Unbelievable BA story

[B A Lert]

First class flight's dead disturbing


March 19, 2007 - 5:18PM

A passenger in first class woke up to a shock when he found himself sitting near a corpse on a British Airways flight, British newspapers reported today.

Paul Trinder, 54, said cabin crew moved the body of the elderly woman from the economy section where she had died after take-off, the Mirror and Sun tabloids said.


"The corpse was strapped into the seat but because of turbulence it kept slipping down on to the floor,'' Trinder, a businessman, was quoted as saying.

"It was horrific. The body had to be wedged in place with lots of pillows.''

The woman's daughter was also upgraded and spent the rest of the nine-hour flight from Delhi to London grieving next to her dead mother, the Sun reported.

The Guardian newspaper said the incident happened last week.

British Airways has apologised for any distress suffered, according to the reports.

The Mirror quoted BA as saying: "We apologise, but our crew were working in difficult circumstances and chose the option they thought would cause least disruption.''

This story is from the Sydney Morning Herald but I see that they have quoted a couple of the racier English tabloids to support their story.

All I can say is how distressing this tragic event must have been to everyone involved. For BA, was it a case of 'be damned' whatever action was taken after the death?

[tezzer]

Racier tabloids ?? It was in the Sunday Times old boy !

[Avman]

Too many people dying in aeroplanes (airplanes for the Yanks) these days! I probably will too (well I hope so). They should have a trap door to dump bodies into the cargo hold :} (not forgetting to warn the ground baggage crew of what to expect). Seriously though, with all compassion and respect, if I'd forked out for a 1st Class ticket, I wouldn't be too pleased having to share my Champagne with a stiff! Advance apologies to the PC brigade if I have upset any of you with the above tongue-in-cheek comments.

[Wycombe]

Crew rest? Flight deck bunk? I don't know what a/c type it was, but if L-H surely one of these options would have been better.

Surely better that than folks who paid £3k for a ticket to have to endure that (or any fare-paying pax to be honest)

Some airlines I understand have a "cupboard" to cater for such eventualities?

[Captain Numpty]

A sad event for ALL concerned.

However, like the way the Sun relay the following;

" The woman's daughter was also upgraded"

It's the "also" bit that I find interesting.......What a SH1T tabloid they really are!!

[speedbirdhouse]

Sadly happens at Qantas on average, once a month.

Very difficult for all concerned.

I remenber reading that some of SQ's ultra longrange aircraft have a dedicated chilled stowage for such situations......

Third paragraph under, "time saving".

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/bizfocus/archives/2005/07/24/2003264881

[Farrell]

It all boils down to latent fear of dead bodies and over dependancy of money over compassion.

Having spoken to crew about the subject one night, I learned that it is almost standard procedure to move the deceased to the front.

They have painted the picture of the daughter grieving next to her mother as an inconvenience and annoyance rather than a situation requiring compassion, love and tolerance.

Did any of the First Class passengers go over and sit with her and reassure her or try and make her feel better.
The guy who was 'horrified'....did he offer a word of kindness, or was he too busy writing his email to the Mirror on his Blackberry?

[Hartington]

But it turns out this is the second (or are there more?) such story:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=420484&in_page_id=1770

[Magplug]

I read the full article in the Sunday Times detailing Mr. Trinder's complaints about the situation.

It left me with the distinct impression that was the sort of person who if someone were to drop dead in the street next to him, that he would ignore them and look the other way. He clearly is happy to pay to be insulated from the harsher realities of life and kicks-off if that bubble is burst.

Don't you know how much I paid for this ticket?..... While you're making money pal - I'm afraid life goes on.

[Taildragger67]

Small problem about transporting the deceased around the cabin so that all 3-400 hundred punters get a look.

More discreet to keep the 'problem' localised and the deceased in their seat.

Could also be an issue police-wise - I'd have thought that the boys in blue (if called to the aircraft on arrival) might want to see things as they were.

[priapism]

They should have put her in a CC uniform and strapped her to a crew seat - no one would have noticed she was dead.

[OldChinaHand]

Its not the first time some poor soul has expired on board an Aircraft. God rest her. But cases like this show a lack of proper preparation and planning by Airlines/manufacturers. I find it strange that the are no facilities on board, such as Body Bag, suitable storage area away from Pax. For health/infectious disease reasons as well as the more "personal" reasons. I believe cruise ships have facilities for deceased pax.

Time to give it some consideration, at least for long haul.

[Taildragger67]

cruise ships have facilities for deceased pax = freezer/catering cold store. (At least, that's where we put them when I was at sea!) :eek:

[Silver Tongued Cavalier]

I know a Cabin crew friend working on a JAL 747, who had a very sick passenger on board, they were trying to move him up to the flight crew rest area for a proper bed and rest area, when he died of a heart attack on the stairs.

Anyone who flies for a living knows when things go wrong, the training , and the book , doesn't always cover all situations. I'm sure everyone was trying to do their best, but sometimes it just doesn't work out as planned. That's aviation unfortunately.

[Lou Scannon]

In the charter world, there was a story once circulating of where the cabin crew managed to put the body on the flight deck in the jump seat during a night flight.

One of the cabin crew, who had not been told of this brought up the coffees and asked the captain whether "his friend would like one as well".

On another flight in a company where we had experienced a bad run of pax dying on flights one of the cabin crew didn't like the look of one male pax sitting there still in his coat gloves and hat. She discreetly tried to check his pulse and found the the wrist was already stiff and cold to the touch. Having alerted the rest of the crew they were advancing on the seat ready to move him elsewhere when he suddenly stood up and removed his coat.

The wrist that the girl had checked turned out to be an artificial arm.

[Mixed Up]

Mr Trindler was clearly traumatized by the experience but was offered BA. Not as much as a stiff drink. According to the Sunday Times he was told he should "... just get over it". She was moved to first class because it was dead quiet there, but not so once her daughter and son-in-law had been "upgraded". Apparently they spent the next 5 horus wailing. I mean, it's not what you pay three grand for, is it? He'd have been better off with the sardines.

As for the poster who questions the actions of Mr Trindler, what more was expected from him. He could hardly have gone up to the deceased old lady and asked her if she was OK!

No, I think the airlines have the repsonsibility to make better provisions on their long-haul flights. That people snuff it is a fact of of life, and if they are going to stuff 400 of them in an aluminium smarty tube for half a day or more, they'd do better than ofering their first-class cabin as a morgue. It would make me think twice about travelling first-class, not that I've ever thought once about it so far. No, it's the interesting peoples' cabin for me.

[Avman]

Farrell, yours are words of a person who most probably never flies long haul in FIRST or BUSINESS, or certainly never pays out of his/her own pocket to do so. I travel in the front at my own hard-earned expense as a treat to myself, and the brutal reality of life is that for that kind of money I don't want to fly in the company of a deceased person next to - or in close proximity to me.

[CCLN]

"....... I find it strange that the are no facilities on board, such as Body Bag, suitable storage area away from Pax......."




I wouldn't have thought a bodybag would have been suitable until the lady was pronounced dead officially. I've been told only a doctor can do this because a death certificate has to be produced. So for arguements sake let's say she was still just barely alive, a bodybag would seal her fate.

[Shoo shoo]

to those who keep reffering to punters paying £3k for a 1st class ticket, suggest you check BA prices, £8k is nearer the mark.

[HKPAX]

What, I would ask, are the airline staff expected to DO??? This is surely a situation where there is a high risk of criticism whatever particular decision they make, and if, in a packed cabin, their decision is to move the deceased to a place where there can be maximized seclusion for the corpse (with appropriate dignity) then what can possibly be wrong with that? BA can - maybe should - apologise for the distress caused, but there should not be any implied criticism of the decision itself. Other passengers should want the same for themselves or their dearest as for the unfortunate deceased.....
Never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

[Carnage Matey!]

Mr Trindler was clearly traumatized by the experience but was offered BA. Not as much as a stiff drink.

If he was in First he could have a stiff drink, or any other kind of drink, any time he wanted. Just had to press his call bell. I suspect the only thing that would appease Mr Trindler would be a big fat compo cheque.

