RAF Helicopter Navigators (WSOps) - What Do They Actually Do? [Archive]

GasFitter

5th Apr 2007, 19:33

This is a genuine request.
.
Can someone please tell me what they actually offer to the cockpit, after all that training, that a second pilot does not? I cannot think of a single thing in their favour. Furthermore, where are they on the Navigator 'food chain' list when the jobs are being given out after Nav training?
.
Please .. someone help me, or confirm my thoughts and fears!

ZH875

5th Apr 2007, 19:40

Furthermore, where are they on the Navigator 'food chain'
Like most Navigators (WSOs) I know, they are probably right at the front of ANY food chain that is giving out food...:O

Elmlea

5th Apr 2007, 19:42

I thought all our rotary fleets had moved to two-pilot ops, and the only remaining navs were seeing out their time?

... which would bear out your point that they don't offer anything a second pilot doesn't, I suppose.

GasFitter

5th Apr 2007, 19:46

Thanks Elmlea.
.
So what's changed? Why were they recruited in the first place?

Pontius Navigator

5th Apr 2007, 19:51

Cheap and available when pilots were scarce and expensive.

GasFitter

5th Apr 2007, 19:58

So what does it say about all those heli-navs out there at the moment? Have all their careers come to an end?

ShyTorque

5th Apr 2007, 20:09

Jenks and Nige M*****y? They still walking? Send my regards, ex-240, sorry 27(R) Sqn from early 90's.

I quite enjoyed having a map stand in the LHS. :E

Pontius Navigator

5th Apr 2007, 20:15

Have all their careers come to an end?

yes, that is what seeing out their time? usually means.

Why were they recruited in the first place?

They weren't, well not as helicopter Navs that is.

Twas jobs for the boys when they had nowhere else to go.

Cheap and available when pilots were scarce and expensive

and you can't just keep hiring and firing, this isn't some cheap fly by night charter operation. Redundancy takes 3 years.

however

Prefered 2 crew ops and an empty left hand seat myself.

but this does make it difficult to turn left.

Got it? Does that cover what you need to know?

charliegolf

5th Apr 2007, 20:26

Pontius
Wessex pilots only turned right anyway. Their ancient crewmen couldn't get across the cabin quick enough for a looksee left.;)
CG
Starship Crewman (Retd)

Pontius Navigator

5th Apr 2007, 20:33

I didn't think a Wessex had the capacity to carry a navigator AND the rations.

charliegolf

5th Apr 2007, 20:53

Having seen one or two of the pilots, should there be a survival situation, I think the nav would become the rations!

CG

Wessex Boy

5th Apr 2007, 22:43

Oi! I'll have you know that I fell out of a Wessex once in my haste to get from the bubble Window to the door....slightly missed the hand-hold, All my instructor saw was me get up and do a 'superman' out of the door!
The 'Monkey Harness' really works:\

On the subject of rations I held the Shawbury record of most different fillings in a Sandwich at 15:E Unfortunately the Station Commander of Aldegrove walked in as I was breaking up the KitKat on top of the Tuna and Primula Cheese spread...:ooh:

navibrator

6th Apr 2007, 05:21

Gasfitter
From a couple of your posts, it seems you have some fascination about navigators and implications they offer, or in more modern times, they offered nothing! Obviously, you are either a single seat pilot or a failed nav. Own up!

Skua'd

6th Apr 2007, 11:24

At least in the dark blue Lynx we get a front seat and fly as aircraft commander....
:)

Gnd

6th Apr 2007, 11:58

Jenks, vortex ring/QHNI type, blimey not seen him around for a while!!!!!:)

Impiger

6th Apr 2007, 12:17

Given Des Browne's recent statement about 6 more Merlin and 8 more Chinooks I'd wager we'll see a return to single pilot+nav operations in some helicopters for some tasks before too long. I think the aircraft can be brought into Service more rapidly than extra pilots can be trained. Might need to think again about crewman numbers too. Just an observation;)

GasFitter

6th Apr 2007, 12:30

Neither, me old. As mentioned, it was a genuine question. I see some Heli-Navs hitting at SO1 level and therefore their careers are saved in the GD Branch, whereas I see young Heli-Navs and I wonder what their future is ..... Flt Ops? I see a role for other Navs (WSOps), but I struggle with this one. If it were the troops, the trade would be shut and they would be made to wither on the vine.
.
I suppose I thought I was missing atrick, but it seems not to be the case. My fears appear to have been well-founded. I haven't seen any convincing argument for their role yet.

