US training towards UK PPL - advice, please [Archive]

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 13:58

Hi, everybody.

I've been lurking for a while, but this is my first post here. Seems like an excellent forum and a nice bunch of people you have here!

So flying is something that's about to fall within my means. I also need an escape from work, and this country, for a little while. It dawned on me that I could do the two together, and still save money, by heading off to the US for ten days or so, and cramming as much flying training as I can in that time. I was thinking of going to the South West, Arizona or the like, as it seems they have the best weather in late Spring - and the best scenery, too.

I'm almost a complete beginner. I did about ten hours on flexwing microlights a year ago (before threat of redundancy put a halt to it), and I did a trial flight in a C152 last year, but that's it. So I intend to do 20-30 hours in my planned excursion - first solo, advanced manoeuvres, maybe a bit of nav - then complete my PPL (and familiarise myself with UK met conditions!) after I return. I'll also get some serious time in with the ground school books and confuser before I go, although I intend to do the exams when I return. Seeing that dual rates on a 172 around Phoenix are $130-140/hour, I'd break even on the flights over, accommodation and car hire after only about 20 hours, compared to UK dual rates at £130-140/hour.

So, can anyone help me with the following questions?

- In the absence of other guidance, I'd presumably be following the FAA syllabus. Would it be possible to make these hours count towards a CAA PPL?

- Would I have to get a visa? (I'm a UK citizen, so I've previously done visa waiver on my trips to the US).

- Can anyone recommend any particular establishments in the South Western USA?

- Is this a sensible thing to do?

Thanks very much for any opinions you can offer!

:ok:

mtw

BackPacker

20th Mar 2007, 15:44

Go to the CAA website, look for a document about approved Flight Training Organizations. This lists all the CAA approved FTOs (duh!). About five of them are in the US, mostly Florida. If you go to any of these organizations (avoid Florida during Hurricane Season though), you will receive a CAA/JAA compliant education and can even obtain a JAA/CAA PPL there (requires a minimum of three weeks though if you're ab-initio).

If you're learning to fly to the FAA syllabus (which obviously you can do anywhere in the US), I don't think you can count these hours towards a JAA PPL.

Yes, you're going to have to obtain a visa. An M-1, temporary student visa to be exact. Visa waiver only applies for holidays or temporary business visitors, not for students. Not a problem, just remember that in summertime a lot of university students apply for these visas too, and it might take a while to get an appointment at the embassy/consulate.

You also need a TSA clearance if you're an "alien" (that's the term they use!) and want to get flight training. http://www.flightschoolcandidates.gov has all the info (if I remember the URL right)

The only establishment I know of in SW USA is Anglo-American Flyers. Never been there, no opinion. There's three places, I think, in Florida. I went to Orlando Flight Training. Search this forum for mine and other opinions. Also a lot of stuff on the others (OBE and Naples I believe) and Moncton in Canada(?).

Is it sensible - tough question. It is far cheaper than obtaining your PPL over here, mostly due to the lower fuel prices and the absence of landing fees. And the exchange rate right now is very advantageous. But you do need to have the money available in one go, you are going to be away for a number of weeks and if your aim is to obtain your PPL in three weeks, it's hard work - no time for other things. And you learn to fly in beautiful American weather (except for the occasional hurricane) and not in the crappy weather we have in Europe. OTOH - with the money you save you can easily buy ten additional flight hours with an instructor here in Europe to learn the differences.

Search pprune. Particularly in the professional study section there's a lot of threads dealing with all these issues, review of schools etc.

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 16:04

Thanks, SoCal App. And BackPacker - brilliant. Very helpful post indeed.

Up-front money isn't a problem, but I don't have the time to take several weeks off, and I'd rather do without the pressure of trying to pass the tests in a very limited space of time. My intention is to just do as much as I can in the time available, taking advantage of the lower costs and good weather - then when I'm back in the UK, get the practice in and ultimately do the tests on the usual "book three sessions a week, fly one" routine we have to deal with in this country. Also, I'd much rather get substantial experience in this country with an instructor before qualifying and being let loose on my own: the flying environment here seems rather different.

I don't expect to save much money overall, but I do hope that a concentrated period to build the basic skills will help my progress, and it seems like a good way to use my holiday allowance, too!

cheers,
mtw

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 16:27

Also, like i said, as you are not planning on completing the course in the US, you need to make sure that you can transition back to a UK flight school with the minimum of fuss. Otherwise you will spend whatever you saved going back over old ground and ultimately end up doing more hours than if you tried to get it completed at the same school...

