firm orders for that customer), or they lapse by an agreed date. The customer has no ownership and cannot sell this type of option to purchase.
Incorrect, options can be traded.

[JetSetJ]

The first shots of the 787, she's finally complete!!

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3478111/

Regards,

JetsetJ

[Doodlebug]

Nose-section remind me of the Nimrod.

[PAXboy]

Yet another bloated twin in the series that started with the 767. The age of designing beautiful commercial aircraft must be over.

[IB4138]

Looks like an inflated 757.

Nothing special and nothing like the artist impressions that were doing the rounds.

[Desert Diner]

Looks very much like a 767

[ChristiaanJ]

PAXboy, IB4138,
Thanks guys, exactly my reaction.
After all the "oh, how beautiful" raves on airliners.net, I thought it must be me.

[621andy]

Yaaaawn, another lookylikey:bored:

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

Perhaps it's gonna look better when streched... But those raked wingtips kick butt!
http://www.ostrower.com/jon/assembly/071906_bair_pas-6.jpg

[ChristiaanJ]

But those raked wingtips kick butt!LOL.... first time I see a picture of them.
So winglets are out, Batman is in.

[False Capture]

The empennage looks a bit naff. Why have they abandoned the blade tail cone of the B777 and gone back to the pointy tail cone of the B767?

I must say, I do like large engines on an aircraft ... bit like large breasts on a woman.:oh:

[Big Tudor]

Jeez, I hope Boeings designers are better at drawing than their artists! That looks nowt like the 'artists impressions' on the PR bumpf.
Nose cone off a Comet, body off a B767 and engines off a B777. Welcome to the B787 mongrel! :rolleyes:

[interpreter]

787 - A350 -787 - A350 you pays your money and takes your choice. Both look pretty similar to me. Can't be long before we have in-flight refuelling for airliners so you can go all the way with a 787. That would be fun!

[ChristiaanJ]

Don't you feel sorry for the spotters, these days?
All those little twins look the same.
All those big twins look the same.

At least the four-engine ones are still OK: if it's fat, it's a 747, if it looks like a 747 on a diet, it's a 340.

Ah, the days when it was either a Meteor or a Hunter.....

[PAXboy]

The artist drawings that they circulated a year or two ago were VERY clever. The swooping lines made it look like a dolphin - but when you looked at the image stripped of all it's fancy lines ... guess what? It's Mummy was a 767 and it's Dad a 777. :}

Unfortunately, we are now in the era that the motor car manufacturers reached about a dozen years ago. That is to say that, the end user specified everything and the computers designed it and ... guess what? They all looked the same. :}

[Funnel Cloud]

Still looks better than an A380 to me! :O

[greenboxed]

yes, it does look like the 767, but what were you expecting? For a lot of airlines, it is what is going to be replacing 767s, because it has similar capacity/range etc...
And yes, it does look better than the A380!!! :ok:

[Hansol]

I agree, she looks heavy and sluggish, nothing like the artist impression.

[Hurkemmer]

Magoodotcom

Both of these examples are constructed from conventional materials under the skin (aluminium, steel & titanium etc), and have carbon fibre and other composite panels and structures attached (e.g canards, intakes, nose cones, wing panels, leading edges, moving surfaces etc).

The B-2 also has a composite-laced paint sprayed over it (you should smell the solvents in the curing hangar...PHEW!)

Cheers

Magoo



Yes, phenolics and epoxies can be quite smelly. Especially if copious amounts of free amine based hardners are used... It would not be good to use a solvent for anything but tool cleaning as solvents in resin would greatly reduce mechanical properties of the composite.

[yeoman]

If it::)

Flies like a 763
Has performance of a 762 with the C2 engines
Attracts the same salary

and If it doesn't::{

Land like a 762
Get painted either powder blue or bright yellow (with or without technicolour bird turd on the tail)

It will do me. What it looks like is a bit secondary. Now, about my wife............:E

[Taildragger67]

Hurkemmer,

So does that mean that it would be detrimental to the airframe to strip paint using solvents?

Should metal scrapers be used instead... ?? :hmm:

[EGBM]

After all the hype this is very ho-hum. While the A380 may not appeal to some people's visual tastes at least it was a new and exciting venture. This 787 is same old, same old, and it doesn't exactly do anything in the beauty stakes either.

[interpreter]

The A380 looks fat and "overweight" like a guppy compared to the A340. BUT with an extended body length - now that would be fascinating. How long before this arrives ?

[Taildragger67]

EGBM,

On that basis, the last real ground-breaker was the 367-80. Everything else since then (including the 747 and A380) has been evolutionary.

All long tubes, swept wings low on the fuse, with engines in pods.

Double-deck aircraft? Old hat. Been done before, sixty years ago.

The Dreamliner (if one is to believe the press) is a leap due to the technology employed in its innards, its engines and in the construction of the airframe (ie. mostly composites).

