Mode S

[Lukesdad]

Does anyone have the current information regarding the compulsory fitting of mode s transponders next year?

[HonestoGod]

Next Year for VFR - 31 March 2008.

This month - 31 March 2007 - for IFR.

Give Ash a ring at 01 959 579 710 and he will give you the brief.

[IO540]

The fact is that nobody knows what will happen to the VFR deadline, currently 2008, or to what exemptions will be applied, and when.

[Sedbergh]

Those may be the official dates, but check the CAA website for the massive negative response to their Mode S (sorry Technical interopability etc etc.) "consultation"

I very much doubt that 2008 implementation for VFR Mode S is going to stick, the fat lady hasn't sung yet.

[Dysonsphere]

Any one have any better info we dont fancy buying one either the airlines should pay for the damm things

[FullyFlapped]

But the March 2007 deadline is only for IFR in class A, right ?

And does this apply elsewhere in Europesville ?

FF :confused:

[IO540]

If you fly IFR in CAS then you need a Mode S now and I don't think any further discussion of this is going to be useful.

Unless you want to limit yourself to the UK only and hope for some concessions on airspace access, but a UK-only IFR situation is a bit moot anyway since one can get around the UK in Class G, and nobody really cares whether you are VFR or IFR in Class G... - except ops at Class D airports.

VFR remains questionable; not (IMHO) because of the cost but because there are significant technical issues in installation in many types, so some exemptions will need to be worked out.

[Kiltie]

Done to death I know, but the last I was aware Mode S is only required in NOTIFIED areas of Class A airspace, ie not all Controlled Airspace.

This, at the moment, I think is limited to the London TMA, which very few of us will be transitting anyway. What remains to be seen is how many other areas of Class A will become "notified for Mode S" in the future. In short, Class D zones and most airways are still available with Mode C only.

Of course, please correct me if I am out of date.

[S-Works]

If you cross the TMA then you will need Mode S. If you fly airways in the UK the vast majority of the routes you will fly will take you accross the TMA.

Even if you file a route outside the TMA which is pretty difficult going anywhere south you still have a very high probability of ending up in the TMA. I would guess that I have probably had 1% of my airways routes as files around/across the TMA, the rest have always been vecotored. So pretty much if you are flying real IFR you will need mode S this month.

[Kiltie]

Us Jocks run out of petrol by the time we get anywhere near London so I guess we're Mode S exempt then. :}

[Paradism]

This seems to be the latest info regarding Mode S:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/810/AIC%20TEXT_2007%20Carriage%20of%20ModeS%20Transponders%20AIC %20V1.0.pdf

[Rod1]

Have a look at:

http://www.pfa.org.uk/Copy%20of%20modeS.asp

The CAA has agreed that there will be another consultation. No data for this has been announced and it will be many months after the consultation before any new VFR dates will be announced. In Europe there have been extensive exemptions announced, so do not rush to get a new transponder until the fat lady has finished!

Rod1

[robin]

I'm getting lost here.

My understanding os for a further round of consultation, yet the April 2007 document, if true, is confusingly still holding to the March 2008 deadline

Sounds like they are considering doing the dirty on us

[Rod1]

There is a two year implementation time allowed for the VFR element.

Rod1

[BEagle]

"The consultative process for the second proposal, described in 1.4.b, is ongoing and further information will be provided in separate AIC in due course."

Time to keep a particularly close eye on the CAA's Mode S proposals - particularly if you're flying light aircraft IMC outside CAS, I would suggest.

Make sure that EVERYONE is aware of the ridiculously expensive Mode S proposals - more evidence of the Bliarite Surveillance Society!

[rustle]

There is a two year implementation time allowed for the VFR element.

Rod1

Where is this documented, Rod? Is it an official view or a PFA one?

There are a number of things posted (about Mode S) that appear to be official, but are infact either home-made or from the PFA - neither of which is law...

[Lukesdad]

Thanks everyone, I am a little wiser now. It looks as though waiting until the last minute is the way to go. I would have thought that one of the avionics manufacturers would have produced a sensibly priced unit for those of us with expensive wives/children etc.

The new Garmin unit looks to be around £2000.

Come on Microair!

[robin]

Looking at some of the recent developments, I don't see the manufacturers being on our side.

Loop and the other freebie have ads for 'low-cost Mode S' around £2k+fitting. Another group are offering £150 trade-in on your perfectly serviceable Mode C.

And according to the other website

http://www.flyer.co.uk/news/newsfeed.php?artnum=495

there is a 'helpline' to sell us the right tx.
None will be at the 700 euro price our beloved CAA have said needs to be in place, but the clock is still ticking.

Watch for more messages from the dealers........:ugh:

[AC-DC]

Rod 1
In Europe there have been extensive exemptions announced, so do not rush to get a new transponder until the fat lady has finished
Can you bring me up to date? Which countries and what are the exemptions? I fly an airways N reg but am not IR so I fly around EU VFR only.
Thanks

[pulse1]

I have received two letters from Gillian Merron, the PUS for the Department of Transport.

On November 28, 2006 she said:

"The CAA is unlikely to propose the fitment of Mode S transponders to light aircraft including microlights, gliders, balloons and paramotors unless the activity is unusual and likely to cause interaction with other types of user ( for example an endurance flight)."

and:

" Until a certified LPST is available commercially for use within UK airspace, all classes of light aircraft will operate under a blanket exclusion"

On January 17, she wrote:

"These (the responses) are now being analysed by the DAP and I am advised that this work is expected to take some time yet."

"The DAP will make a judgement as to whether a further stage of public consultation might be beneficial. Irrespective of this, additional consultation with representatives from different sectors of the aviation community will tale place during this period as appropriate."

[Rod1]

“Loop and the other freebie have ads for 'low-cost Mode S' around £2k+fitting.”

If you have a KT76a the best option I am aware of is;

http://www.filser.de

You can get one for about £1350 ish + vat from Lyndhurst Touchdown Services Ltd tel +44 (0)23 8028 2619. It is plug compatible with the KT and has an inbuilt encoder, so will save you a fortune on installation. I would not recommend that you jump unless you are planning on IFR flight in a designated area, but this is what I would get if I had to.

France is ahead on the exceptions. All 8000 micros have been exempted for some time and I understand others have been announced, but I am not fully up to date, not enough hours in the day to keep up with things at the moment!

All the data from Pulse1 fits what I am being told, but only for VFR flight. Probable that there will be a blanket exemption up to 6000ft (the proposed new transition height) in the open FIR, and we may get to keep out mode c’s for unrestricted access to class D. The above is my personal opinion only as it is not yet agreed. As Pulse says much consultation is going on.

No Idea how all this will impact flight in Europe VFR, but my guess would be we would need to negotiate agreements with our European friends if we do not comply. This is probably no big deal as this is how PFA aircraft get free movement around most of Europe anyway.

Rod1

[robin]

Rod

Forgive my ignorance on this, but although the 'plug-in' models are a relatively straightforward and cheap(er) option, it becomes less so if you haven't got a transponder installed already or the one you have doesn't have a upgrade option the costs are somewhat greater.

I'll bow to your greater knowledge, though

[Rod1]

Robin,

You are right. This is why I specified the bit about having a KT67a to start with. The above is still probably the least cost option but calculating the exact cost will require an avionic shop to give you a quotation, unless you are PFA (like me) in which case you can DIY. The cost of mounting a transponder in a non metal aircraft which has no spare room in the panel and no existing aerial will be very high. The real world costs I was quoted from a number of avionic shops was much higher than the CAA estimates in the original consultation, which was another nail in its coffin.

Rod1