OK. I'd assumed, perhaps naively, that if my log-book has (say) 30 hours signed-off with all the appropriate exercise numbers, then an instructor at my next flight school would do maybe one session to check my skills matched the logbook, and if no particular revision was required, we'd carry on where I'd left off. Is this excessively optimistic?

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 16:31

Oh yes, and good point about the exams before soloing. Thanks! I'd be very happy to take them out there, they needn't take much time - I'd just need to do the study before I went out.

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 18:36

OK, done a spot of research (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1211). For anyone else who finds this thread useful in future, there are currently six FTOs outside JAA states (i.e. in the USA), doing CAA-approved PPL courses:

Naples Air Centre (http://www.naples-air-center.com/)

Cabair College of Air Training t/a European Pilot Training Academy (Kissimmee & Moncton) (http://www.cabair.com/modular/fla.htm)

European Flight Training LLC (Florida) (http://www.flyeft.com/)

Western Air (Thruxton) Ltd (http://www.westernairthruxton.co.uk/) in association with Sunrise Aviation, Florida (http://www.flysunrise.com/index.htm) (but neither of their websites mention a link)

As BackPacker suggested, they're all in Florida, except for Anglo-American Aviation in San Diego.

I suspect that I'm going to be living in the south-west Midlands by the middle of the year, making my list of reasonably-accessible airfields to be Halfpenny Green, Shobdon, Gloucester and Wellesbourne. But none of the US FTOs listed have partners at these airfields. Oh well.

Thank you very much for your helpful suggestions. I'll put any more interesting and useful things I find out on this thread!

cheers,
mtw

BackPacker

20th Mar 2007, 20:49

SoCal, do you have official information or a quote from some verifyable source that says that if you're doing flight training following the JAA syllabus, that you do NOT require TSA clearance, but if you do FAA training, you do?

Because, when *I* went there (year and a half ago) for my JAA PPL, *I* needed a TSA clearance. And if I check the flightschoolcandidates website, the only thing it says is:

"Category 3

o Candidates who request training for aircraft with a maximum certificated takeoff weight of 12,500 pounds or less.
"

No mention of the word FAA or JAA. And I would suspect that the TSA would not want to make that distinction anyway, since this is an anti-terrorist thing above all else. If JAA students were exempt, that would be a big loophole for the likes of the 9/11 terrorists, wouldn't it?

Other than that, your advice is very sound: if you only want to build hours towards the PPL, but not do the PPL skills test in the US, make sure beforehand that either the UK and the US school you're using have a standing agreement (like Cabair and OFT, I suppose, have) or let your local instructor contact the school to arrange something.

If you're only going to be hour building, make sure you negotiate with the school some sort of pay as you go scheme. When I arrived for my PPL they made me put down the whole (estimated) amount of money for the whole PPL in one go. I purposely paid a part of this by credit card, despite the 2% uplift they charged me, so that the credit card company would be on my side in case of problems.

If you intend to do solos in the US, I don't think you would need to have one JAA exam done, because you'll be flying those solos on an FAA student pilot license and all they require is a very simple 17-question exam on a few specific things with regards to solo flight (not in class B airspace for instance) and the local environment. But you do need that FAA student pilot license and, guess what, that is your FAA class 3 medical. Yes, you do need to visit a qualified US doctor, pee in the pot and do a few other simple things (and pay the 100 USD) to get an FAA class 3 medical before you're allowed to fly solo. They don't recognise a JAA class 2 medical there.

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 21:36

Thanks, guys.

If you intend to do solos in the US, I don't think you would need to have one JAA exam done, because you'll be flying those solos on an FAA student pilot license and all they require is a very simple 17-question exam on a few specific things with regards to solo flight (not in class B airspace for instance) and the local environment.

Aha. Well that's more straightforward than seven exams!

Slightly off-topic - but am I right in thinking that on the CAA PPL course, there are certain exams that need to be passed before first solo? I guess that if I was doing the CAA course in the US, there would be an interesting mixture of FAA and CAA regulations in effect. But clearly the six organisations that do this know the score.

(Incidentally, I posted earlier with the names and web links for all six organisations that do this according to the CAA, for the benefit of anyone searching the forum in future - but with all those links in it, it got diverted to the moderator! Doh. Maybe the post will appear tomorrow.)

