Canberra hours

[ciderman]

Just played golf with my old Canberra Nav. He's got 9500 hours on the Queen of the skies ( well he would think that wouldn't he?). Got us talking about who has the most both front and back now that she is retired. Terry Cairns? Any bids for the most on EE's finest?

[Jackonicko]

India retired theirs this month, too. And may have a contender for most hours, I would guess!

[ciderman]

Shall we restrict it to the UK?

[Wrathmonk]

Charlie Ole? Particularly when you consider he had a few years away from the Queen of the Skies. Don't think he had anywhere near 9500 'berra hours mind. But at least his were in the both the front and back - not bad as a nav ... ;)

[Worf]

Jackonicko,

The IAF Canberra's are not retired yet - May is supposed to be the official date.

The pilot I have found with the most number of hours in the Canberra has about 4500 hrs. Most early IAF Canberra pilots came to the type from either a fighter (usually Vampire/Ouragan/Hunter) tour or a multi tour (Dakota/C-119 Packet). First tourists were only taken on in the late 70s (direct from Hunter OCU/Iskra/Kiran). Some of IAF pilot had many hours on other types before the Canberra and didn't have as many Canberra hours as they could have if they had been first tourists. My father's FIS (equivalent to CFS in the RAF) instructor was operational in the Spitfire, Tempest, Vampire and then Canberra. Interestingly a large part of the early cadre came from B-24 Liberators.

The other factor is that the IAF doesn't have the RAF's equivalent of a "flying" cadre. Its up or out - you can't be a senior (in years) officer and be a line pilot on a flying squadron. Most people's flying was done by the time they are Squadron Leaders (rank inflation has now raised that to Wing Cdr) which was about 16-18 years in service. You continued to fly after that only if you were CO/OC Flying/Station Commander but that meant that you did a lot of ground postings in between.

The pilot with the most hours was a first tourist on the Canberra - did his entire career on Canberras as a line pilot/flight commander/unit commander and retired as Wg Cdr after 30 years service. In between he did a tour as an instructor on Kirans. But that career profile is unusual - he was also lucky/unlucky enough to be caught in the rank inflation where the COs of multi squadrons are now Gp Capts! He was acting Gp Capt when he retired.

Trying to figure out who the navigator with most hours was - but I would think that would be about the same number of hours too.

Worf

[mgdaviso]

anybody got WK127 in their log book?

[scorpion63]

Try Tony "Dusty" Miller, he's been flying them almost continously since 1967.
As for being retired, we have a very full season ahead with Canberra B2/6 WK163 with displays in the UK, Holland and Belgium as well as celebrating the 50th anniversary of her breaking the world alltitude record 28th August 1957 70,310 ft.

[LFFC]

WK127 - the fabulous TT18.

[DME MILOS]

I can feel an assymetric sock story rearing it's head....:{

[mgdaviso]

We've got the whole front of WK127 sat on our parade square....but no more information!

[threepointonefour]

Get a room ! :p

[Beeayeate]

ciderman
Terry Cairns would definitely be in the fore for most hours on Cranberries. But, does anybody here remember Sqn Ldr Bruce Bull? Surely he must be up there amongst the top few.

.

[Milt]

While we are at it - how about also the one/s with experience on the most variants of the Canberra ? And how many variants were there?

[larssnowpharter]

But, does anybody here remember Sqn Ldr Bruce Bull? Surely he must be up there amongst the top few.


I remember Bruce Bull and flew with him once from St Mawgan to Aldergrove probably in '72. Recollections a bit hazy but I think he had the most hours back then....4000?

[spud]

Worked with Bruce in the early nineties, what a gent.

[scorpion63]

I seem to remember he was known as "Rock ar*e" on account of the number of hours spent in the right hand seat of T4's. Last heard of at RAE Llanbedr flying meteors.

[spud]

He worked at Trent at Cranfield (later taken over by Cabair) teaching CPL/IR students having previously been at Oxford. As I remember, they finally retired him around 1992 by which time he was in his late 60's. Full of enthusiasm, a great instructor and of course his war stories really were war stories.

[ciderman]

Hi Guys,

The gent I was referrrin to with the huge number of hours is Bryan Stoat, ( 213 and others and laterally FRADU). It would be nice to get Terry Cairns to tell us how many he actually has. I remember my trap rides with Terry, usually a bundle of laughs after the serious stuff was done. Used to get awfully pissed with him at Raynham too!! Yes I, do remember Bruce Bull, he was on 7 Sqn at St Mawgan. Alex Wedderburn must have a few in the back of the old girl too.

Cheers.

[Jackonicko]

How many variants?

What - in proper UK service?

I make it 23 with their own 'variant designation', though there were others - like the Elint B2s used by 192 Squadron, the recce-modded B2s used on Op Robin, etc. the B2 and B6 samplers, etc.