No, I think the airlines have the repsonsibility to make better provisions on their long-haul flights

Never had anyone snuff it on one of my flights and the only person I know who has experienced that situation had it happen so late nothing could be done anyway. Perhaps we should also start loading parachutes as plane crashes are a fact of life, or maybe we could have seige-negotiators on board as hijackings are a fact of life too.

they'd do better than ofering their first-class cabin as a morgue

Where would you like them then? In the galley? Thats not very hygienic when you're meal is coming from there. In the lav? I can already see the Daily Mail "Heartless BA stuffed my dead gran in the bog" headlines. In an economy seat? Are you going to volunteer to drag the stiff across three rows of seats to strap it in?

It would make me think twice about travelling first-class, not that I've ever thought once about it so far.

..quite evidently.

[gravity victim]

I wonder if the daughter had to leave her mother's duty-free allowance behind?:confused:

[Dried ears]

I wouldn't have thought a bodybag would have been suitable until the lady was pronounced dead officially. I've been told only a doctor can do this because a death certificate has to be produced. So for arguements sake let's say she was still just barely alive, a bodybag would seal her fate.

Good point. As they are not yet officially dead shouldn't it be mandatory to divert to nearest for medical assistance?

[Palyvestre]

This is not the first time for BA to act this way..

Sorry it's in french but the date is December 2006, the 6th

http://www.crash-aerien.com/forum/british-airways-surclasse-ses-passagers-morts-vt2724.html

[4Foxtrot]

Would it have made any difference if someone in First had died rather than someone in World Traveller? Would using the economy cabin as a morgue for 1st class passengers be acceptable? The story would have played out the same.

The same arguement applies to building nuclear power stations, landfill sites or motorways - Not In My Back Yard (NIMBY). When the decision is not entirely about money, the path taken is often the one that causes the least amount of pain for all of those involved.

IMHO the BA staff, faced with a difficult decision, acted with as much discretion as possible by placing the deceased in a quieter cabin. What they probably didn't count on was the grieving relative.

People that die in the air should be treated with respect, as they are on the ground. While there are practical considerations (dead bodies leak), I wouldn't be thrilled about having a deceased travelling relative of mine stuffed into a 'corpse cupboard' to protect the sensitivities of the other passengers.

It seems you're damned whatever you do, but perhaps a statement from BA on their deceased passenger policy would be helpful.

[Final 3 Greens]

Well said Avman.

I don't think that ANY PAX should have to sit next to a corpse on a long haul aircraft.

To do it to your premium paying pax is mad.

I do however agree with upgrading the daughter, if for no other reason that the crew could look after her better in a premium cabin, with its higher ratio of crew to pax.

Had I been in F that day, I would have felt great sympathy for the daughter, but less for an airline that hadn't got a plan to store the cadaver properly - it must be a risk that could be better catered for.

Carnage Matey says "suspect the only thing that would appease Mr Trindler would be a big fat compo cheque."

I suspect that CM is correct and also believe that Mr Trindler deserves some big fat compensation after experiencing this.

[cheesycol]

AVMAN said: the brutal reality of life is that for that kind of money I don't want to fly in the company of a deceased person next to - or in close proximity to me

Because for that kind of money you want to be isolated from the brutal reality of life??? Do you think people in economy are required to put up with a corpse than those in business and and those in business more than those in first?? Are you completely bonkers :ugh: :ugh:

The crew are faced with a difficult situation, they did the best they could -in my book the first class cabin would be the best place on the a/c to place the corpse as it is by it's nature a quieter cabin. I don't have the BA FCO book to hand and my airline simply says that a report must be submitted to the CAA.

If I was the person inconvenienced by the greiveing relatives, I would have offered my seat to them and taken another on the aircraft - they have just witnessed the death of a relation.

I heard on the news this morning that BA has changed its mind and actually apologised to the customer concerned - why? Did the crew do something wrong? I don't believe they did.

Has society gone mad? :confused:

BTW, the design of the BA 1st cabin, means that nobody will actually be sat next to the corpse. and is the only cabin where this is the case.

[renrut]

I wonder if the daughter had to leave her mother's duty-free allowance behind?


It happened tp me many years ago on a charter flight back from TFS. The flight was full and fortunatelt the gentleman was seated at a window seat with his wife next to him. The CC strapped him in and placed a blanket over him. The only question the wife asked was a worry that Customs would not let her take his duty free in.

[manintheback]

Yes some may perceive it lacks dignity, but its a plane so why not use one of the loos? And have a clear and public policy on it.

[cheesycol]

If your mother just died on an aircraft - would you want her propped up in a toilet? :rolleyes:

[PAXboy]

This story was hammered in this forum when it actually happened, as opposed to the low news Sunday that had the story fill up spare space in the paper.

As a matter of fact: In the UK, only a doctor can pronounce death.

[Farrell]

I travel first and business but I seldomn pay for it.

That would just be foolish. :E

[llondel]

Not quite sure why this ended up in the SLF section, because the unfortunates being discussed aren't capable of self-loading any more. :}

[davethelimey]

If the passenger died "shortly after takeoff", wouldn't the obvious solution be to turn back? I can't believe that storing a body anywhere unrefrigerated on a plane, much less in a passenger cabin, is preferable to losing some fuel, landing, offloading and going again.

And BA would have had none of the bad publicity that they've had since the story broke.

[palmtree]

:=
AVMAN - your comments are so awful who would want to sit next to or in the vicinity of you when you are alive! It dosnt matter how rich you are. Someone died. How would you feel if you were in Y and your mother died on the flight? Wasnt it kind that the crew allowed the lady to sit next to her dead mother.

Like you I fly in F and I am so pleased BA have the little private areas because so many of the people in F are people I have no desire to be near or associate with basically because of their attitude. It seems that often as you move from Y to C to F the attitude of people worsens. Not all are like this of couse but many are as I am sure CC will confirm.

Which is better to have money or be a kind person? I think we sometimes forget we came in with nothing and we go out with nothing.

Why dont you post your real name so that the worlds airlines can ban you.

:D

[Taildragger]

Don't know where this woman was seated, but I would have thought a bit of judicious upgrading to F/C of the people around. Or Y-J-F. Summat like that. Definitely it would be upsetting for ANYBODY to be seated next to a corpse without any means of escape to another area.
Many years ago, when I worked for BEA (Remember them.?? Tridents.?? Ahhhhh de Haviland.!) I heard one of those stories which was probably true about the bored Dispatcher who had a coffin to be sent as cargo, and filled in one of those complaint forms using the Air Waybill details, name address etc., complained of being cold, stiff and cramped, and not even offerred so much as a cup of coffee. I have no idea how it turned out, but would love to have been a fly on the wall when it came to light in the complaints department at Teatime House.

[Final 3 Greens]

Palmtree
Like you I fly in F and I am so pleased BA have the little private areas because so many of the people in F are people I have no desire to be near or associate with basically because of their attitude.??????????????????

I would agree that this CAN be a description of some found in J, but normally F pax are polite and quiet in my experience.

Then again I've only flown 7-8 F sectors in the last 6 months, so I only see a snapshot of the big picture. I've flown business over 50 times in the same period, so can comment with a little more authority in that conext.

I also think that putting corpses in F is completely wrong - or J or W or Y for that matter.

Corpses are not pleasant things to be around and exposing the poor daughter to her mothers body for a number of hours also seems to me to be cruel - this would not happen in a hospital - one says one's goodbyes and then departs, to try to cope with the grief - I know this from personal experience.

How must the daughter have felt sitting in a metal tube, with her mother's body there, surrounded by people she did not know.

As I said earlier, the daughter should have been upgraded so that she could be looked after as best possible, but the deceased should have been looked after better- just my opinion.

A 747 is a very large aeroplane, there must be a way of providing proper storage in the case of a passenger dying.

[G-CPTN]

From comments that BA experience about ten deaths per year and QANTAS about one a month, such occurrences are obviously statistically significant, and, as such, should be 'catered for'.
So come on, Mr Airline Manager Guy - what ya gonna about it? It seems that a significant number of pax are unhappy about being sat next to a dead person (though I believe I would be compassionate to accept such inconvenience - however without the farce of the deceased slipping down onto the floor . . . )

[Andy_S]

such occurrences are obviously statistically significant, and, as such, should be 'catered for'.

Indeed, and this is what puzzles me. Surely BA must have a procedure or policy for death of a passenger on board - where to remove the body to, how to deal with grieving relatives etc. If so, was it followed on this particular occasion? And if not, why not?

