Joining Dragonair? This is how it is now

[the hidden]

If you are one of the fifty (so they say) something hopefuls being interviewed in the UK for Dragonair, then you might like to consider some things that I have experienced in my time here in Hong Kong. Whether you are considering the Manchester base, or Hong Kong, the same applies.



We as crew are been right royally rodgered at the moment, from every angle and seemingly unstoppable barrage of negativity and disregard to what is ostensibly a very loyal work force. Everybody who makes the move to Dragonair will have a reasonable amount of experience and professionalism, earned from years spent with previous companies. Nobody relocates to Hong Kong with any intention other than do their best whether professionally or socially. That’s what any self respecting human being would expect and would presume that kind would be met with kind. Dragonair was a company that was an accommodating place to be, but like milk left out too long in the mid-day sun; this place has turned, become sour and not pleasant to be around.



Gone are the days when a roster would be flexible to give you some time off with your family. Day off requests for consecutive days is rarely entertained by the ever increasingly abrasive rostering department. Want that weekend off with your daughter for her 10th birthday in 4 months time, to attend your best mates wedding, to go in a sailing regatta or study an evening course then chances are you will be disappointed. Statistically, you will work 5 or 6 days, landing at between 9-10pm before an off day then commencing duty on an early after your statutory 2 days off. Do expect 2 days off per week, but no more. Don’t think that the system might be better for you because you smile nicely at the girls, it won’t.



Gone are the days when you felt part of the company and individuals were motivated to go the extra distance. Quite frankly history has taught most guys that corporate memories are short, and why try to help out, when you may get bitten. What about 3 years ago when employees were “asked” to taken one months unpaid leave to help the company out, to be told 3 months later, post SARS crisis, that despite record revenue, you wouldn’t be getting anything back. We have expansion they said, and after all you are loyal employees, expatriates so we can shaft you. What are you going to do they infer, strike ha-ha. Even our “brothers” across the road, with there post 49er hangovers, we rewarded for helping out in a time of need.



Gone are the times of approachable management and helpful and friendly corporate culture. When dealing with the locally staffed personnel department, while trying to get help say for example with a rental contract, be under no illusions that you are considered to be an overpaid accessory. They are quite frank and blunt, and rather than helping you, will generally recommend you sort out your problems in your time. We are too busy. Of course this attitude percolates down from middle management, who are bitter little men and women, of limited abilities clinging onto the slippery corporate pole of annual assessments. It feels that their agenda is agitating their expatriate colleagues.



Gone are the days that the remuneration made putting up with all this hostility worth while. Dragonair crew has not had a pay rise for 7 years. Inflation is 2.5%, tax has risen to 17%. House and flat, rentals have risen by as much as 40% in the last two years. The General Manager operations have stated that pilots are better off than 5 years ago. A First Officer starts on £37000 (HK$57000) now, sure that’s really a lot when you pay 10 $US a beer in town. Sarcasm isn’t funny. There will be no raises. The local economy is booming. Even the government has recommended companies look favorably upon raises and bonuses. Only 2% of Hong Kong companies are not considering giving a raise this year. Yes again coming in tops is tight fisted, short sighted Dragonair. But keeping you lean makes you keen right? Keen to leave I think.



Finally, the optimism of last years Cathay buyout is fading fast. Dragonair will be increasingly serving polluted industrialized china with minimal other destinations. Fleet expansion has stagnated, as has command upgrades. The freighter fleet is in disarray. The classics are to be relocated to Hong Kong, to cover regional routes, while the -400s are to go to Manchester. Several pilots have taken a Hong Kong reporting option, they have been left in limbo by our ever so helpfully inept flt ops management “team”. The fleet is now managed by Cathay freight, under CX call signs. But be under no illusions, this will never be an easy back door in to Cx. With Ka salaries a good 20% below their Cx counterparts, not to mention rental allowances, there are not enough synergies that could be obtained by amalgamation. You will be second fiddle to Cx pilots, always.



Of course at the end of the day if you don’t mind been bitter and twisted, grind your axe daily and loose some of the old grey matter then carry on, it worked for me.

[Dutchjock]

wow.....

That is shocking. £37000 ? is that for an f/o? How do they get experienced people.:confused:

[Outtahere]

The Hidden's account of Dragonair these days is spot on unfortunately.

Only good for a free of charge type rating I'm afraid. 5- 8 years to a command by which time it will be on a mainland China salary scale. Pollution killing your kids, nasty letters for being 3 minutes late to work & a management style that makes the military of the 60's look modern.

For those being interviewed, if you ask the hard questions, the interviewers will falter. Don't let them fool you, it is you interviewing them, not the other way around.

That is of course if anyone bothers to turn up.

[dpamember]

Although a fairly accurate account of the current state at Dragonair, I'd like to add my 2 cent worth:

1. % of days off request entertained for April ranged from 60 - 85% depending on fleet.

2. Monthly Remuneration 1st Yr F/O. HK57,000, plus Housing (either Rental or House Purchasing Scheme, child education for up to 3 children, and the travel fund to your domicile.

There's 13 month, bonus (albeit little) and 15% gratuity after 3 years.

3. New routes since CX takeover, Busan in Korea and reinstatement of Phuket. We've lost Bangkok though.

4. Priority 29 at the moment. No ID90 business on CX. One World employees are on priority 28. Even though we're a wholly owned CX subsidiary we'd be bumped off by any of One World Carrier employee. Hmmm, so much for that 'synergy' talk they go on about and that 'Dare to Care' slogan from Personnel!

[Dutchjock]

What about the KA cargo ex man, do they get £37000 as well and do they get housing allowance or something similar?

I understand the cargo crew is a great bunch, and I suppose not beeing based in hkg would make a big difference, or am I wrong in thinking that?

[geh065]

I think people should seriously have a good look at joining Oasis.

[Dutchjock]

Why? Oasis make people pay for the conversion course :=

[bobrun]

Oasis make people pay for the conversion course
Most of the companies where I come from that asked pilots to pay for their training ended up going bust....If they can't or won't afford training, it makes you think...

[Outtahere]

'Oasis make people pay for the conversion course'

Yep, Dragonair & Cx are paying at the moment!

[Rudi Zarsoff]

I understand that anyone joining KA will have about an 8-10 year wait for a command.
Given that any new joiner has approx 200 in front of them and only "modest expansion" even that figure would seem generous.
It seems the early command has well and truly gone and CX would seem a much better long term proposition now.

[Dutchjock]

Any chance of amalgamation between the two?

[HKG Phooey]

I think KA will be almalgamated into oblivion!!!

Not a good place to work. EVERYONE you fly with are un-happy + miserable. Complaining about:

Rosters
Management
Rosters
Management
-400 Package
Rosters
Hotels
Crew Transport
Leave
Pollution
Why is no one leaving?
etc......


:{

[Dutchjock]

Anyone got anything positive to say about KA??? :ugh:

[HKG Phooey]

It's Positively Rubbish!

:mad:

[Elroy Jettson]

HKG Phooey,

I think you are asking the right question. Why arent people leaving? Morale is low, that appears obvious from your post, but where is it high? Not Cathay, Qantas, BA, or United, so the legacy carriers are out. Who has the best package? Is the package important anymore, or is morale and lifestyle rosters worth more than money? I am just expanding on the question you have asked, not having a personal dig.

How about the LCC's? Oasis might have good morale because everyone is still in honeymoon mode, but that doesnt last, it wont be long before they start to feel like the lowest paid 400 drivers on the pax side of the airport. That will come, its human nature, or pilot nature, a matter of time.

Not sure where home is for you, but Jetstar, virgin, freedom, ryanair, easyjet, jet blue, virgin nigeria, is that where the action is? I'm not sure either. I think people arent leaving because the problems at dragon, are not just isolated to KA, they are industry wide. I am not sure if there is a better deal out there, just the same sh$t different dog, and management know it. Hence no pay rise, no rostering agreement, just a token offer of part time work, to show the new bosses that they are prepared to talk to the pilots, and pretending to try and make peace to get rid of that embarrasing pesky ban. No doubt the new boss is pressuring Tim to make it go away. Why else has he only just started to talk to the pilots now?

The reality is, there isnt a rostering program on earth that can make a legal roster with the increased schedule CX want KA to fly, they dont have enough pilots to cover their current schedule. There must be lots of pressure to make this ban go away. I know the ban is on the 400, and not the airbus, but there are alot of pilots that arent applying to KA incase they are offered the 400. There are too many other jobs out there for guys with the experience level that ka has traditionally tried to attract, to want to get caught up in an industrial mess. CX can only give KA so many cadets to fill the seats, they are short of crew too.

