Ultralight Aircraft

[anxiouswannabe]

I've started looking at ultralights as a potentially cost effective way of getting my flying jollies. There just seems to be so many types and its difficult to evalute them all. A couple of questions for any "gurus" on this subject:

a) Who are the Cessnas and Pipers etc. of the ultralight world - i.e. tried, tested, solid designs etc. I'm looking for something that has been proven to be structurally sound, with passable handling qualities ...
b) Are there any publications that offer OBJECTIVE advice and reviews of the different types and manufacturers ?

Cheers

[coodem]

Not got any 1st hand experience, but after thinking about going down the same route as you, I would say the top 2 would be Jabiru and Europa.

[chevvron]

Cyclone AX3/2000 are robust and fun to fly, but not very fast. The structure is made out of triangular patterns to aid rigidity.
By the way, Europa is not very light, maybe not even ultralight; sure you didn't mean Eurostar?

[bar shaker]

At the budget end, it is the AX3 or X'Air.

Mid value is Sky Ranger and Rans

Upper mid: Thruster & Medway SLA (new and very nice), both factory built. Jabiru also fits in here.

Top end: Eurostar, C42, CT2K. The Eurostar is the Daddy.

Europas don't make the microlight regs.

[batninth]

I'm currently learning on an Ikarus C42. I tried a couple of trial flights on other GA types - a Cherokee & then a Robin 2160 (respectively OK & "Pretty Amazing") - then settled on learning on the Ikarus under an NPPL(M) ticket. I'm currently about 10 hours in and enjoying it.
I've used two different aircraft so far, both the 80hp C42, and they're robust & forgiving for my early attempts at this flying stuff and more importantly consistent in how they handle. The Rotax engine is also pretty easy to manage which makes life simpler. I'd certainly recommend learning on one.
Take a look at the C42 flight test write up on www.pilotweb.aero.
Good luck with your search
batninth

[Rans Flyer]

I'd like to add to barshakers list:

At the budget end, it is the thruster, AX3 or X'Air.

Mid value is Sky Ranger and Rans with 2-stroke engines.

Upper mid: Sky Ranger, Rans and Thrusters with 4-stroke engines. Medway SLA, and the Jabiru.

Top end: Eurostar, C42, CT2K , Eurostar and with it's 750mile plus range and 185mph cruise the 912S MCR ULC (Ban-Bi) is the Daddy.

A good place to find out prices is www.afors.co.uk

Rans.
(Happy to be Mid value)

[Rod1]

Apologies if I am insulting your intelligence.

Ultralight is a European term which is not used in the UK. We use microlight

If you have a group A license you cannot count hours flown in micros to your currency requirement. The best solution to this is to abandon the micro idea and go for a VLA. A VLA is often identical to a micro but has a higher takeoff weight. For example a Eurostar VLA is identical to a micro except it has an electric backup fuel pump and much better useful load. You can log hours in a VLA towards your group a currency as it is a group A aircraft.

Eurostar, Dyn Aero MCR01, Jab, Pioneer 300, CT42 are some examples, with speed range from 85 kn to 155 kn all on 80 – 100 hp.

Rod1

[London Mil]

Rod, can you get a CS-VLA version of the MCR range yet or do you still have to build it yourself?

[xrayalpha]

Hi,

You can't have a "factory-built" VLA since the PFA are only allowed to handle kit-built aircraft and the BMAA, while approved to process factory-built aircraft, can only handle microlights.

So, C42 Ikarus factory-built is a BMAA microlight, C42 Ikarus VLA iis a kit built and PFA.

Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't "series-built" kits out there - where basically you are the second legal owner, although the CAA are doing their best to stamp this out. they suspect the first owners are , basically, building to order.

Very best wishes,

Colin

[IO540]

Of course, that doesn't mean that there aren't "series-built" kits out there - where basically you are the second legal owner, although the CAA are doing their best to stamp this out. they suspect the first owners are , basically, building to order

This may be a stupid question, but what is wrong with that?

The person building to order has probably built a number of them and is thus generally going to do a much better job.

[London Mil]

xrayalpha, if you can't have a factory built VLA, what on earth is a Tecnam P2002JF/JR, a Tecnam P92, an AT3 Aero etc etc? I believe EASA call them CS-VLAs.

[Rod1]

IO540

The PFA permit exception from full factory approval for construction is based on the premise that the builder is building on an amateur basis. Kits have to be 51% built by the amateur for his use and education (was 500 hours until recently).