How that last point will go in 15-20 years when they go to scrap the things will be interesting - how do you melt down carbon fibre?!

[EGBM]

Taildragger, point taken, but to a recent generation whose last breath of excitement was Concorde the A380 offers something *slightly* different to the monoculture of single-deck bloaty multi-aisled twins, of which the 787 is ultimately just another example. As mentioned earlier by another poster, this may be how it's going to be, all things considered, and I can understand the practicalities of why this is the case.

[Taildragger67]

EGBM,

Actually you mention one which I forgot - Concorde :{. That was a real change. I shall go and do several rounds of :ugh: at my foolish oversight and beg forgiveness from the PPRuNe community for doing so.

But yes I think you are right - the old tube-with-wings has been pretty much 'it' since they figured out how to carry more than two punters, a couple of pigs and a mailbag.

Boeing tried to break the mold just a bit with the Sonic Cruiser... bit it didn't 'fly', literally or figuratively. They did say, when launching the 787, that a lot of the work they did on the Sonic Cruiser - aerodynamics, composites - then got put into the 787 but the main difference is that, not going up into the transonic area, the operating economics are going to be much more reliable.

[ChristiaanJ]

Taildragger,
You're pretty well right, even if we have been moving the pods around a bit over the years.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v324/ChristiaanJ/12060002w.jpg
And a lot of the smaller stuff (RJ, BJ) still do it "à la Caravelle".
But you shouldn't have forgotten Concorde, even if it was a one-off (not counting the Tu-144). :ugh:

[Taildragger67]

I know, I know.

Schoolboy error, trying to be a smart-ar5e and it backfired on me (like that's never happened before... :hmm:).

Anyway, to all and sundry, sorry. I loved the Concorde - love the Concorde - and was privileged to fly in it once. I signed the petition.

I will now go and sit on the naughty step for 10 minutes.

Bad TD67, naughty boy. :=

[hobie]

If you have nothing to do this coming Sunday (8th July) you could watch the Boeing 787 Rollout ....

live webcast ..... 11.30pm London time

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/787premiere.html

[bomarc]

as some of you know, the B787 is going to be rolled out on Sunday.

I just figured (am I dumb or what?) that the date will be July 8, 2007...

7/8/7

hmmmmm

guess that 911 thing started a fad

[seacue]

Boeing had another chance - August 7- if they couldn't make July. 7/8/07 in the non-US rest of the world.

[winglit]

I wonder if American Airlines have ordered any? If so, how will they livery them? They won't be able to show them off with their shiny polished metal look if they're made of plastic!

[nano404]

I wonder if American Airlines have ordered any? If so, how will they livery them? They won't be able to show them off with their shiny polished metal look if they're made of plastic!

I think they were thinking of it. it would be interesting.

Watching the thing now.

[nano404]

This thing is nice.:ok:

[206Fan]

http://bjones4.com/temp/NDVD_000.jpg
http://bjones4.com/temp/NDVD_003.jpg
http://bjones4.com/temp/NDVD_004.jpg
http://bjones4.com/temp/NDVD_005.jpg
http://bjones4.com/temp/NDVD_006.jpg
http://bjones4.com/temp/NDVD_008.jpg

[Dushan]

Rainboe wrote
What bugs me are the English people ... and still can't differentiate between there, their or they're. Now that's an offence!
So q80airbus- these composites are carbon fibre. Carbon fibre has been in service for years, mainly in flight controls. It's qualities are well known in lightning ...
Also the people who can't differentiate between "its" and "it's":)

No more 'attacks' from the floor on posting language/syntax/spelling/punctuation please or off to JB you go.

[bomarc]

the pluses: lower cabin altitude, higher humidity, lower fuel burn.

the minuses: what happened to faster? what happened to sleeker?

and if the seat pitch is the same as any other airliner, why bother?

[WALSue]

Pluses: I'm sure I read/heard somewhere that they can be fitted with a shower. :}

[JamesT73J]

Airliners.net's resident Seattle Boeing-shooter got an image of the flight deck mockup here:

http://www.airliners.net/uf/view.file?id=536879611&filename=1183954499Mh7HjM.jpg

Interesting stuff. Not quite the Space Odyssey look that some publicity shots had suggested - the detail is cool. I like the offset yokes.


James

[Contacttower]

The PFDs look just like the ones in Thruxton's new glass cockpit Warrior.

[westie]

I thought it was meant to have its maiden test flight towards the end of last month? Anyone know the up to date timescale?

[PBL]

I thought it was meant to have its maiden test flight towards the end of last month? Anyone know the up to date timescale?

Flight International is reporting end of October, although apparently there is some chance it might slip further.