The only answer for the management is to get more pilots. The only way that will happen smoothly, is to negotiate a lifting of the pesky ban. Sit tight, who knows? I think KA might see a few positive changes.... :)

But if the real issue is pollution, that aint going to get any better in our life time. :( If the Amazon forrest is known as the lungs of the earth, this place (China and Hong Kong) has surely got to be the ar$ehole. :sad:

[Bill Smith]

Hasn't the Ban been lifted?

26-03-2007

TO: PROSPECTIVE DRAGONAIR PILOTS

The DPA, representing the majority of Dragonair's pilots, has successfully concluded an agreement with management, whereby the rights to fly Dragonair aircraft under existing, agreed-to contracts, have been re-confirmed.

It has taken a long time, and the DPA would like to thank the many pilots who, by respecting the ban, have assisted our efforts to protect our legal contracts.

Now, we are happy to announce that the IFALPA-sponsored ban on recruitment for Dragonair's new fleet of B747-400 freighters is officially withdrawn, and we once again welcome interest in these positions.

It is the DPA's understanding that for the foreseeable future, Dragonair intends to recruit crews onto the B744F into our Manchester base, subject to our existing 2001 Flight Crew Services contract.

Yours sincerely,

Captain Andrew Mackinlay
On behalf of the DPA

[Elroy Jettson]

Thanks Bill,

Good news for prospective employees, as long as they know it has been dropped. :)

Maybe more candidates will turn up to the next round of interviews.

[boocs]

If the Amazon forrest is known as the lungs of the earth, this place (China and Hong Kong) has surely got to be the ar$ehole.



I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry over this. A poignant statement nonetheless.

b.

[Fly747]

Is his wife any good?

[dragon501]

Mwaaaaaaahahahahhahahaha Lol ;-)))

[BigLebowsky]

Hmm, this is getting really difficult now...
I must say I didn't apply due to the ban, but now it's been lifted I'm looking to go for the MCT job. But reading all the negativity is not doing much for my spirit. Is it just the HKG base that's miserable, or does this negativity exist in the UK as well?

Maybe I should just go take a plumbing course...

[joebanana]

BigL

As Vermin has suggested, go along to the interview and ask some hard questions, their replies should tell you all you need to know.

The problems highlighted above all exist at the Manchester base. We share the same management, the crappy rosters, the indifference to our lifestyle, fatigue and day to day shambles that emerges from crew control.

No pay rise for 6 years, not even cost of living currently running at 4.5% annually in the UK. Down route allowances have only gone down in that time. £450 a year to park your car at work! Rosters getting worse.

I could go on and on but it's all been said before. Think very carefully before taking any job with KA.

[BigLebowsky]

Well I'm with FR at the moment so I don't think management can get any worse, but thanks for the info! (that's the prime reason why I'm desperatly needing to change jobs)
It's a shame really, not many good companies out there.

Joebanana, what's the problem wiht rostering? That is for me a make or break thing as I'd be commuting...
(And don't say no flexibility coz where I am now there is NONE, that word doesn't even exist. As an example I just had ALL my annual leave requests denied for the whole year coming!)

[Flickroll2]

This says itall i'm afraid! But if the real issue is pollution, that aint going to get any better in our life time. If the Amazon forrest is known as the lungs of the earth, this place (China and Hong Kong) has surely got to be the ar$ehole.:eek:
:*
Many times while decending into the arsehole of china 8/10 times you will get calls from the cabin stating there is a electricail burning smell back here? You look at the Alitimeter to Realize that you have just decented into the welcomeing home blanket of dirty **** sulphur smelling gases popping up the Airconditioing sysytem and this is around 16,000ft or so.

Beautiful, just Beautiful and they're still trying to use the pull the wool over there eyes with the aurgument of saying that thigs are just as good as they were ten years ago..... I would hope that senior captains here will finally see the light and piss off and get some major contract to forfill there last years in aviation.

This place, make no mistake is a **** hole to fly into.:* :D

[joebanana]

BigL,

I could spend all day on this but I'll try to keep it brief.

The rostering is bordering on the negligent and from a business point of view is totally illogical. We are often away on 12 day duty cycles but end up flying 3 or 4 times, the rest of the time we are on standby (often when there isn't a departure) in crap hotels in HKG and DXB or simply waiting for yet another delayed aircraft. The number of roster changes during a cycle has to be seen to be believed!

No account whatsoever is taken of circadian disruption or the fatigue associated with an East-West route structure. If you haven't flown long haul before then the fatigue is very different to the fatigue associated with multi-sector days. You will often go days without sleeping more than a couple of hours at a time.

Any suggestions to improve the efficiency of the roster are routinely ignored. There is no desire to consider any lifestyle concerns and it seems that the rostering staff would rather give you maximum number of days away rather than compacting duty cycles - for flexibility!!!

I've been here for several years and we have always been short of crew for the style of rostering. 'We're recruiting' is the constant answer but we have not once been able to produce a roster with the right number of crews. This impacts on both the rostering stage and the day to day operations. Bizarre roster patterns emerge and any sickness or disruption has a massive knock on effect that causes chaos for days on end.

I know that FR is an equally poor place to be and initially KA may appear to be a reasonable place to be, if only because it's a change. You will very soon find out that rostering is a shambles, management inept, and pay inadequate. Did anybody mention the screw-up about UK tax?

If you want to leave FR (and I can't blame you!) then think carefully before coming to KA, there are more attractive options elsewhere.

[vikena]

Its a tosspot managed sh1thole. Really don't bother leaving FR.

[Fly747]

Its a friggin shambles. Last week a Captain was sent on Emirates full fare DXB-MAN because they were short a crew there, however they couldn't find an FO so they cancelled the flight and sent the Captain back to DXB on Emirates again. (Pointless positioning is not unusual).
If you enjoy wasting your time away in hotel rooms that stink of stale piss (Novotel DXB) then this is the place for you. You can't go anywhere in DXB because the traffic is so bad it takes an age to get anywhere.
If you're a Ryan man then why not try Sqeezy jet in Belfast and earn more than you will at KA. It is a thrill to fly the big Jumbo bwana for a while but that soon wears thin.
Good Luck!

[Dutchjock]

A First Officer starts on £37000 (HK$57000)

So after UK tax how much would a FO take home?

[DrunkenAir]

As a long time employee of KA I can attest that the good days are gone. While there is some embellishment in some of the above posts, there are many not far from the truth. I would have left by now except that it is difficult to find a position as a Direct Entry Commander that suits my family. The same situation exists for others so that possibly explains why so few crews have left. Legacy carriers are certainly not the preferred option for anyone here as they join so far down the list that even 5 yrs to command here seems worth it. Given what I know now, I would have to say go to that legacy carrier, and enjoy your lifestyle while there. You cannot enjoy HKG lifestyle unless you spend the majority of your income, and if you intend to do that, why bother coming here in the first place.

Just for those that are still interested in KA, a monthly roster will have you away from home for around 280-300 hrs with around 10 days home in HKG.
The cost of living has risen considerably in the past 3 yers however there has been no pay rise in 6. It is even worse for the MAN based chaps who now need to pay UK taxes and are on only a 10% bonus (which is fully taxable).
The basic cost of living in HKG is around double to triple what you may used to. In summer you can expect utility costs around $3000HK per month while you run the aircons, and you have to!
Most food is imported so unless you wish to eat noodles and chinese greens a weekly spend at the supermarket for a family of four is around $5000HK.
Education costs are expensive. True they are subsidised but only to a certain level. Luckily I am past it but I hear that others are paying around $2000Hk per month (after allowances) per child.
True that you dont need a car if you live in HK and that the public transport system is second to none. However if you decide to live outside the MTR zones, as many do, then a car is essential. Cost of fuel is around $13 per litre. Add tollway roads and parking costs and a daily trip to work costs around $300HK.

For those considering coming here I would have to say that given an option of either KA or CX - take CX. CX are the masters and will ensure that CX prospers while KA withers. The KA brand will be around for another 5 years or so and then the real fight to keep or improve conditions will be fought. Luckily I shall be gone by then.

Have a drink on me!
Drunkenair.

[Q-pot]

This thread makes for very worrying reading to the prospective KA pilot(in particular Man base).
I knew things were bad in there but didn't think it was that bad !
Am in the recruitment process at the moment and don't like what I'm reading here.
Any way,Thanks all for the heads up,its all good information :ok: :ok:

[And Then]

For someone joining now would it would be unreasonable to expect a command inside of 7 years ( manager's words ).

This would be subject to an expansion by Cathay that isn't guarranteed.

Something else not factored here is that in that time frame there will be a lot of locals ready for upgrading too.

