Free drinking water for airline passengers - Legal requirement or not?

[clearfinalsno1]

I was a passenger on a Ryanair flight this week. I asked for a glass of "tap water". I have started doing this on other low-cost airlines to avoid being ripped off a few pounds for a small bottle. I was under the impression that it was written somewhere in air-law that airlines are obliged to offer free water to passengers to counter the dehydrating nature of airline flight. Am I right?

The cabin crew member paused and then said "we don't carry drinking water but I can give you some water from the kettle with ice cubes in to cool it down". When I said "don't bother", she quickly softened her stance and said "it's really no problem". I accepted her offer and got a glass of slightly warm water with ice cubes in a few seconds later. However, I strongly doubt it had been boiling and cooled so quickly. I suspect there is a supply of water but they are under instructions to sell bottles when possible to generate revenue.

Presumably the "galley water" is the same as that that is pumped into the aircraft for toilet flushing and hand washing. Does anyone have any information on whether this is considered potable or non-potable?

I started this topic after reading another thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3219220&postcount=9) where a crew member reports becoming ill from repeated drinking of galley water.

[Carmoisine]

I am a Pilot for Ryanair. Ryanair do not supply me with drinking water either during the flight. They are supposed to provide a water fountain in the crewroom to fill my empty bottle brought from home, but the water fountain is out of service and has been for a long time in my base. If I want a bottle of water during flight I am not permitted to buy one, however if the Cabin Crew break the rules and allow me it costs 2.50 a bottle.

You think you have it bad?

The Water system on board is non potable. I believe it was a cost cutting measure as the maintenance to keep the water at potable quality was too much. I am open to correction on that.

[ray cosmic]

There's tanks on board carrying potable water (used as well for making the coffee - for example). Since it's tanks, you can encounter all associated problems with fungus etc. It is not the same water used for flushing the toilets.
This water is indeed usually utilized for making coffee, tea and washing hands. I've never seen it used for drinking it straight as water. Problem might be the capacity of mentioned tanks; usually around 30 Gallons only.
Better buy that bottle, for your own wellbeing. Since you probably saved already no the ticket, this might be a wise investment.
Mind you, with Ryanair even the pilots don't get free water.
But isn't this what Low Cost is all about? You get what you pay for. If you don't pay anything, then it would be a bit dumb to expect something in return.

Edit: some insider comments by the previous poster, so some of mine are obsolete now.

[clearfinalsno1]

Carmoisine, that really is shocking and you clearly don't have enough time to get to the crew room on turn-arounds. Ray I accept your point and its not that I'm a skinflint. It's more to do with not letting a long established right slip away. It still amazes me how quickly Britain has accepted the culture of paying for water at Supermarkets when for years it has been drunk free from taps at no risk to health. This was my first experience on Ryanair. On Easyjet I have started asking for water in this way - it tastes fine and I suspect that they are just opening a bottle in the galley where I can't see it - I often got looks of envy from my fellow passengers when they see the hostess return with the free glass. Nevertheless, my initial question remains - does anyone know if it is a legal obligation of the airlines to provide potable (ie drinkable) water?

[Getoutofmygalley]

clearfinalsno1

If you ask for a glass of water (i.e. without paying) with easyJet, we do not just open a bottle in the galley for you, we just give you a glass of tap water from the galley tap, which is potable water.

[FerrypilotDK]

...and I can imagine that after you fil your water bottle, some airhead security person will tell you that you cannot bring it through security!!!!!

[BurglarsDog]

Something for nothing?

Why should water be free? Just cause it rains a lot?

Here in Oz water is becoming particularly scarce in many suburban areas and it aint free. Part of your rates go towards paying for its supply. Nothing in life is really free. Those bludging free water, as they are too tight to buy the commercial product,are still paying; because to finance this little freebee many businesses just add a few cents to everything else - user pays whether they know it or not. Maybe even a Ryanair ticket could drop 50pence if no-one asked for "free water" - unless it is a legal requirement to provide - which I doubt.

We run a cafe and sell bottled water. However to avoid daily discussion and arguement with those awkward customers that just want a free glass from the tap ,for this, and that, we provide a free service of ice cooled tap water from a large self fill container. I am under no legal obligation to provide it and in doing this I definitely lose bottled water sales. I am not in business out of curiosity and prefer to make a reasonable daily profit if at all possible!! But its less stressful to give it up free than explaining 20 times a day that water is only availaible to PURCHASE. We are after all a busines and not a charity. If I were Ryanair or any carrier and was burning fuel to lug bottled water around the planet I would politely advise that "free tap water is not availble". They could quote some H&S rule etc and Im sure most travellers would be none the wiser.