PBL

[sitigeltfel]

Briefing on Wednesday

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/787family/news/2007/q3/070829b_nr.html

[drichard]

Apologies if this is old news, I have looked but couldn't find any references to this.
BBC news reporting that the 1st flight of the Dreamliner is being delayed by 3 months due to problems with software and is "battling to complete parts of the plane at its plant in Everett".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6980299.stm
Apparently they are keen to "avoid a repeat of the catastrophic problems suffered by rival Airbus, whose A380 superjumbo was about two years late. "

[Rice bowl licker]

No, hot off the press…

Boeing 787 First Flight date is now tentatively mid-November to mid-December but officials have declined to specify an exact date.

Delivery of the 1st a/c is still on-time for May 2008.

The First Flight is evidently being delayed due to Flight deck software issues that went unresolved on the AA Boeing 777 test aircraft.

The delays are also being attributed to problems managing what Boeing calls “Traveled Work” projects whereby suppliers are unable to complete specific tasks on schedule.

Any additional info or press releases out there yet?

[ChristiaanJ]

Boeing is battling to complete work on parts of the plane which are at its plant in Everett, Washington. It has also had problems with flight software.Well, they WOULd go with Microsoft Vsta, wouldn't they?

A shortage of permanent bolts, or fasteners, made by Alcoa is also contributing to the delay, the company said.Splitpins, bailing wire, chewing gum and duct tape are being qualified for aircraft use as we speak.

The announcement means that Boeing's test flight schedule will be shortened to about six months.The remainder of the flight tests will be carried out in airline service, with passengers on board.
The FAA has already been bribed accordingly.

Boeing says the 787 is much more fuel efficient than its competitors and produces 20% less carbon dioxide.Instead, it will convert it into nitrous oxide (also known as laughing gas).

[MarkD]

Somehow this is all Airbus' fault.

[aviate1138]

Aviate1138 ponders....
So how many hours out of each 24 will it/they now be test flying? If there is a shortage of bolts presumably they won't be able to build more [test] aircraft than first needed. What are the penalties for late delivery? Airlines might not be pleased to collect their early ordered aircraft knowing they have been thrashed a bit to meet the delivery deadline - I suppose a little cash easement will be negotiated.
Look forward to the 787's first flight. Always a special moment when any aircraft, big or small, lifts off the ground for the first time. :)

[Lower Hangar]

So when was the much trumpeted 1st flight originally forecast ??

[bjones4]

It was originally pencilled in for August 27th.

[D120A]

In order to roll it out on 7/8/7 (8th July 07, American-style date), they had to assemble it with 'temporary fasteners' according to Press reports today. A triumph of marketing imperative over engineering reality, as it were, which might whimsically be expressed mathematically as :D>>:8

So they have now had to take the prototype to pieces to re-assemble it properly, and one wonders just how small those pieces are. The paperwork associated with undoing and re-doing a flight vehicle must be a one-off nightmare.

[ChristiaanJ]

"Original 1st flight pencilled in for August 27th."

Three months delay, add one third (Augustine's Law).
First flight around Xmas, probably still with splitpins holding the landing gear in place.

777 needed 11 months flight test to certification.
Boeing said 9 months for the 787, now says 6 months, whistling in the wind.

Applying Augustine's Law again, I would expect a CofA in Oct 2008 and first delivery just before the end of the year.

Anybody taking any bets?

[elac2]

So in reality, the roll out was not a real aeroplane??

[TerminalVelocity]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/09/05/216613/boeing-787-first-flight-delayed-to-mid-novembermid-december.html

Check out this article.

[TerminalVelocity]

Real aeroplane, temporary fasteners and no wiring.

[elac2]

So flight certification to be completed in four months. This will be some record and i certainly will not get on a new aircraft made out of untried parts after only four months of check. Just for interest i posted on the Rumours and News forum regarding this and it has disappeared after e few replies.

elac2

[Seloco]

quote from Flight:
The aircraft was assembled with thousands of temporary fasteners as Boeing’s main suppliers reported a major shortage of aviation-quality rivets for the main fuselage and wing structures.

Why does it need fasteners - I thought this thing was all glued together?!;)

[ChristiaanJ]

Why does it need fasteners - I thought this thing was all glued together?!Sorry to disappoint you.... we haven't quite got to the stage of a full-scale carbon-fibre Airfix kit yet. :rolleyes:

[Lower Hangar]

My reason for querying the originally forecast date for 1st flight is that there's an irrefutable law in Programme Management that e.g if the 1st flight is,say, 1 year away then you might get away with a 3 month slip without being shot, if its 6 months then maybe 1 month would be permitted, 1 month maybe a week and a week away maybe a 1 day slip....on the day of the 1st flight if its posted for 1100 then its probably going to get airborne about 1500...I speak from personal experience (Sea Harrier FA2 & Avro RJ)....so basically Boeing Programme Managment has screwed up big time ( 1 week away 3 month slip)....just what were their Senior Managment doing -this must have been known as early as 1st quarter 2007. ChristiaanJ was spot on in this respect. The 1st delivery must be in question as earlier 'posters' have pointed out.....the other irrefutable law of Programme Management is if you've got a problem then the sooner you let your customer know the less painful in the long run it will be.