Other than that, I'm not convinced there's really a story here.

[Rainboe]

So there's calls to 'turn back and land', and have strict protocols for storage of bodies? Get this understood- once you turn back and let the Police make a meal of it, that crew are probably not going to complete the flight, getting standbys out takes hours, and the flight is probably not going anywhere. There are no protocols- it is up to the crew to handle it pragmatically. Sometimes you can put bodies in the lavatories, though with relatives on board it's not a viable option. There is no alternative to leaving them in a seat, suitably covered. If you were to ask the passengers 'we've had one stiff on us, shall we go back and land or continue to your destination?', there would be a unanimous show of hands for 'well they're dead already, we might as well carry on.'

People die. They are inconsiderate enough to do it on aeroplanes sometimes. All airlines suffer this, not just BA. They all do the same. Get over it, it happens. It's not all BA's fault. There was nothing else the crew could do.

[Carnage Matey!]

And for those who want to put the corpse in the lavs, will the doors fold inwards and there's nothing to tie the stiff to except the folded up baby changing table. One bit of turbulence and the body slides to the floor then you are left with the unedifying spectacle of trying to smash in the jammed lav door to get to the corpse on the ground.

[Andy_S]

So there's calls to 'turn back and land', and have strict protocols for storage of bodies?

Mmmm - not exactly what I meant. Obviously if someone has turned their toes up shortly after take off, there's little to be gained by turning back.

What I meant was - since this has clearly happened on other flights, and will continue to happen - surely a policy must have been developed for dealing with the situation in the cabin. Not a "strict protocol", but at least general guidelines. Do you leave the body where it is, for example, or is there somewhere it can be stored? Do you leave it uncovered or not? Do you allow the relatives / travelling companions to accompany the body, or do you seperate them? I can fully understand that the cabin crew are given flexibility in how to deal with a distressing and difficult situation, but I can't believe there are no guidelines to assist them.

[WeLieInTheShadows]

This is always a question that comes up when we train new crew at BA.

What do you do with the body?

The toilet is always everybodys first instinct. But think about it. As has been said here already...it's your mother/sister/brother/aunt/wife/husbund/friend that's died. it's happened and your sat next to your loved ones dead body.

A crew member says "We're just moving them to the toillet".

Personally if it was my loved one I'd be outraged and want to be with them, and not with them in the toilet either! Someone also mentioned putting the body in a wardrobe, even worse!

It's a rare occurance, no doubt about it. Maybe yes a refund for the FIRST guests might be in order for having their flight disturbed in such a way. It's distressing for all concerned, but chiefly for the deceased's loved ones travelling with them. They are IMHO the people that in this situation need looking after.

Also in my experience FIRST guests are by far the nicest people on the aircraft and are an absolute pleasure to meet and get to know. They're at the top and have nothing to prove.

[Taildragger67]

Let's say your average 70kg punter karks it in 35A.

You have a choice: put a blanket over them, eyeshades on and window shade down and strap them in tight; if any seats available elsewhere, move 35B and 35C.

Or, try to extricate the body (remember you're restricted to 32" pitch!) and move it to somewhere else. Do you:
a) get an F/A on each end to carry it (bearing in mind that each is carrying above the 32kg per-bag limit imposed upon baggabe handlers - not sure if F/As have a lifting limit? - but exposing them to weight-carrying dangers);
b) drag them down the cabin on their heels;
c) drag them down the aisle by their heels, arms dragging along;
d) if it's only a little old (light) granny, get one of the burlier F/As to hoik her up over their shoulder and march her down the aisle to the crew rest?

Oh, and do it all with dignity and without disturbing anyone else.

No, you keep it quiet. In F, you're disturbing at most 16 pax; ok, high value, but sling them 50,000 BA miles each or a companion ticket and they're happy. They're probably already loyal, have flown many times so know and trust the usual product and understand this is an unusual event. Not to say that you can p!55 them off, but you can exploit the loyalty in that you forelock-tug enough and they'll be sweet.

[Jimmy Macintosh]

In all honesty it would be uncomfortable knowing that there was a cadaver on board, but to sit next to one! Was he really next to it? If they upgraded a son and daughter it sounds like they provided three seats, it's not difficult, especially in a first class cabin, to put as much space between the deceased and fare paying passengers.
As to saying the first class cabin is the quietest seems odd, it's not like anything is going to disturb her, but with limited choices at the time (yes, there probably should be a small area that can be used for this type of storage, but for this flight there wasn't) they did the best they could.

[obgraham]

For the life of me, I can't understand "you people". It's a freaking body, man, not a chunk of Plutonium. Nothing will seep out and get you. And shortly before it was a living breathing human being.
Strap her into an empty seat. Cover her with a blanket. And carry on. Well done, BA. Last I checked, the death rate was still 100%. Those who have a problem will just have to get over it. Without compensation!

[Final 3 Greens]

obgraham

Please will you state your medical qualifications to support the assertions in your post?

[DaveO'Leary]

Having a medical background, and my respect to the family of the deceased passenger. I have read above posts as to the hygene aspects of a corpse.

Up to 12 hours (approx) from time of death there would be no problem of cross contamination of the corpse. After this time scale, bodily fluids may start to leak via anus/vagina due to the break down of enzymes in the gut.

That's why the undertakers stuff ones orifices with cotton wool. Hope your not eating dinner as you read.

Dave

[Taildragger]

Geez O'Leary. Way too much information. I realise that you medics face it all day long, but I AM eating my dinner in 10 minutes.!
Years ago, when Pontius was a Pilate, I travelled on a Vanguard down to Lourdes on a Cheshire Homes charter. The outbound flight had taken them down, and we were picking these people up. The Lourdes trip was their final desperate trip to get cured or to get a bit better, or simply to get at peace with themselves. The Last Hurrah.
The mix of pax included Sick Pax/Nurses/Doctors/Helpers and so on. The inevitable happened and one pour soul died on board. When the Ch/Stwd came up and informed us, the Captain asked me to check what to do in the manual. When I read the procedure, he almost begged the Doc to certify the Pax dead AFTER engines off....it was much easier you see.!!

[groundbum]

I'm sure the only reason this has surfaced again is that Mr Trinder has received a blow off letter about his request for compensation, and so has called the newspaper. I was just on another newsite, and up popped a google ad that said "got a story? Call the Sun on xxx and save agents fees" just like that!

BA probably should have stuffed him a few thousand or a free ticket or two, and this would never have surfaced in the press. Having a dead person next to you for so many hours isn't so bad, it happens. Having 2 people seriously keening for a few hours would seriously get on my nerves. Especially having paid a lot for the ticket.

Why didn't Mr Trinder just move to the now spare economy seats?

G

[PAXboy]

The standard procedure is to place a plastic sheet under the body - a large bin liner will do - and that will prevent the upholstery or carpet getting any of materials that may be released. If you don't want more detail, then look away now. Whilst the body will start to breakdown after an interval, as DO'L states, once we are dead, our muscles cease to function and the various natural apertures of our body that are kept closed by muscles as a default, will open and seepage can occur. Not always and not always right away but a bin liner will do the trick.

Once again - this was a non story from last year until a newspaper decided to run it again and make some money out of it.

[bjcc]

This is a real non story. When I worked at LHR, we had around 2 bodies arrive in the cabin of aircraft a week. I don't recall anyone making a fuss, or stamping feet because of the location of the body.

It has to go somewhere, and I have seen them in just about every place. From Economy, to first class, from the upstairs galley on a 747 classic, which was interesting when the undertakers had to take the body down the spiral staircase. I've seen them in the loo, and laid across 4 seats in the middle.

On the subject of Doctors, any doctor can pronounce life extinct, ie death, but only in certain circumstances can a doctor certify death, which is different. Until a doctor prounouces death, a body is still alive, although comon sence does play a part.

[BOFH]

Lou

In the charter world, there was a story once circulating of where the cabin crew managed to put the body on the flight deck in the jump seat during a night flight.

Can't do that now though. Security, you see.

It is an interesting moral conundrum, and as Farrell pointed out, is an opportunity to show some compassion. On the other hand, AvMan has asked why a passenger paying a premium for his ticket gets to ride under exceedingly unfortunate circumstances.