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 21:48

Other than that, your advice is very sound: if you only want to build hours towards the PPL, but not do the PPL skills test in the US, make sure beforehand that either the UK and the US school you're using have a standing agreement (like Cabair and OFT, I suppose, have) or let your local instructor contact the school to arrange something.

Hmm. That's to make sure that the Record Of Training gets successfully transferred, and that the new instructor is confident of its provenance, right? Right now, I'm not sure where I'll be completing my PPL, because I'll probably have moved to the west Midlands later in the year, and it seems that all the flying schools with that kind of arrangement (Cabair, and Western Air at Thruxton, according to the CAA) are clustered in south-east England.

Not sure how I'll sort that one out, but thanks very much for pointing it out. I imagine that the CAA/JAA training outfits in the US without partnerships have encountered this problem before, so I'll discuss it with them. I figure I'll be able to make it work somehow.

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 22:02

I think you will find that most people come to the US to complete the JAR PPL as quickly as possible - not to half do it and then go back home to finish it.

Understood. I was also under the impression that quite a lot of Brits book three weeks' leave from work, try to do the "CAA PPL in 21 days" and fail, which might give rise to the same situation.

Remember , there is plenty of paperwork and cost involved in getting to the US for flight training. Not least getting the visa, going to London for the interview etc.

Sure. I've done the sums, and with £/$ the way it is, break-even is still around 20 hours - which I'll achieve in less than two weeks, as opposed to probably 3-4 months of weekend sessions in this country.

BackPacker

20th Mar 2007, 22:02

SoCal, very interesting. Didn't know that. But if you're ab-initio, you're not only training towards your JAA PPL, but simulatenously for your FAA student pilot license as well, aren't you? Wouldn't that close the loophole that you described?

It would be very welcome if you are right, because getting TSA clearance, even if you're only a "category 3 alien" is a hassle, particularly the thing about getting your fingerprints taken at an authorized facility, as there are only four authorized locations in the whole of Europe (or at least there were only four when I had to go through this). You can NOT (or at least, then, could NOT) get this done at a US embassy or consulate, despite the fact that they do have fingerprinting equipment. State Department wouldn't cooperate with Homeland Security. Really. I e-mailed back and forth with the TSA about this but nothing could be done about it. They suggested that I simply drove to Paris (from Amsterdam) to get my prints taken there, as that was the nearest facility. (Amsterdam-Paris is a good five-hour drive, one-way!)

I had my fingerprints taken upon arrival in the US and as a category 3 alien, I was able to start training as soon as the TSA confirmed that they received them. But as a category 1 alien (MTOW >= 12.500 lbs), you can only start training when TSA has cleared you - which might take up to 30 days!

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 22:06

BackPacker

20th Mar 2007, 22:26

Michael, I just spent a good 10 minutes searching for the word "FAA" in the official PDF with the official ruling (from the flightschoolcandidates website) and I could not find any reference to what SoCal claims, namely that TSA only applies to candidates wishing to train for FAA certificates. So I respectfully disagree with SoCal still, and I suggest you either read the full ruling yourself or ask your flight school of choice or the TSA/AFSP directly. But I think the FAQ is cutting corners in this respect.

Do not take this lightly though. As soon as you made your final decision as to what school and what period you intend to go, start working on the paperwork (M-1 visa, TSA) ASAP. It really did take me a month to get an interview at the embassy!

Also, despite the fact that you might indeed not have to do a single exam (except the silly 17-question exam which is more of a "cover the schools ass" thing than anything else) it helps enormously if you've got all the theory learned. Things simply fall into place much quicker.

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 22:36

cheers, BackPacker!

I agree that there seems to be an inconsistency on the flightschoolcandidates website - and given that you were made to jump through the hoops, I'd guess that you're right! In which case, I imagine that the person writing the FAQ didn't envisage students in the US studying for non-FAA qualifications, so wrote "FAA certificate" when he or she meant "any flight training certificate".

I'm thinking of going to Anglo-American in San Diego - trawling the forum, it seems that a number of people have said good things about them in the past. I'll contact them, and update the thread with pertinent facts.

tangovictor

20th Mar 2007, 22:57

don't do it, whats wrong with learning here ?

LH2

20th Mar 2007, 23:01

Look for the "Fly in Spain" thread a few lines down here in the Private Flying section.

At least you won't be treated like a criminal for wanting to train in Jerez. No fingerprints, or full cavity search or any of that crap when you step off your Ryanair flight :rolleyes:

Oh, and the Civil Guard will not confiscate your water or sandwiches as a pilot (private or commercial). I guess they get paid a salary and can afford to buy their own. :}

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 23:01

Thanks very much, SoCal! Very kind of you.

