Single or Multi CPL?

[BlueRobin]

Hi

It has suggested to me, perhaps by a school rep wanting to protect their pass rates, that a MEP CPL is far tougher than a SEP CPL and that the latter is the one to go for. I'm aware of the requirments laid out in FCL1, e.g. that with the skills test on MEP you are not required to do PFLs but there is assymetric work involved. But is it really that hard? Any thoughts as to whether the rep is BS-ing or not?

[Deano777]

Hi Neil

(I have responded to your email at last ;) )

I would say that the issue with the multi CPL is that things are ok until it starts going wrong (if), and if it does it can get away from you real quick, you will go from a 95kt warrior to a 140kt seneca, and even in the arrow I saw groundspeeds of 170kts, this can get out of hand very quickly if you are not on top of it, then if you take a partial it will cost you the best part of £1000 to redo it.
End of the day I guess you have to weigh up the extra Multi hrs you will have, will it be that beneficial? a few more hrs twin duel? to be honest, I can't see it making a jot of difference. What you do want to do is give yourself every chance of passing 1st time.

Dean

[BlueRobin]

Oooh I'm rumbled :p

I have been flying a 130kt high-performance taildragger so know what you mean about the 90kt PPL mindset.

Why are you still on Probationary?

[CAT3C AUTOLAND]

I think the question you have to ask yourself, is why make it more difficult for yourself? For the sake of having to do a PFL, I would do it on SEP. I am assuming you don't have a MEP rating? Flying a twin is not hard, but will give you other things to think about on your CPL skill test.

I would do it in a single, and follow on with the MEP and multi IR, if that is what you are going for.

Good luck.

[Rob's Dad]

Horses for courses. Did my CPL in the States on a twin and yes it is a big step up from PA28 to Duchess, PPL to CPL plus doing it in another country. But I way I saw it (and still do) is that the cost and time of doing it in the US and then converting was same as doing SE CPL in UK; however as I have more ME hours now I will hopefully be relaxed about flying the aircraft when I get to the MEIR test which frees up (valuable) spare capacity. Doing all the IR on the Duchess as well. Does everything happens quickly? I suppose it does, but as I've never done a SE IR, I don't know any other speed! Plus this is only jumping from 100 knots to 140 - the next step should be far bigger than that!

[Deano777]

But the thing with the IR is that there are no surprises, whereas the CPL "can" be more vague, so hence if you are not used to the twin it can get out of hand.
I hadn't flown twins before my ME IR and I didn't struggle with the transition, you will learn most of the procedural side of flying the twin in the sim anyway, so jumping back in the twin after the sim is no problem

BR, I have absolutely no idea why I have Probationary PPRuNer on my title, as it always used to be different, I am wondering if I have been naughty ;)

[wbryce]

I'm planing on doing the ME CPL route mainly since its more ME time which can only benefit me. Whether you do the CPL in a SEP or MEP, both come with their own set of difficulties.

For me in a comparision point of view, so much more can go wrong doing a PFL with a hefty ROD. The drawback is it will cost you more to retrain in the twin than it will in the arrow but its not much more per hour (£90ph more with the provider im looking at..in the grand scale of things its not as dramatic as you make it out to be).

Yes the aircraft flies faster but your legs will be slightly longer so timings shouldn't be a problem. You do have a visual problem with two big donkeys either side of you. Providing you've flown an aircraft more than 110kts then you shouldn't need to worry about the speed aspect imo.

[potkettleblack]

I did a multi cpl and IR here in the UK. Yes it costs a hell of a lot more but then quality training does. I personally found that when it came around to the IR that I pretty much had the beast doing what I wanted it to and all the airspeeds/pwer settings/SOPs etc were so ingrained in me that it was second nature. I couldn't imagine doing the CPL on a single, then a multi rating then the multi IR. To much for my wee brain to cope with I am afraid. My CV looks great with all of those multi hours though I have to say.

[cheesycol]

I did a multi-CPL and yes, it is a big jump from a slow single. The multi hours allowance in the training for me didn't leave me enitirely comfortable that I would pass the skills test 1st attempt. However, another hour with an instructor ensured I passed first attempt.

My thought process for choosing the multi-cpl vs single, was that when the IR came around, I wanted to be ahead of the game and feel more comfortable on the a/c than if I was learning a multi and IR procedures. Seemed to work for me.

[FlyingForFun]

I did my CPL on a single. I now teach CPL at a school which offers both options to students, although most students choose to do the CPL on the multi.