The great pity is that this woman's death is now the subject of a newspaper article, which can only be discomfiting to her family. I wish that BA had quietly dealt with this after the fact and avoided making this a PR football.

BOFH

[ground_star]

Taken from http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/19/ba_upgrade/

A first class British Airways passenger got short shrift from cabin crew after expressing his displeasure at waking up to find them maneovering a corpse into the seat next to him, the Daily Mirror reports.

The elderly woman had apparently died shortly after take-off, and was quickly upgraded from economy to first class

Building firm boss Paul Trinder, who'd stumped £3,000+ for the Boeing 747 flight from Delhi to London, recounted: "I woke up to see the crew manoeuvering what looked like a sack of potatoes into the seat. But slowly through the darkness I realised it was a body. The corpse was strapped into the seat but because of turbulence it kept slipping down on to the floor. It was horrific. The body had to be wedged in place with lots of pillows.

"Then the relatives were allowed to sit in First Class and spent the next five hours wailing and weeping. When I complained, I was told to 'get over it'. I was also told BA's corpse policy would remain 'unless I've got any better ideas'. In future, if I have a choice of airlines on a particular route I'll choose anyone but BA."

BA told the Daily Mirror: "We apologise, but our crew were working in difficult circumstances and chose the option they thought would cause least disruption."


Well, it's one way to get upgraded & I know the pax are desperate but...

...anyway, seriously - any prooners with a similar tale?

I know this sounds a bit horrible - but couldn't BA use the crew bunks on a 747 provided no crew were on rest? Tight fit but slightly more private for the deceased + their entourage don't you think?

[flybywire]

I think the crew did a good job given the circumstances, and given the fact that our FCO do not give us any precise guidance regarding this, apart from what PAX has correctly said.

I know we need to keep the "dignity" of the deceased as well as respect the relatives' feelings and wishes, however I still do not know why they didn't think of putting the unfortunate lady to rest in the crew rest?! every bed has a seatbelt, could have been scured with extra pillows and possibly covered with as many blankets as needed.
I would see this as a much better solution, especially on a 747, even if that meant for the crew to have their rest on their jumpseats for a flight, IF they could rest anyway. I know that when I had a complicated incident on board I couldn't sleep or rest for over 2 days!!!

[Nepotisim]

Lift to the hold? You have been watching too many movies!:8

[Porche]

Ok look it is my first post and already made a mess of it.

Go on then - why not.

Porche

[PAXboy]

The thread is running in SLF forum and please realise that this is old news. ground_star, it's best to search for the thread before posting. The only reason it has cropped up again now, is that a Sunday newspaper decided it had no news and ran it again.

The crew bunks? How do you suggest they get it up there? How do the crew rest so that they can fly the aircraft? Sheesh. :hmm: One pax cannot accept that people die at inconvenient times. He is reported (and we know how reliable the papers are) to say that next time he will not fly with BA. So he knows which flight is not going to have a fatality?

Porche if you are asking about 'the lift to the hold', the reason is that there isn't one.

[Porche]

Thanks Paxboy. I have just had a look and spotted it.

Porche

[Rainboe]

The stairs up are a very, very tight spiral staircase. How do you manouevre a stiff up there? Then get it down again? Whose back gets knackered doing that? Why do people always feel they know better than a whole crew on the scene, handling the problem the best way they know how, and the way all other airlines do it?

[Porche]

Can someone confirm/refute that it is now sop to carry a body bag on board - use it or no. I know it is a delicate question and it has been brought up before but there wasn't really an answer.

Porche

[Porche]

I can't speak for the other posters Rainboe but I certainly don't think I know better than people on the scene.

Porche

[Avman]

Palmtree and others (who didn't appreciate my post), you are yet more examples of pax who don't pay for your C of F tickets! I am an elderly person who may well pop his clogs while flying one of these days. I AM NOT RICH. For health reasons I can only contemplate flying long haul in C or F. I do so at my own expense (not the company's - as most pax do). I don't believe my attitude is selfish. The dead person will certainly not enjoy the privilege of flying in F - and I certainly won't find their company lively. By all means upgrade any accompanying family members. I have no dispute with that. So give me a break all you politically correct do gooders, cos the HARD EARNED money I spend on my C or F ticket actually subsidises your cheapo ticket!!! Ban me from flying, ha! You make me laugh. The airlines need the revenue from my C or F ticket more than they need your few coppers. :E

[obgraham]

Please will you state your medical qualifications to support the assertions in your post?
Well Greens I wasn't aware I'd made a lot of assertions, except regarding seeping. But anyway:
MD, University of Wisconsin
Fellow of Royal College of Surgeons of Canada
Fellow of College of Physicians & Surgeons of Quebec
Diplomate of American Board of Obstetrics & Gynecology

Is that enough? I still don't know jack-sh*t!

[James T. Kirk]

Presumably the poor old lady was assigned a seat before she passed on. Why wasn’t she left there?

I heard a similar story about a passenger who died in first class and the crew decided to move the body out of there and into business. When the form of the flight engineer appeared through the dividing curtains dragging a body the passengers let out a gasp of shock and surprise. Not knowing what to say the flight engineer asked “Did anyone else have the fish?” True story apparently.

Kirk out……….

[ChrisVJ]

Disclaimers first.
I was not there.
I don't know all the circumstances
I have never died on a plane.

BUT
If I was enjoying a first class snooze I'd be shocked and horrified if the crew placed a corpse next to me. If there were wailing and gnashing of teeth relatives on board why the hell was not the corpse placed next to them?
Why not switch with back row next to window and place relative next to deceased. Sorry, I am with the complainant on this one. And if it happened to me I sure would not travel with that airline again, ever.

Sign me, JASSLFWPYW (Just another stupid self loading freight who pays your wages.)

[Final 3 Greens]

obgraham

No need to be defensive old chap, I made a polite enquiry, which seemed germane to me as the pax involved expressed a concern about infectious disease.

Given that you appear to qualified to say that "nothing will seep out and get you", I wonder if you have a view as to why the crew of the aircraft apparently did not contact their medical service in Texas and gain such reassurance for the pax who expressed concern?

[obgraham]

Greens I don't know the protocols for contacting Med-Air or whatever it's called.
I just don't understand why there would be more concern 5 minutes after the passing, than there was 5 minutes before. Just general discomfort with the "dead body" question I guess. It was the guy wanting compensation for having to put up with it all that got my goat.

Sorry for my attitude today. Wife claims it's a routine thing now!

[GlueBall]

Rainboe there is no "spiral" staircase in any of today's operated 74s by BA. :ouch:

[Final 3 Greens]

ob

Thakns for the further thoughts.

One can perhaps understand a non medic, who wasn't sitting next to the deceased and then awoke to find the corpse being placed in reasonably close proximity, being concerned about the possibility of infection.

I would have been.

Understandably a non issue for you with your knowledge, but for those of us who don't know what we don't know....

I also think that Flybywire's post makes a lot of sense in looking at a different way of handling the event.

[Bangkokeasy]

Given that this happens from time to time and there has been such a large amount of publicity over this incident, all of it negative to BA, that I would have thought it is high time that BA, and other airlines for that matter, made provision for demised SLF. It must surely be possible to adapt some space for eventualities such as this on long haul flights. The space could double as luggage storage when not in use for a corpse. The only concern with that would be to ensure that the poor ex-SLF is actually dead, before laying them out. However, I would think on a long haul flight, the chances that there is a doctor on board who can give at least a cursory, if not official verdict, is pretty good.

[Taildragger67]

Like I said:

1. Leave the deceased where they are if at all possible.
2. If possible, move the neighbouring punters.
3. Make it look like the deceased is sleeping.
4. Get address details from affected neighbouring punters.
5. Continue flight to wherever is going to affect the least number of people and where there is infrastructure to best handle the problem.
6. Give the punters in point 4. something small from the duty-free trolley or a bottle of F/C wine as they disembark.
7. Send said punters a nice letter signed by the CEO, thanking them for their "assistance and understanding" and add a few thousand FFP miles to their account.

OK, this might happen 10-12 times / year. So it affects a very small number of flights per year. Not really worth the cost of blocking off a coffin-sized space on every aircraft.

[slim_slag]

That is a very sensible customer service orientated solution, Taildragger. If reported correctly, telling a first class passenger to 'get over it' isn't. So many airlines really don't deserve our business.