[plasticAF]

If an aluminium skinned a/c gets "dinged" it's patched.
How do you repair a similar problem on a composite?
Agreed there are sections of a/c such as tails, flaps etc. But the fusalage?
How big would the portable autoclave need to be?

:confused:

[aviate1138]

What is really noticeable is that the Airbus 380/350 knockers are strangely quiet at the moment. Avoiding "Aprés nous les deluges" perhaps? :)
Just a thought......

[bjones4]

If an aluminium skinned a/c gets "dinged" it's patched.
How do you repair a similar problem on a composite?
With a patch...

http://bjones4.com/temp/787_patch.jpg

The necessary materials are provided IIRC as part of the 787 maintenence support package. Small dings can be repaired in an hour and last for ~5yr, more major problems get an overnight treatment that is good until the next major check which on the 787 will be at 12yr intervals.

[Swedish Steve]

Don't you love them. 59 mins, of which 35 is cooking time, leaving me 24 mins to get the kit shipped out from main base, find out how to use it, and get it finished.
Reminds me of the 45min engine change on the B747!

[ChristiaanJ]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/09/17/216790/fastner-problem-could-prove-longer-term-hindrance-to.html

More splitpins?

[ChristiaanJ]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071010/ap_on_bi_ge/boeing787_13

Oh well.. I said (post #64) :
"Original 1st flight pencilled in for August 27th."
Three months delay, add one third (Augustine's Law).
First flight around Xmas, probably still with splitpins holding the landing gear in place.
777 needed 11 months flight test to certification.
Boeing said 9 months for the 787, now says 6 months, whistling in the wind.
Applying Augustine's Law again, I would expect a CofA in Oct 2008 and first delivery just before the end of the year.
Anybody taking any bets?

Just as well I didn't take any bets....

Already "six" months late for the first flight (eight, rather). Now announced for April 2008, so let's say mid to late June 2008.
First deliveries August 2009? Any takers?

"Always add one-third"

[scudpilot]

Just read this report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7038294.stm) on BBC News that the Dreamliner is 6 months behind schedule....:bored:

[FoxtrotAlpha18]

The Boeing Company [NYSE:BA] today announced a six-month delay in its planned initial deliveries of the 787 Dreamliner due to continued challenges completing assembly of the first airplanes.

Deliveries of the strong-selling Dreamliner are now slated to begin in late November or December 2008, versus an original target of May 2008. First flight is now anticipated around the end of first quarter 2008.
The company said the financial impact of the delay would not be material to earnings and that its earnings guidance for 2007 and 2008 remained unchanged.

"We are disappointed over the schedule changes that we are announcing today," said Boeing Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer Jim McNerney. "Notwithstanding the challenges that we are experiencing in bringing forward this game-changing product, we remain confident in the design of the 787, and in the fundamental innovation and technologies that underpin it."

Early last month, Boeing announced a delay in the planned first flight of the 787 citing ongoing challenges with out-of-sequence production work, including parts shortages, and remaining software and systems integration activities. The company also acknowledged increasing risk to the delivery schedule, indicating that the margin to accommodate unexpected issues had been eliminated. The newly revised schedule for first flight and first delivery addresses the production challenges and restores margin for the program to deal with issues that may be uncovered in final ground or flight testing. Boeing also said today that flight control software and systems integration activities are not pacing items in the revised schedule for first flight.

"While we have made some progress over the past several weeks completing work on our early production airplanes and improving parts availability across the production system, the pace of that progress has not been sufficient to support our previous plans for first delivery or first flight," said Scott Carson, president and CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes. "We deeply regret the impact these delays will have on our customers, and we are committed to working with them to minimize any disruption to their plans.

"The most important commitment we've made to our customers is to deliver an airplane that performs to their expectations over the long life of the program. These changes to our schedule will help ensure we do just that," Carson said.

Ouch - that's gonna hurt!

[cambruzzo]

ABC News Au is reporting delivery delay announcements by Boeing

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/11/2056405.htm?section=justin

[stillalbatross]

Dow took a huge hit today with Boeing saying late 2008 and rumours saying at least a year or two after that. And there's still a huge number of issues that could push the delays even further, hence what appears to be, at 2.8%, a large drop in Boeing shares.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Dispatch/071010markets.aspx

Maybe some in the market know something we don't.

[B767PL]

Just the beginning of it I think.

