Captured Personnel Permitted to Tell Stories for Money

[navibrator]

:( Do we have no pride anymore or will we sell out to the highest bidder? This sickens me when others are dying out there. It also shows an amazing amount of insensitivity in a week when we lost another 4! Disgusted!

[Tiger_mate]

Ditto

We clearly are moving into a new era of military individual.

£100,000 from the tabloids for the female has been quoted. Shamefull.

[extpwron]

Unless all the money is donated to the benevolent funds.

[Albert Driver]

What's £100,000 when you've a cigarette and headscarf habit to feed?

[pigsinspace]

And if they get to make a few quid so what?

There is no difference in them selling their story and the other ex captives using their captivity to get high paying media jobs..ie Tornado aircrew.

A basic naval rating does not earn a fortune and they have been through a bad few weeks so good luck to them..

[navibrator]

The differance PigsinSpace is that we are still there doing a job! Careless talk costs lives - and who knows what will be true and exagerated to sell papers.

[flower]

It plays into the hands of the Iranians and makes everything the UK says or does seem highly dubious.
I expect nothing less however in Bliars world of spin.

[FantomZorbin]

So ... this is all part of a media circus and we (the public) are dumb enough to swallow any guff that tells us that it is 'all in the public interest' - what about the forces serving in theatre?. What :mad: in MOD sanctioned this? Whatever is 'revealed', in the ensuing frenzy of copy from the tabloids et al, will be used in varying degrees against the next batch of detainees when they are put in harms way without proper support/back-up.

The whole thing is so crass that one wonders whether the entire situation was engineered by Downing Street to drum up support against Iran for any future US action.

My deepest commiserations and sympathy to all those whose loved ones will never walk down the aircraft steps let alone to a big fat cheque.

B****y appalling :*

[snapper41]

If they have one shred of dignity left, they'll turn away from the media. Is this really what the British military has come to? They weren't badly treated, (like the Tornado aircrew pigsinspace refers to were, and who were actually fighting a war), and they cheapened themselves, their uniforms, their Service and their country by appearing on Iranian TV. Their conduct has been disgraceful; instead of promoting the stories, the MoD should be considering charges against them. Section 69, anyone?

[Jacks Down]

I thought their conduct whilst captive was questionable, but I wasn't there etc etc. However, this puts them firmly beyond the pale in my eyes. I really hope somebody is re-writing the rule book after this sorry experience.

[nigegilb]

I suspect, in part, the MoD agreed this to retain some kind of censorship. Have to say, I was surprised to hear them talking to the press about controlled release, cocking of weapons etc. What are the IRG going to do next time in order to scare their captives? And what are they going to be satisfied with in terms of information? The way the RN operates there is a real chance of more captives to come and the Iranians have already made it clear they would do it again.

This really is quite risky, we may well be at war with Iran soon. Rest assured that a British Govt would offer assistance to the US regardless of what they are saying at the moment. If I were one of the 15, I would look to make enough money to leave, or preferably not do it. This must be a career threatening thing to do.

[DME MILOS]

There's a very fine line between appearing on television because somebody in the wings has a gun against your friend's head, and selling your story to a tabloid hack for a huge paycheck. Is there no honour any more, or are we all so keen to become instant celebrities that we'll sell our souls? :(

[nigegilb]

General Jackson sold the rights to his story for £1m. The female here has been offered £150,000. That is a lot of money. I am sure it is very tempting, but how could you face your colleagues afterwards?

There is an element of hypocrosy here. I have little time for Jackson, he saw little active service in his time, but at least he waited until he left.

[pigsinspace]

I would guess some of those guys and girl will now be leaving the "service" I for one would not go back if I had been through their experiences.

I dont blame them for making money.. not one bit.... and to the buffoon who said the Tornado pilots were fighting a real war........what are we doing in Iraq or Afghanistan now?

[HEDP]

IMHO I sincerely hope that the authorisation to take the money will be turned down whatever the destination of the cash.

I think it is disgraceful that profit should be made from such a shoddy affair.

I can only begin to imagine the damage that this will do to the standing of our armed forces if it is to go ahead.

And just for good measure, I hope that I never have to serve with anyone who would countenance such an option.

This is of course merely the opinion of my 26 years service that I have no doubt will now be riduiculed by all and sundry.

Disgusted,

HEDP

[Gnd]

Not to sure what I would do, but, I think I would take every penny I could get off the blood sucking journos - just try to be cleaver enough to scr*w the Blair MoD killing machine in the process!!:cool:

[ZH875]

Permission to sell thier 'Story' is probably aimed at working like an FRI.

You can sell your 'Story' if you promise to do 5 more years in HMs Finest.

Either that or what if:

In the same scenario questions as Kamikaze Pilots:

The released troops threaten to sue MOD and President Bliar under the H&S act for not providing them the correct tools and a safe place of work. As this has Human Rights issues, they could get First Lady Booth to represent them, so they get permission to sell their stories, and remain in the Forces, BUT, due to the treatment they (may) get from their comrades, they are forced out of the Forces and claim constructive dismissal, therefore getting lots more money.

This would mean that as a result of promising not to sue, they would be looked after for life.


Just a scenario...nothing inferred.


But then again ......

Maybe, they all went to discharge their weapons on the 'enemy' but forgot to take the safety catch off....:ouch:

[MReyn24050]

It certainly looks as though the lunatics have taken over the asylum, with this Government what can one expect. Where has the loyalty, integrity and honour gone that once was the core of HM Forces. In a week when we have six service personnel returning to the UK in body bags and we have these 15 returning to the UK via business class on British Airways carrying their goody bags presented to them by their captors who we are told blindfolded handcuffed, and pushed them against a wall and then stuffed them into cells not allowing them to see another human being for six days. Now, they are free to publish their stories and become celebrities.

The Sunday Telegraph reports:- An MOD source said “ From the moment of their release, the families and friends of the Servicemen were bombarded with cash offers. We are talking about life-changing sums of money being offered to people”. Yes these individuals went through a very stressful time but at least they came out of it alive.

It just sickens me when I think of all the grief that the families of those who have lost their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan, those who have been injured and disabled during this conflict and the families still waiting for Inquest’s to be held on their loved ones. What sort of message does this give to them?

[Smoketoomuch]

A cynic might suggest that this is a sneaky but deliberate attempt by the government/MoD to discredit the 'Iran 15' - and in some eyes they are already regarded with some disdain - and by extension discredit the whole UK armed forces. It will make the next defence cuts so much easier to push through. Lack of equipment? Who cares. Shoddy medical care? Well they can afford to go private now surely.

Whatever the reasons for this decision - rest assured it has nothing whatsoever to do with the welfare or wishes of the 15.

[PompeySailor]

I actually believe the Iranian version of events anyway. Having seen this government lie, cheat, steal and generally behave like scum (with proof - cash for honours, pension schemes, house buying/sell offs, drug dealing and using ministers offspring, etc), I believe the Iranian government probably have far more integrity.

I wonder if we could cast Blair, Brown and Prescott adrift in Iranian waters? Of course, we would have to hope they were picked up before Prescott ate the other two.

[Proletarian]

Not for the first time in the Tony B Liar era, the general public and the press appear confused. IMHO all the captured service personnel were victims, rather than heroes and I believe we should differentiate between the two. If any of them has a shred of decency they will keep their memories of what happened to them during this sad, sorry incident out of the public domain. Of course they should be thoroughly de-briefed so that their experiences can be recorded and used to inform other personnel who might have to face a similar situation in future. However, a spate of service personnel displaying emotional incontinence in print and probably on TV will do nothing for the standing of the armed forces and is an insult to all those who have been killed or wounded in this conflict.

[PompeySailor]

They are on two weeks leave to "recuperate and recover". Apparently this also includes finding an agent and flogging their stories around the press. Pitiful. If they are fit enough for that, they should be back on a plane (NOT first class) to the ship were the rest of the crew are having to cover duties, watches and work for them.

Does it say "government puppet" in their job descriptions - and does the Official Secrets Act and "contact with the press" no longer count?

[oldfella]

The behaviour of the hostages while in captivity is down to their briefing, interpretation of orders, training or the lack of it, and their own conscience. I cannot knock any of their actions as I wasn't there and didn't share their fears or worries. debrief will fall on others well above my pay grade.

HOWEVER, to give interviews to any part of the media, and accept payment for that, while serving, goes against everything and sickens me.

Whether I agree with the right or wrong of the conficts is immaterial. On the day of their release there was a repatriation ceremony and the news of four more military deaths and the death of a civilian interpreter. That is a large number of family and friends in mourning, awaiting the pain of the eventual repatriation, the suffering and grief at the funerals, the anguish of waiting for inquests.

Anyone making money from this incident, whether it goes to a charity or not, may have money in the bank but they have no dignity.

[PompeySailor]

It seems that Royal is going to pool their money, and give 10% to a Service Charity, whilst Jack and Jenny are going to keep theirs. Not for long, no doubt, once public opinion turns against them. Shameful state of affairs, but they will realise once they are back on the messdecks and the error of their ways is explained to them if they do not donate at least some of the cash.

[An Teallach]

Of course the NuLab MoD wants to turn this into a reality TV meeja circus, they are masters of spin. While the Great British Press wallows in personal tragedies, photo opps and post-feminist discussions of who's minding the baby; no-one will be asking the real questions such as why has the RN been reduced to such a state that we have people trying to operate unsupported in dangerous waters with a few rubber boats, pistols and Palitoy SA80s between them? Especially after the IRG had boasted beforehand that they wanted some western captives in retaliation for their men captured by the US in Iraq.

There's a reason the IRG thought the UK Forces were the soft touch of the coalition.

[Two's in]

I struggle somewhat with the theatrical outrage expressed here along with the accusations of disloyalty or lack of integrity by these individuals. They were simply a small interlude in a long running act of international deceit and moral bankruptcy by this Government. They were captured and treated a lot less cruelly or randomly than we have done so, or aided and abetted others to do so, in that masterful brush stroke of all-encompassing guilt currently known as "The Global War on Terror", and unlike hundreds of others, they have at least been released by the Iranians. We stomp around the Globe like it was 1856 all over again and act all surprised when someone takes issue with that. Apparently we are now just learning that behaving like despots, or more accurately, aligning ourselves with people that do, may indeed have consequences for our moral standing in the world.


Other poster have alluded to the "shoddy" conduct after capture of these individuals and drawn parallels with WWII POW's. That parallel is both hugely insulting and disingenuous. Those earlier personnel were not representing an opportunistic spin-artist and his megalomaniac buddies in the USA, they never questioned the legality of why they were in a theater of operations, they always knew their actions were rightful and virtuous. By comparison, the recent guests of Mr Ahmadinejad were stopping internationally flagged vessels in an area where the boundaries had many, many, years of documented vagueness and opacity; supporting the actions of 2 Western Powers (save your breath even mentioning ''coalition") who are desperately trying to halt a civil war ignited and fomented by their own actions, adjacent to a country that has had its history altered forever by the actions of those same 2 Western Powers.

Why would you assume the moral high ground and righteous indignation if you were one of those 15 personnel? You are nothing but the agent of war-mongers and international bullying. They should spend every penny of their windfalls with a clear conscience and consider it a fair price for being a mercenary of those who would profit from delivering global misery while claiming to be fighting "The Global War on Terror".

There is indeed much shame from this episode, and it can all be traced right back to Tony and his Special Relationship.

[ZH875]

Just think, how many will volunteer to man the shipping checking boats when this resumes,

Great Idea:

Get in patrol boat, hand yourselves in to the Iranians, have two weeks holiday, fly home first class, sell your story, and never have to do it again.


JK Rowling couldn't have thought of a better script.

[An Teallach]

http://heady.co.uk/rm/daviran.jpg

Given his sense of humour and choice of subjects, I'm getting more and more convinced Beau Bo D'Or (http://www.bbdo.co.uk/blog/archives/387) is late of HM Forces.

[tablet_eraser]

FFS. How impressively tall people's horses are.

That the MOD's decision is appalling, there can be no doubt. But to blame the individuals and to use terms like "holiday in Iran" to describe their ordeal is a bit unfair. I don't think it's fair to blame them because some misguided civil serpent tore up decades of procedure and military impartiality in this way.

I agree, those who have any sense of dignity will turn down the cash or, as Lt Carman has said, will donate it to charity. Surely, though, there is no justification in diminishing their ordeals because some fool at Main Bldg decided the sensible thing to do would be to generate an even larger media circus by making such a wrongheaded decision?

Ex-FCO twit Craig Murray: The idea that you can make several years' pay out of being captured - as opposed to not being captured and doing your job normally - is a rather strange incentive system.

Aaaah... so, they got caught on purpose or through lack of courage? Is this man talking about the same story of illegal Iranian piracy as everyone else?

[nigegilb]

Jees two's in; I take my hat off to you. You have summed up in a couple of paras all the reasons why I was so glad to go before the start of the Iraq war-stellar posting. It is neat that Big Brother Britain finally links up with UK Armed Forces. If ever anyone was thinking of leaving surely this is the final nail. What is the point in slaving away in Iraq for another 5 years when everyone else is having a good time in Blair's Britain?

The lunatics have definitely taken over. The MoD will regret this. All those contracts signed by SF personnel should be burned. This will turn into a free for all.

Morons.

[navibrator]

With your attitude, why do you read this forum? Let's remember which nation led this affair! Oh - yours! This has nothing to do with government policy - the UK military is non-political. This has to do with military code - one which has sttod us well in the past and which, if over turned, will cause many problems in the future.

[Radar Command T/O]

Very, very dangerous precedent.

MOD has just opened itself up to all sorts of representations in the future.

Just wait for the next time something unpleasant happens to a Serviceman/woman and they don't get to make a buck or 100,000 out of it.

[dallas]

The MoD PR Dept were clearly on Bank Holiday manning.

Very bad call.

[derbyshire]

...... men will still say "This was their finest hour" :rolleyes:

[toddbabe]

I don't blame the guys and girl for cashing in if they are allowed/encouraged to do so! 100k would be more than enough for me to bang in the PVR and look for a new job.
What is wrong is that they are being allowed to do so!!!! WRONG WRONG WRONG! THERE ARE FAR MORE EXCITING AND ENDURING STORIES OF COURAGE ( oops caps lock!) out there to be told but a nobody is trying to and B they aren't allowed under the official secrets act.
Pigskingamabob the tornado aircrew you refer to waited till they left the mob before they cashed in, and were significantly worse treated than the 15 Naval personnel.

[Low Flier]

It's the Bliarite aspect of the compensation culture. We're stuck with it.