[apaddyinuk]

I really am shocked at some of the attitudes in here. A person has died, it was a very difficult situation for all involved and the crew did what they thought was best. What could they have done???? Placed the body in crew rest??? IMPOSSIBLE...Have you seen the access hatches to these units....the crew would destroy their backs trying to get a body up there and then when rigor mortis has set there would be no way of getting the body out. Leave in the passengers origional seat??? Well no doubt if they did that we would have another news report about a full flight and children being traumatised by a dead body being strapped into an upright seat. Toilet??? NOW REALLY!
I personally feel the first class cabin was the most appropriate place to put the body, after all there is a little thing called "dignity after death" and the very fact that some narrow minded twit who feels he is above all else in life is a little pissed off that a dead person was put sitting next to him clearly speaks volumes about his lack of compassion.
Disgraceful carry on and I for one will certainly be avoiding SKY News from now on for giving such a muppet so much coverage!
And no, it does not happen that often statistically and no, Body bags are not loaded onboard!

[Final 3 Greens]

some narrow minded twit

In the past 6 months I have flown 8 x F sectors with EK and LX - none on BA.

Now I remember why I don't spend money on premium travel with BA, the premium passenger is treated as a PITA or despised.

I'm obviously another narrow minded twit.

[Octopussy2]

I am as squeamish as the next person (or more so), but, for me, Paddy's post sums it up. No matter what you have paid for your ticket, surely the only appropriate response is to (a) do all you can not to increase the suffering of those grieving around you and (b) be damned grateful it isn't you/your mother.

I read the Sunday Times report where the chap was quoted as being saying he was worried about the hygiene implications of being near a dead body for 5 hours. Again, unencumbered by any medical knowledge, surely common sense suggests this isn't much of a risk...

The lack of humanity displayed by Mr. Trinder is really disturbing.

[obgraham]

When you cough up the big bucks and/or miles to sit in the fancy sections, the airline already has given you a whole lot more: elbow room, butt room, knee room, and a real glass for your orange juice. And yes, at times I like it that way, too.

But it never ceases to amaze me at the sense of entitlement that goes along with it. Somebody dies on a flight, and they just don't want to be bothered.

Next thing they'll have to install separate air systems so the toffs don't have to breathe the same air as the rest of us.

[apaddyinuk]

FINAL 3 GREENS....
DO NOT TAKE MY POST OUT OF CONTEXT!!!!! Yet again you make a thread all about you.

I am not calling all First class customers Narrow Minded Twits! I nor the vast majority of my colleagues consider ANY of our customers narrow minded twits (and if you really do believe that we all do then you obviously have some sort of a complex). I am referring to the person who is complaining about being sat next to a dead body on a flight so much so that they have gone to the press about it. This person is the narrow minded twit and is probably only going to the press because the company told him to get over it and rather rightly so as he was more than likely looking for compensation (eg... profit off the back of some poor dead passenger this person did not even know)!!!!

I know you have a chip on your shoulder over BA, you drone on and on about it regularly and its getting tiresome. I find it hard that one person has had so many bad experiences with just one company but sure you havent flown us in a while so perhaps you are just out of touch...and no, Im not pro BA just cos I work for them, I have been round a bit before landing this airline.

A person is dead, it is not something that should be using as an excuse to bitch about an airline! Get your priorities in order and thank god, Allah, Hishnu or whoever the heck you preach to that it was not you that died at 38000ft!

[Final 3 Greens]

This person is the narrow minded twit and is probably only going to the press because the company told him to get over it and rather rightly so as he was more than likely looking for compensation

Your comments above are amazing - I am not surprised that this premium pax went to the press after being told to "get over it." F class pax pay your company a very large amount of money for a highly differentiated service.

He should have been compensated for his experience IMHO, as the service he received was considerably degraded. BTW I completely support the upgrading of the daughter, that was a humane and sensible move.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder about your company, I just find it too prone to the threat of industrial action and the attitude of a significant minority of crew/groundstaff to be poor (strangely enough, although we often cross swords on PPrune, I suspect that you are probably very good at your job and a credit to BA)

[theskyboy]

I'm pretty sure he'll get some sort of compensation as will most of the other passengers in F. We've only heard the press's version of his 'traumatic ordeal'. It did all seem to be about him didn't it?

I have to say if he was told to 'get over it', which is wrong, he must have wound the cabin crew up chronically. It would have taken a hell of a lot of goading for me to turn around and say something like that.

As crew we're told to look after the relatives with as much discretion and dignity as possible, and to me putting a dead person in a cupboard or toilet is hardly dignified. This is certainly something I hope I never have to deal with on board. However if it ever does, I will do my best to look after all those concerned and will consider every option available to me and hope that those affected will have some compassion.

[TightSlot]

It seems to me that the crew were faced with an unpleasant and difficult situation: They made the best decision they could, at the time. They had no choice - something had to be done. On the basis of what is on this thread, there was no correct answer i.e. whatever they had done would have caused distress to somebody. Since I wasn't there, I can't judge how appropriate the decision taken turned out to be.

Although there will be lessons to be learned (there always are) the crew involved made the best decison that they could, at the time, based on the available information and it seems to me that we should have some sympathy with the difficult circumstances under which they found themselves. The views expressed by the F passenger complaining are unattractive in purely human and compassionate terms, but in commercial terms, if throwing some miles/money at the problem fixes it, I would have thought it worthwhile?

[slim_slag]

Couple of interesting comments on the times report to be found here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article1530572.ece
I am the person named in the article.I wish to respond to the comment from K Guest. I did NOT mention compensation to BA. This has come about through some misinterpretation in the discussion with the journalist. He asked was I offered compensation and I said no, the question was not framed to elicit had I asked for it...... paul trinder, brackley, ukand....I was on this flight Concerned and I can tell you the staff on the flight had worked so hard to try and save this old lady,they were Brilliant....
It was a Emotional time for the Crew but they coped.

[grimmrad]

why not in the SLF area...

its more a matter of self unloading rather that self-loading...

[Final 3 Greens]

Tightslot

I don't see this as a CC problem, they did their best under difficult circumstances.

But I do see it as an airline problem - in my opinion the cost of an F ticket should include an element of contingency planning to avoid this sort of situation.

Neither do I view Mr Trinder's complaint as unattractive in purely human and compassionate terms, since I very much doubt that he was directing his dissatisfaction at the deceased, but at a service provider who had charged him top whack and were not delivering that service.

I am probably one of the few on this forum who, reasonably regularly, travels F and makes the purchasing decision, as opposed to using staff travel.
There are good reasons why one makes the decision to spend the price of a used car on a 8 hour journey and they are generally oriented around getting to the other end in good shape.

Whatever the compassionate issue involved, the airline in this instance (on the basis of press reports) seems to have done a poor job of meeting reasonable expectations.

Yes, people do die on aircraft and it must be distressing for all involved.

But, life must go on for the other pax, especially those who have paid a hefy premium for a premium experience.

[TightSlot]

F3G

Not often I would seek to disagree with you, but on this occasion...

I still can''t take issue with how the situation was dealt with on board: You do what you have to, at the time, in these highly infrequent and highly distressing incidents. I just don't see that the situation should be considered as a service failure of some kind, except in the same way that a non-survivable accident could be so described.

What does surprise me is that the situation could have been later handled, and recovered, more deftly than it appears to have been. You can't change the circumstances, but a prompt and generous refund or credit to those affected, and offers of counselling or assistance, initiated by the airline would probably have gone along way towards settling feelings and keeping things away from the media.

I am probably one of the few on this forum who, reasonably regularly, travels F and makes the purchasing decision, as opposed to using staff travel.

This is why your contributions to the forum are valued, both for your experience and eloquence

[Final 3 Greens]

Tightslot

The crew on the day have to do the best that they can do, I believe that they did. I sympathize with them for what they went through, for it must have been upsetting and I sympathize for the poor daughter who must have gone through her own hell.

My problem is with any airline that accepts several grand for a ticket, but does not make reasonable provisions to handle a foreseeable event (nearly once per month ) without disrupting the premium pax, who have paid not to be disrupted.

Its as simple as that.