[electricjetjock]

Where are the Airbus and A380 detractors now? Did none of them wonder why Boeing were not crowing over the problems Airbus were having?:=

[aviate1138]

I can see it now - a roll of giant Duct tape bumps around 4 points along the fuselage........
and a mass of G-cramps around the inside at each join.
Be interesting to see if some of the Boeing Engineers flagged this fastener problem up ages ago and were overridden?
Another Management/Engineering saga no doubt.

[LoadMan]

Just as well I didn't take any bets....

Already "six" months late for the first flight (eight, rather). Now announced for April 2008, so let's say mid to late June 2008.
First deliveries August 2009? Any takers?

"Always add one-third"

I actually thought Boeing would get the December date, as I expected them to be conservative. Now, I think they really are conservative. So, I believe the date for first flight, well, it is put with some flexibility. I know another aircraft that was scheduled to fly in first quarter 200x.

[ChristiaanJ]

OK, I read that.

Delivery 1st QT 2009 if they get their act together.

"Always add one-third"

[stillalbatross]

I actually thought Boeing would get the December date, as I expected them to be conservative. Now, I think they really are conservative. So, I believe the date for first flight, well, it is put with some flexibility. I know another aircraft that was scheduled to fly in first quarter 200x

On the contrary, I think they are being far from conservative. How is rolling out an aircraft held together with sellotape and bluetack being conservative? They have been far too bold in their claims and no doubt engineering is being given an impossible task by marketing and management. The first aircraft will be delivered late with a multitude of problems as boeing attempts to stay on time with the models release.

[The Real Slim Shady]

I have a rather natty Powerpoint presentation on the beast and it really does look quite magnificent. Hardly black tape etc

[Gulf4uk]

If the first flight takes place in April does that leave enough time to get it
Ready For SBAC Farnborough Show july 2008 pretty sure they would
not want to miss out on showing it with a Probable in Service A380 making
its Second appearance anyone have any thoughts on this ?

Tony
farnborough aviation group (spotters )

[ZFT]

I ‘understand’ that the fasteners are a very convenient excuse to disguise far more critical issues with (amongst others)the CIS/MS

Problems further compounded by the B787 being the 1st commercial aircraft build being governed by the E.A.R (Export Administration Regulations)

[Rainboe]

CIS/MS?......Coordination ion-spray mass spectrometry? Developmental Math and Computer Information Systems? Whatever it is it sounds horrible!

[BOEING777X]

For those who didnt listen in to the media briefing, a summary of the event can be found here (http://fleetbuzz.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/boeing-787-update/).

:ok:

787-10 here.

http://fleetbuzz.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/10-der/

[BOEING777X]

Does anyone else agree that the 109 787 delivery target by the end of 2009 remains too ambitious?

[Zoner]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/2007-12-11-787-schedule_N.htm

[BOEING777X]

While delays may have been subsided somewhat, it is the 109 target that now has investors at the edge of their seats.

[BOEING777X]

http://www.sharewatch.com/story.php?storynumber=129553


NEW YORK (Thomson Financial) - Boeing Co. Wednesday was downgraded to equal-weight from overweight at Morgan Stanley, which said concerns over delays in the production schedule of the 787 could keep the stock range bound over the near term.

The brokerage also suspended its $140 price target.

"We have a new level of concern the 787 risks are likely to linger over the stock and not be retired as we had earlier believed," the firm said in a note to clients.

"In our view should Boeing achieve milestones like Power On in January and first flight in March, concerns will only shift to the next hurdle, keeping the shares range bound." The risk rises as the company's goals get harder, Morgan Stanley added, from first flight in the first quarter of 2008 to the delivery of 109 787s by 2009.

"We don't believe this goal is achievable," the firm said.

[BOEING777X]

787-10 (http://fleetbuzz.wordpress.com/2007/12/13/10-der/) possibilities...

[BOEING777X]

Dreamliner breaks yet another sales record (http://fleetbuzz.wordpress.com/2007/12/27/787-record-breaker/) on completion of the BA deal (http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2007/q4/071226a_nr.html).

[SEA-MD11]

Hi guys,
Thought I would share this link :

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/boeing/787/787primer.asp

Happy new year all :)

[BOEING777X]

More on the 787 here:

http://fleetbuzz.wordpress.com/2008/01/08/boeing-787-news/

[BOEING777X]

First flight is going to be pushed back again.

http://fleetbuzz.wordpress.com/2008/01/11/boeing-787-first-flight-to-be-pushed-back/

[scudpilot]

BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7190853.stm) reporting further delays on the 787.
Apologies if already posted!:ugh:

[BEagle]

Not for nothing is it known as the seven-late-seven!

[beerdrinker]

There speaks a loyal Airbus employee whilst totally ignoring the delays to the A three latey.

Beerdrinker (Not a Boeing emplovee - just a dispassionate observer)

[BEagle]

Actually I was told by industry insiders when the A380 delays were announced that Airbus were rather more honest about their delays than 'our competitor' as they termed the other compnay.

