Airline expansion
Demand for pilots sky-high

Regional carriers fuel much of the market; some worry that companies may lower standards
By Paul Beebe
The Salt Lake Tribune

Article Last Updated: 02/07/2007 12:50:58 PM MST

Fresh on the heels of hiring 610 pilots last year, SkyWest Airlines intends to hire another 700 this year to keep even with the regional carrier's snowballing growth.

It will be a daunting task. Regionals are flourishing as they pick up less-profitable and shorter routes that national carriers no longer want to fly. The consequence is a shortage of commercial pilots, which some in the industry predict could reach a crisis level and others say has compelled some airlines to lower their hiring standards closer to government minimums in order to fill seats in their cockpits.

"We are looking nationwide. We have a full-court press throughout the system," said Necia Clark-Mantle, vice president of people for St. George-based SkyWest. "The market in general is pretty difficult."
SkyWest executives say the airline has not lowered its hiring benchmarks. Its applicants need 1,000 hours of flying time, including 100 hours piloting multi-engine airplanes in order to get a job interview, and its typical candidate has 1,800 hours of experience. The Federal Aviation Administration requires 250 hours of flight time for a commercial license.
"Anything above and beyond what is stated [in FAA rules] is a business decision on the part of the airline," FAA spokesman Les Dorr said.
Because SkyWest is unwilling to relax its requirements, it must work harder than some airlines to hire qualified pilots.

Great Lakes Airlines demands 750 hours and is not feeling a shortage of acceptable candidates, said Monica Taylor, a spokeswoman for the Cheyenne, Wyo.-based regional carrier. American Eagle, which is hiring 30 to 60 pilots a month, accepts as few as 400 hours if applicants complete pilot training at approved flight schools, spokesman Dave Jackson said. American Eagle is a subsidiary of AMR Corp., which also owns American Airlines.

SkyWest has posted help-wanted notices on its Web site, and it will conduct pilot career fairs in Salt Lake City and seven other cities this month. The airline wants to talk to pilots who fly for other regionals or who have been furloughed by bigger carriers. And it's combing through university aviation programs, looking for acceptable candidates.
There might be no time like the present to become a pilot for hire. Airlines hired about 8,500 aviators last year, and the pace should continue at that level or higher for the next 10 years, according to AIR Inc., which tracks pilot hiring. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates the global appetite for new pilots at 17,000 a year through 2024.

"All I can say is it's the best time to get into the industry," said Mike Kraus, program director for the aviation studies program at Westminster College, which graduates about 110 commercial pilots a year, ready for the job market. "When you are born sometimes controls your destiny and opportunities."

The remarkable turnaround of the airline industry - whose fortunes ebbed after 9/11 - is behind much of the demand for pilots, said Kip Darby, president of Atlanta-based AIR. Much of the industry is returning to profitability after wresting huge pay and benefits concessions from employees, shedding expensive retirement programs and shifting more flying to contract carriers such as SkyWest. Rising fares and falling jet fuel prices are helping, too.

At the same time, the military - traditionally one of the best sources of commercial pilots - is retaining more of its aviators. And many pilots who leave the military are choosing other careers, underlining the instability in the airline industry that has pushed many carriers to extract big pay and benefit cuts from their employees.

"The next big crisis is a lack of qualified crews," said Ed Thiel, a Delta Air Lines captain and member of the executive council of the Delta unit of the Air Line Pilots Association. "The airlines are having difficulty finding qualified applicants. There are not as many people coming out of the military route, and it's almost prohibitively expensive to go through the civilian route, while the career has degraded to the point where it doesn't make sense to go into the business."

Aspiring pilots who enroll in aeronautical colleges can expect big tuition bills. An undergraduate degree at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Florida costs almost $100,000. Thiel said nonacademic routes to a job at a major airline can be as expensive and take 10 years to complete.
All the same, a job isn't hard to find after a pilot earns a commercial license.

Two years ago, Frank Ayers, chairman of Embry-Riddle's flight department, was able to keep graduates on as flight instructors for a couple of years before they landed a job flying for a regional airline or other employer.
"I'm lucky now if I keep someone six months," Ayers said. "Don't get me wrong; it's a good problem to have. Despite all the bankruptcies, it appears that the increased demand for air travel is solid. Airlines have finished downsizing and have figured out how to fly profitably."

Analysts are betting that most airlines will report strong earnings in 2007. Ray Neidl of Calyon Securities thinks that American Airlines could earn earn $4.06 per share, or about $889 million, with United Airlines earning $4.80, or abut $531 million. SkyWest is expected to be the most profitable regional carrier, earning $2.71 a share, or close to $173 million, this year.
"There is a relationship between airline profits and hiring," AIR's Darby said. He believes that some airlines will earn as much as $1 billion a year as their profitability builds during the rest of the decade. "If that relationship holds true, we will see a lot of hiring."

The pilot hiring that SkyWest is undertaking is part of a broader plan to expand its 10,000-employee work force by up to 4,000 workers this year. In part, turnover is pushing the airline to accelerate pilot hiring. Regionals historically have been where young pilots assemble enough flying experience to move to bigger airlines.

About 10 percent of SkyWest's pilots leave the company each year. Some pack it in when they reach age 60. (Last week, the FAA said it would propose raising the compulsory retirement age to 65.) Others leave for jobs at other airlines, said Camille Ence, manager of pilot recruitment.
Most pilots who leave hope to hire on at national airlines and air cargo companies, which pay more and give better benefits, Darby said. FedEx pays an Airbus A380 captain with 10 years of experience $17,464 a month, according to WillFlyForFood.cc, a Web site that compares pilot pay. An American Airlines captain flying a Boeing 767 earns $11,008 a month. SkyWest jet captains with a decade of experience earn about $3,000 a month. First officers are paid $1,425 a month, according to WillFlyForFood.
Although some bankrupt carriers have turned their retirement programs over to the government Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp., most retirement packages at the bigger airlines are still defined-benefit programs instead of 401(k) programs. Bigger airlines also provide more rest time between flights, Darby said.

The key reason why SkyWest must hire hundreds of new pilots this year is its growing alliance with Delta. In November, Delta selected SkyWest Inc. to take over some of the regional flying business operated by its Comair subsidiary. This month, Delta will shift the flying of 12 Canadair regional jets to SkyWest, The company also is waiting to hear whether Delta will award it another 131 Comair jets. Each aircraft needs a rotation of nine pilots.
Delta also granted eight of the 70-seat jets to SkyWest when it bought Atlantic Southeast Airlines in September 2005. Those aircraft are scheduled to be delivered between now and May.


It is getting crazy in the US, Big Big pilot shortage for regional airlines FO, CFI and Part 135 operatores.

2007 has been a very good year so far and I hope it keep going:ok:

It's a wave that aviation experiences once every ten years or so.

It's really nice to see hiring, but at the same time I have difficulty with the notion of regionals complaining they can't find enough pilots when they pay them outrageously low salaries...

Aviation could have a serious problem in the future.

It's very expensive to become a pilot, and the working conditions are such that a lot of people who would make the best pilots are forced to look at other careers because the labor conditions are so bad...

Where I live a half-decent house costs $500,000.... How the heck are you supposed to provide that for your family on a regional pilot's salary?

As fun as flying is, who wants to raise a family as one of the "renting" class... That's just not responsible.

The post below is from another website that discuss the pilot shortage in USA, I thought it would be interesting what this guy have to say about 135 operatores in USA, so here it comes:


135 Operators are in serious danger. I do not give them many more years in operation. Not many 135 operators will be able to stay in business.

Really? Yes and that because of the Pilot shortage that is already a reality. Desperate pilots taking any kind of job for the hours or as a step into experience necessary for applying to the regionals are soon history.

Who will accept what the small 135 night cargo companies have to offer? flying all night in old equipment freezing like hell, loading and unloading their airplanes many times per night and being forced to fly in any kind of weather, accepting mechanical problems in the name of operational interest? and that being paid 1700 to at the most 3000 per month before tax?

The regionals are taking every trainable pilot available in the market and we have only seen the start. The Regionals needs 7000 to 10000 new pilots during 2007. The big airlines will be seriously start hiring at the end of 2007 and even more during 2008 taking most of the new pilots from the US regionals and they will need even more pilots. The international market need for US pilots mainly in Asia (China, etc) will increase dramatically.

Who will want to fly for the 135 operator? All night? for what? for nothing?

Corporate and Charter operators will also increase the demand for pilots. The 135 operators that will survive are the ones that will be able to increase the salaries seriously and will have to treat their pilots like kings to make them stay. Who will financially be able to do that? The days of the night working slaves will soon be over..............................


One thing I just want to mention to this post is that Very Light Jets are cooming to the market this year and we should expect somewhere around 1000 of them. Insurance requires two pilots for each. So, we are looking about 3-4000 pilots. Flight Schools in US this days consist of Indian and Chinese students, and the schools are crying for CFI's. A lot of students are on hold for CFI shortage.

It will be very interesting to see what really going to happen in a year or two,,,,, I'm so glad I just graduated from college with a professinal pilot degree:D.

You're lucky to be finishing now.

I finished right after 9-11... you needed a million hours just to be a lowly CFI back then.

However, until wages come up the industry has no right to complain about shortages, real or imagined.

Too many people have been deterred from aviation because the working conditions created by the industry have been extremely poor.

Who wants to go $100,000 in debt for a job that pays $17,000 per year?

Also, things look good now, but what about when the next down turn hits?

The drive to get more bums on seats..not only in the US but also in Europe..is driving down air-fares to ludicrously low levels and cost cutting across the board by the operators is taking its toll... what is the fascination with turning aircraft into Greyhound buses ?
I'll be moving to the States later this year and have been looking at the ads for pilots... a total joke... You'd need horses and chains to get me out of the house for what's being offered... in most cases it wouldn't cover even a modest mortgage... I'm going into property and will buy myself a small single to have some fun with. The employers can go whistle for my 8000 hours.

There's no shortage. Flight schools and businesses that sell employment such as Air, Inc love to spread those rumors...but there's no pilot shortage. There never was. Don't get sucked into that noise.

The soon to be enacted FAA Part121 age-65 rule will help to keep many well qualified airline pilots in the USA. Presently, many ALPA age-60 "retired" USA airline captains have benefited from Direct Entry positions at foreign air carriers. Curiously, since last November, these over age-60 pilots are now also operating their foreign registered birds into their home turf. :D

Sorry to butt in but I thought the US paid good wages for pilots?

Isn't the UK (EU) the same.

When you guys mention working conditions, how different is it in the US to the UK etc?

The reason I ask is im debating in my head whether to go for the FAA or JAA airline license, im in limbo...not good.:ugh:

:uhoh:

Com 1... as always with these things there will be a wide variety of incomes according to who / what and where you fly... pretty good are the mid and large sized business jets for large corporations... bottom end are the 135 piston and small turbo-prop pilots willing to fly for food... On the whole you'll be much better paid in Europe with a JAA licence... but the JAA is very much harder to aquire... roughly equivilent to one of the US aviation college BA degrees and hugely more expensive... also costs of living can be a lot higher in many parts of Europe...especially if you're flying out of a London airport..

The much lower cost of living in many parts of the US make it attractive and generally I find that even taking the lower salaries / medicare /federal taxes / state taxes ad nauseaum into account, people generally have a better qulaity of life in the US and more disposable income... you need a VERY LARGE income in most of ( northern ) Europe to enjoy a good quality of life...unless maybe you want to live in Scotland.

The salaries I've been looking at in the US are often quoted as $15 / $20 perhour... with 100 hours pm less tax I would be looking at around $1600 pm ... about 800 UK pounds per month... !!!!!:ugh: :yuk: :*

Wow thats pretty crappy for a salary, sorry to hear that.

Im keeping my options open anyhow. In regards to obtaining the JAA, in what instances is it harder to get?

Is it harder aswell like studying and more difficult questions etc?

Cheers

Com 1
There's no comparison at all.... I did my UK licence many years back and it was tough enough then... I think I sat about a dozen maybe thirteen exams.. minimum time for any maybe 1 to 1 1/2 hours...several were 3 hours... we had to sit ( I think ) maybe 10 at one sitting over 2 or 3 days... 7 passes got a partial and we were allowed to sit the 2 or whatever failures again... if you'missed more than 2 or 3 then everything had to be re-sat... things like Met are split into 3 seperate exams..met Practical / met Theory and Climatology... each 1 or 1 1/2 hours... Nav and Flt Planning were each 3 hrs and pretty tough.... many don't finish in that time. I believe that since the introduction of JAA it's become harder in some ways...easier in others.. not really up on that.. On the plus side, the flying exam is pretty starightforward... consists of general handling mostly and done in a single... the Instrument Rating is done seperately at some later date...neither are very demanding except that the student has very low hours. To some extent the oral exam necessary in the US makes up for the joke written test ( I sat my written at a computer...hadn't looked at a book for 14 yrs and got 87% after just 40 minutes... and I'm not too bright ! ) If the examiner senses any weakness in your knowlege he'll probe until he has you writhing in agony... I'm told some oral tests last for up to 5 hours or so.. I was lucky and got through it in about 2 hrs...
The FAA ATPL flight test was without doubt the toughest flight test I've ever endured... 2 1/2 hours of bloody hard work.. I have to say the guy ( Hank Smith..Long Beach Ca. ) was exteremly fair..( also extremely HUGE )

Hiring aircraft in the UK is about twice that of the US. Someone else will have to advise you on minimum hour requirement... I've lost touch.

If you're a US citizen or have lived there and are comfortable there then I would say go the US route.. if you have any need now or in the foreseeable future to have to fly in Europe then you will have to go for the JAA..

Hey, is it possible to get both JAA and FAA? Is it more hassle though and alot more studying?

I dont want to snow myself under until I get pain in my head lol.

here is the link, http://www.naples-air-center.com/dev/index.php?view=67

this flight school only offers FAA http://www.naiasc.com/

This offers both, http://www.flyoft.com/

Just wondering what your view would be on these places?

P.S Is it possible to go to the states and obtain a PPL then come home and go in maybe a year to do the rest?

Cheers :ok:

Sarah :)

There are certainly advantages to doing as much of your training in the US as possible... not only much cheaper..especially with the dollar now regarded as almost a third world currency...but also in places like Florida and the west Coast the weather being so much friendlier means you can get the thing done a lot quicker... the more you fly the easier the whole thing comes together.. many in the UK struggle to find the money for the hours and then struggle to find the weather to fly.. this means often that the first half hour of any lesson is trying to catch up on what's been forgotton since flying maybe 3 weeks ago... bit like ski-ing really :)

There are a number of JAA qualified schools now in the States... looking through the mags will suggest a few.. as for their reputation... try the wanabee forum on PPrune.. or any other forum you think might suit...the Mods will move the post to where they think it should be...
One rule applies to any training organisation no matter whether it's FlightSafety or Arnies Flite-Club... NEVER PAY LARGE AMOUNTS UP FRONT !

Pay them enough in advance to see you through the next week... if they're not happy with that then pay someone else.

As for getting both JAA and FAA.... do that only out of necessity... as I did... remember... the FAA is still pretty useless outside of the US and in the more remote areas of the world... That doesn't include Scotland := :O

Do you think it would be in my best interest to go for just the JAA license or have the FAA too under my belt just incase? Cost wise its about the same at NAC but probably alot more studying and commitment involved but i would have the best of both worlds i guess.

Im guessing the US isn't a very desirable country to live in anymore with the $ being so low?

Com 1.

If for some reason you have the right to live and work in the US then I would suggest you go for it, you're the right age to get into aviation and this is a very good time to do it..... But there's no way that the FAA licence should cost anything like the JAA costs in Europe so if that's what they're quoting then shop around.

Im hoping to do it in 2-3 years as i am saving for it.

I was just wondering about desirable countries to live in etc and the best license to get. Is it alot more work getting the FAA and JAA?

Also what is the Canadian license like?

Its a Canada Vs America question.

:)

Canada is closer to the JAA licence I believe but still not as tough, better you ask someone from canada... far fewer opportunities up there and most of them cold. If you do the JAA licence and then add on the FAA the FAA will cost next to nothing as you'll already have the hours... sitting the FAA exam is maybe a couple of hundred dollars and you won't fail it... sitting the JAA exams costs well over $2000 and you may have to sit them more than once if you fail to get a partial pass, which happens often enough.. even re-sitting a couple of partials will set you back maybe $400 plus travelling... If money is a major concern and you can work in the US I suggest you go that route and once estblished in the industry with a couple of thousand hours behind you, then think about whether you want to come back to Europe...
Anyway... whatever you choose... very best of luck :D

Hey, thanks for the advice i appreciate it :ok:

Do you think i'd be better of just getting the FAA license and training over there then building hours and obtaining the JAA there too, i heard it can be done which is good :)

Commander1 be carefull coming to US, we are facing a CFI shortage at the moment and it just started, IT WILL GET WORST,, belive me it will. I'm a flight instructor with 800 tt and I will be gone soon, THANK GOD. Regionals are picking up every pilot with 500 tt and 50 multi. Some of regionals pick you up with an commercial license and multi engine ad on it. Don't want to mention any names here.

If you call the flight school they will say no, there is no problem we have plenty of instructors. I will call it Bu.....:mad: ....et. They want your money.

There are several Indian and Chinese students that are on hold at the moment, due to the shortage.

I have several friends at the regional airlines and they said the real hiring will start within few months.

I'm getting offer left, right, center to come work for flight schools as a CFI. A flight school offered me between 30K a year if I sign a one year contract with them. := Don't get me wrong, I love flying, but there are better and bigger airplanes out there. AND IT WOULD BE NICE TO FLY ONCE WITHOUT EXPLAINING OR TEACHING A STUDENT PILOT AND MAKING PEANUTS!!!!!

Few flight schools have actually started to change their policy, you are on salary instead of amount of hours you fly with students.

Make sure you do your research before you come over here to US. I spoke with a former Airline Captain few days ago and he said we are going to see the biggest pilot shortage in Aviation history ever.


Good luck, and you could PM me if you need any help! :ok:

I agree with Amin. I see a serious CFI shortage happening. I have observed more students, mainly Indian/Chinese waiting to start/continue flight training at local schools. Western students are considered easier to teach do to language issues so they seem to have an easier time finding instructors. A couple of friends who are CFI/retired airline pilots say they have more potential students than they can deal with. They used to just have one student at a time just to keep busy. Now they are continually picking up students whose CFI has left in the middle of their training for a regional job. Real issue for the non-us student to have to deal with an instructor switch mid stream. But I see them becoming burnt out and don't think they will continue to accept the workload much longer.

I think the GLOBAL pilot shortage is here to stay...the States and the EU will always cycle with ups and downs...but the global market is amazing. Plenty of folks from the regionals are going to CO, FedEx, UPS, SWA etc.

Just watched the BBC special report "Take Off" on the airline growth in India alone....wow!!!

Plenty of folks from the regionals are going to CO, FedEx, UPS, SWA etc.



Plenty of regional folks going to international carriers as well :ok:

I have many friends (Christians) who are well qualified FAA CFI, CFII and/or MEI. And they speak perfect Queen's English, Melayu, Hindi, Tamil, Mandarin and etc.

The problem is we are neither US Citizen nor US PR! They love to work in US, however, these US flying schools and clubs are unwilling to apply US work permit for them!

George Apostolopoulos, Chief Pilot in Sierra Academy of Aeronautics replied that they will not sponsor work permit for employment. And the main reason is 'troublesome'! They must be thinking that foreign instructors holding FAA instructor rating are terroists!

Shortage of flying instructors in US is an excuse. They are ways to solve! It all depends whether the US flying schools or clubs are willing to sponsor US work permit or not!