Evalu8ter

6th Apr 2007, 13:24

Gas,
A fair series of observations. I'd argue that, if anything, SH Navs (& Crewmen) have done rather better than pilots on recent promotion boards to SO2 - certainly in terms of a percentage. Now whether this is a sympathy thing (ie, little chance of PA for Navs/Crewmen as Flt Lts, so promote them or they're forced out...) or we're in the middle of a "golden age" of special aircrew or, just maybe, they don't have to work as hard at their primary duty as pilots and have more time for career guff ( now running, ducking, covering...!) I don't know. I'd say a mixture of all three. Suffice to say that about 80%, I'd guess, of commissioned SH aircrew are pilots - yet at a secret Hampshire airbase out of 8 available flt cdr slots some 4 are non-pilot (and one of the remaining 4 is an ex-Nav!). Some get disillousioned at the "glass ceiling" against Navs in the higher echelons of the RAF and bang out, others hang in as they haven't got a traditionally transferrable skill to the outside world. Instead they either have to pay a stack of cash for an ATPL (and some have, doing very well at it) or enter the Defence Industry (which seems to be chokka with ex GR1 SO2/SO1 navs!). I'm not sure if we're training any more, but I learnt an awful lot from flying with experienced Navs when I was an LCR mate, gaining valuable captaincy experience, yet having an old head to keep an eye on me!

blimy

6th Apr 2007, 13:46

So, what do the dark blue navs actually do?? I recently passed AIB for aircrew, have been told that there is a high chance of being offered obs. I guess this is the time I need to know what they do! :}
reading your posts about Crab Air, is theie a full career awaiting new RN obs??

navibrator

6th Apr 2007, 14:10

Humble apologies Gasfitter!

electric.sheep

6th Apr 2007, 14:39

Given Des Browne's recent statement about 6 more Merlin and 8 more Chinooks I'd wager we'll see a return to single pilot+nav operations in some helicopters for some tasks before too long.

That'll be ineresting as they're not training any new ones, only recycling the ones not good enough for pilot crossover or promotion.

Two's in

6th Apr 2007, 18:55

Someone has to put the blanks on...

GasFitter

6th Apr 2007, 19:26

Good Post .. Useful stuff. i wonder if some of the yung'uns are being offered a re-role?

Dunhovrin

9th Apr 2007, 09:49

I seem to remember they were dumped on us because it was jobs for the boys when the GR1 force started getting reduced and they had nowhere else to put them. Anyone else there at the start when several with major chips arrived? MVB and The Judge spring to mind. Sadly the next bunch of first tourist navs ruined it all by being good eggs.
Jenks - saved my life once, dontchaknow?

threepointonefour

9th Apr 2007, 09:55

How on earth has this thread managed to run to 2 pages???
Wait ... hover for a minute ... yep, thought so. The sign says "M6 North. Go that way."

Ok.

Life at 100 kts.

Pontius Navigator

9th Apr 2007, 10:42

Dunhovrin, it also happened when the Shack 'force' reduced for those that did not want the Nimwacs.

Of course, aside from navigation, they are fully trained aircrew and as capable of mission accomplishment as any other aircrew (or they should be).

electric.sheep

9th Apr 2007, 12:22

Of course, aside from navigation, they are fully trained aircrew and as capable of mission accomplishment as any other aircrew (or they should be).

Bull****. So they can fly at 100' on NVG and land a load in the desert at night.

Klingon

9th Apr 2007, 14:11

All of this stuff was being done by a less well paid crewman long before the Navigator was dropped on the SH fleet!

I was at Odiham when the first guys arrived, most of them were decent blokes who couldnt give any more of a rational explanation for their career moves than those already expounded by the resident crews. "Why the F***K!" seemed to be the most common expression.

Now seen it a many times! Maritime, SH, now watch out for the FSTA......Navigator position made redundant then find another seat irrespective of whether any use or not. Some sort of handshake ritual I think.

Pontius Navigator

9th Apr 2007, 14:30

Klingon, can't argue with what you said, and the only times I have been in a military chopper was as a survivor on training or exercise.

As I think I alluded to earlier, a redundant navigator posted to helos provides better VFM than a redundant navigator made redundant.

To retain her or him as a make weight is cheaper than paying redundancy money and pension and trainning a NCA alternative.

samuraimatt

9th Apr 2007, 15:35

Navigators were employed on the SAR Wessex and some SeaKing posts as winch operators weren't they? Didn't they only take the best ones from a selection course?

Pontius Navigator

9th Apr 2007, 16:15

Sam, quite right. I know several that failed. However I also know of one nav whose vocation was SAR. He fought tooth and nail to get off the Nimrod, which he did after two tours and finished the rest of his career, at least 25 yrs on the SAR choppers.

Klingon

9th Apr 2007, 17:42

It wasnt a case of training an NCA replacement as no training was ever needed! The crewmen were already VERY competent in both the middle and LH seat.