All the carping about the A380 delays made by some was seen as a pretty risky strategy given that every image of the 7E7 differed substantially from the preious one. No-one knew what it looked like, let alone when it would fly.....

Still, with the true state of the US economy now being revealed and the US dollar falling against the €uro, the 7late7 will be available at bargain basement prices.

[False Capture]

Surely the other way round BEagle.

With about 820 firm B787s orders, Boeing don't need to sell them at "bargain basement prices". The A380 on the other hand is being sold at silly prices - BA's deal on the A380 was almost a case of 'buy one and get one free'.

[ALPHA FLOOR]

I'll not join the band wagon of Boeing vs Airbus willy stretching. But I will say that the recent US credit crunch and the subsequent warnings of recession - the 787 is cheap at the price and becoming cheaper with each closing bell in Wall street.

Does that make Boeing the more attractive aircraft for investment? I would guess not as the forcast is for a very weak US economy for the foreseeable future thanks to this administrations "foreign Policy" (or lack thereof.)

AFL

[fc101]

Two things worry me: firstly given the amount of outsourcing and the increasingly worse for wear dollar and that Boeing are throwing more and more people into the project. A rapidly increasing workforce costs money to train, get certified, operate etc and once things have settled down it costs money to "move" these people from the project.

Anyway, how come anytime someone even dares critisise Beoing they are automatically an Airbus disciple and thus "wrong"....:ugh:

E145 driver

[Torquelink]

Interesting insight into A380 pricing:

Airbus Financial Services has sold three A380s on lease to Singapore Airlines to Doric Asset Finance at a base purchase price of $198.6 million each. Commercial Aviation Online.

Dunno if that's good or bad but I believe list is around $300m.

[Sallyann1234]

Dunno if that's good or bad but I believe list is around $300m.
The two prices are not comparable.
The purchase price gets you a plane that's yours to do what you like with.
Buying a leased plane gets you income from the operator plus a worn-out plane at the end of the contract.

[cornwallis]

Does anybody have an airline delivery schedule for the 787?

[keesje]

BA's deal on the A380 was almost a case of 'buy one and get one free'.


1. What does this have to do with the Boeing 787 delay?
2. Do you have any source to back this up?

I hope it is not just another cheap shot at Airbus.:bored:

On the delay : I wonder what happened during the last few weeks that caused an additional delay. Reading Carsons comments I sense a little "blame game". He says there are problems on the floor but points at outside factors multiple times.

On the other hand following the press / analists, it seems they are not listening to Boeing anymore but reading Flightblogger, James Wallace, WSJ and maybe forums like these to get a clue on what is really happening..

[BOEING777X]

http://fleetbuzz.wordpress.com/2008/01/16/boeing-787-encounters-second-major-delay/

Round up of todays conference call.

[moggiee]

Let´s be realistic here - given that most conventional aeroplanes are late entering service, it s atnds to reason that any aeroplane that uses any kind of new technology is going to be even more late into service!!

The only question is "how late?"

Off the top of my head, the A380 is about a year late - the 787 must be about the same by now, if not worse.

[bjones4]

Off the top of my head, the A380 is about a year late - the 787 must be about the same by now, if not worse.
First 787 flight was supposed to be August 27th with delivery the following June IIRC, thats now late June for First flight and delivery in the beginning of 2009 so theres around 9-10 months there.

As for the A380, first flight was only a few months behind schedule in April 2004 with delivery supposed to happen in early 2006, the delays were then drip fed upto ultimately the first delivery (and the only one for the year) being in October 2007 so it's nearer 18 months in that case.

[metal wings forever]

I feel that the dream liner was rolled out at least one year early. The execs wanted that date 07-08-07 for roll out and it cost them. The global market is having quite a few glitches, much easier if they were built in house.

[BOEING777X]

787 update-of-sorts

http://fleetbuzz.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/boeing-787-guidance/

[BOEING777X]

More here (http://fleetbuzz.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/boeing-787-challenges/).

[Just a spotter]

International Lease Finance Corp (ILFC), the world's top plane leasing firm, said it will seek large compensation from Boeing for the delays, which will push its Dreamliner deliveries back by between 9-12 months to late 2010 or early 2011.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/23245893

JAS

[BOEING777X]

Edit

Please Ignore Post

[BOEING777X]

Small 787 update on the fuselage:

http://fleetbuzz.wordpress.com/2008/02/28/boeing-787-fuselage-barrel-passes-key-tests/

[ChristiaanJ]

You may have noticed this:
"Another interesting excerpt from the Boeing press release states the following:
Finally, the team pushed the composite section past ultimate load well beyond ultimate load to a destruct-condition maneuver beyond two and a half times the force of gravity."

My emphasis.

Not an entire fuselage, and even less an entire aircraft, wings and all.
Oh well, it makes good publicity and spin for those who don't understand all of that hi'falutin' stuff.

