Another Bombarider blunder - flap failures during cold weather operations

[Grunf]

Hello all.

This SAIB (http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/safety/alerts/saib/media/NM-07-26.pdf)from FAA is another example of poor and hasty design :{

One would expect Bombarider a/c being capable of withstanding those pesky winter conditions?!

Anyway what else can go wrong when a type cert for a regional jet is based on the original certification of a business jet (for does of you not informed CRJ 200 etc. were certified as DERIVATIVES of the originally certified Canadair Challenger CL - 600)?

FAA accepted the TC (Transport Canada derivative certificate) which already got Bombardier in hot water (one gets to mind the case of a large amount paid to Bill Lear's widow).

Hopefully for all, both crews and passengers, this will be that last blunder with this model.

Cheers

[flyboyike]

The flap freeze possibility is the reason why we don't suck the flaps up on the ground past 20deg, except on the last flight of the day.

[411A]

Nothing new with this sort of flap problem...the B707 had the same, more or less, quite a long time ago.:rolleyes:

[View From The Ground]

So because the B707 had an issue its acceptable for a type produced many years later to have a similar issue?? The world and airplane design have come on a little bit since the B707 was manufactured

[bzh]

grease is made in texas......:ugh:

[av8boy]

So because the B707 had an issue its acceptable for a type produced many years later to have a similar issue?? The world and airplane design have come on a little bit since the B707 was manufactured


Don't think that's what 411A was saying at all. If you're going to kill us older guys for chiming-in with our experience, you're going to miss quite a lot of valuable information. And that's me with wine in me!

Dave

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Actually, you may notice that this SAIB isn't addressed to Challenger 600/601/604/605 operators, just CRJ. Which may be a clue that the design of the flaps ISN'T common between the business aircraft and their regional derivative.

There may be things you can blame the CRJ's business ancestors for, but this isn't one of them.

[Speedbird48]

There was a flap actuator modification several years ago. If your actuators were modified you selected the flaps up after landing and if not you did not fully retract them.

I seem to recall that Atlantic Coast/Independance modified all of theirs but Comair, amongst others, didn't.

An issue that should have been fixed by now, unless this is a later issue, and I am away from the things now.

[Grunf]

MFS,

you're correct:} This was caused by a redesign of the flaps for Series CRJ 200 since the flap from CRJ 100 was touching ground (from time to time) during take-offs. My bad on that one. Still, my comment on certification holds. I've just used the opportunity.

Cheers

[View From The Ground]

Hi AV8 of course I respect experience, perhaps what I should have said that if the B707 had such a problem it is disappointing that it has not been learnt from and the a similar problem still exists on what is a much newer type. Normally aviation is reasonably good at learning from its mistakes...

[411A]

Oh, dear, where do I start?
Actually LEARNED from, you say, VFTG?
The sad fact is, in aviation, many of the same mistakes are made over and over...with each new generation.
Especially with pilots.
Take AA with their missing vertical stab, on the A300-600.
It was years and YEARS ago that pilots were taught that to use a powered rudder agressively was a road to disaster.
Did the pilots at AA know this?
Probably not, and shame on them...and especially, shame on the company.
-or-
Climbing well above optimum altitude, and finding that once there, you can't stay.
Pinnacle Airlines ring a bell?
Yep, the 'new' guys know it all, and continue to crash for some of the same reasons, nevertheless.
Yeah, the airplanes may well be more reliable, yet the loose nuts at the pointy end are still a problem.

[ICT_SLB]

Grunf,
There is no difference between the flaps systems on CRJ-100s & -200s. The only major operating change was the introduction of the optional 10 degree flap setting for takeoff as well as the original 20 degrees. I don't see how you could have a flap touch during takeoff - they go out to 45 for touchdown which is much lower relative to the gear when compressed. The only other addition to the overall flaps system was the flap skew system to help prevent jamming/offsets - remember the interim "3 fingers" check and/or additional flap markings?

[flyboyike]

Grunf,
There is no difference between the flaps systems on CRJ-100s & -200s. The only major operating change was the introduction of the optional 10 degree flap setting for takeoff as well as the original 20 degrees.


You sure you don't mean optional 8 deg position?

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

I've seen both used to describe that flap setting. Although 8 is the more common, it (the 8 or 10 thing) partly stems from the fact that the IB and OB flaps don't go to the same angles.

[flyboyike]

I've seen both used to describe that flap setting. Although 8 is the more common, it (the 8 or 10 thing) partly stems from the fact that the IB and OB flaps don't go to the same angles.


The point is that there is no 10deg position for the flap lever. Only 8, 20, 30, and 45. Neither are there performance numbers for flaps 10, only for 8 or 20.

Nice recovery on the IB/OB thing. Pretty sure this is the first time I hear something quite that creative. And to think, all this time I've been going by what the lever and the ED1 say. I should have been thinking the whole time "Gee, I wonder what angle my OBs are at."

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I've seen it called both Flaps 8 (more frequent) and Flaps 10 (less frequent) on internal documents.

Its called 8 on the lever, agreed, but what we put on the lever doesn't have to be what it *IS*. If you measure the angle on the flaps at "flaps 45" you may be surprised by what you find, for example .....

[flyboyike]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I've seen it called both Flaps 8 (more frequent) and Flaps 10 (less frequent) on internal documents.



Interesting...by internal do you mean Bombardier or your company? May I assume also that you've seen 20 referred to as 23.6, 30 as 33.4 and 45 as 46.772 or whatever?

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Bombardier.

And no, just 8 (10) because that's the "new" flap setting - the others all date back to the original Challenger, so no-one had to learn whether to say "18" or "20". It was set from day one. I think the "8" setting may actually be 10 degrees in some cases - perhaps the 700 & 900, though memory is a bit hazy - but it was still called "8" for commonality anyway.