Long haul (Emirates) do provide it via a little tap in the aisl. Im sure many others do the same. But low cost is low cost. Do Jetst*r or VB provide it anyone?

BD

[Eboy]

Carmoisine, that is deplorable!
From a US view, I understand it is best to not drink water straight from the aircraft tap. There was some analysis done a couple years ago by the US Environmental Protection Agency that supported this. Here is one of many articles that appeared at the time.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/24/health/healthy_living/main676364.shtml
There is no rule I am aware of in the US requiring the serving of complimentary water, but all airlines I am familiar with will do so. I assume in Economy it is from bottled water, as it is in higher classes, but I am not sure!
In our litigious society, I expect the lawyers have some input into this -- wanting to avoid health-related lawsuits.

[nivsy]

Interesting thread. While I have agreement in statements that profit is the main driver for any business - there is also day light robbery and - while many customers do not want "something for nothing" there is a line to be drawn when having to pay say 1 pound for a small bottle of water when supermarkets retail at 20p for a litre bottle (at least here on the costa and Gibraltar).

It never fails to surprise me when some whinging "retailers" in bars etc have to price water in some areas at thousands of % mark up because they fail in many other selling techniques.

Yes SLF have to put up with what they paid for - however all the nw security rules and restrictions on acrrying liquids should mean that airlines could at least be a little more understanding. After all water is a living necessity and it would be a shame if it was just seen as a profit making measure by airline operators.


Nivsy

[Mr @ Spotty M]

If the Ryanair B737s have the vacuum toilet system, l think the same potable water tank supplies both galley and toilet flushing.:ok:

[IB4138]

You will scream if you go to Malaga airport then nivsy.

Catering franchise is owned by the FRENCH !

Prices are extortionate, 1.35 euro for a bottle of water.....
.....and it´s FRENCH !

Why, when Spanish water, either sin or con, is far cheaper, superior, doesn´t have to come so far and is readily available from numerous suppliers? Perrier is :yuk:

:mad:

[Leezyjet]

I thought by law the airline had to provide water for the flight crew. Our lot won't even take a positioning flight to/from LHR-LGW without bottled water, 2 meals each and enough soft drinks to supply a kiddies party !!.

It is a requirment to serve water to pax on l/haul flights, but not sure where the line is between short/medium/long with regards to the water.

I personally won't have anything that is made using the potable onboard water. Heard too many stories from engineers of what they find in those tanks !! :eek:

:)

[Pub User]

In my airline (UK charter) the water in the tap system is potable, and we have regulations about where we are allowed to uplift it. If we are forced to uplift elsewhere, the tanks have to be flushed afterwards, to prevent bacterial growth.

As an aside, it's not the same stuff used for flushing the loos - that's a self-contained system. However, the water used for flushing loos in my house is the same stuff that comes out of the taps, and I drink it and feed it to my children without worry.

[maxalt]

Nevertheless, my initial question remains - does anyone know if it is a legal obligation of the airlines to provide potable (ie drinkable) water?I'm not sure about licencing laws on board Irish a/c, but under Irish law any restaurant with an alcohol licence is required to be able to provide drinking water free of charge to customers. I've used the rule on occasion to straighten out sniffy waiters who prefer to see you pay for overpriced bottled water.

Someone would have to check out the regs regarding drinking water on board a/c. It might prove interesting.

However, the water used for flushing loos in my house is the same stuff that comes out of the taps, and I drink it and feed it to my children without worry.The water from your kitchen tap is almost certainly MAINS water, not TANK water.

I would avoid drinking the water from my bathroom taps. Aside from anything else it's usually tepid from being stored in the attic - and you can easily taste the difference from fresh mains water. Bathroom (tank) tap water is only fit for bathing in, or brushing teeth, or flushing loos.

[TightSlot]

it would be a shame if it was just seen as a profit making measure by airline operators

If it is a profit making measure by the airlines - Why shouldn't it be? :confused:

When asked for tap water, I serve free of charge tap water from the potable water tap in the galley - with a smile and a sweet attitude. If customers prefer bottled water, then it is available for purchase. That seems to be a pretty reasonable arrangement, and I sleep untroubled at night as a result.

Presumably, somebody will now explain why I shouldn't sleep that well? :E

[maxalt]

Presumably, somebody will now explain why I shouldn't sleep that well?Because if the water from the tap is of non-potable quality you may poison them. I guess if you or your company cared about their pax - or cockpit crew - you might find that somewhat worrying.

If you work for 'you know who' I guess you won't lose any more sleep than he would.

