Industry recommendations on the best way to qualify yourself

[glenb]

I am the CFI of a flying school and have just had a meeting with a student and his father asking for advice on where to go with their training. I have my own opinion, but in order to give him the best advice possible i have directed them to this thread to seek some industry input.I am trying to give him the best value while being mindful of making the training as economical as possible.

His first question was with regards to the value of the NVFR

Second should he put his money into an initial twin rating or would he be better served doing a 206 endorsement and gaining 10 hours PIC as part of his CPL

Will going North without an Instrument Rating be a major disadvantage in gaining a first job.

His plan is basically to complete his CPL in the short term and then head off North.

Thanks in anticipation of your advice.

[Flintstone]

For what it's worth I did my CPL, commenced a MEI/R, put the latter on hold half way through and switched to an Instructor Rating which I considered gave me more chance of immediate work.

As it turned out my guess was right and I finished my MEI/R at mates rates at the Coolangatta school that employed me (same one I trained at). After 700 hours instructing I then went north and flew 1000 hours on 210's before getting a twin job so never used the MEI/R in anger for nearly three years/1600 hours after getting it.

I'd say that would still be the way to go. If he's no interest in instructing stick with the SE types until he has enough hours to make a twin job a realistic proposition. As for the NVFR, it couldn't be used for pax flying but you never know when it'll come in handy.

Of course I could be corrected by someone more up to date.

[compressor stall]

Hey mate, how's it going?
I would recommend going north with the NVFR. My first job after my training was flying pax out through Arnhem Land to Borroloola and returning by myself after dark back to town. Without at least the NVFR this is not possible.

5 hours in a 206 and/or 5 hours in a 210 is not essential (many have got jobs without it!) but might in the eyes of the prospective employer see you up to speed (and earning money) faster. To complete this as part of the CPL would seem sensible, and not cost much more (as you have the base rate of instructor and 172 anyway to pay for).

As for the Multi and/or Instrument Rating, once up north, it can be hard to get time off to complete it (and there are very few (if any) places to do it up north). Most companies have a few singles and one or two twins. You start on the singles and move to the twins when the senior pilot(s) move on. That can be all of a sudden and it is good to be in a position where you are able to get your C402 endorsement in a day and complete your ICUS with the resigning pilot in his last few weeks of employment. The company won't wait the month for you to head south and complete your rating; you'll return to find that young upstart who started after you with 25 C402 hours....
Also, thinking years ahead, as pointless as it seems, there are many companies that demand XX IF renewals. Even if you don't use it between renewals, it is good to start clocking them up early.
my $.02.

[Howard Hughes]

Following on from Stallie's post, may I add ATPL's, ATPL's, ATPL's!! The sooner they are done, the better off you are, especially in the current climate...:ok:

[MBA747]

Glen, I didn’t know you were so young, but it’s a good question, because very little thought is put into this. It appears several northern operators would like the young pilots to have “heavy 200 time”, so this is what I would recommend.
If one still needs 10 hours night flying for the CPL use it wisely and obtain a NVFR, pointless going around the circuit for 10 hours, NVFR is a requirement for an Instructors Rating just in case the student follows that path.
Now, if the student still wants a C206 endorsement he could do the endorsement and fly the 206 at night gaining the 10 hours required for the job and qualifying for the NVFR. Now I assume with the endorsement and the night flying the 10 hours will be exceeded but not by much.
Does one still need 10 hours general flying? They did in the past. The 10 hours could be used to gain an initial twin endorsement and the simulator you have can be used to teach the initial handling so that when he/she comes to the air exercise he/she will be quite familiar with what is required and will reach a higher standard quicker thereby saving the student money and you gaining a good reputation. Also having the twin endorsement will do away with the necessity of doing the endorsement for their MECIR. (Seminole Endorsement preferably as the Duchess is out of production) Saving several hours and more money. I did my twin endorsement as part of the route flying required for the Class One Instrument Rating which was more realistic as it required a drift down when engine was failed at altitude and every take-off and landing was normally associated with an engine failure. However I believe some schools treat this as a separate part of the training which means an extra seven hours flown, which is good for the school but not so good for the students pocket.
Now I am sure some little CFI will say hey you can’t do that, but then who is he looking after, the student’s interests or the schools? I am sure you have heard the phrase “we have higher standards” so one needs to fly more i.e. spend more money. All the best with your new school.

