Virgin Blue EBA II (Poll)

[TightSlot]

For discussion of the Virgin Blue EBA

[sinala1]

Tightslot thanks for setting up that poll for us, very much appreciated...

So folks interesting so far - I wonder how close to form this will be, like the pilots one was?

[ak3141]

Having read the EBA several times, attended the roadshows and listened to various opinions from cabin and flight crew, I'll be voting no.

Why?

1. There are many provisions in the new EBA that allow less than desirable working conditions (see this post (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3189085&postcount=356) for more). Management's spin is that they are reserved for exceptional circumstances, however these circumstances are NOT outlined in the EBA. It wasn't too long ago that I heard the same spin applied to the 4 crew complement only being used in exceptional circumstances (ie. mid-duty sickness). Now it's being applied to every flight on an 800... I haven't forgotten this yet..

2. Virgin Blue achieved a whopping 38% increase in productivity per cabin crew member on all 800 flights. I'll let you think about this one for a while...

3. I'm already tired working 4 sector 9.5 hour days. I can't imagine working a 9.5 hour day with 6 or more sectors, turnarounds and repeated change in altitude. Fatigue management?? :D

4. <Warning: speculative rant> How much do our department heads earn annually? How much will their bonuses be? What kickbacks and offers have those working on the EBA been given if it is passed?

[Ol Shep]

I’ve now read your pre-Workchoices EBA on www.wagenet.gov.au (http://www.wagenet.gov.au/) and the proposed EBA on the FAAA website. Kittyblue, is your Flight Crew member ‘respected opinion’ knowledgeable in how the IR laws affect flight attendants? Did you know that pilots are protected by different parts of law for the way they work if their current EBA is rescinded? I hope the respected opinion is balanced and not biased. I noticed they didn’t compare it to the current EBA so this is where many of the comments made don’t actually change things for you if you vote no.

I recently stood by and watched the flight attendants union go into bat for a friend of mine who was on an unfair workplace agreement. Everything that the union said about the laws was correct-I had researched it. Pilots were in negotiations the same time as the flight attendants the pilots' pay and conditions were protected differently, the flight attendant union officer knew this too. Because of the greater protections for pilots, the pilots’ new workplace agreement was superior to the flight attendants but the agreement for flight attendants with the union’s help was 1000% better than before. A word of caution-when 'so called' experts tell you that your union is going to ‘sell you out’, ask yourself has this person seen your union in action? Remember the union is the only group of people who has provided you duty hour limits and rest minimums-your respected Flight Crew member certainly hasn’t and neither has the government. CASA couldn’t give a flying you know what about flight attendants or engineers, it only ‘protects’ or regulates pilots. The 140 hour limit in your pre-Workchoices EBA is only there because of your union.

"It excludes all state laws …..". Why? What about unfair dismissal laws – which are not covered …

Federal (not State) unfair dismissal provisions apply at law so you’re protected. I hate to say it but if this ‘respected opinion’ didn’t know that, then they don’t seem to be very qualified or knowledgeable about the old or the new laws. By the way, did you know that John Howard is winding up the State Industrial Relations Commissions with his new IR laws?

What is the definition of the term unreasonable?
At law, this is the ‘reasonable man’ test, there’s plenty of precedent law/awards etc. to protect you I would imagine. Just ask your union reps.

I personally would like a choice in saying no to over time (not everyone wants it remember) and there's no choice if 6.2.1 applies.
Welcome to Workchoices-mandatory reasonable overtime for 0 pay is the law now. What’s reasonable weekly/fortnightly overtime for a flight attendant, well I’m sure there’s precedent on this-your union is going to hold the key here for precedents. However, the way I read the new EBA, you’ll ONLY EVER BE FORCED to do the 10 extra hours of overtime per roster if the final duty on your roster is 10 hours or less. What is the chance of this happening? It would most likely have to be a single duty because most overnight duties are greater than 10 hours in total. To me it looks like the union has been clever in its overtime avoidance scheme!

Is the 5 hours duty credit in addition to the possible 135 hours I have been rostered? is my overtime to 140 hours (clause 6.4.2.b) including the 5 hours propel? Could I be doing 140 hours plus 2 days training(2x9 hours not including paxing!) plus 5 hours propel (total 163) plus all the extra time I spend at work to do my job well in 28 days?
Your new EBA is very clear-“flying rosters WILL be built to 125-135 duty credit hours”, therefore it has to include the 5 duty credit hours for the performance monitoring duty otherwise these would be considered non credit hours. This would mean worse case scenario:

130 hours flying+5 hours perf monitoring duty+18 hours non credit training+5 hours mandatory overtime as per Workchoices=158 in 28 days in ONE or TWO rosters a year.

The fatigue avoidance scheme says you are safe up to 210hrs in 28 days rolling with an average of 8 days off per roster, so when you get non credit training, you look back over the past 26 days see how many work hours you did and look ahead at the next 26 days.

1680 (140x12rosters) is currently the max hours we can do in a year that we have control over (ie denom avails) ,

1820 (140x13rosters)is the hours proposed, but then there's the addition of 5 training days up to 9 hours, bringing it to 1901 hours.
These calculations are not quite accurate or balanced:

Work Hours Guaranteed Duty Free Days Off
1470 (140x10.5rosters) 105 (10x10.5) - 24 poss draft = 81DFD’s
[10.5 due to annual leave] [you could also add DFD’s after 140 reached to DFD total]

1598 (135x11.5rosters+45) 110 (10x11.5-5) - 12 draft = 98DFD’s
[rare to be forced to 140] [you could also add OPT days to DFD's]

If they answered your concerns, ask yourself this - are their answers that you seemed to be pleased with written in the EBA, or is it just managements/FAAAs word?
By law, any explanation given by the company or the FAAA is able to be relied on further down the track-this is the law. This includes explanations given in the roadshows or in written explanations. Both management and the union must explain what you are voting on before you vote, so therefore anything they tell you must hold up if there is any dispute later.

[vista]

Ol Shep,

As a Pilot and having studied the new workchoices rules (as well as the old IR laws that currently protect the cabin crew), I am perplexed as to what extra protection we have over the cabin crew ; I would say none.

I do not know what your agenda is, but it is not for the good of the cabin crew and your views do not represent the majority of pilots.

In terms of trusting your union, we have recently been shown a court case in which our union appears to admit they have put themselves before us

http://www.airc.gov.au/documents/Transcripts/050307d200658.htm

PN 1300 onwards.

As for the DFD's, you forgot to mention the company only has to achieve 8/month over a three month rolling roster, so I think in the worst case (as everything seems to be at the moment), your DFD's are way out.

[wirgin blew]

Kitty Blue: Thanks for that post. I have read what you have said and spoken to the flight crew who prepared that document. It changed my mind back to my original opinion which is that it is no. The EBA is too grey. If the company decides to come back to the table after an overwhelming no vote then perhaps we can get a few of the grey areas ironed out and have a bit more say in what is put in the document.
I am concerned that crewing are the people who will control our lives with this document not CC Management who are just looking for ways to increase productivity at as little cost as possible.
Its all good and well to tell us in the railroad shows that we should be seeing the positive side of things but it is crew that have crewing on the phone telling us to just extend our 12 hour day by 2 hours to help them out when we all know good and well that if we need a favour, "I cant help you" is normally the answer.
We are the "face" of VB and should be looked after accordingly.

[Ol Shep]

Vista

Several extra protections exist for pilots over cabin crew-one case in point-the law which sets out the minimum rest pilots must have following flight duty times where an agreement is silent or rescinded? CAO48 regulates this for pilots. What protects cabin crew? Under the old IR laws, Awards were used as a safety net for cabin crew and for pilots it was Awards or CAO48. Under the new IR laws there is no Standard for rest between flight duties for cabin crew and yet pilots can still rely on CAO48 for their minimum. Have you seen any cabin crew AWA's under the old IR laws or the new laws? Rest and daily flight duty limits are not necessarily included in the agreement. Cabin crew can get treated the same as an office worker-an average 38 hour week plus overtime as required. They have come a long way ahead with their Awards, don't you think they should protect what they have and build on it rather than be forced to a new minimum thanks to Howard?

Another protection that springs to mind is contained in the transcript link you gave-it refers to a 'pay dispute'. If pilots want to dispute what they get paid under the new IR laws, the Aust Fair Pay Commission will set a benchmark way above the minimum wage. But what about cabin crew-who will help them?-not the Fair Pay Commission or the Office of Employment Advocate that's for sure. The IRC state or federal can't even help anymore, Howard made sure of that.

My agenda is to pass on first hand knowledge of what can happen to flight attendants, what's yours? The VIPER issue is not for this forum. What is your advice for the good of cabin crew? Stay under the old IR laws where you stand still or get a new minimum, or move to the new IR laws and be way above the Aust Fair Pay Commission Standard and 20% better off in pay increases than the current EBA rates. Kittyblue's Flight Crew advisor critiques the new EBA clause by clause-I'm sure the critique represents the view of the majority of pilots-yet the majority of the criticisms which are highlighted in the list are clauses which are already contained in the current EBA. The advice presented is a contradiction. The advice suggests to vote No and take refuge in the curent EBA, yet most of the criticisms are against the current EBA(!?). For the good of Cabin Crew I recommend they compare the current EBA against the new one or if you don't have time take it to someone who can make a comparative analysis taking the old and new IR laws into account.

You forgot to mention that cabin crew can nominate to work on their duty free days (optional days and days off by definition) which means that it is the crew who Choose to go down to 8 on average or minimum 7 in a roster. They are guaranteed 10 days off in a roster and can only be Forced down to 9 worse case by Drafting.