[Two's in]

Navibrator, allow me to be a little self indulgent with simply a point of reference only, but the poster's details say "Location", and not "affiliation"; so as touched as I am by your assertion that I am in some way behind the imperialist running dogs of the Great Satan, I am sadly just another retired warrior, who religiously polishes my commissioning scroll from Betty Windsor every night, thinking wistfully of the good old days when men were men, and wars were fought for wholly defensible reasons. I am also well under 50 and still have many colleagues exposed to the dangers and risks of combat every single day. When I sign myself "Retired Military" it is simply an expression of loyalty and respect to every serving member of HM Forces, Light Blue, Dark Blue or Green (red trousers of course for Late Cavalry). As a civilian, I also reserve and exploit the right the say exactly what I think of the charlatans and opportunists that laughingly pass for a UK Government these days.

[Never Alert]

At the end of the day, the MoD has no real power to stop anyone writing a book about their time in the forces and making money from it.

Looking for Trouble
Bravo Two Zero
Tornado Down
Sea Harrier over the Falklands

etc etc.

IMHO, the real issue is the MoD believing that it has the right to stop these people telling their stories. I don't think the Official Secrets Act would cover any aspect of the Royal Marine's and Mateloe's time in Iranian hands.

Let them earn a few quid. Gordon Brown is not exactly throwing money at us these days so, fair play to them.

[Kitbag]

Quick thought- I find it very unlikely that a Civil Servant would go against many years of custom and precedent and take the decision to authorise this sale, no doubt they have given their advice. The decision to allow the selling of these stories to the press is IMO wholly political, ie, one of our 'elected' representatives thinks this is a good idea. I hesitate to speculate as to the desired outcome, but improving relations and reducing tensions between UK and Iran isn't going to be to of the list.

[SPIT]

Any guess as to "HOW LONG" it will be before we hear some have BOUGHT THEIR WAY OUT and say THEY ARE SUFFERING FROM "STRESS" , as if the poor servicemen and women in AFGANISTAN and IRAQ don't:mad: :mad:

[papajuliet]

It's one thing for people who have left the Forces to sell their story but quite another for serving members to do so. I think it's despicable and it's going to reflect very badly on everyone in the Forces both at home and abroad.
Our reputation has been taking some hard knocks recently, this will be greeted with ridicule worldwide. Another propaganda victory handed on a plate to our detractors.

[JessTheDog]

The rot comes from the top. When former ministers, their spin doctors and senior officers chase six-figure sums when the ink is barely dry on their retirement card, it is not surprising that others follow.

[JFZ90]

If you read the MoD statement - it looks as though the press issue has been driven by the media pressure on families, which in turn has led to some of the 15 seeking permission from the Navy. Hence the MoD appears to be left with little choice - either:
a) refuse them permission - loosing all control of the story that would leak out via families, and have MoD being accused of a cover up! or
b) grant permission for reasons mentioned below.
I tend to agree with the sentiment that this isn't really the done thing though - was a) really an option for MoD?


--------------

The Ministry of Defence has issued the following statement regarding the decision by the Royal Navy to allow the personnel who were seized by the Iranian authorities on 23 March 2007 to be allowed to receive payment for media interviews.
MOD Announcement . Opens in a new window.

MOD Announcement

Service personnel must seek permission from the Chain of Command before speaking to the media. Queen’s Regulations for the Royal Navy allow personnel to retain fees paid to them for broadcasting, lecturing or writing for publication under certain circumstances and the Navy’s judgement was that in this particular instance this was such a case.

This decision has been taken as a result of exceptional media interest. It is a fact that the media have been making direct contact with the families and offering them significant sums of money – this is not something that the Navy and the MOD have any control over.

Quite aside from the ‘human interest story’ surrounding these individuals, there are also sensitive strategic issues in play. It was clear that the stories they had to tell were likely to have emerged via family and friends regardless of any decision the Navy took.

It was therefore decided to grant permission to speak to the media to those personnel that sought it, in order to ensure that the Navy and the MOD had sight of what they were going to say – as well as providing proper media support to the sailors and Marines in the same way as would have been the case in more ordinary circumstances.

[Duckandcover]

It is shameful that "we" have allowed these personnel to face the judgement of the nation in this way.

[Heliport]

From the BBC website
PR agent Max Clifford has confirmed some of the group had already approached him for advice.

[dogrobber]

coudnt agree more ...lie back open ur legs and something in the mod will fill it up, having being a fundemental part of equal oppertunities in the armed forces ,this kind of mercenerry oppurtunism belittles all of the inroads that we have tried to instill, i read this article ,in particular, and was stunned by the way the individual concerned managed to manipulate a media situation that totally removed any blame, team ethos, concern , ( for the rest of the crew), and an obligation to duty,that she signed up for.......shame on her and for irresponsible reporting.:{

[dogrobber]

sorry if this sound a bit crude ,but any time money is thrown around, all the moralistic approaches seem to get dumped for a for a papparizi pay day......would we do the same ......i hope there is some honour, integrity, and good leadership left....oh and yes i,m still serving.....remeber when that word meant something..(to serve..and be served)

[Tigs2]

I dont know how the Mil will legally be able to stand the potential onslaught of ' i have been there, seen it, so print it' stories. There are MANY who have seen and done things that would make for good reading right now, but as serving personnel it is neither allowed or wise, because of opsec etc. This is a dangerous precedent that has been set and i cannot see now why anyone cannot go to print whilst still serving. The lawers will have a hayday. I bet Max Clifford never thought he might have 50 000 serving members of HM forces on his books. A very bad call, that will return to bite with avengance.

[navibrator]

Sorry John - having listened to what you said this morning on BBC, I must say you are wrong. Wrong because all of the people you quoted as writing books or stories either had, or will have left their job or in your case, the war was over. We have a situation here where these people are a: still in the Service; b: we are still operating in the area and c: it doesn't comply with the normal rules!

I wonder having told their story, how many will actually return to their ship!

[White Noise]

As a serving member I cannot comment or discuss in depth about this subject much that I would like, However i am shocked and thorougly appalled at this circus. I am pretty sure these boys and girls would have been trained in what to expect ! but to make large financial gain when many are losing thier lives for less. Thats what they get the operational bonus for ! Enough said.:mad:

[threepointonefour]

I've pondered over this for a good few minutes now, and have come to the following conclusions;

1. The hypocrisy of our government is unbelievable - allowing this media circus after criticising the Iranians.

2. Each of the captives is surely subject to the Official Secrets Act and therefore prevented from speaking to anyone outside the service about their experiences - any breach of this could compromise existing operations and should be subject to a severe punishment. The breach would be easily traceable and should therefore prevent loose tongues.

3. I cannot comment on the captives' reactions whilst in Iran as I wasn't there.

4. I think that for the captives, sums up to £150k are a lot of money, and I too would be hard pushed to turn it down if I earned <£20k pa.

5. The crux of this, is that the conflict is still 'live', as opposed to JN and Andy McNab's post GW books/interviews. Our servicemen and women are still dying in Iraq/Afghanistan and their families will not profit in the same way; it does seem unfair.


It's done now.

In the (adjusted) words of Green Day,
Don't want to be a British Idiot,
Don't want to be a Nation under the new media,
Hey can you hear the sound of hysteria ....



** DON'T BUY THE NEWSPAPERS **

The problem, is that we won't. The "British Idiot" will.

[The Burning Bush]

Only under Labour could this have happened:ugh:

Must say, when I heard the 'hostages' were to be allowed to sell their 'stories' I made a number of quiet predictions:

1. The female would definitely sell her story.

2. She would end up having to leave the military as a result due to resentment from work colleagues.

3. The Royal Marines would not sell their stories.

Seem to be on the money so far:E

[Nomad72]

Just seen the Naval Officer in the party (FC) interviewed live on Sky. He defended the right of some of the party to sell their story to ensure the correct facts came out and others didn't profit. However, he is doing all interviews for free as he believes the money offered by the the press is unsavoury. Spot on in my view, couldn't agree more.:ok:

Have to say that compared with the countless interviews I have seen with politicos and the like, he came over as extremley articulate and down to earth. An excellent advert for the british military which made me proud to be a member.

[FE Hoppy]

It seems to me that many use the “I blame their leaders, the government, the MoD, their parents, anything but themselves” as an excuse for disgraceful, demeaning and downright cowardly behaviour.
The conduct of most of these service personnel has been appalling throughout this affair. And I include their time in Iran.
No I wasn’t there. No in my time in the military I wasn’t in a similar position. BUT I can categorically say that if I had been I would not have acted in the same manner. I had and still posses self respect, dignity and the balls to live up to the traditions and codes that once made our nation great. It was individuals that made the nations reputation and it is individuals who are now destroying it.
And gentlemen in England now-a-bed
Shall think themselves accurs'd they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

[TicketyBoo]

I wonder about the media in this whole business.

For 4 years the RN, and lots of other navies, have patrolled the gulf, and boarded shipping, without arousing a glimmer of interest in the press/tv.

It's only when something goes wrong that there's a story worth paying for.

[Klingon]

Sick :yuk: That G2 wasn't good enough to foresee such an event.
Sick :yuk: That they were allowed to operate in an area without top cover.
Sick :yuk: That once caught they behaved in a manner that cheapened the uniform they wore. What type of employment did they think they were taking up? The Marines would have undergone some form of RTI/CUC training so they should have anticipated the type of treatment they would receive.
Sick :yuk: That the government once again allowed themselves to be outmanouvered and embarrassed diplomatically.
Sick :yuk: That the First Sea Lord and the rest of the high and mighty are even considering giving permission for this bunch of lame arses to profit irrespective of the media pressures and eventual outcome of media leaks.
Sick :yuk: That 35 years of pride in the traditional service ideology of keeping shtum has been wasted. We have all known for some time that keeping a secret isnt in the current handbook for politicians and civil servants but for the military to follow this road is sickening.
(If I had know this was going to happen I would have kicked that ba**ard marine who rough handled me during CSRO training a good one in the goolies.)
We weren't there and dont know what pressure they were put under but after this every serviceman need to rethink their ideas on how they are going to act under capture and the MOD need to rethink what it expects. The phrase " We all know what to expect!" ,or something similar, has just been made a lie.
Sick :yuk: Of listening to those parents and relatives who are happy to brag about their little boy/girl who is/are in the services who then immediately become the distraught victim of the "unjust war" the second their little Timmy or Tina gets into hot water. Round of appluse for the majority of families who bear their grief stoically (and in private) for it is those who are being let down by this latest farce.

[28L]

Just as an interested civvie, I see from today's Sunday Mirror (didn't buy it, just browsed the front page....and I know that's a pathetic excuse) that the guy who sold his story to that paper claims the Iranians knicked his iPod.
Is it normal to carry an MP3 player in action? And no, I don't believe everything I read in the Press.
Guilty as charged of not being there, nor even in the Forces, but deeply embarrassed to be a Brit an the moment.

[Mr C Hinecap]

I'm surprised and disappointed that this is being allowed to happen. Some damned spin doctor has said this was a good idea and damned us all with their advice - without thought for those with greater stories / hardship / loss / trouble / strife etc etc.

Another nail in the coffin of retention and standards.

[Barn Doors]

John,

Could you please, this once, just once, tell Sky, BBC, ITV, whoever you are contracted with to get your former RAF job correct?!

You were a NAVIGATOR not a pilot.

:= := := :=

[ORAC]

Excellent article/blog in the Torygraph:

British humiliation becomes disgrace (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/foreign/tobyharnden/april07/humiliation.htm)

...........Servicemen and women should be held to a higher standard than civilians, though listening to the six of the 15 who spoke on their return it was hard to believe these were military personnel...

So what should be done about this debacle? First, Tony Blair should step in now and direct that monies any of the 15 receive from newspapers as a result of their "ordeal" should be donated to the Royal Navy Benevolent Trust. Second, a naval Board of Inquiry - leading to possible courts martial for the captain of HMS Cornwall and other senior officers - should be held into the circumstances surrounding the seizing of the two RIBs by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard....

Why is Britain training officers who seem to think that their number one priority is to do nothing that could risk the lives of personnel? Why did they not have the most basic appreciation of how their briefings and apologies in front of nautical charts would be used for propaganda purposes? Why did many of the 15 - with Lt Carman front and centre - believe it was appropriate to greet the news of their release with giddy excitement, grins, waves, back-slapping and grovelling gratitude to President Ahmadinejad ?...

I've re-watched the return press conference (in which Carman, Air, Massey, Batchelor, Tindell and Sperry spoke). Note how Air and Carman refer to LS Turney as "Faye" (Carman: "Faye is a young mother and a wife"; Air: "Being in an Islamic country, Faye was subjected to different rules than we were.") To me, that betrays a lot. Officers should refer to sailors by their rank and surname. To do otherwise is an insult to their professional status. But then look at the MoD website in which Air and Carman are listed as "Chris" and "Felix" - this slack ethos comes from the top. Any sense of a command structure appears to have broken down. Carman stated: "We all at one time or another made a conscious decision to make a controlled release of non-operational information."....

The 15 personnel are not those most at fault here. They were serving their country and trying to do their best and were badly let down by those who trained, briefed and tasked them......

In the meantime, those of us who are proud to have served in the Royal Navy and HMS Cornwall can only shake our heads in disbelief and sadness.

[JFZ90]

Not sure I have too big a problem with conduct whilst in Iran - survival should have been a key issue.
To be honest the Iran stunt of making them say they were in Iranian waters when it is pretty clear they weren't just confirms my fears about how trustworthy the current regime are (i.e. not at all) - and makes Iran look quite rather childish / dangerous. Weren't some of the GW1 aircrew forced to denounce the war etc. on telly under duress?
Its the "sell your story" aspect I really can't quite get my head around. Just feels all wrong, and I'm not sure MoD in the widest sense (or Browne/Blair) can pick up all the blame.

[number-cruncher]

Pay peanuts.....you get monkeys.
Whilst everyone is clearly entitled to their opinion with regards to the 15 being paid for their stories, someone please remind me why we are in that part of the world again ???? What is it really all about ???

[ZH875]

The Ministry of Defence has banned personnel from selling their stories to the media until a review of the rules governing the issue is completed.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6538921.stm

Is their case for discrimination now, if anyone elese wants to sell their 'story'?

[breakscrew]

A gutless and gormless bunch; a sad indictment of the modern Royal Navy, who were once a strong and proud service. No longer it seems. Poor Nelson will be turning in his grave.
I bet the naval benevolent fund does not see a penny.

[Klingon]

He told the newspaper: "A guard kept flicking my neck with his index finger and thumb. I thought the worst, we've all seen the videos. I was frozen in terror and just stared into the darkness of my blindfold."
Holy Crap Batman! I wish he'd seen the bruises left on my body by that very bad boy at the desk behind me. :yuk:

[samuraimatt]

From the BBC News site

"Meanwhile Arthur Batchelor, 20, the youngest of the British sailors to be held captive, told the Daily Mirror about his "nightmare" at the hands of his captors and how he "cried like a baby" in his cell."