If it is a profit making measure by the airlines - Why shouldn't it be?Because - like most other short sighted 'profit making exercises' - when someone gets hurt the compo will transform the petty savings into a large cost.
Serves 'em right too.
Surprised a 'Moderator' couldn't think that through alone.

[SXB]

Maxalt

I can only presume that you didn't read the post properly. I quote When asked for tap water, I serve free of charge tap water from the potable water tap in the galley

This makes your retort Because if the water from the tap is of non-potable quality you may poison them. I guess if you or your company cared about their pax - or cockpit crew - you might find that somewhat worrying sound somewhat ridiculous.


Quote:
If it is a profit making measure by the airlines - Why shouldn't it be?
Because - like most other short sighted 'profit making exercises' - when someone gets hurt the compo will transform the petty savings into a large cost.
Serves 'em right too.
Surprised a 'Moderator' couldn't think that through alone.

If you don't want to pay for bottled water then fly with an airline that provides it free of charge or, as nothing is free, included in the ticket price

[TightSlot]

Because if the water from the tap is of non-potable qualityBut it isn't of non-potable quality - it is, in fact, potable: Both the potable water suppliers, and the airlines, go to some lengths to ensure that it is safe for human consumption. Every day, hundreds of thousands of people consume water, hot or cold, knowingly or unknowingly, from airline potable water tanks. If the situation was as catastrophically dangerous as is claimed, then illness and lawsuits would be endemic - they are not.

The EPA did some work on this and presented results in Jan 2005 - EPA Airline Water Supplies (http://www.epa.gov/safewater/airlinewater/questions.html). A brief look at this will always be a better source than internet rumours for taking an informed view. In short, while I would not pretend for a moment that airline potable water is everywhere perfect, the level of danger presented to both customers and crew is (based on the evidence available) nowhere near as high as is claimed.

maxalt - I can guess who you think I work for, and you would be incorrect. Your assumptions about my employers (and my own) attitude to both customers and crew are also incorrect.
Surprised a 'Moderator' couldn't think that through aloneThey hired me for my looks and my patience - I have my Dad to help me when thinking

[maxalt]

But it isn't of non-potable quality - it is, in fact, potable:
The EPA did some work on this and presented results in Jan 2005 - EPA Airline Water Supplies.

Had a quick look at your link and read this:

9. What should the traveling public do?
The traveling public may benefit from the information released by EPA when deciding how they use the water that comes from aircraft tanks. Passengers with suppressed immune systems or others concerned should request bottled or canned beverages while on the aircraft and refrain from drinking tea or coffee that does not use bottled water. While boiling water for one minute will remove pathogens from drinking water, the water used to prepare coffee and tea aboard a plane is not generally brought to a sufficiently high temperature to guarantee that pathogens are killed.

Were you using the link to convince us that onboard tap water is safe?:eek:
The study quotes nearly 20% of tested water to be contaminated!

[TightSlot]

I think that pursuing this will only end in tears of frustration (mine) - so you can have it now.

[maxalt]

yeah....which means I guess that we agree, it would be better if crew (and passengers) were provided with safe clean drinking water on board - certainly free of charge in the case of crew - and no excuses.
Painless, isn't it really.

[GlueBall]

During en route stop, travelling as a passenger, deplanning at Stockholm's Arlanda Airport, upon entering transit lounge my half-full 1-liter bottle of water was taken away from me "because it contained more than 100ml." Now why would I have to surrender my water coming off the airplane? [Upon exiting the sterile transit lounge 50 minutes later for the continuation of the flight, the same transit passengers again are made to pass through the same security checkpoint]. :ugh:

Oh, and yes, I am an airline pilot, but I can't understand the logic.

[k3lvc]

As SLF involved in the supply of items for on-board sale and retailing in the airport the naivety of some people amazes me. Lo-cost is exactly that for a reason in the same way as Full-Service needs no explanation - the lines blur in some middle ground cases but generally people should know what to expect. If I travel on Lo-Co I eat/drink beforehand and carry on a bottle of water (from the airport at a slightly less exhorbitant price than on-board) but I do this in the knowledge that generally the overall cost of the flight, food etc is less than the full-service price.

What may be more interesting for you to know is that your company sees selling water, tea, coffee, snacks etc as a profit generator - pax A has spent £5 + tax on a ticket but then spends another £5 on a coffee & sandwich of which £4 is profit. Your company generally will buy the product at a lower price than Tesco etc, will earn a substantial sum for 'advertising' the brand and still sell it at 3-4 times the retail price.