[crewbus]

Seems to be a lot of NO voters out online. Which way is everyone feeling the vote will go?

[EBA_Babylon]

I voted today- I feel so liberated.:)

[EBA_Babylon]

Yes Virgin has definately been responsbile for eroding conditions of the industry in Oz, granted a business needs to make money to remain viable and conditions pre Virgin were probably not sustainable. Now the hint of a new low cost carrier, no wonder Mr Godfrey has been so passionately spreading the word of his uniquely termed 'new world carrier', so as to distinguish it so he can launch a truly 'low cost carrier'. Already Virgin has set the precedent in reducing cabin crew ratios', so of course Jetstar and Qantas will follow suit to remain competitive. The so called 'they can copy our business but not copy our culture' rhetoric virgin drums home in its training and induction programs will disappear quickly if it continues to pursue more from their staff for less rewards and conditions.

Interesting quote from thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=264908

It's the last sentence that seems relevent to current EBA discussions....

[vista]

Ol Shep,
The cabin crew currently use the basis of CAO 48 because the company does not have a proper fatigue monitoring system in place and requires the CAO 48 rules for it’s own protection from legal action (Occupational health and safety laws).
You say that the pilots have better pay protections, think again. On paper they may appear higher, but if the company was to implement the minimum wage, VB would only be able to crew about 6 aircraft. Simple supply and demand and the same stands for the cabin crew. You might be able to get applicants for $13.oo/HR, but as I’m sure your aware, we have a high turnover with the current wages and conditions and this would prove fatal to the longevity of the company.
Do you really think this company would offer more than the minimum they believe they have to?
Why the glossy brochure and DVD if the EBA was that good?
As for the VIPA (not VIPER) issue, the transcripts I was referring to are about how the company has manipulated the AFAP to get what they want and from the comments by Bruce Highfield under oath, it is quite conceivable that the same has been done with the FAAA. Because they have done a good job in the past does not automatically mean they are now.

[Ol Shep]

Vista

The flight attendant AWA's or awards I've seen which use CAO 48 and CASA exemptions as the basis quote the correct reference. Which fatigue monitoring system should the oh and s ombudsman enshrine for Virgin flight attendants? The flight attendants are protected not because of oh and s laws or inspectors looming down but because they have fought for what they want in their awards or agreements. On AWA’s it is harder to fight or bargain, the law is stacked in employers' favour.

I did think again about what you said and I checked the law as well-qualified pilots can dispute the minimum wage if put on paper. For unqualified employees, and the government lumps flight attendants into this category, the federal law is not protective.

I think companies will offer the lowest wages and rules as possible if they can get away with it. It is more conceivable that companies manipulate government to make decisions swing 100% in their favour and make employees powerless wherever possible. It's easy to make an accusation on a forum, but why don't you test your manipulation theory by talking directly with the people who did the negotiating?

[EBA_Babylon]

First of all, thanks to all (whether cc or not) for the advice in this forum.

Ol Shep-

You seem to have a vested interest in pointing out to cabin crew that this proposed EBA is the best on offer, that should the outcome be no, we'll all be on minimum wage before we know it.

Would it be rude for me to ask why you feel so strongly to spend so much time writing posts to convince, almost scare crew into voting yes because of the new IR laws? If you're on our side maybe pointing out a few of the negaitives of the proposed EBA to help give a balanced view?

You also make mention of:
I've seen it happen to all the staff-ground staff & flight attendants-in another airline.

which airline?

I agree with you on this one though: get sound advice and stick together

[lowerlobe]

-I admit I am surprised by Ol Shep's comments...

"By law, any explanation given by the company or the FAAA is able to be relied on further down the track-this is the law...This includes explanations given in the roadshows "..

Firstly,you would have to prove in a court of law that certain information was actually given.It would be of no use at all if you simply said "the company said this or that".Unless you have it in writing and from a person legally able to represent the company you might as well whistle dixie.

You would have to have or be able to supply a signed and ratified document stating ..whatever..

Even if you had a recording device AND you had informed the company that you would be doing so I doubt it would stick.You might embarass the company but thats about it.

As far as whatever the FAAA tells you at thr roadshows is even more irrelevant.Their opinion is what they interpret the company's actions and documents as meaning and the company is under no obligation whatsoever to do what the FAAA THINKS the company intentions were whether that is stated or inferred.

Unless a clause says something like "under no circumstance will a crew member be required to work more than "X" hours including training,ep's etc,," then you would have to accept the fact that the company will try and push their side of the interpretation if given the need.

[Ol Shep]

EBA Babylon

I have no vested interest-I am not pro-management or pro-union, I am pro-family. When family income and family time can be affected by the result of a new agreement, it's a good idea to look at it from all angles-what voting Yes produces and what voting No produces. If the new IR laws scare you, and they should, then you are in good company with other workers who have already been affected.

Naturally, there are negatives in the agreement, like every other agreement out there. In your new agreement you can be called out to do 13 or 14 hour duty, other domestic flight attendants can be rostered, yes rostered, a 13 or 14 hour duty. If the majority think it's worth fighting, then I'm sure you'll all get ready to do what it takes.

Wise words from ShesGreatintheGalley:


I think every EBA we get is never going to be as good as the current one, due to the change in the whole airline industry, so although hold out for what you want, dont go in with unrealistic expectations - the airline will want some kind of cost reduction.. every airline does.

[EBA_Babylon]

Pro family is me to a tee. I, having a family of my own to support, am concerned with the amount of work that comes with this EBA, and the lack of choice to say no. A huge assumption has been made that 'we' all want more hours/overtime. Ask any cc right now whether they feel over worked (not underpaid) and i can almost bet 4 out of 5 full timers will say yes.

I know 'other' domestic hosties can be rostered longer shifts than us presently, but look closer at thier "domestic routes" on what aircraft and how rests are planned.

I agree the industry is changing. Of course they want cost reduction- 4 crew on an 800 is just one example, we work hard and long to give them this enormous cost saving, of course we had no choice but still we did it (perhaps crew complement should have been mentioned in our current EBA).

I want, like many, to protect my employment as it is in my long term plans to still be with our airline long past this new EBA's proposed expiry. But it doesn't mean I think this EBA is good for crew. The PBS however, is great, and seems to be the basis to all the roadshow positives.

What I do think is that this proposed document is a great template which we can work together to come to a happy medium or stay put on our current EBA.

[ak3141]

You seem to have a vested interest in pointing out to cabin crew that this proposed EBA is the best on offer, that should the outcome be no, we'll all be on minimum wage before we know it.

It does seem that way doesn't it? :suspect:

[320subria]

Has voting finished for the EBA? Does anyone have an idea of when we will find out the results?

[737NG_Girl]

Voting closes 3pm tomorrow (monday), results soon after that I guess?

Thinking it might get through... came across loads of Yes voters on this last trip.

What I found most distressing, and hoping is false allegations, is that CT from the FAAA is telling members that if we vote No then we can be forced onto minimum wage and max hours after 90 days. I overheard a CS telling my CS this today, and another crewmember said she was told the same thing.

IF this is what CT has been saying (and I stress *IF* - I have not heard these words from CT myself), then it destroys any small lingering shred of integrity the FAAA had, and I will tell them they can stick their membership in an appropriate orifice. Its comprehensively untrue - you cannot be forced off the current agreement and onto an AWA. DR himself said we would stay on the current agreement if a no vote comes through, and they would try to find out why the no vote happened.

Can anyone provide clarification? Has CT really been saying this, or has the info been twisted in a chinese-whispers type scenario?

D-day looms........ :bored:

[Ol Shep]

Good luck for the results of your vote.

B737NG Girl, you might be interested to read some info on the expired agreement on another thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=268087&page=3 (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=268087&page=3) -see SM4 Pirate posts.

[737NG_Girl]

https://www.workchoices.gov.au/ourplan/publications/html/WorkChoicesandemployeecollectiveagreements.htm

The Workplace Relations Act makes it unlawful for someone to coerce a person into making a collective agreement, or to make false or misleading statements so that a person agrees to make a collective agreement.


Roadshow, anyone? A few things were said at roadshows that were proven by participants to be direct lies (one such case is a question that was asked of a delegate if 4 sector BNE-MEL's can be done under the new EBA. His response was "No, they can not" but a person who was there proved that such a duty could be done) - that is false/misleading information.


Wages and conditions following termination
If an agreement made under WorkChoices is unilaterally terminated, employees will be covered by the Australian Fair Pay and Conditions Standard (the Standard) and protected award conditions (see next column).
If an agreement is unilaterally terminated by an employer or an employer’s bargaining agent, employees will also be covered by any redundancy provisions that were in the terminated agreement for a maximum period of 12 months. For more information about redundancy following unilateral termination of an agreement by an employer, see the ‘WorkChoices and preservation of redundancy entitlements’ fact sheet.
In addition, if an agreement is terminated with 90 days’ notice the employer can provide voluntary undertakings to their employees about the terms and conditions of employment above these minimum conditions. Such undertakings will need to be lodged with the OEA and will be enforceable.

The way I interpret this is that it refers only to Collective Agreements formed under Workchoices Legislatio, which our current one was not. I am going to contact the Helpline tomorrow to confirm this, but I am of the strong (but open to education from the Workchoices helpline) understanding that we cannot be forced off the current agreement.

[Brisvegasboy]

We cannot be forced off the current agreement - this is simply scaremongering.....