Well I guess he is now laughing all the way to the bank.

[wokkameister]

I'm sorry but I think the RN personnel have shown themselves and their service in a poor light.

Granted, we were not present in Tehran, but the media coverage didn't show beaten personnel reading a preprepared script, as happened with the two Johns in 1991. It showed RN personnel gushing forth apologies and explanations of why they were in the wrong.
'Felix' pointing at a large map and spouting on like a demented weatherman, all rather pitiful. What was their tipping point....the threat to remove the chess board?

As for selling their stories, a large stride in the wrong direction by the MOD, though it reeks of either a New Labour stunt, or an attempt by a hollow, PR obsessed RN to claw back some credibility. Either way, it is rather sad.

I have witnessed far greater feats of heroism both in the air and on the ground. I have nothing but the highest respect for the Warrior crew killed last week. They know the threat is real, yet face it every single day of their 6 month tour. I doubt very much whether the sound of a rifle being cocked would have them cowering in the corner.

2 Weeks 'compassionate' leave and £150000? Maybe a P45 and an Iranian passport would be more apt

[GengisKhant]

So the MOD have now decided to review the latest ruling to allow future disclosures of "operations" or their fall-out..., to the press...., and revert to the original instructions which are clearly stated in QRs. Strikes me that someone was a bit slow in closing the barn door...., methinks that MOD will rue the day they took this decision.

I now see that Faye is appearing on ITV "Faye's Story" on the program 'A Tonight Special'..., is the next thing..., 'I'm a Celebrity - Get me out of here' ?

By all means..., screw the journos for all you can get, but as far as those who have "signed-up" to a deal with the press...., I believe that their only way out of this..., and their road back to some sort of normality and standing with their colleagues, is to donate their fees to the appropriate benevolent fund that supports their Service.


:\ GengisK

[SRENNAPS]

I seem to get the impression that the Navy gets the blame for this cock up and the MOD are innocent !!!!!!!!!

[dakkg651]

Can I apologise on behalf of all the decent people of Shrewsbury for what we are about to witness on TV at 20.00. May I emphasise that this Turney bimbo is not a native of this town, but a traitoress from a not so civilised area.

Pity treason is no longer a hanging offence.

Disgusting.

[C130 Techie]

This whole affair and the farcical way it has been conducted by the govt and MOD does nothing but further undermine the public perception of the military at a time when we need all the support we can get.

[AJ39]

Its a dark day for the forces I fear.

Its the hard working people currently on Ops, who will feel let down most by these greedy, unprofessional and "celebrity seeking" individuals. Its an absolute disgrace!

Admittedly, it was pure PR spin in Iran (however, put yourself in their shoes folks, for a brief moment). But ever since they had been released, the PR train steamed ever forward, at the detriment of the three services and serving service individuals.

The Government nor the MOD has come out of this with any credibility at all. The staged scenes we saw in Iran, have been paled into insignificance since the hostage circus came home. Lets all hope this is a nasty dream, and we wake up for work, with all our professional integrity intact.

[The Burning Bush]

Well, having watched a bit of the ITV thing, it would appear that 'Faye' wasn't starved during her short stay in Iran:E

[AJ39]

"cocking of rifles", Or was it 'Faye' just scraping the inside of the metal bowls, obtaining the remnants of the chicken balti, which was supposed to feed ALL the crew.

I ask you....

[BEagle]

First they can, now they can't....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6538921.stm

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1259729,00.html

It seems that Dismal Desmond has suddenly realised that letting people sell stories to the jackals of the press within 24 hours of repatriation Is Not A Good Thing....:rolleyes:

Is it nowadays totally impossible for the idiotic Ministry of Dimwits to assemble their excreta and hosiery correctly....??

[ORAC]

Oh Tempora! Oh Mores!

And I just hope "Faye" is aware of the total disaster she has proved to be for women in the Armed Forces....

Mother Of All Blunders (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/06/AR2007040601549.html). With roles models like her, who needs enemies.

[Ali Barber]

They're just responding to public pressure - rather than having a policy and following it. Now, if we all start shouting that they should be able to sell their stories, and switch back when they change their minds again, we could have them really dizzy by the end of the week!

[airborne_artist]

I think we used to call it "Greatcoats on, greatcoats off" :E

[cornish-stormrider]

You put your left foot in............
You take your left foot out,
you chop the budget up
and send all the boys out

you start 3 wars
and lie about it all
oh spin Tony Spin

etc etc

[Archimedes]

Inevitable really...

1) CGS thinks 'Harumph. Not happening with any of my lot, whatever main building thinks.' Issues succinct order to this effect.

2) CGS's order passed round army

3) News of CGS's order reaches media

4) News of CGS's order reaching media reaches Swiss Des

5) Swiss Des remembers CGS is Man With Whom One Does Not Trifle (see Daily Mail interview).

6) Swiss Des panics and thinks of what may happen if CGS is said by media (who seem to like CGS) to be telling colleagues that Tony, Gordon and Des are bunch of blundering incompetents.

7) Swiss Des issues instructions that his last lot of instructions are now to be ignored and that anyone ignoring instruction to ignore instructions to ignore long-standing instructions that one does not talk to press will be in trouble.At least until he issues another set of instructions that make him look even more of a spineless, weak-willed Sec of State emerge.

Or something like that...

[reallydeskbound]

Archimedes - excellent -

You have highlighted the inadequacies of leadership in this government and the MOD perfectly!

Keep it up!

[YesTAM]

Nah! There is now a real fear that British forces will surrender to Iranians at the slightest opportunity so as to make seventy thousand quid on release.

[Talking Radalt]

It's ok. I saw a clip of Faye (as in Faye-mous for fifteen minutes) on ITN tonight as a bit of a prequel to the full interview being screened tomorrow.
Apparently "a percentage" of her newly found wonga is going to HMS Cornwall. Great, new DVDs and a Playstation3 all round.:}
Just how much is "a percentage"?:hmm:

[Mal Drop]

Just wondering what the thinking on this is at SCSR... Will those on the RTI phase now be instructed that if someone is doing a bit of woodwork in the vicinity or kicks your iPod or mutters something a tad disheartening at you then the new government approved procedure is to admit to anything and sign a confession?

Thankfully we have heard little of those members of the 15 who seem to have followed the basics and stayed schtum. Those are the people who would be most likely to have some form of military career left after this debacle. Those are the ones who honoured the contract (not that much in the way of honour has been shown by the other party to it).

As for the salad-dodger, I have a feeling that the Celebrity Big Brother lack-of-talent scouts will be salivating in their sleep about the possibilities there. Pray that she keeps her kit on...

[Lima Juliet]

Mal Drop

salad-dodger - very amusing!

Don't forget that your behaviour as a hostage can be totally different to that of being a POW (or PW for the weirdos amongst us) - ask your friendly SEREO (or weirdo) for more details.

Anyway, I reckon the woodworking noises were the guards widening the prison doorframes having been "well fed and looked after", hence the woman coming in to measure up! ;)

LJ

[Pontius Navigator]

Don't forget GGG will keet near £60000 of the dosh in tax.

[Pontius Navigator]

Leon, perhaps there were other reasons Cornwall could not go in after them. Archimedes and all that.

[cynicalint]

I'm intrigued as to why the media are escaping without mention - these are the ones who are offering to buy stories! If cheque-book journalism was made illegal then we may start to see facts, news and observations published instead of salacious gossip, sentsational 'scoops' and straight forward inaccurate specualtion.

If a story is newsworthy and reportable, the papers should certainly not have to offer large sums of money to print it - who knows, with decent, accurate articles, more people would buy a 'Newspaper' without the barons having to resort to such distasteful practices to increase daily sales.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Cynic

Point the finger at the media all you want, but the bottom line is that until people in this country stop buying such bull**** as the Sun, and stop watching sensationalistic programming like Tonight With Tevor MacDonald, then this kind of thing will keep happening.

It's a supply and demand thing, you see. :ugh:

[Pontius Navigator]

I must have slept through the TMcD interview last night. Didn't remember half of what was said, as reported by the Torygraph.

RPG to the head, rape, coffin, the bricks in the cell must have been f:mad: big bricks if there was only 135 of them. Carpet? Patterned? Bedding with fleas - don't remember that either.

I did remember the bit about bits on her face.

Can't wait for the book. Should make for a rivetting read.

[airborne_artist]

Comment in the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/04/10/do1001.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_10042007)

"But of even more concern, believe several former defence chiefs, is that too many of the MOD's civil servants are not reflecting the best interests of the Armed Forces in their advice to ministers. Their eyes and ears are more attuned to the demands from across Whitehall, in the Treasury than to the needs of troops on operations in distant countries of which they know little."
Cheque book journalism would continue via other routes - you can't ban such a practice.

What you can do is:

a) reduce the military cock-ups by planning, developing proper SOPs, and spending time and money on acquiring the right kit for the task:

eg: "The Deputy Chief of Defence Staff (Commitments), Vice-Admiral Charles Style, the MOD officer directly responsible for issuing the operational directives to the forces through the PJHQ, said on television last week that it was because they had conducted so many boardings recently without incident."

and b) join-up the thinking - this one was coming from the time the hostages were taken. Were they planning for their release - were they :mad: :mad: ck.

[JamesA]

Unless the men are keeping very quiet re their payments, the only money being spoken of is a six figure sum to the woman in the group. Surely, this is sex discrimination and the men have a case against the Sun. This would not be 'talking to the press' and therefore could be allowed.
Is this the way Uncle sees how to fund the forces - get taken hostage, sell story, collect cash.

Seriously, I think it would have been better had the papers give these sums of money to the services benevolent funds, and given the hostages a token amount for talking to reporters.

[OKOC]

I cringed with embaressment watching Trev last night trying to pull every ounce of the details of her "Torture" out of the poor girl; particularly harrowing was the tear-jerking moment when she said she "had been bitten by an INSECT!!" whilst incarcerated. What the f*ck have the Armed Forces come to; sorry I meant Navy there.:ouch: Ducking already

No conduct after capture training is clearly the case here.

[gravity victim]

Slightly off thread, but I have just had a brilliant idea which might save the RN a load of hassle and grief in future.

The mission (I believe) is to prevent smuggling of weapons, terrorists, cheap cars etc into Iraq.

So - Instead of boarding incoming merchant ships at sea with all the palaver of whizzing around in rubber boats (and occasionally losing them and their crews to the Iranians,) why not wait until the ships arrive, and check them as soon as docked alongside? Nice solid quay, army can help,no doubt about which country you are in, seems like a winner. Not too many ports to cover in S. Iraq, I believe. :rolleyes:

[blogger]

My medals are going on E-bay the day I get out. (days to do very few now.)

These folks selling their tales need booting out. Laughing stock of the world.

'I can not answer that question' will now be 'Tell all then tell the press.'

[teeteringhead]

For thousands of years soldiers and sailors (and for nearly 100 years airmen too) have been prepared to give up their lives for the sake of their colleagues and/or their Services....

......... now they won't give up a few grand.........:(

[Jackonicko]

Easy to take a pop at someone who had the courage to put his name to what he wrote, isn't it, tabby, especially when you're hiding behind a nice anonymous PPRuNe user name?

And even if the speculation is correct that Messrs Peters and Nicholl came to grief after a 'switch pigs' then I wouldn't want to make cheap accusations about them unless I had been in the situation where I had to do the same thing, under the same circumstances.

And after the recent incident, what the RAF blokes in Iraqi hands in '91 looks even more worthy of our sympathy and understanding, I'd have thought.

As to arrogant, I don't claim to know the bloke, but I have spoken to him a few times, and when I did so he seemed like a decent enough cove to me.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Jacko

No speculation about switch pigs - John Nichol came on these very boards many moons ago (before I opened this account) and said so in very plain language.

Seemed not the least bit arrogant - at least, his digimical persona was not.

[Tourist]

Jacko.
It doesn't seem to you a bit strange that Nichol's entire fame is based upon the fact that during the one operational mission of his career he had finger trouble (forgivable, who hasn't), and then compounded the error by going back to the target for another try, thus comitting the cardinal aviation sin and wasting a very expensive aircraft.

The fact that he is brought forward as an military expert by the media beggars belief.

Sky might as well employ the 15 man boarding team as Sky's new conduct after capture experts:yuk:

Actually, it wouldn't surprise me..............

[An Teallach]

Tablet - Personal attacks are a tad off, especially when the target hasn't done anyone any harm. As far as I'm aware there's only one star of this forum who warrants the arrogant label, famously applied by Paxo himself. JN's always come across as a decent chap in any exchanges with me.

That said, you prompted me to visit the Sun website. I sincerely hope they are now just playing their Faye Goody / Jade Turney acquisition for laughs: Their top discussion is "Hostage Faye: should she get Victoria Cross?"

[Pontius Navigator]

Jacko, PM please.

[tablet_eraser]

Since people are offended on JN's behalf I've removed the post. Apologies to all.

Easy to take a pop at someone who had the courage to put his name to what he wrote, isn't it, tabby, especially when you're hiding behind a nice anonymous PPRuNe user name?

And yet we can criticise our retired generals, politicians and others who make public their opinions? I'm sorry, but I don't think this argument holds water.

[Jackonicko]

I wasn't saying for one moment that JN was a paragon of the Nav's art, merely expressing discomfort at the way in which he was being derided, and expressing disagreement with the accusations of arrogance.

As to his qualifications (or otherwise) for being a 'defence expert', better a former junior aircrew officer who flew two frontline tours (in two different roles) who went to war, and even experienced being a PoW than some fascist d1ckhead like Max Hastings or some self aggrandising donkey like Lewis Page, I'da thunk.

And much better than Clarkson, or Charlie and her Dimmocks.

[nigegilb]

You are a funny one Jacko, you get all upset about someone being called arrogant etc then you refer to Sir Max as a fascist d1ckhead. I am still trying to work that one out. Would he be more acceptable to you if he voted Labour?

They are both very pro-military, and that ain't a bad thing in these very difficult days.

Maybe you should reconsider your own comments. Esp as you hide behind an acronym

[Klingon]

Well! I guess thats the end of the discussion regarding our noble 15!:zzz:

[ChristopherRobin]

What makes me laugh is that everyone assumes that this lot had any conduct after capture training anyway?

Do SACs on the ground in Qatar get any? I bet they don't, and I bet the average jack doesn't either.

What did we have here? junior officers, slack handful of Royal, and odds and sods off the ship - that's not a boarding party, that is a jolly ladies and gentlemen, a jolly which turned out sour and the Andrew doesn't want to uncover the unpalatable truth that they sent out a bunch of kids - untooled up - to do a RM Platoon's job.

And as for Miss Cooked Breakfast 2007, if I was an Iranian thinking of rape, I might have taken some convincing that she was the likely candidate out of the entire party.