B2 - original bomber
B2T - one off with Decca, last with 100 Squadron?
B2E - ex-Boscombe, once fitted out for single seat operation (WK162, or 164?)
PR3 - original recce, usually two crew but three ejection seats???
T4 - trainer
B6 - bomber with integral wing tanks triple breech starters, bigger Avons, etc.
B6(BS) - as above with Blue Shadow, mainly for 109/139 Sqns, designation also used by B6 Mod
B6 Mod - four modified B6/B6(BS) for 51 Squadron for Elint role. Additional tail warning receivers, Elint antennas in nose, which initially followed 'normal' contours, before addition of T11 type nose, and finally extended rounded nose radome. Blue Shadow fitted. Three crew.
B(I)6 - as B6 with provision for gun pack in rear part of bomb bay, underwing hardpoints, LABS gear as standard. Three crew???
PR7 - recce version with integral wing tanks triple breech starters, bigger Avons, etc. Usually two crew but three ejection seats???
B(I)8 - interdictor/strike derivative of B6 with offset 'fighter type canopy' (non-opening) nav on rumble seat for take off, or sideways facing at forward plotting table or prone in the nose. Provision for gun pack (4 x 20mm Hispano) in rear part of bomb bay, underwing hardpoints, LABS gear as standard.
PR9 - recce version with opening offset 'fighter type canopy' for access, nav on ejection seat in front of pilot in sideways hinged nose, with frangible panel above. Powered ailerons.
U10 - drone conversion of B2
T11 - crew trainer for Javelin crews converted from B2, with AI radar in extended conical nose, long pitot boom on port wingtip. Did it have dual controls and an ejection seat for both pilots???
D14 - drone conversion of B2 with PR9 type powered controls
B15 - Converted B6 for the Akrotiri Strike Wing and 45 Squadron, Decca Doppler, underwing hardpoints for unguided rockets, and later Nord AS30 ASMs.
E15 - calibration conversion of B15
B16 - Converted B6 for the Akrotiri Strike Wing with Blue Shadow SLAR. (Did this supplant one of the rear crew ejection seats? Was this a two-crew aircraft?)
T17 - EW training conversion of B2, extended bulbous nose and numerous antenna fairings, scoops, etc. Long pitot boom on port wingtip.
T17A - Further conversion of T17, with new kit (externally identifiable by new underwing blade antennas
TT18 - Target towing conversion of B2 with underwing Rushton winches, extra window in starboard fuselage to allow nav to see starboard winch.
T19 - Silent target conversion of T11 with radar replaced by 'Blue Circle'.
T22 - Conversion of PR.Mk 7 with Buccaneer radar in extended nose. Intended as Buccaneer radar trainer for observers, but used as silent target.

[scorpion63]

Plus the SC9 modification of PR9, the B2TT a B2 with single hook on the back and WK163 designated B2/6 to add to the list.

[Jackonicko]

B2TT is an unofficial designation, as is B2/6. 163 was a B2 - officially - later becoming a B6.

The SC9 was never in 'proper' service - otherwise you'd add the A1 (four prototypes) and B5.

And wasn't SC9 a Shorts company designation, and not a variant designator?

[spectre150]

rumble seat

Wasn't it a Rhumbold seat? It doesnt really matter all these years - I left the Canberra force in 1982 but I was just curious. Happy to be corrected.

[scorpion63]

WK163 is officially designated B Mk 2/6 in the aircraft documents both civil and military (F700) and all the approvals and releases are for that mark of Canberra from the day it was modified at Pershore. It was never in "proper service" with the RAF so does that make it a non existant type?
The SC9 designation for XH132 must list as a sub type as it retained it's military seriel during all of it's life. Incidentally the PR9 has a powered rudder as well as ailerons.

[Jackonicko]

It was. Sorry. My brain was as rusty as my own Canberra experience - which, coincidentally, dates back to 1979-82.

I was chatting to my Dad about Canberras, and find that between us we have the A1, B2, PR3, T4, B6, PR7, B(I)8, E15, T17, TT18 and T19 in our logbooks.

[Beeayeate]

Jacko
Really impressed by your listing of Canberra variants, good one. If that was all from memory - respect. :)

There's an illustrated list of all basic Canberra types here (http://www.bywat.co.uk/types01.html) for those interested. (A second page has an illustrated list of all foreign users).

PR.3 had two seats. Only two complete examples of this variant remain - WE139 at Hendon and WF922 at the Midland Air museum, Coventry Airport. Unlike WE139 at Hendon, WF922 is fully accessible as well as having working hyd/elect systems, cameras and a 'winking'n'blinking' cockpit. Well worth a visit.

One point, the B(I)8 wasn't a derviative of the B(I)6. B(I)6 was produced as an intrim variant because B(I)8 production took so long getting underway.

Agree with you regarding scorpion63's additions. If you count those you'd have to add all the myriad individual variations operated by the Establishments. And yes, SC9 was a Shorts designation.

.

[Jackonicko]

Scorpion,

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough.

Firstly, the SC9 designation is not a mark number. SC isn't a role designator like B-for-bomber or PR-for-Photo Reconnaissance. It was the SC9 in just the same way that the Belfast C.Mk 1 was the SC5. Nor was the aircraft ever in 'proper UK service' (by which I meant RAF/RN and not MoD(PE) or RAE/RRE).

:8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8 :8

Secondly, there was no MAR for a B.Mk 2/6 meaning that the designation is unofficial, in just the way that the B6RC and PR16 designations sometimes applied to 51's Canberras (and seen on some of the relevant record cards) were unofficial, and in just the way that the RAE/RRE B6/8 hybrids probably laboured under a host of unofficial and semi-official designations. And again, WK163 was never in 'proper UK service'.

Beeayeeight,

It was from memory, because my Canberra books are in my archive/store at the mo, which is why I couldn't recall or look up how many seats the PR3 had, nor the B(I)6, nor the PR7, nor the B6BS, nor the B16.