[BOEING777X]

Q&A with HeraldNets Michelle Dunlop, vis a vis the 787.

Click (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/03/03/dialogue-with-dunlop/)

[BOEING777X]

747-8F vs A380F (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/03/05/worth-its-weight-boeing-747-8-freighter/)

[BOEING777X]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&refer=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=a1djXe7nPcxY


Boeing Completes 50-Percent Design Release for the 747-8 Freighter

EVERETT, Wash., March 6 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- The Boeing Company (NYSE: BA) has completed 50 percent of the design releases for the new 747-8 Freighter (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/03/05/worth-its-weight-boeing-747-8-freighter/). The program has released the 747-8 Freighter's detailed designs to Boeing factories and its suppliers in order to begin building parts, assemblies and tools for the new cargo airplane.

"This design milestone is a tribute to efforts of the 747-8 team, our customers and suppliers," said Ross R. Bogue, vice president and Boeing Completes 50-Percent Design Release for the 747-8 Freighter general manager, 747 program and Everett site. "We are now focused on completing the remaining design work and delivering a 747-8 Freighter that increases the 747 family's leadership in the growing cargo market."

[BOEING777X]

Maybe only 30 deliveries for 2009. (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/03/14/revised-delivery-targets-on-the-787/)

[Tediek]

According to flightblogger, more delays.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flightblogger/


I think this will be an expensive issue for Boeing.

[Jig Peter]

If "Mr. ILFC" is rightly reported as having remarked that the 787's centre wing box needs modification (and he's not usually all that "hazy" about what goes on) it could be that the gent who reckoned this will be a 7 billion-dollar "hit" on Boeing could be in the right ball-park ...
Boeing's next updates should be very interesting ...
No chance of one at Farnborough in any case, but perhaps Airbus will be gentle and not fly several A380s, plus the"KC-45A" refuelling Typhoons while the A400M buzzes merrily around with big loads aboard ... :E

[BOEING777X]

A delay may just be a mixed blessing for Boeing.

If the reports quoting Hazy prove to be true, then compensation from Boeing may not just be financial payments - I would expect them to fully start discounting the 777 (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/03/20/delays-will-drive-boeing-777-demand/) to make up for customers shortfall in capacity.

Further 777 sales will also likely thwart potential A350 sales with earlier availability, even though near term slots will be limited.

[BOEING777X]

Short interview with analyst Howard Wheeldon (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/03/31/wheeldon-spins-wheel-of-fortune-on-industry/) on Airbus, Boeing...

[BOEING777X]

Exclusive 777 Freighter images right here (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/04/04/boeing-777-freighter-takes-shape/).

[BOEING777X]

787 media briefing (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/04/07/787-media-briefing-preview/) due possibly as early as April 8th.

[drichard]

BBC News reporting that the Dreamliner will be delayed by 15mths.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7338807.stm


Boeing has announced another major delay to delivery of its new 787 Dreamliner aircraft.

The plane is now about 15 months behind its original schedule. The first flight will be in the fourth quarter of 2008.

The target for delivery of the first plane to Japan's All Nippon Airways is now the third quarter of 2009. The previous target was early 2009.

Boeing has blamed slow progress on assembly and continuing problems with suppliers for the delays.


A BBC news "Expert" is predicting compensation payments of upto $2.5bn due to those who have ordered the aircraft.

[BOEING777X]

Here is a summary of the media call today:

Click (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/04/09/boeing-787-delayed-for-a-third-time/)

[BOEING777X]

Added another couple of pics - one courtesy of the Boeing press release and another sent by Boeing at a slightly different angle.

Clicky (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/04/10/boeing-777-freighter/)

[Wangja]

Will the pax order their drinks in liters or quarts?

Litres I hope.

"Serving wench, I say, serving wench! Another Gee 'n' Tee please!"

[Ty3]

How do these new wingtips work on the B787 & B747-800?

[TSR2]

Reduce wing tip vortices, hence less drag and improved fuel consumption .... so they claim.

[poss]

A wingtip vortex destroys the lift that the wing could be producing so instead wingtips displace the vortex to a part of the wing that isn't creating lift, a blended wingtip or wingtip fence. This reduces lift induced drag, and I believe some of the blended ones throw the votex backwards creating a bit more thrust. (don't quote me on that last one though ;)).

:ok:

[BOEING777X]

Slightly off topic, but Emirates hasnt yet ruled out the 747-8I (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/04/21/emirates-toys-with-747-8i/).

[BOEING777X]

First 777F "rolls out" (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/04/30/boeing-777f-rolls-out/) from the factory!

[BOEING777X]

Third flight test Boeing 787 (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/05/01/journal-delight/)

[TSR2]

With the announcement by Monarch that their 787's will be 30 months late with delivery of the first aircraft in 2013 'at best', what delays are expected to the delivery of the 787's to First Choice.