[TightSlot]

Ok, point taken :ok:

[Atishoo]

I can see this is really really unfortunate for all concerned. But i would have been totally freaked out by a deceased person sat upright strapped in a chair sliding down. It must have been awful for anyone sitting near by, and even worse for her Daughter to have to see that.

Why oh why couldnt they have put this Lady in the crew rest area, which is at least private, so that it didnt traumatise other passengers.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but in my opinion it would have been far more dignified for all concerned.

[TightSlot]

Access to crew a rest area while carrying a person may not always be physically possible

[boyo25]

A previous poster mentioned lack of humanity…

I am BA cabin crew and only ten months ago I was faced with a death situation onboard. In my case the passenger was travelling alone and the death was discovered upon securing the cabin for landing. She was travelling in C.

For all I know, she could have been dead for the previous 11 hours. It is not our job for us (as crew) to wake each passenger from their slumber to check if they are alive.

She seemed asleep, the seat was in the bed position with the blanket covering all but her head. However. we quickly realised all was not well with her and started resuscitation. By this point it was clear to all of us involved that she was well gone ( rigor mortis), and the body was cold. We did continue CPR as it’s mandatory to do so for the first 30 minutes.

Here’s where things started to get interesting. Anyone who knows a BA jumbo will know the club configuration is 2x4x2. This lady was in the B (aisle) seat. The chap in the A seat seemed totally put out by the proceedings happening in his neighbouring seat, preferring instead to raise the dividing fan and continue tapping away at the lappy. Fair enough, it’s not ideal – 3 BA crew trying their best to revive a passenger whilst trying to finish your work before landing…We were trying for 15 minutes when ---

Mr A seat suddenly leapt up and started screaming at me and my colleague that ‘had we done our jobs correctly, this woman would probably still be alive’ and to leave the woman alone as she was gone and could ‘you imbeciles’ now get out of the way as he needed to access his bag in the overhead locker. Needless to say, we ignored him and carried on in our efforts. He was furious with us and proceeded to trample over my colleague to access the locker.

Utterly, utterly, despicable behaviour.

Upon arriving on stand, the skipper asked all pax to stay seated until the paramedics had seen to and removed our passenger. The air bridge was at D2L, which meant First pax had to go through the Club cabin to exit. Despite a crew member trying to divert and usher the passengers away from the aisle where the emergency was taking place, to my utter disgust, I saw eight (yes eight, I counted) First pax and several club passengers push past the crew member and step OVER (and in the process kick several times, albeit by accident) the poor woman’s body which was now being tended to by paramedics at the cross aisle section of the cabin. Being late on stand by 10 minutes seemed a perfectly reasonable excuse for them to do so.

Makes you think eh?

I’m sorry for the lengthy post, but I feel that I have to explain what we, as cabin crew, have to put up with when faced with very trying circumstances in an environment not suited to such incidents. Yes, in such situations people are going to be inconvenienced and it is not pleasant for anyone involved. However, this is clearly not the moment to start flashing around ‘status’ cards or whinging about how much money has been spent on a particular seat. Frankly, at that point, no-one will be listening.

With regard to my colleagues who put their dead pax in First, I truly cannot say what they did was wrong. If the flight was full, where are they supposed to put the body? I laugh at the idea of putting the corpse in crew rest areas - how crew are supposed to drag a corpse through a small hatch and up a step ladder onto a bed is beyond me. We’re told ‘dignity and respect’ – well a toilet or wardrobe is hardly either of those. As some posters have already highlighted – perhaps a clear policy by BA is needed. Indeed, a little more compassion and understanding from our surviving guests will go a long way to help!

Thank you.

[Octopussy2]

Boyo, that sounds like a truly horrible day at work - my sympathies.

I can't think of anything to excuse the passengers stepping over the woman to leave the aircraft more quickly. One thing does occur to me that might explain (if not excuse) Mr. A seat's behaviour though - perhaps he was in shock at discovering the lady next to him was dead, (I would be!) and also felt guilty because he hadn't noticed her condition earlier, despite being right next to her - that might explain the irrational behaviour you encountered.

F3G - your logic leaves me feeling uncomfortable. Let me ask you a hypothetical question. A passenger dies next to a family with children in economy. The choice is to move the body up to First (next to you, with your extremely expensive ticket, paid for by you) or to leave it in economy, next to the children, who are (understandably) upset. What would you want to happen then? Would your reasoning still be "I've paid not to be disturbed" or would you put their interests before yours?

[Final 3 Greens]

Octopussy2

You are asking the wrong question, in my opinion.

Why should ANY passenger have to sit next to a corpse?

If this is a relatively frequent event and probably will occur more frequently as the population ages, why do the airlines leave their crew to muddle through?

Please note that my gripe is with any airline who happily charges a lot of money for a premium cabin and then uses it as a temporary mortuary, I have sympathy with the crew who have to deal with the death (I wouldn't like to) and anyone else affected.

It shouldn't come down to the choice you raise.

But if you wish to play hypothetical games, let me ask you a question in return.

Let's say a senior executive is travelling to a board meeting, where s/he has to make a tough decision.

Your scenario occurs, the corpse is moved in to first class, next to the exec and s/he is so upset that s/he doesn't sleep at all.

Next day, s/he makes a bad decision due to fatigue and that results in several thousand people losing their jobs, with the attendant stresses that this causes, possibly leading to more than one stress related death and several divorces.
So all decisions have consequences and my hypothetical scenario is just as likely as yours.

[Octopussy2]

F3G - I do see where you're coming from. Actually, my question was based upon the premise that I don't think it would be practical for the airline to make other arrangements, partly because space is at such a premium on aircraft and partly because, even if they did have somewhere suitable to stow the body (ie. NOT the loos and not the crew rest room) that would still only be a possibility when the deceased is travelling alone - I suspect the deceased's family/friends would be upset if the crew tried to tidy the body away, however respectfully done (though no doubt everyone else would be mightily relieved - I certainly would be! But I place my interests below those of grieving family in those circumstances).
So I have some sympathy with the airline. Though I agree, in an ideal world, it's something you and I shouldn't have to deal with, I'm not sure there's a practical solution.

Edited to say: I hadn't read the second half of your post when I replied - must beg to differ with your "my hypothesis just as likely as yours" assertion. But let's not fight :)

[Final 3 Greens]

Octopussy

But let's not fight - agreed - the reality is that neither of us know how likely our scenarios are :-)

Are you aware that some 777s and 345s are fitted out with a suitable cupboard for this purpose? Where there is a will, there is a way.

Let me make it clear, again, that I am not criticizing the crews, who have to deal with a dreadful situation.

[Mixed Up]

The brutal fact is that if BA offers its first-class cabin as a stand-by morgue, no one will fly first-class with BA. Then there will be no stand-by morgue / first class cabin.

I therefore think the onus is on BA to make a special provision on its ultra long-haul aircraft, as you cannot expect any passenger in any cabin to travel for a significant length of time in such intolerable conditions. Most of us would be pretty freaked-out having a dead body next to us.

I have no idea what the special provision would be, except that it will certainly increase my ticket cost. That's a cost I'd be most happy to bear. I'm not sure how BA would market that particular 'luxury' though!

[obgraham]

Trouble is, if the airlines established a "corpse class", folks would sign up for it. I would: more room to stretch out.