It might also explain how I missed an RAF Canberra variant designation! (Wonder if anyone will spot it?)

I thought that the B(I)8 was derived from the B6 (big Avons, integral tanks, etc), but with the new nose and gunpack. I hadn't meant to suggest that it was derived from the B(I)6.

[Jackonicko]

I s'pose you could argue that the 6, 7 and 8 were all derived from the B5, in that the B5 was the first with big Avons and integral tanks.....

[green granite]

RAE (MOD(PE)) Canberra line up

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=109932

One of WK163

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=109933

[spectre150]

Jacko, how bizarre - I did a double take when i read your post as I could have written it myself (my father and I also share similar experience).

I had the pleasure of serving with 100 Sqn 80-83. Logbook monthly summaries were a pain though with all those different marks,

[Bob Wyer]

Both marks had 3 man crews, Cyprus and Tengah, also 213 in Germany.

However B16 only had 2 ejection seats, and the observers who sat on the Rhumbold seats invariably were the larger / taller Sqn members

[Jackonicko]

Thanks Bob,

Just found a loose page from an AP4326L in a pile of stuff awaiting filing, and it says that the T11 had a crew of four - instructor, nav instructor and two pupil navs or one pupil nav, and one pupil pilot.

Presumably it had four bang seats?

Did it have dual controls? And radar displays front and back?

[Jackonicko]

Can any of our older Canberra chaps confirm that early T4s didn't have ejection seats?

In his piece "Flying on 527 Squadron" at

http://www.rafwatton.info/album/swift/swift1.html

Ralph Swift said:

"The Watton Canberra‘s were B2’s and had ejection seats for the single pilot and both navigators but in both cases it was a requirement to get rid of an explosive canopy prior to ejection. In the case of the training Canberra, the T4, although the navigators had ejection seats the cramped cockpit for both pilots did not afford enough room for ejection seats and the only way out for the pilots was to slide the right hand seat backward, open the side door in the fuselage and bale out conventionally. In a situation that required the pilots to abandon the aircraft it was a very hit and miss affair and when the Canberra later had a problem with runaway tailplane actuators I think it proved impossible to get out in the time available."

Also, in an August 1994 copy of 'Aeroplane Monthly', Flt Lt Mike Retallack, describing going through Canberra Conversion with 231 OCU in 1955 at Bassingbourn, said:

"The aircraft for this first flight was a T.4 trainer, which at that time did not have ejection seats for the pilots, so it was much easier to get in compared with later versions, especially for the navigator, as the instructor's seat slid along rails."

[Worf]

All IAF T.4s did not have ejection seats for the pilots. They had one for the navigator. If you go to the Bharat-rakshak site and search for "canberra book" you will be able to get my article on IAF Canberra trainer versions with details.

Seems likely the IAF T.4s were based on the early RAF T.4 design (unlikely the IAF had the ejections seats that were part of the base design taken out)
Worf

[spectre150]

I never ejected from a Canberra but twice had the canopy jettison circuit fire - luckily both on the ground. Both incidents were finger trouble I hasten to add.

Interesting that the early T4s did not have bang seats for the pilots. The thread reminded me of the rather Heath Robinson arrangement of having to swing the right hand pilots seat forward so that I could climb into the back hole that was the bak of the Canberra trainer, and then have the seat swung back and latched into position.

[Beeayeate]

Worf
Seems likely the IAF T.4s were based on the early RAF T.4 design (unlikely the IAF had the ejections seats that were part of the base design taken out)

Thanks for that Worf, have actually been to that site previously (good Canberra articles).

The IAF received the first two of their T.4s on Dec 1958 (ex-RAF diverted off contract, serials XK647 & XK650). If I read you right, this would mean that the T.4 did not have pilot's bang seats for at least 3.5 years! (Flt Lt Mike Retallack, ref to 1955 - see Jacko's post #32). And this after the prototype first flew in June 1952. That makes around six or so years of flying for T.4s without pilot's ejection seats. Or was it only some of them?

In any case, surely someone must remember that curious fact!

.

[Oblique96]

Could not see date of photo of MOD(PE) lineup, but during 72-75 at RAE Farnborough, we had a heavily modded B(I)8.

Used to have fun arriving at any RAF airfield on a visit, on board a T4 or B(I)6, to dismount and watch the eyes of the groundcrew widen when they realised that the cab had been modded for single crew (pilot that is :O) operation. From memory, all that was needed was the re-positioning of a couple of switches to the front end.
Incidentally, they tended to have a better nav. fit than most operational Canberras - VOR and Decca, to name 2, - in addition to the usual.

[Worf]

The IAF retired it's Canberras on May 11th, 2007 after 50 years of service. Photos and a report of the event can be found here
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Special/AirfieldVisits/Canberras-Retire/

Worf

[Hipper]

So, how did you get four crew in a Canberra?

Just been to the National Archives, Kew looking at 15 squadron records from 1956. Canberra B2 WD980 on at least one occassion had a Captain, 1st Pilot, Plotter and Observer on board for a three hour flight (Honington to Lindholme).

[Bob Wyer]

Easy peasy, Pilot on Ejection Seat, 2 navs in back on Ejection Seats, 4th crew member, with chest parachute, on Rhumbold Seat next to pilot, still room in nose!!!