Is it fair to say command prospects at Dragonair bleak and uncertain?
You will go backwards on a KA first officers wage living in Hong Kong for a long period. This with consideration to the resistance to any much needed payrise and what you get paid now is what they will want to pay you in a decade!

[FL245]

Q-Pot you have a PM

[Flap 5]

Wow! KA has certainly gone downhill since I left in '99. It was showing signs of going that way then but this is bad!

In a way it is not that surprising. With a 'yes' man for GMO, who had dubious competency for the position, and a Personnel Manager who was very anti pilots I can see how it happened.

[Millstream]

Aside a few freighters, does KA have any aircraft on order? I haven't heard of any to replace those that leave as operating leases expire. I would say command prospects - absent a major new order - look dim.

Milly

[Millstream]

When does the A330 arrive? Was that a very recent order? No mention in the company AR of any more A330 deliveries. Perhaps on the way back from Air China? Thought they were leased wet, with crews?

Milly

[Push to talk]

Been reading this topic and am unpleasantly suprised. Going for an interview for KA next week. I wonder what they will tell me. If it is as bad as people say here, they wil never find the people. On the other hand they might do, since there are always people who accept sh*t for low salaries.

[Ka-life]

There will be no new A330 for KA. There are 2 A330 doing wetlease for Air China but they are wetleased with crew. They will be returned within the next year.
I see no reason to join KA. As a captain here you can save money but as an FO with family- no way. I would say 5-7 years for command.
The negative aspects of the job I would list as
Roster, Nightstops,route network, management and HK pollution
Positive
Leave system and a good chance to see Asia on your leave.
As there are no expansion plans I wouldn't come here for now.

[bluefish]

You see the problem isn't that there are lots of people who are willing to accept the sh*t for less money. If I compare the situation some of you are describing at KA to my own company, I would get the same sh*t I have now, except that I would get three times as much money for it at KA... All of the sudden that sounds like a very tempting scenario...

[BigLebowsky]

Thanks everyone for getting to the root with all this.
But as someone said, "stay at FR", is not an option. It's so bad here just now I'm not even gonna start. But the good-list that Ka-life listed can all be put under bad...
The problem is salary, sure there might be some good places to go to, but to go from a command salary to 1st year F/O say in Virgin is a BIG drop. So there's only a few places that will pay enough to even be considered...
Some of the really good places only take rated pilots, so how long is the bond in KA? I'm thinking maybe getting a rating, then leaving when time's up...
EZY, nah. Gotta get out of this Low cost swamp...

[dragon501]

Money is soooo bad..... Guess everyone else pays soooo much more right??? Lotsa bad things, but money.... Not one of them as far as I and a lot of others are concerned...

That's why noone is leaving..... START LEAVING!!!!!!

[dragon501]

2/3/4, yes please.......... 20%..... Bring it on!!!!
Trouble is with a pilot turnover of 1 (ONE) percent I recently heard (and let's face it, we're all GONNA leave but no one actually packs the stuff and runs..) there is not a great case to argue.....
Biggest BIGGEST concern I find is that SH1TE rostering.... It is PATHETIC..... Strange thing that the sickness is soooooo highhhhhhhhh....
Enjoy your day, my view today is HZ, just like the other 300 days of the year....
ta ta

PS. I do think that with the way the UK market is going, the freighter has a better position to get what we ALL should get.... Only trouble is that the UK tax man is coming after all now isn't it?? Whether UK resident or not??

[Norman Goering]

Anyone from MAN care to publish an example roster?
I'm hoping for an interview (MAN F/O) but beginning to have a few concerns now......
Currently I'm a (poorly paid) UK regional so I would have thought the change to KA still worthwhile?

[start 4123]

Stay at home and go to pub, makes you feel better!!

During the interview they will tell you how great KA is blablablabla.
ask about the UK Payee fiasco, or what they are going to do about it!
answer: not our problem, tax is your problem!
They will tell you more then their own employees, we have not heard anything!!

You want a MAN roster on here,
do not bother YOU WILL NOT FLY WHAT IS ON IT ANYWAY!!! due to crew sickness or disturbance <-rosterings favourite for a long time

my personal best 12 days away 1 operating sector and positioned from DXB to HKG and back to DXB for nothing, but hee, it shows I was on duty:uhoh:
this is not an isolated case, normal to be away for 10 days and do 4 sectors and the boss want more productivity:confused:

a few points:
-morale at lowest point ever on all fleets, money is not going to solve it anymore. the lifestyles we had are long gone!!!
-KA is basically imploding day by day and nobody in office seems to care or notice.
-you join now say 5-8 years for command, in that time CX takes over, KA below CX, you still in RHS another 8-10 in CX.
- lots of senior cadets ahead of you who are reaching the 5000 hours for command in the coming years

Many moons ago KA was a good place, but not anymore!!

1 positive thing:
The crews on the freighter are a great bunch of guys and now 1 girl to operate airplanes with, the nights out are usually nights to remember!!! if you can,that is:O


good luck in the interview!!! enjoy the drinks

start 4123

[Camout]

Is anbody able to elaborate a little more on the KA- U.K / Hong Kong taxation situation please.:confused:

[dragon521]

Basically,

From Oct 2007 KA will make all their MAN based crew known to the UK taxman. even the non residents:uhoh:
which means everybody will have to pay UK tax on top of HK tax.
even if you can claim it back. first you have to pay it, which for some guys will get them into serious liqidity? problems.

like start4123 stated, we do not get a lot of info, we are talking to accountants our selves to see what we can do!!

521

[Fly747]

Although the IFALPA ban has been lifted it is still not a good time to join Dragonair given the current tax fiasco. Not only will you have to pay UK and HK tax you will also have to pay HK tax in advance! You will take home about 40% of your pay until it is sorted out!
Many of us are waiting to see how management handle this before we decide to move on or not. Any slight semblence of good times has come to an end at Dragonair.
No pay rise for 6yrs and probably 5yrs plus to command for MAN base and even longer for HKG. Be wary of their interview promises.

[DrunkenAir]

One HKG Captain has just resigned. I understand 2 more waiting on acceptance by EK, though this is rumor.

[Norman Goering]

Dragon521,
Can you just clarify this for me then please - even if I am a UK resident I will pay UK tax AND HK tax??? Or is it the other way round - i.e. the UK based guys pay UK tax, but the unfortunate HK based chaps pay both?

[dragon521]

If UK resident you pay:

-2 years HKG tax, 1 year in advance 1 time only
-1 year UK tax, UK tax man will deduct part paid in HKG.

Non resident:

- 2 years HKG tax, 1 year in advance 1 time
- rest in country of residence, could be nothing depending on tax treaties.

WARNING: this is NOW, in October 07 all is/could be changing

[Norman Goering]

:ooh: :ooh: :ooh:
So, despite having never set foot in Hong Kong, I would still get to pay the HK govt 2 years tax, a year of which is upfront!!!!!

[dragon521]

correct,

the reason being, you work for a HKG company. so you will pay tax in HKG.
strange thing is you will not get a HKG id card because you are MAN based, so no access to cheap tax loans in HKG.

521

[qanpulse]

To put it simply, it seems that commands are always 1 more year. Have been here for a while, with a command course getting close. BUT.... if you join KA now looking for a quick command, you will be bitterly disappointed, it will take at least 5 years for the Airbus.

The guys on this thread are just telling you how it is. The rosters are CRAP, and not worth the paper there written on. With the current exchange rate, we have all had a 30% pay cut in the last 3 years.

So forget about how good the pay is, especially if you have a morgage in your home country. With the cost of living in HK, the increase in rents, and the constant snipes and niggles at what was a great conditions of service, you will struggle as an F/O if you have a wife and family.

SO:
At Dragonair you will have NO lifestyle, NO prospects, and NO cash....

Sounds obvious to me. Teach this idiotic management (and i use the term management very loosely) a bloody lesson. Wait until we can improve the package and also get a rostering agreement, then join in droves... all welcome.

:mad:

[DrunkenAir]

Re HK/UK TAX.

Just a clarifiction on the HK tax issue. In HK you pay 70% provisional tax for the upcoming tax year, based on your last years income. So depending on when you join, and when the tax dept get you on their books, you may not pay tax for 2 yrs or so. You will however then pay arrears on yr 1 and 2, plus 70% of yr 3. I know of 1 HK based FO that got a tax demand for $380,000 after 2.5 yrs.

A further point is that in order to fall inside the tax net you need to spend more than 60 days in any tax year in HK. Almost all KA crews meet the 60 day requirement. And with the cahnge in the operation where more regional flights are planned, those that escaped the net in the past will not escape in the future.