[samuraimatt]

I might have taken some convincing that she was the likely candidate out of the entire party.

Does that mean you fancied one of the others?

[ZH875]

I think fancying ANY of the other 14 is preferable.:sad:

[ChristopherRobin]

you have seen her picture, haven't you Matt?

[samuraimatt]

OMG (Sorry Tourist I meant "Oh my god") they are all coming out tonight. ZH have you been harbouring these feelings for long?

[tablet_eraser]

I think fancying ANY of the other 14 is preferable

Me too, as it happens!

[ProfessionalStudent]

Shouldn't this now be moved to Rum Ration as it's all gone "Navy" round here...

[An Teallach]

At the risk of sending Klingon into an apoplectic fit of late middle-aged angst; I was rather surprised to click on a link in a Telegraph piece (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/foreign/tobyharnden/april07/humiliation.htm) referenced by ORAC in an earlier post. I clicked on the link in the phrase "I've been poring over the faces (http://p085.ezboard.com/fsurvivorsucksfrm5.showMessageRange?topicID=75460.topic&start=141&stop=159)."

Are standards in the Telegraph slipping? The page at the link is entitled "Not a single one of these is f*ckable." It would appear that even the house journal of the Passed-over Majors set is going to the dogs.

[tablet_eraser]

Page 5:

Easy to take a pop at someone who had the courage to put his name to what he wrote, isn't it, tabby, especially when you're hiding behind a nice anonymous PPRuNe user name?

Page 6:

or some self aggrandising donkey like Lewis Page, I'da thunk.

Just seeking clarification...

[MReyn24050]

Christopher Robin wrote:- And as for Miss Cooked Breakfast 2007, if I was an Iranian thinking of rape, I might have taken some convincing that she was the likely candidate out of the entire party.
Faye Turney told The Sun how she was: STRIPPED to her knickers.
I guess her captors thought "Please stop, No more and slammed the cell door shut"
Sorry too much red vino.

[An Teallach]

Is there a school down in Englandshire turning out these Faye Goodie / Jade Turney meeja creatures? The parallels are surely too close to be coincidence?

[ORAC]

Financial Times: Iran debacle shows failure to understand the British services

Flogging stories of victimhood has no place in the armed forces. By initially allowing the 15 sailors and marines held captive by Iran to accept payments from the media for recounting their ordeal, the Navy and the Ministry of Defence have set a dangerous precedent. This failure to grasp the real values of service in the military goes right to the top of the MoD. The reversal of the decision does not undo the damage. In Tony Blair’s Britain, it seems every newsworthy experience must be shared – and does command a price.......

On every level, the initial government decision was disastrous. It succeeded only in keeping the spotlight on a humiliating episode in which members of the armed forces, no doubt acting under orders, were captured without firing a shot in anger and later paraded on Iranian television as meek and obedient prisoners. While the servicemen and one woman were understandably traumatised by their treatment, they nevertheless will not go down in history as heroes. To celebrate their brief spell in captivity is to devalue the many real acts of bravery that the British armed forces routinely commit in action. Imagine, for a moment, Lord Nelson being asked to describe how he felt about the loss of his right arm.

Mr Browne and the MoD have fallen into the trap – too commonplace today – of confusing victims with heroes. This strikes at the heart of the culture and morale of the armed forces. The services are founded on pride, teamwork and camaraderie. Tales of single-handed heroism can intensify these bonds: individual accounts of humiliation merely serve to weaken them.

There is now a barrier between those who have profited from speaking about their experience and their colleagues. To military personnel serving in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere – and to their families – it sends the message that society puts a higher value on describing two weeks’ detention than it does on defending the realm.

Britain has one of the few military services able to project force around the world. The government has over-stretched the armed services, but they remain a force to be reckoned with. Now the MoD has made them a laughing stock.

It is a grave error that will not readily be forgiven or quickly put right.

[Pontius Navigator]

I have not seen any mention of what was actually in the goody bags the Iranians gave out.

If they were of value then they should have been declared for customs duty and also handed over the the men from the Ministry. If they wanted to keep the contents they should then pay the fair market value.

Then if a particular memento was a desk ornament or similar it should be checked for explosive substances, drugs, or even bugs.

Any ideas chaps?

Little model of the Sharyad perhaps? Shake it and watch the snow fall.

http://report-en.aruna.ir/pic/azadi01.jpg

[threepointonefour]

Let's hope they got one of those 'wailing' Mosque alarm clocks. Quality.

[luoto]

Pontius Navigator: I believe they cited the Cherie Blair precedent and thus are immune from mere formalities like customs clearance.

[tablet_eraser]

PN,

Apparently they contained books on Islam and Iran, pistachio nuts and CDs/DVDs, as well as fake Hugo Boss shirts.

And Faye Turney got an Islamic doll. All were checked for explosives... damned sneaky, those Iranians...

[WPH]

According to the Daily Mail Faye Turney actually received 2 Islamic dolls....


http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_01/fayeturnDm1004_468x467.jpg

Just when you thought that it couldn't get any worse!:O

[insty66]

Apparently Des "Swiss Tony" Brown is explaining all on Jeremy Vine's Radio broadcast today.

I look forward to lots of doublespeak ,spin, half truths and lies:yuk:

[Pontius Navigator]

I bet one of the books was not Salman Rusdie's.

Wonder whether faye stuffed the dolls in her jumper.

Anyone read a woman's take on all this? Look at Jan Moir in today's Telegraph. One word sums it up. Diddums.

[The Burning Bush]

ORAC

It is a grave error that will not readily be forgiven or quickly put right.

D@mm right:mad:

[tablet_eraser]

In today's Sun, below another cringeworthy article, there was the following competition:

Win an Ahmadine-jacket

One of the captives has given his jacket to the Sun so that it can make a profit out of the incident.

I am f:mad: cking speechless. And feeling a bit sick.

[Pontius Navigator]

tablet_eraser, I was going to say, nothing on eBay yet. :(

[Spotting Bad Guys]

I see Des didn't actually turn up to speak to Jeremy Vine then.....

SBG

[Pontius Navigator]

Here is one from RumRation - http://www.rumration.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5666#96192

[Letsby Avenue]

Can we start a petition on the No10 website to return the frightened 15 to Iran?

[An Teallach]

A tad OTT, Lestby. Especially on the ones who haven't bared all to the Scum / Mirror. ;)

I see Ditchwater Des has accepted full responsibility for the media fiasco, so that's OK then. I had wondered if 2SL was being set up as the fall guy by the Ops side who are actually at fault. As predicted, the meeja is full of tripe and no-one is asking the important questions. I wonder when MoD will just buy a record of 'Lessons will be learned' to save them saying it all the time.

[Melchett01]

This is just gobsmacking. Apparently there are now calls for the 'Tehran 15' to be given medals for bravery.

http://www.thisisexeter.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=137199&command=displayContent&sourceNode=136986&contentPK=17064482&folderPk=79934&pNodeId=137002

So surrendering without putting up a fight and publically admitting that you cried yourself to sleep is considered brave in Exeter is it? Forgive me for seeming to be a little critical here, but storming a Taleban machinegun nest singlehandedly would be brave.

I am just in the middle of reading Vulcan 607 and there is a bit where the Lt and his small party were charged with holding off the Argies from landing on South Georgia and he is told to put up a token show of force - "half an hour should do it then surrender". After half an hour or so he and his team surrender. Having brought down a Puma, sunk an landing craft, put a hole in the side of an Argentinian Type 42 destroyer with what sounds like a recoilless rifle and peppered the side of it with several thousand rounds of small arms. Now that was something that deserved a medal that the Navy can be proud of! There are times when I think this once great country has gone totally barking, and this is one of them.

[In Tor Wot]

Melchett I'm with you. I've just read this article - pathetic.

For the benefit of all the journos out there the definition of 'hero' is:

somebody who commits an act of remarkable bravery or who has shown great courage, strength of character, or another admirable quality

The frightened 15 do not fit this definition - stop calling them that - it demeans those that really are.

If you're looking for 'heroic' (and stoic) servicemen go to Iraq or Afghanistan where they really do wake up every day wondering if they'll see the sunset.

[Tigs2]

Melchett, In Tor

Could not agree more. I have just written to the editor of the newspaper (i have quoted some of your text In Tor:ok:).

I was also wondering why Mum has so many opinions on how much Son has suffered, yet admits upto the 12th April, she still has not spoken to him since his arrival back home. Sounds like the poor sod being claimed by her to be a hero, didnt even deserve a heros home coming. All very sad.

[luoto]

Maybe servicemen who are equally annoyed should start to use the frightened fifteen tag. Rather effective name.

Mind you, maybe some of the 15 might be tarred with the black brush unduly ? Reading coverage in Finland it seems to revolve around "Mr Bean" and the Fat Jenny, so could some be getting a bad rep by association?

[Tigs2]

Tony Blair said on camera during a visit to Wales yesterday

"Look, I did not actually know about the decision until after it was taken, but really that is not the point," he said. "The Navy was trying to deal with a wholly exceptional situation where the families were being pursued by the media to sell their stories.

"The Navy took the view that it was better to manage the situation than let it happen. Now, with hindsight, was that a good idea? No. But precisely because people would then misrepresent that as somehow the Navy encouraging people to sell their stories which they were not at all.



Was it the Senior staff in the Navy that made this decision?? I cannot believe that it was. Surely they (the commanders) must have known the effect this would have had. Is this Bliar and Browne nose trying to pass the buck yet again?

[Letsby Avenue]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=448047&in_page_id=1770

[The Swinging Monkey]

Well I can see the claims for compensation being dreamed up now as we speak. This idiot Mr Bean bloke will be up for at least a 6 figure sum, together with a film contract to replace Rowan Atkinson. Ms Turney will be there at the forefront, suffering from stress and other stress-related illness, and will need a fair amount of compensation for her and her sprog. Oh God, what a bl00dy mess this all is.

How on earth has this country fallen to such a depth?

On a day when we receive back into Lyneham the bodies of four REAL British heros, might I ask that we all spare just a few minutes in thought for them and their family and friends, as well as those they left behind in Iraq.

I only hope that all this appalling mess isn't having too much impact on those Boys and Girls who are being heros every day. God Bless them all.

TSM

[Pontius Navigator]

TSM,

together with a film contract to replace Rowan Atkinson. Ms Turney will be there at the forefront, suffering from stress and other stress-related illness, and will need a fair amount of compensation for her and her sprog

Ah, Rowan Atkinson, I wondered who this Bean chap was.

May I also suggest James Leite as a figure of fun, disagreeing with everyone, as a Baldrick replacement?

[vee-tail-1]

Faye and her colleages should receive medals for showing exceptional common sense. They correctly assesed their situation and did not fire their weapons, thus saving their own and many Iranians lives. In so doing they exposed the obscene bu...sht of "doing your duty" "dying for your country" and all the other forms of military conditioning which are now failing to imprint on more sceptical young minds.
The roars of appoplexy coming from the dinosaurs on this thread are predictable. Real heros in our modern age are those who keep their consiences intact and refuse to kill in aggressive & illegal wars.
Thanks Two's in for summing it up so well.:*

[timex]

Faye and her colleages should receive medals for showing exceptional common sense. They correctly assesed their situation and did not fire their weapons, thus saving their own and many Iranians lives. In so doing they exposed the obscene bu...sht of "doing your duty" "dying for your country" and all the other forms of military conditioning which are now failing to imprint on more sceptical young minds.
The roars of appoplexy coming from the dinosaurs on this thread are predictable. Real heros in our modern age are those who keep their consiences intact and refuse to kill in aggressive & illegal wars.
Thanks Two's in for summing it up so well.

OK, simply go back to the start of the thread and re-read it, no one has said they should have died "doing their duty". Its the conduct after capture that irks.

Guess you're not seriously Military then........

[WPH]

Can't quite agree with your post v-t-1 but I do have a lot of sympathy for AB and FT. The RN claimed that they let them sell their stories in this manner so that they could do so with full support from the RN in media handling. If this is so then why have these young impressionable sailors been allowed to make a laughing stock of themselves and the RN? I think that it is a sad reflection of where we are today when it appears that nobody in their command chain has offered the support, protection and advice that young Junior Ranks in our military deserve. IMHO, the RN have handled this very poorly. It all started when they apparantly failed to adequately support their personnel to prevent them being taken hostage in the first place and has ended with poor support and advice on their return to the UK.

[Pontius Navigator]

AB, it is reported, feels he was hung out to dry. He thought that they were all cleared to give their stories, probably at the 'home-town' level and he said he got but a fraction of FTs dosh.

These are not highly trained media personnel and on the whole, IMHO, the Iranians seemed to handle them not that far removed from the way the Germans treated British POWs or our own prisonner handling techniques.

Hooding and handcuffing can be argued as 'ensuring prisonner safety' as the prisoner will not do anything stupid such as hitting a guard or trying to escape.

Their problem and the problem for the media, is how to 'sell' a not wholly remarkable tale in a dramatic manner. They failed.

Of course in the manner of the media, all the papers that did not get the story publish and embellish every scrap of information such as on RR or here.

[An Teallach]

I have very little complaint about how they handled themselves in Iran. We were told that the whole 'big brother' meeja fest was set up to allow the MoD some control. All I can say is, if this is what Mr Bean and Faye Goodie are coming out with and they are being assisted by MoD press minders, I dread to think what would be coming out if they weren't being advised by 'professional' MoD minders. It's been said elsewhere, the entire RN press dept should get their P45s pronto.

One day we might actually find out where the 3 (US) vessels in the task group with a shallow enough draught to escort our rubber dinghies were. Or, indeed, why we didn't just search ships after they tied up at Basra instead of having the RN fart about close to Iranian waters after the IRGC had announced they were after Western hostages in retaliation for their chaps taken by the US in Iraq. But hey, that is why the NuLabour MoD gyroscopic physicians hung these youngsters out to the press, to divert attention from the real questions.

[nigegilb]

I did 24 hrs prisoner handling on CAC course and it was the worst 24 hrs I have endured. The likes of AB could well be in a poor state after all this. He should not have been shoved in front of the press pack hours after getting home. He obviously had a tough time in captivity. So much for the RN looking after their own. I feel sorry for the lad, he has been by HMG in much the same way ADJ used him.

[South Bound]

Once we all get over our views on the particular individuals, there will just be a sour taste about how the RN has looked after its people since they got back.

It doesn't help that the 2 individuals first in the papers were the 2 least credible people one could hope to have tell their tales...

[3 bladed beast]

Personally, I'm looking forward to going back to reading all about the Beckhams and random other celebrity stories.

Famous people really deserve the extra money they receive for their stories.