I think it's probably true that it's slightly more difficult to do the CPL on a multi, but I really don't think it's a huge increase in difficulty over doing it in a single.

Personally, I wouldn't let this influence your choice of school. There are far more important factors. If you find a school which you like, then the aircraft they use really shouldn't affect your decision to train at that school.

One thing I would be slightly wary of, though, is doing the CPL partly on a single, then finishing it on the multi. This is an option which my school offers, but one which not many students take up. Those who do find that, when they go for their CPL test, they have relatively few multi hours (compared to someone who's done the entire course on a multi), and this is a big increase in difficulty IMHO.

FF
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[NavPilot]

Maybe this is a bit off topic, esp since the question here is whether to go SECPL or MECPL, I do have a similar circumstance in SEP to MEP transition. The difference being whether it should be SE-IFR or ME-IFR...
Well, words from the wise that you're better off doing your IF on the SE including approach and let down procedures, and then maybe the last 5 hours on the ME followed by the IF test. Ofcourse the prime considertaion is the cost saving, but heard lots that doing A-Z on the ME, is more an hour building tactic of instructors and FTO's alike! That might be true, but is not of great relevance to me. The only concern is how difficult is it transitioning on to the ME, after doing all or well...a couple hrs or more short of all...training on the SE
Is it advisable to, in the above case, limit to about half the training on the SE, and complete the rest on the ME?...maybe that also allows to realise, once you've gotten on the ME, that you've got handling/IF procedural gaps that might be ironed out by hopping back onto the Singles for a few sortie's...?
Does it really help..:confused:

[Deano777]

Nav

Absolutely no way, if you do it the way you are suggesting you are asking for trouble, you want to sit the Instrument Rating Skill Test having 5hrs in the twin? you are a braver man than me I can assure you.
The other aspect is that if you are planning on going to the airlines do you really think they will view your IR as a multi IR? and I think in the world of JAA land this would not constitute a Multi IR course anyway (someone can clarify better than me here), a multi IR is just that, the whole course is done on a multi, same with the single IR.

Dean

[NavPilot]

Thanks Dean.
Didin't quite believe it was a good idea myself.
Having said that, there's loads of people who recommend atleast get a SEIFR first, then go for a MEP followed finally by the MEIFR. Now the argument is, it turns out to be more cost effective...rather than "burning gas getting to grips with the IF basics (climbs-descends,rate 1's, unusual attitudes etc)on a twin"
How much truth is in it...well one has to go through it to really understand:rolleyes: Maybe the people I've been talking to are the ones who get the SEIR to use it for SEP flying/timebuilding and go for the MEIR convex once they've got some IF time built up...

[Deano777]

The point with it is Nav is that after your Multi Rating you will generally jump into an FNTPII Simulator to learn the procedural side of the training, then you will jump in the aircraft when your instructor feels you are ready, and personally I did the Multi IR, and I had only ever flown a twin when I did my MER, I had no issues on the Multi IR course, and I would suggest that you probably won't either ;)

Dean

[BlueRobin]

If the FTO didn't have a FNPT2, I guess they would go the first step on a single until proficient?

[Deano777]

Are there any FTOs in the UK that doesn't or more importantly, can't offer part simulator? few and far between are they not?

[FlyingForFun]

A major part of the MEIR is asymmetric approaches. To do a load of training on single-engine aircraft (whether sim or not), and not be able to practice such a major part - and one which a lot of people struggle with, too - is madness.

As for not having a sim, it would definitely be a big drawback, but not impossible. The biggest issue would be the extra cost - but other advantages of sims are that there's no difficulty booking approaches at busy airports, the weather can be as good or as bad as you want depending on your stage of training, ATC can be as helpful or unhelpful as you want depending on your stage of training, you can be re-positioned at the start of an approach without having to fly there first (which can double the number of approaches you can fly in a given time when you are at the early stage of learning to fly approaches), the instructor can fail things when he wants including things which would be dangerous in the aircraft (engine failure immediately before or immediately after take-off, for example).... the list goes on.

But none of these can't be overcome - there are very few schools which offer training for an IMC rating which have a sim, for example, but the advantages of having a sim for this course would be identical to an IR (except maybe the cost difference would be less), which is proof that it could be done.

FFF
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[jaymak]

I've flown SE all the way to my PPL, and from here to CPL (+IR) I'll be flying ME.

The way I see it is you have to do the command time anyway (~50hrs here in Aust.) so you may as well pay a bit extra while you have the chance and make them 50 golden ME command hrs.