Police test drone spy helicopters

[on21]

Just seen this on BBC website. I thought it was April 1st, The pilots must be from Knotty Ash!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6477831.stm
Pilotless helicopters will be tested by police on Merseyside in the fight against anti-social behaviour.
The drone aircraft will keep watch over football matches and trouble hotspots.
Fitted with CCTV cameras and weighing 1kg - about the same as a bag of sugar - they are controlled by officers on the ground.
The force is considering using them to monitor large crowds and to gather evidence from major incidents or areas blighted by anti-social behaviour.
Assistant Chief Constable Simon Byrne said it was something they are interested in using.
"We already have the force helicopter but the drone is smaller. We will have the resources to put several out at any one time.
"We could have one over a firearms incident in one part of the county, for example, and another over crowds at a football match to spot any trouble."

[ShyTorque]

Hope they are twin engined :E

[SilsoeSid]

I may have missed something here, but how can a remote controlled helicopter with a camera beaming signals to a receiver, be CCTV?

From the CCTV Advisory Service
http://www.cctv-information.co.uk/

Introduction to Closed Circuit Television
As the name implies, it is a system in which the circuit is closed and all the elements are directly connected. This is unlike broadcast television where any receiver that is correctly tuned can pick up the signal from the airwaves.

How much fun the 'people' will have should they think about popping into their local hobby shop and buying a remote control transmitter complete with a variety of frequency chips!!

[Heli-kiwi]

I don't think that drone weighs 1 Kg, More like 10......
All good until one falls through a house or somebodies head.The lawyers will have a feild day

[jayteeto]

I fly the liverpool 'real' helicopter. Sometimes, when dealing with management, you have to let them make mistakes to realise their error. Someone has come along and said they will give a capability at very low cost. We are very expensive and funds are limited, so someone sees a saving (and promotion of course).
Imagine what would happen if we turned around and said that in a tightly packed urban area, taking away the human eyeball's ability to look outside the cameras field of view would mean the operator being totally lost 75% of the time. We would be accused of trying to scaremonger because of being scared of the sack. So, let them get on with it, hopefully they will see the merits of a LIMITED capability, however paying for 2 assets is expensive. We have also looked into fixed balloon sites with cameras fitted for 24 hour coverage.
Crewless aircraft have their place in a structured force setup, but you will always need the human input. Yesterday we had four lads starburst from a stolen car, the camera stayed with 2 and the crew monitored the other 2. All 4 arrested for a string of offences, a drone would have got 2.:ok:

[jayteeto]

Latest update: Merseyside Police Press Office have issued a statement that this story is untrue. They are not buying these helicopters and have only carried out a study into the possibility of using the drones. The press lied......

[Droopy]

These devices are pretty small; it would be useful to know what size of camera payload [therefore image quality assuming they can't fly lower than we can] is being proposed.

[jayteeto]

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_headline=police-get-mini-spy-copters%26method=full%26objectid=18784143%26siteid=50061-name_page.html

[ShyTorque]

I don't think pilotage contracts are in jeopardy just yet; my earlier comment about twin engines was only partly in jest.

Even a drone would be regulated by the CAA! Dependent on weight, a drone might possibly be classified as a light aircraft. Does anyone in UK yet have an AOC for drones? I've never heard about one.

In my opinion, having flown radio controlled model aircraft and crashed a few, a drone is far less safe over a congested area than a full-sized, piloted aircraft (piloted as in the aircraft, not on the ground).

Rest easy, Jayteeto!

[Bravo73]

http://icliverpool.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100regionalnews/tm_headline=police-get-mini-spy-copters%26method=full%26objectid=18784143%26siteid=50061-name_page.html

My favourite part of that (comedy!) article was:

"A box of tricks including helmet-mounted cameras and metal-detecting gloves to search for weapons is about to be further added to with the introduction of a talking car..."


I bet that the crims in Liverpool are really going to be shaking in their boots when a fleet of these show up... ;)

http://www.mwctoys.com/images/review_kitt_1.jpg

[PANews]

I think that this story may have come from a Rip Van Winkle at the BBC suddenly waking up and discovering the similar story [which was very true and authenticated] relating to a super duper new crime reduction squad in Merseyside that was looking at these craft quite a few weeks ago.

In that instance various US precedents [Los Angeles and Massachusetts if I recall correctly] were mentioned as 'proof' that the concept was proven. As it turned out both quoted operations proved to have even scared the FAA to death and were halted. One was over LA and the other at low level over a crowd of motorcyclists in the middle of nowhere.