[The Swinging Monkey]

vee-tail-1

"The roars of appoplexy coming from the dinosaurs on this thread are predictable. Real heros in our modern age are those who keep their consiences intact and refuse to kill in aggressive & illegal wars"

'Real heros' are you barking mad? Does selling your story make you a real hero? Your comments are an insult to those 'real heros' who have made the ultimate sacrifice and are offensive to say the least. If you have ever been in a war zone then you will be aware of what is expected from you in such events. These people failed miserably to do that, and whilst I understand that doing anything to save your neck might make good sence (and I don't have a problem with that) what you fail to understand is that this thread is about them selling their stories!

It has nothing at all to do with keeping your consience intact or any of the other rubbish you are spouting. If they felt that bad, then they shouldn't have been there in the first place!

[timex]

Not wanting to wander too far away from the theme of this thread but....does this not show why some sort of Op trg package is a good Idea for all Mil personnell?

A couple of times we have seen people moaning about having to be capable of defending themselves and others in various theatres

[vee-tail-1]

Roar away! helps to prove my point. Yes I was in a number of war zones and had to leave the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft.:*

[The Swinging Monkey]

vee-tail-1

Pretty much says it all really! Maybe you could enlighten us as to what wars you partook in then? Not that I'm interested you understand, its just to let you have a (very) brief moment of glory.

TSM

[threeputt]

I started reading a library book about the time that this all kicked off. It is entitled "Lie in the dark and listen" and is a story about the wartime exploits of a Wg Cdr Ken Rees. It transpires that this remarkable man was a Wellington bomber pilot who ended up in Stalagluft III and participated in the "Great Escape"and the forced march to Bremen.
Tony Bethell writes an introduction which, I think, puts this whole sordid debate nicely into context and I quote:

"Today in an age when the mere fact of being in a theatre of hostility (not hostilities) generates the media's definition of "hero" I can still only think of the Great Escape as an event in which men did their duty. That, I think, is sufficient, and if others will think of all of us, those who were murdered and those who survived, in such a manner, I believe we would all be content"

:ok: 3P

[MINself]

IMHO, good luck to those RN/RM personnel for trying to make some money out of the situation! There have been many stories in recent times of similar encounters in wars told by those who have fought in them and many of these have been by senior officers some of these books have even been less interesting and more transparent an attempt at self gratification and most of these books didn't attract a priministerial response. Also the public has an interest in what these servicemen and woman have gone through, although the timing of the interviews was possibly a bit too soon after the event, but never the less I say good luck to those of them who have made something out of this episode before the MOD made their U-turn. As its been shown time and time again that the MOD doesn't always look after the individuals best interests and I don't believe that this is a slur against those poor souls or their families that have tragically died in this or any other conflict.
MS

[OKOC]

V tail "had to leave the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft". What the bloody hell are you on about? The RAF threatened to destroy your aircraft: how, when, where? Why don't you spill the beans and sell your story --it sounds far more interesting than the drivel coming from you (and your friend Faye so far).

[sharmine]

OKOC

It might be me but I read it differently to you. Is he not saying "he had to leave the RAF because he threatend to distroy his aircraft":bored:

In which case he should be locked up?:=

Sharmine

[GPMG]

"had to leave the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft"

What? Were you a Nazi spy or something? Or did you take the 'suicide mission' statement (from a couple of weeks back) too far?

Biggles chainsaws his spitfire.

Mind you I prefer the idea that the RAF had threatened to destroy his aircraft, perhaps he was a Ruskie Bear pilot that strayed a bit to close to our airspace.

[tablet_eraser]

Biggles chainsaws his spitfire.

That's one I'd love to read!

"What in blazes-!", exclaimed the Wingco, as the throaty roar of a two-stroke chainsaw at Dispersal startled his batman...

[Roland Pulfrew]

had to leave the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft.

And proof, if proof were needed, of the importance of correct punctuation.:ugh:

Had it been:

had to leave, the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft.

We could be worried about why the RAF had threatened to destroy his aircraft.

But if it had been:

had to leave the RAF, having threatened to destroy my aircraft.

Then I would agree he should be locked up. :E :E

Back to topic though, these personnel were not heroes and no amount of roaring from VT1 will change that. Now for heroes we only need to look at the repatriation service from Basra last night. Incidentally what wasn't mentioned on the news (certainly not the BBC) was the fact that the parade was mortared just as they were dismissed.

[Ken Scott]

Does anyone out there really believe that the RN decided to go to the tabloids to put their side of the story, while the Government were informed but kept out of the decision loop? Is there any precedent for such an action from a branch of the military? Can a government that has been obsessive in its relationship with and manipulation of the media during its 10 years in office really not have had any involvement in this process?

Clearly the Second Sea Lord has either volunteered to take the rap, or been ordered to - if he gets promoted & knighted in the next year that will answer that question.

There can be no doubt that going to the press was a high level political decision, as well as a response to the media frenzy which was offering big cheques for the stories. Sadly the whole series of events, from their avoidable detention through to the current situation, has brought shame and humiliation to the individuals, the RN and the wider armed forces, the UK as a whole and last but not least, the Government.

The 15 were right not to fight when they were taken by the Iranians, that would have resulted in many deaths and possibly a wider military conflict, but they should not have been in such an exposed position. Their conduct as prisoners, whilst not admirable, is pretty much in line with current CAC training. The UK government was a toothless Lion during the diplomatic process, but then Iran held all the cards. The UN Security Council's failure to robustly support the UK, which was carrying out a UN sponsored mission, was also lamentable. Iran achieved a propaganda coup with its benevolent and merciful release of illegally held hostages. Finally, the decision to allow the ex-hostages to sell their story has raised the whole affair to the highest levels of farce. The RN which once ruled the waves and won at Trafalgar is now a laughing stock throughout the world. In the year that we commemorate the re-capture of the Falkland Islands, we witness these events. I am saddened to the core by all this.

Nelson must be doing about 2000 rpm in his grave.

[GeeRam]

The RN which once ruled the waves and won at Trafalgar is now a laughing stock throughout the world. In the year that we commemorate the re-capture of the Falkland Islands, we witness these events. I am saddened to the core by all this.

Nelson must be doing about 2000 rpm in his grave.

Don't have to go that far back........RN ruling the waves is still just in living memory almost.
An uncle now in his late 80's and a very proud ex-Jack who joined up just pre-WW2 and did 20+ years, served most of WW2 as an Oerlikon gunner in the RN Dog Boat fleet in the Med and later on did 2 x Royal Tournament's in the Field Gun Comp.
A proud old man's reaction to the events of the past few weeks are unprintable......

[An Teallach]

Tell Him Pike … No, on second thoughts, ... Don’t Tell Him Pike!

http://heady.co.uk/rm/desarmy.jpg

More at his site (http://www.bbdo.co.uk/blog/).

[BluntedAtBirth]

Roar away! helps to prove my point. Yes I was in a number of war zones and had to leave the RAF having threatened to destroy my aircraft.:*


That is nothing, mate. Before I was specially selected to stop FC training I threatened to destroy 2 or more RAF aircraft, and a considerable portion of the civair traffic in the UKADR, on almost every sortie.

[Chukkablade]

Guys, sorry to stray onto your forum; I’ve had rather a few beers with the lads tonight, so forgive me.


Sad beyond belief that it’s came to this. Sad beyond belief that the Government of this country couldn’t even get this latest balls up right. Sad that a bunch of bloody untrained ratings and the token split were out there doing a job that’s best left to the Marines. Sad that it was being done without any sort of top cover, or even a proper boat, to get the job done. It really has came to this it seems.


Sad that dead troops coming home now warrant not a second of news coverage, but this oggie stand regular is now set for life.

These 15 apologetic embarrassments are not heroes. My Grandfather, shot down twice, was a hero. My other grandfather, who marched all over Africa and caught a bullet for it, was a hero. The old bloke who lived close to me when I was a kid who was forced to build a railroad for the bloody Japs, was a hero.

This lot? Gimme peace. Disgusting.

Somebody better put a reduction gearbox on the end of Nelson’s Column. The old boy must be at 40,000 RPM by now.

So glad I’m out. And so sad. :(

[GPMG]

I understand your feelings Chukka, why isnt this role left to Bootnecks. It is one of our job roles after all, or it used to be.

Have read on another forum that the Marines were up for revving up the Iranians and starting a firefight. Has anyone else seen this as fact or is it BS?

On another note does the UK have anything that would be capable of giving hefty firepower close in on missions like this?

A Rigid Raider MK2 wouldnt cut it as it has nothing heavier than a Marine + GPMG lying down on the bow?
The US Marines took us out in some very powerfull and armed to the teeth jet boats that could turn on a sixpence, they would be perfect for ship searching. Shame we can't buy a small fleet.

[vee-tail-1]

Hmm...most of you guys are just as conditioned in your thoughts, just as certain of the importance of doing your duty, as I was when I joined the RAF. I was a young man in love with aeroplanes, but one day I grew up, and realised that the organisation that had trained me and fed me and to which I had given my loyalty, was in fact a killing machine. The selectors at Biggin Hill were looking for people with an aptitude to fly, and enough initiative to carry out a mission successfully, not not bright enough to figure out the big picture for thermselves. Seems as if not much has changed! I was lucky and joined the airlines, visiting many battlefields, including the Falklands, during the next 25 years. In each case I found the official history of a conflict was at odds with what actually happened, particularly with regard to the Falklands. One day YOU may find out the true nature of war. It is NEVER heroic; it is just pepole killing people, combatants, non-combatants, women, children, alike. The politicians lie about the reasons for war, the generals lie about the conduct of the war. The winners turn lying into an art form, by re-writing the history of the war, and executing or imprisoning the losers, so that truth itself becomes a victim. In an unexpected and curious way, the RN 15 have shown the truth of my assertions, and de-bunked the whole "War Heroes doing their Duty" myth.

[South Bound]

VT1, there is some sense in what you say, but the way you put it is absolute tosh.

Unfortunately, this world needs 'killing machines' without them defending the defenceless your privileged lifestyle would be very much at risk. Until this world learns to live in peace, soldiers, sailors and airmen will be required to get involved, put their lives on the line and occasionally kill people in the execution of their duty.

We are a long away from that utopia. While we all question certain political motives, the general principle remains - that the civilised world has an obligation to get involved and protect the innocent from the oppressors. That it is failing to do so so spectacularly is a tragedy - the nations of the World should be ashamed at what has happened, most notably in Rwanda, while we all stood by toothless and unable to act. This has not changed, there is institutional murder and terror still widespread and we cannot yet address it all, but address it we eventually must. And to do that, we will still need young men and women to do the job.

We do not need lectures on the true nature of war, indeed, there is nothing heroic about the act of war. But acts of heroism occur during the heat of battle, and these should rightly be applauded and recognised.

The Iran 15 have done nothing to back up your point - they have demonstrated little heroism as far as I am concerned, but they came out of an unpleasant situation all in one piece (well, missing a couple of boats, small arms, some CS95 and an iPod...). It is my opinion that they (particularly those in command within the group) are to be congratulated for getting out of that situation, but nothing more.

Perhaps what it demonstrates most clearly is how toothless the UK military really is in certain situations, rather than some farsical idea that heroism is a myth as you suggest. It exists every day, in every conflict, but should not automatically be associated with every military activity.

[snapper41]

I caught the Jeremy Vine phone-in on the car radio yesterday; subject (once again) was the Iran 15. A serving RN petty officer called in to say that he had no problems with them selling their stories, and that that view was prevalent amongst RN personnel where he worked; another RN NCO texted in with much the same view. I'm intruiged now; given all the comments on this thread, and on RUM RATION and ARRSE, what is the real Jack view of his comrades?

[Heliport]

Copied from the Neville Duke thread -


airborne artist writes
from the Telegraph obituary:

"The AOC instructed that Duke was to finish his third tour after completing 486 operational sorties. He had destroyed 27 enemy aircraft, and probably three more, making him the RAF's outstanding and highest-scoring fighter pilot in the Mediterranean theatre. He was 22 years old and at the end of October he returned to England after an absence of three years.

Tell that to the Tehran 15.




And, in contrast to the sleazy 'cash for Sun exclusive', this from December 2005: Fighter ace sells medals
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/12/08/nduke08.xml)


H.

[Roland Pulfrew]

Ah Now VT1 shows his true colours. A pacifist. Well VT1 you have a right to your views and would defend your right to espouse them, even if I think they are utter, utter b:mad:ks.
Of course their is heroism in combat, it is not just about killing the enemy, but of course that probably helps.

If youwant an example of heroism my I suggest you try this:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=ITGSAC2TNIZDPQFIQMGCFFWAVCBQUIV0?view= DETAILS&grid=&xml=/news/2007/04/13/db1302.xml (Link to the obituary mentioned in Heliport's post).

Oh and you still haven't explained why you were trying to destroy an RAF aircraft?
Pencils, underpants, bibble perhaps?!?!?!?

[Wyler]

I find this whole situation extremely depressing.

The real question to be asked is why were they captured so easily? As to their conduct whilst in Iran, well I was not there so I don't know the circumstances. I was, however, slightly surprised to see the play fighting at the 'coffee morning', that did not seem staged to me.

As to what has happened when they got back. Politics, pure politics. Liar Blair was humiliated by Iran in every which way. He desperately needed to redress the balance and, as we all know, this Government conducts it's business through soundbites and tabloid journalsm. It's all about tomorrows headline. So, what better way to redress the balance than to 'encourage' the captives to spill the beans in a lurid fashion about how badly they had been treated. The news conference was 'handled' very well with the individuals reading out yet more prepared statements (how many times did they each say 1.7nm?). Then, let them off the leash. It turned out, however, to be an own goal and the backlash is plain to see.

Does the Government care, do they hell. Gordon can sit back and smile about the negative publicity being generated about the Forces, because he despises them. Blair is happy that attention has been diverted from the 25th Anniversary of the Falklands War in which, love her or loathe her, Maggie showed true leadership under pressure and won due to the professionalism of the Forces and the backing of the British public. More importantly today, the return home of those 4 coffins. 4 youngsters snuffed out and two young females killed in action is not good reading. So, overall, the Labour Government is losing little sleep over this.

I can appreciate the frustration shown by posters regarding the cash for story debacle but to those who see fit to carry out cruel and personal attacks on the lone female, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Do you really think that comments like that show you up in a better light with the non militay readership of this forum?

[Flying Lawyer]

Wyler Do you really think that comments like that show you up in a better light with the non military readership of this forum?
Credit us with some intelligence. If we're interested enough in mil matters to read the forum, we understand that disapproval tends to be expressed more harshly than elsewhere.

It's "the lone female" who sold her story for a reputed £100-150,000.
Non military readers are just as disgusted as military readers, and just as sceptical about her vague assurance that she'll give 'some of the money' to those more deserving. She could easily regain respect by giving it all - or salvage some respect if she said how much. (Depending upon how much.)