[27mm]

98 Sqn Cottesmore, operating E15s in the Calibration role. Airframe nos were WD944 (T4), WH981, WH983 and WJ756 - can't recall the others. Typical sortie to cal an airfield approach radar would involve the crew plus 2 Flight Checkers (1 on the Rumbold seat). Transit to the relevant airfield, land and drop off the Checkers. Cal sortie, then land, turn-round the jet and scoff the cabin-trunk sized packed lunch. Further cal sortie, land, engines running pick up of the Checkers, then RTB Rutland for Ruddles finest. 4 trips and approx 5 hours flying for the day in a Classic Jet. Halcyon days.

[Jackonicko]

That was legal. Five up wasn't!

But did it ever happen? :E

[Bob Wyer]

Who mentioned legality? Similar sort of topic as "How many 11 gallon kegs of beer will fit in a Vulcan's pressure cabin?":=

[keithl]

Isn't anybody going to mention Durbs' 4-up groundstrike?

...Oh. Well I won't then.

[Tim Mills]

Goodness, what a wealth of information and load of experience with 'the queen of the skies' here. Makes my 1200 odd hours and only four varients, T4, B2, B15 and 16, look very hum drum, but I have to say, very enjoyable.

But I was very impressed with the site mentioned by Beeayeate, 11 April, with all the variants, and the foriegn users. I was specially interested in the German aircraft, and delighted to see that 9935 is still looking good. After leaving Her Majesties employ I had a couple of enjoyable years flying those aircraft on photo survey and radar calibration flights, out of Cologne/Bonn. In my time we had a couple of English pilots, with German Luftwaffe navigator/photo operators, until eventually ex Luftwaffe pilots took over from us. I notice that I flew D9567 back from Decimommanu on 30Nov76, and flew it again as 9935 on 17Dec67 on radar calibration. Interesting job, and good mates.

[Citizen Fish]

My Dad claims:-

3627 hours and flew:-

Conversion Unit: B2, PR3, T4, PR7, PR9, TT18, T19 and T22. [Note: the T22 was borrowed from the R Navy for a special task from Wyton]

[Padhist]

I can't compete on this basis. But I might have a chance on 'How many automatic landings performed' on the Canberra.

At BLEU I always considered the Canberra as the most impressive aircraft to demonstrate this. What a pity it never entered service, might have saved some lives!!!

[GK430]

Canbera help - as you are the officionados, can you help identify these types please? They were photographed between 1953-56 and apologies for the reproduction.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/Emirates/WE137Canberra.jpg
Were external tanks common?
And what does the P signify below? Prototype?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/Emirates/WD833.jpg
The one below is either WH713 or WD952 and photographed at Filton
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/Emirates/Olympus.jpg

[l.garey]

I only just saw your post dated June 2007. Maybe someone has already identified the Canberras you ask about, but just in case:
WE137 is an early PR3 (tip tanks were often carried).
WD933 is the B2 Sapphire test-bed, hence the P for Prototype.
Both WH713 and WD952 were B2 Olympus test beds used at Filton. Your photo is I think of WH713, as WD952 had the standard black and grey bomber colours. WD952 was the holder of the world altitude record in 1953.

[polecat2]

27mm

Have just found this thread on account of it being bumped up to the top, and can remember 98 Sqdn's other Canberra E15s as WH948, WH957, WH964 and WH972. There was also WH973, but it crashed on approach during night flying shortly after I arrived on the squadron in 1971 (Crew ejected safely).

I can remember these because I provided the references for the Modeldecal sheet for WH957, to be used on the Airfix Canberra.

I was a Corporal Electrician on 98 from 1971 until it disbanded in 1976 and before that was on 16 Sqdn with B(I)8s at Laarbruch.

Loved those Canberras. A couple of years or so ago one flew over where I live. Nearly stood to attention and saluted it!

Polecat

[wrymouth1]

I remember WH973 crashing at Cottesmore. I was instructing on 231 OCU at the time and was SFSO as well. I have a piece of the control column on my desk !!

[philrigger]

;)

I was a member of the crash and smash team from 71 MU, RAF Bicester that recovered the remains of Canberra WJ674 (231 OCU) in early Aug 73. It came to rest in a field just East of the A1 on the approach to RAF Cottesmore. We had to dig up the engines as they were completely buried. IIRC the crew ejected safely.

My how time passes.





'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[sycamore]

Anyone know what happened to the PR3/5/7 that was at Bedford and`loaned` to the IAF in about `73/4` for hi-alt `wx research`?

[Peter Carter]

I'm pretty sure WJ 674 crashed at night during a practice asymmetric approach and killed the pilot (John Dennis?); the nav ejected safely. However, I stand ready to be corrected!

[rej]

I spent a very enjoyable 3 1/2 years in air traffic control at Wyton in the late 80s/early 90s. I was fortunate enough to amass just over 130 hours of pax flying in TT18s/E15s/B2s and a T4.

During that time I flew with some great people like the SBO, W+9, Zoot, Bad Boy and Grubs to name but a few. To the aircraft and lads on the Ton - thank you for making the early days of my career so much fun.

When I look through my log book that I managed to blag from the nice ladies in SPFS it is tough seeing some names of those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice. RIP chaps.

Ekaton

[Green Flash]

Was there not a Canberra flying on the Met Research Flight at Bedford? I understand it had a total hyd failure but the crew got it back on the runway where it was declared a write off. Believe it was replaced by Snoopy?