[BrazDriver]

Only go down the instructing road if you will love to teach!
As for the instrument rating, I agree with the previous post that having a few renewals under your belt is a good thing, and that companies wanting to promote junior pilots will happen like lightning when the senior pilot moves on.
I had 800hrs before I did my IFR, I feel I had a better understanding and better aircraft management skills than i would have being a fresh CPL and I got more out of the course. My advice is settle into a company for a few months and when you get a short break during the off season, head off and get the twin endorsements to the aircraft that your company operates.

As for the NVFR, night hours are hard to find. Get the rating as a ppl holder and spend some of your command time for your CPL at night. Its a good head start. Many companies require a NVFR due to many empty sectors at night. It has saved my bacon from staying overnight in some dreadful places before!

All the best!

[glenb]

cheers fellas, appreciate the input. Keep it coming.

[Chimbu chuckles]

glenb et al.

My feelings given the current employment climate.

Fly (at least) some (if not all) of the CPL navexs in a C210. There is just no logical reason why the csu/retract u/c aspects of these group endorsements could not be covered in a more realistic fashion during enroute flying...for instance approaching desto you inform the student that he will be doing an alternate gear extension as he hits the circuit making him think about where/how he will accomplish said extension. Doing 3-5 hrs in the training area/circuit to get 'endorsed' on a complex single is a waste of money. Getting 'checked out' in a C206 afterwards is either a/. a waste of money if he is paying the dual rate or b/. a doddle for some employer who will of course do it during enroute revenue flights. A 210 is really just a retractable undercarriage 206 when all is said and done.

The marginal cost associated with doing the CPL navs in a 210 as opposed to whatever else was choice 1 is not going to be huge, given he won't be stuffing around being 'endorsed' first, and the benefits would be significant.

Similarly instead of doing a NVFR rating and later on springing for a MEIR just do the MEIR at night. The dual rate on a BE76 aint that heavy a burden if you look at it from the point of view of increased value of experience over doing half the training in some 'relatively' cheap single and the rest in the Duchess. Plus there is the money not wasted doing the NVFR seperately. By completing all the required flying for the IR at night you will have made the training a lot more realistic and increased the difficulty factor just enough so you're producing a safer pilot at the end of the exercise. If you pick some nice dark moonless nights and structure the training so that you're spending time flying in and out of nice dark places...and insisting a significant proportion is HANDFLOWN...you will produce a newly minted instrument rated pilot with some real skills (that may save his life even doing VFR 210 flying in the northern wet) and with a sense of how difficult it can be. Nice dark moonless nights remove the need to dick around with hoods etc.

Now we have a young pilot heading north that will be looked upon very favorably by employers...enough time in complex singles so that insurance is a non issue and with the basic skills to be a conveniantly placed employee when his seniors head off up the ladder 6-9 mths later.

Guys don't even THINK about buying yourself a Baron or similar type rating on holidays to 'sweaten' your prospects. You have the skills and if the boss wants you in his Baron after 6-9 mths he can do it. It costs an employer very little to do your Baron or C402 type rating, and it is tax deductable. A couple of hours MAX at direct operating costs and then you're off on revenue flights ICUS.

It costs you 5 hrs + at the dual rate.

Probably doing it the above way would cost a little more overall...but I would be surprised if it was a significant extra amount of money if various money wasting exercises were deleted by combining them with required enroute flying.

The way CPLs have been done in the last 15 yrs or so where minimal cost aircraft types have been used in concert with separating every rating and endorsement has not produced good product and I would argue has not produced significant savings for the customer (CPL aspirant).

[Blown Seal]

Gday Buckers,
Don't know how you have your CPL syllabus set up, but maybe he could do the NVFR as part of his CPL training.
I could be wrong but thought failing engines at night was no longer legal after the Tamworth crash, so being able to do too much of a MECIR at night is not practical from a SE point of view.
If you are able to get a C210 on line this would be a great machine for the last component of the CPL training.
Get the MECIR before going north/west and do it in a Baron (or similar), much more likely to actually fly one in a twin job than a seminole, duchess etc. Its the old "being in the right place at the right time" thing, you won't want to have to leave a job (or use your holidays if you get any) to go and get one and then potentially miss an opprotunity, much easier to just do a renewal (if required) or go straight from a VFR job to an IFR one.
I would also agree to get the ATPL's knocked over before leaving ML, actually I would (if he is a fulltime student) start knocking them off whilst still doing his CPL flying and then do the IREX followed by the MECIR so he has some current flying before heading off.
Hope this helps,
Cheers
Fink

[Ricky Bobby]

There are not too many schools around with 200 series Cessna aircraft online so some research will be required there. Doing your CPL nav training in one will save you big bikkies later on.

With my training organisation S/E NVFR navs were done with PPL navs so it was a case of doing the PPL test then the NVFR on the next flight. I have heard of someone with another organisation doing a PPL flight test in the afternoon out to an airfield, then commencing a NVFR test on the way home.

Definitely do ATPL's as soon as possible.

[MBA747]

Chumbu,

Glen does not have a C210 only a 206, there isn’t a C210 at YMMB, or YMEN that can be cross hired so that’s going to be difficult. I would only do the 10 hours required on the 206 any more is a waste of money. There is a large difference between costs of say an Arrow and a 210 or a 206. The cost of renting a Duchess or Seminole are similar and the Seminoles are still coming of the production line. The only cheap Duchess I know of is at Bankstown a long way to go.

The NVFR is a must, because although the MECIR covers the privileges of the NVFR, once the MECIR lapses for any reason, one cannot operate NVFR because ones license is not endorsed NVFR. In addition there would be little chance of one operating IFR up north with such little experience, therefore the possibility of the MECIR lapsing is high, now unless one is prepared to continually keep it current then the NVFR is superfluous.

As mentioned on an earlier post the student should try and fly some of his solo navs at night to accumulate night hours, there seems to be a requirement by some operators requiring X amount of night hours even for the most basic position.

That’s it from me.

[Lando Calrissian]

Call me crazy but I heard of one way of doing things that made me wish I had done the same thing, I wonder what other people think of this idea? It certainly sounded good.

At the completion of PPL, do a private IFR rating. With your PIFR then blast off on a trip around Australia, racking up command hrs, NAV hrs, IFR hours etc.

On return after doing bulk time and hopefully visiting a few possible future employers on the way you have enough NAV and IFR NAV hours to do the CPL flight test and then the MECIR after.

I'm crazy aren't I?

[MBA747]

By the way,
CASA requires 7 hours for the initial twin endorsement not 5.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Certainly there are aspects of training that should not be conducted at night...engine failures being the most obvious.

That being said there is simply no reason I can see why a lot of training cannot be combined at potential huge savings if an overall view is taken rather than minimum cost/hr aircraft being seen as the best way forward.

It has been 25 years since I did my CPL so I am not up to speed on what constitutes the syllabus now but in my day it was something along the lines of;

PPL holder with x hrs in command presents himself with CPL subjects passed for the CPL syllabus.

The CPL syllabus was 50 hrs from memory that merely repeated the PPL syllabus but required a higher level of skill displayed. The Nav part was done in a C172rg as in those days retractable and constant speed was a requirement for a CPL flight test.

Initial twin and initial csu/retract was done separately, as was MEIR, NVFR (Class 4 I/R in those days).

Why on earth not use those 50 hrs (+ a bunch more in a decent ME simulator) productively to include all the above with night/day hours structured in such a way that the syllabus is covered with respect to stuff that cannot be covered at night and end up with say 20 hrs in a C210, 20-25 hrs ME in a Duchess or similar and 5-10 in a Baron PLUS a MEIR?

The savings would be HUGE.

As an example just not wasting 5 hrs in a C210 doing a formal 'endorsement' would equate to 15hrs flying the machine at the marginal rate over and above whatever was used in a more 'traditional' syllabus.

The initial ME endorsement would be covered by between .5 and 1hr dual circuits and the rest during the the dual enroute IFR training...the Baron could ALL be covered in the enroute phase rather than spending 3-5 hrs in the circuit at a cost of $3000. That money could buy a lot of Baron time at the marginal rate over and above the Duchess.

When you start combining things logically you find that there is huge waste in the traditional syllabus.

[Chimbu chuckles]

MBA747.
No problems...do the flying in the 206, the Retract is covered in the MEIR...210 covered.

Structuring the training so the student ended up with a NVFR AND MEIR is easy...you pick up one (if not both) for free essentially...instead of wasting most of the CPL syllabus repeating EFATO/PFL and steep turns.

Even if the restructured CPL syllabus was 5-10 hrs more flying to brush up on handling basics you still don't have to cough for the NVFR/MEIR/Initial Twin/CSU/Retractable endorsements separately.

How hard would it be to do the odd steep turn, PFL etc enroute in the heavier handling 206 (MUCH better training value) while on a day IFR/VFR CPL navex?

Do an EFATO in the Seminole on first takeoff on an IFR training flight that will end after dark rather than as stand alone exercises during the initial twin endorsement.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Hi,
There are two main paths to follow:

1) Instructing, able to be done from the safety of mum and dads spare room, in my opinion offers many less adventures than the second option.

2) Go Bush ( my choice ), Plan ahead, Bus licence, Senior First Aid, Dangerous Goods Acceptance and the ability to speak to large groups are all advantages. Remember you'll probably be working in the tourism industry for your first job or two.

Instrument Rating - Not of immediate benefit, but does give you skills that may help you ( read - may save your life ),furthermore jobs you will be applying for a couple of years after obtaining the CPL will require the rating with a couple of renewals.

ATPL's - if you can afford, get them done ASAP. It is possible to study these whilst in the bush, but sometimes hard to book a test for ( tese exams are much easier when you have an Instrument Rating ). Go to Johnson Aviation at Port Macquarie for this.

Going bush offers a great learning experience, bigger aeroplanes, all hands on, generally better money than Instructing.

C206 or similar, cant hurt, but not overly relevant.

Your path to an adventure and well paying job will be significantly easier.
Other points of interest,
Never burn a bridge in aviation,
Never work for free,
Be humble, and
Always honor work commitments/contracts.

Its not an easy path, unless daddy is a check captain with QF, hard work and dedication will pay off.

Good Luck.

[Tee Emm]

CASA requires 7 hours for the initial twin endorsement not 5

"Requires" as in mandates by regulation - or merely "recommends" as published in CAAP? No way should a competent pilot when instructed by a experienced competent instructor need seven hours of dual flogging the training area and circuit in a Seminole/Duchess. After all how many simulated engine failures on take off is needed to be certified as competent? 5, 10, 15 or twenty? Of course not. Even five dual hours are not necessary because a lot depends on the aerodrome you are training from. Lengthy transit times to the local training area can clock up the hours but that does not necessarily add up to skill and competency at flying a twin.

Re the instrument rating. Get it on a twin before venturing up north. Flying VFR on a black night over the desert is IMC whether the rules say it or not. And under those conditions you will never see the cloud before you inadvertently fly through it and it could be a lot thicker than you think. The CIR is a life saver - have absolutely no doubt about that.