Hour Building in USA for a JAA Licence

[Helipilot1982]

I feel that i must warn every pilot who is hour building for a JAA licence about an hour building programme flying a traffic helicopter in Los Angeles.

I saw an advert for building PIC time in a Bell 206, flying for a well known radio station in Los Angeles. Without further consideration for the scheme - i booked in to fly for them for 2 weeks. The scheme was advertised to fly as PIC for 3 hours a day for $135/hour.:O Happy Days!!!

I went out and everything went to plan. I learnt so much about flying in a commercial environment and had a great time building hours in a turbine aircraft and i also got to meet a few celebs. I subsequently returned to the UK with another 30 hours B206 PIC time in my logbook. I used these hours to count towards the PIC and TT hour requirement to enable me to start the JAA CPL course. This course was completed and the examiner came down and looked at my logbook before my flight test and told me that i couldn't count these hours towards a JAA licence issue. This would have left me extremely short on the hours needed to take the test and for licence issue had i not been a foreign ICAO fixed-wing CPL holder. The hours logged in LA had to be REMOVED from my logbook and the hours were for nothing (not to mention the extra money needed to pay for more flying hours when it comes to gaining the 70 PIC hours needed for my first twin rating):ugh:.

The reason given by the CAA is that the aircraft is being flown by 2 qualified pilots. I did not sign for the aircraft or start/shutdown the heli and i flew from the left hand seat. Therefore the time cannot be logged as P1 or P2 as a B206 is a single pilot helicopter, despite me flying for the whole flight. They cant be logged as dual either as the other pilot was not a CFI.

I am not bitter about the scheme as you can log the time as PIC for an FAA licence and i did have a fantastic time and got alot out of the flying. I am however writing this piece as a WARNING for fellow JAA pilots looking to build hours on a budget and obtain a licence with the minimum hour requirements.

I feel that it is my duty to inform everyone (even experienced pilots who may advise wannabe CPL pilots) that these hour CANNOT be logged at all for a JAA licence!!!! Please dont make the same mistake as me!!!!

You live and learn.;) Happy Flying

[Gordy]

This is an issue about whether you are going to use the hours gained "for the purpose of the issuance of a certificate or rating". I cannot talk for the JAA requirements, however, this is my interpretation of the FAA side of the house:
The Jetranger is certified for single pilot, and the important bit is "flying from the right seat". Therefore, in the eyes of the FAA, the person in the right seat is the PIC. A properly certified CFI, can act as PIC from any seat having dual controls, thereby allowing another pilot to act as PIC receiving dual from the other seat.
Therefore, in the case mentioned above, because the guy in the right seat did NOT hold a CFI, you CANNOT log PIC. This issue recently came up during the training of military pilots in civil aircraft. Even though the "instructors" held military IP qualifications, they did not hold civilian CFI licenses, and could not act as PIC and instruct from the left seat. Luckily the "students" were not logging time "for the purpose of the issuance of a certificate or rating", therefore it was a moot point if they flew in the left seat or not.

As "Helipilot1982" put it---Be careful and research BEFORE you put down your hard earned money.

[Gordy]

The right seat is from the Bell 206B3 Flight manual page 1-3 rev 8 dated October 6 2000.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/206b3p1-3.jpg

What this means to ME, is that a duly rated "pilot" has to be in the right seat. For example, supposing a private pilot wanted to give a non pilot friend a ride in the aircraft, he/she would have to fly from that seat. A flight instructor could give the same friend a ride, but fly from the left seat.
He is authorised by FAR 61.195(g):
g)Position in aircraft and required pilot stations for providing flight training.(1) A flight instructor must perform all training from in an aircraft that complies with the requirements of §91.109 of this chapter.
(2) A flight instructor who provides flight training for a pilot certificate or rating issued under this part must provide that flight training in an aircraft that meets the following requirements—
(i) The aircraft must have at least two pilot stations and be of the same category, class, and type, if appropriate, that applies to the pilot certificate or rating sought.
(ii) For single-place aircraft, the pre-solo flight training must have been provided in an aircraft that has two pilot stations and is of the same category, class, and type, if appropriate.

It would be my interpretation that the guy in question could not "act" as PIC unless the person in the designated "pilot" seat holds a CFI rating, or he holds a CFI rating himself. Obviously this is all open to interpretation, different FAA inspectprs have different opinions. I personally would not mess with it, and would go with the most restrictive.

[thecontroller]

I interpret the flight manual as saying "if there is one pilot on board, he must sit in the right" - same as the R22 limitations.

you can log PIC in either seat, as long as you are rated in category and class, or you are flying solo under a CFI's endorsement.

[Lord Mount]

Taking the argument to the theoretical conclusion, as the Bell 47 is flown single pilot from the left seat, due to W&B, does that mean I cannot count any of my Bell 47 PIC hours?

LM

[Gordy]

As stated, I think it is open to interpretation. I believe that at a very minimum, there has to be a rated pilot in the right seat, UNLESS a rated CFI is flying the left seat.
Therefore, to take it one step further, one COULD deduce that without a CFI in either seat, ie just rated pilots, that the person in the right seat would be the PIC. Again there is a difference between "logging" and "acting as" PIC.
Maybe the big question is this: Who would be the PIC, in the eyes of the FAA or insurance company should there be a mishap, or violation? There was such an argument many years ago, namely the "Walkup" decision. I am not a lawyer, (yet anyway), and I do not have the decision in front of me, but it hinged on who was to be violated when an aircraft violated airspace. From memory, there were 2 rated pilots on board, one had thousands of hours and an ATP, the other was a low time CFI. It was determined that, because instruction was being given, the CFI was the PIC and therefore liable for the "actions" of the aircraft.
Maybe, flying lawyer could enlighten us?

[Gordy]

Quote:
personally i think the FAA system of allowed pilots to log PIC for any flight if they have a PPL is a daft idea. the JAA way is much more sensible. ie if you are receiving instruction then the student logs it as "pilot under training" (P/UT) and the instructor logs it as "pilot in command" (P1).

Both systems have their good and bad points, I could go off about both, but I wont. I think any rules that allow pilots to gain experience and "guidance" from flying with more experienced pilots AND allow them to still log it as PIC is good. The FAA system does require that if a CFI is on board that it is noted. Lets face it, regardless of how it is logged, hours in a logbook really mean nothing, it comes down to how well you fly.

[Gordy]

Quote:
well, digressing somewhat....here in the UK it never seems to come down to how well you fly or how many hours you have. it comes down to what type ratings you have, what turbine experience you have, and luck....

Shhhhhhh, AND.... who you know, your accent, what charities you donate to----or have I just opened up the bag of worms................

[Bronx]

Take 2 pilots in a 206 for an hour share the flying 50/50.
Does the British CAA really say the guy in the Left seat can't log his 30 minutes flying?

The guy in the right seat can log his 30 minutes.
Do they say he can log the other 30 as well just because he was sitting in the Right seat even though he wasn't flying? Or do they just pretend it was flying itself for 30 minutes? :confused:

When ever I think the FAA's got some dumb ideas, I just remember some things I read here about the British CAA. :rolleyes:

[Winnie]

Is not the whole deal about "double dipping"?

That the JAA/CAA/CAA-N/TCand others will only allow 1 person (ONE) to log as PIC of an aircraft, whereas the FAA will allow both a CFI rated pilot AND the holder of a PPL flying together BOTH can log as PIC, but one must log dual received??

This is what the JAA/CAA and others are frowning on. Only 1 person can be PIC of an aircraft, and that person will be determined prior to starting the A/C.

Makes sense to me. and I hold FAA/TC and CAA-N licenses....

:bored:

[Heliport]

Winnie Makes sense to me
If we fly together for 2 hours in a single crew helicopter that you've booked out and we fly exactly an hour each, would it make sense to you if I wasn't entitled to log the hour I fly?

I can see why the CAA might say someone who isn't flying and isn't giving instruction shouldn't be able to log the time, but what sense does it make to say that the pilot who is flying can't log it? :confused:

[Winnie]

Yes sir, I agree to that, but the PIC was designated prior to take off.
In this case BOTH occupants are logging PIC ALL the time, in which I disagree, and I think is what the CAA man disagreed to as well, how can you receive instruction and still log PIC... US System, not meant to be understood.
You and I both agree to the point of both being able to log PIC, but not logging PIC the entire flight each.
Just as if the North sea guys started both to log as captain, just because they both are licensed and certified (if that is the case)

But I digress and we agree.

[Heliport]

In this case BOTH occupants are logging PIC ALL the time, in which I disagree, and I think is what the CAA man disagreed to as well,
Helipilot1982 wasn't receiving instruction. He was qualified to fly the aircraft.
(And the other pilot wasn't an instructor.)

Whether or not the other pilot logs the hours doesn't alter the fact that Helipilot1982 was flying - yet the CAA man said his hours don't count.
Does that seem sensible to you?

[Gordy]

Because neither one of them holds a CFI license, only ONE can log the flight time as PIC. THEY COULD SPLIT IT UP AND EACH LOG HALF. Helipilot1982 cannot log the time IF the other pilot does. The other pilot has every right to log it. Firstly, he was in the "right seat", (the one designated by the type certificate), and, secondly they were conducting commercial work, ie traffic watch. Helipilot1982 by his own admission did not hold a commercial license and therefore, is not able to "act" as PIC on this flight.

[Ioan]

It's in situations like this that I do wonder whether the whole PIC / P2 / PUT / P1S etc system could do with a complete revamp. I for one am never sure quite what to log when flying with another qualified pilot.

Surely for VFR only it should be as simple as
*Command time (ie with decision making and legal ramifications)
*Handling time (hands on)

Wouldn't that make more sense in a logbook?
Training you'd have HT but not CT.
Flying solo for a PPL but before passing skills test you could get both, since lets face it, you are the one making the decisions. The instructor could also get CT (he / she is partly responsible for decision making).
While flying as the only type qualified pilot you get CT and HT.
Flying multi pilot a/c or single pilot a/c with another type qualified pilot, CT goes to one person at a time, as does handling.

Would be a lot easier!
In this case the guy from the company would get CT, while helipilot1982 would get HT.

And Helipilot 1982 - thanks for the heads up. I was actually looking at doing the very same traffic watch as a way of building hours quickly between CPL and FI.

[kissmysquirrel]

Heliport, I didn't actually realise you were a helicopter pilot. Anyway, A friend of mine went to LA to do 206 time with Capt. Chuck or whoever it was, and the CAA were saying they would gve him 50% of the time he had accrued in the a/c, eventually I believe he got full hours flown as logged but it was to be looked into further by UK CAA.

Maybe because one guy had logged P1/US even though he was sitting in back.!!!!

[Bravo73]

Whether or not the other pilot logs the hours doesn't alter the fact that Helipilot1982 was flying

IMHO, Helipilot1982 might well have been 'flying' but I would argue whether or not he was actually 'in command' (as in PIC).

Aside from not actually starting up or shutting down the aircraft (although this task is often delegated to the co-joe in multi-crew ops), I doubt if Helipilot1982 had any input into where the aircraft was actually flown to. (I imagine that he was 'directed' by his companion.) I also doubt that in the event of an emergency, whether or not Helipilot1982 would've been on the controls. I suspect that his companion would've taken control.

This is (of course) just speculation on my part but during the above scenarios, it would appear as if Helipilot1982's companion was actually 'in command'. It would then seem only fair that the CAA might take a dim view on Helipilot1982 logging the time as 'PIC'.

[Helipilot1982]

Ioan - your welcome!!

Kissmysquirrel - would it be possible to get the exact details in a PM of the chap you know of, so i can approach the CAA with a similar case in the hope that they may credit some/all of the hours. They should keep some form of continuity and cant have different rules for everyone. Its worth a try I think.

Thanks for your thoughts everyone - seems im not the only one who is confused by this!!

[chester2005]

When i was down at Gatwick a while ago , having my B206 rating applied to my licence in preparation for a trip to the USA which was going to include some "Left seat Traffic Watch" flying, I asked PLD about the logging of hours .

Their response was quite simple.

If you are flying a N reg helicopter in US airspace with a US certificate (Even one issued on the back of a JAA licence) then you log the time according to the FAA rules and regulations.

This is then accepted by the CAA.

According to my 206 manual.
Nowhere does is say that the flying HAS to be done from the right unless that is the ONLY seat occupied.
It does say that it CAN be flown from the left seat if the dual controls are fitted.

According to FARs Part61.51(e)
A ...Pilot may log PIC time only for the time during which that person...
is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has priviledges....

IMHO If you are flying the aircraft from whichever seat you can log flying time because you are FLYING. It has to be PIC because you are flying it and if you bust someones airspace then you would be responsible NOT the person who was telling you which way to go.

I cannot find any reference as to the PIC being the one who starts and shuts down an engine!!!

If two people are logging PIC time and one of them is not an instructor then that is wrong.

I have flown with Chuck as someone has already mentioned him and yes he does the start up and shut down and yes if the engine flamed out i am sure that he would take control, but in all honesty it is his helicopter and i think he knows it better than me and i cannot blame him for that.

I have never asked him if he logs the time when i am flying as it does not matter to me, I log the time when i am flying and because i am he should not. If he does then surely that is his problem not mine. He is not an instructor and according to the FARS i can log the time as PIC and as a one pilot ship only one person can.

An average flight is 3.0 hours from start up to shut down with me only logging 2.8, all of it as PIC.
When i aplied for my JAA night Qualification the CAA counted all the time in my logbook towards the requirement including the time flown with Chuck.

Obviously just my experience and opinion.

Regards Chester:ok:

[chester2005]

"but...i think.. the original poster did not have a FAA licence, and the 206 pilot he flew with was not a CFI so he (the poster) couldnt log it."

Controller
Yes Chuck is not a CFI but don't all pilots flying in the USA have to be doing so on a FAA issued certificate whether that be a Temporary airmens certificate or one already issued on the back of you JAR licence.


To be able to log the time flying left seat with Chuck you need either;

An unrestricted FAA certificate with a sign off for B206 or

An FAA certificate (issued on the back of your JAA licence) which states that all restrictions imposed on said licence still count. AND
The JAA licence must have a valid 206 type rating endorsed upon it to be able to log time in a 206

I cannot find anywhere in the FARS that states how a second pilot (not flying) ie. Chuck can log time whilst a rated pilot is flying.

So if i log time in a single pilot ship whilst someone else is doing the flying i know i am in the wrong but surely that does not invalidate the hours of the other person actually doing the flying.

Just my opinion again.

Regards Chester:ok:

[kissmysquirrel]

Helipilot1982, check you PM's

[Helipilot1982]

Hey guys, just for confirmation i did have a temporary airman's certificate based on my UK licence prior to to doing this flying and i was 206 rated on my JAR licence. As other pilot did not log any of the time - i saw no problem with logging the time but the CAA has different ideas.

Does anyone think that i should approach the CAA again with these arguments?

KMS - thanks for the PM

[nigelh]

You should definitely go back and kick ASS with the campaign against aviation. Time should be able to be logged for any flight were you are manipulating the controls on an aircraft you are rated on ( there are no ratings/endorsements on faa licences are there...should know as i am cfi!)
I myself have 1200 hrs logged whilst smoking strange cigarettes and drinking beer in the back of 206,s in Texas :D well i reckoned i was "flying".....

[Helipilot1982]

NigelH - can i just ask what you did in Texas - sounds interesting and i wouldn't mind doing the same!!

[Helipilot1982]

Okay - I approached the CAA with some arguements that were presented on this thread, and this is what was said.

From the Head of Policy:

" I can confirm that the original decision to disallow the hours to be entered in JAA/UK as P1 for the purpose of claiming captaincy is CORRECT in accordance with the Recording of Flight Time regulations as stated in JAR FCL 2 and the ANO"

Apparently, in other cases where the hours had accredited for the issue of a JAA licence, the CAA stated that:

"If the CAA was made aware of the full circumstances it would not have allowed such crediting"

I was also informed to read the restrictions in FAR Pt 61.75 regarding this matter!!! :hmm: :confused:

An article will also be issued in the next edition of Helicopter Training.com regarding this issue.

So that is that - at least I tried :ok:

HP 82

[chester2005]

I agree with the Controller

The CAA are surely wrong in this matter.

I have just read FAR 61.75 and it states that "may act as a pilot of a civil aircraft in accordance with the private pilot priviledges authorised my this part"

FAR 61.75 in only about getting a PPL issued on the back of a foreign licence.

According to FAR 61.51 (e)(i) you log PIC time as the sole manipulator of the controls.

In the case of flying the 206 with Chuck (not a CFI) i personally cannot see how anyone other than the Pilot flying can log any time whatsoever.

If only the PF can log any time then how can the CAA not allow it???

:confused: :confused: Chester:ok:

[Bravo73]

chester2005,

But the CAA would probably argue (quite rightly) that although helipilot1982 had his hands on the controls, he wasn't actually 'in command'. (Think of him as a very inaccurate autopilot. ;)) This is highlighted by the Head of Policy's reference to "P1 for the purpose of claiming captaincy".

And they probably bought up FAR 61.75 because it refers to "the private pilot priviledges authorised my(sic) this part". Wasn't the aircraft on a commercial job (ie traffic watch) at the time?