[XV208 SNOOPY]

Green Flash,
note quite. MRF got its first Canberra in 1957, a B2 WJ582. Around this time it also had briefly WE146, WE147 and WH952. The original aircraft was replaced in 1963 by WE173 for high altitude weather research. After modification, this aircraft had its first sortie for MRF on 7 Apr 64, but this was grounded 31 Mar 81 due to government cut backs. :sad:

Snoopy entred RAF service as a standard C Mk1 in 1966 with 48 Sqn in the FEAF at Changi. She was modified by Marshalls 1971-2 and first flew in the WMk2 guise on 21 Mar 73. Last flight MRF operational was 29 Mar 01, returning from Norway where she had been conducting research on Arctic ice.
:ugh::ugh::(

She is now back at Cambridge being used as the flying test bed for the engines for the Airbus A400M.

[Mercury Rising]

MRF were never based at Bedford. Originally formed from the High Altitude Flight at Boscombe Down moving to Farnborough in the mid-1940s and then to Cranfield as FAAM about 7 years ago.

[Samuel]

WORF, do you know what happened to the ex-RNZAF B12s- were they scrapped or are they still parked somewhere?

[longer ron]

I'm pretty sure WJ 674 crashed at night during a practice asymmetric approach and killed the pilot (John Dennis?); the nav ejected safely. However, I stand ready to be corrected! 8th April 2008 16:30

Yes you are correct Peter...I was a rigger on 231ocu at that time,from memory it was a Staff Nav (Max M ?) whom istr felt the a/c roll and buffet - called eject to the student.
He thought the pilot had ejected safely and I think landed near the 'The Fox' on the A1 and 'popped in' for a drink (who could blame him)
Unfortunately the a/c had either rolled too far or was too low for a safe ejection for the pilot,comparatively slow ejection sequence on a canberra.We were all absolutely gutted by it.

[L J R]

I know that this has been covered on another Thead on PPRUNE, but the in the month that the first USAF casualty of 'GW-1' has been idnetified and repatriated, the Last Aussy MIA in Vietnam (RAAF 2 Sqn Canberra Crew) was also 'found' and laid to rest

Flt Off Michael Herbert (Pilot) & PltOff Robert Carver (Navigator)

...apologies for the thread creep - but those who follow the history of the Canberra, please not forget the contribution to low level bombing / CAS that 2 Sqn and their 'Magpies' made to the Vietnam conflict.

A Purveyor of the history of the jet might find that the RAAF dropped more tonnage 'for real' than any other organisation in the Canberra.- Can't comment on the 'Yield' however...!:cool:

'The unit flew a total of 11,963 sorties during the war.'

The RAAF Canberra in Vietnam (http://www.b-57canberra.org/raaf.htm)

No. 2 Squadron - The Royal Australian Air Force in Vietnam (http://airwarvietnam.com/raafno2.htm)

[sled dog]

XV208 , ref your post #56
You stated that Snoopy joined 48 sqn at Changi in 1966, but at that time 48 sqn flew Hastings ( i was in FEAF at the time ).
Are you referring to a Canberra or a Hastings ?
Happy memories of FEAF, in my opinion THE posting of that era.

[greywings]

Dear All, many thanks for this interesting trip down memory lane. I had the great pleasure of flying with 360 squadron late 60's / early 70's, and was interested to see Alex Wedderburn's name mentioned earlier in this thread. Does anyone have contact information for him that could be shared?

Also, I was lucky enough to fly regularly with Dinty Moore and Alex Ford, though haven't heard them mentioned for many years.

I loved the Canberra, and really enjoyed my 15 hour conversion at Bassingbourn. Having just returned from seven months at sea in Ark Royal, I was very out of touch with what was going on in the UK at that time (summer '68). So, imagine my surprise, when on a GCA into Bassingbourn, a Spitfire and Me 109 flew over the top of me. No, I had not entered a time-warp (though I thought I had), merely just seen two of the aircraft used in the filming of the 'Battle of Britain' flying overhead.

Those were the days!

Lots of 'navigation training' trips to Cyprus and Malta, and 'good relations' with the customs chaps on our return.

What a great time to be in the Services.

GW

[Wander00]

GW

We must have overlapped at least on 360 - I was there Oct 66- Summer 89, and having been grounded by the medics I was station (Watton) Project Officer for the move of the squadrons to Cottesmore

[greywings]

Wander00, that is more than likely. Watton was a blast but I recall Cottesmore being lots of fun, too, especially having breakfast in transport cafes in Mess Kit, after Mess Dinners!

Not sure one is allowed to do that sort of thing these days!!

GW

[BSweeper]

I flew Canberras from 1975-79 and one of the pilots I had the pleasure of flying with was Sqn Ldr ("gentleman") Jim Cox - certainly one of the best pilots I ever flew with (and there were a lot). I am sure he celebrated 4000hrs in Canberras (he was an ex leader of the 4 ship Canberra aerobatic team). The Boss was on the tarmac with a celebratory bottle bubbly with the Staish at the time, when Jim broke into the circuit and proceeded to do an immaculate Canadian Break - Boss went red but no words were said!!

He once demonstrated that to me coming back from the Orkneys at 2000ft after a JMC mission, when I was stood next to him (I was only 5' 5"). I'll show you my Canadian Break he said. Right ho I said, I'll strap in. No need he said, just watch the G-meter, it'll go from 1g to 1.3g, back to 1g, then down to .75g, and then back to 1g. And it did exactly that! You could have put a cup of coffee on the coaming, it was that smooth.