On other matters, I understand that an FO has recently resigned looking for greener pastures.

If anyone is doing an interview, or has done one recently, I certainly would like to get your impressions, as I am sure many others will.

Cheers (hic!)

[dragon521]

just to clarify Drunkens post

most of the MAN based crew spent MORE then 60 days in HKG.
so no tax reclaim!!

521

[Norman Goering]

By my estimations then as a newbie on the quoted £45,900, HK tax equates to a fair amount.

Somebody please reassure me my maths is as crap as I hope it is and that it's nowhere near as bad as this?

On another note, no pension was mentioned - is that the case?

*edited to account for poor maths!*

[dragon521]

NG

this is the HKG tax website, fill in the numbers and you know your amount

http://www.ird.gov.hk/eng/ese/ind_stc.htm

btw did they quote you that starting salary figure??

[Norman Goering]

Thanks for that. Thankfully the allowances make a big difference and my liability would be significantly less.

My typo - I believe £45,900 was the quoted start salary (I've edited my post accordingly)

As I said in an earlier post, whilst I appreciate it may be cack compared to what you're used to at Dragonair, to some it may still sound worthwhile - it's all relative I suppose.

[joebanana]

£45,900 is the starting salary.

As for pension, there is none! We currently receive an annual gratuity (payable after 3 years) of 10% of salary. This is also taxed so will end up being 6%.

[Numero Crunchero]

norman et al,
sorry to butt in here as a CX big brother but I think it would be handy to know some tax stuff.

First thing...hkg 'provisional' tax. In oz, we call our tax PAYE...pay as you earn. I am sure the UK has the same thing but with a different name. So lets say you joined a company, in the UK, on April 1st and you were going to earn X pounds per year. If your tax owing for the entire Apr 1st to Mar 31st tax was Y, how much of Y would you have paid by Jan 1st....about 75%. Well despite scaremongering, that is exactly how it works it hkg. You end up paying tax on money you have already earnt. So for people that complain of huge tax bills after a year or two, its because they haven't being paying any tax at all for those 2 years.
In summary, you wont have to pay tax on any money you haven't already physcially got in your pocket already!

Second thing...you almost never get double taxed. I can only speak from antipodean experience but since our law(tax law) is completely based on UK law, I am almost certain it applies.
Lets keep it simple...hkg and UK tax people may think you are a dual resident. As such you have to pay tax in both countries. Almost all countries have an agreement that allows the main country to tax first then the secondary country. So, in australian english, if hkg decides you live there first, you pay your 16% tax. After that, mother england decides you should pay Z% of your gross salary to mr brown(is he still there?). BUT, you get to reduce that payment by what you have already paid to HKG. So you are no worse off than if you were ONLY a resident in UK. If, for argument sake, you were in HKG less than 60 days, you wouldnt have to pay hkg tax, but you would still have to pay Z% of your gross salary to UK IRD. So you pay the HKIRD 0, since less than 60days, then pay UK taxman Z% of gross salary less hkg paid tax!!!!!!
So at the end of the day you pay the tax of the highest country you are resident of.

To summarise.

In HKG, by the time you pay tax you will already have been paid the income...ie it is the same as a time lag PAYE
The total tax you pay over two countries will almost always be less than or equal to tax payable in the highest taxing country.

clear as mud?

[dragon501]

NC, seems like you have not followed the latest..... All sounds logic but that's just about to change thanks to the 49ers court case which woke up the UK IRD....

So, HKG tax, yes. UK tax, yes that as well..... Than after the year it's up to you to get it back....... (All if you are NON Uk resident or PART if you are..)

Not the rules, not normal etc but that is the way it is going per October 1st as it stands now....

Cheers

[BigLebowsky]

Thanks for that summary, it makes sense that that is the way it would work. I can't imagine that you have to pay tax twice. Has anyone taken this to a specialist or is this just rumours about double taxing?
I'm in the uk now, but if I was getting double taxed I'd just get a mail box in a different country, list that as my main residence n keep a "holiday" home in the UK. Seems to work for the FR contractors...
Another thing, if an F/O got a tax claim for $380k that should be a good thing, if it's true he must be making a sh*tload of money! (hope he's been saving some!)

[dragon501]

I give up.............

I work here.... All my colleagues WORK here...... And we are not to know...

Ah well good luck then....

ta ta

[BigLebowsky]

Dragon, I was posting at the same time at you so I never saw your latest post before I posted, but I've changed my original post to reflect what you were saying...

[Numero Crunchero]

dragon,
wow, that is draconian!
As I said, not current with these UK changes but I can tell you that in oz it was similar in that you had to pay FULL oz tax and then claim back money paid to hkg IRD. I would be surprised if it doesn't end up exactly the same in this case. The UK would be flying(no pun intended) in the face of international double taxation convention if hkg tax was not reclaimable. I think the US system is also similar to what I am describing.
Time will tell....

[Dan Winterland]

PAYE is called PAYE in the UK too.

When I was a KA feighter F/O based in the UK and living in the UK, I paid HK tax. My UK tax bill (paid retrospectively then) had the HK tax paid in that year deducted. I didn't have to front up UK tax or pay double tax.

The difference from Oct is that the company will have to deduct PAYE and pay it direct to the UK Inland Revenue. Whether this will have the HK element deducted is the question being asked now.

[OldChinaHand]

It is pointless talking about what happened in the past.
It is pointless talking about want happens in Australia.
It is pointless talking in tax language.

THE POINT IS.
From 1st Oct 2007 : Those based in UK will have UK PAYE removed from their salary at source, in other words they will never see, touch or taste that money, it goes straight from Cathay or Dragonair to the pocket of the UK taxman.
Also :
The employee must pay Hong Kong Tax, roughly 17% of salary.
Those are the facts.

Some may be able to claim the Hong Kong tax back later, perhaps if they spend less than 60 days in 1 year and 120 in two years ,they can. In mucho years in Hong Kong I have never got it back. Also if you live in another tax system and pay tax there you may be able to claim some or all the HK tax back. Basically if you want to know go to a tax lawyer/advisor/accountant.

Those who live in the UK, will have to pay the paye. Those who live outside the UK MAY be able to get a no tax code, or at least claim it back if they meet non-resident status. The rules for non-residency are very strict and get stricter all the time.

Following is an example for a married FO living in uk starting on a salary of 45,900 as quoted.Figures from listen to the taxman.com.

Salary ......................45.900.
Tax Free Allowances.... 5,225.
PAYE........................ 9,774.
National Insurance...... 3,371.
Total Deductions........13,145. (all gone in tax)
Net Salary................ 32,755.

Then the HKG tax 17% /45,900 is 7803stg leaves you with a net salary of 24,592, or 2,079 a month. Until you can claim back you HKG tax if you live in the UK. Also there are severe penelties for not paying HK tax on the due dates.

Cash Flow problems or what.

[HKG Phooey]

Even if KA payed the best money in the world. Why would you come to KA? you will have no life... no life no wife!

Pollution
Crap Rosters
No compensation for risking your life on the roads in the "amazing" China
Medical cover - Rubbish
Pay - Rubbish
etc... all the stuff you have read before...

Go somewhere else... anywhere....


:yuk:

[Flap 5]

... and no pension.

[homebuilt]

If UK resident you pay:
-2 years HKG tax, 1 year in advance 1 time only
-1 year UK tax, UK tax man will deduct part paid in HKG.
Non resident:
- 2 years HKG tax, 1 year in advance 1 time
- rest in country of residence, could be nothing depending on tax treaties.
WARNING: this is NOW, in October 07 all is/could be changing
Have you got an idea of what a 2-year HKG tax represents in £, or € for a non-UK resident? Myself I'm livin' in the "stinkin' cheese eater" country, the country where we do raise frogs!;)
I'm scheduled for an interview with KA for the MAN freighter base, and if it works and if I elect to work for them I consider continueing to live in France and commuting to MAN.
And here in France, tax level is ugly also....
Dom

[Shot Nancy]

"inmates"

Love it!

[sidesteppa]

"the grass is always greener" TIL YOU HAVE TO MOW IT!!!! Big mistake believing the "Bull" sold at my interview! Bottom line as an F/O with a family you Break even at best! Then add the rosters, management, :ugh: life style, expense of HK and the toxic air and this is not a good job and just about anything is better than this!

[sidesteppa]

From todays Fairfax press in Australia originally from Financial Times Asia:

Expats steer clear of Hong Kong air
Marc Moncrief
March 12, 2007



Photo: AP
Something in the air: smog pervades Hong Kong Disneyland.