[kingdee]

There is only one thing you can gurantee in life " death " either you fly y/c/f etc it could be you next time so have some respect for those guys n gals at 36000 ft .What do you all expect them to do ?
Remember the Captain / first officer / cabin crew all human lets have some respect .Okay you may pay xxx to fly to xxx in first so what happens if you die in first ??????? :bored:

[cavortingcheetah]

:uhoh:

One has to start off by saying that these days one always travels either First or Business class and always pays for the ticket price, one or two as appropriate, oneself. As flight deck crew, either retired or waiting in the shadows, equally as appropriate, sympathies are entirely with the cabin crew. They may be trained to deal with the utmost dire emergencies but how many times must they be expected to face the reality of such an event and deal with it in an absolutely ideal manner? Indeed, in this case, what is an ideal manner? There will be those who would surely take offence at mother shoved into a toilet cubicle, especially the passenger with full bladder or bowel at the early morning wake up call.
Might cabin crew be reasonably justified in expecting FC passengers to be a little steadier than the rabble in the back? Might not the decision to place the corpse in FC at least have been motivated by a desire to remove the offending article from the prying gaze of women and children? Must one really expect an airline to provide a sort of frozen lunchbox into which a dead body can be stuffed to await further consignment?
It seems quite probable that the crew in question adopted the most pragmatic solution available to them.
The airline might, solely as a gesture of goodwill, give everyone who travelled on that flight in First, a free ticket, same class, same route, but it is hardly their obligation to do so. Personally, one would prefer to sit next to a corpse for a while than some drunken, drugged or deranged passenger who had had to be handcuffed to an armrest. In such cases, the airline could hardly be held at fault unless the passenger in question had manifested signs of a pending problem on boarding. The carrier can hardly mitigate against what might happen on a flight; it can only be expected to take reasonable precautions beforehand. :ooh:

[Final 3 Greens]

There will be those who would surely take offence at mother shoved into a toilet cubicle
Yes

Might cabin crew be reasonably justified in expecting FC passengers to be a little steadier than the rabble in the back?
No - we're not the officer class, just people paying for a higher level of service

Must one really expect an airline to provide a sort of frozen lunchbox into which a dead body can be stuffed to await further consignment?
Yes, on long haul

The airline might, solely as a gesture of goodwill, give everyone who travelled on that flight in First, a free ticket, same class, same route,
There is no suitable compensation for an important meeting ruined by not getting decent rest - you obviously don't understand the life of a business executive

[SXB]

I think some people are completely missing the point. Unfortunately people do die on aeroplanes, this isn't going to stop. I don't think anyone can fault the crew or the passengers in this case (it also transpires the passenger in question was mis-quoted)

What is 100% clear is the responsability of the airline, they know full well a death will occur on their aeroplanes X number of times per year yet they do absolutely nothing to make the situation more bearable for both their crew and their fare paying passengers. I'm not going to suggest a solution, that's for the airlines, they're multi billion dollar corporations, I'm sure they can come up with something.

As for the issue of compensation, I don't think it's relevant. Once the journey is over it's over. Someone suggested a free ticket, as most frequent business travellers will know the last thing we want is an additional trip on an aeroplane, free or not, most of us aren't paying out of our own pockets....

[apaddyinuk]

F3G.....Been away on a long trip so just returning now.

I have taken a breath of fresh bangladesh air and have calmed down somewhat from my first emotive posting.

Yes I totally understand where you are coming from. But I do feel that it is one of those situations whereby you need to be there to judge for yourself. I wonder what the situation would have been like if it had been a First class passenger who had died and had been left in the seat!?!?!?!

[HALFPINT]

The lack of compassion and common sense being demostrated by certain people on this thread is a terrible insight - showing
what an "I World" this has become.

F3G - Get over yourself. If an exalted and talented senior executive, with responsibilty for the "well being" of thousands of people, can't stop for a minute and see that sometimes it is necessary to understand that their own needs/desires/selfishness become secondary in certain situations then we really have a horrible future ahead of us. These 'situations' often require selflessness and exemplary behaviour - surely, also, character traits of a great leader?

Just hope that if this should happen to anyone on this thread that the people around them behave with the compassion and civility fitting the terrible event.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

One of the problems with senior executives,as one sometimes has to remind one's staff, is that they tend to view themselves as far too talented and exalted. By definition and in practice, they rarely have to pay for their own tickets, and they are but the company servants of the investors in their employer. Investors who may, in their turn, well be passengers on the same flight as that on which the self styled executive himself is travelling.
One really does cringe sometimes at the errant behaviour of some of these jumped up salesmen as they parade around the various 'exclusive' airport lounges, hardly behaving as ambassadors for the multi-national corporations for whom they work and generally attempting to ride roughshod over their own stockholders.
A little humility on the part of those who enjoy the privilige of comfortable travel funded in part by even the most impecunious shareholder travelling in economy, would be a refreshing addition into the self important world of the business traveller of today. :cool:

[capt.cynical]

Sir, you sound like and appear to be an exact CLONE of Conrad Black. A real charmer,full of your own self importance and worth.:yuk: :}

[Final 3 Greens]

Paddy

Welcome home. We may disagree from time to time,but I always value your perspective.

If a 1st pax died, I would feel exactly the same way. I certainly would not expect the body to be taken to J, W or Y. But proper stowage facilities should be provided on long haul IMHO and you and your colleagues should not have to make it up as you go along and try to balance different interests in a difficult time.

SXB sums it up pretty well for me in his last posting.

Capt Cynical

Lord Black, to you sonny boy, travelled by private jet, possibly to be insulated from buffoons like you. BTW innocent until proven guilty.

Cavorting Cheetah

I am awaiting PAXBoy to arrive and give you his well balanced view on the rise of management over the past 20 years. I shall not try to steal his thunder, since he makes the points better than I can.

However, I am not one of the executives for whom you seem to carry a chip on your shoulder and the real power brokers tend to have BBJs or Gulfstreams, so are not that often seen in exec lounges with the "riff raff" premium
travellers such as me.

Half Pint

The lack of common sense and humility is on the part of the airlines - see SXB's last post.

If you really work in PR in the airline industry, you demonstrate a stunning lack of grasp on the impact of these events on those premium pax who contribute to the airlines' coffers.

[HALFPINT]

F3G - Conrad Black flew in private jets so that his wife could stop feeling mortified about having to leave Manhattan dinner parties early to catch the flight back to London.

"They'll know we are flying scheduled" she is reported to have moaned.

You can't live life with everything being someone else's fault or problem.

Regardless of what money has been spent to give one privacy, ability to rest, better wines and food - we all have a collective responsibility with regard to other people and other people's misfortune.

"The same people that you must use on your way up
You might meet up your way down" Allen Toussaint

You attitude is so over the top - it's not even wrong.

You may be interested to know that a Wall Street analyst did some research on the correlation between NYSE listed Corporations and private jets. There was a definable link between a Corporation's underperfomance and the ownership and use of private jets. So much for all of us needing to understand the pressures facing the modern executive.

Was in PR F3G - but not now and never in the airline industry - but if I witnessed a senior executive from a known company helping someone out in a difficult situation I would look upon his company's products with new eyes. If I saw one step over a dead body - I would never buy anything from that person's company - ever. That's PR.

[Final 3 Greens]

HALFPINT

Maybe time to update your profile? It says PR.

I can't believe that you are missing the point entirely.

Go back and read SXB's post. if you don't like mine. He says it all in a reasonable tone.

As to PR, being splashed all over a broadsheet as BA were with this incident is surely a more compelling example than your personal reaction.

I repeat most FQTVs pay to travel in a premium class to reach the other end in good condition to do something important, they should receive that service.
In the case of force majeure, then all normal rules are suspended.

However, with an ageing population, the occurrence of deaths in flight is likely to rise, so could a death in flight be force majeure?

I am not a lawyer, so legally I don't know, but my interpretation of common sense says no, since the airline could reasonably make provisions for such an event.

10 deaths in flight would certainly be force majeure in my opinion and I'll leave others to debate where the line betwwn 1 and 1o should be drawn.

In summary, a well thought out provision for this circumstance is in everyone's best interests.

[capt.cynical]

:O It's about 50 years since I was called "sunny boy" I'll take that as a compliment to my still youthfull good looks!!!
I wonder if the USA prison system recognises dubious UK pearages.:p :)
As to your description of me as only a "BUFFOON" Conrad would be most disapionted.:rolleyes:

[Final 3 Greens]

CAPT CYNICAL

Nice to have made your day, one way of the other.

Strangely enough a prison sentence does not result in the loss of a peerage, e.g. Lord Archer, although some may think it should.

[capt.cynical]

YAAAAAAAAAARRRRRNNNNNNNNNN !!

Good night M/lord:ugh: :rolleyes:

[SXB]

I still think some on this thread have missed the point, I think it unreasonable to criticise someone who would feel distressed sitting within proximity of someone who just died.The comments regarding CEO types are stereotypical generalisations cultivated by low quality media in the UK.

I think it's surprising that airlines have been allowed to ignore this problem for so long, after all it is their responsibilty to address all eventualities which could occur on their aircraft. Deaths onboard are a statistical certainty, simply dumping a body in a spare seat in F,J or Y is just not acceptable in my view.

[PAXboy]

F3GI am awaiting PAXBoy to arrive and give you his well balanced view on the rise of management over the past 20 years. I shall not try to steal his thunder, since he makes the points better than I can.Thanks for compliment, although it just confirms that I had too many years to observe them at too close a quarter. :hmm:

As it happens, I think that there may be another reason why I can contribute further to this discussion ... my current work involves me with bereaved people every week. Further, with the very recently bereaved. I am often speaking to them within 48 hours of the death and it can be less. And, No, I am not a funeral director or a vicar!

Firstly, the mgmt issue: I agree that long haul carriers are probably even now rethinking this problem. The newspaper blow up is one of the few things that moves corporates and the one that BA had was bad. The fact that the pax was misquoted and tried to correct the record is of no substance. The Y pax will think it funny and the C + F will think, "Ouch, that could be me next week."

A solution is available and Airbus have provided it in the 340 but my guess is that retro fitting the storage bay at a D-check is a non starter due cost and, besides, the problem is now. My guess is that they will look at body bags and the kind of lightweight stretcher that is used by the funeral trade for removals from domestic premises. BUT, as I have said before when this dicussion comes up - there is the thorny problem of having to stop resuscitation and then place the body into the zip up bag. Who decides that action is of the greatest import and will affect the decision by the carrier to provide body bags because - the moment you place them in the bag rather than under a blanket - you are saying that it really is over.

Now let us turn to consider the newly bereaved and we will assume that the deceased pax had one or more travelling companions. Given that the pax was able to board the flight it is obvious that the death was unexpected and, coupled with the location, that ensures that the shock factor to the newly bereaved will be at it's highest.

In the immediate hours following a death, some people wish to remain as close to the body as they can. It helps them to accept the death and, by constantly looking at and touching the body, to know that they are dead. They are frequently protective of the body and will protect it as if the person were still alive and may want no one else to touch the body. Some people want to be as far away from the body as possible. Many families - even with a quiet an expected death at home - will phone the funeral company at three in the morning and they want that body GONE and they want it GONE now.

Not many people know into which category they will fall before they are bereaved and certainly not under the circumstances that we are discussing. Consequently, you can place the body in a bag and slot it neatly away into the horizontal storage bay and the Sunday Trash will run the story: BA stuffed my mother into a bin liner and I was not even allowed to hold her hand. It was torture and I would hate someone else to go through blah blah blah.The individual's reaction will also depend heavily upon their cultural and religious background - so you can see the range of variables involved.

I think that's enough for now, all questions welcome and I am not being coy about my work, if you think it's important to know - then ask. But the one certainty is that none of us know how we are going to feel when we are bereaved - until the split second that it happens. Even with an expected death, the sense of unreality is overwhelming. And each bereavement is different from the one before and you will feel different. But logic and a measured reaction is not usually part of it - certainly not at FL360.

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Heavens above or below, what are the consequences if the body, so dexterously stuffed into a body bag, is actually alive but in a state of catatonic or alcoholic trance?
Life insurance companies and their assessors would have a field day with that, would they not? Suffocation at the hands of the crew would leave an untidy little wrangle.
The most judicious course of action might be to strap the suspected deceased into a seat in the cockpit where specially trained operatives, skilled in the avoidance of death, can keep a watchful eye on it. Some crews are even known to say prayers at moments of great stress and that would surely be a comfort to any relatives on board who would have to wait, because of security requirements, on the other side of the, as it were, mortuary door.:ooh:

[HALFPINT]

PAXboy - a sensitive and measured response - exactly what is needed and especially by passengers at FL360.

My 'outrage' was stirred by the story of First Class passengers "stepping over" a body and how we seem to have evolved into a 'society' that positively fears and has trouble understanding death let alone the fact that some individuals have deluded themselves into thinking that they can pay to avoid the proximity and repurcussions of one of the two things in life that is certain.

All I am asking is that people show some humanity and understanding - regardless of how much they have paid for their ticket.

[Final 3 Greens]

In that case Half Pint, you were well out of order to have a go at me, as I certainly did not condone people stepping over a body and expressed, several times, my sympathy for the deceased and relatives, as well as for the crews who have to deal with the aftermath.

[SXB]

I'd say Halfpint has been reading the Daily Mail again....

[TightSlot]

Can we keep it as friendly as possible please?

[Muizenberg]

This Unreasonable pasenger is after £££. What a selfish, uncompassionate, individual.
If it were his wife, mother, or child that had died on a long-haul flight would he not want to be treated with the same care and compassion as the grieving daughter of the deceased woman?? Given his attitude, he would have probably DEMANDED a venue other than economy and, not given a sh1t about other passengers.

Lets put some facts straight:

1. BA cabin crew can not declare a passenger dead, this has to be done by a medical professional. If not available onboard, this has to wait until landing, thus a body bag/storage facility is inappropriate. Storing someone in a corpse facility who has not been pronounced dead is a whole new law suit in waiting.

2. A diversion to declare a passenger dead would cause a lengthy delay (if there is an appropriate location to divert to); then logistics like where the body goes next has to be considered (is there space/adequate storage facilies in the hold, does the diversion airport have the right equipment/personal to service the aircraft?). On this flight WHERE would the passenger liked to have gone?? Kabul, Tehran, etc??

3. Crew rest facilities usually involve restriced access, i.e. up a narrow, staircase, with tight corners.

4. Airlines will not install facilities for bodies unless warranted to by a governing body. Why loose revenue (having to take out seats)? How many airlines other than SQ provide this facility? Do QF, SA, UA, CO, VS, CX, EK?? Think the answer is NO. At the end of the day a voluntary modification would have to be paid for. Would passengers be happy to loose legroom, have to pay for drinks in economy or have no individual IFE to finance this facility. I don't think so.

5. How do you think the crew felt? Cabin crew are usually recruited for their ability to have empathy. This was a no win situation. Do you upset a Premium customer? or console a grieving daughter who has just lost her mother? The decision will not have been taken lightly, it was a no win situation, someone was going to be unhappy. Do you risk a riot of 200+ people in the back or risk upseting one precious soul in first? Do you not think the crew involved have been traumatised by the situation? Especially those who had to carry the body?? To the likes of this selfish passenger the crew involved may have been nobodies, but when you are in a job where you try to keep everyone happy, do you not think as few of the crew involved have need serious therapy?

[Final 3 Greens]

Muizenberg

Whatever your feelings, please will you edit your post so that it is no longer libelous, since the owners of this website could be held accountable for your words.

[Muizenberg]

Final 3 Greens,

Done. Thank you for advice, followed and task completed.:ok:

[TightSlot]

And thanks from us as well...

[HALFPINT]

"Solipsism is sometimes expressed as the view that "I am the only mind which exists," or "My mental states are the only mental states." However, the sole survivor of a nuclear holocaust might truly come to believe in either of these propositions without thereby being a solipsist. Solipsism is therefore more properly regarded as the doctrine that, in principle, "existence" means for me my existence and that of my mental states. Existence is everything that I experience -- physical objects, other people, events and processes -- anything that would commonly be regarded as a constituent of the space and time in which I coexist with others and is necessarily construed by me as part of the content of my consciousness. For the solipsist, it is not merely the case that he believes that his thoughts, experiences, and emotions are, as a matter of contingent fact, the only thoughts, experiences, and emotions. Rather, the solipsist can attach no meaning to the supposition that there could be thoughts, experiences, and emotions other than his own. In short, the true solipsist understands the word "pain," for example, to mean "my pain." He cannot accordingly conceive how this word is to be applied in any sense other than this exclusively egocentric one."

[Final 3 Greens]

Hang on, we are talking about a bloke who didn't like having a corpse put in a seat next to him, apparently without being asked if he objected or even told what was going on (if the article is correct), who then expressed displeasure, especially as the cadaver kept slipping onto the cabin floor, in turbulence.

To infer that someone, under these circumstances, is a Solipsist is ridiculous.

Best not to use words that you do not understand.

The article you quote appears to be discussing Solipsist Syndrome, which is something entirely different and also unlikely to be true of this gentleman.

[HALFPINT]

Sorry F3G & SXB - should have made myself clearer.

That was with reference to some of your smug, self-preening previous posts.

Some of you guys have such a sense of "entitlement" - you make
Viz's "Spoilt Bastard" seem like Raoul Wallenberg.

[Final 3 Greens]

I think, therefore I am.

[TightSlot]

And so, to bed...