There are some 'twin' engine UAVs around [most I have seen are conventional twin tractor monoplane in layout] but it is early days in their development and it may be the assymetrics of an engine failing will be even worse than a single engine failure when the pilot cannot feel the beast slewing around.

[nigelh]

A lot of R22,s havent actually got "pilots" on board so are they technically a "drone" .....and could they be used ?:eek:

[R22DRIVER]

Oi! Now Now!! :=

[22clipper]

Right that's it! Someone post that pic from a few months back of that R22 UAV firing those rockets strapped to its side & I'll provide the text telling Nigel were sending it around to his place to wait in ambush for his next flight.

[md 600 driver]

Building services and aerial photo companies have been using them for years to take video pictures
steve

[Droopy]

So with this not having been a definite plan, today's lunchtime news shows then going for a trial in June. If the image quality is accurate, I go back to my earlier point about the camera payload; my thoughts were....... what the f@ck use is that picture? md600 has no doubt seen these used in construction - very close to the target - though I bet the image quality is nowhere near as good as the sort produced by a portable mast.
Jayteetoo is right, sometimes these donkeys have to make a mistake to learn a lesson - just a shame that it will be funded by the taxpayers of Merseyside, all three of them.....

[on21]

The UK's first police remote control helicopter has taken to the skies.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/6676809.stm

Merseyside Police is using the "spy drone", fitted with CCTV cameras, mainly for tackling anti-social behaviour and public disorder.

The machine is 1m wide, weighs less than a bag of sugar, and can record images from a height of 500m.

It was originally used for military reconnaissance, but is expected to be operational with the force by next month on a three-month trial.
The drone will also be used for monitoring traffic congestion and investigations are to made into its possible role in firearms operations.

http://www.merseyside.police.uk/html/news/news/may/cd21-05b-police.htmthis link has a video.

http://www.microdrones.com/

[g-mady]

22clipper,

Please find that pic! I never saw it a few months back.

http://i15.tinypic.com/4q5lb11.jpg

Its these that are the future, not little RC helicopters. If they are battery powered they only last a few minuites and if petrol powered they only last a little longer.
They wouldn't last a whole football match!

But these things are larger enough scale so the wind is not a problem and fuel will last a reasonable time.

MADY

[bolkow]

I also fly remote control aircraftb and whilst they may suffice with an on board camera for some aerial photograps, keeping one aloft for the amount of time required to monitor crowds etc is simply not feasible. The max time I could get aloft on a 60 sized bolkow (remote control) could be stretched to 45 mins if I added a second 22 ounce duasl feed fuel tank, but thats about it.

[SilsoeSid]

In 'on2's link above, it would appear that the officer operating the drone, not only has to fly the vehicle, but has to also entertain the officers on duty with him by means of a mouth organ!

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42952000/jpg/_42952097_copter_operator203.jpg

I hope he can operate the drone better than he appears to be able to play the mouth organ and I wonder if he also has a drum on his back with the drumstick attached to his heel with a piece of cord!

[H1HU]

watch the video from lunch today
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northwesttonight/
H1HU

[G-CPTN]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42952000/jpg/_42952077_spydrone203.jpg
The machines, which are flown by remote control or using pre-programmed GPS navigation systems, are silent
Silent?
HTF do they get an egg-whisk to be silent?
I think we should be told . . .

[FloaterNorthWest]

Looks good in a clear day with no wind, how would it handle 40kts off the Irish sea with rain drops the same size as itself?

Onboard video looks good if low level but no good for evidence unless hovering next to the subject and by then it would be in the boot of their car or being advertised on ebay.

http://www.microdrones.com/downloads/videos/videos/onboardvideo.wmv

Another folly from a senior officer trying to make a name for himself to get up the next run of the ladder.

Did they consult the aerial surveillance experts at the ASU being spending a money on this? Or is it being offered free to get a foothold in the market?

FNW

[Spunk]

The local TV station tested this during this years "harbour anniversery" in Hamburg.
http://photobucket.com/albums/v424/Captain407/Hafen0058-1.jpg
The local fire brigade and their fire boat had a lot of fun aiming at it with their water cannons :}

[Daft bat]

I wonder how this would go down with the CAA having unmanned platforms flying around CAT A controlled airspace like most of Liverpool, Manchester,Luton etc etc. The first obvious point is the lack of see and avoid, unless they have some fail safe sense and avoid system. I think this is a no brainer to start with. Sounds like some company spending lots of money on the military application and now attempting to get more money out of law enforcement.;)

[JimBall]

When Liverpool won the Champion's League in 05, the homecoming parade saw 3 news helis and at least 2 FW - plus the police ASU. All at around 1000-1500ft.