Most non mil people I know are saddened to see the fine reputation of the British armed services sullied in the way it has been by serving personnel selling stories, and easily understand why those who are currently serving the country, or have done in the past, are so appalled. We'd be surprised, and disappointed, if they weren't.


FL

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If Faye Turney was my daughter I'd give myself a slap.

Then I'd advise her to make as much money out of this as quickly as possible.
£150k from the papers for a few interviews and pictures? Done.

£100k for a book deal? Done.

£20k for a couple of tawdry celeb appearances over the next 2 years? Done.
Its illogical not to do so.

Being in the military is just another job these days - so it would seem. That's how senior managment, Government and the public view it. So treat it like just another job.

Lamentable yes. But reality I fear. Especially for the non-commissioned.

She can bring that child up now with a private education. Or work part time with no mortgage and be there for it. Its a life changing sum of money for someone like Faye. If it were you and the sums were larger, say half a million, then I think you'd want us to forgive you for putting your family first and selling.

If you didn't I'd think you had an odd, outdated attitiude to the current world.

WWW

[Heliport]

It seems there are still a lot of us with "an odd, outdated attitude to the current world."
.

[cornish-stormrider]

I hate to quote this but......"Being in the military is not a job, its an adventure, etc" (badly plagirised from that steven seagull movie Under Siege)

I never joined the RAF for the money. Neither did anyone else I knew. We all joined because we wanted a career (Now Missing), good mates (Still There) and an interesting job.

Botton line, in my not so humble opinion, is now they are back to shut up, say nothing and donate all recieved monies to the services charities.

as to the 100,000 or 150,000 recieved by Faye, how long do you reckon it will take for the media to recoup that. To THEM its a pittance, but is several years wages for a poor squaddie/airman/jack etc.

Bloody poor show all round

[vee-tail-1]

Oh dear yet more roaring. No one disputes the sacrifices made by our fathers & grandfathers during WWII but today the situation is different. As I suggested what is important is the big picture... global warming, overpopulation, scarce resources, starvation, leading to conflict over who owns what, and in our case who controls the remaining oil reserves. Nothing particularly heroic in being part of an invasion force, killing the natives in order to keep our oil dependant economy running for a few more years.:=

[MReyn24050]

Wee Weasley Welshman wrote:- If you didn't I'd think you had an odd, outdated attitiude to the current world.
As heliport says It seems there are still a lot of us with "an odd, outdated attitude to the current world."
I find it awfully sad that there are so many in this, what was a Great Country, that no longer believe in honour, honesty, integrity and sincerity.
As we all know honour denotes a fine sense of, and a strict conformity to, what is considered morally right or due: a high sense of honour; on one's honour. Honesty denotes the presence of probity and particularly the absence of deceit or fraud, esp. in business dealings: uncompromising honesty and trustworthiness. Integrity indicates a soundness of moral principle that no power or influence can impair: a man of unquestioned integrity and dependability. Sincerity implies absence of dissimulation or deceit, and a strong adherence to truth.
It is so sad that this present government cannot live up to those principles. Today all self-discipline has been lost, all discipline in schools and the home has been lost, there is no shame left. It is quickly becoming a case of grab what you can to hell with others. I just wish the top brass would stand up to Whitehall and say enough is enough HM Forces should not be submitted to civilian rules and jurisdiction.

[Wyler]

You miss my point. I too am disgusted at the way she has sold her story and over egged it to make an insect bite sound like some kind of agony and torture. What I do not like is when some of the posters make personal attacks about her physical appearance.

'If I was an Iranian doubt I would think of raping her' or words to that effect. That stinks, is incredibly offensive and anyone who thinks that that is an acceptible comment to make about anybody is not worthy of being credited with any intelligence whatsoever.

[Mal Drop]

Wyler, those of us blessed with sufficient intelligence to know the difference between a throwaway "humorous" quip and a heartfelt comment are more numerous than you might think.

[NRU74]

Wyler
You are probably right ...but I confess that I did find the term 'salad dodger' [used earlier on this thread] highly amusing.

[SRENNAPS]

Mal Drop:
Please could you explain to me what the difference is between a throwaway "humorous" quip and a heartfelt comment, when it is a direct personal insult to somebody?

Are only politically correct subjects (such as Guy Gibson’s dog’s name) “heartfelt comments”. Humorous quips on the other hand can be used can be used against anything “Not PC”; such as fat, ugly, salad dodger etc, etc.

So if you “are” blessed with sufficient intelligence please tell me what the difference between a direct insult and a pi$$ take is and why it applies to some but not others.

I have been appalled by some of the insults that I have seen on this thread (some of which seem to have disappeared – you know who you are). And quite honestly I do wonder how those who have made such insults would behave if they found themselves in the “the Famous 15’s) position.


Honesty, Integrity, Honour, Military Pride – some of you make me laugh.

[Winco]

SRENAPPS,
I don't wish to get into your questioning of insults etc. however you must understand that feelings are running particularly high over the recent events.

These 15 sailors did NOT do as they were supposed to, post capture. Their conduct was little short of pathetic in my opinion. But should they have spoken whilst they were in Iran? Well very possibly Yes, especially if it stopped a beating for them or something worse.

But should they have blatantly sold their story when they were returned? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
It was, without question, a most deplorable thing to do, and they and the RN in general should be thoroughly ashamed. I cannot think of anything so disgraceful, especially so when we remember the other events of last week, and the repatriation of 4 real heros yesterday.

So do try to appreciate that many members of our Forces feel extremely strongly about what these 15 did (and didn't) do, and it is perfectly understandable that many servicemen and women are going to use language that might not always be PC, but frankly, I think they are perfectly entitled to their 'strong' and valid opinions.

The Winco

[Brewster Buffalo]

Winco ......But should they have blatantly sold their story when they were returned?

I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that the Navy/Govt wanted their tales of capture in the papers and seemed to have assisted in the whole process. You could say the hostages were obeying "orders" in doing so

[Roland Pulfrew]

Oh dear yet more roaring. No one disputes the sacrifices made by our fathers & grandfathers during WWII but today the situation is different. As I suggested what is important is the big picture... global warming, overpopulation, scarce resources, starvation, leading to conflict over who owns what, and in our case who controls the remaining oil reserves. Nothing particularly heroic in being part of an invasion force, killing the natives in order to keep our oil dependant economy running for a few more years.
Oh dear yet more babble whilst not answering any questions. If you want heroic whilst "being part of an invasion force" I suggest you reads the citations for Private J Beharry's VC or Cpl Bryan Budd's VC. Or perhaps even here: http://http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=271840


Oh God I fed the Troll!!!:ugh: I'm sorry.

[SRENNAPS]

Winco and all:
I do agree with you in certain respects. However, think a bit more deeply. The ones that gave their stories were young kids. What do you expect??


After the charade in Iran it was obvious what would happen when they got home. (Having said that most people here on prune could not see it).


They are being held responsible by members of this forum for a total cock up by PR within the armed forces and the MOD. I say again – how many people on the site would have acted any differently when offered that kind of money.


My bottom line is that it has happened and it will happen again. We are all pawns in the game of life. Politicians laugh all the way to the bank when they see this kind of stuff on Prune – it keeps the heat of them.


I think it is very sad that certain members of this forum compare them with those that have died. Are you trying to tell me that these 15 would not have performed some courageous act if required in different circumstances, and not one of those who have died, would not have sold their story – given the chance? (I hated writing that).

Or is it pure coincidence that we had 15 fat, lazy, salad dodging personnel that knew if they were caught by the Iranians they would come home to a life of stardom.


“SORRY”, but all I see here are lemmings led by hungry wolves.

[Lomon]

I think Srennaps is right, these guys would not have sold their stories if not encouraged by "The Brass."

They have been used by Downing St, MoD, and the Admiralty as a propaganda machine, and when the tide of opinion has turned against the powers that be, they have denied all knowledge.

We all know that talking to the press without first consulting the Press Liaison Officer is a no no. They might be young and naive, but they aren't so stupid as to sell their stories without getting permission from the higher ups, and a story of this magnitude would involve some very higher ups. If they were that stupid then I would expect to hear of charges and possibly courts martial being convened, but that won't happen because then the defence would bring in proof that permission came from the highest level of government.

The problem is, this is a general election year. The opposition have latched onto this breach of military protocol and are trying to persecute the current government for allowing it. So in response the powers that be are sloping shoulders and trying to drop their subordinates in it.

We all know people who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, and if those people where here now, I am sure they would not hold it against the 2 who got their stories out before the others were clamped down upon.

And for those among you who are complaining about their conduct let m e say this, it might not be nice but it is true, the enemy is no longer a gentleman, prisoners of war in the middle east are not treated in accordance with the Geneva convention. I am sure the 'bad guys' would have no qualms about using torture and rape as methods of interrogation. In those circumstances would you behave differently? RAF pilots in gulf war 1 didn't hold out forever, they went on TV and said what they were told to say.

So, a leading rate has earned more in 1 interview with Trevor McDoughnut than an Admiral earns in a year. And that, I think is the real source of indignation.

At the end of the day, they are home safe and unharmed. That is more important than 7 more boxes arriving at Brize Norton or Lynham.

For those of you who object, they have their own consciences to deal with, and that will stay with them far longer than your harsh words.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Some are suggesting that the MOD planned this before they got back.

See this (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=448272&in_page_id=1770).

[In Tor Wot]

Current No 10 Petition on this subject:

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to name and sack the person responsible for declaring that members of the armed services can sell their stories to the media. More details

Submitted by Mike Critchley of Warship World magazine – Deadline to sign up by: 12 June 2007 – Signatures: 3,754 (as at 14 Apr).

Those that are really responsible for this debacle are hiding behind it being an 'MOD' or 'Navy' decision. However, the individual responsible has not stepped forward. Dismal referred constantly to it being a ‘Naval decision’ that he was ‘made aware of.’ I find it hard to believe that this spin infatuated bunch of shysters would leave a decision like that to the single Services without guidance or input from ministers.

[MrFlibble]

Linky to that petition here - http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Navy-media/

[oldfella]

Initially I deplored the story telling to the media, and the content as reported, certainly did not show the military in a very good light. Having now thought about it a bit more I actually feel sorry for the hostages. They didn't simply ignore orders or sell their stories for cash, they were given permision to do so. They may have a problem holding their heads up but they were not acting against orders and were not ultimately responsible.

Would it be too much to think that those responsible will step forward? I think that those responsible will simply hide behind a wall of words and spin.

Courage isn't standing against overwhelming odds and dying to no effect, but those responsible for this debacle, the media show, should now show some courage by admitting their individual and collective responsibility. I won't be holding my breath.

[Pontius Navigator]

Lomon, from what has been said so far I surmise that the Iranian's prisoner handling was not wholly at odds with the Geneva Convention. Hooding and handcuffing can be argued as protection of the prisoners - it stops them doing anything foolish like trying to escape and getting beaten or shot in the process.

Certainly they seem to have been handled less roughly than on the SAS selection program on TV - no forced marches, starvation, stripping, degrading interogations etc.

As for 15 salad dodgers, a term my daughter agreed with but I had never heard, I don't think you could accuse all the 15 of being salad dodgers.

[jstars2]

Sorry to be so lame, but what is a "salad dodger", please?

[Tourist]

Interestingly, I have just been chatting to a bootie mate of mine just returned from Afghanistan, and he says that they are currently being told to say anything at all after capture, including admitting to eating babies etc live on telly if that stops a beating. Everybody knows its a lie, so why not?

[mutleyfour]

I have stayed out of this so far but have only the following to say:

"Thank God I wasn't one of those 15!"

[The Swinging Monkey]

There is a school of thought that says that if you are captured, then yes, say anything at all if it stops torture, beatings et al, and I have no problem with that at all. I would suggest that most of us would do the same.

The problem is that some on this forum are now suggesting that the 15 were not only forced by the Iranians to 'spout off' in front of Iranian TV, but that they were 'forced' and 'encouraged' into selling their stories to the UK press and media. This I do not believe.

If the idiots at the MOD, government or the RN top brass orchestrated this, then they too should be held to account, but no one forced Mr Bean and his colleagues to go to the press and make utter fools of themselves did they?

TSM

[Tigs2]

I think the major problem for these folks will be the PTSD induced by dealing with their respective peer groups and the comments of their comrades and the nation. I think we are giving them a much harder time than they got in Iran, and Bliar continues to slope shoulders.

'I did not have sex with that woman!"mmm! we all know how that turned out.

'I did not know that we would allow them (some of them) to sell their stories to the press and that a decision involving something so politically sensitive was taken by the Navy alone who then passed it on to Broon nose without my knowledge, honest! I mean surely you must believe what i say, i am the PM, i never tell lies' mmm, wonder how this one will turn out?

There MUST be one Admiral out there with the balls to help save the honour of the Navy, Nelson etc etc by resigning over this whole putrid fiasco. It would not mean loss of pension (a knighthood maybe, although i reckon the conservatives will give you one when they inevitibly are voted in), Japanese Admirals would commit suicide for less, they (the Government) are trashing 600 years of reputation. Somebody stand up for godsake. CDS has gone quiet!

[Wiley]

Call me paranoid, but (and I think this has been said by someone earlier on these pages) I think the whole "have 'em sell their story to the media" notion was a very clever - and incredibly cynical - (and so far, successful) attempt to drag the media and Joe Public's attention away from asking the question that's still begging to be answered: who should be held responsible for putting 'the 15' into the impossible position they were allowed to get themselves into?

While few would argue that the Captain of the Norfolk shouldn't find himself on the wrong end of some uncomfortable questions at a Court of Inquiry, I for one feel that the real culprits wear some far wider gold stripes on their sleeves than he does.

...or maybe pinstriped suits.

[Pontius Navigator]

Wiley, didn't the Norfolk shadow the Bismarck through the Denmark Stait?
Wrong county me thinks :)

[The Swinging Monkey]

Wiley,
Me thinks your nav kit is on the blink!
I think you are a couple of hundred miles too far out to the east old chap!
I do however think you may have a good point there. It is just possible that the RN top brass are trying to take the heat from the Captain of Cornwall by diverting attention over to others.
TSM

[Wiley]

Yep, looks like I'd better put a bit of work in on my English counties.

Maybe I've got it wrong again, but was I getting the name confused with another recent RN 'encounter' in (too) shallow water?

[Radar Command T/O]

That would have been HMS NOTTINGHAM then :)

[ZH875]

Maybe HMS Nottingham had too many Salad Dodgers on board!

[flash8]

We live in a "yooth" orientated "I'm out 4 myself" entwined with Warhols immortal words "Everybody will be famous for 5 minute" culture I'm afraid.