Please note: We are do not come from muslim country.

not @<hidden> all an equal ballgame:=
as far as i know, all FAA or JAA lic. pilots can fly anywhere
ive been flying in quite a lot of countries now
meeting with FAA &/or JAA pilot's, in africa, asia you name the country!
but, when it comes to a ICAO lic. holder.........(like me)
your chances to get a job in USA or EU go down the drain
you need to be an EU or USA citizen as a minimum
so far Ireland is the only EU member accepting ICAO lic.
when it will be the time for an ICAO holder to go USA
apply for a job , & just fly out with the validation of his lic.
like everybody else does elsewhere
:cool:

The regionals are struggling to find people because it's a pretty shitty job. Many of us have gone on to other parts of the industry and I'm not just talking about major airlines and foreign carriers like Cathay and Emirates. Regional pilots have discovered that flying for Net Jets or another good fractional beats the hell out of regional flying. Regionals that used to be halfway palatable to fly for now suck mightily. Case in point - SkyWest. I have friends there with 400 hours time away from base and 10 days off thanks to a computerized bidding system that is used to make up for crew shortages. These are not junior people.
Corporate flying is attracting some regional pilots as well. A good corporate job can offer a better lifestyle than most majors.
The VLJ's will offer employment opportunties soon.
The regionals are in trouble. For them there is a pilot shortage. They built a business model based on unrealistic wage assumptions and now they can't find people.

In short there is no pilot shortage in the US. The good jobs have plenty of applicants. Do you hear Southwest complaining about lack of applicants. FedEx and UPS have no trouble recruiting. The only ones with a problem are bottom feeder regionals. Anyone with reasonably decent quals can go elsewhere. Why would someone want to put up with the abuses of working for a regional if they can make more and work less elsewhere. Plus you no longer have the mainline legacy carrier job carrot dangling in front of you. Work rules and compensation at some of the legacy carriers are a joke. They won't retain people like they used to.

NoFlow sums it up admirably... there's little evidence of a genuine shortage ... perusing the major job-listing web-sites... Avianation... Climbto350 etc over a few weeks you'll find that the only employers regularly re-running their ads are the regionals, part 135ers and night-freighters flying the piston prop and small turbo-prop a/c. These guys have had it cushy for so long paying joke money they're reluctant to wake up to the new realities.

Time for the Bean Counters to get the calculators out and then try to explain to the boss that the Lake House may have to wait while.:E

As I have mentioned in my earlier posts and I say it again. The pilot shortage that we are going to face is within regional airlines (First Officers), Part 135 operatores and CFI's. The major is not hurting now, but they will in the future.

When I started flying for 4 years ago we were about 140 students in my private pilot ground class and 18 instructors at the college. Last semester we only had 34 guys in the private pilot ground class and 8 instructor total. As you can see the number has been dercreasing. This is not only my school that had decreaesed numbers, several other schools in US I have been in touch with had the same problem.

The point I'm trying to make here is that not many youngsters In US want to be pilots anymore, due to the lack of moeny they are making and the money they have to spend to be a pilot. AND SUDDENLY WE HAVE THIS BOOOOM IN AVIATION IN US!!!!! THE DEMAND IS INCREASING AND NOT MANY PILOTS!!! If you walk in to a flight school this days the only students you see are Chineese or Indians!!! where are the US guys??:(


I'm aware that the pilot shortage has not reached the major airlines yet,,,but it will!!! Give it few years and you will see!!! Many major airline captains are at the age of 60 so you do the math!!!:)


good luck to you all :ok:

Amin

Lot's of people are getting calls from, CAL, JetBlue, SWA, FedEx and UPS... Not a pilot shortage? I got hired to fly heavy freighters ON THE SPOT this past winter because of expansion and people were moving on to better paying companies.

Every market is expanding...
Fractionals
ACMI Freight
Regionals
LCC's

Not to mention Delta, CAL FedEx and UPS are still hiring...

And...for once...I'm trying to be positive!!!

Can anyone really afford to join the regionals???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A

ThornyCactus,

It is not that the schools/CFI thinks that you are a terrorists because you are not an US citizen. The bigger problem is the limitation of H1B seats and the the eligibility requirements for the same.

1) There are only 65,000 H1Bs every year. And that includes all the IT, Medical, Education folks as well. Every year hundreds of thousands of people apply for work authorisation visa. This year, they are anticipating to reach 65000 application by April 2nd (the visas are awarded in October). So this year USCIS has decided to go with the lottery system. So everyone has an equal chance.

2) The USCIS does not recognise the CFI job as requiring H1b. Remember the school will have to advertise for an American before they can sponsor for visa.

3) All applicants for H1B must be at least undergraduates or hold an equivalent undergraduate doploma.

4) To do all the paper work, schools will have to hire lawyer, advertise in the local news papers and then go through the motions. All this takes about 6 months of preparation and anywhere between 4-10 thousand US$.

Now you tell me, why would a school go through all the hassle and spend all this cash when they can wait for a few months and hope to hire a local CFI!!!!!

To DesiPilot,

Thank you for enlightening me! You have your points right! :D

Since the schools are facing FI shortage, I am just suggesting a way whereby foreign FI can be extremely helpful. There are many advantages for securing foreign FI.

I suppose you knew countries like India’s, China’s and Taiwan’s aviation market are ‘booming’. Within 10 years down the road, there are lots of foreign students seeking aviation jobs. Perhaps, you should understand why the economic of certain countries are so good, the reasons are, they are opening to all money-making ideas, accepting foreign talents into their countries and making their nation more prosperous!

Let’s do a simple mathematical model of how to capture a big market:
100 wealthy Taiwanese students, 100 filthy rich Chinese Mainlanders students (not proficiency in English) as well as 100 rich Indian students are seeking flight training in US, probably the Indians will stay in US for their flight training.

Whereas for the 200 potential Taiwanese and Mainlander Chinese students might seek training elsewhere (out of US) due to language barrier. The bad thing for US is, these students are going to generate handsome revenue to another country!

If the schools really want to make money, the foreign FI (Mandarin speaking) will be a main attraction to these Mandarin speaking students. I am not joking! I met lots of Taiwanese students in US, and they were having a hard time during flying lesson. In fact, I recommended them to other countries where they can get appropriate lesson conducted in both English and Mandarin concurrently.

Yes, I do agree the process of HIB VISA application is troublesome and costly. Now, if the flying schools are willing to sort out the foreign flying instructor issue (right in the beginning) and employ foreign instructors, there is no doubt to get/attract these wealthy rich Chinese speaking students to the flying school!:)

Please note: Students are paying thousands and thousands of money to the school and comparing to a school forking out a few thousands on a H1B VSIA for a foreign instructor and bonding him for 3 to 6 years. The sum of money invested on a foreign FI is just only a tip of the ice-berg!!!

Please do not forget that H1B VISA (just only a few thousands) for foreign FI is a long term investment for the school and these foreign FI will going to attract and taking care of these “super” rich students. If these rich foreign students are happy and well taken care-of in the school, they might even consider investing in the flying school too! Please do not underestimate the financial capabilities of these Chinese, Taiwanese or Indians students!

This is a business tactic which Mr. Bill Clinton presented this idea on his speech years ago! This idea works!

Real Story 1
There was a real life account that I have experienced with a Indian friend. Whose dad was impressed by the teaching of an Indian CFI. So, his dad bought a few Diamond-twins planes for the flying school!

Real Story 2
I have a Thai-Chinese friend working in Australia as a flying instructor. You guess, that particular flying school in Australia is almost filled with rich Thais!

I have lots more stories to share but that’s enough to share with you the above two stories.

Do not blame it on USCIS. It is a lame excuse.:= The final decision is still lies on the school’s management whether will they sponsor H1B VISA or not. They can definitely do it if they want to!

Before I end here, my philosophy for you today is: “small money rolls out, whilst big money coming on your way!”. That is one main philosophy for successful Chinese millionaire today!

Foreign language speaking FIs are not as valuable as they once used to be.

Due to the new ICAO English Language Proficiency Regulations, all ICAO countries are required to have aircrew, ATC and Aviation Operatives that can speak English to a minimum of 'ICAO Level 4 - Operational'.

If you want to have a UK RT licence, you will need to reach 'Level 6 - Expert'. This is the level that China is aiming for at this time and they are making great progress thanks to them taking the initiative and hiring in Aviation English experts for training purposes.

I have been in a position to advise Asian and Indian flight students about this requirement and it is changing how they make their choices for training.

Sponsored cadets are now being tested for this requirement by numerous airlines in Asia and my advice to any of you planning to take either route is to invest three to six months of your time in improving your language skills, otherwise you may find yourself with a shiny new airline transport pilot's licence and not enough English language radiotelephony skills to be employed by anyone.

Also remember that there is an English Language Level requirement for a flight training visa in the US.....check your I-20 form and you will see it. It says something like "Does the student fulfil the English language requirements for this course?".

Your school may put "yes" on the form, but if the Border Patrol guy has any doubts, he'll refer your visa application. Remember, even though you have an M1 in your passport and arrive at the US port of entry - you can still be turned away or reffered to the Immigration Officials at Passport Control if there are any doubts as to your ability to communicate.

My advice - do it correctly. Get proficient in English, you will be better at understanding the 'big picture' at airports and you'll be adding to the safety of yourself and others - and as a pilot who has shared the skies of Florida with groups of sponsored students with deplorable levels of Aviation English, you'll be making life easier for us all.

It's at the critical points where it really counts. For example, an aborted takeoff of a G5 in Florida; foreign student pilot on final is told "Go around" by the tower.

The response. "Ground, go ahead"

Please ladies and gentelman take your time and read this!!! This is from an article I saw today.

PASSENGER PLANES SIT IDLE BECAUSE NO PILOTS WANT TO FLY THEM.


PILOT SHORTAGE is a CAUSE for change.

What is happening in the Airline Industry? There are no pilots to fly those multi-million dollar airplanes. Pilots, including wannabe pilots, are changing careers. They are not choosing a professional flying career because economically it is not feasible.

Airline Transport Pilot Certificates issued from 1996 – 2005 have steadily declined from about 7,500 a year to 4,750 in 2005 an almost 40% decrease in qualified Captains. This is creating a Qualified Airline Pilot shortage, and a few things can happen.

WHAT AIRLINES WILL NOT DO

Pay higher salaries.

As a passenger, I was a little discouraged to know that my Captain, First Officer and Flight attendants (Who are responsible for my life from Point A to Point B) are worth only a few sheckles of the ticket price I paid. That’s right, they are paid $18.00-$20.00/hr. And to make matters worse, they are restricted by the FAA to a maximum of 1,000 of work a year. Many can legally apply for food stamps.

Imagine if air commerce stopped in the US for a week or even two. It did with the unfortunate surroundings of 9/11. However, the demand for air flight also dropped dramatically surrounding that incident. Demand actually dropped lower than supply, putting carriers out of business. Now imagine if Demand remained the same and the supply (meaning there were no pilots to fly those planes) ended for two weeks. Eventually, airlines would pay higher salaries, benefits, etc. in order to take advantage of the increasing demand.

WHAT AIRLINES WILL TRY TO DO

1) The airlines will continue to reduce costs anyway possible. They will spend money on lobbyist groups in Washington D.C. to relax rule making against them. The current Jet Blue debacle begs a “Passenger Bill of Rights.” This has the airlines up in arms. They DO NOT want to be restricted on how to operate. They also do not want to be held accountable for their failures.

In addition, the airlines are currently lobbying for the General Aviation user fee policy. The airlines want to charge the GA pilot thousands of dollars a year to use weather service, fly in the airspace system, land at airports, etc. The airlines are paying the majority now, but that may soon pass to the GA enthusiast.

What does that mean in the future? Fewer pilots for the airlines due to less pilot starts because of prohibitively high costs to entry. This decision by the airlines will only compound their “pilot shortage” problems, cost problems, efficiency problems, management problems, etc.

2) Airlines will reduce minimums. Pilot minimums will become lower and lower until the new SIC will sit right seat in a 250 person passenger jet with only 250 hours of experience. This individual will have been trained to so-called airline standards; however, he/she will have never soloed in ANY plane. It’s being proposed abroad because of the lack of numbers of qualified pilots to fill vacancies.

The Airlines will do this to increase supply of (LOW HOURLY WAGE) accepting pilots. There are a lot more pilots who have under 1,000 hours willing to work for $18-$20/hour vs. 3,000+ hour pilots willing to work for those type of minimum wages.

The airlines are forced to do this, because they do not want to increase wages for their frontline employees, those responsible for the safety of millions of air travelers yearly. They are trying to entice pilots with anything except respectable salaries. Here are just some examples.

American Eagle (American Airline feeder) : Reduced minimums to 850 hours of Total Time (TT) and is now allowing the pilot candidate to choose their domicile. (no cost to Eagle)

SkyWest (United Express, Delta Connection and Midwest feeder): Just lowered their minimums to 850 TT, now pay for training, lodging and supply uniforms

Mesa (United Express, Delta Connection, and US Airways/America West feeder): Lowered their minimums to 500 TT and are offering $5,000 bonus to those pilots with United Express experience.

Republic Airlines (Frontier, American Connection, Continental Express, Delta Connection, United Express and US Airways Express): Offering a $2,500 bonus to new hires after passing Initial Operating Experience (IOE) if one has regional jet experience. They need over 1,000 pilots this year.

Trans States Airlines (American Connection, US Airways and United Express): They have begun finally paying for lodging while at training and have offered a small salary based on 60 hours a month, though training is over 120 hours per month.

Express Jet (Continental feeder): Hiring at 600 TT and rapid upgrades.

3). Airlines will be forced to hire and retain “SUBPAR” Employees. Those that lack the skill, quality, efficiency and know-how of what it takes to be in the airline business. They will force themselves to not “Fire” or “Terminate” employment of those in violation of rules or policies. They can’t afford to eliminate workers, because they are so short staffed, and cannot fill vacancies with current employee policies, wage contracts, etc. This leads to settling for marginal performance which will begin the complete degradation of the airline industry and experience in the United States.

4) Airlines will try to consolidate and/or split. They will do this to
a) Ensure favorable long term contracts. (SkyWest merger with ASA) and to reduce air transport supply in the market place (thus pseudo increasing the number of pilots available to fly the fewer planes). Airlines will then be able to charge higher fees for the increased demand that is present. However, if they are too aggressive too much consolidation could create transportation substitution alternatives. (Bus, train, private planes, etc.)
b) Cut costs. They will try starting new companies in order to bypass labor union strangleholds against a company lowering wages (Go Jets/Trans States and Mesaba/NWA/Compass Airlines to name a few).


OVERSEES COMPETITION

Many oversees airlines are hiring US pilots at far greater wages, they include free housing, no taxes, allowance for a car, etc. It's happening already. And U.S Airlines are NOT reacting; they are not going on the offensive to retain pilots with better wages, QOL, benefits, etc. They are trying to trim fat where fat doesn't exist, change regulations, merge, and do all sorts of other things instead paying an acceptable wage and focus on GROWING the business.

Right now US airlines are trying to keep the business that they have vs. concentrating on setting themselves apart from the others. These oversees airlines are smart. They see this and are taking advantage of an industry that is broken. This could lead to economic disruption in the US.

It’s ironic. US companies have been outsourcing cheap labor in foreign markets for decades; now these foreign markets are employing our skilled labor at far greater compensation than can be obtained in the United States.


WHAT PILOTS MAY, WILL or SHOULD DO

Leave the Industry or Country. Massive pilot fleeing helps to reduce supply of those able to operate planes. Captains, both Junior and Senior will flee to where their time invested will provide them with a greater dollar reward and better QOL. As Captains flee, FO’s will welcome the short term increase in salary until they feel compelled to leave as well. It’s happening already in the industry. If the economies of scale are greater and the opportunity cost is lower for NOT being a pilot, an outflow will happen causing massive dollars to be lost by airlines not being able to provide enough supply for demand. The Pilot’s unwillingness to settle for poverty wage will eventually force airlines to 1) Pay more or 2) Reduce qualifications or 3) Go out of business.

Imagine if airlines paid $55/hr to a 1st year FO, $70 for his/her 2nd year, etc. You would get more qualified, skilled and seasoned pilots. Pilots might consider holding out to work for a certain airline, and may even choose to stay with a company long term, thus reducing continuous training costs for the airlines and maximizing employee profitability.


WHAT THE PUBLIC WILL DO

The public will continue to fly. The public stops flying when cost becomes to probative or when SAFETY is compromised (like 9/11). Should any of these two scenarios happen, the public will choose to fly less, consider alternative transportation methods or not fly at all. When this happens the U.S.A will take a severe hit to economic growth. The U.S relies on the transportation industry to move goods and services that create jobs which in turn keeps the economy rolling along. If and when that stops, something has to start it rolling again. (Pilots Wanted signs will appear)

WHAT THE U.S GOVT. WILL DO
If the airlines fail to entice pilots to work through higher salaries, QOL, benefits, pensions etc., you can bet that the govt. will mandate to airlines to provide MINIMUM salaries for pilots OR they will provide supplemental assistance (subsidies) to companies or pilot groups in order restore transportation and promote the “economic need, welfare and desire” for the pilot/individual to choose a career in aviation.

1) The government has already guaranteed airline pensions. They bailed out the airlines because the airlines are incapable to bail themselves out.

2) The airline lobby group is so strong that they just relaxed the pilot age requirement from 60 to 65. Here is a very current real time example of how Govt. is getting involved today. This will offset the pilot shortage by about 3,800 over the next 5 years. Just a small amount, but enough to cause a slight worry for all on how strong the airline lobby is.

3) In addition, the FAA needs to hire over 15,000 controllers during the next 8-10 years. The starting salary for new controllers is greater than those of airline pilots and the benefits package is far superior to any airline. For many, a choice in controlling may outweigh what the choice of being a pilot. http://www.thetracon.com/atcjobs.htm (http://www.thetracon.com/atcjobs.htm)


WHAT THE NEWS MEDIA COULD DO
The news media might do well spending more time talking about potential outcomes of a “Pilot shortage” and “Low Wages” as well as the “Severe Safety Concerns” of these Low Time pilots with extremely new decision making skills.

Many don't know that their "newbie" First Officer might be an 850 hr Total Time 50 hr Multi-engine pilot, who only first saw the technologically advanced Jet Cockpit Glass display only 3 weeks prior and whose longest x-ctry trip was 250 nm in a Cessna 172. Imagine, if they knew this and demanded that qualifications were higher for airline pilots.

In addition, the public assumes pilots are well paid. They don't know that many pilots NEED to have part-time jobs to supplement their income. The public doesn’t know that many pilots are too tired to fly because they have to work extra jobs. The public doesn’t know they are at risk.


Pilots and the Airlines know what conditions are currently like, and how those conditions affect each. However, the public and government don’t know or care at this point, because everything is moving along smoothly. That is because it isn’t an issue for them now. It is only an issue when it affects them OR when they know it MIGHT affect them. We now have the recent Jet Blue debacle showcased by the media. The public (consumer) is now demanding change.

Am I being overly simplistic in suggesting a relatively straightforward solution to this dilema... at least in part ?

Put the bl**dy fares up !

Why should people expect to go coast to coast or trans-atlantic for a few hundred dollars... ? raise the cost of a ticket... fewer people will fly, fewer costs to the airlines (inc fewer pilots) ... better standards of service and comfort to those who do fly... less hassle at check-in and security gates, better salaries for airline staff ( inc pilots ) better standards of safety...

Let the public pay for what it wants.. who knows... flying as a passenger might even become pleasurable again. In the terminal I might feel less like I've become lost in a trailer park and on the aircraft I might not feel as though I've mistakenly boarded a greyhound bus.

To Farrell,

My previous message was implying that foreign students are comfortable and looking forward to train with instructors that have the same naïve language as theirs.

I have a Mainlander Chinese friend who scored ‘A1’ for his General Paper in GCE ‘A’ Level. He is so used to Mandarin and he even chosen a flying school in Australia that has a Mandarin speaking instructor! Lots of his Mainlander Chinese cohorts were there too! Simply because the selling point of the school is using a Mandarin speaking instructor to help them in their flying lesson.

Yes, I agree with you that English proficiency is a must in aviation especially flying. But…who cares!