POLLUTION is chasing professionals out of Hong Kong and could undermine the financial centre's prospects, according to the editor of the Financial Times Asia edition.

FT Asia editor Victor Mallet said many of Hong Kong's financial heavyweights had begun to look elsewhere for better places to work and raise children.

"Some investment bankers, fund managers, hedge fund managers and others who are mobile are already beginning in some cases to move from Hong Kong — say, to Singapore — for the sake of their families," Mr Mallet said.

A study released in September by human resources firm Hudson showed air pollution was making it difficult for 35 per cent of businesses to attract talent to Hong Kong.

Forty-four per cent of executives said expatriate employees were leaving Hong Kong companies because of air pollution. The bulk of those who left — 34 per cent — relocated to Singapore, while 21 per cent came to Australia.

To attract talent, companies were offering higher wages or better housing allowances to expatriates.

Hong Kong is east Asia's premier financial services centre, but its air is among the dirtiest in the world — far dirtier than other well-known smog-afflicted cities such as Los Angeles or Tokyo.

Much of the money stoking China's expansion enters via Hong Kong, making the city's health key to the world's growth engine.

Last week Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao told the country's annual parliamentary gathering that China must become greener — even if that means reining in economic growth.

China's economy grew 10.7 per cent last year, but Mr Wen said the country should try to slow that rate to 8 per cent.

"We must make energy saving, decreased energy consumption, reduced emission of pollutants and intensive use of land the breakthrough point and main fulcrum for accelerating economic restructuring and changing the pattern of economic growth," Mr Wen said.

But despite the rhetoric, China's carbon emissions are expected to increase to nearly three times 2003 levels by 2030. FT Asia's Mr Mallet said Chinese internal politics would have to change for Mr Wen's words to bring action.

"You know the old saying about China; "The mountains are high and the emperor is far away.' " Mr Mallet said. "That applies to environmental policy and investment policy as much as anything else."

http://geobay.com/a3f259

[sidesteppa]

3
Dirty Lungs
Probationary PPRuNer

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: HK
Posts: 3

From terradaily.com....

Hong Kong Pollution Leaves Tourists Choking


Hong Kong at night.
by Staff Writers
Hong Kong (AFP) Mar 20, 2006
Green activists said Sunday that Hong Kong's multi-billion dollar tourism industry was at risk after a survey found half the visitors to the city had complained of the worsening air pollution.

Friends of the Earth Hong Kong said the poll of tour guides also found that one in ten tourists suffered pollution-linked health problems while visiting the semi-autonomous southern Chinese territory.
The poll of more than 150 tour guides and agents who accompanied overseas and mainland Chinese tourists in Hong Kong also found that 40 percent of visitors were aware of the city's pollution problems before arriving. "Hong Kong's lucrative tourism business, its international image and its citizens' health are at risk from the pollution in this city," said Edwin Lau, Friends of the Earth Hong Kong coordinator.
"Matters have got to a terrible state in a very quick time," Lau added, citing an study that found Hong Kong Airport recorded one day of smog-related poor visibility in every 3.5 days last year, up from one in eight in 2002.
Last week smog levels rose to such dangerously high levels that the government was forced to warn people with breathing or heart problems to stay indoors.
Visibility also plummeted, blocking out the city's famous high-rise views and reducing visibility in the busy harbour to less than a kilometer.
The government has said most of the pollution rolls in from mainland China's heavily industrialised Pearl River delta region, which has seen huge economic growth in the past decade.
However, Friends of the Earth Hong Kong and local campaigners Clear the Air say local power producers are also major culprits.
"The pollution is not 'coming down from China'," said Annelise Connell, chairperson of Clear The Air, in a statement. "The sulphur dioxide levels are really bad ... which shows that our own power plants are involved in regional pollution," she added.
Lau said Hong Kong's two major power plants, which use a high level of polluting coal, and the city's bus companies, which rely on vehicles with poor emissions controls, were the major sources of pollution. Tourism last year brought in a record 22 million visitors.


If you are thinking of moving here (especially with a family), then educate yourself. A good place to start: www.cleartheair.com.hk

[OLBA18]

No pay rise since 2001
None coming
Join now you will have 200 f/o's ahead of you for command in HKG
No A/C on order for HKG + young demograph of current captains = long long wait for command.
15.7 HKD to the pound

It will be interesting to see who joins from the latest batch of interviews in UK

[HKG Phooey]

I'm thinking it means... what sort of crazy people they will be! I mean after reading this why in the name of God would you possibly join KA...? :hmm:

[joebanana]

Apparently only 10 out of 23 pitched up for their interviews in London last week. All of whom I'm sure were high calibre candidates. ;)

[Outtahere]

High calibre & unable to access PPRuNe I suspect. A few more fail to turn up for the free type rating, can't be far away from the 'walk in' interview the FA's get.

[Lowkoon]

Airamerica, appreciate you are chasing information, these guys are giving it to you. Mate, its a pretty long bow to call these people who are leaving or complaining about the air quality greenies! We are talking about Merryl Lynch pulling out of hong kong and china, and moving all their money and resources offshore, and advising strongly that their clients do the same. We are talking about stock brokers, commodity traders and investment bankers, the Gordon Geckos of the world deciding it is not a place they want to invest or live.

All the tree hugging rainbow warriors have long gone. We are talking about the "who cares, as long as there is a buck to be made" money mercenary crowd pulling out... Big difference.

Maybe watch the movie wall street, then if you think that these people have the environment as their number one priority, then brand them as greenies. And yes, i did note you brand yourself as one... Peace Brother! :)

[Deske1]

What is the 1st day screening in LGW about?Need help for the next week "visit".Thanks.

[Lowkoon]

Airamerica, totally agree with you... Very few leaving, often refered to here as the golden handcuffs... The money is good compared to elsewhere, but not that much better, at 16 to 1, FOs earn less than 4000 pounds a month, lifestyle and rostering far worse than any of the low cost carriers with a rostering agreement. With no aircraft on order, and no one really leaving, what do you think that will do to time to command? Housing is better than cx so's and fo's, worse than cx captains. Schooling covers the absolute basic minimum you would want for your children, nothing more, public (government) school equivalent. You get that for free in UK, AUS or US anyway.

Hkg dollar is pegged to the US, and headed south against just about every other currency on earth. Housing scheme lets you live in something that makes council flats from the 60s seem spacious, but that is hkgs property market, not dragons fault. Yes, it seems generous that they would offer it, but your entire salary wouldn't cover a decent rent if they didnt offer it, so who would come here for that?

Many realise that the golden handcuffs are made from 24 carat fools gold. Good bunch of line pilots though. Dont make the mistake management does, just because they arent leaving, doesnt mean they arent looking around. Like anywhere though, some love it, some hate it, most are somewhere between the 2.

[dragon501]

Great post Lowkoon....

[bluefish]

Yes, Lowkoon actually seems tp give quite a fair view of the situation. And also the fact is that there are MANY airline jobs in Europe that pay FAR less than Dragon. Usually these kinds of jobs also have all the negative sides described at Dragon, like poor management, unstable rosters, 800 block hours a year and so on.

I'm not planning on joining KA, but from what I hear, I would be left with twice the amount of money after tax if I did, even considering the cost of living.

Someone doubted the "standard" of the applicants considering joining KA. In light of the above mentioned facts I think that's a bit unfair...

Some of you apparantly have great jobs, where things are working as they should, or at least better than at KA, even if the pay isn't sky high. That is great. Would you mind telling me what airlines you are working at? I'll send in an application right away :)

[Karrupted]

For those of you who haven't had the pleasure of living in HK and working for Dragonair, let me explain ...

If, like me, you have a family of young children, it doesn't matter how much you are paid, or how quick the commands are, or how good the blokes you fly with are - you still lie awake at night wondering just how much damage you are doing to the health of the people you care most about in the world. It's like a background noise, and after a few years it really starts to gnaw away at you - am I taking the filthy lucre at the expense of my children's futures??

It's that sort of background pressure that led me to send my family back to Oz, and the reason I am looking for a job elsewhere - and before the cynics try to wind me up, I've had a good run professionally at KA, but it doesn't (and nor should it) compensate for the dramatic cost to my lifestyle.

And it's not just pilots - check out today's SCMP: Edo De Waart, HK Symphony's leading conductor has relocated his family to the US out of concerns for his children's health. It really is an environmental disaster.

So, when you add on the most disgraceful management I've ever had to work with (4 airlines), zero control over my roster (that's a whole new thread!), and CX hanging over our heads, if I was looking for work as a pilot I'd be bypassing KA if I wanted any semblance of a lifestyle, especially if I had a family.