Any aircraft, which can be proved to be built on a professional basis, becomes a garden ornament. The only exception is distributors building demonstration aircraft, which is allowed.

There have been cases of kit manufacturers flying in competed aircraft and falsifying the build records, but this has not happened, to the best of my knowledge, for some time.

Rod1

[Rod1]

“Rod, can you get a CS-VLA version of the MCR range yet or do you still have to build it yourself?”

The PFA use CS-VLA as the design code for kit built VLA aircraft, so the code is used on both factory built and home built aircraft.

“You can't have a "factory-built" VLA since the PFA are only allowed to handle kit-built aircraft and the BMAA, while approved to process factory-built aircraft, can only handle microlights.”

It is true that the PFA cannot sanction a factory built VLA, but it is now approved to clear factory built microlights. The Tecnam P2002JF/JR is a C of A VLA, which is good, but you must maintain it using a licensed engineer cleared for the type.

It is unimportant if an aircraft is built in a factory, or in a garage, provided it has been inspected. There is no difference in the airworthiness requirements, it is just one is achieved by a regulated production facility and the other is achieved using the excellent PFA inspection system. If you are a group a pilot you are better off buying a VLA second hand with say 50 hours on it, than a Micro with much less useful load and no chance of counting the hours. The other advantage of the PFA system is you can maintain it yourself for a few £100 a year.

Rod1
(builder and owner of a VLA)

[Barshifter]

If its ultralights your after you cant beat a flexwing.Much more exciting!
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f84/Barshifter/FLEXWING.jpg

[xrayalpha]

Hi Rod1,

As you say - especially with the NPPL - there is, in many way, no real advantage in having a microlight version of many of these three-axis aircraft. The NPPL allows you a microlight-type cheap medical and light aircraft style loadings.

There are changes to the NPPL coming in - the regulatory impact assessment input time ends on April 2nd - which would allow any hours on one type of NPPL to count to reval another. Ie Microlight, Self-launched motor glider and Simple single engined aircraft.

However, none of these hours would really count towards a real JAR light aircraft licence! But they are just as fun.

And operating a permit to fly aircraft is far more affordable than a Tecnam on a CofA, which is what the original post was about.

ps. Although load is better on a PFA light aircraft version, the insurance is also more of a burden. The Zenair 601 as a light aircraft is costing one pal 900 a year for 3rd party, and the microlight version just 150 for another pal!

If you want to fly just one up, then you can have full tanks and luggage on the microlight version. It is just when you want to carry two people the microlight version is a bit difficult to be legal in.

Very best wishes, Colin

[tangovictor]

As you say - especially with the NPPL - there is, in many way, no real advantage in having a microlight version of many of these three-axis aircraft. The NPPL allows you a microlight-type cheap medical and light aircraft style loadings.
one advantage as I see it, NPPL wise, is, you can fly to Europe with a microlight, but not in an SEP, / VLA
so same airplane, say Eurostar, under 450, no probs, fly to most of Europe
same machine, but not the microlight version, sure you can legally carry more weight, but with an NPPL your restricted to UK only, although I believe you can ask the CAA for permission to fly further,

[anxiouswannabe]

Thanks for all the responses !

Barshifter : I had a fantastic flight in a flexwing trike a while back. It was by far the most exhilarating flying experience I've had. Unfortunately, after landing the instructor casually mentioned the steel plate holding his spine in place as a result of an accident in one. Kinda put me off :(

[Barshifter]

anxiouswannabe

Ive never landed one that hard.Accidents do happen but most can be avoided buy the survival training you recieve whilst training.Knowing when to fly and when to stay on the ground can play a big part in the outcome of your last landing of the day.Flexwings dont have the high wind capabilities of their 3 axis counterparts.Usually if you can handle them in winds on the ground then you will be ok in the air.

[WorkingHard]

If i fly say the C42 on my CAA licence am I not allowed to fly across to Europe and can I not log the hours as counting toward the annual numbers?

[IO540]

Rod1

You have explained the rules but that is a circular argument.

"I cannot drive up the M1 at more than 70 because the speed limit is 70...."

Am I right in suspecting the real reason for prohibiting "mass production" in the non-CofA scene is to limit the level of activity and thus support CAA CofA revenue?

I cannot see a rational argument as to why a flying machine like this cannot be factory built.

There is an argument that somebody who built his own plane is more entitled to kill himself in it than somebody who bought it from a factory, but that is a bit stretched. We all have a fundamental right to kill ourselves (accidentally) - otherwise there would be no mountain climbing, scuba diving, driving, walking, etc.