The ratings actions were to be expected, given the general low standards of the RN, compounded with no doubt inadequate training, totally inadequate ROE (other than Faye Turney smoking as the Iranians approached... my god!), and most certainly no BOI. You can be sure the Senior Officers are diving for cover under the wardroom table. After all promotion prospects comes before anything else, thats for sure.

Playing table tennis, watching footy, clutching goody bags, bleating about their inhumane treatment. It's more that a disaster, its a f*ck*** tragedy.

Des Browne's "I'm responsible although I'm not responsible" b*llsh*t scares me even more. Such a spineless classic NuLabor character. They have absolutely no shame.

My heart goes out to those four lads and lasses we lost. Don't we owe them, and others before them (and to come) some sense of decorum and decency.

[Pontius Navigator]

Flash, yr anger comes through as some of your assertions are possibly unfounded.

Now I am no naval discipline expert but, given the Nottingham example, a courts martial for anyone involved serves to publicly exonerate or blame. The former is very much a naval ethos matter.

Now in the recent incident, losing a couple of boats, 15 SA80 rifles, some radios, a dodgy GPS, a matelot's IPod and a few people, would also seem worthy of a courts martial, simply to exonerate those that might be in the frame.

But who to court martial? The Captain for not authorising a clearly inadequate search party? The Ex O for CAC training? Or the UN Force Commander for improper tasking?

As the later was on board the vessel at the time, where does this leave the Captain?

Shallow waters and clearly very muddy.

[Tourist]

flash8

re your "general low standards of the RN" quip.

stick it up your @rse.

[uncle peter]

Flash, you are in a way correct. Brother works in multimedia for BSkyB - going round the news desk at the moment is a story that apparently the Navy Lt, after his interview with the Sky news team asked "Who should I approach about auditioning as a weather presenter?"

He's convinced its a fact but I have too much faith...:sad:

[hoodie]

Don't you think it might just have been banter following a viewing of this?

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42753000/jpg/_42753447_tvfootagecaptives_203b.jpg

Banter which Sky were too dull to appreciate? :hmm:

Sorry, can't find equivalent pic of Lt Carman

Flash8, you say:
The ratings actions were to be expected, given the general low standards of the RN, compounded with no doubt inadequate training, totally inadequate ROE

You perhaps forget that they were explicitly told (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6536203.stm) that they could be paid for their stories. To a rating on sub-£20k and in those circumstances, that's tantamount to saying "Off you go - with MODs blessing", surely?

It doesn't make it right, and it should never have happened, but Turney and Batchelor are getting FAR too much criticism for my liking - criticism which they are consequently chaffing for someone else...

As for the personal insults on here - have a word with yourselves. :=

[dogstar2]

I have been watching this story and thinking that our RN boys and girl have been somewhat hijacked. The simple fact is that they were captured, released a certain amount of information, probably thought that they were going to die at various points all in the service of their country. In my opinion, they are brave and their story deserves to be told. The press wanted the story so what is wrong with them having it - it was actually good news that they came home alive and it makes good reading to have the odd bit of good news. The reaction by the MOD to a few questions from some sectors of the public has managed to blow this whole thing up into a mega press story and our serving members of the RN have come out of it very badly.

I thinkt that they should have been able to sell their story - lets face it every other senior officer who has commanded a battle (often well away from the front lines) seems totally justified in cranking out a book. I noticed today, that Gordon Brown has just published a book about bravery (note: a book about bravery written by someone who has never had a sniff of combat and who comes from a party which oozes insincerity and half truths) it seems that he is not under the microscope for cashing in on his fame when he should be spending more time looking after our brace troops who earn very little for risking all.

Perhaps leaving the guys to make a bit of cash would have allowed them to stay in the service and pass on the valuable lessons learned to others as per John Nichol and Peters. Now I suspect they will all leave feeling very much the scapegoats of a watch your six mentality of the senior civil servants and politicians.

RN guys, well done, you survived and lived to tell the tale. I would like to sit around a bar and listen to your stories over a couple of pints.

[flash8]

OK, I apologize for the cheap RN jibe, it was out of order. Just frustration.

It was clear that some of them (RM?) held their chin up, took no sh*t and didn't wave at the cameras (indeed they scowled.. well done lads!) as they were leaving the Military Big Brother fiasco.

I wasn't critical of their post release behaviour (distasteful as it may be) but their conduct in captivity. It was, to say the least, inappropriate, and I'd say (flames welcome) shameful.

If they tried to "fit" me in one of their shiny suits as I'd left I'd tell them to f*** off in no uncertain terms.

As Army, many years ago, we would have relished a good punch up, and creating as much interference as possible. How times change.

[oojamaflip]

The RN is taking some fairly big hits on this thread over the mettle of it's people following the hostage situation. I think it's telling that the same people who were duped onto camera were the same people who were duped by the MoD PRO's and the press into thinking that selling their stories was a clever thing to do. Anyone who believes that a naive young airman or squaddie wouldn't have done the same thing in similar circumstances is a fool.

As aircrew, we received conduct after capture training. Most of us like to think that as with the Tornado crews we would have had to take a severe kicking at least before we were scared or beaten enough to appear on TV. The Royals probably had some training, the Ship's crew would have been lucky if they had a lecture on conduct after capture, so they went in with nothing but pre-conceptions of torture, no knowledge of interrogators tricks and with only their intelligence to rely on. Unfortunately, some people are better armed in that regard than others. The interrogators aren't stupid, they pick on the weakest and ignore the rest. The media were despiccable (quelle surprise!), the first news I heard on the story was that the hostages included a woman who had a child! Thank you very much for that gem say the interrogators, she's our girl. That journo really should get a quiet warning shot to the back of the head. The Officers and NCOs saw through the tricks and their only crimes were against fashion for wearing those suits.

As to why it happened in the first place, well we all know why the RN is patrolling the S-A-A. If the Americans were there, war with Iran would be a certainty in days. That is the one thing no one can afford and that is why our guys don't even have the RoE to use strong language - talk about lambs to the slaughter. This is a government started and government finished gold-plated f##k-up and blaming two naive sailors (and lumping in the other 13 who have kept their traps shut) is pointless. Of course they made a mistake, but the system should have prevented it rather than encouraging it. They're Naval careers are effectively over, quit with the inter-service point scoring.

[John Boy 315]

The 15 hostages held in Iran did no less than is expected of HM Forces when held hostage, seemingly under the guidelines of the Geneva Convention. We have moved on from the era of "I cannot answer that question" and Name, Rank and Number. It is better to use the controlled release of non-operational information to appeal to the humanity of the captors rather than alienating yourself from them. Having never been taken hostage, I cannot begin to imagine what it must have felt like and for those who haven't, i don't believe we have sufficient knowledge to pass judgement on the "Iranian 15's" commitment to the service etc..

Also, with regards to selling their stories... why not? With the Navy able to offer advice and control the dealings with the media it ensures a more reliable account for the public. Let's face it, if they hadn't sold the story the media would have got one anyway from an ex, a third cousin etc..

[Brian Abraham]

Posted as it seems some may not be aware of what some press are reporting.

MoD plotted story sale while hostages were still in cells
By JANE MERRICK - Last updated at 08:39am on 13th April 2007

Days before the British hostages were freed by Iran, the Defence Ministry was already planning how their stories could be sold.
Officials devised a detailed strategy on how to deal with media bids even as Faye Turney and her fellow captors were languishing in cells in Tehran, a senior Whitehall source has told the Daily Mail.
The Defence Ministry were planning how to sell the captives stories when they were still in Iran
The revelation severely undermines claims by Defence Secretary Des Browne that he did not know in advance about the controversial decision to allow the accounts to be sold.
Insiders said it was inconceivable that he - and in turn Tony Blair - would not have been aware of the plan.
It also shows how, far from being pressured by the media, the MoD took an active part in controlling events.
Conservative MP Mark Lancaster, a serving Major in the Territorial Army, said: 'The more we delve the worse it gets. It is one thing saying they were forced to react in a difficult situation, but to actively plan is an entirely different story and I have great concerns about that.'
Mr Browne is becoming ever more isolated as he prepares to give a statement to the Commons on Monday. The Prime Minister cut him adrift on Wednesday by claiming to know nothing of the decision to break military precedent and allow the freed Marines and sailors to profit.
Last night Downing Street released a statement saying officials - including director of communications David Hill - played no part in the negotiations.
At the same time Foreign Office officials expressed their 'distaste' at the way there appeared to have been an 'overt' strategy to encourage Faye Turner and Arthur Batchelor to hawk accounts of their 13-day imprisonment for large sums.
It was previously thought that the decision to allow the sailors to cash in was made by the Royal Navy within hours of their arrival at Heathrow last week.
At the time, Second Sea Lord Vice Admiral Adrian Johns said the Navy had been forced to give in to pressure from the media 'waving big chequebooks around in front of them' and added: 'The decision was taken by the Royal Navy and then referred up the chain to the Ministry of Defence.'
Mr Browne has claimed he had only 'noted' the decision on Friday April 6, two days after the captives were released, and suggested the Navy were to blame. Mr Blair has insisted he knew of the move on Sunday April 8.
But the Whitehall source said a 'media strategy' had been in place for days because the MoD had already started to receive media bids.
Whitehall documents further undermined Mr Browne's claim that the Royal Navy took the key decision to allow the stories to be sold.
Orders issued two years ago insist that any media interviews must be cleared by the head of news management at the Ministry of Defence before a decision is taken - suggesting Mr Browne's officials endorsed the move.
The rules were introduced after the inquiry into the death of government scientist Dr David Kelly, who had been accused of talking out of turn to the BBC.
Lord Ramsbotham, a former director of public relations for the Army, said: 'My experience, certainly during the Falklands War and during the Beirut experience, was that everything was referred to Number 10 of some magnitude like this.'
Downing Street, however, continues flatly to deny being involved at any stage.

[tablet_eraser]

Officials devised a detailed strategy on how to deal with media bids even as Faye Turney and her fellow captors were languishing in cells in Tehran, a senior Whitehall source has told the Daily Mail.

So the Daily Hell has jumped to the conclusion that sensibly planning how best to deal with the intense media attention should the captives be released means the MOD was actively trying to sell the stories?

For :mad: 's sake, credit us with some intelligence. The MOD always plans for how to deal with the media. The Daily Wail is finding an issue that doesn't exist. Selling the stories was a colossal error of judgement, not a premeditated act of marketeering. I'm as pi$$ed off as anyone else about this, but I'd prefer it if newspapers would get their facts straight; that said, in this case it looks as though every fascist's favourite newspaper was actively trying to deceive people by equating "media strategy" with "unseemly money-grabbing scheme".

Odd that the Hellish Mail should be complaining about this, anyway, since it was the most aggressive and cash-laden paper of all when pursuing LS Turney...

[LFFC]

The Telegraph - 1156pm Sat 14 Apr 07 (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=1LZGF21QVHHSHQFIQMFCFFWAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2007/04/15/nbrowne15.xml)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/04/15/nbrowne15a.jpg

Des Browne was out of touch with his advisers and most senior aides for almost 24 hours as naval chiefs drew up plans to allow the sailors and Marines to talk and profit financially from their 13-day "ordeal", sparking accusations that he "went Awol".

As he travelled 400 miles to his home in Scotland, naval chiefs were finalising the crucial policy document listing the reasons why the sailors should be allowed to sell their stories to the media.


Another former chief of the defence staff, who asked not to be named, said that he believed Mr Browne's position had become "untenable". "We will have to wait and see what he says on Monday but his relationship with the chiefs will have been severely damaged by this. In my opinion, he cannot continue as the Secretary of State for Defence.

"He should resign. I find it extraordinary that the right people did not meet over the Easter weekend. You need to be on duty and meeting face to face and I don't sense that happened."

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I applaud them. Sell their stories. Write a book. Appear on Parkie.

The defence Chiefs have all done the same for many years. Just because you are a chain smoking, overweight Naval rating should not prohibit you from doing exactly what your senior managers have done.

There are many sanctimonious types pontificating about the honour of the service or their own -personal 'standards'. But if you replaced The Sun with Macmillan publishing and swapped £100k payment for a £400k advance you'd find their honour and standards are open to variation.

Anyone who is a lawyer works for the guilty in contravention of their beliefs in return for money.

When the financial welfare of your family is at stake I look poorly on any man
who doesn't grab the money.

The Service isn't what it was. We all know it. We all lament it. But there's no merit in condemning the 15.

None at all.

WWW

[Turbo542]

The Minister was shown on TV and the D.Telegraph coming out of an office wearing a suit that had been tailored in the suq at Bandar Abbas.I saw it was hoping that was his demob suit.:ok:

[Beeayeate]

Meanwhile the real story is slowly sinking into the sunset. The story that involves just why such a seemingly hastily put together and ill-prepared team was sent out such a distance in inflatables in the first place. And why their 'air cover' (the chopper) returned early. Didn't the Iranians show up on the radars of the Task Force?
Am I right in thinking that there was a BBC camera team on board the Cornwall at the time. This, based on the interview the BBC did with Turney '. . . two hours or so' before the mission.

[Heliport]

PR agent Max Clifford said he had been approached by the fathers of two of the crew and had advised them to give the money to families of those who had lost their lives in Iraq to defuse any "backlash".




http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Rotorheads/des_browne_max_clifford.jpg

[Wiley]

Many of the reactions I see here convince me that timing is everything, for I read a post on the main board just after the 15's release asking what seemed to me a reasonable question about whether some reactionaries might use this incident to question the wisdom of putting females into situations with a high risk of capture, if, (as some were asserting at that early stage), some of the males rolled over so quickly because they felt they had to protect their female colleague from the proverbial fate worse than death.

I can't say who the poster was, because the moderator pulled the post, and if my recollections are even halfway accurate, the post was almost uncontroversial compared to most of the posts I see here now.

(And PLEASE, before anyone lets loose a broadside at me for mentioning what seems to be the unmentionable, I too am in awe of Sgt Rachael MacDonald, who displayed more balls than I think I'd have in the situation she so ably handled.)

But I think the poster whose post was deleted has a point - did the presence of a female among the captives complicate the situation for the others, and in particular the officers, both at the point of contact and again after capture?

I suppose while I'm stirring murky waters, I may as well ask the other unmentionable question: unfair as it may be, (and please note that proviso, but we know life's anything but fair, particularly in the services), should they decide to stay in the service after this unfortunate incident, what credibility will the two officers have with any men who will serve under them in future?

And I suppose I should close with a wish similar to the one I expressed in an earlier post on this thread: I really hope all the finger pointing at the 15 will not allow the senior people - both uniformed and civilian - who put them in such an impossible situation, to escape answering some very searching questions they need to answer.

Re the 15: the term 'tethered, sacrificial goats' is one that comes immediately to mind – (and I’m referring as much to their situation post-release as to the one they were put into that allowed them to be captured).
(Edited for spelling and grammatical errors.)