Sorry to spoil the party.:uhoh:

[Al E. Vator]

In summary, it's affluence and effluence.

Who in their right mind wants affluence if you have to live in effluence?

[easyprison]

I considered leaving easyJet last year for Dragonair, but decided not to. I've often wondered if I made a mistake but reading through this I see Dragaonair as the easyJet of the Hong Kong?!

As it turns out easyJet has turned out good (rostering + pay) thanks to a new people friendly CEO. So i'd say you Brits out in HK come home and drink some decent beer!

[Fly747]

You made the right choice easy, now that we will be paying full NI and tax you are earning more than us at KA on the MAN base.
At the moment the hassle of changing jobs and losing seniority etc outweighs the benefits of leaving KA but the pendulum is slowly shifting.
We now can't chose our crew meals, they keep adding the straws one after another. Then all of a sudden the trickle of leavers will turn into a flood.

[Sandpilot]

How long it takes?

:hmm: How about cost of living in Hong Kong? Allownces??? Like?

Cheers.

[Lowkoon]

Before anyone blasts you for not doing a search, have a look at fragrant harbour wannabes. All the interview stuff is there. The boss says they need 90 guys this year, think you could walk in with 2 heads and get the gig at the moment. (Although if you did have 2 heads, these guys would try and roster you both seperately, and pay you one salary :)).

[BigLebowsky]

Going back to the taxing issues...
Are there any news on the issue?
Has the management been approached regarding the new tax rules?
If so what's their attitude? I know that they say tax is your own problem, but they will have to compensate in some way to keep people happy. Or are they just going to ignore it and hope it goes away (FR style)? What are they like to deal with normally?
At the moment I'm just holding off to see what happens, but it'd be nice to have an inclination on where this is going to go...

[dragon501]

PAYE for FCS, ASL and VETA postponed to April 2008.. (that's what the ladies in Fenwick's told me atleast ;-))

[Karrupted]

And just to keep all those clamouring to join KA up to date,

SCMP today, front page: HK$1m to buy a debenture at an international primary school for the questionable privilege of having your child educated in Hong Kong ... :ooh:

And to quote from the editorial:

"Newly arrived expatriates with children are finding that the education system is struggling to cope with their needs, even when they have financial support from their employers. There is ample anecdotal evidence that people have gone cold on job offers in Hong Kong because they could not find places at suitable schools for their children."

It just gets better and better - no wage rise for 6+ years, and definitely no increase in housing and education allowances despite rampant inflation in these markets, plus the bonus of breathing airborne effluent.

Beam me up Scotty!

PS Spoke to an FO today who calculates that at current training rates it will be 8 years to upgrade for a new joiner.:sad:

[boocs]

Did the above calculation take into account being put on the bottom of the CX seniority list in 4 years time? This would mean a command would then take......??

[dragon501]

Keep the positive stuff coming chaps!!!!

[Lowkoon]

After a week of clear skies, the ****osphere is back... :{

[dragon501]

Must admit... How I enjoyed them christal clear days and arrivals into HKG.....

Gone for another year Im afraid.......

[boocs]

Or until the next World Climate Change Conference is held in HKG :rolleyes:

[Fly747]

Here's another one. If you employ expatriate staff then you must expect them to think in their own currency, they will still have mortgages at home and will wish to save in that currency, to use UK£ as an example.
Joining pay for an FO is 56,992HK$, 6 yrs ago at 10.7 this was £5,326. It would have looked very attractive at the time.
No pay rise since then.
Now at 15.5, this same sum is only £3,677.
Can you spot the difference? Not to mention the inflation that has occured in that time.

[Grumble Joe]

It is really tough. As an expat new joiner F/O I only get approx 6400 GBP (at 15.5 to the pound) pcm after tax - oh sorry, I forgot Dragonair buys my house with some of that. Oh they also pay for some tickets for my family to U.K. with that also. On top of that they give me money to educate my kids in a private school, although it is not the million dollar one. Private medical? nah there was SARS - and maybe MRSA is coming, so of course they are obliged to pay for that.
This Columbian chick says I can walk the streets with her and not get mugged. Naw, I'd be safer in the Old Smoke - maybe my kids would be too? Or perhaps the Algarve?
Please give me a job Easyjet! Or Ryanair - maybe Jetstar, no crime in Sydney I hear.
When is my leave coming up? Stingy, it is nowhere near as much as Easy!
Good luck chaps, I think I will go out for a beer - under the stars.

[sidesteppa]

Impressive maths as I just about get that before tax and I'm not a new joiner. Guess your just doing your first tax return now, so can't really quote your after tax figures yet as you've yet to get your first tax bill with provisional tax included.
New joiner $HK 56992 pm, House purchase @ $HK 44000, = $HK 100992 @ today's rates is GBP 6546 BEFORE tax.
Schooling is 90% of ESF fees so not entirely paid for by KA

[Fly747]

Sorry Grumble Joe but I was using basic salary only for a reason as that is the only valid comparison, the allowances are there cos no-one would could consider the place at all without them.
You need health care cos they aint got the NHS.
You need the school allowance cos your kids aint cantonese so wouldn't do too well in the local school.
You need the travel fund cos your wife aint hanging around in the heat and smog.
You need accomodation allowance cos its very expensive to rent. Yes you can use it to buy but those are the famous golden handcuffs. Property goes down as well as up in HKG you know.
As sidesteppa intimates you won't be smiling quite so much when you get your tax bill cos you aint gonna like it.

[Australia2]

Grumble Joe,

A beer under the stars !!!? ........... not here in the last month you haven't !!

If that is an indication of your "reality" readers beware !!

[HKG Phooey]

Think it was a typo,


"Under the stairs"?

:suspect:

[Pollution IV]

Want more good news...CX refuses to process applications from KA pilots, as it is.. "not in their interest to poach from KA". Thus KA pilots have no status or seniority recognition with CX, nor are they allowed to apply for jobs there - Does this constitute discrimination? So much for CX's Equal Opportunity Employer status!

This ridiculous rationale makes even less sense, not just because CX owns and directly controls KA, but they are employing chaps for Airbus positions who are not Airbus endorsed, many with zero jet time (ex-mil turboprop).

Can someone pls explain how it is not in the interest of CX to employ someone (ie. a KA pilot) who is type rated, with HK licence and valuable China flying experience from a known high quality source, very much in line with their own training system and culture? Bit of a no brainer I would think. Training cost savings significant, no training risk etc. Perhaps they're worried the KA guys won't wear their hats around the airport?

I know KA are short of pilots, however, why not promote FO new joiner employment through KA then to CX mainline? A far better option than 3yrs as an SO. The training timeframe is far shorter (thus cheaper) at KA and it ensures valuable hands on experience is gained quickly via the multiple sector short-hall nature, hence guys will be better equipped for the Capt upgrade ($ savings again).

Are CX and KA working together as the propaganda machine would have us believe, or not? Why has there been no direction on future plans for Pilot integration? Management need to stop treating us like mushrooms.... where's the professional courtesy and morale consideration? A token payrise (if it ever happens) will not be enough to keep many guys here. An improved, fair and equitable career path is what is needed.
Is there anyone with any kind of intelligence and vision driving this ship? :confused:

[Dan Winterland]

There was a 'no poaching' agreement in place before the buyout, so there is even lees liklihood of swapping over now. Both are short of pilots, very short it seems. Recruitment and training resources need to be concentrated on new joiners to the group.

[Lowkoon]

Heard that once you have resigned you hear from across the road very quickly though?

[Australia2]

Lowkoon,

Can you back that up at all, you have me curious ?

Cheers Oz2

[Lowkoon]

Anecdotal from ftc side Australia 2. But think about it. Now that we are part of the group, and they are offering direct entry fo positions, rather than losing 1 airbus pilot from the group completely, they would be stupid not to offer a basing once you resign, not before.... They will certainly chat to you. Theres a free bus that takes you over there every 15 minutes. If you want to leave, and you are interested in a direct entry fo slot, you would be mad not to use it.... They will chat to you, no question. Actually if the DPA got 5 guys a day to get thier log book stamped, and then jumped on the shuttle bus wearing a tie, would be a good laugh... :)

Remember they are taking turboprop drivers for these direct entry fo slots.... Worth a shot if you want it.

[Lowkoon]

Better make that 1 guy a day, almost forgot how hard it was to find guys on a day off around here....:}

[themulleye]

Does anyone know how short KA is of pilots, and the guys that are making it on what type of experience do they have.
I meet all there req listed in there ad in Flight Int but just and I do not have the type rating. Just wondering if I have a hope in hell for and interview.
mulleye :ok:

[HKG Phooey]

Oi Mull

Have you read any of the other posts here.... DONT JOIN DRAGON!