So - this Thursday could be interesting if there's a win in Athens Wed night!

What a crazy piece of PR. We all know the drone won't work - or produce any evidence that a court would accept.

[ShyTorque]

Wonder what frequency they fly on? :E

[SilsoeSid]

Good point ST,

According to Ofcomm,

"The 35 MHz band is dedicated solely to aeronautical modelling."
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/radiocomms/ifi/licensing/classes/rlans/technical/ofw311/

Of course, there will be a special Home Office type frequency for this purpose, but you can bet your bottom dollar that as soon as the drone is operational the wheels on Merseysides streets will be safe while the tills at Maplins tills ring out loud with the purchases of controller units and frequency chips.

Also being purchased will be TV signal receivers as,
"Telemetry can be transmitted from general, surface or air models back to the controller. The band is 433.050 to 434.790 MHz; the channel spacing is 25 kHz and the maximum radiated power is 10 mW."
You can just see it now....'HI Mum!'

Or for about £200 why not just jam the frequency!
http://www.spyreview.co.uk/2007/01/02/wave-bubble-rf-frequency-jammer/


So thats that sorted. Stop messing about with radio controlled models, save the money and pay the real pilots more!

[SilsoeSid]

Of course this isn't a new concept. I am surprised though that they aren't carrying on with the earlier technology, surely it was more suitable financially!

http://www.dodgy-scouser.com/pics/flyplane.jpg

[VfrpilotPB/2]

Looks like Mighty Gem may have to loose a little weight..!;)

[throw a dyce]

It looks like something out of a catalogue.Hey plod have you got a frequency peg.If it's over 7kg it needs failsafes and permission to operate in CAS.So plod will break rules to fly it?
My little leckie heli doesn't fly too well when the Lipo runs out of juice.That thing will have the autorotation of a 500 pound bomb,and make a pretty good hole in someone's car,roof,or head.If one of those motors stops then you better get a crash helmet.Also aeromodellers try to avoid flying near jo public because of safety,so along come plod and smash one into someone.:ugh:Have a look in the ANO.It does apply to you as well.
It's a gimmick and they will crash so many,that it will pay for a proper chopper.A:mad:holes
Ps.people have been killed by crashing model aircraft.:= They nearly crashed it into the reporter on the clip I saw.

[g-mady]

Hey SilsoeSid

Your on to something, the police would love it "ITS GREEN". No carbon emissions!
Hek, they could use wasps instead and get VTOL performance! :}

MADY

[SilsoeSid]

The only problem with using such technology at a Liverpool match is not finding the 'hot spots' where the hooligan element are, but which supporters are the offenders!!

http://www.dodgyscouser.com/scousers.jpg


http://www.dodgyscouser.com/home.php

[ShyTorque]

Sid, surely if they just fit the device with those boomerang blades off that stealth Australian R-22 they could play "bong a scouser" and the drone could then fly right back to the station, all by itself.

Now where's those 35Mhz crystals for the old radio gear? I've got a full set somewhere.

Sorry for any inappropriate language used - I know some Aussies take offence at the use of the word "bong". (The word "scouser" is fair game, AFAIK).

P.S. Thanks for that photo - I keep bursting out laughing at it :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Just something that occured to me while waiting for Mrs Sid to search the towns shops looking for something to look at! :rolleyes:

All well and good having a GPS position hold, but with a max speed of 15mph, how will that work in all but the stillest days.

Thermally, being over a city can't be the best environment and also isn't Liverpool still near the coast? Even now, EGGP 231150Z 26006KT 230V300 9999 BKN048 20/14 Q1022, with only a 6kt wind, that is half its max windspeed limit for the hover hold facility! With only an endurance of 20 mins, (at what power setting?) Surely, this will drop rapidly with a high wind and thermal lift vector.

[HELOFAN]

Damn , ok where is the link telling me how to post pics..I cant find the thread & the manage attachments button is no where in my view ?

A litle hlp here please.

HF

[SilsoeSid]

OK, hope this makes sense.

Find the url of piccie
If it's on a webpage right click on it and go to 'properties' at bottom of list.
Where it says address (url) copy all of the adress from 'http' to '.jpg/gif' inclusive.

In the reply box you will see a picture of a mountain http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/editor/insertimage.gif
Click on that and paste the copied url into the box that pops up.
Click OK and there you go, the pictures url will have and either side of it.