There are many aviators flying in India are using Hindi, flying in Indonesia using Bahasa Indonesian, flying in China using Mandarin! Who really cares! If you can demonstrate the safety of flying, the authority doesn’t going to jump on you! In fact, if you speak perfect English and showing-off your power in your English language during communication in the air, you will be most unwelcomed and you are causing a big stir in the control tower and flyers in these countries!

I met a few Taiwanese guys who speak ‘lousy’ English and could have some problems in understanding. You know what? The airlines in Taiwan absorbed them! Not because of their inproficiency in English!

Let me gives you a case-study
Put yourself in the shoe as a basic flyer learning to fly. Supposedly, a Russian and an American flying instructor (both are equally good in teaching, except the Russian’s English is not on par with you) for you to choose, which one will you take?

If the Mainlander Chinese and Taiwanese are able to get their professional licence, and airlines are accepting them, then who cares?! These rich chaps have their right to choose their own flying instructor, afterall they are paying lots of money!

The world is realistic and I have been traveling everywhere.

No problem. They are working on bringing them in from South of the border.

"My previous message was implying that foreign students are comfortable and looking forward to train with instructors that have the same naïve language as theirs."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
If there are so many of the foreign students that need flight training, and it can best be done by foreigners as well, WHY DON'T THEY SET UP FLIGHT TRAINING SCHOOLS IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES???????

There's nothing magical about US airspace. Your reasons are just excuses to get the foot into the door of the US.

If anyone wants to get here easily, they can spit at our laws and run across the virtually unguarded southern border millions of Mexicans do every year.

Roadtrip,

Let me see if I can inform a Boeing 747-200 :suspect: Captain why we have so many foreign student in US. The first questin you should ask yourself is why the US government Issue them student visas to come here to US???

First of all countries such as India, China, Malysia, etc.. have not the resources that US have for flight training such as airplanes, instructors and other things you need to get your license. The cost of flight training is MUCH cheaper and MUCH MUCH easyer compared to other counties. You can pretty much get your commercial+IR+ME in 9-10 months in US with a cost about 30 to 40ks, maybe even chaeper. Once they are done these students go home and convert their license and get picked up by airlines flying Airbus 320, ATR, or Boeing 737.

So, have you figured out why your government issue them a student visa?? If not, let me tell you it is all about money. These students come to US and spend 30 to 40k to US flight schools, they also pay US government significant amount of money for their visa process, and once they are here in US they have to pay TSA (transpotation Security Administration) 130 US dollar before starting their training. So you do the math how much money your government is making to send these guys over here. And don't forgett the schools have to pay TAX too :D.

AND MOST OF THEM USUALLY GO BACK HOME TO FLY AIRBUS OR BOEING,,NO NO THEY DON'T WANT TO STAY HERE. A shiny airbus is waiting for them.

I hope this info change your thoughts about us international students that seeks training in USA.

Good Luck :ok:

One aspect of this thread was talking about allowing foreign flight instructors work permits in the US. There's nothing complicated or special about setting up a flight school. Maybe governmental regulations in the home countries make it extra hard, but that's a local issue. If the need is so great in these countries, why don't their governments keep the training money in their own country and encourage flight schools to open up there.
Getting light airplanes and maintaining them isn't hard. Setting up a classroom and syllabus isn't expensive or difficult. For primary training, you don't need expensive or difficult-to-maintain simulators.
It seems to me that an Indian or Malaysian, or even Aussie company could set up a great flight school with not much investment and make a good profit by attracting south Asian students and teach in their native language, and be able to charge less than the relatively high cost of living and learning in the US.
I know a lot of Brit students like to train in Florida, but I think that's because flight training in the UK is pretty darn expensive, the weather is less likely to cause delays in training, and Florida is a plane ride away. Also with the extreme weakness of the dollar, the US is cheap for Europeans.

The FAA Age 65 rule will take at least two years to enact, in the mean time experienced Captains go overseas or to WalMart. The ones who are forced overseas are bound to lower the bar on wages once more. After all what jobs are there in the USA for a sixty year old?

One aspect of this thread was talking about allowing foreign flight instructors work permits in the US. There's nothing complicated or special about setting up a flight school. Maybe governmental regulations in the home countries make it extra hard, but that's a local issue. If the need is so great in these countries, why don't their governments keep the training money in their own country and encourage flight schools to open up there.
Getting light airplanes and maintaining them isn't hard. Setting up a classroom and syllabus isn't expensive or difficult. For primary training, you don't need expensive or difficult-to-maintain simulators.
It seems to me that an Indian or Malaysian, or even Aussie company could set up a great flight school with not much investment and make a good profit by attracting south Asian students and teach in their native language, and be able to charge less than the relatively high cost of living and learning in the US.
I know a lot of Brit students like to train in Florida, but I think that's because flight training in the UK is pretty darn expensive, the weather is less likely to cause delays in training, and Florida is a plane ride away. Also with the extreme weakness of the dollar, the US is cheap for Europeans.

ROADTRIP,

Since you are here on the PPRuNe I am assuming that you are a pilot. I am also assuming that you have never traveled to this side of the world.

It is not as easy as it sounds to setup a flight school here in the Eastern States. First of all, we will have to import planes (guess where most of the training aircrafts are made). Secondly, we need airfields to fly those planes. Do you know that there are more airfields in the state of FL than entire India. Now an infrastructure like this cannot be setup over night. Yes, the government is working on it but it will take years. Third, the fuel is a lot more expensive here than in State, Oz or even South Africa. Another problem that we face here is what you are facing in USA. Why would someone want to work as a FI when he/she can fly a brand new shiny aircraft (where they do not have to yell "clear prop" and chances are that they can walk under the wing and need ladder to climb in the aircraft. This kind of flying any day beats flying C152, at least for work).

Not all the students come to USA to live there and stay there. There are easier ways to come to States than trying to get an M1 visa for flight training (visa counselors still remember 9-11).

Yes, you are right, there a lot of Brits training in FL. But there are also people from India, China, Japan, Scandinavian countries and southern EU States training in FL. There is a very good reason why FL is called the flight training capital of the world.

These students when they come to States, not only they spend money in the flight school, they also spend money in local business'. We saw the impact of no flight training after 9-11. Lots of local business' were hurting because the foreigners had stopped coming to States. You think Disney can survive if only Americans were going there?

Anyway, I do miss the days when we could fly over the Hudson and work on the lady.

Happy Flying :)

Yes, I fly in that area of the world.
So, India has no problem setting up new airlines, so much so that it needs to import ex-pat pilots and train its own nationals and outsourcing highly technical jobs from the US market, yet it is incapable of setting-up and running some flight schools???
I suppose my understanding of this must be as a result of some cultural bias on my part.
Don't get me wrong, if foreign students from countries that are not hostile in government or national sentiment towards us want to come here to learn, that's fine . . . as long as they go back to their home countries and not try and stay here and work.

No shortage of pilots here.. only a shortage of qualified pilots who will work for $19/flight hour... It's sort of like legal prostitution without the pay.. The mins are dropping to below 500hrs with some carriers. This is because most people won't fly for that low of pay...

Roadtrip,

It is not the school that is the problem. I have extensive experience in flight school business. It is infrastructure and airports in India. The students will have to go for cross countries, or practice ILS approaches for their IR training. I didnt realise how luck we were in USA until I came back to India. I fly for an airline and we still shoot full VOR approaches in non-radar environment. If you are a student pilot and practicing landings and an airliner approaches you would have to call it a day.

Most (cant say all, that is the counselers job) student pilots will come back to India. When you are only 18-20 years old and you can make $3500 per month and are treated like a king why wont you come back. I dont think they want to stay back in the states to pick oranges or work at gas stations or motels making $6 per hour. So you dont have to worry about people staying back. It is a different story if someone who wants to desperatily move to USA uses aviation to get in the States. But thats where TSA, and US embassy expertise comes in.

There are so many better opportunities for foreign pilots outside of the US.. I don't understand why you would want to fly here. I'm guessing to build an experience, but it's still not a great place in terms of pay for a starting pilot.

A pilot from England joined the Army Guard over here and said that he had worked as a Blackhawk Crew Chief, then went to NW Airlink as FO. I asked him about the lifestyle with a lower US CRJ First Officer salary compared to a higher salary in England with the much higher taxes. His company sent some senior pilots to Embry Riddle in a recruitment campaign. I spoke with them.
The Englishman told me that you can survive better in the US, at least in a lower cost region such as a smaller city in the south, because of the much lower taxes and cost of living. This surprised me.

CruiseClimb: How about the problem of some regional airline new-hires who have less than the minimum PIC hours, who theoretically will never be able to upgrade to Captain? The core problem, based upon what a Check Airman told me, with attracting experienced pilots is that some regionals pay nothing during training-not even per diem for meals etc. They expect the applicant to live with Mom and Dad, or have a girlfriend supply food, hotel and gasoline money. Wait until they hear about the salary, whereby you will qualify for foodstamps.

The company may hire you, but whether you have enough instrument experience to successfully finish training, makes no difference at all to the company :cool: . They want you as cheaply as possible-nothing else. And it works every week.

A furloughed airline guy working as Instructor at a regional was introduced to me and described a common, but most unfortunate situation. He told me that the Gulfstream program gladly took a guy's money and let him later fly the B-1900. This came as a cruel surprise when he was a new-hire at another company: the lack of actual instrument flying crippled his chances to finish CRJ training.

PIC hours? Will some new-hires be forced to remain forever in the right seat?
The solution is that the FAA will soon, or has already lowered the PIC hour requirement to enable First Officers to later upgrade to Captain after 2500 hours or more. Maybe 10 SIC hours equal 1 hour of PIC?

PS: This is May 28. That company's Chief Pilot reportedly quit recently over this PIC/SIC concept.

What's happening is pilots are coming in at 500 hrs, but must sit in the right seat until they meet that company's mins for Captain. This is usually 3,000-3,500 hrs in an RJ, lower in a turboprop. Other pilots who meet the mins are upgraded past them, but have lower seniority numbers. As soon as the junior pilot has the time to upgrade, he is automatically senior to the pilot who may have been a captain years ahead of him. many of these junior pilots have never seen icing or turbulance until they're flying a jet with 50 passengers in back.

Ok it really has happend!!! Trans State Airlines announced today their new minimums 250tt/25me. So pretty much a Commercial license with an multi add on it.

http://www.pilotjobs.com/default.las...ine&airline=27

check it out.

The demand can not keep up with the supply.

:ok:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/busine...,3146572.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0702040344feb04,0,3146572.story)

Thorny,

When you arrive at the airlines and are flying international routes, you will understand the absolute necessity of a common aviation language. Situational awareness, especially in the airport traffic area, is greatly reduced when the pilots are not speaking the same language. Improper communications will kill people just as fast, if not faster, than poor piloting skills.

As far as a shortage of Instructors goes. Only the largest flight schools in the US are suffering a shortage. Most pilots are not willing to move across the country for an instructing job. It just doesn't make economic sense. So when a large school taps out the local market, it is hard for them to find instructors. Instructors don't generate huge income for a flight school so it is usually not worth their while to pay immigration costs.

Good luck!

The airline industry is a cyclical beast. There are plenty of pilots out there to fill the jobs available. When the major airlines were booming, the regionals weren't. Now the big guys are shrinking and the regionals are growing. The minimums go down when the demand rises and go up when it falls. When you start seeing pay going up, then you'll know there is a shortage. :) I can tell you this much for sure. My company hired several classes of pilots recently and every one of them had a college degree, three letters of recommendation from within the company, and 4000+ plus hours TT. They all had turbine experience and most were type rated in something, or prior military pilots. Three of them were sons or daughters of pilots working for the company. It doesn't sound like much of a shortage to me.

Cheers

Acquiring and maintaining a light airplane overseas IS in fact expensive, but that in itself is not the big problem. The problem is that the big airline growth is mostly occurring in developing countries where only a select few can afford to learn to fly. There just aren't enough potential candidates yet to support any kind of big training operation in those countries. Language skills come into play as well. Not enough English speaking people.

There is no FAA PIC minimum to upgrade from F/O to Captain. If you can do the job, what difference does it make anyway. Like other posters have pointed out, the Europeans have been putting 250 hour pilots in the right seat of 737's and A320's for years. It's not a give away though. You still have to get through the training.

Hi,

Greetings from ex CFI teaching at GIF!

Are you still in the US? or back home? I was looking at your site but my emails didn't get to you. Right now, I am in China trying to do some instruction and we need a lot of patience here.
take care,

Flytoo

To AQflyer,

Yup..., I have nothing to say.

My old company just lowered the mins to Commercial, Multi Instrument. I really feel for some of the captains there now. Thats going to be an interesting environment to fly in.

A furloughed airline guy working as Instructor at a regional was introduced to me and described a common, but most unfortunate situation. He told me that the Gulfstream program gladly took a guy's money and let him later fly the B-1900. This came as a cruel surprise when he was a new-hire at another company: the lack of actual instrument flying crippled his chances to finish CRJ training.


His initials aren't EF, are they?

what kinda bone head doesn't have instrument skills? it isn't the airline's fault the student has weak instrument skills...he wasn't properly trained in flight school and the examiner that passed him didn't do their job properly.

FlyBoyIke:

It has been about three years ago, and I have no idea who the poor guy was. The IP's background was supposedly with Delta. All he said was that the guy had trouble with instrument flying, or maybe he meant performing them in a much faster plane, the guys first jet.
I can easily sympathize, knowing that it is the first FMC c0ckpit for many, rigid standardization for some, and many new types of procedures and demanding, hectic airport environments. Remember, these planes have replaced most DC-9s, F-100s and 737s, even many 727 city pairs. The twin-engine jets went everywhere east of the Rockie Mountains (MIA, HOU, STL, IAH, ATL, MKE, ORD, MDW, BOS, LGA, JFK, DCA...even MSO and
Bozeman). Now, many new FOs flying to these same cities, and many more, have maybe 500 hours total, instead of the 3,000-5,000 which all of us had, with a few exceptions for those who flew F-4s etc. Considering all the extra work (despite fewer legs many days) compared to a BE-1900, SD-360 or SF-340, how about the right-seat pay, counting inflation?

Recruiting pilots with much more than 300 hours for one of our primary regional affiliates is very difficult because the company pays nothing until one flies the CRJ on the line for about two weeks-but they don't pay any expenses during training, no per diem, unless changes have taken place.
Corporate greed at its finest. :E

Read about the Mesaba's pilots' terrible situation last year. Pilots qualifying for food stamps were asked to pay for a chunk of their medical/dental insurance and also take a pay cut!

It must be bad enough paying the many deductibles even when the company makes payments for the policies...don't at least some have a wife or a little kid with a medical condition?

Noted this on an interview sheet for a US regional:

"will receive a $500.00 longevity bonus to be paid out to each student that successfully graduates from the training program, and completes six months of continuous employment"

Six months qualifies one for a longevity bonus? Sounds like they are having a few retention problems. The sheet I saw indicated 400TT as a minimum, CRJ FO.

The main question now is whether any of the regionals pay per diem or hotel expenses during training, or a tiny salary, in order to better recruit applicants?
One guy on the employee bus a few days ago said that some regional now pays you a salary during training.

Samusi01:
A few days ago another pilot told me that Mesa Airlines recently had an entire class of "no-shows" -- nobody came to class. Maybe only three or four had been hired? If many more were expected, that would be quite significant.

They have lost many pilots who were on the line. A friend worked there many years ago on the 1900 and went to Berlin for CRJ training.
Even back then, they paid Beech pilots at least 25% less than the other companies paid, and transferred pilots often base to base, in order to remain in a Captain's seat.

PS: When many of us trained on the Bandit and Shorts 330/360 in '83-'85, we might have been paid per diem during training. We found roommates in whichever apartments.

Hadn't heard about the Mesa class, but I've got a friend who started with them recently. I'll have to ask him if he heard anything. The regional I referenced is Pinnacle... they are taking care of hotels and all (my understanding) and paying a per diem during training. Two of the guys here at work headed off there and other than being in a rough section of Memphis, all they've said is that sims are backed up and Pinnacle was making noises about shipping them to Montreal or Berlin for CRJ training. Skywest and Horizon may pay for training... I'll have to check with some folks I know over at Mesaba. Flight out this morning had a former co-worker jumping, and he said starting is around $25/hr for his present employer - American Eagle - but I didn't ask about per diem or other pay during training.

I will not fly on a commuter airline in the US. Do you really want to be sitting fat dumb and not happy in the back of a jungle jet while a no time fo just fills the seat while a low time Captian fly solo? (Comair crash?)
There will not be a pilot shortage if the wages were better than a fry cook at McDonalds.
Wages will not go up till folks stop taking the jobs.
Do you really want to trust your life to a low time pilot ?
This "plot shortage" is going to lead to Major problems down the road.
The good news I've made more money last month by having to go around at LAX. Rj wanted to turn around on the rwy and taxi back to the taxiway he over shot..... 12,000lbs of fuel and a lot of noise later...(oh well i get paid by the minute.) Hopfully seeing a 747 going missed low ,up close and personal woke him up.
Next week rj was told 180kts till the marker, they slowed to Vref early without saying anything..... Kind of scewed up the spacing a tad.
Well i guess the only fix is better training, like that is really going to happen,
WD

Right on, Whaledog! Can I buy you a martini?

Guess we'd need to be careful if we offer to bring any new rj fo's out as i don't think they'd be over 21 years old. :=

Thank you for the kind offer.

There is no shortage of pilots in the United States, I was told by three different companies today that I was over qualified. One told me that if he hired me, he expected to have to pay me to fly while there are plenty of kids around that would do it for little or nothing. and he liked paying little or nothing. Oh well I guess there is a shortage after all.

I will not fly on a commuter airline in the US. Do you really want to be sitting fat dumb and not happy in the back of a jungle jet while a no time fo just fills the seat while a low time Captian fly solo? (Comair crash?)



Not that I disagree with the general sentiment of your post, but, for the record, both pilots in the Comair crash were plenty high-time, as were the pilots in the Pinnacle incident. That may be because a low-time guy (like me, for instance) is always double and triple checking himself, while the higher-time guy may well become more complacent.

Just a thought.

John gets hired as a low time f/o. The captains he flies with were hired as low time f/o's, like John is. In 2 years John becomes a cap'n. He's trained under the tutelage of low time, inexperienced pilots.
I would look at him as a self-taught pilot. His low time f/o's even more so.

Most Scarey!

Oh how I yearn for the glory days of aviation when people were born with experience.

flyboyike
Oh how I yearn for the glory days of aviation when people were born with experience.

A facile response.... of course nobody is born with experience... but hat experience should be gained hard time without putting the lives of paying passengers at risk. Give me an FO who's been flying night-freight out of vermont through a couple of winters on a Bandit anytime over some classroom qualified wanabee when things are going pearshaped on a crappy night.

A facile response.... of course nobody is born with experience... but hat experience should be gained hard time without putting the lives of paying passengers at risk. Give me an FO who's been flying night-freight out of vermont through a couple of winters on a Bandit anytime over some classroom qualified wanabee when things are going pearshaped on a crappy night.


I understand where you're coming from, but let's try to be entirely honest here: how much does that Bandit really have in common with a CRJ, besides that both are airplanes? How much does night single-pilot work have in common with a 121 crew environment? How much does freight flying in Vermont (or South Dakota, or Arkansas, or insert your favorite hell-hole here) really have in common with flying a transport aircraft out of place like JFK or BOS or DCA?

I came to the airline after over a year of flying a turboprop, and what I struggled with was getting over the whole single-pilot mentality. The airplane wasn't the problem, the systems were no big deal. Getting used to being part of a crew was. Now imagine if I had 5,000 hours in the Bandit or a King Air doing all that freight flying. I submit to you the transition would have been even harder, not easier.

There is experience and then there's relevant experience. There is a reason why JAL, Lufthansa, Singapore, and many other big-time carriers pick up people with 200-250TT. It's to teach them the airline way from the outset. That way they are not reverting back to the Bandit and night freight while in the right seat of a 744. And those carriers have an exemplary safety record. That tells me that not all low-time pilots are created equal.

Besides, I fully expect to get to 10,000 (or whatever) hours and have fossils tell me that they didn't become a "real pilot" until their 14,546.3rd (or whatever) hour. In this business there never seems to be a shortage of people who get off by belittling others, with or without reason. Regrettable, I think.

Very well put flyboyike.
Hours mean a lot but not everything;)

I've flown with 15,000hr pilots who performed pathatically on a regular basis for various reasons and with 500hr pilots who performed very well on a regular basis. So please save your 'flight time = experience' b.s. for someone who doesn't have thousands of hours and doesn't know there are sub-standard pilots out there with thousands of hours of flight time who can't fly worth a crap. The accident files are littered with high time but low experience pilots who looked very competent on paper and flew perfectly good airliners into the ground with hundreds of pax onboard. Experience is a matter of knowledge & ability, time alone only gives you a 'chance' to learn and improve yourself. Some choose not to put in the effort and learn next to nothing after all those thousands of hours of flying and their low performance level shows it... I see it all the time. Read pilot error accident reports and look at the high flight times of the pilots involved. Then ask yourself if they had a high experience level matching their high flight time.

Also a freight pilot flying Bandits or the like for a shady outfit which does not keep their equipment up to standards and expects it's pilots to break many regulations on a regular basis (pretty much ALL small plane freight outfits in the US), who has knowingly broken the rules to the satisfaction of his/her employer sinking below standards to keep his/her job is hardly the professional aviator I would hire. I don't care what kind of crap he/she has flown thru and lived. Those initial attitudes and habits are hard to get rid of. On the other hand a low time aviator who has been trained to perform to high standards with dicipline to adhere to SOPs and regulations is someone I would trust with my aircraft. I don't have to untrain a lot of bad habits and attitudes which are inherently present in the typical freight pilot who has the initial traits of a rougue pilot imprinted in his/her character as a basis of his/her 'experience'.

Amount of time is not a good indicator of 'experience level', simply becuase some people are lazy idiots. And once a lazy idiot, always a lazy idiot.

Cheers

I will not fly on a commuter airline in the US. Do you really want to be sitting fat dumb and not happy in the back of a jungle jet while a no time fo just fills the seat while a low time Captian fly solo? (Comair crash?)
There will not be a pilot shortage if the wages were better than a fry cook at McDonalds.
Wages will not go up till folks stop taking the jobs.
Do you really want to trust your life to a low time pilot ?
This "plot shortage" is going to lead to Major problems down the road.
The good news I've made more money last month by having to go around at LAX. Rj wanted to turn around on the rwy and taxi back to the taxiway he over shot..... 12,000lbs of fuel and a lot of noise later...(oh well i get paid by the minute.) Hopfully seeing a 747 going missed low ,up close and personal woke him up.
Next week rj was told 180kts till the marker, they slowed to Vref early without saying anything..... Kind of scewed up the spacing a tad.
Well i guess the only fix is better training, like that is really going to happen,
WD
Then how about the US airline heavy that was lined up with 25R although they were cleared for VISUAL 24R two weeks ago at LAX. Not only they had to go around themselves, they made a 737 go around as well due to a TCAS RA and we were right behind that 737 watching this whole thing listening to ATC calling them repeatedly. I met the morons on the crew bus later, they were mistakenly on ground freq already while on final and only went around becuase they saw an RJ in position and holding. They didn't have a clue it was the wrong runway until then. Both high time with thousands of hours to go along with their white hair. What's their excuse??? Calculate the fuel burn for that one. I would not trust my life with these two morons, I don't care how many thousands of hours they have.

Cheers

If there is this shortage of pilots in the US, what are the chances of a British person with FAA tickets getting a job in the US - even for a year or two?

>>>Oh how I yearn for the glory days of aviation when people were born with experience.<<<

I yearn for the days when experience was valued.

The problem with a certain number of low time pilots in the United States is not that they are low time, but that they don’t value experience. This seems to be the result of being told during their training in the pilot puppy mills that “good training” is more important than experience. Then, when they start to fly for a living, they are paired with Captains with only a couple of years in the real world.

Compare this to a European ab-initio program where the new FO clearly understands that he has a lot to learn, is expected to work diligently at learning it, and is paired with well seasoned Captains. Same with the United States in the late 60’s when low time pilots were being hired.

What we have in the United States is a profit based training system that tries to increase its perceived value by denigrating the importance of experience. This attitude then flows into their trainees and airline management.

JulianStorey wrote:
"If there is this shortage of pilots in the US, what are the chances of a British person with FAA tickets getting a job in the US - even for a year or two?"

Better than an American with a current CAA/JAR ATPL and type rating without a "Right to live and work in the EU" passport. A bit lopsided don't you think?

RDG

I yearn for the days when experience was valued.



I value experience very much. What I don't value is people waving their logbooks in my face as conclusive proof that their flatulence has no odor.

For the record, I worked very diligently throughout my training and am fully aware that, as Master Yoda would put it, much to learn I still have.

742 and HeavyWrenchFlyer posted some thought-provoking comments.
A Line Check Airmen at this crewbase described the possibility that some future pilot new-hires might have mostly glass-c0ckpit experience. I hope I'm not quickly paired with any such new-hires (maybe next year?) unless they received adequate legs during IOE. One of our guys jumpseated recently to TYS and it was quite an eye-opener for him. The plane has some glass but no autothrottles. He told us that he was very relieved when the Captain finally took the controls, perhaps having been reluctant at first to embarass the new FO in front of an off-line guy on the jumpseat.

Can they learn to fly an old jet, with no 'glass' automation? There are many (727s) at Fedex also. Southwest pilots are supposedly trained to not use LNAV and VNAV. Their glass displays in the SWA Boeing 737-800 were designed by Boeing to indicate airspeed, VSI etc as if on round gauges.

Might one underlying problem, discussed in various ways on this thread, be caused partly because of many young pilots' reliance on automation for almost the entire flight? It might be most awkward to go on a "steam-gauge" jet from ORD to LGA or ATL-DTW, forced to navigate with a Jepp Hi Chart and the DYLYN Arrival to EWR with weather enroute. Or fly a procedure turn at Kalispell or Missoula, MT on a pitch black night.

ummm, reminds me something about a story where a UAL captain told his F/O during the initial approach (visual) to hand fly the airplane and the F/O refused to. Don't remember any other details tho.

'AND IT WOULD BE NICE TO FLY ONCE WITHOUT EXPLAINING OR TEACHING A STUDENT PILOT AND MAKING PEANUTS!!!!!"

Well thankfully some one hung around and taught your ungratefull behind
how to fly and this is how you pay back the industry!! if i remember correctly you were a student pilot not too long ago, now because you have a paltry 800hrs you are the (edited for language) I will not want you in a cock pit with me with this kind of attitude

742 probably has the most valid criticism of the pilot training situation in the U.S. that I've seen here. That said, the implication that U.S. pilots aren't as willing to work and learn as our European ab-initio bretheren is a bit harsh. There are a substantial number of trainees who believe they are far more qualified than they actually are, but most of them receive a reality check when they hit the line. Most low-time U.S. airline pilots are acutely aware of how much we have to learn, and of the incredible responsibility we have flying passengers. I feel that the key difference here is exactly what is expected of low time pilots here versus in Europe. Graduates of ab-initio programs in Europe are usually very technically qualified (if not yet in posession of flawless stick-and-rudder skills), and they are not expected to perform to the same standard as a fully qualified and experienced FO. They are properly trained, they are supported, and they are compensated. In America, low-time regional FOs receive the same standard training as everyone else, and we are expected to perform to the same standard as everyone else on the line at whatever regional we find ourselves in. In most cases, we are working harder for far less money than more experienced FOs at the major airlines. If that's not a recipe for a young pilot with a bad attitude, I don't know what is.

It's no secret that the life of a U.S. regional pilot is hard. If there are attitude problems (and there are), I would sooner blame the environment in which we train and work than accuse pilots of an unfounded sense of entitlement. I'm not entirely happy with the training new pilots receive in the transition from general aviation to the airlines, but most of us simply work that much harder in order to catch up. The alternative is to abandon the notion of an airline career, which is something I'm not willing to do at this point.

ThePotato232: Well-put.

One benefit which many airline pilots had in the late 60s and 70s was the fact that many were hired, whether with a GA background, or from a T-38, C-123 etc, into a transport aircraft which had either reciprocating or turboprop engines. All pilots in this group flew around at lower altitudes and mostly in lower-performance airliners, no matter what their background.

A very large number were hired as FO on the F-27/227, the Convair
600/640/580 or the Martin-404. Some of these were not very high performance. I've jumpseated in a few of them. Anyway, they flew into many small airports with no control tower, and into some busy larger airports, such
as Las Vegas, Atlanta, Minneapolis and Chicago, to name a few, and in quickly changing weather.


Their companies then received either DC-9s or 737s, allowing them at a fairly young age to then quite often fly longer legs into LAX, SEA, ORD, MSP, LGA etc. Many of these became familiar with all-weather airline ops years before they first streaked in their first jet past the airport at 250 knots, wondering when to slow down. They learned quickly whether there was a tight 'coffin corner' at high altitude, or not (i.e. DC-9), and after a while, whether staggering to the highest possible altitude at climb power on a hot day (the same altitudes as the turbulence in storm overhangs/'blow-off') saved much fuel in a heavily-loaded plane after an interesting reduced-flap takeoff while wallowing into the air with EGTs near the top of the yellow arc (over 500*C.).

As for the pay, there is probably less purchasing power now, factoring inflation into it, on a CRJ FO's $1600/ month salary, than with first year pay in the right seat of a DC-9 or B-737 in 1985 (i.e. $1400/month, before taxes). :hmm: But this was only the bad first year pay. It increased, by contract, a good bit in the second, then third years etc.
Sadly, the new DC-9 or 737 is a CRJ or EMB-170. I doubt that the purchasing power of an FO's salary on the CRJ, even in the EMB-170's FO seat would ever begin to equate to what his predecessors' FO pay produced from about '85-2003.

And these jets' salaries have mostly replaced the much higher purchasing power (inflation included) which historically was fairly common, for flying aircraft on the exact same city pairs. Most of these city pairs, whether DTW-ATL, ATL-VPS, ORD-MBS, MSP-FAR, MEM-PHL, DFW-SHV, HOU-BTR, were all connected non-stop for many years by either a DC-9 dash 10, a 30, a B-737 200 or a Fokker 100 etc. Many younger pilots are not aware of what went before them. Upper Mgmts have often exploited this lack of awareness, in so many ways.

The promises of the fairly typical airline executives, that "for less money on your first jet, you can upgrade to jet Captain much sooner", will continue to depress, and even lower the buying power of the younger pilots' salaries. It is a very unfortunate trend. Far fewer major airline jobs are now available, and almost all of the best US jobs regarding salaries etc lure pilots to fly cargo, instead of passengers. Some are now told during the interview at a start-up carrier, they will earn about $99/hour on the EMB-170 etc. But they have no written contract (and worse, no union-yet).

One guy told me that he is considering giving up years on the CRJ to join such an outfit with no seniority, all on corporate promises. It depresses me to think about the bait and switch tactics so common in this industry, designed to lure pilots into an operation which will make dire threats as their careers become so abused that they desperately need a union, while fearing, as a result, the transfer of their planes to another carrier under the same codeshare, whether at Mesa, Mesaba, etc.
The pervasive corruption, "alleged" ;) insider-trading, total lack of integrity and half-truths and lies in this business never stop. Some companies' typical operating style is to break any and all promises, whether day-off guarantees, contract rest/duty rules (with the FAA's collaboration) and numerous basic FARs, or any combination of the above. One former airline stock-owner reportedly has a ship in the Med. which is at least 400 feet long. He and his partner tried to secretly sell off one of the lucrative Pacific routes and pocket the cash in the 90s, as that US airline struggled with an enormous debt load, due to the type of financing used to purchase the airline.


To quote one of our 64 year-old ROPEs ('retired old pilot FE', who is a former Eastern pilot) with whom I chatted last week,"There will never be a shortage of scumbag executives to work in this industry."

The best of luck out there to all you young pilots.

Pilot shortage?
Is there really a pilot shortage in the horizon?

A better question should be: are there going to be enough experienced pilots in the airlines’ future?

Not an easy answer. As far as the legacy airlines is concerned, I don’t think a pilot shortage is a problem in the short and mid terms. There are plenty of regional airline pilots keeping the supply side of the equation in favor of the legacies.

The regional airlines, on the other hand, are beginning to experience problems attracting experienced pilots. Notice I’m using the term "experienced" and not the term "qualified." Why? Because a pilot who completes training and passes the company’s check ride is a qualified pilot (at least in the eyes of the FAA). However, passing a check ride only indicates that a pilot meets the minimum requirements to operate the aircraft.

Here is where the regional airlines are facing problems. Pay and quality of life are so poor at the regionals that they are not able to attract experienced pilots. Those aviators with considerable flight time are staying put at corporate, fractional, and FAR 135 operators because the regionals just don’t offer a viable alternative.

So what’s left for the regionals? Well, we are seeing it now; the 600 hr. pilot who may be able to become qualified by completing the airline’s flight training but lacks real world experience; the kind of experience only acquired by "doing it."

I don’t think we will see a shortage of pilots per se, instead, we’ll continue to see a shortage of experienced pilots. A sign of the times.

P

Hi!

Introduction:
There is a pilot shortage worldwide, and it is getting worse on a monthly basis. Currently, the US is the only place (maybe a few excess pilots in Australia) with some excess pilots.

Boeing says that, worldwide, 19,000 airline pilots are needed a year for the next 20 years. They are setting up an alternative training program to get guys up to speed faster and cheaper.

Last year, virtually EVERY jet manufacturer worldwide had their best order year ever. And, 2005 WAS their best year ever, until they surpassed it in 2006. The US is seeing multitudes of VLJs coming on line starting this year, also. Worldwide, the projection for airline travel is going up dramatically. Much of this growth is from India and China.

Europe already has an Age 70 committee working, and they will ease the requirements for a commercial pilot, as the are getting so short.

India needs 11,000 airline pilots in the next 3 years. Last year they produced 150. China needs 9,000 airline pilots the next 3 years. They produce 1,000 per year.

Emirates needs 400 pilots by the end of this year. They told my buddy he is qualified to get a -777 Captain job with them. He has NO widebody experience, NO heavy experience, and NO oceanic experience. Previously, you needed to have a type rating and time in type to get a Captain job at Emirates.

Cathay is parking one or more freighters because they don't have enough pilots.

The contract agencies are going crazy trying to find pilots to fill the slots that they are allotted. They used to have lots of qualified applicants on file. Now they have very few, and the applicants they do have are telling the contract agencies that the jobs don't pay enough.

US Airlines already have plans in place to begin Ab-Initio (like air forces do, or Euro/Asian carriers where the carrrier pays for everything) training when needed (not if).

US Regionals:
The regionals are having MASSIVE problems getting enough guys. Unfortunately, you have to have Green Card or the right to work here already.

They are hiring EVERY 500 hour TT pilot in the country. Next will be the race for the Commercial/Multi/Instrument 200 hour pilots. There is a MASSIVE shortage of instructors-some flight schools have shut down, or are turning away students. No need to instruct when you can get an airline job.

They are paying new-hires bonuses of up to $5,000 USD. Many are paying their current pilots bonuses if they find new hires.

They are cancelling whole banks of flights. Many of them have also contracted for new feed service with more airplanes soon, and have found they can't even cover the flying the have now.

The regionals virtually ALL pay in training, pay for your lodging, perdiem, and give you jumpseat and/or pass privileges to fly home on the weekends. It used to be the worst ones didn't, but they have to now.

Pinnacle, Trans States, PSA (a USAir feeder) and USA Jet (where I work) have NO hourly minimums right now (we used to be 2000/1000, now we're Commercial/Multi/Instrument).

Almost all of the regionals don't have interview or class dates now. They'll either interview and hire over the phone, or they'll interview the candidates whenever they can make it in. Many of them run a new-hire class EVERY Monday, and take whoever shows up. We were trying to get 2000/1000/1 year of crew experience guys in to go directly to a DC-9 and we'ver gotten 1 so far, after trying for 3 months.

One of our competitors (we're on-demand freight and charter PAX) needed pilots bad and didn't even get a RESUME for 3 months, much less anyone in to interview.

Regionals have held classes of 25-30, and only 5-10 guys show up. At Trans States, Dec 2006, you needed 4000 TT to upgrade. Now it's 2000. Pinnacle only hires FOs, but the qualified ones bid for Captain on day one, and are awarded the bid while still in their first week with the company.

Pinnacle has contacted every pilot that was every scheduled to interview with them, and didn't, or turned the job down, and asked them to start class. They've even contacted everyone that has left and asked them if they wanted to return!

Our Director of Recruiting gets constantly asked to start class at a regional, and he's over 60 years old! Many of us in the US have gotten job offers from multiple regionals, over and over, even though we've never even applied.

Several of our pilots left for NetJets (a fractional) recently. Since Jan, they have experienced a net loss of pilots each month, even though they've been hiring full tilt. They have hundreds of planes on order.

US Majors:
Southwest just lowered their PIC turbine hour requirement from 1300 to 1000 hours. They did this because they didn't have as many applications as they wanted.

Delta started hiring this year and was shocked with how few military applicants they had (they used to hire virtually ALL military FW pilots).

Many NWA/UAL/USAir/DAL pilots are refusing to return off of furlough, because they have better jobs at the places they're at now. UAL/NWA and USAir will all be hiring MUCH sooner than they planned because many of the furloughees didn't return.

KATL Air Inc Hiring Conference:
Several years ago, a guy I know went and said there were about 1000 pilots attending. Last year, my buddy said there were 400 pilots. This year he said about 120 pilots.

Cathay and Emirates now attend EVERY major hiring conference. In the past, they would take Americans, but they never actively solicited them.

A guy I know was hired by Mesa at the conference. He said they got only 7 resumes from the whole weekend! He did NOT have a Commercial, and Mesa hired him anyway, contingent upon his getting his Commercial License. He asked about an intervew and was told it wasn't necessary.

Closing:
We found a higher time guy last Monday, interviewed him on Thursday, and he started class yesterday (Monday). 7 days from first contact to starting class. He was offered Captain slot at Pinnacle, but didn't want to fly with all the 200-500 hour FOs they've been hiring.

We had another guy with 1000 Total Time, 500+ CRJ time and a CRJ type rating coming in to fly the DC-9. He got a Captain's job in India paying $100K USD, with family housing, schooling for his children and a car and driver provided.

Now's the biggest pilot shortage since the early '60s (when US majors hired kids in high school with no time). And, barring a MAJOR change, it's only going to get worse (if you're trying to hire), or better (if you're a pilot) in the next few years.

Currently, FedEx/UPS/UAL/NWA/USAir AA aren't hiring. Within 6 months, UPS/UAL and NWA will be hiring. Within 12 months FedEx and USAir will be hiring, with AA to follow.

Wow!

cliff
DA-20 Captain
USA Jet Airlines
KYIP

ATPCLIFF

Well done...very comprehensive and informative post..

ATP Cliff wrote:

"Currently, the US is the only place (maybe a few excess pilots in Australia) with some excess pilots."

How are you defining "pilot"? In Canada you still have guys lining up for jobs on the ramp (where they spend usually a year to 2 years doing grunt labor before they are made an FO on a Navajo or King Air).

You also got guys lining up around the block for jobs at Air Canada that pay a grand wopping $38,000 per year.

In Europe you have no shortage of guys paying huge sums of money to buy type ratings, and then paying to work for free via hour building schemes.

What's the average salary of regional FO in the US? Has it broken the McDonald's night shift manager level yet?

Seriously, it's nice to see hiring, but let's not get carried away and let's keep it in context...

And remember, we're still dealing with aviation... things in aviation have a way of changing over night... Or have we forgot about 9-11 already?

PosClimb

As always in this debate I think we have to distinguish between experienced pilots and wannabees going after their first job.... there will probably never be a shortage of wannabees. You are of course right on the volatile nature of the business.

Hi!
You're right-I didn't mention that Canada has excess pilots (I should've remembered, since my CEO is Canadian).
I know that in Europe they are needing pilots. One of the reasons that Asian carriers like Cathay and Emirates are having such shortages is that many of their European pilots are returning to Europe. Also, JAR wouldn't be studying Age 70 and easing requirements if there were excess pilots.
cliff
KYIP

Given all the facts you stated it is just a matter of time to US allow highly experienced foreign pilots.
If a skilled profession has significant shortage law permits employment of foreign workforce.

ATPCLIFF: I really enjoyed reading your description of the situation here.
A buddy at NWA told me yesterday that when he was furloughed a few years ago, he applied to be an Instructor at Pinnacle and they only offered him a job as line pilot, which still pays (a salary) little above US minimum wage.
He said that recently NWA assumed that dozens of laid-off mainline pilots would rush over to Compass when they began operations.

A buddy who might not return there told him that only 5 have gone to work there-and Compass certainly still no written contract for pay, benefits or anything else. Are guys interviewing there feeling optimistic after hearing about corporate promises, even if they are interviewed by pilots? If so, what planet were they on until now?
In a recent copy of "Aviation Week & ST", a regional airline 'executive'
describes the pilot shortage. Among those who operate the lousiest airlines, are these guys intelligent enough to discover the connection between their arrogant greed :E,the minimum wage starting jet salaries and the surprise that there are far fewer applicants, or why almost nobody shows up for Day One in groundschool at times?

My sympathy lies with the brand-new young pilots who struggle and claw their way through some of the regional airline training programs. My buddy claimed that at one airline with CRJs, about half are not successful. Hopefully they realize, especially after leaving programs that are reportedly not good (a furloughed pilot told me about Chatauqua's training), that there are better programs-possibly training in a SF-340 or Beech-1900.

In my opinion, compared hour for hour, flying mostly short, very busy legs into congested airline hubs and back is much more valuable experience around weather or in winter snow to some (so-called) non-precision approaches in LAN or SPI in a two-pilot turboprop, compared to droning six hours from Niagara Falls to PDX in a C-130 with an FE.

Hi!

The only experienced pilots that are excess are in the US and Canada. Europe, Latin America, Africa, Asia and Australia have no excess experienced pilots.

The FAA and NavCanada made it easy to crossover with your US or Canadian license, but you still need the right to work.

It is the rest of the world that is looking to America to get their pilots.

I recently heard from a recruiter that his buddy was hired as a street captain and check airman on the -767LR. He was a retired US guy, age 63, and he was found by one of the desperate contract agencies-he didn't apply or even know about the job. They took him even though he can only fly two years.

cliff
kyip

With the current situation as per excellent post by atpcliff, we should see an upward trend of pilot's salaries.

We should all work together to ensure that we get what we deserve and "pilots working for nothing" should be a thing of the past.

I agree with atpcliff and I stated this in my March post that there is, indeed, a pilot shortage...off course, those who are "player haters" are going to "hate the game" but the reality is the pilot shortage is here, in every catagory of work. I'm definately reaping the benefits from it...

ATPCLIFF:

It appears that, based upon chats with CRJ pilots in ORD and MSP etc, the comparative pilot descriptions of Mesa, Gulfstream and other such companies has finally circulated all across the US from the UND (Grand Forks, N.D.) aviation program to Embry Riddle, and most places in between.

Have the parents who forked out (no pun intended) the heap$ of extra money for the expensive aviation training also become enlightened about the reality out in the real world of US aviation?
How about those who are ready to begin spending these huge piles now?

Hi!

Student pilot starts in the US have been down by about 50% in the last 5 years. I belive people have been hearing about the low pay of beginning pilots, and the high cost of training, and many of them that would've begun training are not doing so now.

Cessna's new LSA aircraft will help this situation significantly. The cost per flight hour will go way down, because the capital cost of the aircraft, maintenance and, especially fuel, will be much lower.

I think that airlines will be forced to start Ab-Initio training, regardless of the positive effects of the Cessna LSA.

cliff
KYIP

Given the state of the industry, would you really consider a career in the airlines??? Highly experienced foreign pilots?? Most of them have better jobs than are available in the USA

"There's no shortage. Flight schools and businesses that sell employment such as Air, Inc love to spread those rumors...but there's no pilot shortage. There never was. Don't get sucked into that noise."

Not quite sure that is true, look around you, not just in the US, but the rest of the world. Contracts companies are scrambling to find qualified crews, majors in the US are recalling, but 1 in 3 has already found another job and is intending to stay in place.

China is facing a shortage, as is the ME and it probably will grow worse as time progresses. Countries aound the world has been enioying the surplus of US and EU pilots, but that is about to come to a grinding halt, if it hasn't already. Heck, Cathay is hiring DEC as is KAL, rather unusual I think most would agree.

The hope for us all, is that this will drive wages UP.
Kind regards,

There is a pilot shortage but only for experianced pilots. period. As previously stated young pilots still lining the docks in Canada for a slave labour job.

Listen, the flight schools are limited on new pilots becuase even if a kid wants to fly, and I mean is passioante about flying, in this economy he/she is going to way the salary levels, the cost of training, and the job propsects and give it a miss. Young people want to know that their education will lead to a good paying job. They see higher education from its return on investment potential. Generation Y demands this, and when they can work in the oil patch in Canada, right after graduating from a 2 year technical diploma and make a starting wage THAT ONLY A SENIOR AIRLINE CAPTAIN MAKES AFTER 25 YEARS. Why would they bother? I had to work docks to get my start, and I would tell my kid not to bother when he can make $120,000 per year starting in the oil patch in Alberta.

Also, the North American attitude towards pilot progression is the dark ages. We always demand experiance, but let me be blunt. The amount of "experianced" old Captains I have flown with in canada that are lazy, unprofessional ,and sloppy is staggering. Our air force trains pilots ab initio to fly F-18's and European airlines train ab initio for airlines while maintaining an air safety record every bit as good as North American airlines (better in fact.)

North American pilots have allowed the "cheap labour new hire" concept, and every pilot on this forum that said " I had to work the docks until I got my way up the ladder" is just as guilty of promoting a low waged pilot industry as the employers are. Junior pilots should be considered trained professionals worthy of a decent living wage. They need to become experianced yes, but how many pilots on this forum refer to them as "wannabes" - Lose the attitude Mr. EX wannabes, becuase someone allowed us all to advance. The Europeans consider their junior pilots as professionals, to be molded with the right training, we consider our junior pilots as cheap garbage, and that attitude, follows North American pilots through employment for much of their careers until they are seniored. The fault behind low wages in the aviation industry lies on each of our shoulders, for taking an outdated and un intellectual approach like " I did it,so can they" which proves NOTHING! Any idiot can load cargo, it proves nothing, and does make for a better pilot.

The so-called "shortage" of experienced pilots in the USA is somewhat overstated. It may become more accurate an assertion in the future, but for now, there are very few incentives to join a US airline. Pay, schedule and benefits for first year pilots are a joke. They are obviously not too desperate for new pilots yet. They have more trouble finding ramp agents for similar pay. The guys applying to the majors these days need rich wives willing to support their hobby.

Best,

Hi!

There is a shortage of experienced pilots:
-Delta didn't get anywhere near the number of military applicants they were expecting.
-SWA lowered their requirements from 1300 to 1000
-UAL expected a LOT more applicants: ]...word around the DEN training center (called "TK" by UA peeps) is that there were only 600 apps after the first 3 days - they were expecting 3000+.

-Almost all Asian carriers are hiring DECs because they have to. My buddy was told he qualified for -777 DEC WITHOUT ANY widebody, heavy, or oceanic experience
-Kalitta (747s) just raised their pay 40% and went to Home Basing
-USA 3000 lowered their mins from 5,000 TT to 4,000 TT
-Emirates deleted their max age restriction for applicants, and raised their retirement age to 65.
-JAR (Europe) is examining age 70 and is relaxing their licensing standards

There is a MASSIVE shortage of inexperienced pilots:
-ALL the regional US airlines have drastically lowered their mins, some don't have ANY hourly mins
-Some regionals are hiring guys WITHOUT their Commercial license (I had my ATP, the highest US rating 10 years ago and the Regionals said I was UNQUALIFIED)
-Most regionals are cancelling flights left and right because of a shortage of crews
-Many regionals are increasing pay, paying signing bonuses and even asking their unions for MORE PAY for new hires in a desperate attempt to recruit pilots.

cliff
KLRD

Yesterday on the 'staff' shuttle, I sat next to a Line Check Airman who flies CRJs.

What he described to me, with no exaggeration, would have been unbelievable, if I had not heard it from him.
Not only is he avoiding any OE/IOE trips with brand-new FOs, he refused to fly over his monthly max, even after the company offered to pay him time and a half, in order to make such flying avoidable.

He claimed that due to some strange 'attitude problems' (?) (my words) among some IP or simulator Check Airmen, most of the pilots who left ACA and went there failed training or checking. And many had about 2,000 hours in the same jet-the CRJ. I have heard other stories, but not first person, about the company's sim. training. Maybe the ACA guys came over before this serious recruiting problem/shortage began? It is possible for a pilot trainee to have an attitude problem or adjustment problems to new, different expectations.
But based upon what he learned, he could not figure out why such a large fraction did not receive better treatment.

I was unable to comprehend why such problems were allowed to exist, unless the people in charge of their training, or budgets, are totally arrogant (which would not surprise me..) or just all "out of their league", maybe both. Maybe the head Training Captain has almost no authority? If not, why is he staying in the job? If he has real authority, why is he allowed to operate such a department? If he can not get a large fraction of new-hires through training, why does the FAA allow their syllabus allowed to remain as it is? These questions are based upon the Check Airman's comments to me. What a nightmare for these eager, naive young aviators. One major problems at this and some airlines appears to be the lack of positive, realistic, progressive training (one large airline made superb, major changes over the years to its A-320 training and is able to get almost all students through the syllabus).
As for training, one of our pilots who was recalled from furlough this winter told me that he was really disappointed with his CRJ training at Chautauqua.

Anyway, the guy on the shuttle claimed that with pay about as bad as that at Mesa, their recruiting and training problems are no surprise to anybody.

As an interesting side-note:
A brand-new FO during IOE said "WHEE!" The Check Airman asked "What?"
The very brand-new pilot, being second-in-command on a jet (which he might immediately operate into ATL, ORD, LGA, JFK, BOS, LAX etc) said that he had never before flown through a cloud!

Some new-hires were sent away, even after doing ok up to that point, because they had no multi-engine rating! Not even with the center-line thrust restriction. He stated that if the FAA has sat in on a certain check ride, the young applicant might have had the center-line restriction, which would have allowed him to continue training.

Maybe I missed something...but some on IOE had no me rating, or during sim training???

USav8or:
Those were his words, not mine, on the 'staff shuttle' to the airport.
He claimed that if an FAA Check Airman (airline designee?) had been present, that one guy reportedly could have received a 'centerline-thrust' multi-engine, in order to finish training and then earn the true multi-engine.

I've never instructed etc so have no idea what the regs allow, but assumed that his stories were accurate and valid.

Off the topic.
Our Lead Flight Attendant's husband is new at Mesaba. Does anybody in PpruneLand know how long to upgrade at Mesaba if one's total hours are about 600, including some Instructor experience? Total PIC is normally the main limitation.

Upgrade time at Mesaba is currently running at approximately three years, and likely to get shorter due to their fleet expansion. By no means the quickest upgrade in the US regionals, but a nice place to work, from what I've heard.

US Pilot shortage is more hype than fact. We train the highest number of pilots in the shortest period of time and supply them all over the world.
Currently, the mins have dropped to 250hrs at some regionals and it won't be long before the majors will be hiring 500hr guys.
Nevertheless, if push comes to shove , the H1 visa will be used to accomodate foreign pilots, who are currently working as Pt91/135 pilots with thousands of hours of experience.

The U.S. has been too slow to raise the age limit to the 65 international standard. This has exaggerated the pilot shortage to a degree that is now a major safety concern.

I had a career with PanAm in USA, hired in 1968, until the 1991 bankruptcy, this with long layoff period 1972-1982, when I was forced to fly overseas, or instructing at the PanAm academy. There is no single factor responsible for the "shortage" of pilots, there are many of them.
xxx
The last posting here mentions age 60 retirement, one of the reasons. This applied to pilots (not flight engineers, who could continue to fly with NO age limit whatsoever). I flew with "old farts" with various foreign air carriers, in my F/O days, and still remember them as the most competent and experienced captains I ever flew with. My recommendation would be to make age retirement function of the issuance of a 1st class medical only, this maybe with the following limitations: only one pilot over age 60 to operate in a cockpit crew, and no transition to other type aircraft after age 60 (as you do not teach "old dogs new tricks").
xxx
The culture of "big airplane, big salary" in the USA. Let me explain... Upgrade to captain and transition to bigger planes is function of seniority with USA air carriers... all ok... but a problem, I saw when I was with PanAm, and with my friends who were with other airlines. An example... a friend with UAL, now retired, who got hired in 1968...
xxx
He trained, in sequence, from F/E 727, to F/E 720, to F/E DC-8, to F/O 727, F/O DC-8, then F/E DC-10, then F/O 727 again, then F/O DC-10, then capt. 737, capt. 727, capt. DC-10, then finally capt. 747... spending some unproductive 36 months in training during his career... besides moving 3 times, suffering 2 divorces, and years of commuting between domicile and bases, spending nights of "reserve" in cheap motels next to noisy airports. Why this... salary structure... besides having higher salary when you upgrade to F/O and captain, the bigger the plane, the more money...
xxx
When I was with PanAm, I lived in the Los Angeles area. I never got based at LAX (my first choice, near home) or SFO (my second choice, easy commute). I was based at JFK or MIA. Do you know where pilots who did bid LAX or SFO lived...? New York, New Jersey, Connecticut, Massachusets etc... These gentlemen loved to commute for the extra few dollars to fly bigger airplanes on longer Pacific sectors...
xxx
Another friend, KLM, got hired in 1971, as F/O DC-9, then DC-10 F/O, then DC-10 captain, then retired as MD-11 captain. Compared to my UAL buddy, he probably spent very little unproductive time in training, and certainly was highly experienced with 30 years (20,000 hrs?) on DC-10/MD-11 types... With KLM, the size of plane you fly has very little to do with your salary. Salary increases come with position and longevity based on date of hire...
xxx
Pilot shortage... ok... airlines in USA do not hire "direct entry captains", because of union contracts, except maybe 747 operators like Evergreen or Kalitta... (and these two for what salary?). A PanAm colleague joined Kalitta in 1994, as 747 captain. His first year salary was around $50,000. He retired fairly recently (2003), he never exceeded $85,000 during his Kalitta career.
xxx
No wonder I bailed out of USA in 1992 for the "third world", and happy I did. Here in Argentina, senior pilots love the 737 and MD-80, working 18 days a month, and be home almost every night... They have 30 yrs seniority, and make double salary than myself, 747 pilot, with my 13 yrs. Besides that, I spend 7 to 10 nights away from home each month... on top of being in the office or classrooms on the days I do not fly, to make a little extra money.
xxx
In view of all this, I have no sympathy for USA operators, and certainly not for regionals, who remain to me, glorified "135" commuter carriers. If given to be age 25 again, I could not afford the salaries offered to new hires, especially having disbursed a fortune to get a type rating on a little jet... In the old days, airlines hired F/Os or F/Es with a CPL/IR, which in the late 1960s, was a $5,000 investment...
xxx
Consider a career in hamburger sales, and buy yourself a McDonald franchise, rather than throwing your parent's hard earned money in a CRJ type rating. The only winners are these "airline type rating schools" who must laugh their way to the bank... Let the airlines cancel their flights, short of pilots... and insist they double their wages. In 1968, gasoline was 29 cents a gallon, I filled-up my Corvair with $3.oo, and gave 25 cents tip to the attendant who cleaned my windshield, checked my oil, and verified the tire pressures.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

Very informative reading belargusa,I follow this thread quite closely as I have quite a few buddies flying in the USA.
regards

Very interesting indeed. Certainly has me wondering whether I should even try to stay up here in the US, return back home to the Caribbean, or simply try somewhere else altogether. hmmmmmm:hmm:

Young Pilot, you will do much better taking your ratings back to the Caribbean and getting a job, where you will be treated and paid like a professional. Here in the US, it really makes no sence. BelArgUSA has said it all. Pilots seem to come a dime a dozzen here in the USA and they are treated like day labourers. Imagine going for a job interview and being told that congratulations you got the job, now pay us 12000 dollars to put you on the aircraft to fly???? and a lot of the young kids we have these days jump at this. "shiny jet syndrone". why will i want to pay some one to hire be to do a job i trained for with about $50000 should this not be the other way around? Pilots and wannabes are their own worst enemy. if the airlines dont have anyone to fly, believe me they will first review this 1st yr officers slave wage then start paying for your type and better working conditions and all this pilot mills aka aviation academies that milk these souls for $70000 to $95000 for a job that pays you $19000-$23000 your first year????? how do you survive?? the human spirit is so..... and you already have a college degree??

The shortage is all hype, when it really hurts CEOs of Airlines will stop taking $600000 a year and FO $20000 and spread the wealth around and pay professional what they are really worth.

A few examples -
xxx
In 1969, the first year salary of a F/O or F/E (727-DC9) was some $12,000, and at the time, sharing an apartment was $150/mo. and a dinner was $10... You had invested $5,000 for a CPL/IR... and the second year pay was double, some $25,000. Your per-diem was $24/day. I remember my liability insurance for my little Corvair was $200/year, and I did mention the gasoline at 29 cents a gallon...
xxx
2007... You pay near $3.oo a gallon for gas, and $600+ for liability insurance, and your shared apartment is $500/month in some cities. A breakfast will be $10+ and a dinner will be $20... Yet your salary would be $20,000 a year to be a F/O on CRJ... (and you paid some $60,000+ to get there)... a very poor investment in a career, indeed.
xxx
And you fly a few years for a regional (I repeat, glorified "135" operator) with a DAL or UAL emblem on the tail, but you are not working for these major carriers (yet)... so you have to apply with these Delta or United, the day you have 2 or 3,000 hrs, to hear that after being a new hire again, you will be paid the first year pay, as 737 F/O, at less than $24,000 (again) until you get ALPA wages on the second year.
xxx
Factor-in the possible furloughs, like I had. All it takes, is Osama Bin Laden putting a threat on DisneyWorld destruction by terrorism, and "whop", you and 5,000 of your colleagues will be without work. Try to get a "corporate" pilot job, with 5,000 hrs F/O time, as you are to them, with no experience on a Gulfstream V (that means "5", not "Victor") and no experience in carrying a Gucci pilot bag, and unable to spell Moët & Chandon champagne at the FBO. Airline pilots are not welcome in the corporate world. Maybe you will then find a job as CFI, (and pay near $10,000 to get a CFI certificate)... Of course, you could also drive a Yellow Cab... and fake a Russian or Mexican accent.
xxx
I remember 1997, visiting an old time friend, who just had retired as one of the most senior 747-400 UAL captain... and who was also operator, and "outright owner" (wow) of a fleet of Learjets, a few Gulfstreams and a couple of 727-100s (these operated with VIP interior)... He asked me about Argentina, and my job there, and my wages, and how much I was flying per year... with a smile... Then, I asked him "Tell me, what was your pay with United these last years...?" - "My pay... salary was $238,000/yr..." - (Then I asked how much flying that was per year) - his answer was - "Oh, I flew very little, as I have to care about my FBO and my Bizjets here... I did bid reserve and flew about 100 hrs/yr... just to stay current..." - So in effect, my dear friend was paid $238,000/yr for 100 hrs, or... $2,380 per hr if my advanced mathematics are correct...
xxx
But outside of his luxury FBO, I knew kids with licenses crying for a job at $12/hr as CFI, or $20/hr to raise the gear of a Learjet... At times, I admire and respect Che Guevara...
xxx
Another word about the Kalittas and the Evergreens... Oh, you pilots (say the CEOs), we need to keep pilot wages low, because we are competing against the FedEx and the UPS cargo carriers... OK, fine, until you learn that the Kalittas and the Evergreens sell the ton/kilometers at the same price as the FedEx and UPS they are "competing with"...
xxx
In the 1980s, suffering my PanAm layoff, I flew for ONA/UACI as a 707 then DC8 captain, based in Jeddah, Saudia ACMI, and enjoying the camels and prayer times... and saying "Insh'Allah" for my estimates... Our CEO was the third highest paid airline executive in the USA airline industry, after the AA CEO (C.R. Smith) and DAL (cannot recall his name).
xxx
If you love planes so much, make it like my dentist, he owns a superb SF260 Siai-Marchetti, and enjoys week-ends with his lady-friends at the best resorts in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, or Uruguay. I trade I/R instruction for dental work... and after 100 hrs dual, he stills needs a block of airspace for his ATC assigned levels... I used to own a little Piper L-21C, I had to sell it, could not afford it with my 747 captain salary...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

I will say that this is one of the most informative threads for young(er) pilots to think about for their future careers.

I myself had 18 years in the US with USAirways. Did the flight instructor thing before getting the chance to fly sched 135 before that.
Then came 911, and the first bankruptcy. The second shoe fell when the second bankruptcy was imminent, and the salery which up till then was fairly good was again lowered.
I lost my seat in the airplane I was flying twice, before saying that enough was enough.
The loss of the pension that had been hard fought over many years and contracts was also gone like the wind. If I had stayed like most of my new hire class, I would be looking at still being in the right seat of a 320/737 with now going on 22 years with the company.

Now I have to fly for a company I had not even heard of till they started buying airplanes with all of the oil money the country has.

And this place is 6500nm from home.

Got to admit it though, I have become very comfortable here and in no way will I return to the "Good ole USA" for a job in anytime in the future.

I truely see no future for the airline industry with pay that is now so prevelent. How can the new pilot justify paying for the ratings that are required just to get that first job. And then fly till he drops from fatigue.

I have no idea why anyone would still want to be an "airline" pilot when you could do as BelarqUSA says and get a job that pays something decent and buy your own airplane. Your still in Aviation, but on your terms and not some cutthroat scumbags.

I had all of the gold stars in my eyes growing up and wanted to see the world.
I still am, but now from the Mid-east and not from home. And 95% of the guy's and now girls here, are also in the same boat.

For every story about the guy that is a wide body captain by the time he was 35, there are twice as many more that are not there. (maybe even more)

Use the brain in your head and make a life for yourself that does not include airline flying for a living.

My 2 cent worth

I think what we're dealing with here is not a "shortage" as such, but something much more fundamental. The profession has been beaten down so much that it's simply no longer attractive. The experienced people who've been trough 2-3 (4, 5, 6?) furloughs are pretty well fed up and no longer want any part of this business, while young people who would be making up the future of the trade are finding much more attractive options in any number of fields. Just in the area I live in, our local airport went from 7 FBOs to only one, while a very well-known school at another nearby field closed down this past March after dropping down to only 10 (!) students.

So, what does all this mean? It seems to me airlines (and not just them) will in a few years find themselves in a real bind. The experienced people still won't be coming back, and there simply won't be any new people, if flight school enrollment continues to decline the way it has been.

At that point, my hope is the good old law of supply and demand will finally kick in and we'll finally start seeing a climb in flight crew pay and benefits.

I could be wrong.

You won't be seeing any increase in flight crew pay and benefits; rather just the opposite. The top pay is only at FedEx and at UPS; pilots at the rest of the "legacy" carriers are getting squeezed not only on pay, but on benefits, including pensions. Relentless downward pressure on wages and benefits; and a squeeze for ever more flight and duty times has become practical reality. At slave driving outfits like Ryan Air, crews actually have to pay for coffee. Imagine that! Pilots have become like "blue collar" workers; bus/truck drivers with wings. In fact, many long haul truck drivers make more money than copilots at low cost carriers.
And there is no real shortage of pilots, only a shortage of very experienced, high time pilots. :ooh:

Baba70, I really appreciate the reply. It's just so confusing when you have your fellow brothers telling you to stay in the US, but others like you are saying it's best to return to the region:confused:. I guess if the most I can do is remain up here for an extra yr after next May to flight instruct (visa restrictions/opt), I might as well not push for anything else.

Cheers :ok:

With Jobs Scarce, U.S. Pilots
>Sign On At Foreign Airlines
>
>
>By Susan Carey and Bruce Stanley
>
>From The Wall Street Journal Online
>
>Nearly two years ago, at age 51, Brian Murray took early retirement
>from US Airways. The pilot was outraged by the airline's termination
>of his pension plan and worried about his future with a carrier
>sliding toward bankruptcy court for the second time.
>
>But Capt. Murray's flying career was far from over. Today he lives
>in Dubai and flies wide-body Airbus A330s for fast-growing Emirates
>Airlines, winging to exotic destinations in Europe, Africa and Asia.
>He's home more than he ever was at US Airways, and his total
>compensation package -- including health care, housing allowance,
>retirement plan and vacation -- is superior. He says his wife and
>children enjoy living in the United Arab Emirates, and "from a
>professional standpoint, it couldn't be better."
>
>In a new twist on global outsourcing, a flock of U.S. pilots is
>fleeing the depressed North American airline industry to work in far
>reaches of the world where aviation is booming. After the 2001
>terrorist attacks stifled air travel and sent the U.S. industry into
>its deepest decline ever, more than 10,000 U.S. pilots were laid
>off, and many more took early retirement. Despite subsequent hiring
>by a few healthy carriers, including Southwest Airlines, thousands
>haven't been able to find new flying jobs at their old pay grades.
>
>At the same time, the industry is expanding rapidly in China, India,
>Southeast Asia and the Middle East. As these regions have grown more
>affluent and loosened aviation restrictions, travel demand has
>soared. New airlines have started up, existing carriers are adding
>routes, and hundreds of new jets are on order.
>
>So, like British and Australian pilots who long have plied their
>trade wherever they find work, more Yanks are taking their skills
>offshore. They are doing so despite trepidations about moving
>families, flying on short-term contracts, and sometimes giving up
>union rights to be called back to work by U.S. carriers according to
>seniority.
>
>U.S. pilots are working as far afield as Bolivia, China, Qatar and
>Vietnam. Hong Kong-based Cathay Pacific Airways and Singapore
>Airlines are hiring more Americans, as are carriers in Taiwan and
>South Korea, and increasingly, in India.
>
>The diaspora is one symptom of a growing global shortage of
>well-trained commercial pilots. Aerospace giant Boeing Co. estimates
>the global jet fleet will grow to more than 35,000 airplanes in
>2024, from fewer than 17,000 in 2004. Boeing pegs demand for new
>pilots at nearly 18,000 a year through 2024. China alone will need
>more than 35,000 new pilots over 20 years, and the rest of Asia will
>need 56,500, the company estimates. Many countries are currently
>unable to train enough pilots at home.
>
>The result: a global bazaar where experienced pilots go to the
>highest bidder. Norwegians and Venezuelans are flying in China,
>Egyptians and Russians in India, Jamaicans and Iranians for a
>Japanese carrier. Four out of five pilots at Qatar Airways are
>foreign. More than 70 Philippine Airlines pilots have quit since
>2003 for better-paying jobs elsewhere. Etihad Airways, a new airline
>based in Abu Dhabi, says its No. 1 source of pilots is Malaysia.
>India's fleet of startup carriers was so plagued by pilot poaching
>that the government last year began requiring pilots to serve at
>least six months at one carrier before moving on.
>
>G.R. Gopinath, managing director for Air Deccan, a two-year-old
>budget airline in India, says he has been recruiting a dozen pilots
>a month from overseas. "If Indian software engineers can work in the
>U.S., their pilots can come and work here," he says. "It's reverse
>body-shopping." Pilot job fairs in the U.S. have begun attracting
>recruiters for Chinese and Indian startups, according to Kit Darby,
>president of Air Inc., a placement firm.
>
>The hiring frenzy has led to some safety concerns. English is the
>industry's world-wide language. Putting two pilots with different
>native languages in the same cockpit, where they might have to
>interact with an air-traffic controller whose native tongue is
>different still, can lead to problems, especially in emergencies,
>contends Dennis Dolan, a retired Delta Air Lines captain and
>president of the U.K.-based International Federation of Air Line
>Pilots' Associations, which represents pilot unions and associations
>in 95 countries.
>
>The International Civil Aviation Organization, an agency of the
>United Nations, intends in 2008 to begin English-proficiency testing
>of pilots and air-traffic controllers who handle international
>flights. India proposed that measure after a 1996 accident in which
>the flight crew of a Kazakh Airways jet misunderstood an Indian
>controller's instructions, leading to a midair collision with a
>Saudi Arabian Airlines plane near New Delhi. India also cited the
>1995 crash of an American Airlines jet near Cali, Colombia, in which
>miscommunication between a Colombian controller and a U.S. crew was
>a contributing factor.
>
>Jim Burin, director of technical programs for the Alexandria,
>Va.-based Flight Safety Foundation, an international nonprofit
>group, points to another safety concern. "In some cultures, it's not
>the place of the second-in-command to question the
>first-in-command," he says. That could interfere with the co-pilot's
>role as a check on the captain, who commands the flight.
>
>One pilot who moved from a U.S. airline to a national carrier in
>Southeast Asia says that informational updates on safety at his new
>employer arrive late or not at all, and that little attention is
>paid to punctuality or how many hours pilots work. "Training for the
>most part is far from the quality I was used to in the U.S.," says
>the 55-year-old captain, who asked not to be identified for fear of
>angering his employer. He adds that he likes the lifestyle and finds
>the job "relatively easy."
>
>Capt. Murray, who flies out of Dubai, says safety standards are high
>at Emirates, and its 1,350 pilots from 70 nations speak fluent
>English. He says pilots are "treated with respect in this part of
>the world. We're driven to work. We're put in four- and five-star
>hotels, on the concierge floors. Captains are treated as vice
>presidents of the organization."
>
>Some out-of-work U.S. pilots balk at going overseas for family
>reasons. Some hope to be recalled by U.S. carriers and don't want to
>give up their seniority rights. Duane Woerth, president of the Air
>Line Pilots Association, a U.S. union, says foreign carriers are
>interested in senior pilots, not junior ones. He worries about the
>"brain drain" and whether foreign carriers are using U.S. pilots
>only temporarily until they can staff up with their own citizens.
>But "our guys are warming up to it," he says. "This one looks like a
>permanent structural shift."
>
>Andrew Baedke, who was furloughed by Northwest Airlines after Sept.
>11, has worked for the past three years as a Honolulu-based 747
>first officer, or co-pilot, for Jalways, a subsidiary of Japan
>Airlines. "A lot of my [laid-off] friends are sitting at home or
>working for Home Depot," says Mr. Baedke, who is 36 years old. "I'm
>glad to have this job. It's extremely stable."
>
>One reason for the pilot shortage is that developing nations aren't
>training enough of them at home. There are not enough flight schools
>in the world to meet demand, says Brent Mills, the chief executive
>officer of Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology, a flight
>academy in Tulsa, Okla., that plans to open schools in India with a
>local partner in the next year. It takes many years for a college
>graduate to accumulate sufficient flight training and commercial
>flying hours to climb the professional ladder from novice to first
>officer to captain.
>
>Some nations, such as Japan and Ethiopia, have raised the mandatory
>retirement age for commercial pilots to alleviate the shortage.
>ICAO, the U.N. agency, will recommend later this year that the age
>be raised to 65 from 60, although member nations will not be
>required to do so.
>
>The Chinese government runs a school in Sichuan province that
>graduated 307 novice pilots last year. China Southern Airlines, the
>nation's largest carrier by fleet size, has its own school in
>Australia. In 2004, four Chinese investors opened Beijing PanAm
>International Aviation Academy, which 240 students now attend.
>
>Nevertheless, Gao Hongfeng, deputy director of the Civil Aviation
>Administration of China, says there are almost enough native pilots
>to staff the new airplanes China has on order, but it will be
>difficult for the nation to train enough "mature captains" quickly.
>
>Chinese airlines are filling in with expatriates. Tim Shattock,
>chief executive of Parc Aviation Ltd., a Dublin firm that leases
>pilots to airlines, says "our intelligence says there are 120 to 150
>foreign pilots in mainland China."
>
>India counts more. Deregulation has spawned startup airlines, an
>influx of international flights, and 20% annual passenger growth.
>India expects to need 2,500 new pilots by 2010. At Jet Airways, the
>nation's largest private carrier, 111 of its 685 pilots are foreign.
>Air Deccan has 75 foreigners among its 250 pilots, and is setting up
>its own flight school in Bangalore.
>
>Compensation for the foreign gigs varies widely. But it is often
>better than what U.S. pilots can earn at home, where pay levels and
>benefits have been reduced by bankruptcy filings and restructurings.
>Richard Paul, an 18-year US Airways veteran who was bumped from
>captain to first officer during one round of layoffs, says he plans
>to quit soon and report for training to fly cargo at a large Asian
>carrier he declines to identify. The 46-year-old pilot says he will
>start as a first officer, but "in four or five years, I'll probably
>be a captain on a 747 and make twice as much" as the $72,000 a year
>he currently earns.
>
>India's Air Deccan is offering $8,000 to $15,000 a month to foreign
>captains, according to Mr. Gopinath, the managing director. A
>captain in the U.S. on Northwest's smallest jet earns about $9,000 a
>month, while a captain on United Airlines's largest plane earns
>about $15,000, according to a recent survey by Air Inc.
>
>American Craig Harnden, formerly a pilot for now-defunct Eastern
>Airlines, has worked overseas since 1990 for Saudi Arabian Airlines,
>Thai Airways International and now Singapore Airlines. "If I had
>known what I know now, I would probably have left Eastern and gone
>overseas a lot earlier," says the 59-year-old Miami native, who
>lives in Singapore. "But we didn't leave the airlines because of the
>seniority system."
>
>William Goodwin left the U.S. in 1994 after working for two airlines
>that went under and a third that was acquired. He says he nearly
>doubled his pay by moving to Taiwan to captain 767s for Taipei-based
>EVA Air. "It was the smartest thing I've ever done," he says. He
>jumped to Korean Air in 2000, where as a captain of 747s he earns
>$152,000 a year after Korean taxes. The 54-year-old pilot says he
>hopes to stay until he retires at 60.
>
>Mr. Baedke, the former Northwest pilot who now flies out of Honolulu
>for Jalways under a crew-leasing contract, says he's trying to
>spread the word to other American pilots. Many of his pilot friends,
>he says, were laid off after 9/11 and have not yet been called back.
>
>As a first officer, Mr. Baedke earns $100 an hour, or $105,000 last
>year. He expects to begin training next month to become a captain, a
>process he says could take 2.5 years. If he succeeds, his pay will
>climb to $150 an hour for the first 50 hours flown each month, and
>$180 an hour for anything exceeding that.
>
>He no longer gives much thought to returning to Northwest. "Even if
>I had a chance to go back, I think I'd be at [a regional subsidiary]
>as a first officer, earning $23 an hour," he says. "There's no
>point."

So how's that 767 treating you?

There are three ladies in my life. My wife, my daughter and the 767 and the later one is the only one I can control :ugh:

This article from the Wall Street Journal is a must read...
xxx
It should be the answer to all USA wannabees who ask "how to become a pilot".
xxx
Also the answer to pilots from the rest of the world who ask "How to be a pilot in USA" and get a visa.
How about a visa to work at a "7-Eleven"...??? Wages are better...
Leave the USA to the 12 million "undocumented" aliens, let them fly planes and speak Spanish in US airspace...
xxx
I left the USA for Argentina in 1993... so far, 14 years of happiness...
Nice people here, red carpet treatment, great food (fast food unknown)...
Nor for the money, but being treated as a human being by a decent airline.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

I agree.. as a US citizen and FAA licensed pilot, I left the states due to lack of job availability and to continue to travel and see the world.. so right now I'm in China, but I'm leaving in a week to CNMI, and I'll continue my aviation career doing charter flights... I'm not doing this for money, but money is a big part of it. I make more right now than I ever did as a flight instructor in the states, and that's still more than any F/O position in any US-based regional airline

Would we ever see DECs or DEFOs in the USA from abroad? Including the INS (Inmigration and Naturalization Service) approving work permits?

I sure hope so myself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers!
AA

All of you who want to be airline pilots in USA, read this...
www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php.t?=288355
You must be out of your mind to try to join airlines in USA, with such conditions well described by this text from the Wall Street Journal.
xxx
When I arrived in USA (issued a "Green Card" in 1968), it was a paradise, the pay was above average, that country meant "liberty" and it was the "land of milk and honey".
Nothing is left of all that... This is 2007, not the 1960s...
All you see is Hollywood idiot movies and CNN indoctrination...
The "good life" - fast food McDonald's or "French restaurants" like Jacques in ze boxe...
xxx
All the USA is, now, is a good place to train to get a pilot licence...
When PanAm declared bankruptcy in 1991, I lost a fortune in retirement investments.
I could not even continue my career as 747 captain with another US air carrier. All they offered me is to be a 727 F/E...
I was forced to sell my house and car, and declare personal bankruptcy.
xxx
Salaries of low cost US carriers or regionals are dismal. For years you will be a F/O for a yearly salary (and rare benefits) of some $25,000, in a country where an average house will cost you $250,000+ to buy. And maybe like me, you will furloughed many years and forced to work in other countries.
xxx
Why not be an airline pilot in another nation, at a salary of $75,000/year, or its equivalent in rupees, dirhams or pesos (it does not matter), and be able to buy a house or apartment for $100,000, in a nice area, and enjoy life as a upper class individual and respected professional, with all the benefits offered there, medical insurances, high retirement, and liberal travel benefits...?
xxx
I left USA in 1992 for good...
To make room for idiots who want to go there.
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

BelArgUsa, wow you sound pretty hurt!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, I could not open the link you sent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers,

AA

P.S. I don't see myself as an idiot for hopping to go to the States for a flying job!!

USA have changed a lot and many guys in their 50-60 told me the same.
USA is a great country to discover for 1-2 years, but I am very sad for all these citizen who are stuck and brainwashed in the USA for life and who still believe it is the best place.
People go to USA thinking they are going to be rich in 2 months. That's all !

Dartagnan:

Who was naiive enough to believe that they could get rich in the US as a pilot, whether after two months or twenty years, unless they became very fortunate with real estate or another investment?

Airlines either negotiate pay rates based upon motivating their staff to work harder, for the long term, or pay only enough to "fill c0ckp1t seats", no matter how bad the turnover (loss of pilots) is. Many companies simply do not care.
This last method explains why not many pilots show up for class at the lowest-paying regionals etc.

Airlines are usually focused upon short-term or long-term goals, but often not both.

Without ALPA we would be working for less than peanuts and at the mercy of the airlines. We PILOTS are partly to blame for our spineless actions when it comes to dealing with management. Eventhough there is a shortage of qualified pilots and flights are being cancelled we have not been able raise the payrates. I don't see a silver lining around the cloud for future aviators.

The link requires a page value thus:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=288355&page=1


that should work ....

Thank you for the corrected link, boogie-nicey, it is the one that I use to verify my sorry opinion of USA pilot employment situation. Every word in that Wall Street Journal report is correct. Many US pilots bail-out for jobs overseas.
xxx
Yes, many pilots in my age bracket (50-60) - that many of you youngsters, are keen to insult in response to sound advice - have the same opinions as I have... If 20 of age again, yes, I would train in the USA for a licence, but not seek employment in USA under any circumstance.
xxx
There might be a (qualified) pilot shortage now in the USA... but plenty of pilots with CPL-IR-ME and 250 Cessna/Heavy hours are available. All these are busy playing CFI to share their superior aeronautical knowledge and experience to other young student pilots in US flight schools. The more qualified pilots, with ATPL and 2,000 hrs are finding underpaid F/O employment with the commuter carriers that bear an emblem of American, Delta or United on the tail... but that is not flying for AA, DAL or UAL... These more experienced F/Os are teamed with commuter captains, having what (?) 6 months extensive experience in the left seat of a Brasilia or CRJ... The blind leading the blind... I wish the passengers knew the level of experience of some of these crews...
xxx
Maybe, there will be a "hiring craze" in the next 2 years, 5,000 of you pilots will be hired.
Now, let me give you my point of view on your career horoscope of your next 25 years as "airline pilot"...
* You will be hired next year (having spent $80,000 to get there) to be a CRJ F/O, very low pay.
* In 2011, you will become a captain on that CRJ, surviving with your salary.
* Motel 6 near airports, commuting 3 times a month, maybe a divorce...
* In 2012, you will be hired by Delta, the "real Delta" and be a 737 F/O...
* First year wages again, commuting again.
* In 2014, 10,000 pilots layoffs, because USA will declare war against Iran (?) or Zimbabwe (?)
* Furlough until 2018, during which you will be... a CFI (maybe?)... moving 3 times, remarried...
* Recalled, you will pass the next 10 years as F/O on the 787... wages start to be ok in 2025 (maybe?)...
* Your airline will merge with another... loss of seniority for "the other list"...
* And finally you will be captain in 2027... forced to move again. Retirement will come in 2035...
* Hopefully your wife will have a little store selling mobile phones and perfumes to survive...
Is that what you call a career of a professional?...
xxx
No thanks - USA, thank you... I prefer to fly A380s for Patagonian Air Service.
:)
Happy contrails

BelArgUSA...there are in the US

130,234 commercial pilots
144,681 airline transport pilotsreading only a small fraction of what these people go through does not mean the entire industry will be affected, i have read these articles but it just not seem possible for that many people to be laid off...maybe 10-12 years ago or past that but technology brings increased demand and it is bringing an entire new age in travel

BelArgUSA, that is quite some story and commentary with regards to the 'modern' aviation professional. I guess most fresh wannabes are well and truely hypnotised by the allure of aviation yet fail to fully comprehend the rather adverse affects on their life as a whole, such as marriage, wealth and indeed health. People seem to have the nose so close to the paper they don't see the page which comes around to bite them in later life.

I have read some of your posts on other threads too and the general theme appears to be the same, one of caution with an appreciation of reality. However I see the pilot numbers in coming years and indeed decades falling as most of todays wannabes/junior pilots grew up in the 70s, 80s where avaiation wasn't vilified and a 'man's country' image to it. Today in our fuddy -duddy culture of cotton wool and spectre of global green issues alot of today's youth will shy awy from aviation and head for sports reflexology therapy! :ok:

Anyway thanks once BelArgUSA, really appreciate that honest appraisal from someone inside the industry.

Dear Dynasty22 /
xxx
My answer to you is that the 1973 October War in the Middle East, caused a terrible crisis in the US airline industry in 1974 through 1979... I do not have the statistics, but I would say that some 20-25% of the entire airline pilot group got furloughed starting late 1973 (I was among those pilots). It only got back to "normal" and airlines hiring in the late 1980s...
xxx
Shall we talk about the de-regulation of 1978... and the numerous airline bankruptcies, such as Braniff, Eastern, PanAm, which were major airlines. Also how many airlines were new, how many got out of business. Of the new entrants in the late 1970s, only one is succesful - SouthWest Airlines... Well over 20 or 30 airlines started, and disappeared within 2 or 3 years in the 1980s and 1990s...
xxx
In view of your age (no criticism of your young age), ask your parents about the lines at the gas stations all across the country in 1973/74, gas rationing, even licence plates could buy gas on even days etc...
xxx
You mention 100,000+ airline pilots... I dont have the latest ALPA figures, but 65,000 ring a bell to me for ALPA members, add to that near 10,000 with APA and 10,000 with the Teamsters... Funny is, in the listing of "active pilots" in the FAA pilot list that I have access to, I found my name/address/ratings, yet my FAA/ATPL has been inactive since 1993... So these statistics are not very accurate. How many pilot certificate holders are current, not that many.
xxx
My young friend, you are certainly an airline enthusiast, and you know all there is to be known about airplanes, being a pilot... but you should have a look at the US airline history and economics since 1945... There were a lot of drastic bad times, sorry to say.
xxx
You are enthusiastic as I said, and an optimist. I am the opposite. I see now the US airline industry from far away, and nothing appears to be good. Sadly, the chances for a young pilot to have a "great career" as airline pilot in USA are possibly less than 20, maybe 30% at best... another 20 or 30% will "survive" with low wages for their entire career, and nearly 50% will eventually abandon their ailine dreams.
xxx
I have a son, he just turned 18 of age... He as a PPL, just finished his I/R and will soon get CPL and ME, doing his training in Florida. Under NO circumstances will I permit him to seek employment with a US airline, based on my personal career experience. Beware of USA and Middle East politics. There is another "Vietnam" in the making, but you would not know about that era... probably will have even worse consequences...
xxx
I have a good friend with PIA Pakistan Airlines, that I trained to fly in jets many years ago. He is now a 737 captain. With his wages, he owns a little car and lives in Karachi, owns a beautiful large house, with 2 living-in servants, a cook and a maid. His standard of living is beyond the dreams of most US airline pilots, particularly those who are suffering the wages of LCC and commuter air carriers.
xxx
A word about USA economy... In 1983, the US Dollar was worth 2 of the present day equivalent in Euros. Nowadays, a US Dollar is worth 70 Euro cents, in other terms the dollar is worth 1/3 of what it was 25 years ago. You want to be a pilot...? OK... but look for a career overseas, not in the US. When all will go to hell in the next years, the US carriers will furlough again, and gasoline at $6.oo a gallon will mean the end of the Hummers, and the large 6-liter-engine SUVs which I see all the time when I visit Miami... The only airlines that will not be affected (maybe) will be cargo carriers...
xxx
Listen to a pilot who has spent 38 years of his life with airlines...
All the best to you...
:)
Happy contrails

enthusiast maybe but i am employed by a us carrier as an aviation mgt degree +5 yr and switching over to piloting...but how much longer before planes will be flying on alternative fuels and already evolving fuel efficient aircraft have the Middle East as a problem...besides that is not even my age...must of been a typo on my part

The few reasons I'm not flying in the US (I'm US Citizen and FAA licensed) is because of the following:

1) Job Security
2) Low Pay for regionals
3) There is more to the world than the US

The only airlines I would fly for is major airline Cargo, Fed Ex, UPS, Atlas, NWA Cargo, etc etc.. but since I'm in no hurry to fly a 747 (Even though I want to fly MD11s) I'm happy being an expat flying piston'd charters

As a career pilot in the US and a lifelong resident, I must agree. The industry went to sh!t. There are some decent opportunities worldwide, and if the market for pilots gets tighter elsewhere, I'd go for it myself.

We are not respected here. They raid our retirements here. They steal our family health care coverage here. They use bankruptcy laws to abrogate our labor agreements here, and use our wages as a cushion for management ineptitude. And that's just the major items.

I've had the privilege of meeting a few promising young CFI's at the flight school I hang out at. A few have gone overseas to some decent positions. They have the right idea.

Why do I hang out at a flight school? Because as a 737 Capt., I have to supplement my wages in order to support my family, so I do some advanced instruction. The owner is a nice guy that doesn't mind letting me use his planes. I enjoy teaching, and it's my own deal, which I like - but it does prove a point: the good old days ended a quarter century ago. It just plane sucks now.

If I could afford to retire early in a few years, I would, provided that there were a very good small company which operated whichever jets or turboprops and wanted to treat their staff well (and have good commuting policies). It is difficult to want to leave the country with various older and much younger family not too far away ("Sweet home...).

I've not yet heard of any smaller airlines having intelligent, (long-term) committed managements, except for two or three exceptions.
There will be far too many FOs at NetJets waiting to upgrade by then.

I apologize if this has already been covered, but I read the thread and couldn't find much on it.

I am a US Navy pilot flying C-9s (McDonnell Douglas 30 series).

I was raised in Europe and am intent on flying there someday, but have absolutely no idea where to start. I've been told that none of my ratings count, but surely my hours do????

If ANYONE can shed some light on this topic for me, and perhaps forward some links that would be useful, it would be greatly appreciated.

I've looked briefly at Virgin Atlantic and British Airways. How do these stack up to US airlines? I can't seem to find a payscale anywhere.

We are not respected here. They raid our retirements here. They steal our family health care coverage here. They use bankruptcy laws to abrogate our labor agreements here, and use our wages as a cushion for management ineptitude. And that's just the major items.


At 42 I just could not see myself accepting a position that was offered to me in one of the legacies and take a 2/3 paycut in comparison with my job at a regional, (you read it correctly 2/3 paycut) and the sad thing about it is that it would have taken 6 years just to break even, "I've decided not to take that class date thank you" :rolleyes:And another airline called recently telling my wife that I should call HR. I haven't even returned their call, For what? Take a big paycut and start at the bottom?:=
The hell with it, I just went for the contract gig and if it doesn't work? I'm done with flying. After 24 years I've had just about enough airplanes to last me a lifetime.

Sorry for the venting:eek:

TheDominican, why not spread your wings further afield as BelArgUSA says. Perhaps you could venture down to the middle east where a plethora of new carriers have sprung up over the last few years whilst others are undergoing a rapid expansion. The pay will be better and you won't be dragged down by union negotiations that just fail to alleviate the longer term financial woes.

This is very interesting thread. Thanks to all of you who shared your knowledge.

I'm a Swedish citizen who will take my ratings in the US next year. Lets say I would like to go againt the stream and want to work in the US for the hours. Is that possbile now that so many US pilot are leaving the country? Will it be easier to get a work permit?

I'm afraid not. The U.S. pilots who are leaving are fully qualified airline pilots with thousands of hours in jets. New pilots like yourself will not have an easier time getting into the country and working because of American pilots seeking jobs elsewhere.

I'm forced to agree with all of you recommending against working as a pilot in the U.S.
I am a dual citizen ( Swedish, US) having been lucky enough to get on with a major U.S carrier in the early 90's. I spent 2.5 years on furlough before being recalled and then, of course, the aftermath of 9/11 with more furloughs, bankruptcies and resulting loss of pensions. Although my airline escaped the most recent wave of bankruptcies I have no illusions as to what the future holds.
I am now a wide body co-pilot with a decent salary( only because I'm single) looking at captain upgrade at my base in perhaps 4 years. That will be 19 years to captain. I plan on retiring at 50 and take my services overseas. The job simply doesn't hold much allure anymore with cranky employees, greedy and indifferent management and seniority stagnation unknown even in the 1970's.
I would encourage all future aspiring pilots to stay away from the U.S market except to gain experience. The ONLY exception to this is UPS and FedEx. If you manage to get on with any of these you have certainly hit the jack pot. If not, follow the advice of other ppruners on this thread and get out. I probably will.

I recently had a commuter airline Embraer F/O from the US on board of one of my flights, and was surprised to meet an "ex-US Citizen and ex-PanAm pilot" flying an Argentina 747... and we talked airlines and wages and career the whole flight...
xxx
He is a second year F/O on Bandeirantes... he is 27 years old, and told me that he spent nearly $100,000 in training before he got hired by an "almost airline" (my name for a commuter air carrier). He still goes to college to get a 4 years degree, so to qualify for a major US carrier.
xxx
He told me about his wages... US$24,000/year which is at today's exchange rate UK Sterling = 12,000 Pounds/year, or 17,200 Euros/year... He cannot afford to live at his base (due to rental rates) so, he lives with his parents, and spends approximately 20 nights monthly in a motel near the airport at his base. The motel rate for the room is $39 per night... oh yes, he has a medical insurance (but the first $1,000 of medical expenses for each calendar year are not covered, nor pharmaceuticals)... Oh yes, his income tax must be around 15-20% of his gross income (how "gross" is the money he is left with...???) -
xxx
He was surprised that we do not charge for drinks and peanuts on our flight...
...and... he gave me his pilot resume (C.V.)...
xxx
:)
Happy contrails

BelArgUSA,

I have been following your post for sometime. I am a ex-Pan Am pilot I flew the B727 out of DCA. I am a PROUD USA citizen and I went throught the same crap you did.

I hate how you criticize the USA for the airline problems! I found a great flying job here in the USA not in some Third world hole. I own a house on Cape Cod, Condo in Charleston SC, and I manage to buy the wife a fancy convertable. Amazing, all in the USA! The US is not responsible for your problems, it was poor management in a Capitalist sytem. Blame the managers and the idiots who run the airlines. Blame ALPA for your problems! You signed off on Seniority, you decided to live in LA. So, when Pan Am went to the grave on December 4, 1991, so did our seniority. So blame ALPA for not being able to find a B747 Capt position at United. I managed to find a great corporate job that gave me a better life than Pan Am.

I miss Pan Am but I REALLY don't miss your types.. Good Riddens and bid another route/country. America will be a better place without you and the Mexicans

Cheers,

Cessnaxdriver

CessnaAxDriver and US Ppruners:

How about a debate about this industry.
I agree, in general, with various observations made by BelArgUsa, and-too a limited extent-can understand Cessna's resistance to criticism of US govt decisions by someone who grew up elsewhere. But he worked for years for a US major airline. Here are my criticisms of some previous US govt decisions and policies and do not speak for anybody else. Some of these policies and laws still exist as our industry races to the bottom. Some of the fault lies with the fact that different MECs live in a vacuum to a large extent when they
battle Upper Mgmts.

Let's first clarify that this US industry was never deregulated. That is a deception for the American public, created under the smoke of the (Democratic) Carter Administration, and sponsored to an extent by Democratic Senator Kennedy, partly motivated by his desire to improve air service within his tiny "Republic of Massachusetts" and between its many city pairs. Blame should be shared by both major parties-stay tuned.

I am a native US citizen and was hired into a turbofan right seat in 1985.
The airlines have never operated in a political vacuum. The huge anti-labor advantages (proper in a so-called "advanced industrialized nation"? ) given to some airline Upper Mgmts by the Reagan, Bush Sr and other administrations should have been a scandal. Former Professor Alfred Kahn (the US 'guru' of airline dereg.), who advised the US Congress on the benefits on partial deregulation with his convoluted and bizarre theories received very lucrative
stock in New York Air, and there were comments in "Aviation Week & ST" that this stock was somehow connected with his successful arguments before Congress in 1977 or '78.

US laws and a few White House Chief Executives enabled charming slime to abuse our profession using numerous legal methods. At the top of this slime heap (Misthaufen) stands Mr. Frank Lorenzo ("Frankie Smooth-Talk"), who set a historical precedent by his exploitation of bankruptcy laws (he understood the political landscape, via Ronald Reagan, as Wellington understood Waterloo's layout better than Napoleon) in order to void the Continental labor contracts. We have not made too much progress since the early 80's. Several top DOT Administrative Judges made very favorable rulings for Texas Air Corporation, and then quickly went to work for TAC (against labor?). Just a coincidence, I suppose.;)

The US federal laws which allowed airlines to grossly underfund our pension funds should also be a national shame and scandal. But what mindboggling complexity, even for most of us who went beyond Jethro Bodine's level of education.
These are just a few of the realities, allowed by decades of politicians sticking it to aviation professionals (CO, Eastern etc) who have given everything they could to help their airlines survive.
Sure, the creation of junk bonds in the 80s was not the fault of our US government.

But (mostly GOP) government arrogance towards our profession (because we are neither management nor major stockholders) would have had little effect if this industry operated inside a vacuum.
I would never apologize for what such meddling has done, either directly or indirectly, to our airline industry.
A relative lost part of his pension due to an airline "White Knight"-enabled by US laws which had existed for decades. I would never apologize for that either.

By the way, is it not true that of the three (3) people on the PBGC (the pseudo-private govt pension corporation), two (2) of those people also have decisive roles within the govt-run ATSB (Air Trans. Stabilization Board), which decides which US airlines deserve favorable govt. financial loans? With other industries watching how the US airlines lean heavily on the PBGC, they have joined the game (let future generations worry about the immense debts). If that is true, is that situation not a major potential conflict of interest?
If these situations are/were true, it would never be my decision to apologize for such.
If these situations are mistaken, I will gladly stand corrected.

In my opinion, BelArgUSA's observations can be valid no matter where he was born, whether Ruhpolding, Bavaria...Brugge, Belgium or Olathe, Kansas. He appeared to have worked for years as an airline pilot here. I can name only three airline (or former) CEOs who had the instr., multi- and maybe a type rating: Bethune (CO:757, via his Boeing job), Arpey (AMR: flying his familiy in an Aztec or Twin Comanche), and Mr. Mickelson (Am Trans Air). Heck...some US-born academics and others are given credit as "aviation consultents", almost none of of whom had any operational job in US civil aviation, whether as mechanic, pilot etc.

I know several mainline pilots who are leaving all their seniority behind, frpm ages 41 to age 52, in order to join other airlines as new-hires (Fedex, UPS, Emirates) or leave the career altogether! One studies and has a family, to pursue a career as a Nurse Anesthesiologist. This almost never happened years ago. These guys have been full-time pilots for at least 18 years or so. An FO I've worked with is on the backed-up interview list for one of those companies. They want to work for companies in careers where people are not spat upon, and the airlines etc have leadership and the intelligence/integrity to plan and execute long-term corporate strategies. When jumpseating on Fedex, notice the very good morale of their ground- and flightcrews. It leaves me quite envious after I leave their facilities. This company is too arrogant to care, unless hundreds of flights are cancelled...the Board of Directors finally pull their heads out of their a@<hidden>@<hidden>@<hidden>@<hidden>, find some backbone (?) and notice: I see why they need such total wimps on the Board. Prove me wrong.

Most top officials in the DOT, FAA and elsewhere NEVER worked as a pilot or as a controller, mechanic etc. They chose to never even require a scheduled rest period for reserve/standby crews until after bodies were removed from the MD-82 at LIT. The FAA was never primarily funded by nor directly manipulated by a foreign government (i.e. the US congress and the White House anti-labor political agenda).
I have a one-day trip today and need time to fly the simulated Hurricane, P-38 or Bf-110 against some bogies or FLAK. Yep, a sign of early dementia, but at least it is VFR flying that some of us can afford. Tot ziens and au revoir.

The last 3 posts were deleted for various reasons. I have posted a reminder of the terms which you all agreed to when joining the Professional Pilots Rumour Network.
And now back to the topic at hand...

Cessnadriver

Did you know of a guy called niel nordquist in PA. He was 747.

I have been trying to track him down.

Regards

Hi!
Mesa is about ready to shut down, because of a lack of pilots.

Pinnacle and Mesaba are hiring captains off the street. They start out making about $60K first year. TT required is about 2500.

EVERY regional in the US is hiring guys with less than 500 hrs TT. NO ONE has to be a flight instructor, unless you want to. And, if you want to, you can make $40K+ as a flight instructor for the Ab-Initio schools out west.

The airline I fly for hired 2 guys with less than 400 hours Total Time. Starting pay is $34K. I was hired at about 2000 TT. 5 year captain pay is $92/hour. My buddy has worked here about 7-8 years, and he has over $150K in his retirement account. Another guy just left us for Emirates. He was offered DEC on the -777.

A buddy of mine went to Kalitta (747s-requiring 4000 TT) and made over $100K as an FO.

NetJets requires 2500 TT. Their new base pay, if you take the 7/7 schedule will be $60K. If you take the 18 day work schedule, you will make $75K first year as an FO. Top pay at NetJets will be well over $200K.

As a current US airline pilot, you won't make as much as you did in the '70s. HOWEVER, you can easily make more than 90% of people in the world, in a reasonable amount of time.

If you think it's crap, don't come here. If you're lucky enough to live in India or China, do your flight training there and fly there-they need you.

cliff
KLRD

PS-I have been working in the US for 24 years, in 5 career fields. Now that I am working in the airlines, I am making the most I have ever made, and it's by FAR the best job I've had. I do NOT work at a major airline. That would be MUCH better than where I'm at, and pay a LOT more.

PPS-If you don't want to fly PAX, then the top 3 are: FedEx, UPS and Atlas/Polar.

EVERY regional in the US is hiring guys with less than 500 hrs TT. NO ONE has to be a flight instructor, unless you want to. And, if you want to, you can make $40K+ as a flight instructor for the Ab-Initio schools out west.

Not every regional is hiring with less then 500, skw, express jet, horizon to name a few.

The airline I fly for hired 2 guys with less than 400 hours Total Time. Starting pay is $34K. I was hired at about 2000 TT. 5 year captain pay is $92/hour. My buddy has worked here about 7-8 years, and he has over $150K in his retirement account. Another guy just left us for Emirates. He was offered DEC on the -777.

A buddy of mine went to Kalitta (747s-requiring 4000 TT) and made over $100K as an FO.
There is no way he made over 100k at kalitta unless he is an extremely sr guy (they start out at first year$57, 64, 74, 77/hr)

oicur12,

I was a 727 driver out of DCA, but that name sounds very familar! Did he reside around Boston?

Xdriver

Hi!

The Kalitta guy was a 2nd year FO. $100K was NOT his base pay. He worked extra, and earned it.

C U!

cliff
KYIP

Cessnadriver,

He was JFK based (I think) but lived in northern CA.

Small world huh.

ATP Cliff:

Your information is quite accurate and reflects what several RJ pilots have recently told me.

ATP Cliff,

I know a lot of RJ guys & Freight Dogs looking at overseas contracts/airlines.
Many of us are getting tired of how US airlines are poorly managed. Moral is literally in the toilet. With airlines in the Middle East, India, China, Japan and Korea all hiring and the Fractional jobs in the States, the US Airlines will be hurting for pilots as more of us go overseas or fly biz-jets in the States.

Hi!

Pinnacle (Northwest Airlink) has a pipeline of guys going to Emirates. My buddy is leaving for there in 2 weeks-he´s VERY excited.

Good luck to you!

cliff
pdc (Playa del Carmen, Mexico)

ATPCliff:
The guy at Emirates who is/was reportedly in charge of hiring pilots is Mr. E* D*******.
He was a NWA DTW Chief Pilot a few years ago.
Reportedly, is the key word. Several pilots have claimed this to have been true. Maybe it was never true.

Ignition Override,

In post #147, October 6th 2007, you said

"Let's first clarify that this US industry was never deregulated."

What, in your opinion, happened back in the fall of 1978?

What was your involvement with aviation prior to the fall of 1978?

Mr E* D******* is not in charge of hiring pilots at Emirates and his NWA background is of no signifigance to this subject.
Emirates does need a lot of pilots, they need them now and in the future but you don't get hired just by showing up.

Greetings misd-agin:

My comments were meant to describe US deregulation as only partial deregulation, and they are admittedly selective and quite brief, due to the desire to compress the descriptions here.
From Wikipedia:
"Essential Air Service subsidies effective 10 years from enactment". We flew to some of those towns in the EMB-110 and SD3-30/60.
"...CAB was authorized to grant antitrust immunity to air carriers".
But mergers require Department of Justice approval.

In "Airline Deregulation: The Unfinished Revolution" by R.W. Poole Jr. and Viggo Butler:
"In deregulation, Congress unleashed market forces on one segment of the air travel system-but failed to free up the critical infrastructure on which airlines depend, namely the airports and the air traffic control system.
These essential elements of the air travel system remain not only govt.-controlled, but government-owned."

These comments are certainly selective but appear to be valid in the general sense, based upon everything written about our system in "Aviation Week", the "Wall Street Journal" and observed by the older guys in the left seat years ago, many of whom started flying in the early 70s or earlier. Few line pilots seem to have had inside government contacts who could provide objective inside information on the entire process. At least none that I ever heard of when the retired older guys were working here years ago. They noticed how our careers were not helped by White House favoritism given to Mr. Lorenzo from about 1980-1992 or so. The strong tendency of aspiring airline pilots to believe in the self-delusion that "rugged individualism" (the myth we absorbed from John Wayne movies) and self-promotion are more important than pilot profession solidarity have eroded this profession, being two very basic human elements which have been exploited year after year by many airlines and developed into an art form.

A bankruptcy attorney who was retained by our company told a fellow crewmember that their job during Chapter 11 negotiations was to make our jobs almost bad enough for people not to want to come to work (the present staff or the future outsourced?).Have we seen the bottom yet?
No 'patriotic motives' or political leanings can camouflage this reality. Two pilot interviewees were on the airport shuttle yesterday. After they got off, another older pilot here was surprised that guys would want to give up a Captain's seat somewhere to be brand-new again, face very hard work during Init. Tng for just $29/hour the first year, and not much more during the 2nd year (flying 100-125 seat jets).

Speaking of "Aviation Leak", it quoted "alleged";) pressure inside the FAA's Western Region to allow certain "irregularities" (or did it say advantages?) during the CO strike against Lorenzo in '83-84". The issue could probably be researched in a university library after trolling the Internet. The local one has good flight safety articles in the old "MAC Flyer" (now AMC), maybe copies of "Approach" magazine (these are often on the Internet).

"Alleged" decisions by former DOT Admin. Law judges who immediately went to work for either CO or TAC right after favorable rulings for Texas Air Corporation appeared to be interesting coincidences, as described by "Aviation Week & ST".
The so-called "quasi-private" PBGC and the ATSB are basically government entities.
Professional bureaucrats and attorneys might better describe this with the correct terminology and accuracy.

I earned my Private license in '78, then went into the AFRES, flying civilian turboprops in '83, then turbofans from '85 to the present. I'm just a regular line pilot with no legal or govt experience.
As our careers (in the US) race to the bottom, it is interesting that so many pilots seem to be leaving this country for what are apparently good jobs overseas.

I did not realize the 380 was already flying for Fedex.

Ignition Override -

I don't understand how you can say the industy wasn't deregulated. Air carriers can fly anywhere they want to within the U.S. It wasn't like that prior to 1978. I got my first commuter job in 1978 due to deregulation.

Did all regulation go away? Of course not. FAA, IRS, SEC, etc, etc still exist. Slots have the largest impact on carriers ability to fly into whatever city they choose(ie JFK in 2008....). But the airline business is amazingly different than it was in the 70's due to deregulation.

If you want to understand what the business was before deregulation consider the current process to gain international flying rights. You apply, along with many other carriers and eventually the government says - "you win, everyone else loses."

Flew EMB-110's 1981-1982.

atiuta,

Nobody was challenging you as to whether Emirates was easy to get into or not. I can tell you this though...the CX interview was a #ell of a lot harder than the EK interview (did both).

get off the high horse dude...more of us Americans are coming over to the UAE (Halliburton just relocated to Dubai, etc)...get used to it.

misd-agin:

True- it was mostly deregulated, but it just seems to me that with so much inside maneuvering by the PBGC, ATSB etc, not to mention White House agendas pushing on the DOT (FAA), which together with the various commercial (don't forget about the ATA-the airline Upper Mgmt 'union') forces of deregulation in recent years are almost designed to crush labor, despite the growth of many jobs in the early 80s. The ability of corporations to grossly under-fund pensions has appeared to be another element to exploit labor to the benefit of stockholder's/Upper Mgmt.
The terrible events at USAir seemed to reflect this almost overwhelming stacking of the decks against labor staff.
Former Professor Alfred Kahn's bizarre and-at best-murky theories about the benefits of deregulation are not only mostly theoretical and abstract but he 'allegedly' ;) received either
TAC or New York Air stock (or a seat on the Board of Dir.? )before
deregulation was set up. If it could be proven, that would have been a major conflict of interest.

The lack of a national seniority system by ALPA decades ago has allowed each pilot group to be separately conquered-each airline's pilot group mostly stands alone. The net effect is similar to having a different union at each company.

I'm not so sure that the Dereg. Act's policy to give preference to laid off staff
was effective. Or was it? There seem to many Braniff pilots who got interviews fairly quickly with majors. If the majors were required to allow Braniff and others into interviews (allowing them to be hired first) in the short-term, then that was a very good thing.

Pardon the long-winded sermon up there.
That Bandit was a really good plane. Wish I could still fly one a few hours a month. Could 'sync.' those props easier than 'those' on a P & W JT8D-9.

Hi!

Deregulated? No. We're still feeling the effects of deregulation, even now, because it was not done.

Deregulation would've meant that, on the date of deregulation, NO airline would have any route rights, gate rights, or landing slot rights.

On that day, every foreign and domestic route would've been opened to the highest bidder. Every gate, at every US airport, and an foreign gates with a US carrier would have gone to the highest bidder, and every landing slot would've gone to the highest bidder.

The above did NOT happen. All the carriers flying foreign routes go to keep their routes. Existing gateholders and slotholders got to keep them also.

This meant that those airlines were given, by the US government, valuable assets that an airline trying to enter a market had to buy with cash. If we wanted to deregulate the airline industry, we should've. BUT, instead, we left HUGE barriers to start-up airlines, that exist to this day.

If FULL deregulation had actually ocurred, the US aviation industry would be DRASTICALLY different than it is today. We may have even avoided the 911 meltdown, because the whole structure would've been WAY more efficient.
cliff
pdc (Playa del Carmen, Mexico)

I would like to do get a FAA CFI certificate. And I knew that passing rate for CFI course is quite low. :bored:

However, my time is running short and does not permit me to stay long in U.S. :sad: Therefore, I would like to know whether is there any school able to pass student to get CFI certificate "easily".

Money is not an issue. I hope to complete the CFI course within my time and leave U.S.

Kindly 'private message' to me if you have any recommendation. Millions of thanks!

Hi!

I would check out All ATPs, or find a local FBO with an instructor who was full time and could devote all his time to you in the next month or so.

http://www.atpflightschool.com/

cliff
GRB

is that true in the USA they are desperate to find pilots???.

I got advertising from airnet.com who offer 3000$/month, and 1000$ during training.

too nice to be true, when in europe, you have to pay for type rating and hours building.

I remember the time when a 1500h instructor had to fight with 50 other applicants to fly a c150.


Do US companies apply now for green card?work permit?

Yes you have to get this Green card...
I've tried to get it twice :ugh: maybe this year I will be lucky! :}

just forget about this green card lottery, since it is online, you have million of applicants for 50'000 green cards only. which give you a chance of less than 1%.

the USA has f...d their immigration system which is obsolete with illegal immigrants coming every day by thousand:ugh:.(they check us when arriving in the USA when in the other hand 2000 illegal :eek: cross the border everyday with no documents but guns and drug for some, so what is that???it is now easier to be illegal in the USA than to deal with the US immigration which ask you now over 1000$ for a work permit if you are eligible )

They need to reform all agencies, or open boundaries with europe and canada and stop to f... up their citizen. That's the only way to save us cuz continuing like this, it is NOT going to work for very long , believe me!.

USA is in decline and soon it will be a third world country once fuel will be at 4$-5$ the gallon.

Hi!

Yes, the US immigration system is totally screwed.

Yes, there is a massive shortage of pilots developing in the US. A number of airlines are increasing pay and giving the pilots better contracts to keep them. The ones that don't are losing pilots left and right, because there's so many jobs. Mesa, one of the worst US airlines (they fly feed for United, Delta and US Air), was losing about 70 pilots per month. In the first two weeks of NOV, they lost over 80!

cliff
KYIP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A

1500$/month before tax(1200$ after tax=60$/day, average 6$ an hour!!!), 12hours work a day, 2 weeks vacation, no loss of license insurance, high mortage rate on housing,...

you can not make a living with that!:ugh:
once in a major, if you do it, they ask for a 4 years bachelor degree, high competition.
Working as a cfi for peanuts then working for a regional for peanuts again and starting your career at 40+ yo(in a major) not knowing if your company will file bankrupt chapter 11 and lose your job and be back to the regional with a peanuts salary , all this is a big gamble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCgF62oawFI
No wonder no one wants to be a pilot anymore.
Even illegal Mexican refuse to be paid so low!!!!:E

still better to do cargo for UPS at 3000$ a month.

Hey Capt. Seth,

Try flying a Caravan in icing. I'd trade places any day.

It's me, freight dog!

How did I get here? How the hell do I get outta here?

:ugh:

Hi Dartagnan -

I agree that the US immigration system needs some real work. But if you think arriving through the International Arrivals Hall at JFK (or wherever) is a raw deal compared to the thousands crossing the border illegally, the answer is simple. Land in Tijuana and avail yourself of the same border crossing that the illegals use. Watch out for the barbed wire. Good luck!

That's how I got in. I've been a captain for Mesa ever since.

There is no shortage.

I finished in Canada and even tho I have 105 hrs, I went to over 30+ companies offering myself even as ground crew to get my foot into industry and all of them turned me down saying they already have tons of resumes on hold.

Shortage my arse.

Messerschmitt and Ppruners:
Among other pilots who fly for airlines with the CRJ etc, at least two Check Airmen told me about their shortages of experienced pilots. About a year ago the company paid new-hire pilots nothing until the first so-called paycheck arrived. No hotel money, no per diem (food money) etc. This recently changed somewhat.

One of the former Check Airmen told me in two different locations (in the staff shuttle and at the shoe shine stand) that he only flies trips with fairly senior FOs. He said that it was too much stress and work to perform IOE. He refused the company's offer for 150% (extra) pay to do IOE for new-hires and was
quite adamant and clear when he described the new challenges of such Initial operating Experience with pilots who just earned their multi-engine and commercial ratings. Alles klar?

His company now has created, or is beginning to create a specialized Captain Mentoring Program (I've never heard of this concept)-required by the insurance company-so that there might be a chance to later upgrade FOs with 2000 total hours to the CRJ left seat. An FO with that company who just rode on our jumpseat described the situation to us. These were all his words.
So there is not a real (experienced) pilot shortage in the US at some regionals?
An FO union rep. chatted with me two weeks ago in an airport gift shop. He said that up to 30 new-hires were expected to show up in a recent class but only 2 were in class the first day.
That sounded like a serious shortage to me.

His company was fined $2,000,000 dollars last winter by its larger airline codeshare partner because the pilot shortage had caused numerous flight cancellations. This was reported in a newspaper article which I read. That looked like quite a pilot shortage.

If this is all difficult to believe (in the US), then maybe the newspaper editor and those Check Airmen etc (one former...) created these stories like the Gebrueder Grimm Maerchen/Fairy Tales? And the other dozens of young pilots who claim similar situations pulled these stories 'out of thin air'?

If the US allowed more foreign pilots in with some sort of work visas etc or the airlines paid a good bit more for FOs, more experience would be available, but I have no idea at all how the process works. Even mainline Delta Airline reportedly had some pilots "no show" in at least one new-hire class last spring. The several major airlines with the huge hourly pay cuts (30-38%) also have trouble attracting nearly as many pilot applications as they attracted years ago. Check "AirlinePilotCentral" and research the pay about three-five years ago.
If an airline trains you to fly a city-pair for $29/hour as a turbofan FO, there is no more need for pilots to fly these legs in the First Officer seat in a 737, DC-9 or F-100 for about $90-100/hour. These larger jets will be gone soon, with far fewer openings already at the US majors. An A-319 can cost more to operate-sure tax depreciations are there for a while but so are hefty aircraft leases.
Alles klar?

Conversation with pilot married to manager of pilot recruitment at a large regional airline in the U.S. Even with dropping the hourly requirements it's getting harder and harder to find qualified pilots. Maybe there are more pilots out there but they're either not applying at this carrier or the carrier's not interested in them for reasons other than the amount of flying hours they have.

Ignition Override wrote -

His company now has created, or is beginning to create a specialized Captain Mentoring Program (I've never heard of this concept)-required by the insurance company-so that there might be a chance to later upgrade FOs with 2000 total hours to the CRJ left seat.
**********************************************************

Henson Airlines had a left seat mentoring program back in the early 1980's. Senior FO's, when paired with CKA, would fly the left seat. This was prior to their Captain's upgrade.

Pan Am had a similar program in the 1980's. I believe FO's in the top 10% of their bid status could fly left seat with approved Captains.

With PanAm...
xxx
F/O occupied the LH seat frequently... (if approved by PIC) -
It was "your leg, your left seat" policy - (and empty the ashtray) -
PanAm provided (PIC) type rating upon initial F/O qualification (upgrade from F/E).
xxx
Thrust levers handling:
Nowadays, PIC takes the throttles...
Back then, F/O takeoff, had the throttles to V1.
If the PIC wanted to reject, he slammed his hands on levers (+ your hands) to idle, and deployed reversers.
And in these blessed days of F/Es, these F/Es did set power... with accuracy.
You wanted 1.47 EPR, they got 1.47 EPR for you, before 80 kts...
Otto-throttles or not.
xxx
Nowadays it is Disneyland cockpit SOPs with most airlines...
Not mine
:)
Happy contrails

Shortage exists only among certain 'airlines' and for experienced crew... I applied to a feeder-line last week by e-mail...got a response within an hour or so asking for me to contact them by phone... before doing so i looked at their FAQs and calculated the max poss salary (900 hrs) that could be earned and quickly dumped the idea of applying... I know of a lady working for a large law company in NY whos primary resposibility is monitoring use of the copy machine and who makes almost twice the sum.
I think I'll wait for her to leave (she's pregnant) and apply for the job.

Ignition Override wrote:
If the US allowed more foreign pilots in with some sort of work visas etc or the airlines paid a good bit more for FOs, more experience would be available, but I have no idea at all how the process works.
While I agree that whichever airlines throw more money at pilots will get the most experienced, I fail to see how this will make more experience available. The industry as a whole cannot "buy" experience. Experience takes time, not money.
Bottom feeders like Mesa will be out of business in short order because of the way it treats its pilots. The CEO of that company used to brag/needle his new hire pilot classes by saying that he was obviously overpaying his pilots because everyone showed up for the indoctrination. I'll bet he's not so smug now. I bet he will be even less so when he finds he has to pay leases on a fleet of RJs that are just sitting idle because pilots no longer need his crappy company. I hope he's terrified; he certainly deserves to be out of business.
Someone posted previously that he had tried to get hired in Canada at 30+ companies to no avail. That does not mean that pilots are plentiful. The situation in Canada may not be as tight as the USA, or there may be other factors keeping him from getting hired (even as an agent.) I would reevaluate my interview skills if I were him.
At any rate, the pilot shortage in the USA is real. It's been hinted at for decades and was always "just around the corner." The fact is that the plethora of pilots trained by the US military up until the mid-1970s have begun to retire in the past few years. Civilian flight training gets ever more expensive and prospective pilots are just looking at the cost to train versus the future paycheck earned and realizing that becoming a professional pilot is really a bad deal. In terms of real purchasing power, the top tier captain at a major US airline is being paid the salary that his/her predecessors were being paid in the 1960s! Even in terms of numerical dollars, the hourly rates are from the mid-1980s. Flight schools here are shuttering their doors by the dozens as oil prices, aircraft costs, security concerns and lack of flight instructors makes profitable business impossible.

Messerschmitt There is no shortage.

I finished in Canada and even tho I have 105 hrs, I went to over 30+ companies offering myself even as ground crew to get my foot into industry and all of them turned me down saying they already have tons of resumes on hold.

Shortage my arse.

105 hrs. ?.. Was that a typo ? What sort of licence do you get with 105 hrs ?

He's right. They have tons of resumes from pilots who don't meet minimum qualifications. His is one of them.

105 hours !!!! :ugh:

Come on, Everyone knows that the airlines don't hire until you have at least 108 hours. :eek:

Go rent a C150 for 3 hours then re apply :ok: