Eclipse, all going pear shaped

[Dimbleby]

Tut tut.........they said it couldnt be done, and if you ignore the recent Eclipse hype then that is exactly what is happening.

The Eclipse is looking a rockier proposition by the week.

Since last November and the much hyped first delivery (which by the way went back to the factory immediately, and is still there !!), its been delays, certification issues, lawsuits due delivery delays. Really much as Dimbleby (he's been around) forecast.

And then the performance figures came out. Ooooooh - the pain that must have caused many with their money down.

Then two weeks ago Eclipse and Avidyne (Avionics) finally parted company. God knows how the new Avio partners (three different companies) can fit in to the production line up!?

Finally yesterday the long awaited bust up (rumoured this past two months) with United Airlines Training eventually happened.

So there you go, no final avionics package, no training organisation......still think you are getting the Eclipse this year? or next year for that matter? or......(Dont say it D).

For aN additional larf, go to their website and have a GOOD look at their training requirements and recurrency/mentor requirements.:eek:

[S-Works]

why are you talking about yourself in the 3rd party?

[Dimbleby]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news old boy, but dont shoot the messenger.!!

[IO540]

Some of the stuff I read about re Eclipse is bad enough to give GA a bad name, and that takes some doing...

[Onthehill]

Rayburn and Eclipse had a brave and exciting shot at breaking the mould, but frankly it cannot be done at the prices quoted.

More importantly it (The Eclipse) cannot be flown by those who wish to buy it, and this is amongst the key reasons why United and Eclipse parted company.

Anyone who placed a deposit on an Eclipse was taking a risk, and like all risks, and one hopes that they can afford to lose the money.

Moving from a performance single or a turboprop to a twin jet (Eclipse) with suspect/hard to manage fuel/payload/c of g issues and operating single pilot is next to impossible.

[sternone]

One obvious reason for this crappy situation at eclipse is that bill gates is in it.. he's a main investor on the eclipse...
i work on macs.. vista sucks, microsoft sucks, i do on my mac already many years what windows 'tries' to do.. they just copy everything, and does it badly.. look at the zune copy of the ipod etc.. i hope eclipse does not take to much 'software' advise from ugly stupid bill gates.. or many eclipse planes will 'crash' while rebooting...

http://news.com.com/Gates+a+big+investor+in+aircraft+start-up/2100-1008_3-5632401.html

[B2N2]

I have been following developments of the Eclipse saga on this
weblog:

http://eclipseaviationcritic.********.com/

Bit of a read but very interesting.

[scooter boy]

What a shame - not just for those who had been brave enough to place a deposit but also for general aviation as a whole.

Do I sense a degree of gloating in this thread perhaps by people who were not just predicting but in fact hoping that Eclipse would collapse?

I hope they sort the problems out and get back in to production asap.

We will see over the next 12 months whether Eclipse have the mettle to pull through.

SB

[IO540]

What they have done is really no different to what I have seen many times in the 30 years I have been in business. They have taken a huge risk on a lot of balls all staying up in the air for long enough for them to start selling planes and getting some cash back in. I've seen this in conventional business, where a startup company picks a lot of small suppliers and screws them on (very) extended payment terms to raise the working capital, and sometimes it doesn't work out. In normal business this "bet the whole shop to get started" practice is severely frowned upon and most sensible suppliers won't touch such a company with a 20ft bargepole no matter what telephone figures they spout, but in aviation one gets used to people pulling stunts all the time. I guess that since Eclipse is obviously smaller than most of the major equipment vendors they could not screw them very hard, so they had to screw somebody else and the deposit-paying customers were the only option.

IMHO the VLJ market is massively oversold and the major beneficiaries of the countless $millions that will be spent on the VLJ marketing will be turboprop manufacturers who can deliver proven solutions that go further for less money while carrying a lot more stuff.

[sternone]

Above message is not completely true for eclipse, since they raised

400Million $...

I find it also very sad for eclipse, i'm a potential eclipse buyer

[IO540]

I accept your correction, sternone. However, they still did bet the whole shop... they unfortunately seem to have managed it very poorly. Of course if somebody does recklessly bet everything on what is initially vapour, and pulls it off, he becomes a national hero and nobody questions the risk he took, and I acknowledge that too.

Why don't you buy a turboprop? I see you live in Europe. A TBM700 or 850 will get you from any A to any B in Europe or N Africa in much the same time as a light jet... especially by the time you have slowly and carefully counted out all the cash to hand to the bowser man at some Greek airport, having waited an hour for him to do the Easyjet stuff first :) It will carry more stuff too, and is likely to cost a lot less in maintenance (although an order of magnitude more than any piston of course). And it will do the shorter runways which Europe is full of.

And, I gather, upper airway route availability isn't quite as free as it used to be, and the Eclipse makes big tradeoffs between weight, operating ceiling and range.

[cfwake]

Does anyone think that as well as their own internal problems, the fact that Cessna's offerings of CJ1+ and Mustang seem to be so similar, and from a larger, long established company did Eclipse a considerable amount of damage?

I'm no expert but I get the feeling that if Eclipse had got their product out first then they may have had much better fortune, of course that's pretty much what's being said here but once a new company comes up against someone who can afford to fight back, things become a lot more difficult. Having read and heard a lot about how good the Mustang seems to be, perhaps Eclipse has missed the boat for good?

Anyone have a good idea about the real life comparison? The website figures put the CJ1+ (the nearest competitor based on range) at an advantage pretty much everywhere apart from t/o distance. Don't know how the price compares!

cf

[sternone]

The Mustang is 1M $ more...the Embraer Phenom 100 even more... (but is more spacier...)

Will i be forced to fly the small D-JET ??

The TBM850 and the PC-12 also costs much more than the D-JET and the Eclipse...one option is also that i go for the King Air 90CT... as they say it, the best reason to buy the king air 90 and not a VLJ is that it's not a VLJ...

[cfwake]

Didn't realise that it was so much more actually I thought the two were a similar price!

[HonestoGod]

Sternone.

You were about to place an order for an Eclipse and now you are thinking of the D-Jet.

We have a phrase "out of the frying pan and into the fire".

That 'a side' heres just a few considerations for you;

The D-Jet looks nice, in fact I think it looks very nice.
Sit into the mockup at the next airshow. It is tiny inside. I was with a 5' 9" guy and he couldnt sit upright in the back! and that with the seat base virtually on the floor (thigh angle about 30 degrees up).

My main advise to anyone thinking of a VLJ is look very hard at the training requirements. Many I know, placed a deposit for an Eclipse with only general and vague guidelines on what hoops they would have to go through to fly the thing.

My secondary advise is only sign a contract for 'guaranteed performance figures' and I mean every last one of them not just a few ! (Go to a certified aircraft POH to see how many there actually are).

Operating a jet means that to get economical fuel burn figures - thus range -you will probably need to be FL330 (plus), and with the much faster commercial traffic on the same routes you may have horrific slots and delays.

Beech - well engineered aircraft but payload versus legs issue, and big chequebook required for non scheduled maintenance.

[Looklively]

Moving from single pilot piston operations to single pilot jet operations would be a move that I venture, would be truly only for the foolhardy.

I beleive as do most pro jet guys that two rated pilots in the jet cockpit is the only way to go.

And here is why the Eclipse, D jet and the rest fail - the market men believe that there are thousands of SEP guys n gals out there who can fly their VLJ aircraft. There isnt and there wont be, ever!

If you want to move up a step, try a TBM or a Pilatus. The TBM will do everything an VLJ will do and more besides.

[IO540]

We have a phrase "out of the frying pan and into the fire".

This is bound to be true. One will end up being a guinea pig for a new airframe, new engine / control system, new avionics, a whole new load of avionics integration.

Buying a new piston retractable SEP a few years ago was bad enough, and that used proven everything. I still ended up with nearly all the avionics having to be replaced (under warranty but a huge hassle nevertheless).

Moving from single pilot piston operations to single pilot jet operations would be a move that I venture, would be truly only for the foolhardy.
I beleive as do most pro jet guys that two rated pilots in the jet cockpit is the only way to go.

I've never flown a jet but I don't believe this often-quoted phrase is correct, as put.

For starters, there are plenty of pilots who cannot grasp even a modern 150kt piston single - no matter how many hundreds of hours they fly with instructors. I have known of certain cases of these. Somebody with plenty of money but insufficient mechanical/technical brain to even drive a car (with a manual box) properly can get a PPL and fly a spamcan on sunny Sundays, but they will not get beyond that. I won't say any more but there are quite a few owners who always fly dual, with their own private instructor.

But, assuming the pilot has a decent technical brain and can grasp the concepts of operating something complicated, it's all down to cockpit workload, and the thing which determines cockpit workload is how much automation there is and how well it is all integrated. Many years ago you had a crew of five in a 4-engined piston airliner. Today a 747 with vastly more systems is flown by two pilots, and they do nothing most of the time.

The cruise speed of a jet isn't relevant because enroute you do nothing much anyway (it's on autopilot) and the departure/terminal phases are flown slowly, 200-ish kt max, and there are piston planes that go nearly as fast. I've done approaches, most of the way to the base leg / loc intercept, at a GS of ~ 210kt, in the TB20 (Vne=187kt), thanks to a massive tailwind combined with a -1000fpm descent rate from say FL160. Things happen fast... but not so fast that you can't sit there on autopilot and turn the heading bug on the HSI fast enough!

And here is why the Eclipse, D jet and the rest fail - the market men believe that there are thousands of SEP guys n gals out there who can fly their VLJ aircraft. There isnt and there wont be, ever!

The market won't be there IMHO but not because people can't fly them. It's because the demand isn't there for thousands upon thousands of jets, with a range no greater than a piston single and with overall utility not as good as a plain old turboprop.

I know lots of people "high up" think that skies full of VLJs ("flying out of Luton") will bring European ATC to a halt. I heard at a NATS seminar that the CAA was going to ban light jets from the UK unless dual pilot.... then some old jet pilot asked what about the SP Citations which have been flying around for years? ;) No answer to that one really... There was a news report last year about the German CAA mandating an ATPL for any jet in German airspace, but this seems to have died. They can't screw around with ICAO to that extent.

If a pilot is clever enough to get a jet TR or a conversion course or whatever it is called (for which he will need an IR and ~ 1k hrs TT or whatever) he will be able to fly any of these little jets, and safely.

If you want to move up a step, try a TBM or a Pilatus. The TBM will do everything an VLJ will do and more besides.

Couldn't agree more. There are plenty of used TBMs around, and there will be more as the 850 deliveries ramp up in 2007/08.

[scooter boy]

Guys,
I just took a look at the site, training requirements and gossipy blog.

What is the big deal here? Why all the doom and gloom?

Any new company/product is going to have teething problems - its a fact of life. Also it is expected that the first few aircraft will be making regular trips to the engineering department for mandatory mods as the fleet matures.

As for the avionics issues - I can't see a problem with changing supplier.

The training requirements seem entirely reasonable to me.
Sounds like 25 hrs minimum with a mentor pilot unless you are a current jet pilot with 2 type ratings and 5000hrs total time.

Quite honestly I would feel extremely nervous being signed off any earlier and even if I could be would take a jet captain friend along to keep an eye on me (and the aircraft).

IO, I agree about the aircraft not being within the grasp of many owner pilots (both financially and also in terms of piloting skills) but I do feel that there is still a market in the UK - a good friend of mine has a deposit down already.

If you buy the first in a new line of aircraft then these problems are expected.

As for the TBM 850, it is a beautiful aircraft with a well shaken down airframe BUT has half the svc ceiling and costs twice as much. You will still be flying through a lot of the Wx that the Eclipse will be going over the top of.

When the Eclipse shakes off its teething problems I will probably be placing an order - it still looks like the best VFM around by far - no question. (I agree that the D-Jet and ciurrus do not even come close).

In fact it looks so good that those with a vested interest in keeping older more expensive metal running must be getting more nervous by the minute.

SB

[sternone]

>> In fact it looks so good that those with a vested interest in keeping older more
>> expensive metal running must be getting more nervous by the minute.


How else can you explain that cirrus, diamond, piper, cessna etc... jump on the VLJ wagon ? Scooterboy, do you ever think mooney will make a VLJ ?

[scooter boy]

Sternone,

I think Mooney are smart enough to know that they are safest sticking to what they do best - fast IFR singles. God knows they have had their fair share of financial difficulties in the recent past, but the integrity of the product and loyalty of the workforce has been so strong that they have managed to re-emerge. I am sure that they will continue to play with the airframe and engine in order to keep the number 1 spot in the speed race.(Shouldn't be too much of a problem if Cirrus and Lancair keep those wheels hanging down into the slipstream!!:E :E )

Hopefully Cirrus, Piper and Diamond will not bankrupt themselves by producing a second rate single engined VLJ that nobody wants to buy.

VLJs are coming and even with the current woes the Eclipse still represents the best deal by far.

The fat lady has not sung yet for Eclipse - the next 12 months will be make or break. (Hopefully make!:ok: )

SB

[chevvron]

IO540 said' What they have done is really no different etc'

Remember Jim Bede and the BD5 series of aircraft? Lots of people in the UK put down deposits; how many are flying in the UK?

[sternone]

Personally i think showing 3000 orders to bill gates will be no problem getting more money if eclipse will need it...

[IO540]

As for the TBM 850, it is a beautiful aircraft with a well shaken down airframe BUT has half the svc ceiling and costs twice as much. You will still be flying through a lot of the Wx that the Eclipse will be going over the top of.

Not sure about "half" the ceiling, SB ;)

The 850 does about 30,000ft. Only the Concorde, or mil jets, could double that.

I have no axe to grind because a) I am happy with my TB20; b) cannot afford a turboprop anyway (other than some really knackered Meridian with bicycle tube patches all over the rubber boots); c) wouldn't buy a TBM anyway, preferring something much slicker like the Epic.

But a 30k ceiling gets you above all stratus, above just about everything except CBs, you can avoid embedded CBs because you have radar, and only a 50k+ ceiling will get you above turbulence. In terms of clinical mission capability (the go / no-go decision) I don't see much difference between 30k and 40k-45k.

And neither has the ~500kt TAS to get you airliner-type upper airway routes.

The jets will definitely sell, but I reckon 1/10 to 1/5 of the figures banded about. Especially as a lot of the sales are based on US air taxi fleet purchase projections, which don't add up if you allow for six fat Americans turning up with their golf clubs. Or six fat Europeans for that matter; the Brits and Germans are not far behind.

[Hairyplane]

'Ugly stupid Bill Gates'...

Fact is, whatever you might think of him, he is wedged up sufficiently to throw a few dollars at his lawyer, who might then in turn require a few quid off you for defamation, internet forum or otherwise.

I'd quietly withdraw that one IIWY. American Judges have a habit of saying 'take out your wallet and repeat after me 'help yourself'... plus my bank account, my house and my shoes.'

Don't answer the door or the phone.......;)

HP

[sternone]

Dude, i don't know were you are comming from, but on my planet this is plain crap you are trying to sell. Also i guess you haven't been eating a lot of law books in your life, you're just full of sh*t.

I would love to argue with bill gates and confront him with the lies and copies he have been doing since more than 20 years now, but i guess that is another thread, do some google on 'bill gates' and 'copies mac'

Also you can bet that i also have some dollars to throw to him, but who cares. In fact, i think you are a funny guy.

On the part of the eclipse plane, i see a market for it, in fact i belong to that markt, in my country one person had payed for 10 eclipse planes, i don't see somebody doing that without having some founded market research/descision.

[scooter boy]

Not sure about "half" the ceiling, SB ;)

OK, OK, well 3/4 ish then :ouch: but the fronts that we mere mortals end up ploughing through below 25000ft can often have tops between 30,000 and 40,000 ft.

Thge Epic looks fantastic - an American colleague of mine has a deposit down for one.

Let's hope Eclipse can set things straight,
SB

[sternone]

These Epic planes looks great! I asked a quote to them...has anyone flew these birds yet ? (dynasty)

[a4fly]

IO540 is right about the Eclipse not getting to its optimum level for weather avoidance / fuel burn. It flies at almost the same speed as the Citation ii. You will have two hopes of getting past FL200, especially in France doing .62 / .64 :

1. Bob Hope

2. No hope !

You will still be flying much faster than the turboprop, but don't try stretching the range thinking that you will be at FL300 by the time that you are crossing northern France, cos it will not happen.

[Hairyplane]

Hi Sternone,

You are an aggressive guy. My post was tongue in cheek and might ordinarily have raised a titter but I suppose you would've needed a sense of humour at some stage to have suffered a recent failure of it.

Trading insults isn't my bag at all.

Are you short BTW?

Just a theory.................;)

HP

[sternone]

Haha, i'm not short, sorry

[a4fly]

cjboy, you can get all the airways clearances you like on the ground, but the chances of being cleared to climb to even FL250 is unlikely whilst under control of particularly the French.

I flew the c550/ 560 five years ago. the 560 was fine cruising at .73 but exchanges with A.T.C. in the 550 almost always went like this:

" G-AB requesting climb "

" G-AB what will your speed be at ( say ) FL250 ? "

" ERR. .62 "

" Roger G-AB, maintain FL200 for the cruise " !!

There of plenty of places in Europe where you will get to Fl300, no problem but in busy airspace you simply can't get in the way of other aircraft flying much faster.

[Chilli Monster]

a4fly - sorry, but you're talking rubbish

I fly a Citation II (not a Bravo) and normally return from the South of France at FL360 or FL380. It's not a problem, the French Upper Air Guys are perfectly capable of handling it. If we have an overtake situation they turn us both out 10 degrees and the guy doing M .74 against our M .63 overtakes.

[IO540]

Informed opinion from the USA (which I cannot speak for myself) suggests that the lower speed of the Eclipse will affect upper airway routings over there.

As regards the report above from flying to/from southern France, I should say there is far less traffic down there than going generally east of the UK i.e. Belgium / Germany / Czech etc. Most French airports are pretty dead. The difference is even evident from the ease of working out Eurocontrol-acceptable airway routes: most autorouted Flitestar routes go straight through, but there is not a chance in hell of making them work straight off if going to the east. I've even had routes to Biarritz etc work straight off the paper charts, which is almost unheard of, from pilots who do not have access to the "inside" of the ATC system.

[a4fly]

Oh dear,

I would never suggest that anybody was talking rubbish whilst recounting their experiences, unless I had flown with them during 100% of their flying career. You haven't, so please don't.

It was several years ago (sometimes pre-R.V.S.M.) that I flew the 550 down to the South of France; so perhaps my climb was held at FL250, not FL200 and maybe the French now move you over so that others can overtake, but I can assure you that on numerous occasions our climbs were severely cut short because of our speed. This happened only in France. Fact not fiction. If it's changed now, then good although since aircraft are getting faster, not slower I would be very surprised if pilots of the older Citations are not coming up against this situation on a regular basis.

Anyway, the reason for my original remarks regarding curtailed climb clearances were in the context of this thread. Many potential buyers of the Eclipse will be private owners. It would be a shame if any of them purchased one on the basis of a predicted fuel burn plan on a flight that they were doing regularly, only to find that they were not able to climb to FL380 (or whatever) in some ultra short time, because French A.T.C. held them at a lower level because of their slow speed.

[Chilli Monster]

I would never suggest that anybody was talking rubbish whilst recounting their experiences, unless I had flown with them during 100% of their flying career. You haven't, so please don't.

Fair enough. However, you were using your past experiences as a basis for what happens now - this is, as I hope I've shown, not the case.

I would be very surprised if pilots of the older Citations are not coming up against this situation on a regular basis.

Hasn't happened to me in the last 3-4 years that I've been doing it. Fact, not fiction. (1982 Citation II, RVSM equpped, M .63 limited in RVSM airspace)

[GDSD]

I didn't realise that this was a problem. I regularly flew a PC12 in French Air Space (Paris/Nice from/to the UK) - up to FL270/FL280 - with no problems. That's at 250 TAS. (between July 2005 and Oct 2006).

[Chilli Monster]

GDSD

You wouldn't at those levels - it's FL300 plus where the speed differentials are that we're talking about (Airliners V light jets).

Below FL300 the cruising levels tend to be occupied by aircraft of a similar speed group. (PC12, BE200, ATR's etc)