[Low Flier]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/04/15/matt.gif

[Pontius Navigator]

Wiley, I think you will be OK in your wish. The media seem in full flight against the Government and Dismal Des.

True they would have anticipated lines to take (If they really did think that far ahead - what do you think?) on the other hand some bright spark, like Jo Moore, may have thought what a great opportunity.

Anyone read Alan Bastard in yesterday's Sunday Telegraph? Indeed what has happened to the Cash for Honours enquiry?

Also, I loved Christopher Booker's apology to Patricia Hewitt. She had been quoted as saying that it was shocking that Faye was shown smoking in Iranian TV - sending quite the wrong message to youth in UK. Poor diddums had not noticed it was 1 April.

Anyway, certainly proves smoking does not depress the appetite, nor keep you thin.

[chippy63]

Just refreshing the Downing Street petition link ahead of the HoC "debate" today:
petitions.pm.gov.uk/Navy-media/

[GPMG]

Spoke to an oppo over the weekend and he said that the word is that the Marines did not attempt to sell any stories, and that just before the time of capture, that they were up for going weapons free.

I hope that was true and that if they are that those facts will come out. If so I hope that they will be thought of as seperate from the toerags that have let the RN down.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

This is a couple or 3 dots off centreline for this Thread but http://www.ft.com/cms/s/30a6b8cc-e9e6-11db-91c7-000b5df10621,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2F www.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F30a6b8cc-e9e6-11db-91c7-000b5df10621.html&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ft.com%2Fsearch%3FqueryText%3 Dcaldwell puts things in an interesting perspective. It makes parallels between brainwashing in the Korean War and the treatment of the CORNWALL 15. It points out the social differences between our Society then and now, along with relative resistance to attitude and belief forming.


What happened in North Korean and Chinese POW camps between 1950 and 1953, wrote T.R. Fehrenbach, one of the war's first historians, "has become an emotional issue, and for that reason will probably never be clarified". The Korean war is known as the "forgotten war" because Americans have strong incentives to repress the memory of it. The US Army court-martialled 14 soldiers as weaklings and bad actors, convicted 11 and tried to wash its hands of the matter. But the episode created an undercurrent of paranoia that one can see in, for instance, the film The Manchurian Candidate. In 2000, a fine book, Raymond Lech's Broken Soldiers (University of Illinois Press) used declassified documents to show that brainwashing could be almost universally effective when skilfully applied. US soldiers behaved like a colonial population evangelised overnight. POWs wrote for in-house communist newspapers in exchange for cigarettes. They set up "peace committees". They offered to spy. They signed documents declaring the United Nations the aggressor in Korea. Two POWs confessed (under torture) to dropping biological weapons. At war's end, 21 prisoners chose to stay in Korea.
It is not easy for publics to accept that, well, such things happen in war. One reason is that the public senses inclination to be brainwashed. along with the captives. There are telling similarities between the Korean war era and our own. In both cases, a shock to the international order (the Chinese revolution of 1949, September 11, 2001) precipitated a military intervention, which in turn exacted a much higher toll than the public was willing to bear. During Korea, a certain current of western opinion wanted to believe the claims, however fraudulent, that the UN was waging germ warfare. (Maybe then we can bring the soldiers home.) In Britain, columnists have urged that more credence be given to the absurd and self-contradictory Iranian account of the seizure. Reality gets harder for the general public to read. It is possible to see in retrospect the pivotal role Korea played in softening up the US for McCarthyism in the 1950s. The behaviour of a soldier in captivity is often an indictment of the virtues of the society that produced him. Turkish captives, with their strong sense of authority and their vernacular religiosity did better in Korean prison camps than Americans, according to Mr Fehrenbach. British prisoners, with their sense of social hierarchy, did somewhat better. "American education," Mr Fehrenbach wrote, "had done a great deal of damping of the flaming convictions men live and die by." Brave and upstanding though they might have been in other contexts, Americans were quite unsuited to such an ordeal. The British soldier of today is more like the open-minded American of 1950 than the class-bound Briton of 1950. Open-mindedness, perhaps the ultimate democratic is a more ambiguous virtue once violence enters the equation.

I do realise, of course, that the N Koreans/Chinese had blokes for months and not just days. The general mechanism seems valid, nonetheless.

[vee-tail-1]

Perhaps an explanation of why people do bad things is to be found in this book. Mentioned on BBC Radio 4 "Start the Week" on Mon 16th April at 09.00hrs.
"The Lucifer Effect" or How Good People turn Evil by Phillip Zimbado, published by Rider. Dr Zimbado is the scientist who carried out the Stanford University experiments where volunteers acted out roles as prisoners or guards.

[Pontius Navigator]

GBZ, I was going to comment from what my then boss told be many years ago, however your second quote covers all the points he made.

The conditions in which the prisoners were kept was similar to the conditions that the Turkish troops enjoyed at home. Furthermore the Koreans did not have as many Turkish linguists.

There was a particularly vivid film, I think the princple, playing a British Army Cpl was Victor Madden (or something like that). The film might have been made by the Army Film Unit and the message was solidarity in hardship. One of the POWs was an outsider and therefore picked on by the Koreans. He was brought back into the fold and they all resisted successfully.

The isolation that the Iranians practised served to cut out one of two of the prisoners. When they were all reunited for the photoshoots that rather upset that ploy.

[Top Right]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7143482.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/14/narmy214.xml

[minigundiplomat]

Spoke to an oppo over the weekend and he said that the word is that the Marines did not attempt to sell any stories, and that just before the time of capture, that they were up for going weapons free.



I find that very easy to believe.

[Vie sans frontieres]

Turney and Able Seaman Arthur Batchelor were allowed to sell their stories to the tabloids and ITN after their release.

So from those in the know, are Faye & Arthur still in the Navy or have they done the sensible thing?

[Bruiser Loose]

I think Faye now has a modelling contract and Arthur is studying for a PhD at Hull University.

[Blade_blender]

Whats the big deal about letting them cash in? Lets face it the government Bu*****ks the services in every other aspect so if they get something good out of it then fair enough. Besides, no point in getting too high and mighty about it. I mean there was no outrage over "Tornado Down" was there???

[charliegolf]

there was no outrage over "Tornado Down" was there

Was that because so few people read it, maybe?

CG

[ZH875]

I think Faye now has a modelling contract.

Well at least the military may get better marquees to have their summer bash's in :O

[Blade_blender]

A fair point. And correct about the different circumstances. Principle still the same though. Tell your story and make a buck or two. I'm just uncomfortable with the RN folks getting a kicking for doing what probably most of us would do.

For what its worth, I thought Tornado Down was a good read. And important that it was told, for me anyway.

[Henry_Harris]

wouldn't selling secrects like that be a breech of the official secrets act

slightly confused

[minigundiplomat]

I don't think you are confused at all Henry. Nice rod and reel combo!

[MarkD]

Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2465118/Iranian-hostage-Royal-Navy-captain-sacked.html)

Commander Jeremy Woods was sacked from the Type 22 frigate following "administrative action" taken by the Navy, the Ministry of Defence said.

But the Navy insisted that the dismissal was "absolutely not" related to the capture of 15 sailors and Royal Marines last year or to any personnel issues on board.

Although the Cornwall incident happened in March last year, Navy chiefs decided that Cdr Woods, 41, was not suitable to continue running the £250 million ship 16 months after the incident that caused national humiliation.

A Navy spokesman confirmed the officer had been "removed from command".

"This is an internal administrative matter between the individual and his senior officers and we will not give further details of the removal," he added.

He will remain in the Navy but is now likely to take up an administrative post "where his talent and experience can be used to best effect".
{snip}
"As a result of the Cornwall incident the Navy is getting pretty ruthless and if you are not up to scratch there is no way of hiding it these days," a serving officer said.

"If you cannot hack it you are shipped out because you cannot afford to risk one her Majesty's ships. There are also few ships around and plenty of young officers who want to command them."

[exscribbler]

Is this the same as being "dismissed the ship" even though there's been no Court Martial? I notice there's no reprimand, severe or otherwise, so is this the end of his career? There are those who lost secret documents and still made it to 1SL and the House of Lords, so all may not be lost.

[mystic_meg]

This is an internal administrative matter between the individual and his senior officers

Err... right, so that's why it has been made public then? Funny bunch these matelots:ugh:

[glad rag]

Post 237. So suddenly that makes it so, so, clear.
Dartmouth can no longer sort the wheat from the chaff, is that so?:suspect:

[Two's in]

This is an internal administrative matter between the individual and his senior officers

...that's the Navy's official line on the matter, releasing it to the press is the MoD getting the right level of spin to show that blithering incompetence will not be accepted - unless you're the (part-time) Defence Minister of course.

[Gainesy]

I heard that the ship screwed up big time in the "Thursday War" last week and that the Captain and two or three Department Heads got the boot.

[spheroid]

His lightly-armed boarding party of 14 men and one woman were unprepared for a surprise attack by Iranian fast boats just off the Iraqi coast


Quoted from today's Sun newspaper.

What the RN needs is training in countering surprise attacks.

[Modern Elmo]

The Korean war is known as the "forgotten war" because Americans have strong incentives to repress the memory of it.

Huh?

Says who?

You're thinking about this book title:

The Forgotten War: America in Korea, 1950-1953 (http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-War-America-Korea-1950-1953/dp/1591140757/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217386902&sr=1-7)by Clay Blair Jr. (Paperback - Mar 31, 2003)
9 Used & new (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1591140757/ref=sr_1_olp_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217386902&sr=1-7) from $26.98
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/common/customer-reviews/ratings/stars-4-5._V25749327_.gif (http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1591140757/ref=sr_1_7_cm_cr_acr_img?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1) (12 (http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1591140757/ref=sr_1_7_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1))

Other Editions: Hardcover (http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-War-America-Korea-1950-1953/dp/0812916700/ref=sr_oe_7_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217386902&sr=1-7), Paperback (http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-War-Clay-Blair/dp/0385260334/ref=sr_oe_7_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217386902&sr=1-7)


8.
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-site/icons/no-img-sm._V47056216_.gif (http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-War-America-Korea-1950-1953/dp/B000OKBAD2/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217386902&sr=1-8)
The Forgotten War: America in Korea, 1950-1953 (http://www.amazon.com/Forgotten-War-America-Korea-1950-1953/dp/B000OKBAD2/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217386902&sr=1-8)by Clay Blair (Hardcover - 1987)
2 Used & new (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B000OKBAD2/ref=sr_1_olp_8?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217386902&sr=1-8) from $5.82

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+forgotten+war&x=12&y=23 (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=the+forgotten+war&x=12&y=23)

In the US, the Korean war tends to be forgotten because it's overshadowed by WWII and Viet Nam.

In addition, the globalist free free free lobby wants to downplay the fact the the USA has aready been at war with China. But that set is not "Americans" in general.

[Modern Elmo]

It is possible to see in retrospect the pivotal role Korea played in softening up the US for McCarthyism in the 1950s.

Utter, total horsh*&t.

[exscribbler]

The Korean War by Max Hastings is far better, IMHO.

[Archimedes]

I suspect that a post has gone missing in action between what may have been 1.4G's last contribution to this site for a while and Modern Elmo's reply, EOSM37.

By the by, McCarthyism was up and running four months before the Korean War kicked off, so a bit hard for that conflict to soften the Americans up if using the usually accepted pre-emptive connotations of that term...

[Modern Elmo]

By the by, McCarthyism was up and running four months before the Korean War kicked off, so a bit hard for that conflict to soften the Americans up if using the usually accepted pre-emptive connotations of that term...

Thanks for reminding us of that, Archimedes.

US society in general being soft, or US POW's in Korea defecting to Communism -- neither of those were Sen. Joe Maccarthy's issues.

His obsession was Red spies, secret agents, and fellow travellers in US government in Washington ... pals and fellow travelers with the Labour gooberment in the UK that gave the Soviets the Nene engine to use in the Mig-15.

And subsequent historians have found loveable old Joe to be more right than wrong. More right -- meaning correct -- than America's left-leaning so-called intelligentisia has ever admitted or ever will admit. I'll cite some books, if anybody's interested.

[Modern Elmo]

Here's appropriate reading for the pprune book club:


Soviet MiG-15 Aces of the Korean War


#bw06_upgrade_flash {display: none }http://www.randomhouse.com/images/dyn/cover/?source=9781846032998&height=300&maxwidth=170





Written by Leonid Krylov (http://www.randomhouse.com/author/results.pperl?authorid=78019)http://www.randomhouse.com/art/bw06/catalog/btn_author_alert.png (http://www.randomhouse.com/author/at.pperl?authorid=78019&action=age_check)
Illustrated by Yuriy Tepsurkaev (http://www.randomhouse.com/author/results.pperl?authorid=78020)http://www.randomhouse.com/art/bw06/catalog/btn_author_alert.png (http://www.randomhouse.com/author/at.pperl?authorid=78020&action=age_check)


Category: History (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/results.pperl?cat_id_ex=History:3869) - Military (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/results.pperl?cat_id_ex=History%20%2d%20Military:3901) - Aviation (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/results.pperl?cat_id_ex=History%20%2d%20Military%20%2d%20Avi ation:3915)
Format: Trade Paperback, 96 pages
On Sale: May 20, 2008 <LI class=price_DHDKF>Price: $22.95
ISBN: 978-1-84603-299-8 (1-84603-299-7) Published by Osprey Publishing

About Soviet MiG-15 Aces of the Korean...
Praise (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781846032998&view=quotes)ABOUT THIS BOOK


The Soviet Union began assisting the People's Republic of China in its establishment of a modern air force in 1950, when Soviet Air Force regiments were sent to train local pilots. China's involvement in the Korean War in late October 1950 inevitably drew Soviet pilots into the war. A total of 52 Soviet pilots scored five or more victories in the Korean War. The history of these covert actions has been a long-buried secret and this book will be the first English publication to detail the only instance when the Cold War between Russia and the US became "hot." This book uncovers Soviet combat experiences during the Korean War from detailed unit histories and rare first-hand accounts. With access to extensive Russian archives, the authors offer an enthralling insight into an air war that has been largely covered up and neglected, illustrated with previously unpublished photographs and detailed full-color profiles.

About the Author

Leonid Krylov and Yuriy Tepsurkaev have been researching the covert Soviet Air Force participation in the air war over North Korea for almost 20 years, and they have published several articles and books on the subject in Russia. Their research, started in 1989, is based on Soviet documents stored at the Central Archive of the Russian Defence Ministry and recollections of veterans of the 64th IAK. During 17 years of research, the authors have accumulated recollections from over 100 participants in the Korean War, and studied several thousand archive documents ranging from debriefing and combat reports to documents drawn up by the Air Force Commander-in-Chief and the Air Force General Staff. The author lives in Russia.

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781846032998 (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9781846032998)