I did Bruce Bull's last IR (and flight in the RAF) in a Canberra with Jim. After demonstrating the standard asymmetric approach procedure, he asked Jim if he had passed, which of course he had (Bruce was an outstanding pilot), and then demonstrated what he would really do if faced with an engine out. This was essentially to come in fast (150kt - faster than the safety speed, to which you normally reduced below, at 600 feet - which meant you were committed to land) and at 300ft, dump the throttle, put down the flaps at the appropriate time and land - thereby never having the degree of asymmetric thrust problem using the other method.

I always remember sitting in the back of a practice asymmetric to land one night when the pilot announced - "ball in the middle, on the glidepath , 600ft - my decision is to land" and at 300ft, "I don't think we are going to make it". My right hand was descending fast when the QFI/IRE said "don't eject I think we can get the other one in time"!! For those not acquainted with the Canberra, I think its probably true to say more people were killed practising asymmetics than those for real.

Just for the record, my first flight at St Mawgan was in WK 127 -Jul 1 1976. The T19 could carry four people, and often did for ferries and rangers. It was so slippery it could make Gibraltar with 3000lbs of fuel less than the heavier TT18.

Happy days.

[Strobin Purple]

rej - I'm still here! I know who you are, seem to remember a pool cue fight in Elgin on a JMC?

From my 100 Sqn mid to late 80s days main contenders would've been W+9, D Tut the SBO, Soapy Watson or Nick Petts. All of them then had tales from the 50s that made your eyes water so would've been flying the Canberra for donkey's. Soapy, a fine gent, gets my bet. Any one know whether he or the SBO are still around?

Many great memories, mainly based around JMCs, rangers to Europe and Cyprus APCs:

Coming back from Cyp with Bill Viv AKA 'Primrose' (RIP) in one of the oldest B2s bottling out at around FL530 with still a decent ROC on - no pressure jerkins see?

Getting intercepted by Greek F5s on a FIR route without Gr dip clear and swapping international 'you are to follow me and land' hand signals.

SBO starting the escape/tunnelling committee at Macrahanish!

Happy days

SP

[Worf]

Samuel,

The RNZAF B.12s & T.13s are all scrapped.

Here is what one of my sources had to say
"The B-12 and the T-13 were operated only by 35 squadron till Dec 1977. When
the squadron converted to EW role, the B-12 and T-13 were moved around and
saw service in 16 Squadron and finally in 6 Squadron. The T-13 got phased
out in 1989, along with a host of other Canberra following the fatal
accident of F-1020 at Pune. The reason was that the C of Inquiry wrongly
deduced Canberra structural failure of the fin, when in fact the fin was
found intact in the debris."

One T.13 was used by the Test Pilot School in Bangalore and it was scrapped as well.

Worf

[flown-it]

Greywings, Wander00 and others have mentioned names and events from 360 Sqdn at Watton. :) Happy days!:)
13 of us Dark Blues arrived to form 360 only to find the T17s had not been hatched. The light blue cranberry squadron (98?) and Dark Blue 831 were disestablished to form 360. Those T4s did have bang seats to answer a question posed some time back.
So time on our hands filled by lots of rides in the T4s, lots of cards and uckers and even a ride to Nice in a Varsity with K.S. (crab who did an exchange with 849 A flt )
Victorious, Ark Royal and the other grey funnel flat tops were an amazing experience but the Officers mess Club on a weekend was hard to beat!:)

[Milt]

What happened to B8 WT364 when it left Boscombe Down?

Here is extract from memoirs.

The RAF carried out its hot weather trials from Idris airfield south of Tripoli, in Libya. Fighter aircraft ferried to Idris from Boscombe Down were always accompanied by another aircraft, usually a Canberra. I set off with Jock Cowan as my navigator in B8 Canberra WT364 on 13 October, my 30th birthday. We escorted a Swift, via Malta, for an overnight and then on to Idris the next day. We left the Swift at Idris and next day set off on a direct flight back to Boscombe Down via Tangmere.

I climbed out of Idris to about 42,000 ft and pushed the aircraft along just under buffet at 0.84 Indicated Mach Number (IMN). We were over flat cirro-stratus cloud. The sun seemed very bright and filled the cockpit with brilliant light. My eyes were squinting, even under the dark visor of the helmet. I began to lose focus with my eyes, particularly around the centre of my vision. Slowly a blank spot of vision grew in size and it became intriguing to look directly at an instrument and not be able to see it. Peripheral vision also grew a little fuzzy and I became concerned with the extent of the deterioration of vision. The Navigator was quick to share my concern.

We both knew that I would have to do an instrument descent into Tangmere. How could I do this if I couldn't read the instruments? I was forced to slow the aircraft away from compressibility buffet and tried the effects of 100 per cent oxygen. We called for actual weather conditions over France, in case I would need to make a visual let-down and landing. Our point of no return became important as we did not want to get into a position where we would have to eject, being unable to see adequately to do an instrument descent.

Thinking the glare from the sun, reflecting from the cloud beneath, may be affecting my eyes, I closed my eyes for periods and then only opened my right eye to quickly check aircraft attitude. Twenty minutes of this treatment resulted in some improvement to both eyes, but particularly the left. Soon after we crossed the coast of France near Marseille and the cirro-stratus gave way to a darker layer of alto-stratus. Slowly my vision recovered enough for me to have confidence in doing the let down into Tangmere.

I didn't really want to go via Tangmere. This was for purposes of customs clearance and I knew that, for special purposes, there was a resident customs officer in Salisbury. Consequently, I declared a Pan emergency, describing deteriorated vision from high altitude glare. This information was quickly advised to the Institute of Aviation Medicine at Farnborough. By the time I had landed at Boscombe, there were three Aviation medicine doctors en route. The subsequent eye examination and debreif was very thorough.

There had been previous reports/complaints by pilots subjected to glare but none quite as serious as mine. A darker visor was already under consideration and my experience caused its production and issue to be fast tracked. My eyes took about two weeks to return to normal.

[Bill Macgillivray]

All early T4's had an ejection seat for the nav. and two "normal" and uncomfortable saets for student pilot and QFI. Can't remember when they were modded. to "bang" seats in the front - early 60's I think. PR3 and 7 aircraft only had two ejection seats - pilot and nav. Third crew if reqd. sat on the dreaded "rumble" seat next to pilot or, after T/O, went to sleep on the more comfortable "couch" in the nose! Great aircraft and great days!!:ok:

[Wander00]

I wonder if Flownit remembers the time our oldest B2 on 360, WD935 went to Germany for a weekend land-away with an all Navy crew. The aircraft was still painted in the old Bomber Command black and grey. So this aircraft looking 10 years out of date lands with an all Navy crew - so the Plods thnk they have nicked the aircraft and arrest the three of them. All got sorted in the end. I flew WD935 on, I think, its last flight when we delivered it to Wroughton

[LuceG]

If you have any further information about this accident please could you contact me? The pilot was my step-dad. He crashed the week before my sister turned two. We would love any information you might have! John was apparently too low for a successful ejection.

I was a member of the crash and smash team from 71 MU, RAF Bicester that recovered the remains of Canberra WJ674 (231 OCU) in early Aug 73. It came to rest in a field just East of the A1 on the approach to RAF Cottesmore. We had to dig up the engines as they were completely buried. IIRC the crew ejected safely.

My how time passes.





'We knew how to whinge but we kept it in the NAAFI bar.'

[LuceG]

please see above, if you have any further information please do let me know! You are quite right, John died but his navigator ejected safely.

I'm pretty sure WJ 674 crashed at night during a practice asymmetric approach and killed the pilot (John Dennis?); the nav ejected safely. However, I stand ready to be corrected!

[LuceG]

Any further information on this tragedy would be soo amazing! The pilot, John Dennis, was my step father. He died the week before my sister turned two. Our mum (John’s wife) Michèle died in 2012 and we have very little information about the accident or people who knew John. Any link would be amazing!
Yes you are correct Peter...I was a rigger on 231ocu at that time,from memory it was a Staff Nav (Max M ?) whom istr felt the a/c roll and buffet - called eject to the student.
He thought the pilot had ejected safely and I think landed near the 'The Fox' on the A1 and 'popped in' for a drink (who could blame him)
Unfortunately the a/c had either rolled too far or was too low for a safe ejection for the pilot,comparatively slow ejection sequence on a canberra.We were all absolutely gutted by it.

[longer ron]

Hi Luce
Sorry I cannot really add much more info,I was a rigger (Airframe Fitter) on 231 OCU at the time but I was not 'on shift' at the time of the accident.
AFAIK the training sortie went as planned until the turn onto final approach to Cottesmore,the RAF at that time still had OCU students doing 'Solo' Assymetric sorties (practice assymetric meant that one of the 2 engines would have been throttled back to idle),after some accidents in the 1970's - this was later changed to only doing practice assymetric sorties with a QFI (qualified flying instructor) on board.
The ejection sequence on Canberras was fairly 'slow' in that upon initiating ejection both the navigators hatch and the pilots canopy were jettisoned (using explosive bolts) and only then could the seat 'fire' out of the aircraft,the canberra (being a first generation jet) had older type ejection seats which did not have rocket packs,therefore any ejections had to be inside the seat limits (ie above a certain height/speed and less than a certain descent rate).
Max Murray was a very experienced 'Staff' Navigator on 231 OCU and one of his roles was to accompany OCU students on their 'solo' trips (the canberra needed 2 crew members on board) ,at some stage on the final approach he realised that the aircraft was getting into an irrecoverable situation (probably buffeting and rolling towards the idling engine) and called 'eject' to the pilot,max ejected safely and thought that John had also got out ok as he saw his parachute start to deploy, unfortunately the aircraft had either rolled too far and/or got too low and slow for a succesful parachute deployment.
The importance of my 'rolled too far' comment is related to the fact that the seat needed an upward trajectory to maintain enough height for the parachute to deploy successfully,if the aircraft had rolled onto its side at low altitude then the seat would not have had the all important upward trajectory.
Please not - that is all from memory - it was a long time ago.

regards LR

[MMHendrie1]

Hi Luce.
I am sorry to hear of your family's loss. This is from Page 26, 'Winged Warriors - The Cold War from the Cockpit':
"In 1973 the Officers' Mess was crammed and my course lived in tiny rooms in a wooden hut about two hundred yards from the Mess. My Flight Commander was my former flight commander, Dickie Lees. During groundschool the reality of our chosen careers struck home. A lecture from one of the staff navigators was interupted and he was told that he was required to fly that night replacing a navigator who had reported sick. That evening the news spread that a Canberra had crashed and the crew had ejected. Our lecturer had been taken to hospital but his pilot, John Dennis, had been killed. During a night simulated asymetric overshoot, control had been lost and although the crew ejected, by the time the pilot's ejection seat operated, the aircrfat was already rolling fast and was almost inverted; there was insufficient height for John's parachute to deploy. The navigator thankfully only suffered compression fractures of the spine which were typical injuries caused by the older type of ejection seat fitted to the Canberra."
I was on the course immediately after John. I had seen him around, but we hadn't met. As I recall, he was a former Vulcan co-pilot converting onto the Canberra (perhaps after a ground tour as an Ops Officer?). He was crewed, I think, with a first-tour navigator who had reported sick on the day in question, hence the need for a replacement navigator. Max Murray was the only one available. He understood the situation but was midly irritated as he had planned to go out that evening with his wife. Later that evening, as I went into the Mess, I heard about the accident. It was very sobering. I was a first-tourist pilot and had yet to fly my first sortie in a Canberra. Night practice asymetric by students was removed from the syllabus after John's accident.
My first asymetric for real came six months later - and it was at night.
It's nearly fifty years since John's tragic loss. Since then, I've driven up and down the A1 hundreds of times. Whenever I pass The Fox, I remember that night. I always will.
Best wishes,
Paul

[DaveReidUK]

I flew WD935 on, I think, its last flight when we delivered it to Wroughton

Possibly some crossed wires here - WD935 ended its days at the St Athan scrappie, though the nose section was spared and survives to this day at the South Yorkshire Air Museum, Doncaster (happily under cover).

It may have been roaded to St A from Wroughton, but that seems a tad unlikely.

[LuceG]

Hi, John Dennis, the pilot of WH973 was my step-dad. He does the well before my sister turned two. Do you remember anything else about him or the accident? Is there any chance that there are any other pieces of John’s Canberra?
I remember WH973 crashing at Cottesmore. I was instructing on 231 OCU at the time and was SFSO as well. I have a piece of the control column on my desk !!

[Prangster]

May I offer up the name of Mike Brook as an hours contender he frequently mutters on about the Canberra following around like a faithful dog, he did the whole lot from squadron pilot through to trapper and then flew many marks as a test pilot etc

[Sldm]

Peter , longer Ron and Paul, thank you so much for remembering my father John Dennis’s tragic accident nearly 50 years ago . I am so pleased The navigator ejected successfully . It sounds like it was hard to get out of an ejection (from older type of ejection seats ) without some sort of injury if you did manage to get out of the Canberra- which sounds very tricky
It also sounds terrifying to have gone on the course after such an incident and to make those sort of manoeuvres afterwards . I am really pleased that Night practice asymetric by students was removed from the syllabus after John's accident.


What brave souls you all are .
Incidentally John was the same age my son is now, really just a boy .

if anyone knew him personally I would really welcome a contact

[longer ron]

Peter , longer Ron and Paul, thank you so much for remembering my father John Dennis’s tragic accident nearly 50 years ago . I am so pleased The navigator ejected successfully . It sounds like it was hard to get out of an ejection (from older type of ejection seats ) without some sort of injury if you did manage to get out of the Canberra- which sounds very tricky

Incidentally John was the same age my son is now, really just a boy .

if anyone knew him personally I would really welcome a contact

Hi Sldm
Welcome to the forum and with a really nicely written post.
Yes the early ejection seats had a fairly powerful explosive cartridge (main gun cart) to clear the seat from the aircraft which could cause spinal and other injuries,the later rocket seats had a smaller main gun cart just to move the seat a few feet and then the rocket pack would fire and clear the seat well away from the aircraft.

regards LR

[Wander00]

BB standardised me once, back in the 60s

[Wander00]

But I definitely flew it to Wroughton in about 66, and was told that was its last flight. Might possibly have been made serviceable for a last flight to St Athan. Anyone got the aircraft log book?

[Old_Slartibartfast]

The ejection sequence on Canberras was fairly 'slow' in that upon initiating ejection both the navigators hatch and the pilots canopy were jettisoned (using explosive bolts) and only then could the seat 'fire' out of the aircraft,the canberra (being a first generation jet) had older type ejection seats which did not have rocket packs,therefore any ejections had to be inside the seat limits (ie above a certain height/speed and less than a certain descent rate).


I made a very serious error whilst flying in the left hand rear seat in WT308 (what would normally be the nav seat, but the two B(I)6's we had had been modified for trials work, I was just a flight test observer). After shutting down I went to put the pins back in to find that the hatch wasn't armed. I'd flown the whole sortie with the explosive bolts disabled . . .

The seat rating was, I think, 400/400, i.e. 400ft minimum height AGL, 400kts minimum IAS. I can't remember a descent rate limit, but this was a long time ago, when WT308 and WT309 were still at Farnborough.

[reynoldsno1]

Does the B57 count as a Canberra 'variant'?

[57mm]

Works for me, a Canberra is a Canberra.

[wrymouth1]

Dear SLDM

I thought you might like to know that I flew with your father on July 9th 1973 on a training exercise in a Canberra T4 (848). It was just a one off as he was not my student. As a matter of interest, four days later, I flew WJ674 from Cottesmore to Akrotiri returning on the 16th July. I did my last flight on 231 OCU four days later so I had left Cottesmore before your fathers terrible accident.

[Clyffe Pypard]

D o you know that you can get a grandfather clock into a Canberra T4 and fly it from St Eval to Wyton.