On this basis I can understand some airlines getting slightly miffed if staff were to hand out 'free' water. In an isolated instance this can be overlooked but start doing it for everyone and someone will soon cotton on and stop providing any form of cup on board. Let's be clear that society has moved on over the past years and everything has a cost to it which needs to be covered by someone and I'm sure crew wouldn't expect it to be from their wages.

I'll crawl back under my rock again and watch from a safe distance.

[VS-LHRCSA]

At Aer Arann (LTN), we were lucky if we had water to flush the toilet, let alone sell in the cabin.

Got to the point were I was bringing a thermos :* but at least when we did have bottled water, it was free for crew, as it should be.

[SXB]

K3LVC
I'd say you're a 100% correct.

It seems some forget that one of the reasons the locos provide cheap tickets is because they raise revenue from other sources (food, drink, preboarding charges etc) Take away this revenue and it will be added to the price of a ticket.

This is an utterly pointless thread, let's hope the Mod adds one of those little padlocks sometime soon.

[TightSlot]

This is an utterly pointless thread, let's hope the Mod adds one of those little padlocks sometime soon
I'd love to, but having contributed so vocally, it might be perceived that I had closed it in a snit (there's a lesson for me to learn in there somewhere!) - Therefore I was going to leave it alone in the hope that it would gracefully slide beneath the service in time, leaving maxalt with the last word, since that seems to be important to him/her.

[Rollingthunder]

I take a couple of bottles on-board, purchased gate-side at a shop or, in the case of LHR at the gate from the machines that seem to be at most gates (when the machines are actually working). No problems drinking coffee or tea on-board. My airline regularly checks the potable water supply and adds a purification chemical to ensure no bacterial growth (can't remember what it's called).

[IB4138]

This is an utterly pointless thread, let's hope the Mod adds one of those little padlocks sometime soon.

Lets hope someone locks your keyboard at the same time, if that is your attitude. :rolleyes:

hope that it would gracefully slide beneath the service in time

OOPs TightSlot, one of your fellow mods may have you for that!

Surely you mean "slide beneath the surface". :ooh:

[nivsy]

If a pax suffered severe dehydration on board for any number of reasons and did not have any money what then?

Kidding - already putting on coat:ouch:

[SXB]

If a pax suffered severe dehydration on board for any number of reasons and did not have any money what then?

Kidding - already putting on coat:ouch:


No need for the coat but I don't think even RYR would refuse a bottle of water to a visibly sick person.


Quote:
This is an utterly pointless thread, let's hope the Mod adds one of those little padlocks sometime soon.
Lets hope someone locks your keyboard at the same time, if that is your attitude. :rolleyes:


It's an utterly pointless thread.

[pacer142]

...and I can imagine that after you fil your water bottle, some airhead security person will tell you that you cannot bring it through security!!!!!


This is a problem at AMS, because there is at most gates (inside security) nowhere at all where a bottle of water can be purchased at any price, and even at the gates with vending machines they are often not stocked. The sealed bags are used for duty free but I don't believe they will put water in them even if you ask.

[maxalt]

It's an utterly pointless thread.
Not at all. To me it perfectly encapsulates the frustration and pettiness in the daily tedia foisted on humanity through the ignorant and relentless pursuit of corporate gain. A sort of 'parable of our times' in a way.

But if you keep waffling like that it will indeed become pointless.
Is that your aim?

[tankermytanker]

As far as the basic question of the thread, is it illegal not to supply drinking water, I thought it was a very valid question. And I'd still like to see the answer.

As far as 'utterly pointless' goes... well, of course, there's SO few threads on this site that you can't say the same of after they go through 10 posts or so.

Tank

[SXB]

Quote:
It's an utterly pointless thread.
Not at all. To me it perfectly encapsulates the frustration and pettiness in the daily tedia foisted on humanity through the ignorant and relentless pursuit of corporate gain. A sort of 'parable of our times' in a way.

But if you keep waffling like that it will indeed become pointless.
Is that your aim?


Maxalt
Do you actually read any of the posts before making a comment ? Firstly a CC member points out they serve potable water to passengers free of charge, you then accuse him and his company of being heartless for serving non-potable water :confused: You then admit that you like complaining about things in everyday life. Sorry, but we aren't interested. If you want free bottled water then travel with BA. If you just want to complain about stuff then join Which? or some other consumer organisation.

[SXB]

Tanker
Fair point.

[IB4138]

Sorry, but we aren't interested.

Would that be the royal "we"?

Who do you think you are?

You do not speak for me and probably not for several other people. :*

[SXB]

IB, If you want to counter any of the points I've made then please go ahead and do so but please reserve your drivel filled replies to Jet Blast, where you seem to spend most of your time.

A quick review of most of your previous posts reveals a pattern of frustrated complaints regarding petty subjects.