Shame that only 10 years or so later (1992) they offered redundancies but still persisted with the Navigator on SH.

samuraimatt

9th Apr 2007, 17:49

How did the Puma fleet ever cope without a Navigator flying around Germany with only TANS and two crew?

Biggus

9th Apr 2007, 18:21

'RAF Helicopter Navigators - What do they actually do?'

I have known a couple in my time, before they crossed to the dark side. As to what they do, probably......

Draw a reasonable salary.

Attempt to do their job to the best of their ability. Despite the fact that it was almost certainly not the posting they initially asked for or wanted.

Go to some c**p places in the world and get shot at.

Put up with all the pilot put downs.

Put up with the (hopefully small number of) crewmen who have 'chips' on their shoulder about helicopter Navs.

What else would you expect them to do?????

wokkameister

9th Apr 2007, 19:10

Talking of chips, can I have a whopper too, oh and I'll go supersize please Mr Nav.

ProfessionalStudent

9th Apr 2007, 19:13

Wokkameister

I wondered how long it would be before you got hold of this one!

I couldn't find my arse in a bath, me...

But the galling thing is, they get paid more than you and have a comfier seat than you. 50% more money, 50% less work.:ouch:

But at least you can live with yourself...:ok:

wokkameister

9th Apr 2007, 19:18

Ha Ha,

Sorry, couldn't resist it. Some of my best friends are Navs/Ex Navs, but don't tell anybody!

Tiger_mate

9th Apr 2007, 21:22

How did the Puma fleet ever cope without a Navigator flying around Germany with only TANS and two crew?

Compass, watch, map; the TANS was a luxury that you could live without. In any case, if you updated it frequently, it was quite reliable, it had a Decca input you know. ........and if Kaunitz to the Bielefeld gap by the safari park is 065`, I did it far to often. N51556....... E000 08189 I wonder if that is right.

samuraimatt

9th Apr 2007, 21:25

Did you have those god awful Decca maps with lines all over the place and the four instruments to make sense of it all?

Tiger_mate

9th Apr 2007, 21:35

Yup, but in fairness, you would set them up and let them feed the TANS.

jayteeto

9th Apr 2007, 21:49

Selective memory here. On the puma, did you need to set the decca up or did it just automatically feed the kit. In my 2500 hours on type, I NEVER learned to set up the decca nav.
In fairness to navs, it may be my well documented limited capacity, but I found pilot/crewman great fun and incredibly incredibly incredibly hard work. When they gave me a nav to talk to, I actually found time to enjoy the view at 50'. I even started to remember what I did on the sortie, rather than see helmet smoke in front of my eyes. :ooh:

charliegolf

9th Apr 2007, 22:31

My selective (that's failing) memory says, 'no'. The signal was already TANS- bound. You set the Decca up for the sole purpose of being 'trapped' on a check ride, and asked for the once in a lifetime (post mmmmm '82 ish?) Decca letdown. I lie. You also used it for passing the time on Gut trainers or the reverse. Useful over the upper channel/lower north sea.
On navs- always got on fine with them. One, a former AAITC bod on 33 had a Welsh name like 'good heavens', and did do the non stop windup about the extra dosh. We 'ad 'im though!
And Stevo on 230. He's another story!
CG

JT: just noticed you're a pilot. You never set any Fcukin thing up in 2500 hrs!:ok:

jayteeto

9th Apr 2007, 22:51

True True, I had a man to do that don't you know :)

ProfessionalStudent

9th Apr 2007, 23:08

Pilot: Sticks and stupid questions:}

Nav: Charts and confusion:confused:

Crewman: Sanity, reason and rations:ouch:

Remember, not all 1000lb'ers are retarded...

Mal Drop

9th Apr 2007, 23:36

Happiness was a winchman's lasagne (spaghetti hoops, sliced processed cheese, spaghetti hoops, sliced processed cheese... repeat until bowl space/ingredients run out and microwave on high power until noisy).

Happier and more innocent days...

Stupidbutsaveable

10th Apr 2007, 13:15

Dunhovrin

I was on the other Sqn at the time; the one that didn't need to carry passports! You had MVB, we had DB. It gave all the crewmen something in common; " eeeeh, I don't believe it, 'tis first time I've ever been lost in't helicopter".:rolleyes:

DB

Trust you'll excuse the cheap shot, happy days.

ProfessionalStudent

10th Apr 2007, 17:12

I've been lost with DB.

Who else? Come on, hands up now!:ok:

Obviously, I knew where we were all the time...;)

R 21

10th Apr 2007, 17:13

Might have been situationally unaware of my position with DB but it was at night so it didn't count!:\

threepointonefour

10th Apr 2007, 19:44

Lost at 2 nm/min?!