:ugh:

[HKG Phooey]

Hey moderater!


How about a poll...

1. dont join dragon
2. join dragon
3. go to a LCC

Thanks


:\

[sky_is_the_limit]

IS KA still hiring lately? Do they hire non rated on the AB fleet based in HKG?
What are the terms and conditions? What are the rumours about integration with CX in the future? Will that affect a upgrade within KA?
Is it possible to join KA on the Boeing then switch to Airbus and keep seniority?
What is the training like and the overal atmosphere? I could not read too many positive things on pprune is this really the case?
Thanks for the input Dragons
Sky
IF you want PM me with more info! :-)

[joebanana]

I could not read too many positive things on pprune is this really the case?

No we're making it all up. :ugh:

[Fly747]

Hi Sky, Like JB says we're not making it up but of course everyone has a different perspective.
Prior ratings not needed for bus or boeing and big plus here is no bond.
Yes seniority is common so join on boeing and shift across or vice versa.
Who knows about CX integration? It may well affect future upgrade as until now KA has been quicker than CX. Maybe better to join CX and get on their seniority right from the start. But consensus is shifting to CX and/or KA not being the long term option it once was.
Training is good, general atmosphere not so good but that is in relations between management and workers. On the line a good bunch of guys.
If you've got a good job now then don't bother. If you want to upgrade to heavy metal then give it a go.

[Flap 5]

Dragonair is not a career move. It can only be looked at short term to get a rating or build a few hours. It is a chinese operation and the personnel management have no respect for expats. You will not get a pension as any career would normally provide. It is also nowadays poorly paid for the cost of living and especially housing in Hong Kong. Gone are the days of fat salaries where you could save a bit.:hmm:

[Lowkoon]

No Donald, think they are just crunching the numbers on the pay cut the company just offered them. Now theres a morale boost!!! :}

[scubes]

Guys I have just had an offer to join on the classic out of Man. I'm currently an Fo on 777 with BA out of LHR/LGW and my whole reason for applying was that I'm fed up of the commute 4-6 times a month ( apparently we are the worlds hardest working longhaul company at 900 hrs a year). The management talk about honesty and integrity but would sooner sell their mums than help you. Anyway the thought of going to work a couple of times a month to the airport 10 mins away from home then having about a week off when I get home rather than the odd couple of days here and there and going East West with 8hr time changes each way sounded perfect. However grass I am finding out always seems greener.

I distinctly told them in the interview the reason I was looking for a move was because I am fed up with the commute and if I'm going to leave it has to be for the right job. So they offer me the classic which I believe is going to end up in HK doing local flying and the crews are going to be positioned out from Man. I wonder if they actually listened to a word I said. I guess they expect me to give up a 3hr commute to work in favour of a 14hr one. When I basically wrote back I got a reply to explain the situation and calm my fears. It said that the classics would eventually go to HK but MOST of the crews would stay in Man and that there MAY be some positioning to HK but on company or commercial airlines, and that I would be able to bid onto the 400 after a two year type freeze. So in reality I take itsome of the crews will end up in HK permanantly, there will definately be positioning to HK (oh on company or commercial a/c, were they under the impression that i thought I'd be paying for it myself!!) and then I can bid to go to the 400 obviously at the bottom of the pile behind everyone else. Oh and time to command 3-5 years but I can tell from the posts thats not going to be the case.

Anyway I've politely declined, a case of grass seems greener as I say. I do understand that sometimes the time off at home would be considerable and that would be worth its weight in gold to me as I currently find myself recovering from one trip only to get ready for the next but I'm not prepared to give up what I've got for that deal.

I guess people would agree with me I'm better off where I am... yes?

I think what I read earlier is right people aren't moving cos its just as pants everywhere else. Jeese I wish I'd never left Thomas Cook now. Anyone who is thinking of a move think long and hard cos in virtually every case once you've gone you can't go back and slot nicely where you were before. BA told me a pack of lies about pensions and time off cos they knew once they'd got me I couldn't go back unless I wanted to go to the back of the que again and start again on the seniority list I'd just left.

Why did I get into this industry again???
:ugh:

[Flying Mechanic]

why dont you try CX MAN base? I think it can be on the 400 or the classic.

[Glass Half Empty]

funny because cx had an fo who went to ba and now flies the 777. he was man based on the classic - maybe you should speak to him about life!

[Ka-life]

Scubes!
I think you made the right decision. I have been with KA for a few years now and it is just getting out of control. No one can tell you what is going to happen to the 747s. Actually their 3 year plan that they presented last year was shorter than this post...No aircrafts on order either.
I can to 90 percent say that you are better of in BA. If you check with our guys in EU they will tell you that they sometimes have to pick up flights out of AMS and other places...on their own cost. (Keep in mind that it is sometimes easier for the guys as it might be closer to home.)
Out GMO is now trying to get a deal with DPA on this. If this happens you would ending up commuting on your own cost in EU.
Anyway I am pretty sure you did the right thing!

[cabbages]

Without a shadow of doubt scubes youve made the right choice to steer clear of KA. You'll never do a 14hour commute to work on a dragonair aircraft. By the time youve been dicked around in amsterdam and dubai youll have been sat stewing in your seat for at least 24hours. You can then look forward to doing it all again in the reverse direction after a week of flogging up and down the east coast of china at 3am.

[555orange]

Fly 747 wrote:

"You need health care cos they aint got the NHS."
-so...is that bad or good? It seems to me private is better. Always has been.
"You need the school allowance cos your kids aint cantonese so wouldn't do too well in the local school."
-you don't want your kids in a cantonese school. I live in an Asian Country, and even the wealthy Asians who can afford the private schools that KA is paying for send their kids there. My Chinese Cousins go to the American private school. With the local attitudes about schools and competition the local kids go to school up to 16 hours a day. Most emphasis is placed upon memorization and little on social skills and teamwork or team sports. Why do you think Asian kids do so well in Western schools Academically but generally fall down when it comes to teamwork or social skills....So..whats your point 747??? You want to put your kids in a local school?? Most companies around the world don't pay for your kids school either!
"You need the travel fund cos your wife aint hanging around in the heat and smog."
Ya...Los Angeles is much better. Clean Air and cheap electricity ...and drink the water from the tap! Reality Check man....
"You need accomodation allowance cos its very expensive to rent. Yes you can use it to buy but those are the famous golden handcuffs. Property goes down as well as up in HKG you know."
-Jeez...I don't know what to say to you...my company doesnt give me a housing allowance. I have to pay for my house out of my own pocket. Plus my tax rate is about 50%. So why don't you add your house allowance to your salary...that would equate with most people who work at other locals around the world.
"As sidesteppa intimates you won't be smiling quite so much when you get your tax bill cos you aint gonna like it"
-Being that Hong Kong is 15% I believe?? Maybe you think that sucks ... but dude....its alot better than Europe or N.America.

[Loopdeloop]

I would rather be treated in an NHS hospital than the private hospitals in HK, and I've seen a fair bit of both so private medical plan is simply necessary, certainly not a bonus. In fact, if you work for CX then you also need to buy your own gap insurance for spouse and children as the cover Cx offer is inadequate and could leave you with a big medical bill should a problem arise for a dependent.(I don't know if the same is true for KA, but it probably will be soon!)
In your home country private education is a luxury item, in HK it is essential (with a very few exceptions). As such, it certainly isn't a bonus of being an expat. In fact I see it as what we'd call a "stealth tax" in the UK. The company pays either 50% or 75% of basic school costs depending on your children's age. You are taxed on the amount they pay you and you have to top up the costs out of your own pocket.
I have a few friends who live in LA and their family choose to stay there for the summer. I have many friends who live in HK and most of their families choose to go home for the summer if they can. This is a very expensive pastime. Either they still have a house at home that they can use so they're paying an extra mortgage over and above accomodation costs of living in HK throughout the year, or they don't, in which case they have to find somewhere to stay. This is not cheap, particularly in Europe in the summer.
The basic tax rate is about 16% in HK, but once you add on the "stealth taxes", by which I mean the additional costs involved with being an expat, the real cost is very similar. In fact, a fairly extreme example is a friend of mine who had to move back to the UK about 6 months ago simply because he could no longer afford to live in HK. His multiple children now enjoy free schooling and he's paid in stirling so he can afford to pay his mortgage again.
There are benefits to living in HK, but getting rich is not one of them any more!

[555orange]

Great reply. Finally someone who comes to the table with the real goods. Instead this Pprune thing seems to really have too much of sarcasm and negativity, or people who think they are really funny and clever in their comments but are really not. I like the points you put forward. They make sense. So I guess it really comes down to the fact that maybe you can make some money in HKG if your single and you get on the house allowance at the right time before a big value increases. Of course that would be the same as anywhere. I did pretty well with my house back in N America the last 5 years. And its pretty expensive for education in the US....and really expensive if your kids are in sports. In Canada education is cheap if you dont mind your kids in public schools...and to have them play sports is a bit cheaper to. Point is, you pay it all out of your salary. There is NO education allowance, and NO housing allowance. I would love it if my company gave that too me..I would be glad to pay the tax on it!! Really...what a benefit...for a company to give you 8-9k USD to pay your mortgage after a salary of about 100k/year?? Plus only taxed at 16%? I have a great salary in N America at about 90k us/year, and about 40 is taken away by the govt for tax. That leaves me with about 4-5k/mo for disposable. Take out 3000 for your house, 800 for cars, 1000 for misc groceries/bills/etc and you have absolutely nothing left. My wife and I have to watch our pennies every month so we don't spend a dollar more than we make. We save nothing. So forgive me for looking at the deal my friends are always happy to brag about over at Cathay and Dragon...and it looks pretty damn good from where I sit! Any comments???

[And Then]

Dragonair doesn't like North Americans. With the collapsing American dollar this will change as they fail to attract Europeans and their source of traditional cheap labour: Australians and Kiwis.

Actually, with more local pilots deserting on the cards Dragon is in unchartered waters. What does the GMO think of South Americans?

And then there is a pay cut on the table delivered in a beligerent manner. Seven resignations for the last month. What are Eastern Europeans like?

[SIC]

Dragon and CX will have to go the way of China Airlines if they don't want to pay up - that is hire Eastern European and South American guys - who by the way are generally excellent guys. That doesn't take away from the fact that they are truly screwing up the market by being willing to work for so much less....:{

[airbus2boeing]

Don't Hate!:sad:

[Lowkoon]

Orange555, thanks for dropping by and telling us how it is in "The States". We appreciate it. The comparison with a completely different company and aircraft on a completely different route structure in a completely different country, and under completely different economic conditions in a completely different work environment has been extremely helpful. We feel suitably chastised.

The logic of "we do it cheaper, so you need a reality check" has a lot of merit for those willing to lead in the race to the bottom. Im sure the boys in Bangladesh think the same about you and your conditions. Where do you want to draw the line? Good luck in the race. As you Americans say, the KA boys are "ROOTING" for you! :)

Can we please compare apples with apples? The post is about how it is at KA, it may just make some sense to listen to the boys who are there dont you think?

PS, feel free to apply, or do you feel the package isnt good enough to compensate you for dragging you away from your country of birth and your friends and family and dumping you in one of the most polluted environments on earth?

[SIC]

Quoting Lowkoon :

" PS, feel free to apply, or do you feel the package isnt good enough to compensate you for dragging you away from your country of birth and your friends and family and dumping you in one of the most polluted environments on earth?"

Ever heard of the term "hardship post" ... well that was what xpat flying was in Asia and Mideast in the past. Those were the days when you couldn't buy bread or milk in Hong Kong (yes dairy is not part of a chinese diet - neither is baking ) As for the flying - it was harder too due to these parts of the world being less developed at the time.
That's why Cathay and most others paid massive salaries.
Now those days are over and management don't consider you having to leave your home coutry and moving to one of the most polluted environments away from everything you hold dear as a " hardship". The opposite actually - you should be gratefull they even offer you some work - its only due to the fact that they don't have enough local cadets to fill the slots yet.

As a parallel: Dubai is the same now. When they needed expats to develop the place the reward was there - these days foreigners catually WANT to go there so the Emirati attitude is essentialy that if you really want to come to their great country its going to cost you....

[Outtahere]

SIC- perhaps the 'hardship posting' is for the kids. Refer to your posting on the 2 hour trip to school, something of a contradiction to your assertion above.

The hardship for parents is still there- shoebox apartments, kids seeing their grandparents twice a year, filthy air, expensive western supermarket products, communication difficulties. Unless you get off on these sort of things, its still a hardship posting- just different hardships nowadays.

Cx & Ka used to assist with these hurdles. Cheers.

[SIC]

outtahere

I think if you read my posting carefully you might pick up that I agree with you - when I used the word 'was' in referal to hardship I did not mean that hardship is a thing of the past - the opposite actually. I just said that 'management' these days don't see what we do as hardship anymore.

So to me both postings tie up nicely. Logic and all that you know.

[555orange]

Sorry Lowkoon...Not racing you to the bottom of anything.

I suppose the you should trade jobs with one of the boys from "Bangladesh". Boy would they be happy. Or better yet...why don't we lobby for the Bangladesh boys to get a raise??

There is no denying the fact that my company and Dragon could be better...but my points still stand. Hong Kong is not a bad place...if you have a problem with it .. then you are definitely in the wrong place. You don't want your kids in the local education system, and you definitly want the benefit of private health care.

I am, by the way intimitely knowledgeable about Hong Kong and flying over there. I did it for 3 years. And it wasn't that bad. In fact the work is remarkably almost the same. So...I am comparing apples to apples. I have the same job you have now...and I used to have...in N America. I just wish I still had that low tax rate, the house allowance, the 13 month pay, the 15.5% pension payment up front, private health care, and 90% paid private school for my kids.

If you dont like it so much over there, then why don't you vote with your feet! All the N. American carriers are hiring again...sounds like you belong over here ... not over there.

Ohhh...but then you will be complaining about the same things I am now!!:}

[Lowkoon]

Gday 555orange, when I was reffering to different environments, I was reffering to economic. We are in the fastest growing aviation environment on earth, with quarterly growth outstripping annual projections regularly, compared to lumbering inefficient giants preteding to want to come out of the protection of chapter 11. Which airline environment should be paying more? When you guys start competing on an unprotected playing field, and making money, I am sure the staff will want to share in the good times too. I have absolutely no doubt that you guys will not be expecting futher pay cuts like KA is offering us when things get good. That is what this thread is about, not how Ka compares to the US.

I do like Hong Kong. I hate the pollution. The terms and conditions are what they are. Better than some, not as good as others. But if I was looking to join a company, I would listen to people who work there, not someone who isnt or hasnt, and is calling them a pack of spoilt whingers with no concept of how it is in the real world. Im telling you now, all the guys I work with have spent more than their fair share of their working lives in the "real world". I respect your position, and of course you are entitled to it, but its not about the money, thats what these guys are trying to advise potential new hires. T & Cs are only a small part of moving to Hong kong. Good luck with your research. Cheers.

[555orange]

Hey again Kowloon.

Consider my points as my own whining over my tax situation. I do still believe though that I am way more happier being in my own home country. I think I was for a bit... hoping that things were good over there because in some ways I miss flying over there. But the reality is that in Hong Kong, the labor laws always favour the company not the employee. The employee will aways get the shaft. I would like to come back over,,but I have measured over the last month and have come to the very strong conclusion that its better being in a Western country with the higher taxes. In the long run, you will do much better. Its fun to go out and taste the world, but in my opinion, having been there and done that...anyone considering going to hong kong....forget it. Focus on the good local co's. Yes the tax is higher, but there are alot more benefits that far outweigh what is happening to our colleagues in Hong Kong. As I mentioned on the Cathay post, SOLIDARITY is what hong kong need and that is where I believe the guys over there need to work on. If they can become stronger as a group, maybe they can start to move the company into a direction where fairness is not just a word. When you get a pref bidding system for rosters...maybe then I will take another look. Till then...I will stay put. Good luck Kowloon, and to all who make the move!

[Mr. Bloggs]

When we become stronger as a group, they just fire pilots and it allllllll comes tumbling down.:sad:

[Lowkoon]

Gday 555Orange. Think you are making the right choice by staying put. As for a preferential bidding system for rosters, not likely any time soon. Not sure the network has any great destination choices either! Maybe a rostering agreement will eventuate, but you will have to wait for a change in management first.

One thing KA does have is solidarity, courtesy of some idiot offering us a decrease in pay for more work.

Mr Bloggs, we a are under no illusions of grandure, we have no doubts that the GMO has an itchy trigger finger, he would like nothing more than to repeat history by making a few examples of some crew, our only saving grace is their inability to get crewing levels right.

Is it just me, or could have all this unpleasantness have been easily avoided by putting the 744 on b scale? At the moment, he is spending an absolute fortune to save face it would seem, surely someone over the road is keeping an eye on this situation? Wonder if he will still think he is right, and singing the praises of the HKRO when the last HKRO has left for Oasis, or bidded back to the airbus? :rolleyes: