Option, but you've waived your option. Didn't you know?

[MadAxeMan]

I've just had a very bemusing chat with that nice man from PMA. After exchanging pleasantries, and asking about my replacement, I enquired as to when he needed to know that I confirm that I wished to exercise my 16/38 option. I was somewhat bemused to hear that I 'had already waived my option' :eek: .
Apparently, it is one of the great new features of JPA. NOW, you have to carefully keep track of the exact date on which you have 365 days to go, not difficult for most of us who are counting every single one, perhaps. Then YOU have to tell them that you wish to exercise your option. How exactly one does this I am unsure, AS THEY HAVE NOT TOLD ANY ONE.:ugh:
I guess that PMA are now so desperate to keep people that they have to continually find creative ways of duping servicemen into serving longer.:{
Has anyone else had this experience? Any ideas on get out clauses, I guess PVR springs to mind? Although having to take a pay cut because they have changed the rules and not told anyone is a bit galling.

[StopStart]

I didn't know there was a 16/38 "option"....thought that was it unless offered further service :confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

Service beyond 16/38 used to be offered about 2 1/2 years before the exit date. Then, if you decided to remain you merely continued and did not have to say a dickie bird. If, OTOH, you decided to go all you had to do was wander into PSF at the appropriate juncture - about 10 weeks - and claim resettlement and terminal. It was the one occasion where you could keep PMA in the dark.

After a number of nail biters they changed the rules and you had to accept or reject the offer. If you did not respond then they assumed you had opted to waive your option and accept the offer.

[RETDPI]

Don't forget there was the old PC when having got it at 21 or so it was normally your decision as to taking the 38/16 option.
But, there again, I suppose they spent a bit more on training some folks in those days.

[MadAxeMan]

What I was expecting was one of those nice letters from PMA, (you know, the ones they always send you before they actually offer you something that you want), explaining that a certain decision point was looming large and that it was now time to select from the following options:
a. Waive this option and stay until the next option point at 22/44.
b. Take the 16/38 option and leave on ??? date.
However, they now seem to assume that unless you instinctively know the current regulations that they have you by the short and curlies. Unlucky!

[dum_my]

As a graduate on a PC, I had the option of leaving after 12 years. Promotion meant I gave up the 12 year option. PMA then wrote and said I had to give them 12 months notice if I wished to leave at the 38/16 point.

Although it's no comfort to you MadAxeMan, I put the PMA letter in a safe place.
About 3 years later I referenced it when I told PMA 'I'll be off in 12 months'.

[3portdrift]

I received a letter at about two years to go, telling me I had to make the decision by 1 year to go, or forgo my option point. There was a tear off slip at the bottom which I returned to PMA acknowledging receipt. At the time, I was quite happy to stay, so thought little of it. When, by one year to go, things had turned very sour, I was dismayed with the thought that I had rejected my option. Only a chance conversation with PMA confirmed that all I had sent back was a confirmation of receipt slip, and not an option response, which I then submitted with much relief.
Did you receive a letter at the 2 year to go point and acknowledge receipt?

[MadAxeMan]

Nope! The last letter I got was the one accepting 3 yrs return of service for promotion. To which I replied in the affirmative. It does state:
"... You are, therefore, required to state no later than ?? ??? ?? whether or not you wish to exercise your option..."
If it had said something to the effect of "decide to go by ?? ??? ??, or else you're staying sucker" then I would just dry my eyes a fess up. But as ALL of my mates in similar situations (including myself for previous decisions points, OCU etc) had received a Option A, Option B letter, I expected one this time, but it never arrived. Now it would appear that I am buggered, and I don't want anyone else to get bitten in the arse by the PMA Mafia.

[D-IFF_ident]

I was forwarded a note on JPA moving the goalposts for the 16/38 point a few months ago. It told me that I had to give notice that I intended to leave NLT 365 days before my IPP. I've started resettlement; does that mean I've given notice? What happens if you don't turn up to work the day after you're 38th birthday? Come to think of it, what happens if you do turn up to work on the day after your 38th birthday? As a Flt Lt would you be on the Career spine still, or PA?

[brit bus driver]

As with all things, they don't exactly publicise these policy changes. Like when they decided you need a receipt for everything, including items for less than a fiver. Some keen knob amends it,keeps schtum then hangs you out to dry at the subsequent audit! Incidentally, you know when you go for a wee in the States and there's a chap in there with a selection of smellies and a paper towel on hand...does he give receipts for his dollar tip? (Man's gotta pee....)

My email deferring my decision is safe...though I really ought to print it out, just in case the Fujitsu monkey has a bad day!

[MadAxeMan]

I've started resettlement; does that mean I've given notice?
Don't think so. You can do all 35 days worth of resettlement, then decide to stay, and get another 35 days worth next time around. Moreover, rejecting the RFI2 does not count either. (And I have done both of those.)
It would seem that one has to actually send an unsolicited letter (or Gen App I guess) to PMA, BEFORE the 365 days-to-go point. Although watching them prove that you did not send one would make for an interesting day in court. If they send an 'Options' letter (which they can prove that you received) and you choose to not reply, that is one thing, but I'm not sure that their "say nothing and you stay in" policy is legal, especially when they have not told you that that is the case, so I may have fight on my hands.
BTW, a mate of mine has recently been 'chased' by his deskie for a 22/44 option, so it looks like the policy is not being universally administered. :=
Imagine my surprise!:rolleyes:

[MadAxeMan]

Deliverance: Correct. For Flt Lts your 16/38 points is your IPP (immediate pension point) until either: you get promoted, or you accept assimilation (which normally includes transfer to PAS).

The point here is that they (PMA) seem to assume that when they did the frontal lobotomy and gave you the Scraper that you would not contemplate leaving at 38, and just press on in the vein hope of getting the Wg Cdr big bucks. Thus, they no longer bother to ASK if you want to stay or go, they just assume that you're staying.

In the current climate, that is one hell of an assumption.

[D-IFF_ident]

Reference AP3393 Chapter 1 Paras 0110 and 0116.

RAF J letter 15/06.

ALL officers with optional exit points or retirment dates are required to give 12 months notice; PMA will regard ALL options not exercise at the 12 month point as forfeit.

Because of JPA, 14 month reminder letters will not be sent.

This change is effective immediately and retrospectively to 20 Mar 06.

Officers are personally responsible for timing their own options,

And, it would appear, for managing their own careers, their own pay and allowances, keeping copies of all of their own paperwork, and receipts etc etc.

For Flt Lts - your 16/38 point is NOT your retirment date unless you ensure your letter arrives at PMA before your 37th birthday. Mine will be delivered by registered mail in the next few weeks.

:ugh:

[L J R]

D IFF, without sounding really terse, I would have thought that ANYONE in ANY profession should MANAGE his/her OWN career. The idea that PMA manage your plans, whilst 'nice' are somewhat outdated, and yet again a figment of the '50s (ie Last Century).
If anyone does not fully understand his/her terms of reference, entitlement to pay / allowances, keeping copies of all correspondence and notes of conversations etc....... They too are 'stuck in the '50s.
I agree that perhaps you shouldn't really have to, but as many on this forum et al will attest, such practise is a must. The registered mail bit too, is a must!

[Ali Barber]

Nitpicking AP3393, but how can you retrospectively stop sending letters out? Did they ask for them back?

[D-IFF_ident]

L J R

You did sound really terse.

[BEagle]

I thought the 'M' on PMA stood for 'Management'?

PMA can assume all they like about your intentions - 'PMA will regard ALL options not exercised at the 12 month point as forfeit' - if you weren't made clearly aware of such a policy by a letter addressed to you in person (and duly acknowledged) then it is wholly unreasonable for them to make such an assumption.

Whilst serving PVR-porridge at Binnsworth, I discovered that applications to extend (in those days) had to be made on a signed letter, countersigned by the individual's CO. A colleague had been told by a DeskO that such an extension had been approved; however, when the individual concerned had a change of mind and tried to leave, the DeskO announced that the only way was now by financially punitive PVR. So I told my colleague to demand to see the copy of the relevant letter - and that if none existed, then the DeskO had had no reason to make such an assumption.....

In fact no such letter had ever been written.

Is man management in the RAF really in such an utterly $hit state these days?

[zedder]

PMA Mantra:

" We're not happy until you're not happy"

So it would appear so Beags!:E

[Pontius Navigator]

whether or not you wish to exercise your option

This was the change introduced about 25 years ago but more accurately than I could recall. Simply put, it means they would like to know one way or the other as opposed to a positive one way and silent assent the other.

[snapper41]

I was never told by PMA that I could delay my 38/16 decision for a year or so, although I understand that many people do just this. Great, I thought; I'll just delay my 44 option, but apparently this can't be done - it only applies to 38/16; is this true??

[3portdrift]

I understood that the delay was to accommodate late promotions to Sqn Ldr so that the full 3 years could be served in order to secure the increased pension, but still leave you with an option. So if promoted at 36, with an original option at 38, PMA would on a case by case basis, extend your option point to 39/17. It was offered to me because of the combination of a) needing me to take up a Sqn Ldr post at that time but b) not needing me after that, being an ME GD(N)! There would be no reason for PMA to make that offer at 44 unless you were offered Wg Cdr aged about 43 I guess.

[MadAxeMan]

L J R,
Terse yes, but I think that you may have missed the point. How the hell is one expected to manage ones own career when THEY keep changing the rules and regs, then don't tell anyone about those changes. Thus, unless one is a PMA desk officer or one is able to guess what the last, or next, change is, then one is screwed.
I see one of 2 simple solutions:
Get JPA :ugh: to do something useful, and automatically send an email to ones workflow, with the options laid out, like the letters of old.
Give us a written contract, one that we all have a copy of, and have to sign.
It is astonishing in these days of litigation that they get away with not having one, maybe it is because then they could not change the rules without one knowing.

[Rob's Dad]

As I was told by my then deskie when I asked about the final straw that broke this camels back (why I had not been consulted, a la the Nov 03 Officers Career Management Policy, before being posted ) "there is no such thing as Officers' Career Management"! Wish I had that on tape. And yep they got promoted out of that slot.

Everyday something reminds me why it's time to go - and what I've noticed is that those things are normally PMA/JPA inspired.

[MadAxeMan]

After an interview with my boss, and much toing and froing between him and the deskie, I think that I have escaped with my ORD intact. However, I suspect that this is only the case because of the conversations that I had with the previous deskie about my decision to leave a little while ago. :ok:

I still think that this policy is fraught with problems. := Assumption is the mother of all funk ups.

So, advice to all who have a 16/38 (ORD) point (mainly promotees) keep a very keen eye on the calendar, and make sure that the deskie knows that you wish to leave in plenty of time. Moreover, fax it or keep a copy, and send it recorded. Maybe one day JPA will allow this feature, but I would not hold me breath.

[threepointonefour]

Having just left, and needing to enquire about my pension et al, I have spent fruitless hours trying to get information out of the JPAC only to be told ...

You haven't input your memorable information ...

I popped back into work a couple of weeks ago and found that none of them knew what I was talking about. Seems that the JPA message is non-existant!

[c130jbloke]

3.14
Snap, just had exactly the same responce from JPAC ! However, with new found civvie determination finally got them to 'fess up the info I wanted (with 5-10 days wait naturally).
Did you also know that JPAC are only meant to handle 1 question per call. If you have a follow up or pay related request its back to the end of the line for you....
C130JB
:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[Re-Heat]

Goodness me, and I thought I couldn't stand human resources in my firm.

For once, it sounds as though you lot are crying out for (slightly) incompetent HR who at least tell us the ground rules...

[ZH875]

The memorable info is there in JPA.

It is used to identify yourself if calling the JPAC, for password resets, or if they want to know who you are.

We were told to input our memorable info when we got the bit of paper with our user name and initial password on from station HR people, around a year or so ago.

[Roland Pulfrew]

And the good news is PMA has ceased to be. It, like TGDA, is an ex-agency.

Apparently all manning is now done by a bloke called ACOS Manning:ugh: Is this another "joint" title/ Do the army already have an ACOS Manning and therefore we have to have one too?

[threepointonefour]

ZH875: The memorable info is there in JPA.
It is used to identify yourself if calling the JPAC, for password resets, or if they want to know who you are.
We were told to input our memorable info when we got the bit of paper with our user name and initial password on from station HR people, around a year or so ago.

Normally, I would assume this was a typical oversight on my part, but the fact that EVERYONE ELSE in my former office, and many others don't know about this, proves otherwise. I'm also a bit of a geek and DID fill in as much of the JPA stuff as I could when we got accounts - and I still don't recall any memorable info.

Perhaps your unit passed on the wise words ...

My post was not really to complain, only to warn others to have their memorable info on the system before they leave and can deal only with the JPAC.

[Stuff]

The memorable info has a load of pitfalls when you get around to entering it.

When I tried to do it the only question it wanted an answer to was "Place of Birth" and the answer had to have at least 8 letters and no space. Great, if like me, you were born in Glasgow (7 letters). The other gotcha is that it will happily take a 7 letter answer without complaining at you but if you subsequently call JPAC you'll find that the memorable info doesn't appear on their screen because it isn't valid.

[c130jbloke]

So if your memorable data is held on JPA(rse), how do you access it if you both live absolutely nowhere near any service establishment and are out ? Or have I missed that you could access it from the WWW ?

C130JB

:hmm:

[Brain Potter]

Just to get this straight, please correct any errors:

If you are promoted from Flt Lt to Sqn Ldr before age 35, then your 38 point becomes an option - so you have to give 12 months notice to exercise it? Promotees after 35 would have this option reset to give 3 years return as a Sqn Ldr.

If you are still a Flt Lt then you leave the service at your 38 point, as you would have to sign-on for further service. Offers of assimilation/PAS have to be accepted with 12 months to run to the 38 point. If you are offered further service (ie assimilation) surely it cannot be enforced without positive acceptance?

[MadAxeMan]

BP,

Absolutely spot on.

All,

Not only are there significant problems with access to JPA from the outside world, Internet access is unlikely due to the arcane ITSy (JSP440) rules.:ugh:

But even from here in MPN, where I have been trying to get on for 2 weeks or more, it is a real issue.

Great idea, hopeless implementation: now that sounds familiar.:zzz:

[ORAC]

I understood that the delay was to accommodate late promotions to Sqn Ldr so that the full 3 years could be served in order to secure the increased pension, but still leave you with an option. So if promoted at 36, with an original option at 38, PMA would on a case by case basis, extend your option point to 39/17. It was offered to me because of the combination of a) needing me to take up a Sqn Ldr post at that time but b) not needing me after that, being an ME GD(N)! There would be no reason for PMA to make that offer at 44 unless you were offered Wg Cdr aged about 43 I guess.

Err, I delayed my option by a year - as a Flt Lt.

I had a chat with my Desk Officer about the sort of jobs I was after if I was to stay in. None were currently available, so she agreed to delay mt option a year. I rang a year later to ask about the jobs - and the new Desk Officer didn't know what I was talking about... So I put in my option - and left on my 45 birthday...

[StopStart]

No Potter, if offered PA you have to stay. Forever. That's what I was told.....

:ok:

[Almost_done]

Not only are there significant problems with access to JPA from the outside world, Internet access is unlikely due to the arcane ITSy (JSP440) rules.
It's not just the JSP that's arcane there are other issues too that I will not go into again on here about JPA, that are still unresolved. :ugh:

[Brain Potter]

In the words of "Should or Stay or Should I Go?" by popular beat combo "The Clash", Mr J Strummer clearly states his dilemma:

"If I go, there will be trouble"

But he then continues to offer the projected results of the alternative COA available.

"And if I stay, it will be double"

If the selection of the correct COA is based on a the mathematically analysed on the basis of trouble caused by staying divided by trouble caused by going, the clear outcome is a 2 to 1 ratio in favour of staying.

However, Mr J Strummer was clearly not dealing with an assimilation offer by RAF PMA, where empircial evidence shows that the results of the dilemma are clearly skewed in favour of selecting the "going" option.

[StopStart]

Mr J Strummer also said

I hate the army an' I hate the RAF
I don't wanna go fighting in the tropical heat

Career Opportunities, Clash, 1977


A true genius indeed........ :ok:

[MadAxeMan]

StopStart,
... if offered PA you have to stay. Forever. That's what I was told.....

That does not sound quite right to me. Surely you have to accept Assimilation / PAS, not just have an offer to by tied in for life.

Then again, with the underhanded way that PMA are operating these days, who can tell?

[FFP]

Max,

Think StopStart and Potter may know each other, hence the banter ;)

[threepointonefour]

Surely this is simple,

Sqn Ldr & above: must complete return of service AND notify (by whatever devious means) of your intention to take your NEW option, as extended service to 55 is guaranteed.

Flt Lt: Has no guaranteed service beyond 16/38 pt unless accepts PA. PA has to be accepted by a certain date (1 yr to go). Legally, the offer of PA MUST be accepted before further service is given - a nil return equals no PA. Unless they say differently on the offer letter (but I suspect this wouldn't hold up at a tribunal!?).

[StopStart]

Thrilled to see that FFP has been blessed with advanced reasoning skills and is secure in the knowledge that not everything you read on tinternet is true! :ok:

Except about Joe Strummer.....

[calpat]

On a different note I've heard that you can PVR and go quickly, up to a year early on your 38/16 date, if you've done 17 years + and you have a job offer. Anybody any idea if this is true and where I can find the details (I have tried myself with no joy, honest!). Most pertinent to me would be whether you still have to give 12 months notice and therefore lose half your flying pay for a whole year.

Cheers

[MadAxeMan]

Just had the 'future of PMA' (sorry I mean ACOS (Manning), catchy name! :} ) chat, from Gp Capt Opie today. On the whole, I was pretty impressed with most of the changes, almost enough the change my mind and stay :eek: …. naaa, not likely .

Apparently, under the new ACOS (Manning) practices, one has to:
Opt Out of Promotion, yet
Opt In to Extension of Service. No chance of confusion there then!

So somewhat different to what my deskie said. But the good news is, that one will have to positively extend ones service past a 16/38 point, therefore we should not have anyone else caught by the ‘assume your staying’ policy. Moreover, the team also suggested that almost any option will be explored to keep people in at the moment, as we overshoot the target manning, and have UK gapping rates of around 17-20%.

They also mentioned that a number of trades have been identified as smashing harmony-guidelines: Fire-fighters, Movers, Gunners, MT Techs to name a few. Also, from the aircrew fraternity: SH, C130 and Harrier. But there was little indication of what their airships may do to rectify the situation, but at least this is the first step. :ok:

(>|<)

[The Swinging Monkey]

MadAxeMan

Having read your plight, there is but one very simple solution.......
You, by yourself, pick a date that you want to leave the service and put it in writing to the following people:
a Your Sqn Cdr
b The Staish
c PMA
d AOC

Explain to them that you are fed up with being screwed around by a bunch of incompetant fools, that you feel you have been 'cheated' by these new 'options' and that you WILL leave the service on that day.
Stand back and watch what happens. Probably very little, because at the end of the day, they know that what they are doing / have done. will not stand up in a court or law. Let it ne known that you have no qualms about going to the press or indeed redressing those at the very top. Endex.

I am sympathetic to your cause, believe me, but I would point out that this kind of thing has been to the 'lower ranks' for absolutely years and years, and it is ironic that it is now making headlines! I am in no way anti Officer, but it is amazing to find that even the officer cadre are now being shafted by their own!

As for your own problem Sir - just do it. There will be no adverse consequences believe me, and no one will even bat an eye lid when you're gone!

TSM

[MadAxeMan]

TSM,

Thank you for your insightful advice, however, I am not yet near enough to my tether to take such irrevokable steps. I have, of course sought advice from my command chain and the scribblies, both of whom are on side. And of course a redress of complaint (and even legal action) is not out of the question.

Moreover, it saddens me that you say that the NCAs have been treated like this for some time now, yet it intrigues me that I was not aware of it before, despite having been a Flt Cdr for AEng and ALMs. I am aware of a couple of individuals who have fallen between the cracks (and got shafted) due to several changes in T&Cs, but not the norm.

:sad: The really sad part is that despite nearly 20 years of dedicated service, ACOS(M) are now so short of people that they would rather have a totally pi$$ed off bum-on-seat (exactly how productive do they think I am going to be?) than accept that their (unnotified) change of policy was fundamentally flawed, and allow me to go, time-served.

More to follow...

(>|<)