[tangovictor]

as said, NPPL licence, if you fly a microlight with a full PPL I have no idea, whats allowed or isn't

[Rod1]

IO540

“Am I right in suspecting the real reason for prohibiting "mass production" in the non-CofA scene is to limit the level of activity and thus support CAA CofA revenue?”

Pretty much yes! If you wanted to set up a production facility to build factory produced VLA aircraft it would cost you a lot of money in oversight from the CAA. You would have to pay for regular inspections after you had gained the initial approval etc.

The CAA sees the rules as protecting the investment made by the factories from unregulated amateurs setting up production lines. In practice it is hard to buy a kit, pay someone to build it and come out without the aircraft having cost you a very big sum. There was a production line at Kemble many years ago, which produced some Europa aircraft, but the price was rumoured to be £75k! If you have a factory, say in the Czech republic, producing aircraft for Europe, but with no chance of getting CAA approval, then you can make serious money. You sell completed aircraft, fly them in, store them for 3 months and then supply them with forged PFA paperwork. Because the production line is on an industrial scale and it is not building from an approved kit it is of course much cheaper to build, plus you have very cheap labour. The PFA have got much better at policing such attempts to pervert the rules.

If I could change the rules I would allow US stile build assist programs, but I do not know if this will ever happen.

Rod1

[Rod1]

WorkingHard

You can fly a C42 micro / or VLA version across Europe on a JAA or old CAA PPL no problem. You cannot count the hours flown in the Micro to your currency requirement, but you can in the VLA.

My comments above assumed the original question was from a JAA PPL or equivalent, witch makes the micro option much less sensible compared to the VLA route. If we bring the NPPL into it then the situation is much more complex. In theory you cannot fly a PFA aircraft outside UK airspace. In practice there are standing agreements with most of Europe, which removed this restriction. Individual pilots have started asking the French for permission to fly on NPPL A licences, and have been getting approval on a case by case basis. When the R/E NPPL comes out this will be recognised throughout Europe. This will again make the VLA route much more attractive for the NPPL holder compared with the micro option.

Rod1

[tangovictor]

When the R/E NPPL comes out this will be recognised throughout Europe. This will again make the VLA route much more attractive for the NPPL holder compared with the micro option.
Rod I agree with you, however when this happens, the microlight weight will also be altered, some say up to 600 or even 700. So why would the NPPL M be less attractive than the VLA ?
As the Microlights ( fixed wing ) will probably be the VLA's of the time

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thanks for all the responses !

Barshifter : I had a fantastic flight in a flexwing trike a while back. It was by far the most exhilarating flying experience I've had. Unfortunately, after landing the instructor casually mentioned the steel plate holding his spine in place as a result of an accident in one. Kinda put me off

Ah, but possibly in something with more energy, he simply wouldn't have survived the accident at-all!

G

[anxiouswannabe]

Point taken Genghis ...

[anxiouswannabe]

Thanks to all for the contributions to this thread. I have spent lots of time "googling" various manufacturers and products. I am curious if any of you have experience with the Australian "Airborne" trike series. I am particularily interested in their "Redback" - mostly because its low cost. Anybody care to offer an opinion on it or Airborne trikes in general ?

[Genghis the Engineer]

So far as I know, the only Australian trike currently approved in the UK is the Airborne Edge / Streak III. I've flown it a couple of times and my conclusion was

(1) Beautifully built
(2) Grossly overpriced
(3) Handles like a dog, especially at low speeds.

Don't get hung up on buying new - the UK has a very strong second hand market, and an airworthiness system that whilst a bit onerous, ensures that a second hand aircraft should (with a little care) be as safe and good as a new one. Try here (http://www.cfors.co.uk/afors/index.php?page=browse&cat=SALE&sec=FLEX&PHPSESSID=f9c21f295f39df549eb86a60911a3880) as a good starting point for second hand aircraft. There are a few Pegasus Qs on there - that has been an excellent first aeroplane for many flexwing pilots for example.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hard to be sure which of the aircraft you're looking at there is the one that interests you, but the answer is "probably not". Because microlights aren't subject to ICAO standards, there's no automatic international overflight permission.

The UK CAA will give you permission to fly a French registered aircraft, on your French microlight (ULM) licence, for up to a month per year. They won't allow prolonged operation.


BUT, at risk of repeating myself - the list of UK approved microlights is massive, the second hand market extremely healthy - there's huge amounts to choose from.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

If you keep it within 28 days per year in the UK, then no need to apply - just inform.

The rules are here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/AN52.pdf).

G