Anyone here ever penetrated CTA without clearance???

[Justin.C]

hey guys, just curious to know how many people here have ever gone into CTA inadvertantly without clearance for whatever reason?

[Hour Builder]

You wont find 1 person admitting to that.

[turnarounds]

Not once! ................

[IRRenewal]

Yep, I have. Altimeter sub-scale incorrectly set. Climbed to what I taught was 100' below the base, ended up 200' above the base. Mode C on at the time.

Called up radar unit, said 'if you saw a blip pop up into the base of your thingy it was me. Sorry, altimeter mis-set'.

Reply I got was along the lines of 'thanks for letting us know', and that was it. Never heard anything else about it.

Morale of this story, if you do inadvertently enter controlled airspace (or you think you have), talk to the relevant radar unit. Explain why it happened and apologize (but keep it brief. Essex radar doesn't like you waffling away for 2 minutes). Fair chance you'll be let of the hook.

[jamestkirk]

When I was a 80'ish hour PPL, I got lost near Kidlington and ended smack bang over the top of Upper Heyford (USAF base, open in those days).

As I look out the window at the impressive runway I saw 2 F111's on their way up. Honestly, I think it was just a coincidence.

One flew alongside my C172 with crushed velour upholstery and thought to himself, 'I better not mess with this machine for fear of intimidation'. Or, he may have just briefly flown alongside with a sly grin and buggered off too do something far more interesting than sorting me out.

Touch wood, have not infringed since.

No-one is immune to mistakes no matter how many hours or type of licence you hold. The only problem is, once you hold a CPL or ATPL, it just makes those mistakes a bit harder to explain.

[Justin.C]

I`m a student pilot and have just about finished ppl training, on one of my final solo navs, which ended up being almost 4 hours, I overlooked my 2nd inbound call to my usual GAAP airport (I made the first one at 6 miles out, as per normal). I put it down to being exhausted, and losing some situational awareness due to trying to maintain 1500 in turbulence in order to avoid breaking the cta barrier above me and double checking atis to be sure of the RWY in use.

I got overhead and reported as per normal, when they told me I had penetrated cta. It has dented my confidence somewhat, however i`m in a way glad it happened as it is a wake up call for me, reminding me that even when it seems like your home free and you can relax, you can`t and must always retain that awareness of whats going on

[jamestkirk]

Don't let it dent your confidence.

We all make mistakes and you learn more from them than doing it right the whole time.

As my boss says 'perfection is the enemy of success'.

[maxdrypower]

Ill admit to it as I think its something we can all learn from . i busted manchesters and caused an inbound flight to take up a hold , basically by the old gotchas of follwoing wrong feature in and making the features fit the map , scared me ****less and taught me many lessons in one fell swoop , still waiting for the caa to call , .A position i hope i never find myself in again .sorry to whichever airline crew i upset that day

[Artificial Horizon]

I remember one day when I was senior instructor at a London flying school on a very nice weather day. Two seperate students within a couple of hours of each other infringed both luton and heathrow CTA respectively. The heathrow student contacted 121.5 when unsure of his position, was given a squawk and heading back to the airfield and that was that. The luton student didn't contact anyone, returned to base and denied he was anywhere near luton, subsequent radar trace proved otherwise. Nice man from the caa came and had a 'chat' with him and then recommended another 5 hours of training to be signed off by the CFI. So the moral is, if you are ever unsure of position give 121.5 a bell and just ask, it will be much better in the long run. We have all been there, I did it once during my training and at the time it feels as though the whole world is coming apart. Try not to let it get to you or dent your confidence, you will soon come to realise that flying is far from a perfect thing, every flight will normally consist of numerous mistakes no matter how many hours you have.

[maxdrypower]

Imust say immediately after i booked and hour with local instructor and went and had a look at the features leading me to the field so i dont make the same mistake again. Manchester atc were very professional and helpful and I spoke to them straight after and we had a bit of a chon wag , they even invited me to come and have a look round their facility

[Hour Builder]

You wont find 1 person admitting to that.

I stand corrected. Thanks everyone for sharing, I guess we all make mistakes, but it takes a better person to admit and/or share that experience to help the rest of us.

HB

[YesTAM]

I would like to suggest that you might like to visit ATC and get the tour if thats possible where you are, because it will open your eyes. ATC are generally a friendly mob provided you do the right thing by them - including asking if unsure of boundaries and complying as best you can if the inevitable happens. Apologies help as well.

[2close]

One day flying westbound south of Brize Norton CTA I heard the BZZ controller call up a known call-sign "G-ABCD, you have entered the south-east corner of my CAS".

G-ABCD - "No I haven't"

BZZ - "G-ABCD. I show you 2 miles north of XYZ at 4,000' "(Figures, etc. made up)

G-ABCD - "No, I'm not. I'm at XYZ waypoint. I set it in the GPS this morning".

What a nugget!!

Not only did he infringe CAS, he then tried to argue the point and went on to compound the situation by admitting to using GPS as primary navigation in VFR / VMC with an erroneous waypoint he had probably incorrectly entered, not that it's illegal, just a wondrous example of poor airmanship that resulted in a CAS infringment. I wonder if he wound up having a chat at Gatwick without tea and biscuits.

As has been said already, if you do infringe CAS, put your hands up, admit your error and give them a ring when back on the ground.

Touch wood, I've not bust CAS but I have misunderstood taxi clearances and on one occasion gone the wrong way on the ground and almost caused a runway incursion - an observant ATCO stopped me which brought an apology on the radio at the time and a phone call at the end of the flight. All sorted, everyone happy. The other time, many years back as a 80 hour PPL I again misunderstood a clearance in the USA and crossed the active runway when a bizjet was on short final - one very unhappy controller and me suitably boll***ed (I bet there were a few bods on frequency having a good old chuckle at that one) - the bizjet landed by the way without having to go around.

[jamestkirk]

A publication to read if any of you get the chance is 'on track' available fromm the CAA website.

Its a study of airpsace infringements and VERY interesting. see how many people go into CAS while getting a FIS (thinking it would keep them out of CAS).

AND the amount of infringements while using GPS.

[IDENTING]

I was recieving a RIS; VOR hopping my way down south from tropical Scotland. I was VFR at FL75 and the very kind lady on radar asked if I would like her to get transit clearance for me from the next unit to cross a class A airway about 10nm ahead. My heart missed a beat as i realised I hadn't even considered, or seen, the airway crossing my path. With the reactons of a fighter pilot I said I would appreciate that. About half way across the airway it occured to me that if I was VFR in a c172 then maybe I shouldn't accept a crossing through a class A airway?
Did I tell her I was VFR? Did the previous unit tell her? Did she assume I was IFR because of my amazing radio voice and cunning use of flight levels, coupled with the awesome ground speed of a Cessna 172 in a head wind? I couldn't remember at the time.
I did remember something about VFR flights being able to cross airways at 90deg but was that just at the base? It was too late anyway because by now I was about 1000ft above the base. Did I need two altimeters? Irrelevant because I had two anyway as it happened.
The point is although I didn't infringe airspace, I dont know if I was legal or not or whether I should have filed IFR to cross the airway? (had I seen it) If I had spotted it in my poor pre-flight planning I would have found out before hand. :confused:

[2close]

Identing,

I'm going to assume you don't have a valid IR so I'm afraid it's 15 years hard labour for you, in a maximum security prison. :eek:

Seriously, it is your responsibility whether or not to accept the clearance - the controller has no idea whatsoever of your qualifications and therefore can only tell you what service is available. If you cannot legally accept the clearance you have to decline (and for an Airways crossing you require an IR and 2 x Alts plus the other gubbings required for IFR flight).

So, I'm afraid you did infringe Class A airspace but don't lose any sleep over it. It happens and if nothing goes pear-shaped as a result no-one is ever any the wiser so don't expect dark suits and sunglasses on your doorstep.

The most important thing is to learn from your mistake and on your 10,000th mail-bag you'll certainly have done that.:ok:

Happy flying,

2close

[BackPacker]

I had it the other way around... I received a clearance to enter airspace which I did not ask for, and which would be illegal for me to use at that time. I did not use the clearance but got told off by my instructor after the flight (he happened to be in another airplane but on the same frequency at that time).

Here's what happened: I was a x-country qualified student pilot in Florida. Departed my home field, which lies underneath one of these shelves of class B airspace of the major international airport close by. (For those not familiar with US airspace structure: they use a sort of inverted wedding cake of class B airspace surrounding major international airports.) I climbed to 1500 feet or so (which was still beneath one of these shelves of class B), called up approach and asked for Flight Following to my next waypoint. Requested 3500 feet because I would be clear of that shelf in a few minutes. Got a squawk, got Flight Following and, without asking, got clearance through the Bravo as well. I never asked for that, never acknowledged that and never used it. But my instructor thought I had penetrated class B airspace, which is a big no-no for US student pilots, until explicitly endorsed for it. Fortunately I was able to convince him otherwise.

[BigGrecian]

You wont find 1 person admitting to that.
Disappointed with that answer. Aviation is about learning and admitting your mistakes when you make them and learning from them, not pretending they never happened. Learning through other people's mistakes is an easier way to learn as well...:} and I encourage people to learn from my mistakes, because everyone makes mistakes whether you like to admit it or not - it's Human! I would like to think the answer refers to the fact that you should get more than one person admitting to it.

I would say Yes I have; in the case of being in two way radio contact, but not having yet received a clearance to enter the airspace or cleared to the Beacon overhead the field (Debatable whether the latter grants you clearance to enter the airspace...), in the mean time time elapsed and I was just over the CTA boundary.

Lesson learnt; always contact the controlling authority with plenty of time before entering their airspace - especially if your on your Instrument Rating - the last thing you want is an unexpected hold on your test!:ooh:

[2close]

I have often found that, even when you request your clearance from 15 miles / 5 minutes + out some controllers leave the clearance until the last moment; this is not a criticism as that could be down to many varied reasons.

Only last week, I requested a VFR CTA transit and did not receive the clearance by the CTA boundary so I simply picked a prominent geographical feature (which I had established before leaving the ground) and took up an orbit until ATC called me up.

That, I think is the key; having a plan, worked out on the ground with your map to hand, before you find yourself on the edge of the CTA / CTR not knowing what to do next. It can go a long way in avoding CAS busts.

[Fish]

Yes I have, but a long time ago when the Cross Channel SRA was in force. I took my gran up for a tour of the countryside from Lydd, and showed her Ashford from the air. Strange thing though, I never thought Ashford had a gorgeous Cathedral, or a University. Yep, that was Canterbury alright, right in the middle of the SRA.

One of Ted Girdler's aircraft was in the area and asked Manston if I had clearance, hey said no so the other aircrat came over to have a look at who I was, got my reg and on returning to Lydd was asked for tea and bikkies with the CFI.

The outcome was a day at Dover Magistrates Court where I was fined 600 quid! And that was way back in 1985ish!! The other guy in the dock that day was Topper Headon, the drummer in The Clash. He asked what I was in for and when I said flying in controlled airspace without a clearance he just said 'Cool' and then went in for his hearing regadring possession of a large amount of illegal pharmaceuticals. We stayed in touch for a bit, he got a 200 quid slap on the wrist!

Basically, because I was a PPL, the magistrates thought I was loaded! If only they really knew the struggles we went hrough for every hour in the air! That fine represented nearly 20 hours flying time, or an IMC rating back then!

Today, and some 10,000 hours later, I normally ask when I want to climb up to FL350 and enter an airway... :)

[Farrell]

Someone else posted on breaching the CTA a few months ago.....actually it might at this stage have been more than a year ago.

The replies were interesting to say the least. Unnerving to see that from a wannabe perspective that nothing has changed.

It really is ok to admit that you have busted a level or jumped into a restricted garden. Learning from it is important, as is informing the appropriate controller of your error.....unless he spots you first which is more than likely.

Give plenty of time before approaching RA and remember that single pilot ops for a new jockey, especially in busy areas needs gradual practice until you get used to the workload.

For those of you about to embark on that....plan your flights and then sit down and go through it all in your head. Ask yourself lots of "what if...?" questions and look for the danger zones. Then jump a few miles back and let this be the location for your mental "Keep Out" tags.

Controllers are very helpful at the best of times. No one wants you smashing into someone else so be sensible, stay within your limits, cross check everything and if you feel even for a second that you are waivering too far off course.....shout for help.

They'll be glad you did, and so will you.

Click here to have a look at a video of a near miss in the US.
Many reasons that this could happen. Maintaining a good lookout and listening to radio calls that are not just your own (in order to see the big picture) might, and I stress 'might' have prevented this and just goes to show you that you need your wits about you all the time even when on finals!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0eKtnp0pSM

Safe skies

Farrell

[jamestkirk]

I think Hour Builders comment was just a tongue in cheek remark and not meant to be an admittance of covering up mistakes.