[sanjosebaz]

From Thomson Financial in Berlin:Boeing Co has signalled a further nine-month delay to clients awaiting delivery of its 787 Dreamliner launch, German newspaper Die Welt reported Saturday.

Contacted by AFP in London, a Boeing spokesman refused to comment on the report, which cited a letter sent by the company explaining that orders will now be fulfilled a total of 27 months late.

On April 9, Boeing said the first flight would move into the fourth quarter of this year rather than the end of the second, with first delivery planned for the third quarter of 2009 instead of the first.

The latest delay primarily affects companies expecting to take delivery from 2012 and beyond, Die Welt spelled out, citing Air Europe, Gulf Air, Vietnam Airlines and British Airways.

[BOEING777X]

Etihad may be one of those carriers who has ordered 787's, and is closing in on a 747 deal too (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/05/16/747-8i-order-drought-to-end/).

[BOEING777X]

Power on nears for 787 and 747-8I secures (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/05/20/small-big-deals/) tentative second customer!

[BOEING777X]

777F Makes Debut! (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/05/21/boeing-777-freighter-makes-debut/)

[BOEING777X]

Boeing breathes life into the first 787. (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/06/13/powering-the-787-dreamliner-to-power-on/)

[TSR2]

Considering the tremendous success Boeing had with the production of the 777, how could they have got it so badly wrong with the 787.

[Luigi_Aviator]

it's a beautiful plane! a technological marvel:O - though weather it can compete with the other 2 engined heavyweights we will only find out in afew years!

[BOEING777X]

British Airways is also rumoured to be closing in on a 777-300ER deal (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/06/16/british-airways-flirts-with-big-boeing-twin/) to augment its fleet in lieu of the 787 delays.

[BOEING777X]

Boeing completes power on sequence (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/06/20/boeing-completes-787-power-on-sequence/) for the first 787 Dreamliner (http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q2/080620b_nr.html).

[BOEING777X]

Boeing (http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2008/q3/080927a_nr.html) completes first of 3 pressure tests on 787 (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/09/28/787pressuretest/).

[BOEING777X]

Ray Goforth, negotiator for SPEEA union speaks about Boeing, the continuing strike and the upcoming renewal of the SPEEA contract (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/10/01/raygoforthspeea/).

[BOEING777X]

Boeing & IAM to restart contract talks (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/10/09/boeingiamtalks/).

[BOEING777X]

Boeing all but confirms the 787 will be delayed... (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/10/14/iamboeingupdate/)

[N707ZS]

Heard its been designated the "plastic pig". Hope Boeing isn't going to be the reliant of the aircraft industry.

[BOEING777X]

American Airlines orders up to 100 Boeing 787-9's (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/10/15/american787/)

[BOEING777X]

Boeing, SPEEA start initial contract talks (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/10/17/initialspeeaboeingtalks/).

[mickyman]

The delays are starting to put the A380's own delays
into perspective.........I just hope that it doesnt get struck
by lightning on its eventual f/f.

Is the strike about the company outsourcing more work on
the project?

MM

[BOEING777X]

Theres a heaven/earth difference between the manufacturing ethos between the A380 and 787.

The work on the 787 has already been distributed and its unlikely we'll see it further diluted until the supply chain reaches maturity.

And even if it was struck by lightening, the whole purpose of the FAA is to ensure its safe - I'm sure Boeing will not compromise that aspect. :rolleyes:

[mickyman]

'Theres a heaven/earth difference between the manufacturing ethos between the A380 and 787.'

I take on board that the actual process might be 'revolutionary'
for the 787, but they both outsource to other countries which
is not dissimilar (albeit over continents for the 787).
Because of the untried special manufacturing of the 787, Boeings
schedule was always - in my opinion - unrealistic.
The strike has come at a crucial time for the 787 and damages
the project even further.But I read that the action is not solely
about T+C's its about Boeing wanting to outsource even more
work which is bound to upset certain workers.
I remember our American cousins howling when the A380 was
delayed - people in glass.....
As too the remark about lightning and the FAA:Authorities can
only set a level of safety to a known risk - the 787 is revolutionary
as you say - so like the Comet years ago at the beginning of the
jet age, something unexpected is always possible no-matter what
you do.Remember the DC10 door problem as well.

I for one will welcome the entry into service of the 787 - whenever
that is.

MM

[BOEING777X]

Yep the 787 manufacturing/assembly process is new, but over time it will mature and operate as planned. I wouldnt be surprised along the way if alterations/changes are made, such as Boeing's move to buy out Voughts stake in Global Aeronautica.

:ok:

[BOEING777X]

Interview with former Airbus Sales Director here (http://www.fleetbuzzeditorial.com/2008/10/20/arranaerospace/). :ok:

[mutt]

Why do you keep advertising your own website?


Mutt