What's the "Part 61 Written" - is that an FAA exam?

Not sure I want to wait until September, so maybe I'll contact the Florida places.

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 23:04

don't do it, whats wrong with learning here ?

it's almost twice the hourly cost, and half the flyable days.

michaelthewannabe

20th Mar 2007, 23:06

Look for the "Fly in Spain" thread a few lines down here in the Private Flying section.Interesting thought. Thanks.

Hmm, €129/hour for tuition in a C150. Not bad, but a fair bit more than US rates if you're paying in Sterling. Then again, the flight out there is about £300 cheaper.

(edited to correct the hourly rate above - and see my post on the fly-in-spain.com thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=3189818#post3189818) for further comparison)

tangovictor

21st Mar 2007, 00:29

is it, i doubt it, in reality, when your away from home, every single thing you do, costs you,
I was speaking with an English guy only last week, who, I guess doesn't wish to embarrass himself, he told me, that he came home early, from a certain FLA flying school, due to there total disregard to safety, apparently the kid teaching him to fly, was on his mobile most of the time, along with a long list of other faults, I did ask him to tell all here, & inform the CAA,
I'm not anti American, in fact I have been there many times, however, as all ready stated, being treated like a criminal, upon entry, bearing in mind WE are fighting alongside there forces, so much for the " special relationship" it seems like one way traffic to me, why are British Passport holders barred from the green card lottery ?
Stay at home, learn to fly, where your going to fly

michaelthewannabe

21st Mar 2007, 08:50

Thank you for your thoughts and your kind concern, Tango Victor.

You're free to doubt me, but I have done the sums and I have spent many periods of time in the USA, so I think I have a good understanding of the costs. And unless I've made a gross error on my spreadsheet, the £60/hour saving of flight training in the US rapidly adds up to pay for the journey there, the accommodation, and additional living costs you mention.

But as I said before, saving money isn't my primary aim here - financially, I aim to break even compared to achieving the same hours in the UK. The point is that it enables me to complete roughly half my basic training in a concentrated and efficient way, and brings achievement of my PPL several months closer.

I'm sorry to hear of your acquaintance's bad experience in Florida. Searching these forums, I've found glowing endorsements of a number of US FTOs doing CAA courses and relatively few complaints, from which I conclude that the bad experience was a misfortune no more common than sub-standard service from a UK FTO.

If the unfortunate state of global politics dissuades you from training in or visiting the US, I can understand that. But for me, the moderate inconvenience of the bureaucratic hoops appears not to outweigh the benefits of US flight training, and perceived asymmetry of inter-governmental relationships is irrelevant.

englishal

21st Mar 2007, 11:07

total disregard to safety, apparently the kid teaching him to fly, was on his mobile most of the time, along with a long list of other faults, I did ask him to tell all here, & inform the CAA,
I'm not anti American, in fact I have been there many times, however, as all ready stated, being treated like a criminal, upon entry, bearing in mind WE are fighting alongside there forces, so much for the " special relationship" it seems like one way traffic to me, why are British Passport holders barred from the green card lottery ?
Stay at home, learn to fly, where your going to fly

Nothing illegal about being on a mobile phone in a light aeroplane in the USA (or even a heavy jet) so long as you are VFR. I've phoned LA Center myself from the cockpit ;)

Last time I arrived in LA from LHR, I was off the plane, through imigration and collecting my bag in 20 minutes. No accusations, just matter of fact questions: "Why are you here?", "How long are you going to stay?", "enjoy your vacation".

In LA, realistic hotel costs (Long Beach) is $1000 per month. FLights can be bought for £330 easily.

One thing regarding TSA, to SOLO in the USA you WILL need an FAA student permit and be signed off by an FAA instructor. Not sure whether that will mean that you are subject to TSA or not....

tangovictor

21st Mar 2007, 17:13

re the comment > made to feel like a criminal, I was quoting someone else
comment re green card lottery > I wouldn;t enter it even if I could, my point is the country that " prides " itself on equality, is in fact NOT,
I have no wish to work anywhere, did that once, its ok if you have to I guess.
re the mobile, its not allowed in the UK, and I doubt, if its allowed in the US, the so called trainer, is susposed to be monitoring, the student, not chatting to his friends.
end of whine

michaelthewannabe

21st Mar 2007, 18:54

SoCal App, you're a star! Thank you very much.

BackPacker

21st Mar 2007, 19:34

Well done, SoCal.

tangovictor

21st Mar 2007, 22:57

quite correct, hence my saying so, hearsay, I wish he would come forward,

Blue Albatross

22nd Mar 2007, 07:05

Hi Michael,

I went to Anglo American in San Diego in September/October last year. Firstly, I would strongly advise to think about staying there for MORE than 10 days, and maybe try a more reasonable amount of time like 3 weeks. I gave myself 4 weeks, and what with planes going tech and cancelled lessons I was right up against it in the end when I had to sit my GFT (General Flight Test). So please bear that in mind....also, take a look at this guys blog....he's finding himself right up against it also simply due to his poor instructor, bad planning and the fact that he tossed about on day trips and not focusing on the job at hand....learning to fly. www.aviationadventure.*************

Anyway, now to answer some of your questions:

If you plan on flying in the UK, then getting an FAA licence will inhibit you somewhat. You'll either have to resort to flying "N" reg aircraft in blighty or go through the rigmarol of converting your FAA ticket to JAA, which I've heard is easier said than done. I would advise going to one of the CAA approved schools and getting your JAR PPL(A)

In order to learn to fly in the US you need an M1 student visa, and once in the US you then need to get finger printed and send off an approval request to the TSA (Transport Safety Authority). Give yourself about 2 months to sort out your visa. You'll need documentation from the school to bring with you to the US embassy.

for JAA, there's only one school in South Western USA...Anglo American Aviation. And from what I've heard, they're fully booked until July! But beware....that will mean that you'll have to fight to make sure you get the flying hours, and I again advise against trying to do it in 10 days, especially if you have your ground exams to do aswell.

On non-sensible thing is the timeline you're giving yourself :-) We have a buddy, Mark "the machine" who did his ground exams and flying in 10 days, but he was an exception and he basically hogged the planes for a while to make sure he got the flying hours. It's doable, but just about and very stressful with no room for cock-ups like weather or planes going tech.

One thing I would suggest is thinking about Spain. It's beautiful weather, close to home and you also get your JAR PPL. I've heard good things about these guys...check them out http://www.fly-in-spain.com/en/index.php

Good luck with your flying and I hope you get your wings very soon.

Claython

Blue Albatross

22nd Mar 2007, 07:08

Hi SOCAL,

Actually, the TSA clearance is for EVERYONE. We all had to get it done when we did the JAR course!

michaelthewannabe

22nd Mar 2007, 08:04

Thanks very much for your comments, Blue Albatross. Andrew Lucas' blog is illuminating.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I'm not intending to actually complete my PPL in 10 days! Rather, that's the kind of timeframe I have available, and I want to get as much of a headstart towards my PPL as possible in that time. So I'm just looking to do as much flying as possible, hopefully at least 20 hours, which would bring me to about half-way through the course. I'll also have studied the groundschool, so I'll arrive ready for the Air Law exam and any others that the school considers a pre-requisite to soloing. I'll then finish the course in my own time at a local flying club in the UK.

I got an email back from AAA yesterday, indicating that they're fully booked for a while (although their PA28 is available). But since it seems that I should allow three months for the visa and TSA bureaucracy, and I'd like to do this soon, I'm starting to conclude that those guys at Jerez might be a better option.

BackPacker

22nd Mar 2007, 16:38

With only five locations or so in Europe, and no agreement in place between the State Department and the Department of Homeland Security to get printed at the embassy/consulate (*), it will be virtually impossible to get fingerprinted before you travel to the US. So you need to go to a Sheriffs office as soon as you arrive in the US (check they're open), get fingerprinted there, submit the documents, hang around until the TSA acknowledges receipt (might take up to five days) and only then start flight training.

When I was there the school, at that time, never awaited the TSA "receipt" mail but sent me in the air straight away. Although I did not solo yet at that time. But with the new spot checks of the TSA (as reported by SoCal), the flight school might just stick to the rules and not allow you to receive training until the TSA has said so. Which, for a cat 3 alien, is at the point where the TSA acknowledges reception of the fingerprints.

(*) The ridiculous thing is that every US embassy/consulate has fingerprinting equipment, because they require your fingerprint for your visa! But the TSA doesn't accept these.

For a cat 1 alien (flight training above 12.500 lbs MTOW) it's even worse. You need to hang around waiting for the TSA to actually clear you before you can initiate training. This can take up to 30 days.

The whole TSA thing is very easy. It's just that you cannot get fingerprinted, for all practical purposes, before you get to the US.