The picture has to be uploaded somewhere, so you may need a hosting service like photobucket (http://photobucket.com/) to host the pic and enable you to get the url.
In fact once uploaded to photobucket, the pic will be labelled with all the IMG stuff which you can then simply cut paste into the reply without going to the picture icon.

[HELOFAN]

Hmm, what if the pic is in my PC , cant it be uploaded from there?

[SilsoeSid]

'fraid not.

Free registration at http://photobucket.com/register.php?ref=headerregister

Once the account is open, browse for the pic you want then click 'upload'. Once uploaded, the pic will have a url that you use as described above.

[HELOFAN]

Thank you

I know this thread has been around & every time Isee it I think , just read the instructions that have been posted a million times... but alas I contest in my defense that the instructions are not a sticky nor are readilly available when one does start a thread search !!

LOL

Thanks again SilsoSid

[Bravo73]

but alas I contest in my defense that the instructions are not a sticky nor are readilly available when one does start a thread search !!


Ahh, but that depends on where you look. Have a quick butchers in the Aviation History and Nostalgia (http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=86) section.

But here's the link for you:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=203154


;)

[HELOFAN]

:ugh:
:mad:
:hmm:

HF

I swears its not that easy when you search for anything like , posting , picture, etc and variesnt of all.

I figured it would have been easy and come up on rotorheads a million times LOL

Thanks again

HF

[MightyGem]

Looks like Mighty Gem may have to loose a little weight
Hey Peter. If I lose anymore I shall fade away.

[JimBall]

It costs less than £500 an hour to operate, it can stay airborne for over 3 hrs when flown with intelligence, it has a stabilised zoom lens and IR, it can record HiDef pictures that will be useable in court, and it can transmit live for over 50 miles.

It's called the R44 Police variant.

And one day the UK Police forces will wake up.

[SilsoeSid]

It costs less than £500 an hour to operate, it can stay airborne for over 3 hrs when flown with intelligence, it has a stabilised zoom lens and IR, it can record HiDef pictures that will be useable in court, and it can transmit live for over 50 miles. It's called the R44 Police variant.
And one day the UK Police forces will wake up.

Jim,

There are some fundemental flaws in your last post!

SS

Read all about the R44 Police Variant here,
http://www.robinsonheli.com/r44police.htm

[Droopy]

Cart and horse Jim - as long as the UK regulations stay as they are forces will not use singles, regardless of their capabilities. Whether the regulations are suitable is another debate, but don't accuse the police of being somnolent just because they work within the existing framework.

[SilsoeSid]

And please don't start the rumour that after a couple of jam doughnuts and copious amounts of tea, that an airborne time of 3 hours is a good thing... especially on a cold day!!


R44 Police, subject covered here http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=189931&page=12

[JimBall]

Droopy: it can be done under contract as a normal AOC flight. Doesn't need PAOC. 1000ft above nearest highest object within 600m - 500ft in non-congested or under SVFR. Perfect for the camera system.

Advantages far outweigh any limitations.

And if the force buys the aircraft and flies its own employees, it can be private. And can therefore op at night.

No it's not IFR. No it's not a twin. But it is £500 an hour.

[SilsoeSid]

Nice one Jim,

And to save even more money you can get any low houred PPL to fly for you while he/she builds up some hours.

Lets also say, once they get 500hrs under their belt, when they may want a bit more money due to experience, the contract expires and you can then employ another PPL... and so on. The savings would be tremendous!

You could even get the CAA to change all the rules, pay for an officer to do a NPPPL(H) [National Police Private Licence - H] no sort of Nav, IF or compicated stuff required, bonded for say 5 years and the costs would come down even more.

I'm sure urban pursuits would be great fun and the motorways a piece of cake as the robo site claims 135mph, 117 kts, ...with all the kit!!!

Next time I'm up, I shall contemplate what it would be like doing what we are doing, in a R44 Polizei Pursuit Vehicle!

From PAN Heli-Expo March 2007 edition.
Rumour has it that Robinson is trying to trim the unit price of his R44 Police airframe by discarding the propriety sensor turret [from FSI and L3 Wescam]and replacing them with a less sophisticated system.

Even more savings...great!

[Coconutty]

Local news reported yesterday that West Midlands Fire Service in Smethwick, Birmingham are going to trial this device which they are calling "ISIS" ( pronounced "eye-siss" ).

http://s34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/?action=view&current=MicroDrone.flv


A few questions that the news story didn't answer .......