Quality.

ProfessionalStudent

10th Apr 2007, 20:24

3.14

He was an ex FJ mate, so perhaps struggled to adapt to navving at <50'. Trust me, vis nav to a rotten plank over a dried up brook at those kind of hts isn't as easy as you may think - even at 2nm/min (bearing in mind the old Wessex only had clock and compass as navaids).

Originally posted by GasFitter

So what does it say about all those heli-navs out there at the moment? Have all their careers come to an end?

Most have been promoted. Those remaining have just had the pilot crossover route re-opened. So maybe a few more pilogators are in the offing?

charliegolf

10th Apr 2007, 20:31

Pro Stude

No-one, and I mean no-one, can shovel coal fast enough to get a Wessex to 120 knots. Well p'raps on Fantasy Island!

Agree about the 50' stuff though.

CG

ProfessionalStudent

10th Apr 2007, 20:33

Speak for yourself! I saw 120kts+ a few times! Knocked all my fillings out mind!:ok:

charliegolf

10th Apr 2007, 20:35

Underslung by a chinny maybe?:ok:

CG

ProfessionalStudent

10th Apr 2007, 20:37

Jehova! I just had a big shovel and an extra Shredded Wheat!:}

ShyTorque

10th Apr 2007, 22:12

JT2 and CG,
In my early days on the old Pume the TANS was still in a brochure and the DECCA flight log definitely needed setting up! We used to go to and from Germany with turret keys for the chain changes in a nice, varnished wooden case.

The TANS was a bit of a revelation. The DECCA display didn't always work correctly and infrequently needed a bit of help. I did know how to set up the 'Deccometers' at one time, but I couldn't do it now!

When I went back to fly the aircraft in the early 90s (3rd tour on type, out of four) only a few cabs still had the "old, Mark 1" DECCA TANS with only 9 en-route waypoints. During one NI detachment I was the only one who knew how to use it - crewmen included! No-one was interested in learning as it was obsolescent, with the exception of one unknown "hangar pilot" who kept playing overnight and deleting all my "scramble" waypoints, until I left a note threatening to investigate and charge whoever was doing it. Difficult now to imagine a nav system where ALL the waypoints were deleted every time the battery was turned off.

By then, all the young whippersnappers straight from the OCU knew how to use that SuperTANS / GPS input device though, I had to learn that as I went along.

Sorry the lamp is probably swinging far too much! :O

threepointonefour

10th Apr 2007, 23:45

He was an ex FJ mate, so perhaps struggled to adapt to navving at <50'. Trust me, vis nav to a rotten plank over a dried up brook at those kind of hts isn't as easy as you may think - even at 2nm/min (bearing in mind the old Wessex only had clock and compass as navaids).

Done it.

In aircraft older than a Wessex.

And timed to within 5 secs.

Ok, not at 50 feet, but then again I didn't have the luxury of a *pause* button whilst I worked out where I was.

There was a reason why many abo's went the rotary route. :eek:
ie. They were the ones that got lost at any feet. And there wasn't space for them on the Herc OCU.

ProfessionalStudent

11th Apr 2007, 08:03

3.14

Ok, not at 50 feet, but then again I didn't have the luxury of a *pause* button whilst I worked out where I was.

Anyone who's flown at <50' will tell you it's the <50' bit that's difficult. Especially to make a TOT. And the pause button's not really an option when the Taleban are hoofing RPGs at you.

You're right. Some abo's went rotary because they couldn't find their way out of wet paper bag open at both ends, but please don't tar us all with the same brush! Besides, I don't like pastry, so I couldn't have gone Hercs even if I'd wanted to.

threepointonefour

11th Apr 2007, 08:46

PS,

Touche!

But it's technique, not magic.

Tiger_mate

11th Apr 2007, 09:54

But it's technique, not magic.

I like that saying; I am going to put that in my little red book of SOP debrief points :E

threepointonefour

11th Apr 2007, 10:03

... am going to put that in my little red book of SOP debrief points

I have bags more. Just shout before your next debrief.

Here's a special one for you rotary navs;

10 Do better.
20 Goto 10

:ok:

ProfessionalStudent

11th Apr 2007, 19:18

3.14

Most were such crap navs, they made them pilots...!:p

lsh

11th Apr 2007, 19:48

Navs: What can I say? ........ Plenty!!
How about when the Captain (WIL) ordered the Nav to give me (crewman filth) the fifty-thou' so that we could find the DP, after 2 aborted run-ins, and let Cdr 1 BR Corps out!! (a VIP over 200km required a Nav on board!!??)
Still, at least one of the Navs obviously had his Nav Cat back by then!! Meow!
lsh