I know of no definite yes voters - quietly confident it will be a no vote - crew in this job for a long term career will come through - see you on the other side guys.....

Bvb:ugh:

[sinala1]

Bad bad news folks

After reading last nights posts from 737NG_Girl, I too decided to contact the Workchoices helpline. I was told that even though our current agreement was made under the Workplace Relations Act and lodged with the AIRC, because its passed its nominal expiry date VB can apply to the AIRC to have it terminated :eek: :*

The girl could not tell me what the AIRC's process would be from there (ie would it involve consultation with the FAAA, the Cabin Crew body etc) but either way its very f:mad:cking bad news

[Ol Shep]

AIRC helpline 1300 799 675 confirmed an employer can apply to OEA under section 393 of Workchoices-90 days notice.

[ak3141]

Don't believe the hype. You cannot be forced onto adverse conditions. You always have a choice - even if that choice means resigning, you still have a choice.

Whether a no vote will prompt the company to engage in further discussions to determine why the proposed EBA was voted down or prompt them to pursue other options is anybodys guess. However, that is all it is, just a guess. What I do know is that it is not in the company's best interests to put such an integral resource to their daily operations offside.

There simply aren't enough resources available to train enough cabin crew to cover a large drop in available crew should there be a large number of resignations or an organised strike. No crew means no flights and even a 20% drop in available resources would affect daily operations.

I will wait for the outcome after the results are in and will make my decision about staying with the company when the time comes. In the meantime, in the interests of preserving the health and well-being of cabin crew, I will not bow down to the fear of Workchoices and vote this EBA in :=

[smile]

I have just been informed (by a very reliable source) that the results are in…………

Drum roll please………


Yes votes = 123

No votes = 992

[ak3141]

I have just been informed (by a very reliable source) that the results are in…………

Drum roll please………


Yes votes = 123

No votes = 992

If your source is correct, that's an 89% no vote.

[Zig Zag]

The Eba Was Voted Down...88.97% Cop That !!!

[EBA_Babylon]

At the close of the voting period today a significant majority (88.97%) of Cabin Crew have voted to reject the proposed EBA.

[smile]

Can I suggest now that everyone puts in writing to both cabin crew management and the FAAA EXACTLY what they are after. Let them know what is important to you. Tell them what they got right in the EBA and what they got wrong.

[Brisvegasboy]

Fantastic! Thankfully there are enough crew out there who realised what a bad deal it was and could see thru the glitz and glamour presented.

Don't let your guard down now guys.....round one over, round two is next....

I agree with Smile - if we can't stay on our current EBA, let's let them know what we did and didn't like in the document.

Bvb:D

[737NG_Girl]

EBA Mythbusters
Friday 30th March, 2007

As many Cabin Crew members are aware, a 6 page document from a 'well meaning' Flight Deck member has been circulated. While we choose not to deal with the document clause-by-clause, should any crew member need clarification about points in the document you are most welcome to contact any of your Delegates or FAAA industrial staff. Alternatively, you can email me at ****@****.com.au (edited out prior to posting)

Clearly the document has been written by someone not privy to the negotiations, who only has a basic understanding of the industrial conditions and work carried out by Cabin Crew and who has admitted the document sets out their 'opinion' only. As such perhaps, they should stick to what they know, i.e. flying the aircraft and leave it to Cabin Crew who know their own job best.

The Flight Deck member admitted in the document that the proposed new EBA had not been compared with your existing Agreement. This should raise some serious concerns in the minds of all Cabin Crew because an outsider who has gone to the trouble to write a lengthy 'opinion' didn't even have the respect to compare the current with the new EBA. Derogatory comments, well meaning or otherwise, from outsiders such as "if the FAAA Representative sells you out", is not only unfounded but offensive. In all our Newsletters, Q&As as well as the Roadshows, your Association has presented you with factual information, sometimes in the face of strong criticism. We've answered you openly and honestly in every question you have raised to allow you to make an objective decision regarding your vote.

As outlined previously, we have recommended you support the new EBA and we continue to do so on the basis that we genuinely believe the new EBA, which Cabin Crew alongside industrial staff actually negotiated for you, is superior than your existing Agreement on many levels. For those crew who have voiced concerns or took the opportunity to attend a Roadshow or phone/email us detailed questions, the feedback we've received from you is that you feel more confident with the Agreement as a package and/or making an informed decision.

Finally, members should be absolutely confident that whether you support the Agreement or otherwise, your interests are always our first priority.

R**** W****
FAAA Virgin Blue Delegate
and Divisional President
I find this email insulting to both the Pilot and Cabin Crew groups, particularly As such perhaps, they should stick to what they know, i.e. flying the aircraft and leave it to Cabin Crew who know their own job best. We are allowed to research whichever methods we choose when making a decision regarding the way we voted - emails like this are condescending and belittling to Cabin Crew & Pilots alike.

The result I think surprised all of us - with 87% of pilots voting no, and 89% of Cabin Crew that voted choosing to vote No, it sends a strong message of discontent from the front line.

Finally, members should be absolutely confident that whether you support the Agreement or otherwise, your interests are always our first priority.
Now is the FAAA's chance to prove it.

[737NG_Girl]

In response to the above post, I recieved this via PM (with permission to Quote from it):

As a company pilot who has probably flown with you I want to say well done for a great response. The Captain in question was only trying to help undo some of the company propoganda and it obviously helped.

It's been reported he's been repremanded by our management for helping the EBA get voted down.

Another rumour doing the rounds is that B** H**field has resigned, so that's good news.

I think it would be good if you guys break free from the FAAA and form your own organisation. There is no doubt in my mind they are aligned with the company and must be getting some sort of compensation. It is insulting to think you are paying them for the privelege of them conspiring with the company to cut your conditions.

We have a group called VIPA that have started to really pose a threat to the AFAP. After years of the AFAP conspiring with the company, they seem to have changed thier tune dramatically. They are obviously threatened.

Have a look at vipanet.net for more info if you're interested. Maybe a VIAA could be started.

[avery]

Now, I'm p:mad:ssed off!

I've known the flight-deck member in question for 12 years now, and to be totally honest - I don't think there is a more trustworthy, conservative, well-intentioned man to be found. To blame him (and that is what's happening) for the overwhelming no vote is to avoid responsibility by shifting the focus from the woeful document onto an easy scapegoat.

How could his photocopied opinions be what 'convinced' nearly 1000 crew to vote no, especially when this was pitted against all kinds of glossy, polished propaganda - roadshows, dvds, posters, brochures etc and not to mention the loads of scare-mongering that went hand-in-hand with them?!?

What will it take for management to open their eyes and take some responsibility for what's going on? And don't get me started on the associated unions and their recent performances or lack thereof....

[sinala1]

Hmmmmmm :hmm:

I am not a union member, but am very very disappointed to read that email. It says alot about the union, and reinforces my reasons for not being a member.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Man, EBA time in any airline is a priceless thing to observe...

To begin with:
1) I'm only generally familiar with your old (current) EBA; and
2) I have barely bothered to delve into your new one.

Those that know me here (and at Jet* Domestic) know my union background. And, on that basis, I'm more than happy to be considered biased. At any rate, I like to think my opinion is well balanced, and my responses here generally non-emotive.

Now then...I read with great interest you voted down your agreement. Irrespective of your view, it's now time to move forward as a COLLECTIVE, and let your negotiating team know what you really want from this EBA.

Interestingly , your pilots have weighed into the debate (oh how FORTUNATE for everyone!). My, lets thrill at their industrial knowledge of the working flight attendant.

As far as RW is concerned, I agree with the newsletter 100% - this is a matter for CABIN CREW to deal with. Outside input - particularly from other areas such as the pilot fraternity - CAN be helpful. In this case, it would seem, the input has been misinformed.

737NG-Girl. you state:
"We are allowed to research whichever methods we choose when making a decision regarding the way we voted - emails like this are condescending and belittling to Cabin Crew & Pilots alike."

Yes, by all means you use whatever resources you feel necessary. Actually, there was little in RW's newsletter that I considered to be belittling . Clearly, like any rep, the last thing you want is people - who have NO interest in the voting or outcome of the EBA - influencing the outcome based on misinformation. RW by all accounts, calls a spade a spade.

Your pilots do, after all, fly the aircraft, and as I understand, have always operated to a different EBA than you - so why the sudden interest? :hmm:

Another pearler...
"I think it would be good if you guys break free from the FAAA and form your own organisation. There is no doubt in my mind they are aligned with the company and must be getting some sort of compensation. It is insulting to think you are paying them for the privelege of them conspiring with the company to cut your conditions."

Oh yes - because Jet* pilots did this, didn't they, and they won SO much as a result! :rolleyes: Like flying an A330 for much the same as an A320! Yeah...great job. Another win!

I especially like the bit about the FAAA being 'aligned' with the company. This hoary little chestnut always makes the appearance, with the threat of libel always lurking in the corners. Proof is one thing - innuendo is another.

I love the touch of how it's "insulting to think you are paying them for the privelege (sic)" - insulting for WHOM exactly...seems this pilots knickers are well and truly knotted, for someone who's not even able to VOTE on the EBA!

What I'd really like to know - as an interested outsider - is how much this pilot (like many others) actually know about the two EBA comparisons. Have the commenting pilots actually read the documents, and considered the operational outcomes, themselves - or have they instead listened to 'opinion' rather than fact. Ignorance masking itself as knowledge is a dangerous thing.

As I mentioned before, I haven't read much of the now defeated EBA, so at any rate, it's back to the drawing board. Any emotive opinion now is worth zero - the key is outlining what you didn't like, vs what you do.

As for the tripe about VIPA (blah blah blah), let the pilots do their thing. I don't profess to even know how their EBA operates - but at least I'm honest enough to admit it.

In closing, ask yourself this...in all the years of flight attendants (and hostesses before that) in this country, why has the FAAA as it stands today the only union that represents crew in this country?

Others have tried (eg. TWU) in years gone by, and failed - again, ask yourself why? And ask yourself why as a niche employee group (whose members only exist in airlines, in a specific job catgeory) they have 5000-odd members across all the airlines?

You know - you could spend years - literally years - bleating "I don't like the FAAA for this" blah blah blah...but it won't get you anywhere.

Better start putting your heads together guys - you've got another EBA to negotiate...and your team could use all the feedback it needs.

I wonder just how many Cabin Crew have been just as concerned about the Pilot's EBA terms and conditions...:*

[Ol Shep]

One obvious point, RW's email was written before the vote closed on the 2nd? So who is blaming who?

Trustworthy, conservative people don't usually make public statements like reps for another group must be receiving compensation or would sell out their constituents(!?).

Rather than blame, you've made your own very public statement. Now you have the perfect opportunity to put yourself in your reps' shoes, better still stand with them and work out your next move together. Don't forget advice is a must.

[KittyBlue]

Its imperative that we return to the table, (leaving the ugh behind from the last discussion) and resolve these concerns that the CC have to complete this EBA. Holding grudges and hang ups is not going to allow us to move on at all. Yes we have more knowledge and have more information biased or not, and this is where the negotiations begin, informing the CC management what the proposed changes are needed from the previous document and the next proposed/amended EBA. Yes this EBA has been dragging on for a long time, maybe to the detriment to the company and outselves in the cabin. It may have been the lack of management from our previous cc manager, thou we have someone who does listen now( he has made some great changes eg. CCOS), thou maybe we are being possible to misunderstand, lets make it not possible to misunderstand. Lets actually be proactive and not reactive.

What you think?

[lowerlobe]

The bottom line is that nearly 90% of crew voted NO.

This means you have given both the company and the FAAA a strong and clear message.Now you have to tell the FAAA what it is that you want in any new negotiation.The FAAA represents you and as such should listen to what you say not dictate to you what you need.

It does not matter if someone else within the company wants or tries to give you advice.it is really no different from the company telling you what they believe is to be the best offer.It is up to you whether to build on that advice or reject it.

Don't be surprised at what messages you get from the union and the company because they have just had a slap in the face and no one particularly likes that.

[ccguy]

The worst part of this EBA issue is that those who believed that the EBA fitted their lifestyle and OPENLY admitted that they are voting YES were immediately considered to be part of the dark side and were publicly dissed for wanting the EBA voted in. On many occasions I found myself in situations where some staff would get aggressive and very defensive because of how I felt about the EBA. I can't believe that I am working with people who are like this. I just want to come to work, have a good time doing what I am doing and have more of a say in how my roster is constructed, and I believe that this is what the new EBA would have given me. At the moment, I try and bid for morning starts and get all evening starts, I very rarely get the bids that I ask for and I find this very annoying. I do believe that the new PBS that management were telling us about that would come with the new EBA would have given me a better choice of roster.

Also another thing that I found interesting about what 737NG_Girl said was this:

We are allowed to research whichever methods we choose when making a decision regarding the way we voted

In earlier post that I listed in the last thread about the EBA, I was dissed by poster "crewbus" for seeking further clarification of the EBA with an independent outsider (namely my partner). I agree, we should be able to speak to others to seek clarification etc, but just make sure that these people have access to the old and new EBA information ensuring that the information given is informed information and not just onesided.

I for one am one of the minority who thought that this EBA would have worked just fine if voted in. All I can hope is that we do get a second chance at the EBA. Just remember, how many NO votes will Virgin Blue accept before a decision is made to put an end to all of this. No EBA will contain everything that every Cabin Crew member wants. Remember, it is business. We need to have a bit of give and take or we may have another Ansett on our hands. Consider job security and having a pay packet to take home every fortnight.

Here's to a quick and satisfactory resolution.

[ak3141]

The final count clearly reflects that only 11% of cabin crew felt this EBA suited them and it is unfortunate that this small group were targeted for having a different view. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and we all have a duty to respect this.

On a side note, the company did state that the new PBS would be introduced irrespective of the voting result. The only difference is that they would have endeavoured to have it in place within 6 months after the new EBA came into effect.

[Big Hairy Potatoes]

ak3141 you said:
Quote:
On a side note, the company did state that the new PBS would be introduced irrespective of the voting result. The only difference is that they would have endeavoured to have it in place within 6 months after the new EBA came into effect.
This is correct, however the efficiency of the system will be greatly diminished due to to the new work rules not being introduced. The system will not be as effecient using the old rules and the % of successful bids and the style of bids will not be much better than is currently in place as there is no flexibility within the current work rules.
The new work rules blended with the new bidding system would have allowed us to build our own roster. Now I'll just pop in my bids as per normal and get exactly what I didn't want as per usual.

[avery]

Constructive debate is healthy and as has been said, everyone has the right to an opinion without being abused/harassed. The FAAA is bigger than an individual person and should be able to withstand criticism - it is paid by its members to do a job. With nearly 90% of crew unhappy with the proposed EBA, it really should just be a matter of back to the drawing board and attempting to work with the company on an agreement that most crew can live with. I do find blaming one individual for the result a bit rich and a cop-out.

I think the pilots are interested in the Cabin Crew EBA for a number of reasons, the main one being, they feel they have been unnecessarily shafted (for want of a better word) by management and wanted to ensure that the same thing didn't happen to the CC. They were also concerned about the massive amount of 'pro EBA' propaganda and the scaremongering going on and wanted CC to ensure they were happy with what they were voting on.

I don't really see any sinister motives, apart from keeping an eye out for other work-colleagues, which ultimately is a positive thing, isn't it? And Ol Shep, being a pilot yourself, I think you will find it hard to disagree with my opinion on your colleague in question, when you find out who it is.

VB don't have the correct number of crew for the PBS to work properly, so you probaly wouldn't have got what you wanted anyway. It's not simply a matter of voting in some new work rules and everyone will be happy - it has to all been done correctly and is the company willing and able to do that? Let's wait and see....

[smile]

I think that no matter who we use to re-negotiate the next "round" of this EBA (ie faaa or a new union), we need to change over the individuals who do the negotiating. The group who are currently representing us within the faaa are clearly attached to the document just voted down. I believe that human nature would make it hard for these individuals to totally pull apart and rebuild something they believed so passionately in.

[wirgin blew]

Smile I am with you 100% on that. The delegates need to take a step down and back away from the next agreement. If the company will listen we need a much larger representation of CC when renegotiations commence. I would say at least 50 from each base and then break that 50 down into, singles, married, defacto, part time, etc. I have already sent my two cents through to my DM as I feel at this stage the FAAA are suffering from "Stockholm Syndrome." (thanks to the genius who gave me that one)
--
In the end I swayed back and forth with my vote as there are certainly things that appeal to me in the new document. In the end the reasons to vote no just outweighed the reasons to vote yes.
--
I can imagine the company will be sending us all a survey in the coming weeks just like the pilots. Please make sure all your feedback makes its way back to the company.
--
Thanks for everyones input on the boards here. The different ways of looking at the document certainly opened up more of the document to me even though I had read it many times. Bring on Round 2.
:D :D :D :D :D

[Brisvegasboy]

Here, here, Smile!

Clearly, as has been previously stated, almost 90% of crew did not like the document presented. There are many points to it that crew felt were not in their best interest.

Democracy in action.....:D

[Mr Seatback 2]

Congratulations people - you're discussing this matter in an open, honest, and more importantly, ADULT manner. It's a stark contrast to some of the other threads that have existed here (not naming names, of course...:E )

Strong communication is required now between you and the FAAA as to where you go with this. Remember - it's YOUR union, so get involved!

However - be mindful that while your reps will have invested much in the EBA, I do believe they're professional enough to recognise it's defeat, and come up with something different in round 2. Don't discount your reps on the basis that they will feel 'angry' or upset their 'baby' didn't get through. They'll pickup where they left off and start all over again - hopefully, this time round, with a clearer idea of how the majority of crew feel.

[Ol Shep]

Avery, keeping an eye out is important but at the right time, pilots need to step back and refer their FA's to the experts. The FAAA holds the key to all the awards and EBAs negotiated in Australian aviation history. Without this knowledge and experience you might as well "whistle dixie". Other long standing unions can try to help crew but it is a specialist field, in the end referred on to the FAAA. I'm sure our colleague's plan was honourable, the instrument approach somewhat misguided and possibly causing an unnecessary go around. Having said this, one opinion did not solely change the course as it was the crew's opinion which really counts in the end. You are right the FAAA is not an individual. They have depth and no doubt broad shoulders. Taking criticism will be a walk in the park compared to negotiations with airline management.

[ak3141]

Originally Posted By Big Hairy Potatoes
...

If you have the right programmers on the job and input the correct parameters, the new PBS will work with our current work rules. However, the AVL days could potentially result in an assigned duty due to the way they are currently structured.

Kronos wouldn't be able to sell their workforce management systems if they only worked with one set of rules.


Originally Posted By Mr Seatback 2
Congratulations people - you're discussing this matter in an open, honest, and more importantly, ADULT manner.

Thanks for that, I'm glad we won your approval. I can finally sleep peacefully :rolleyes:



Originally Posted By Ol Shep
I'm sure our colleague's plan was honourable, the instrument approach somewhat misguided and possibly causing an unnecessary go around. Having said this, one opinion did not solely change the course as it was the crew's opinion which really counts in the end.

Yes, I highly doubt that each of the 992 crew that submitted a no vote actually received the summary written by the pilot in question. In fact, my mind had been made up long before I came across it.

[Brettslave]

I'm sure our colleague's plan was honourable, the instrument approach somewhat misguided and possibly causing an unnecessary go around.


Rather than push on and land like Garuda did a few weeks ago. Hmmm

I think everyone decided a go around was the best option rather than risking it and pressing on. The captain was just giving his opinion. He thought we all deserve better and we all agreed hence the vote.

If the company had a good working history, maybe they would be trusted a little bit more and the EBA might have had half a chance. The last EBA resulted in us being drafted on days off. Everyone agreed to it because they trusted the FAAA and the company. OH how things have changed.

The FAAA is paid by us, it's members to represent our views and lobby for our cause. Not the other way around. Why didn't they lobby the company for guaranteed days off?? Why didn't they lobby for at least CPI which is more than 3% before tax?? And most importantly Why did they HIGHLY RECOMMEND a YES Vote to an EBA which has so many holes in it that it could sink the Queen Mary!!?? How out of touch from the members could you be??... I could go on but those who don't want to see sense will never get it.

Go Around Windshear Ahead.....

[Brettslave]

Mr Seat back 2

I think your seat is too far back, you're looking at the ceiling.. can you please put your seat back up for landing.


(oh how FORTUNATE for everyone!). seems this pilots knickers are well and truly knotted, for someone who's not even able to VOTE on the EBA! As for the tripe about VIPA (blah blah blah), let the pilots do their thing.


Oh and look up the definition of "un-emotive" in the dictionary.

[i luv jet noise]

The Pilots have voted NO.

The Cabin Crew have voted NO.

Ask yourself who benefits if Pilots and Cabin Crew are fighting each other.

[roamingwolf]

i luv jet noise

BINGO...Mate just ask yourselfs who is complaining about the pilots giving advice.who is going to lose out if you both got together.

You gotta look at the big picture.Have some meetings and work out what you want.

Boys and Girls what if you and the pilots got together to form one union?

I reckon it would be good for us to do it to but there is to much history for that to work but not with you guys .

[Mr Seatback 2]

I'm so happy to hear you can finally sleep peacefully. What a relief for both of us.

[djvirginblue]

I am so pleased it was voted down for many reasons. Does anyone know how long it will take for the big wigs to negotiate another EBA? Are we talking weeks, months, over a year?

[sinala1]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21501649-23349,00.html
Virgin crew reject deal
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
April 04, 2007

VIRGIN Blue is facing a backlash from flight attendants and pilots after an enterprise bargaining agreement was overwhelmingly rejected.
Pilot discontent about stalled negotiations over pay and working hours reached boiling point in February and led to warnings that Virgin could be hit with its first ever strike.
Now, nine out of 10 flight attendants have rejected a new enterprise bargaining agreement after two years of negotiations.

The rejection came as Virgin denied a shortage of pilots had led to flights being cut. Spokeswoman Heather Jeffery said the airline's pilot roster was running tighter because some were undertaking upgrade training.

Some pilots were also on annual leave and claims that a shortage was leading to cancellations were "a little imaginative", she said.

However, the Australian Federation of Air Pilots said: "There may be other reasons, but there is an intrinsic shortage of pilots."

The flight attendants voted 992 to 123 vote to reject the agreement on Monday although their union, the Flight Attendants Association of Australia, had endorsed it. The union did not return calls yesterday.

[Ol Shep]

Quoted by Brettslave-

The last EBA resulted in us being drafted on days off. Everyone agreed to it because they trusted the FAAA and the company. OH how things have changed.

Research www.wagenet.gov.au (http://www.wagenet.gov.au/) - being drafted on days off was in your 2000 agreement not the last EBA. You can check it out for yourself. Small and large airlines go through times of crew shortage and high hours or drafting occurs because crew leave at short notice before others can be trained up. The common thread (pun) for the crew appears to be mistrust of the FAAA and the company, is it not? If so, specifically?

[Mr Seatback 2]

Of course - they can only draft you if you answer your phone in the first place.

[sinala1]

Of course - they can only draft you if you answer your phone in the first place
I want to be able to answer a private number without fear of losing a day off! :hmm: And they can draft us prior to the day of operation - they can do it on our computerised sign on/sign off system.

[Brettslave]

That is exactly my point, "can draft people on days off during times of staff shortage or when people leave" We didn't have to agree to it again in the last EBA did we? We trusted management that they would hardly ever happen.

Well this seems to happen all too often and quite frankly we are getting sick of it. I know people who have missed out on very important events, and they aren't just one off incidents. This management is reactive not proactive. And there is no signs of changing thier ways.

Trust is an important factor and management seems to be abuse this sort of trust in a big way. I think they expected to pull the wool over our eyes again this time, but as the great Abe Lincoln said;

You may fool all the people some of the time; you can even fool some of the people all the time; but you can’t fool all of the people all the time.

Mr Seat back 2 I love your pearls of un-emotive wisdom, can you tell me in an "adult" way how you can avoid getting drafted when you get a message on sign on 5 days before your day off informing you that you've been drafted.

O'l Shep, I think it's safe to assume the FAAA is not aligned with it's members when they emphatically endorse a yes vote which ends up getting voted down by 9 out of 10 members. Even 6 out of 10 would get you thinking but 9 out of 10 hmmm. For a union to recommend a YES vote you'd expect at leat 55% of it's members to be thinking the same. Why did the FAAA not spend more time finding out what we it's members wanted rather than shoving what the company wanted down our throats.

Call me naive but this sends alarm bells ringing for me :cool:

[Mr Seatback 2]

Aaah - so they get you on your computerised sign on/off system, then eh? Cheeky buggers.

I admit defeat on that one - I didn't know you guys did active sign on/off (curses to new technology!)

You're absolutely right Sinala - you shouldn't have to screen your calls to prevent being drafted. Jetstar (and formerly, QantasLink) crew avoided drafting using the whole 'screening' process. Fortunately (or unfortunately, however you look at it), Jet* isn't that keen on spending money on IT, so it was a sure fire way of avoiding it altogether in my playground.

My my brettslave - you seem to have latched onto the word 'tripe' with enormous gusto. Don't get yourself all frothed up now - plenty of time for that later!

[lowerlobe]

Has there been any response from either VB or the FAAA since the EBA was voted down?

[KittyBlue]

An email has been sent out from DR, asking for our input about the voted down document. A short survey has been put on line via the intranet valide for 7 days, with simple questions.

These are 3 of 8 questions (the other 5 are stats q's):

5: *What were you most uncomfortable with in the proposed EBA?
6: *What appealed to you the most in the proposed EBA?
7: *What other things, if any, apart from the EBA itself influenced your vote?

So think about your answers. Using 'adult' words and repsonses so we can sort this thing out once and for all.:ok:

[sinala1]

Aaah - so they get you on your computerised sign on/off system, then eh? Cheeky buggers.
Haha yeah - can be a bit upsetting when you have already booked your staff travel flights to CNS, your transfers to Port Douglas, your hotel accomodation for the night - all so you can catch up with your relatives who are in Australia from the UK! Luckily though I managed to wrangle a compromise out of crewing :}

[Mr Seatback 2]

Impulse (QantasLink) in its' day only ever got round to drafting people up to AT MOST 2 days prior - anything else would have been organised :}

[crewbus]

I thought it was a great thing what the pilot did. The information was put out there, whether or not we chose to read it was up to us.

I hope everyone is honest and takes the time to fill out the survey. I thought the question about 'what things other than the actual EBA influenced you in making your decision' was interesting.

Here's to more negotiating and a better deal for the Cabin Crew!

[Brettslave]

Exactly crewbus, the company spent thousands and thousands of dollars in advertising using glossy propoganda making up DVDs and priority postage to try to convince us of thier view.

This Pilot used a few hours of his time, and knowledge of how the company works using thier past experience with their EBA. Nothing he wrote, in my mind was wrong, it actaully highlighted all the fine print a lot of us wouldn't have thought of.

Kind of like an insurance policy, a salesman may make it sound really good, but when you buy it and make a claim you find out it wasn't worth the paper written on.

Stand firm guys and when you fill out the survey remember that inflation for the last year has been 3.4% and if you look food and housing seperately it's well above 5%. So if we accept 3% from the company we are going backwards at a huge rate because after tax 3% becomes 2.2%

Our condtions have been going backwards for quite a few years now, we must turn the tide now otherwise they will just keep getting worse.

[Ol Shep]

O'l Shep, I think it's safe to assume the FAAA is not aligned with it's members when they emphatically endorse a yes vote which ends up getting voted down by 9 out of 10 members. Even 6 out of 10 would get you thinking but 9 out of 10 hmmm. For a union to recommend a YES vote you'd expect at leat 55% of it's members to be thinking the same. Why did the FAAA not spend more time finding out what we it's members wanted rather than shoving what the company wanted down our throats.


My guess is this ... Think of your current EBA as long haul Flt CEBA, your new EBA as destination NEBA and Workchoices as a change in climate or weather front. CEBA's flight plan has overall not been too turbulent. The Captain anticipates an unconfirmed windshear at NEBA and broadcasts. The broadcast however criticises part of the original flight plan which has served his crew up until that point, by referring to it as "utter stupidity":

1.3 1.5 1.6 2.1 2.2.5 2.2.7 2.2.8 2.3 3.3.1iv 3.3.3a 3.6.2 3.9.4e.i 3.9.6 3.9.7 3.13 3.13.1 3.15h 3.16.2 2nd 3.17 3.18.1 3.18.2c 3.19 4.2.4a 4.2.10 5.4c are all part of CEBA. (His crew aren't aware of the contradiction.)

He suggests a go around to the crew which means they have to fly back into the climate through which he had already safely navigated. Any changes to the weather front are unknown. Without knowing all the fors and againsts, the crew democratically decide that CEBA is the safer option.

My guess as an outsider is the FAAA recommended a Yes vote for a number of reasons but one of the reasons is that they are the climate specialists. Outsiders only have limited public access to information over the net, but they know what's happening to FA's contractwise in all airlines. They know more than us outsiders. But as union members you have access to the inside information, the best case outcomes having regard to the climate forecast.

[Brettslave]

Ol Shep, that's a very nice analogy and assuming a just and perfect world I would accept it. Let's consider this analogy then;

Long haul flight from A to Destination B. Origin A was not a pleasant overnight at all, there were cockroaches in your bed, overnight allowance was barely enough to cover your expences as they deliberately miscalcualted the exchange rate. Crew meals were below standard as the caterers were not payed well and had a grudge against the company. By the time you got to origin A last night you were at boiling point. (this symolises the eroding FA conditions over the last 8 years)

You complain to the rest of your crew and to your union. Your union pretends to listen, and they pretend that they will help you improve things for your next sector A to B. You wake up get ready for work with optimism that things will get better when. You sign on and are told that there are no crew meals what so ever now, your rest periods are less and there will be one less crew member that you have to work harder for to compensate for them not being there. To add insult to injury you're told you have to work an extra sector when you get to B as your conditions have changed.

You turn to your union who have pretended to be there for you to help fight for just conditions only to be told that the industrial conditions have changed and you can only accept what's given to you.

You ponder the changes in industrial conditions and you also ponder the size of the union and the amount of disenged work crew at work and the significance of their job to the safety of the airline and the travelling public. You conclude that your union is not on your side, your work conditions are getting chipped away more and more each time you sign on and you're getting rewarded less and less. you wonder what your union could do to at least keep your current conditions in tact and you conclude WAIT FOR IT ........ A LOT MORE THAN THEY ARE DOING NOW.

You also ponder why they are not doing anything right now and why they are working to actually CUT our working conditions and make the company more profitable...... and you conclude that .... yes.. someone must be getting a cut from the company to help this get through....

Not being blinded by all this you vote NO to the EBA proposal. and guess what so do 9 out of 10 of your work collegues because they are just as sick of this.

What do the guys who were getting a cut think... oh ok, we don't get our cut now damm, they weren't as dumb as we thought they were.

(to clarify Cut could mean any form of underhanded reward)

O'l shep I think this is a slightly more realistic analogy for you my friend.

[ccguy]

I challenge anyone to go out there and get a job that pays just as much as we do for the hours that we work (or still would have had to work under the new EBA) in a month. Me thinks that you would be hard up to find anything anywhere close to it. I have worked a lot harder for a lot less in other jobs (including management jobs I have held down) and I think that this is the crusiest job in the history of jobs.

Something tells me that greed and the necessity to squeeze every last drop of money out of a company who's primary role in Australia is to provide low cost fares to the public. We are working in one of the highest paid non-skilled jobs out there and the new EBA would have still kept us up there with the best of them. But its a pity not all of us really understand this or want to understand this.

For those of you who are really that unhappy, perhaps you should look for another job.

Also, another thing to mention, has anyone even entertained the idea that most pilots out there wanted to ensure that the vote was NO in order to make their own case stronger?? So they can say in their negotiations "see, even the F/A's are getting a raw deal" Why do you think that so many pilots were putting their 2 cents worth in when it came to our EBA? How many F/A's made comments about the EBA put forward to the pilots???? Not many I am guessing.

So I ask this question, who is fooling who????

[Brettslave]

ruddman and ccguy,

Just when I thought I'd heard it all with this pathetic post from another whinging f/a, somebody correctly puts it in persecptive:


You call it winging call me stupid but I call it standing up for my own and my work collegues conditions. I call it not going backwards in conditions and getting paid 3% before tax when after tax inflation is 3.4% I call it caring out my future in this job. But if you want to call it winging that's ok by me and everyone else who voted NO :E


It's people like you who erode our conditions because you sell us all short.

Why have our conditions eroded over the last 8 years, were we being paid too much?? Do you believe we were paid to much and are still being paid too much.

Do you consider our job, just a job or a vocation. How you answer this question really says a lot. If I had my family on your flight, i'd hate for them to be subjected to a FA who was just doing a job. They should love thier work and be proud of their ability to handle emergencies etc while still serving customers.

If you feel so passionate about keeping companies profitable go and work in Asia, where your loyal work ethic and lack of regard for your conditions would see you at home. You may even get a chance to practice your evac skills for real. And your pay would be about what your proposing us to accept in the long run.

As for getting a job that pays just as good, I could go and teach and make more money, and be home every night.

It's about time you woke up to the fact that the average wage is now over $50K a year. This is 2007 not 1998.

What agenda do you guys have,whatever it is it's not working sorry
:\ :mad:

[Brettslave]

CCguy who cares that the pilots have agreed with our decision. Ultimately we decided to vote no, they had nothing to do with our EBA. You're trying to find a scapegoat and your barking up the wrong tree.

If the EBA even payed inflation and didn't go backwards we probably would have voted it in.

[ccguy]

Let me start by saying "brettslave" I don't "just do my job" I am very good at my job and my Propel's have proven that. I put in more than 100% into this job because I believe that we are paid quite fairly for what we do. If your family we're to fly on one of my flights, I would treat them just as I treat any other guest, with respect, have some fun, and all while being aware that their safety is of utmost concern.

Companies need to remain profitable to continue to operate. Remember Ansett? A great airline but was run into the ground because of poor management and the fact that it's employees were overpaid. Across all departments including its Flight Attendants.

Its funny you say you would get more for being a teacher. Its nice to see that you compare apples with bananas. Being a teacher is a skilled profession. People need to study at uni for around 4 years before they can even step foot into a classroom and teach. We spend 5 weeks in a training room to learn our jobs. So, I think that your comparison is flawed. Try again.

Oh, and if the average wage is over $50K, are you talking for skilled or non-skilled workers? I have spent the last 8 years as a call centre representative for a variety of companies (including airlines) and the average wage is usually between $35k to $45k. This is including the shift work.

I think there are many people out there in the general public who would laugh at the comment that the average wage is over $50k a year.

According to the Bureau of Statistics, the average wage in Queensland was $35,917 for 2003-2004. Even if you factor in a 3.4% increase in wages every year (pretending that wages increased by the average CPI every year), you would get around $39,705 for 2006-2007. Kind of a far cry from the "average of over $50k" you predicted.

All in all, as F/A's, we are paid over and above what would be required to be paid to us if we were on an award. Let's all be realistic here. Oh, and when you quote figures, remember to be a little more accurate.

Come on guys, look at the bigger picture, are we really going to be that worse off with the new EBA that we won't be able to afford our rent or food or anything else for that matter. Just food for thought, my partner earns about $35k a year and I work less hours than he does and yet I earn more. A little perspective goes a long way.

[Brettslave]

CCguy, you were very particular with the stats you chose I wonder why. NOW I'M REALLY STARTING TO THINK YOU HAVE AN AGENDA.

Why not use the 2006 figures and why not choose Australia wide we are after all in 2007 last I looked and we are spread over 3 bases.

My figures come from here http://australia.emigratenz.org/salaries-australia.html

Notice Queensland is now $50,270 and Victoria is $53,175 so somewhere in between these figure from my calculations would put the average wage as ABOVE $50000 tell me if I'm wrong.

If you really want to be intelligent have a good look at the transport sector you'll find the average wage there is $53735 which is above the average wage.

LAUGHABLE, I'm not sure depends if you're delerious after a red eye. Reality YES.

Yes I do have qualifications, but being a FA is not a job that is classed as an average menial job like cleaning or waitressing or working behind a bar or call center for that matter. It might not be as skilled as some jobs but it does involve a pretty tough selection process last time I looked. So you can't do this job if you were an average dim wit off the street.

Not long ago Cabin crew were making more than teachers, why have things changed.

Oh and the old Ansett argument. Do some homework you'll find Ansett did not collapse because it was paying too much in wages. Far from it. Don't believe all the propoganda you hear from this company.

As I said if you think you don't deserve your conditions go and work with an asian carrier with a second rate airline, or better still go and work with your boyfriend.

Oh and I couldn't resisit: Oh, and when you quote figures, remember to be a little more accurate. :E :ok:

[Brettslave]

Come on guys is the company not making record profits, if it was struggling maybe we would think of cutting our conditions, but do your homework, here I've done some for you.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/02/20/bloomberg/sxblue.php

We need to at least keep our current conditions. I believe under these conditions we should be improving our conditions.

(CCguy you'll notice the article is dated Feb 2007, handy that eh:E )

[TightSlot]

A reminder - play the ball, not the player - scoring points off each other may be fascinating for those involved, but is pretty tedious for everybody else who has to read it.

EBA's tend to be emotive - posts that allow emotion to dominate at the expense of courtesy and clarity will be deleted.

[djvirginblue]

I second everything you have said Brettslave :D :D - but there is no use analysing the EBA anymore as it was a firm and rightfully so NO. Lets just do our job and do our job well and wait with a bit of patience to see what they come back with. It's out of our hands for now.

By the way, we earn every cent of the money we earn. I too went to university for five long years and have qualifications and of course used them. However I have never experienced such a toll on my body like this job gives (fatigue, constantly knocked out with colds and flus - mind you I'm a very fit guy), being away from my family half the month, and also basically giving up your entire life 24 hours, 7 days a week (which is fine as I love the job). Yet, no one in their right mind should say we have a cruisy job and get paid more then we should. No it's not astro physics but we do know how to evacuate 180 passengers in under 90 seconds if we needed to hahahahaha:}

Come on guys, let's stick together and put up a fight for what we rightfully deserve - and that's a better EBA than the one they have offered. 89.7% of us think so.

[Brisvegasboy]

I too agree with you wholeheartedly, Brettslave!

However, amongst all this passionate debate, please everyone don't forget to reply to the survey that has been sent to us.

NOW is our chance to unemotively state what we did and didn't like about the voted down document - and hopefully have management look at this and rectify the disliked parts of the EBA.

Happy Easter!

Cheers,

Bvb:D

[Brisvegasboy]

AND I would like to second those comments made by 737NG_girl.

It was the conditions that I was most unhappy with the propsed EBA - the wages, well I was generally satisfied with what was on offer.

Why should we accept conditions which are not as good as what we currently have (or worse in some cases)? I for one don't want to be flogged out there everyday for a slight increase in renumeration. :}

[737NG_Girl]

Why was my rather long post deleted?? It was not "playing the player" - it was merely proving Ruddmans lack of credibility as a participant in this discussion. If it was because of one sentence in reference to doors and butts, well I would request my post is reinstated minus that particular line please.

[TightSlot]

No - edit your own posts before posting (and that goes for all of you) - mods have better things to do - edit them to avoid personal attacks, petty vendettas, abuse and pointless profanity: Edit them for relevancy and readability while you're at it.

With 4 posts deleted and 1 user banned, this thread is headed down the tubes rapidly - suggest that you all clean up your acts, or the thread will be closed.

[Brettslave]

Understood tightslot:)

[Ol Shep]

Brettslave, friend,

I have taken in your analogy and would like to support your argument but at this stage I only understand one of your reasonings:

Substandard Accommodation-there’s an Accommodation Standard listed in your EBA, the cockroach problem could be fought if you all complain to your union (you’ll probably need more than 1 person to complain but there’s possibly 991 others who would help)

Overnight Allowance-$40 per overnight in 2000 and now governed by ATO rulings to around $90 (where is the miscalculation? or why does it not cover expenses?)

Level 2 wages-increased from $35987(2000) to $46438(8 years on) and on top of this you add bonuses and overtime (based on the ABS model you put forward), $740 yearly productivity payment, approx $1000 rest break payments, approx $5000 for additional hours above your salary, approx $10000 in overnight allowances tax free less costs(say half)=$58178. Is this close to the income total for level 2? You’d need to get the March 2008 ABS figures to compare or recalculate and compare the ABS model against your 2005/06 income.

Crew meals-can’t find any reference to them in your first agreement or the second or third. Is there another agreement about these somewhere?

1 less crew member-CASA's exemption and they only care about the evacuation ratio. Did CASA include your union’s input? Would you all be prepared to support your union and lobby CASA? Pilots could help you lobby because if FA’s are exhausted then pilots are not ably assisted during an evacuation. Have other pilots offered to help you build your case? The union from their website is working to improve your service workload.

Extra sector-in 2000 your rostering limit was 9 hours and 30 minutes and this increased by 15 minutes in 2003 for domestic single duties (on my enquiry for you this limit didn’t apply to long haul duty limits). The new EBA increases the rostering limit to 12 hours (which could cover some long haul duty limits) and in some circumstances reduces it below 9 hours 45 minutes.

When you wake up under the new EBA, you’ll have had an extra 1 or 2 hours sleep, so I can’t see the reduction.

Perhaps list from 1 to 10 what has reduced over the last 8 years. Maybe start with $ amounts and then list all the conditions which have been chipped away. If ATO rulings aren’t high enough, then you'll more than likely need to state exactly why FA’s at Virgin Blue need a higher amount than ATO rulings than other Australian workers.

[lowerlobe]

Ol Shep...give it a rest ......the EBA was voted down by nearly 90%.

This means that there must have been something fundamentally wrong with the proposal or the result would be have been different.

The result means that the proposed EBA was rejected and now a new one has to be considered.

[Ol Shep]

Brettslave was talking about how wages and conditions have worsened. If you want a better deal than the one that was rejected, then you'll need to lay out on the table accurate reasonings. The ABS model is good, build from there.

Maybe Tightslot could start a new thread, EBA II (reconstruct)?

[lowerlobe]

Ol Shep,

Obviously the majority of crew felt the same as brettslave because they voted NO .

[Ol Shep]

Yes, lowerlobe, no one is arguing against you or Brettslave. Time to construct a new EBA.

[sinala1]

new EBA increases the rostering limit to 12 hours (which could cover some long haul duty limits)
Incorrect. If you had read the EBA you would know that it specifically relates to B737 and EMB operations only.

[Brettslave]

O'l shep, I think you may have misunderstood my analogy. It was not litteral, I was only trying to illustrate a decline in FA conditions over the last 10 years. You cannot include overnight allowances in your wage, as you are meant to spend this on your overnights. Overnight allowances are compensation for having to live out of a suitcase. That is why it is not taxed. So therefore we are getting less than the average wage.

Anyway I think everyone has realised we won't get anywhere arguing about petty items. We collectively were not happy with this EBA, let's collectively fight for what we believe we deserve. I hope the FAAA will help us achieve the best we possibly can. A 98% no vote give them some negotiating power at least. It's time for them to show us what they can do.

Inflation is 3.4% and forecast to rise by many analysts, if we don't get at least 4% pay rise before tax we are going backwards and the company is getting cheaper labour from us each year.

Stand firm Team.

[Ol Shep]

ABS refer to cash earnings so need to add all other income on top of wages to get an accurate comparison.

737 & EMB can and will no doubt fly international/long haul routes as stated in press releases and as per the scope of your current EBA.

Allowances and conditions aren't petty items, they collectively add up to your total EBA package, each one has to be bargained separately with backing for your argument.

Assistance offered has been from senior labour economists with expertise in employment contracts. Anyway, you are all obviously educated and it's clear you don't want any further info. All the best.

[sinala1]

737 & EMB can and will no doubt fly international/long haul routes as stated in press releases

International, yes - long haul, no. Long haul to me and (most of us who regularly do continental crossings) is anything over probably 7 hours or so - unless the B737-900ER came along to DJ (which, who knows, it may well) I cant see the B737 operating long haul routes - particularly with the B777-300ER's on the way.

And for the record, no one here has refuted the offer of help - all they have done is provided rebuttals in a debate - often against points which were badly/incorrectly made in the first place.

[vista]

Ol Shep,
you wrote :


Avery, keeping an eye out is important but at the right time, pilots need to step back and refer their FA's to the experts.


Didn't you say you are a pilot? Why is it wrong for someone with a different opinion to yours to voice it?
Give it up!

[Ol Shep]

Vista, no problem to voicing opinions. Sharing or passing on qualified advice can be useful, particularly during new, complex and largely untested new laws. We're all in this together. As the FA's on this thread posed questions to me, I got in contact with trusted advisors who helped me research for the FA's (who are friends and colleagues) and then posted info. Brettslave has led the way, move on, so it's over to the FA's now to stand firm on what they want, time to step back and leave it to them. If they want qualification on the laws or contracts, over to them.

[EBA_Babylon]

First of all Happy Easter All!
Second- I'm lost with "CEBA and NEBA??"

I have just completed, in quite a rush, the EBA survey. I noted several things i disliked but wish I had more time to address.
I think it was rather silly to have the survey only open for seven days and namely over the Easter break- I only found out about the survey this evening and it closes tonight!

Hopefully my feedback will count for something though. what did everyone else write as feedback? I wrote how I felt then went back and deleted all the emotion to keep it professional, and consturctive.

Had an interesting conversation with Pac-blue cc whilst on my getaway, does anyone know more about thier work rules/conditions? Not that they have a choice in work rules as they are contract I believe. And a small enough base (80-150? NZ) to email roster requests like the good ol' days.

And has anything else been going on re EBA in my absence? ..besides the juicey posts I've been reading about!! :) I'm not back at work yet....

EBA Babylon xo

[lowerlobe]

EBA_Babylon...I doubt that the timing and length of that survey was an accident....

[Brettslave]

O' shep said:

ABS refer to cash earnings so need to add all other income on top of wages to get an accurate comparison.

737 & EMB can and will no doubt fly international/long haul routes as stated in press releases and as per the scope of your current EBA.

Allowances and conditions aren't petty items, they collectively add up to your total EBA package, each one has to be bargained separately with backing for your argument.

Assistance offered has been from senior labour economists with expertise in employment contracts. Anyway, you are all obviously educated and it's clear you don't want any further info. All the best.


As I now firmly believe and as Tight Slot said, we shouldn't get into arguments about petty items. When someone says something do your own reasearch and you'll find out what is right. Don't believe arguments on face value and that goes for what everyone says for and against the EBA. I think I proved that with CCguys line of arguing. I could go on proving that with evidence but what's the use.

Stand firm and I hope no one held back on the surveys :E :ok:

[crewbus]

Not sure if everyone is aware, but I think you can fill out the EBA survey on the FAAA website without being a member.

PM me if you would like me to email you the link.

[PER210]

does anyone know why virgin has cancelled flights from Perth-Broome in May? cheers

[avery]

Not enough flight crew because of resignations and upgrades. Quite a few have gone or are going to Emirates and Cathay, Sim booked out for quite a while, 12 or so crew going over to train on Embraer. Think Alliance have taken over the Perth-Broome sectors til July.

[wirgin blew]

Rumour has it that a certain head of department first name Bruce has been given the chop.
One could only assume that if this is true it has something to do with the fact that nearly 90% of the TC and CC arent happy with the EBA's put to them.
Can anyone confirm or deny this rumour???

[PER210]

Avery.. Skywest has taken my brothers and his girl friends flight to Broome and back. Has there been any other routes dropped?

[avery]

Mel-Drw suspended at this stage for the month of May as well as other regular ad-hoc cancellations.

[wirgin blew]

Thought this thread needed a bump back to the front page.

Other than what the FAAA has been emailing me does anyone have any updates. Im hearing that either this month or next we should be able to have another look at the document version 2.

[Grove]

Im hoping to be joining Virgin soon and would be interested to know what changes to the current E.B.A. are you and the company hoping to achieve. Good and bad!!

Thanks.

[sinala1]

Word online is that the "new" proposed eba is more or less the same as the proposal that was voted down, just with a few words changed :ugh:

That said though, I will believe it when I see it

[Grove]

What are the main issues of concern?? What do the company want?? What do the crew want?? Have just had my reference cheked, really keen to join Virgin but would like to know what changes if any are in the pipeline..`

[ak3141]

What are the main issues of concern?? What do the company want?? What do the crew want?? Have just had my reference cheked, really keen to join Virgin but would like to know what changes if any are in the pipeline..Management has said that it is operationally necessary for cabin crew to be rostered 12 hour duties. The reason behind this and why the present 9hr 45m day is insufficient (12 hrs with a 5th paxing sector) is a little obscure. Informing crew of the reason behind the necessity would assist in working through the implementation of appropriate measures that ensure 12 hour days aren't rostered repeatedly and that increased rest after such duties is guaranteed.

Under the EBA that was voted down, crew could have been rostered 5 consecutive 12hr duties with only 12 hrs rest in between before being given a day off. This is a worst case scenario but this is what crew need to be aware of in order to protect themselves from excessively long duties, tiredness and fatigue.

I would like to see more transparency in the EBA negotiation process. It seems that even as a union member, my working conditions rest on the shoulders of a small group of people who clearly didn't listen to what crew wanted the first time around :\

[Grove]

Thanks for the reply.. 5X12 hour days doesnt sound terribly appealing..Would that mean though you get more days off as you would complete your monthly total in a shorter time??

[smile]

Grove- its true what you sway about getting your hours done in a shorter time........but

The role of cabin crew is a VERY physically demanding role. At the moment we are exhausted after doing 4 x 9.5hour days. I know that I get very stroppy, my attention span decreases, my tolerance level decreases and all my thoughts are consumed with getting out of this red metal tube. At the end of the day I don't think that I would be any good in an emergency- you wouldn't want your familiy flying with me at the end of the day- trust me.

Just remember at Virgin Blue we don't get to pop our feet up and have a coffee for 10 minutes between flights, we get em off, clean up after em, and then get the next lot on :E. And to add to that we also are operating with a reduced crew complement on the 737-800's. Breaks are very few and far between.

So whilst it mey be more efficient to roster us like that, the reason we are there --SAFETY-- is flushed down the loo.

[Grove]

Smile, I agree.. 9.45 duty on the ground is not like 9.45 in the air. Lets hope it doesnt happen..
You mentioned reduced crew on B737.800, what is the story with that??
With the company expecting more out of the crew in regard duty hours and reduced crew [ where you will obviously have to work harder ] What is in it for the crew??
Also would like your or any Virgin crew advise!!!
If offered Virgin do I leave M.A.M to join Virgin..??
Is Virgin a good place to work..??
What is crew moral like..??

I know Im full of questions but my head is spinning around, really confused, dont know what to do if offered the position>>Thanks..

[737NG_Girl]

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2004073370613.gif

[EBA_Babylon]

Grove- VB is a great place to work. And even though the last proposed EBA was crap,the Eba issue will hopefully sort itself out soon. Us crew, (namely myself!) like to vent about issues concerning us but it doesn't mean we don't love what we do (hopefully most of us) So if you love flying and are young at heart then i say take the job if offered and make the switch to VB!

[Grove]

Thanks for your advise...I have resigned from M.A.M and starting in August... Really happy about the move..

[lemmegetback2u]

Welcome Grove! the uniform is not as nice but at least now you won't be working with the dinosaurs of the sky! you know the ones - requiring a zimmer frame to do the service or needing a hip replacement every time they arm their doors. We have a couple at Virgin but they are hilarious and good looking like me. Yes I know with a bit of botox and mid sky lighting there are some stunners at QF but. At least now your permanent and you can move pretty quickly if you do the right thing.

Understand where Smile is coming from though, yes we clean every turn around and sometimes you just want to throw a match to the whole thing instead of crawling around where Sharon has just left the contents of her and babies lunch. No little person vacuming around you, you need to pull out the stupid thing which doesnt actually collect anything off the floor it just dumps more. I disagree about the break thing though. I am always on a break! after doing the service which can take all of ten minutes, no more full hot meal and bar on A330 on an hour flight for 287 PAX plus call bells. There are breaks.

So sick of the EBA just leave it as is I have a mortgage I need the cash. Plus there has been so many new groups recently it wouldn't suprise me if these silly kids voted it in as has happened in the past.

Anyone applied for the E-Jet Ambssador positions? crew have any opinions or ideas on how this will work? destinations? I really would like to get some six sector Wagga - Sydney days.

I have applied though as was recently in an unplugged session and Mr Rundall however you spell it mentioned that it could be a good move if you were and E-Jet Ambassador you could also end up being one for the 777. LA here I come. Thoughts?

[vb_girl]

The sad reality is that the Virgin Blue will not listen to union demands unless the vast majority of crew are members. At present membership is around 60% and the stronger our union membership is, the more likely we are to get what we want.

We all know about the conditions some of the older Qantas crew enjoy due to their historically strong union membership and unless we band together and show our support by joining the union before this next EBA is drawn up, then we are definitely not going to get what we want.

There is a reason why trainers aren't allowed to mention union membership to new inductees and why the company doesn't allow the union to enter our crew rooms to discuss membership with us.

My union membership is in and I will remain a member until the next EBA is negotiated. If you want a better bargaining position, better conditions and the company to listen to the union because it represents over 90% of Virgin Blue employees, then join the union :ok:

I've seen the membership forms on top of the drop file cabinets, grab one or visit the website to join.

[lowerlobe]

vb_girl...You are right in saying that to protect yourself you have to be part of a collective group in order to have a greater bargaining power.

Having said that after you have decided to join a union you have to be part of a union that is prepared to listen to you.

Has the S/H FAAA given you any indication that they are listening to what you did not like about your rejected EBA?

[vb_girl]

Has the S/H FAAA given you any indication that they are listening to what you did not like about your rejected EBA?

Lowerlobe, I can only hope they are listening. If union membership numbers amongst VB cabin crew were stronger during the negotiation process for this next EBA, the company may be more inclined to listen and possibly meet the demands made by the union.

If I remember correctly (please correct me if I am wrong), membership was about 60% during the last negotiation process and the document we were given was voted down by 89% of crew. With such low union membership numbers, the company is in a great position as industrial action by only 60% of crew is a much better prospect than industrial action by 90-95% of crew.

If the 89% that voted no actually joined the union for round 2, we might stand a better chance at improving our conditions. If we get a shabby EBA proposal the second time round with above 90% union membership, we can most certainly conclude that the union isn't listening or looking after it's members.

[737NG_Girl]

If we get a shabby EBA proposal the second time round with above 90% union membership, we can most certainly conclude that the union isn't listening or looking after it's members.

My major concern was the fact that the union strongly recommended an EBA that was, at best, a complete insult - at worst, well I will let you use your imagination to come up with any number of appropriate adjectives.

Unfortunately the S/H FAAA lacks a lot of credibility & integrity amongst crew. Ask anyone who has been with VB for longer than a year or two. If they are not a member - ask them why - funnily enough you will hear the same Name and the same reasons mentioned quite frequently. Unfortunately that in itself is a double-edged sword, as the individual in question is now employed by VB working directly against the unions - so having this individual working against the FAAA, combined with reduced membership numbers because of this individual's defection from the FAAA to VB, just strengthens VB's position in the negotiations. The FAAA has a lot of integrity to re-build, and its going to take a long time to do so.

Many years ago in a previous life I heard a saying to the effect of "the best EBA's are the ones where both parties walk away feeling they got screwed". Lets hope we at least get a palatable offering this time around - and for god's sake, ditch those new work rules! As long as they are there, this EBA has much less chance of getting through. Pineapple, anyone?

[mouse78]

As EEA crew, and going through the same EBA junk, i was horrified to read that the FAAA "told" you guys to vote for it! They did the same to us! Stand your ground guys! Good luck!:D

Mouse

[roamingwolf]

who does the faaa represent?

:E