How will it cope with the turbulence etc. generated at the scene of a fire ??

Presuming that it will also be used at more high profile / serious incidents, then it is quite feasible that the local Police helicopter and / or Air Ambulance would also attend. How will this little thing get on with the downdraft from a "proper" emergency services helicopter ?

Being so small and therefore difficult to spot from the air, what would happen ( heaven forbid ) if there were a collision with one of the real ones ?

Does it have lights fitted ??

Will it be used at night ??

"... equipped with a colour camera it can send back live pictures from up to 500 metres away...."
Does that mean it is cleared to 500 metres AGL ??? / Approx. 1640 feet ?

How high above the ground CAN it be flown - legally and physically ??

If it's operating height were restricted ( e.g. by CAA ) then how would the operator know what height it is being flown at - does it have a Rad Alt ??

Would its operating height potentially conflict with Police helicopter and / or Air ambulance ??

No doubt the Fire Service have liased closely with their local Police Helicopter Unit, and the surrounding Air Ambulance Units, and would let them all know every time in advance of it being deployed, wouldn't they :confused: :hmm: :\

"ISIS" - stands for "Incident Support Imaging System".

Perhaps they could redefine that to mean
"I Should Inform Someone................ ? " :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[SilsoeSid]

I saw the article about the fire services drone last night on Midlands Today and the first thing that came to mind, now there is one of these things 'in the patch', was deconfliction, pretty much as Coconutty mentions.

What method would be used to let us know it was up and about? OK you can say it will be obvious, look out for smoke and flames! But surely they will also be used for other fire and rescue service tasks apart from firewatch! Jobs that helicopters are also called to assist in!

Having experienced things like trains running along stretches of track that have had a halt put on them, and train drivers oblivious to officers on the track, who have been assured the trains have been stopped, I wonder if the communication would be good enough.


When a conflict occurs, whos fault would it be?
The helicopter pilots, because he/she should have seen and avoided and given way?
The drone operators, because he/she should have heard and seen the helicopter in the area?

Any chance of a transponder on the drone?

[PANews]

That is the same kit that Merseyside Police were trialling last month... I guess the manufacturers are 'doing the rounds' picking up PR.
There was talk of a colour camera [and in general at the moment images are poor when compared with say an MX-15 on a police helicopter] but not of a thermal imager option.
IF all the boxes are ticked for safety here is a tool they say will be good for spotting floods - maybe once or twice a year for that option - but no sign of the important tool for a fireman... TI.

Information associated with the Merseyside event states that this craft is 1m wide, weighs less than one kilogram [2.2 pounds] and can record images from a height of 500m.
The machine is German and known as the md4-200 a high endurance 4-rotor VTOL craft constructed from carbon and comes with flight controller, navigation controller, gearless brushless motors, double-super FM-receiver, landing gear, antenna, attitude/altitude control, offering a flight duration of about 20 minutes. With that endurance it is very much a local machine.

[Thomas coupling]

There is no legislation affecting this contraption, it is below 7Kg. The CAA kick in when it goes above 20 or23Kg. However, they are making plans for retrospective legislation down to 0Kg:rolleyes: Suffice to say, this device appeared on the scene and caught mostly everyone by surprise - especially the CAA.
Attempts by the CAA to become involved in the Merseysdie operation were met by two fingers from their C.C. :uhoh:

The only "restriction" as such, will be duty of care by the owners. If, by some strange quirk of nature [radio interference, FOD, shot gun pellets, fireworks, etc] it falls out of the sky onto a queue of school children waiting for a bus, then the owner had better have one helluva robust insurance policy (Oh they don't have insurance policies do they in the police, preferring instead to sponsor the risk:D).

There is a future, no doubt for these things, urban UAV's or UAS's as the yanks call them are here to stay in one shape or another. Better get used to them. Don't think for an instant that they are a threat to main stream aerial support.
Another Force is looking at deploying static blimps to monitor games/football matches/suspect areas. Now this looks very promising indeed.

Smile please..........................................

[Coconutty]

.... There's also a UAV ( powered glider type ) that can carry either a two axis stabilized zoomable day camera, or thermal image camera payload that can stay airborne for around 90 minutes, beaming pictures back from a range of 9 miles to a ground station that can remotely control the gimbal movement !

Take off weight is 5 Kg and from the demo I have seen it has some very clever electronics and navigation features :ooh:

It is known as "Casper 250" - Googling finds an interesting video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ST_KkpMRg with further information available by registering wth Sonic Communications in the Uk at http://www.sonic-comms.com

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg