View Full Version : Chinese CVA by 2010
China Says Aircraft Carrier Possible By 2010: Paper
By REUTERS, HONG KONG
China could build its first aircraft carrier by 2010 if current research and development proceeds smoothly, a Hong Kong newspaper quoted a Chinese general as saying on March 7. The Beijing-funded Wen Wei Po newspaper identified the source as a “zhong jiang,” meaning lieutenant general or vice admiral, depending on the service, and a member of the military delegation at a parliament session in Beijing. It did not give further details.
Experts say China’s military has been researching carriers for years as a way to protect its interests offshore, but there has been no formal admission of a program to build one.
Earlier this week, China announced a 17.8 percent rise in its official defense budget for 2007, to 350.92 billion yuan ($45.32 billion), continuing a trend of double-digit growth. Foreign experts say the real amount may be three or more times that.
China has been modernizing its military with an emphasis on naval and air power to strengthen its hand with regard to Taiwan and too also better protect its economic interests such as shipping lanes in the South China Sea.
Beijing says its military is only for defense, but the rapid upgrade of its capabilities in recent years has worried some in the region.
Ties between China and Taiwan have become increasingly strained recently as Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian raised Beijing’s ire with pro-independence comments. On Monday, Taiwan’s defense ministry said Beijing’s increasing defense spending threatened regional peace and upset the military balance in favor of China. Last month, a Japanese legislator warned that Japan could become a Chinese province “if something goes wrong in Taiwan in the next 15 years”.
The military buildup has been a source of friction with the United States, which is obliged under the Taiwan Relations Act to help Taiwan defend itself.
China’s President Hu Jintao in December urged the building of a powerful Chinese navy that was prepared “at any time” for military struggle.....
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Navy: China Bolsters Ballistic Missile Subs
BY AGENCE FRANCE-PRESS
China is conducting sea trials of the first of five new nuclear-powered submarines armed with longer-range ballistic missiles, according to a U.S. naval intelligence report made public Friday. The sea trials are part of a broader push by China to check U.S. naval power in the western Pacific with a more modern fleet of nuclear-powered ballistic missile and attack submarines, the Office of Naval Intelligence said.
The first of the nuclear ballistic missile submarines, designated the Type 094 SSBN, could begin operating as early as 2008, ONI said. The submarine “will provide China with a modern and robust sea-based nuclear deterrent force,” the ONI reported. It will be equipped with the JL-2 sea-launched ballistic missile with range of 5,000 miles, a big gain over China’s only other ballistic missile submarine. The XIA SSBN, a 24-year-old nuclear powered vessel, is armed with the JL-1 missile, which has a range of 1,000 miles.
The ONI said China probably will build five of the new ballistic missile submarines “to provide more redundancy and capacity for a near-continuous at-sea SSBN presence.” “Construction and sea trials of the Type 094 program are ongoing,” ONI said.
The unclassified ONI report, which was obtained by AFP and has a question-and-answer format, was first reported by Sea Power magazine, then picked up by the Washington Times. It said China also is concluding sea trials of a new Type 093 nuclear-powered attack submarine that is expected to be quieter and armed with more advanced weaponry than its predecessor, the HAN SSN class submarines. It will have anti-ship cruise missiles and more modern torpedoes than the HAN, the report said.
“China has built these features into the Type 093 in an effort to improve the [Peoples Liberation Army Navy] to conduct anti-surface warfare at greater ranges from the Chinese coast than its diesel submarine force offers,” it said.
GreenKnight121
8th Mar 2007, 00:49
Unless the keel has already been laid (or the super-blocks started), then there is no chance of China having a CV before 2010.
Perhaps what is meant is that China could start building its first carrier by 2010.
YesTAM
8th Mar 2007, 02:00
Goody! more targets for the Collins class subs!
Millski
8th Mar 2007, 02:34
Are you sure,
it is China they do have the occasional worker or two
:O
GreenKnight121
8th Mar 2007, 04:42
And they can build a very large warship, of a type they have never before built, in 3 years?
If so, then they are better shipbuilders than everyone else in the world who has built a 40,000+ ton carrier!
Or is that your contention?
Bushfiva
8th Mar 2007, 05:58
China bought the Kiev (Binhai Aircraft Carrier Museum), HMAS Melbourne, Minsk and Varyag. The latter may be seaworthy. Let's say, two to examine whilst scrapping them, one to play around with, one to restore as a training platform while China builds a real one of its own. So someone's interested in carriers there.
Mr-AEO
8th Mar 2007, 07:01
Anyone could build a carrier 'lookylikey' in 3 years so long as they had enough resource. It's just that it will be a pile of dog poo when compared to the proper article and more akin to use in a theme park as a kids plaything than used as a war fighting platform with integrated aviation capability. (Haven't they already got a Nimitz size mock-up in a naval theme park?)
Hat's off to their ambition, but I expect it's basic propaganda to feed the general feeling in the west that China is going to be a Superpower.:hmm: As if......
Millski
8th Mar 2007, 09:01
I didn't say that it would be a good one.
just built in the time frame :}
The Chinese don't have to worry about Anglo/French-style egos and differences nor worker relations (or otherwise), so when someone says 'Build', everyone builds. The result doesn't need to be terribly good, especially if there is a new keel being laid down every second weekend. Perhaps the Chinese are working on the fact that large numbers of simple bits of kit are probably worth much more than a couple of gold-plated ones. And if the jets on board are good.....................
Not_a_boffin
8th Mar 2007, 09:54
It is do-able - if you have a good shipbuilding industry (which they have). Forrestal went from being laid down to commissioning in just over three years, before the yanks discovered a "requirementeering" industry and started planning for comprehensive through-life doo-dahs. With the exception of the cats (which they won't have if they go STOBAR), there really isn't anything massively complex about a carrier in either design or build, once you know how it's done. Depends how much IT infrastructure, electrical distribution you have and what accommodation standard you want to go for.
Get on and build it is anathema in the west with our endless rebudgeting, trade-off and capability management industries reducing the purchasing power of the procurement budget. I know it's a necessary element of the process, but the way we do it adds a massive overhead. In China, as numerous posters have pointed out, it's a question of get on with it and don't come back and say it's going to be late!
Suspect that they are aiming for a 2010 start of production, but you just never know.
Or they could re-fit/re-engineer Varyag.
This is a shot of Varyag at the end of last year. This has been her berthing since moving out of drydock. She received a zinc based deck coating and has been repainted in PLAN colours.
http://www.jeffhead.com/redseadragon/09-2006-Dalian-Deck%20Paint.jpg
The Chinese are also interested in purchasing Su-33 Flanker Ds. In October of 2006, the Kommersant online newspaper in Moscow announced a deal between Russia and China where the Russians sell up to 50 Su-33 fighters to China for $2.5 billion.
GreenKnight121
8th Mar 2007, 23:38
Still riding pretty high out of the water, but seems a bit lower than in mid-2006... maybe some equipment has been fitted?
Back when the sale was first made public, my friends and I all agreed that she would be used as a training carrier... despite the "commercial uses only" clause in the sale... and it appears that we were right. :=
Or is it that the "amusement park company" that "owns" her is just going to "contract to provide a ship for training PLAN pilots in ship-board flight operations", and she will never be officially added to the PLAN OOB? :rolleyes:
engineer(retard)
9th Mar 2007, 15:07
Tyhe problem with the chinese building a carrier in 2010 is that 20 minutes later they will want another one :\
regards
retard
MarkD
13th Mar 2007, 19:40
They might just do a Los Alamos... PLAN ship Ron Rea-Gan coming your way soon!
A handy guide for those interested...
DefenseNews.com: China’s Navy, According to the U.S. Navy - ONI Publishes Detailed Portrait of Chinese Service
Those who argue for an increase in U.S. naval spending often point to China and the rapid and extensive growth of the People’s Liberation Army Navy, but good reference material on the PLAN has been scarce. Now, the U.S. Navy’s Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) has stepped in to fill that gap, producing a 144-page handbook on the world’s fastest-growing navy.
“China’s Navy 2007,” released in early March, is intended to “foster a better understanding” of the PLAN, according to William Tarry, director of the Naval Analysis Directorate.
In the handbook’s preface, Terry says that the handbook is not an analysis of trends or intent, but is meant to educate and inform readers “during this time of greater contact” between the U.S. Navy and the PLAN.
The book, available as an Adobe Acrobat PDF file (http://www.militarytimes.com/static/projects/pages/20070313dnplanavy.pdf), does not include the many illustrations and multiple lists of ships or ship types found in standard reference works. But it is packed with information on the PLAN’s leadership and bureaucratic organization, how its personnel system works, where its forces are based and organized and how its political system works. A concise history of the Chinese Navy is included, along with separate chapters on submarines, surface forces, naval aviation, coastal defense forces, marines and weapon systems. One chapter is devoted to quality of life, and a handy six-page glossary of Chinese terms is included.
This is a sophisticated description of a naval service that can inform the ongoing debate regarding the capabilities and intentions of China’s leaders.
Varyag out of dry dock with new island with AESA radar.
Ares: Heck Of A Casino You Got There, Admiral Wu (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3aca959b6a-fa27-44f4-a17f-2b1a1a1e0336&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest)
mr fish
24th Mar 2010, 21:01
reminds me of a quote from a retired nimitz class "air boss" from a few years back.
the jist of which was "we could give this boat and aircraft to the reds, and it would STILL take them over ten years to learn how to use it correctly"
Load Toad
25th Mar 2010, 01:13
Frankly speaking - so what?
TBM-Legend
25th Mar 2010, 01:54
aha..
a new coat of paint and a new flag on our old "War Canoe" ,HMAS Melbourne, and they're in business.
She was sold as scrap but still exists and is used by the Chinese to study aircraft carrier methods etc. Ancient as she may be it still looks and works like more modern machinery.
We sold scrap iron to the Japs just before WW2!.
This time no bullets and bombs, just lots of yuan!!!!:rolleyes:
###targets for a Collins class sub,,,,,oh dear, someone is reading the press releases. Five Collins out of six have been sunk by the RAN and the dockyards...
Not_a_boffin
12th Aug 2013, 16:19
If these are what they purport to be (and they look credible to me), then our Chinese friends are not hanging about.....
http://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/6d19630djw1e7k2nofpz6j20ao0e8gmg1.jpg
http://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/6d19630djw1e7k2nolzu0j20e80aojrz1.jpg
As pointed out elsewhere, the notch in the deck on the right is for an aircraft catapult pit, indicating the Chinese are intending to go develop a full steam or EMALS launch system.
Work under way on China's second aircraft carrier at Dalian yard (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1408728/work-under-way-chinas-second-aircraft-carrier-dalian-yard)
Huge ship and two advanced destroyers being built at Dalian yard says Liaoning party chief, according to reports later deleted from internet
China is reportedly building a second aircraft carrier, estimated to be completed by 2018, on its way to expanding its fleet to four of the massive ships.
Media reports - later deleted from the internet - stated Liaoning party chief Wang Min told a panel of the provincial people's congress that the second carrier was being built in the city of Dalian. The reports also quoted Wang as saying the port city was building two advanced 052D destroyers. Wang told delegates from Dalian yesterday that the shipyard had started building China's second carrier after the first one, Liaoning, was delivered to the navy. The shipyard was responsible for refitting Liaoning, formerly a Ukrainian carrier. Wang said construction of the new carrier would take six years and China's navy would eventually have four.
While the report did not specify the exact completion date, the new carrier is expected to be completed in 2018, based on the delivery date of Liaoning to the navy in September 2012. It was the first confirmation by a senior official that China was building a second carrier, as well as the location and the timetable of its construction. The Defence Ministry has been tight-lipped about the progress of the plan.
The South China Morning Post reported in November that China would build four medium carriers by 2020. A country needs three to four carrier battlegroups for combat capability. The United States, by comparison, has 10 active carriers. The carriers are part of China's push to develop a so-called blue water navy at a time when tension is running high with neighbours including Japan and the Philippines. In December, the USS Cowpens had to change course to avoid a near collision with one of the ships in the Liaoning squadron conducting tests in the South China Sea.
Military experts yesterday were divided about why the report was removed from the internet. "I am sure Wang Min did say that in the panel meeting. But it seems that it is not proper for him to make the news public," a senior naval colonel said, requesting anonymity. One retired PLA general said: "There is only one reason for such an important piece of news to come out in this way: the central authorities want to keep it low profile." Macau-based military expert Wang Dong yesterday said it made sense that Dalian shipyard was responsible for the construction of the new carrier. "However, it is worth keeping an eye if Dalian also gets the orders to build type 052D destroyers as they are usually built by Shanghai shipyard. If Dalian is building both, it may exceed their capacity,' he said.
A spokesman of Defence Ministry yesterday declined to comment when reached by the Sunday Morning Post.
Heathrow Harry
19th Jan 2014, 15:43
optimistic t o put it mildly
the delivery date of the second carrier of 2018 is "based on that of the Liaoning"
but she was already built - just refurbished
The "USN Gerald Ford" will be 10 years in building for example............. and they know what they're doing.......
Then again, we've been talking about high speed rail for over a decade - they've built an entire network in 6......
Not_a_boffin
19th Jan 2014, 18:15
It is usually far more difficult to undertake complex work on a ship already built, than it is to build from scratch. Liaonang pretty much required gutting and then re-outfitting which is incredibly labour intensive.
As for Ford, don't confuse budget constrained timelines with ones where if you want something to happen, you throw resource at it until it does. I refer you to the build times for the likes of Forrestal and Enterprise.........
KiloB
20th Jan 2014, 11:58
Ah yes, Carriers, the Battleships of the 21st Century. If (heaven forbid) there is another Major Power punch-up the Carriers will, no doubt, go the same way the Battle-wagons went in WW2.
Modern weapons would seem to indicate that the day for any Capital Ship is surely over. They are just big high-value Targets fighting the Last War.
KB
No doubt why we're building 2 of them. Perhaps they should be renamed the Repulse and the Prince of Wales?
Heathrow Harry
21st Jan 2014, 12:10
Actually we've already agreed to sell them to the Chinese (probably....)
The Helpful Stacker
21st Jan 2014, 13:56
Now, now 'KiloB', everyone knows HMS White Elephant and HMS Boondoggle are essential for the future RN and will provide a first rate deterrent to any uppity pygmy women with sharpened mangoes who may wish to cross cutlasses with jolly Jack Tar.
As an aside think of all the space they'll have if they ever start holding cocktail parties again.
Lonewolf_50
5th Feb 2014, 12:43
Chinese aircraft carriers are the least the worries for local nations.
China to become world's largest missile producer: report?Politics?News?WantChinaTimes.com (http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=&id=20140119000082)
Quantity has a quality all its own. If you saturate an area with conventional ballistic missiles, at some point all of the THAAD/Aegis/Patriot/Arrow batteries either run out of rounds or can't handle the flow of the missiles raining down.
"May you live in interesting times."
It appears that we do, particular those who live along the Pacific Rim.
Carrier is a long term project.
China's J-15 Flying Sharks Train Onboard Carrier Liaoning (http://www.nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/exposed-chinas-j-15-flying-sharks-train-onboard-carrier-14764)
China building 2nd aircraft carrier; hints at third one (http://www.ibnlive.com/news/world/china-building-2nd-aircraft-carrier-hints-at-third-one-1184165.html)
yqOKX6QIDVw
ShotOne
2nd Jan 2016, 09:11
Perhaps they'd build a couple for us. I bet they'd cost less than £2 billion a shot, with or without cat.
Lonewolf_50
3rd Jan 2016, 21:08
China's J-15 Flying Sharks Train Onboard Carrier Liaoning (http://www.nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/exposed-chinas-j-15-flying-sharks-train-onboard-carrier-14764)
China building 2nd aircraft carrier; hints at third one (http://www.ibnlive.com/news/world/china-building-2nd-aircraft-carrier-hints-at-third-one-1184165.html)
yqOKX6QIDVw
Per the video, they seem to have adopted the shirt colors and handling signals used in NATO. I guess that you should copy the best when you copy. :ok:
Akrotiri bad boy
4th Jan 2016, 18:17
The carriers being built at Rosyth are straddled by an enormous crane that despite being emblazoned with Bae logos and white ensigns is on lease from China and will eventually be dismantled and returned A few years back I jokingly mentioned that the crane was probably blue-toothed to a 3D printer in Shanghai.
Maybe the truth's out there?:suspect:
Coming in ahead of even the optomistic schedule discussed previously And the future carriers look like being nuclear CATOBAR carriers. One wonders if they have copied Russian, French... Or USN designs. Interesting to consider if they will roll out with EMALS.
China's First Homemade Carrier Could Take to the Seas Later This Year (http://thediplomat.com/2016/08/chinas-first-homemade-carrier-could-take-to-the-seas-later-this-year/)
Lonewolf_50
1st Sep 2016, 14:21
Currently, only the French and U.S. navies feature CATOBAR-equipped carriers. And we only run nukes now.
If the Chinese choose to go nuke and choose to go CATOBAR, I'd be surprised if they don't go EMALS (I have no doubt they've done their due diligence/industrial espionage, they are serious about this stuff) as it leapfrogs into a better capability. Why not copy the better idea if it's the better idea? Good thinking, IMO, on their part ... as long as they can afford it. through the mid term at least, they can, and I'll bet the over on the long term.
Heathrow Harry
1st Sep 2016, 17:15
well they're emulating the west with their in-service estimates anyway (see thread title)
Must have hacked LM & BAe project planning software
Heathrow Harry
23rd Sep 2016, 17:16
China flight testing modified J-15 for CATOBAR operations | IHS Jane's 360 (http://www.janes.com/article/64001/china-flight-testing-modified-j-15-for-catobar-operations?)
Latest updates from IHS Jane's 360 Friday 23rd September 2016
(http://app.ihs.com/e/er?utm_campaign=%5bPMP%5d_PC5308_Jane%27s+360+23.09.2016_KV_ Deployment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&s=1770935282&lid=8&elqTrackId=2e14025590c341b5852cbecd51521e14&elq=7cba7fe5b4bf46498eb544259f04ff47&elqaid=37725&elqat=1) IHS Jane's 360 (http://app.ihs.com/e/er?utm_campaign=%5bPMP%5d_PC5308_Jane%27s+360+23.09.2016_KV_ Deployment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&s=1770935282&lid=224&elqTrackId=30fe8c8caed64aa3b21d3921e3613e80&elq=7cba7fe5b4bf46498eb544259f04ff47&elqaid=37725&elqat=1) HOME (http://app.ihs.com/e/er?utm_campaign=%5bPMP%5d_PC5308_Jane%27s+360+23.09.2016_KV_ Deployment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&s=1770935282&lid=224&elqTrackId=14473d65dc4244129b93cfbd11ba4896&elq=7cba7fe5b4bf46498eb544259f04ff47&elqaid=37725&elqat=1) DEFENCE (http://app.ihs.com/e/er?utm_campaign=%5bPMP%5d_PC5308_Jane%27s+360+23.09.2016_KV_ Deployment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&s=1770935282&lid=225&elqTrackId=814748a1d82c4065959c4e03150757cd&elq=7cba7fe5b4bf46498eb544259f04ff47&elqaid=37725&elqat=1) SECURITY (http://app.ihs.com/e/er?utm_campaign=%5bPMP%5d_PC5308_Jane%27s+360+23.09.2016_KV_ Deployment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&s=1770935282&lid=226&elqTrackId=f07dbf9e2ae1473a993d2e32b6b4d218&elq=7cba7fe5b4bf46498eb544259f04ff47&elqaid=37725&elqat=1) INDUSTRY (http://app.ihs.com/e/er?utm_campaign=%5bPMP%5d_PC5308_Jane%27s+360+23.09.2016_KV_ Deployment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&s=1770935282&lid=227&elqTrackId=0953a443b50042d7b24609e807420527&elq=7cba7fe5b4bf46498eb544259f04ff47&elqaid=37725&elqat=1) China flight testing modified J-15 for CATOBAR operations (http://app.ihs.com/e/er?utm_campaign=%5bPMP%5d_PC5308_Jane%27s+360+23.09.2016_KV_ Deployment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&s=1770935282&lid=33410&elqTrackId=8a25e3e5c5c24f2989937091a3140938&elq=7cba7fe5b4bf46498eb544259f04ff47&elqaid=37725&elqat=1)
http://images.ihs.com/EloquaImages/clients/IHS/%7B2a4f46a2-0e9a-4f9e-b957-f2e5e2f1470a%7D_1650884_-_main.jpg (http://app.ihs.com/e/er?utm_campaign=%5bPMP%5d_PC5308_Jane%27s+360+23.09.2016_KV_ Deployment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&s=1770935282&lid=33410&elqTrackId=3824b2da9c9f49ea9d4ef0ba6e1f1722&elq=7cba7fe5b4bf46498eb544259f04ff47&elqaid=37725&elqat=1)
(http://app.ihs.com/e/er?utm_campaign=%5bPMP%5d_PC5308_Jane%27s+360+23.09.2016_KV_ Deployment&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Eloqua&s=1770935282&lid=229&elqTrackId=bb4148a440164609a450232e13e342ba&elq=7cba7fe5b4bf46498eb544259f04ff47&elqaid=37725&elqat=1)
China has been flight testing a new variant of its J-15 navalised fighter modified for catapult-assisted take-off but arrested recovery (CATOBAR) operations, according to images posted on Chinese online forums
Photos of China?s aircraft carrier urge better protection of confidential information - People's Daily Online (http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/1228/c90000-9160425.html)
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/assets/201612/EN-448326-thumbx300.jpg
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/assets/201612/EN-448327-thumb450x.jpg
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/assets/201612/EN-448328-thumb450x.jpg
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/assets/201612/EN-448329-thumb450x.jpg
http://english.kyodonews.jp/photos/assets/201612/EN-448330-thumbx300.jpg
http://www.popsci.com/china-builds-new-islandfor-its-aircraft-carrie
"......With all major structures on the CV-17 complete, the remaining tasks before launch include wiring the ship, installing sensors, electronics and self defense weapons, and various key systems like aircraft elevators, ship propellers and rudders. Presently, the CV-17is targeted to hit the water in mid 2017 for fitting out, and then into service with the PLAN, thus expanding China's naval aviation capability and power projection. However, the CV-17 can expect to reach operational status faster that its predecessor benefits from the Liaoning's years of training Chinese carrier pilots. And with more capable carriers in the pipeline, like the catapult-equipped Type 002 and nuclear-powered Type 003, China's blue-water navy will only become more formidable.".....
http://www.popsci.com/sites/popsci.com/files/styles/large_1x_/public/images/2016/05/cv_001a.jpg?itok=WXa5C4sa&fc=38,38
Harley Quinn
29th Dec 2016, 08:22
Am I right in thinking that if the pointy end has a ski jump there will be no catapults there. There was a lot of speculation re EMALs being installed a couple of years back, have the Chinese decided it's too difficult or would they be content just to have catapults on the sticky out bit in the middle?
As per the report at the end; 01 is the first home built and stays with the technology they inherited; 02 is being built with EMAL catapults; 03 adds nuclear powered.
See post #21 for the sections of the hull for 02 with notches for the catapult.
SpazSinbad
4th Jan 2017, 01:19
I'll guess videos TERMINATED on page 2 of this thread were of LIAONING? Anyhoooooo...
LIAONING J-15 'Flying Shark' Flight Ops SCS January 2017
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3q0YYPPB1M
Hmmmm. This thread was begun in 2007 (now nearly a decade ago!) with the prediction of a home grown CVA by 2010. And seven years after the predicted date, still no operational home grown CVA. Clearly, building a CVA is a much more difficult undertaking than most folks appreciate. And then assuming that was done, equipping such a CVA with an air wing is also very difficult, and then actually operating the CVA and its embarked air wing effectively and safely is even more difficult. It'll be interesting to see how much money the Chinese will be willing to sink into this effort.
Frostchamber
4th Jan 2017, 22:06
KenV: "It'll be interesting to see how much money the Chinese will be willing to sink into this effort."
My fairly confident prediction would be - as much as it takes.
Heathrow Harry
5th Jan 2017, 14:49
"This thread was begun in 2007 (now nearly a decade ago!) with the prediction of a home grown CVA by 2010. And seven years after the predicted date, still no operational home grown CVA"
The F-35 thread is only 7 years old..........................
Arclite01
6th Jan 2017, 12:54
Heathrow Harry
It's coming though !! and quicker than our capability I think. But then that's what you can do when you are not bound by the niceties of democracy !!
Arc
Heathrow Harry
6th Jan 2017, 15:14
and don't have to provide a cradle to grave social security programme..........
Arclite01
6th Jan 2017, 16:31
or bend in the breeze to every latest politicians whim...........or this weeks latest budget cutting idea
Arc
Two years from start to launch?
China's second aircraft carrier to be launched soon - CCTV News - CCTV.com English (http://english.cctv.com/2017/03/31/ARTI0AOKFSGhiCScFZ0mU5Hj170331.shtml)
China's domestically-made aircraft carrier is currently being fitted out and will soon be launched, according to a spokesperson from China's Ministry of National Defense, who gave no further details. The spokesperson, Wu Qian, made the response at a regular news briefing on Thursday in Beijing.
Earlier reports suggested that the carrier might be launched on April 23, when China celebrates the founding day of the Chinese navy. The Chinese defense ministry announced plans to construct the new aircraft carrier, built by China itself, in late December 2015........
Second carrier launched.
SNAFU!: China launches its 2nd carrier.... (http://www.snafu-solomon.com/2017/04/china-launches-its-2nd-carrier.html)
Hangarshuffle
26th Apr 2017, 19:59
Love the patronizing comments on here about China and its shipbuilding.
We used to say the same about Japanese cars around about 1972 when the OK dealership started distributing them. Just before they utterly trounced us at making them and selling them. And they just got better and at it...
19th Century was Britain's and the 20th was the USAs. 21st is China's. So suck it up.
Love the patronizing comments on here about China and its shipbuilding.
We used to say the same about Japanese cars around about 1972 when the OK dealership started distributing them. Just before they utterly trounced us at making them and selling them. And they just got better and at it...
19th Century was Britain's and the 20th was the USAs. 21st is China's. So suck it up.
That's an interesting debate. On some accounting the age of empires is compressing and, in main part due due to the one child policy, Chnina compressed it into 2 decades - and is already into the Japanese syndrome of an aging population with no next generation to support them, let alone carry on expansion.
In that theory the rising nation is India, not China.
Lordflasheart
27th Apr 2017, 00:35
The enormous dry dock (1200 ft by 270ft) at Dalian, out of which they just floated the Type 001A Shandong CV17, did not exist ten years ago. In the last ten years, they built that dry dock from scratch, then used it to assemble at least two very large (1100 ft long) cargo ships, rework the Liaoning CV 16 and then assemble the Shandong. All since 2006.
The first Type 002 70,000 ton CV 18 (alleged steam catapults and arrester wires) is already in ‘recognisable shape’ in the 1150 by 300 ft Hudong-Zhonghua twin dry dock on the Huangpu river in downtown Shanghai.
There are three other bigger dry docks (up to 1800 ft by 380 ft) in operation at the Jiangnan shipyard on Changxing Island just across the Yangtse from Shanghai. I don’t think they existed twelve years ago. ............ You gotta hand it to them.
More pics here - China launches aircraft carrier, boosting military presence - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-39715228)
LFH
sitigeltfel
2nd May 2017, 18:50
PLA Photoshop fail...
Oops! Chinese defence ministry?s PLA poster a big Photoshop fail | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2090448/oops-chinese-defence-ministrys-pla-poster-big-photoshop)
Oh dear! :ugh:
Breakthrough to power most advanced jet launch system on China’s second home-grown aircraft carrier (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2117947/breakthrough-power-most-advanced-jet-launch-system)
A technological breakthrough in naval propulsion will enable China’s second home-grown aircraft carrier to use the world’s most advanced jet launch system without having to resort to nuclear power, overcoming a huge hurdle in the vessel’s development, military sources said. The development of the integrated propulsion system (IPS) would allow the vessel to be more efficient, allowing more power for an electromagnetic catapult, rather than a less technologically advanced steam-driven catapult launch system, the sources said.
China’s first two carriers, the Liaoning and its sister ship, the Type 001A, are conventionally powered vessels equipped with Soviet-designed ski-jump launch systems. But an electromagnetic aircraft launch system (EMALS) on the Type 002, China’s second home-grown aircraft carrier, would mean less wear and tear on the planes and allow more aircraft to be launched in a shorter time than the ski and steam-catapult systems. According to a source close to the People’s Liberation Army, China’s Central Military Commission was keen to use EMALS on the Type 002. “[But] the obstacle … was whether a conventionally powered carrier would be able to support EMALS, and now that problem has been solved,” the person, who is close to the PLA’s equipment department, told the South China Morning Post.
The solution was provided by a team led by China’s top naval engineer Rear Admiral Ma Weiming, which developed a medium-voltage, direct-current transmission network to replace an earlier system based on alternating current. As a result, the CMC, which is chaired by President Xi Jinping, has said the development of the Type 002, which had long been delayed, would get under way “soon”, the source said.
https://cdn3.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/images/methode/2017/11/01/8decdd62-bed9-11e7-b942-6d23cbdef96a_image_hires_194219.jpg
Wang Ping, an expert in military technology at the Institute of Electrical Engineering under the Chinese Academy of Sciences in Beijing, said the innovative design meant that high-energy consuming launch systems and weapons could now be used on a vessel driven by conventional power. It wasn’t just a simple switch from alternating to direct current, but a complete overhaul of the energy supply and distribution system – from steam boilers to the energy storage device,” he said. Wang added that in the future, the same technology could be used to launch not just aircraft, but also missiles and satellites, and maybe even power high-speed trains.
A naval expert close to the carrier project confirmed that the CMC was now planning to proceed with the new power option. “China doesn’t need to copy the United States and use nuclear reactors to support EMALS and other energy-hungry weapons on the ship, because it now has more advanced technologies to solve the problem,” the naval expert said.... “China now has mature technologies … [and] the PLA is narrowing the gap with the US,” the naval expert said. He added that the US used an integrated propulsion system on its first USS Zumwalt-class destroyer, which was launched in 2013, but that it was not as advanced as the second-generation technology developed by Ma and his team.
In March, Ma, who is based at the PLA Naval University of Engineering in the central China city of Wuhan, told state broadcaster CCTV that the “ultimate aim” of his work on the IPS technology was to “solve the problem of deploying high-energy weapons” from ships. He also said on the sidelines of the annual National People’s Congress in Beijing that China’s EMALS technology was more advanced and more reliable than the system used on the nuclear-powered USS Gerald Ford supercarrier.
The world’s largest and most expensive super warship – and the first to use both EMALS and advanced arresting gear – completed its maiden arrested landing and launch operation in late July, a week after its commission to the US Navy.
Heathrow Harry
2nd Nov 2017, 08:53
makes sense - I'm sure that a decent trawl through all the published data plus a little bit of industrial espionage suggests that EMALS and a DC current system is a lower risk and can be achieved faster than trying to develop a bigger sea-going N power plant
Leave that to the submariners for now
I personally don't understand why a nuclear power plant is required for EMALS. EMALS was tested for years ashore with no nuclear plant. And current large civilian cruise ships generate huge amounts of electrical power for hotel services and propulsion without resorting to a nuclear power plant.
The main advantage of the nuke plants in US carriers is that the tankage used to store ship's propulsion fuel can instead be used to store aircraft fuel. They also allow the carrier to steam at sustained high speed for long distances to quickly arrive at a distant trouble spot without resorting to refueling enroute and arriving there ready to generate a large number of aircraft sorties.
And as an aside, the biggest reason US carriers are nuke powered is law. Congress passed a law in the 1970s mandating carriers be nuke powered.
Heathrow Harry
2nd Nov 2017, 16:10
Wow!!
I'll bet THAT lobbyist was able to retire a rich rich man................
Lonewolf_50
2nd Nov 2017, 16:15
Ken, I think that the biggest reasons are two: First Admiral Rickover, and then the law. :)
4 CBGs by 2030. 3rd as stated with EMALS, 4th is supposed to be nuclear.
China has started building its third aircraft carrier, military sources say (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2126883/china-has-started-building-its-third-aircraft-carrier)
China started building its third aircraft carrier, with a hi-tech launch system, at a Shanghai shipyard last year, according to sources close to the People’s Liberation Army.
One of the sources said Shanghai Jiangnan Shipyard Group was given the go-ahead to begin work on the vessel after military leaders met in Beijing following the annual sessions of China’s legislature and top political advisory body in March. “But the shipyard is still working on the carrier’s hull, which is expected to take about two years,” the source said. “Building the new carrier will be more complicated and challenging than the other two ships.”......
The sources all said it was too early to say when the third vessel would be launched, but China plans to have four aircraft carrier battle groups in service by 2030, according to naval experts.
Shipbuilders and technicians from Shanghai and Dalian are working on the third vessel, which will have a displacement of about 80,000 tonnes – 10,000 tonnes more than the Liaoning, according to another source close to the PLA Navy. “China has set up a strong and professional aircraft carrier team since early 2000, when it decided to retrofit the Varyag [the unfinished vessel China bought from Ukraine] to launch as the Liaoning, and it hired many Ukrainian experts ... as technical advisers,” the second source said.
The sources also confirmed that the new vessel, the CV-18, will use a launch system that is more advanced than the Soviet-designed ski-jump systems used in its other two aircraft carriers. Its electromagnetic aircraft launch system will mean less wear and tear on the planes and it will allow more aircraft to be launched in a shorter time than other systems.
The latest aircraft carrier project has been in the pipeline for some time. Satellite images taken back in 2009 showed a huge frame had been installed at the Shanghai shipyard to accommodate large-scale projects. That year, its general manager Nan Daqing told Shanghai Dragon TV the company was “fully prepared” to build the country’s first home-grown aircraft carrier....
http://alert5.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/26112179_820258371511590_9089163026904308941_n1.jpg
Sources said the layout of the new aircraft carrier, including its flight deck and “island” command centre, would be different from the other two. “The new vessel will have a smaller tower island than the Liaoning and its sister ship because it needs to accommodate China’s carrier-based J-15 fighter jets, which are quite large,” the first source said. “It has been suggested that they look to Britain’s warship, the HMS Queen Elizabeth, which has two small tower islands on the deck. That would create more space for the runway and aircraft, but no final decision has been made yet.”
China’s navy has meanwhile begun training its own fighter pilots, rather than recruiting them from the air force, as it prepares to expand the fleet, the official PLA Daily reported.
Willard Whyte
5th Jan 2018, 22:03
Guess who's coming to dinner.
msbbarratt
6th Jan 2018, 05:53
The main advantage of the nuke plants in US carriers is that the tankage used to store ship's propulsion fuel can instead be used to store aircraft fuel. They also allow the carrier to steam at sustained high speed for long distances to quickly arrive at a distant trouble spot without resorting to refueling enroute and arriving there ready to generate a large number of aircraft sorties.
Well that's the idea. But in practice the carrier has to hang around for its escorting fleet (it's a bit vulnerable without it), and runs out of food and aviation fuel anyway.
There's a big trade off between the size of a nuke plant and the size of a gas turbine plant. A nuke plant is quite large, with quite a large steam section, large wet turbines. Gas turbines are quite small and compact and lightweight, leaves a lot of room for fuel which is anyway the same stuff as the aircraft are using, or can be. So no need for separate fuel bunkerage. RN helos run on marine diesel.
If the carrier has to regularly RAS for food and fuel, it may just as well take on more fuel to move the ship too. That was the RN's conclusion. I recall a lot of discussion as to whether the new carriers should be nuclear powered, but it just didn't seem to be worth it. About the only thing it brings is the ability to run away jolly quickly for a long time, leaving everyone else behind.
However if you're prepared to let the carrier operate more independently of an escorting fleet then the long legs of a nuke does help. The newer USN carriers are larger, and have a lot more storage, probably for more of this type of operation.
RN helos run on marine diesel.
Fairly sure they use AVCAT and the ships use marine diesel. Certainly had a separate tank for the AVCAT on any ship I've been on.
Hmm, I believe that was slightly tongue in cheek - the QE is driven by RR MT30 gas turbines - 80% common with the Trent 800 on the Boeing 777.....
... Perhaps the Chinese are working on the fact that large numbers of simple bits of kit are probably worth much more than a couple of gold-plated ones. And if the jets on board are good.....................
.............even if they are not ‘gold-plated’......
Indeed, China has always subscribed to the ‘throw away', 'one time use', and 'human wave/life(Chinese)' is cheap and expendable.
And why like ants they will probably end up ruling the world.
Just glad I won’t be around.
With regard to carrier aviation, it is pretty complex,and the USN has around a 100 years prior hard-won experience, paid for in blood, so the Chinese will have just a little catching up to do, which no doubt they will.
Interesting to see that they are copying US procedures, but then that is sensible.
Fareastdriver
6th Jan 2018, 12:58
An interesting thing about that picture is the container ship being built alongside. Look at the container slots, ten containers wide. Multiply by six, seven or eight containers high and you have a rough idea how many it will take.
Ships of that size and construction require to carry containers all the time. Full or empty they are part of the structural integrity.
George K Lee
7th Jan 2018, 12:33
I am waiting for the all-the-time autoland and the UAVs to show up. Either with the second or third ship.
Fairly sure they use AVCAT and the ships use marine diesel. Certainly had a separate tank for the AVCAT on any ship I've been on.Most western military ships are designed to use Naval Distilllate Fuel (NDF), also known as NATO F-76. All such vessels can also be fueled by JP-5, (NATO F-44, known in the UK as DEF STAN 91-86 AVCAT/FSII.) JP-5/F-44 has about a 5% lower energy density than F-76. So while diesel engines can use either fuel interchangeably, the diesel engine will produce about 5% less power when running on JP-5.
Most land-based military aircraft use JP-8 (NATO F-34, British Defense Standard 91-87).
FWIW, F-76 has a very tight specification that includes a high storage stability test. Commercial marine/diesel fuel must be carefully rotated to ensure it is used before it becomes unstable. F-76 is "guaranteed" stable to a minimum of 24 months.
Hmm, I believe that was slightly tongue in cheek - the QE is driven by RR MT30 gas turbines - 80% common with the Trent 800 on the Boeing 777.....Not just the MT30 marine gas turbines. QE is also powered by diesels (4 × Warsila 38 marine diesels). She normally cruises on just the diesels for economy, but can quickly fire up the marine gas turbines when additional power is required. (for example, generating "wind over the deck" on a still air day.)
China prepares aircraft carrier for sea trial (http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1095467.shtml)
China's first domestically built carrier, known as the Type 001A, is undergoing preparations for its first sea trial, while discussions about its name show that Chinese people hold high expectations of the carrier's ability to resolve the Taiwan question.
According to the latest online photos from the Dalian Shipbuilding Industry Company (DSIC) construction site in Liaoning Province, where the carrier was launched and outfitted, the scaffolds on the carrier have been completely removed, and a phased array radar has been installed. "All the equipment and devices on the carrier are in the joint debugging stage, and the main engine has been powered. In 2018, we will present a surprise to the Chinese people," DSIC Chairman Liu Zheng said, according to a report on cctv.com, the official website of China Central Television, on March 13........
"This all proves that the Type 001A is getting ready for its first sea trial, and the exact timing will depend on factors like the weather and sea conditions. April 23 is Navy Day, the founding day of the PLA Navy [April 23 1949], so this might also be taken into consideration," Li Jie, a Beijing-based naval expert, told the Global Times on Tuesday. "After the sea trial, which normally takes about 6-12 months, it will be ready for delivery to the PLA Navy, so it's very likely we will see the carrier enlisted by the end of 2018," said Song Zhongping, a military expert and TV commentator.
Full speed
The Type 001A was launched in Dalian on April 26 2017, three days after Navy Day, and the outfitting work only took about one year. The speed with which the Type 001A was built was the fastest in the history of aircraft carrier construction, as it only took two years from the laying of the foundation in the shipyard to its launch, and more importantly, everything from the ship's body to its devices is domestically built, Liu said. "The quality of our construction is also world-class. For example, the world-class standard for the flatness of the flight deck is not more than 4 percent, and we made it lower than 3 percent," Liu noted.
All in the name
During the Two Sessions, Yuan Maorong, an NPC deputy from Taizhou city, East China's Zhejiang Province, suggested naming the carrier "Wei Wen", after a military general from the Three Kingdoms period (AD 184/220-280) who was the first man in history to arrive at Taiwan, according to cctv.com on March 13. Yuan said naming the carrier Wei Wen would show the historical fact of Taiwan being an integral part of China, and push the development of Cross-Straits relations.
The discussion of how the ship should be named has also been spreading in social media. Many Chinese netizens suggested simply naming the carrier "Taiwan," while others suggested naming it "Shi Lang", an admiral who recaptured Taiwan for the Qing Dynasty. "This displays the high expectations among the Chinese people over solving the Taiwan question, because they want the country to use the first domestically built aircraft carrier as a symbol to announce its determination and ability to achieve this aim, and also send a tough warning signal to the secessionists in Taiwan," Li noted.
However, the carrier is not targeting Taiwan, according to a military expert from a Beijing-based military academy who requested anonymity. He explained that if Beijing decided to use military measures to solve the Taiwan question, the PLA is fully capable of doing so without an aircraft carrier, and Type 001A was made for a greater purpose.
"The PLA Navy has regulations for naming large vessels like aircraft carriers, which generally use the names of provinces and municipalities," Song said. "Liaoning is primarily a platform for training personnel and collecting data through testing, while Type 001A is China's first carrier made for combat missions, so its name could be more special. It's impossible to name it with a person's name, for only vessels used for scientific research can use a person's name in China," said the anonymous military expert.
CVA-2 starts sea trials.
http://alert5.com/2018/05/13/watch-the-first-sea-trial-of-chinas-second-aircraft-carrier/
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2153803/china-working-new-fighter-jet-aircraft-carriers-replace
China is working on a new fighter jet for aircraft carriers to replace its J-15s
China is developing a new fighter jet for aircraft carriers to replace its J-15s after a series of mechanical failures and crashes, as it tries to build up a blue-water navy that can operate globally, military experts and sources said.
China is developing a new fighter jet for aircraft carriers to replace its J-15s after a series of mechanical failures and crashes, as it tries to build up a blue-water navy that can operate globally, military experts and sources said...... China needs to develop the new fighter jet as it plans to create at least four aircraft carrier groups to fulfil its global navy ambitions and defend its growing overseas interests,
Beijing-based naval expert Li Jie said. “In order to improve the combat effectiveness of the Chinese aircraft carrier strike groups, it is necessary to develop a new carrier-based fighter,” Li said, adding that the FC-31 stealth fighter could be used as a model to replace the J-15. China’s FC-31 is a newer generation stealth fighter that made its first flight in 2012, and is smaller and lighter than the J-15. Lieutenant General Zhang Honghe, deputy head of the PLA Air Force, also told the South China Morning Post that a “new carrier-based fighter to replace the J-15” was being developed......
The need to develop a new fighter jet has become more pressing after a series of “unpardonable mechanical failures” that have killed one top PLA pilot and injured another. Two sources close to the military told the Post there had been at least four crashes involving the J-15, although only two of them have been reported by state media. “The J-15 is a problematic aircraft – its unstable flight control system was the key factor behind the two fatal accidents two years ago,” one of the sources said.
Pilot Zhang Chao, 29, died in a crash in April 2016 as he tried to save his J-15 fighter jet, whose flight control system was breaking down during a mock landing on an aircraft carrier, according to state media reports. Three weeks later, his colleague Cao Xianjian, believed to be in his 40s, was seriously injured as he tried to deal with the same problem on a J-15. It took him more than a year to recover. All J-15s were grounded for three months after the crashes, which undermined morale in the air force and navy.
The navy called for an investigation after Zhang’s death, the sources said. “But the aviation experts at first refused to acknowledge that the J-15 has design problems,” one of the sources said. “They only agreed there were problems after Cao encountered the same trouble.”
Many of China’s home-grown fighter jets have had problems with their engines, aircraft design and modifications. But a PLA Navy veteran said that instead of carrying out more test flights, pilots were pushed to fly the warplanes, even though they had faults. “Of course it’s impossible to prevent any accident from ever happening during training. But unlike their counterparts in Western countries, Chinese air force pilots are asked to work around these mechanical errors,” the navy veteran said. Although pilots are taught to eject from their fighter jets in the event of a mechanical failure, they are also told they have a duty to “save the valuable aircraft”.
“PLA Air Force pilots are trained that it’s their mission to save the aircraft, which is state property ... but this needs to change because human lives are priceless,” the veteran said. “Aircraft can be rebuilt after a crash, but pilots are irreplaceable.”
Earlier this year, state broadcaster CCTV aired a propaganda programme praising Zhang and Cao for trying to save their jets as they were going down. Last week, Zhang was given a posthumous award for being “best party member”, while Cao was elected as the People’s Liberation Army representative at the Communist Party congress in October.
Alert 5 » Pentagon says China?s first CATOBAR aircraft carrier will enter service in 2022 - Military Aviation News (http://alert5.com/2019/05/03/pentagon-says-chinas-first-catobar-aircraft-carrier-will-enter-service-in-2022/)
Pentagon says China’s first CATOBAR aircraft carrier will enter service in 2022
The latest Pentagon 2019 China Military Power Report says the first Chinese aircraft carrier with catapults will enter the fleet in 2022. The second carrier will join the fleet by end of this year. Construction for the third carrier started in 2018.
https://media.defense.gov/2019/May/02/2002127082/-1/-1/1/2019_CHINA_MILITARY_POWER_REPORT.pdf
Asturias56
4th May 2019, 17:20
well they are the most populous country in the world and will be one of the richest over the next few decades - not a surprise TBH
THE question is will the US be able or willing to keep building replacement "Fords" to keep the current forces in up to scratch.................... they don't come cheap.....
racedo
4th May 2019, 23:13
Chinese aircraft carriers are the least the worries for local nations.
China to become world's largest missile producer: report?Politics?News?WantChinaTimes.com (http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?cid=1101&MainCatID=&id=20140119000082)
Quantity has a quality all its own. If you saturate an area with conventional ballistic missiles, at some point all of the THAAD/Aegis/Patriot/Arrow batteries either run out of rounds or can't handle the flow of the missiles raining down.
"May you live in interesting times."
It appears that we do, particular those who live along the Pacific Rim.
Carrier is a long term project.
While original post is 5 plus years old it actually does hit the button right on the head in 2 ways.
Yup flood an area with missiles such that overcome any defence of missile.
Second stage is use of drone technology with disposable drones, thousands of them that have enough power to last for 6-12 hours plus. Thousands of tiny single drones with a tiny charge that are all around a carrier makes a complete suspension of air operations inevitable. But at least a carrier can steam away and hopefully get out of range. These would be like flying cluster bomb, that sanitise an area from major air operations.
Drill it back and think land based operations and imagine release of thousands of them around a base where refuelling aircraft are or anything else that is critical you need in the air. A drone does not need to be powerful but ingest one into an engine or crack a screen and base then is just a parking lot.
racedo
4th May 2019, 23:14
well they are the most populous country in the world and will be one of the richest over the next few decades - not a surprise TBH
THE question is will the US be able or willing to keep building replacement "Fords" to keep the current forces in up to scratch.................... they don't come cheap.....
I believe the US biggest threat over next 25 years is Internal not External.
West Coast
5th May 2019, 15:31
I believe the US biggest threat over next 25 years is Internal not External.
Chemtrails Racedo? Be careful, the secret black helicopter is approaching.
racedo
5th May 2019, 22:02
Chemtrails Racedo? Be careful, the secret black helicopter is approaching.
LOL you know exactly what I mean.
1911 Anti Trust broke up SOHIO, another case is needed on the Net giants.
https://chinapower.csis.org/china-carrier-type-002/
Tracking the Type 002 – China’s third aircraft carrier
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3024584/chinas-navy-set-pick-j-20-stealth-jets-its-next-generationChina’s navy ‘set to pick J-20 stealth jets for its next generation carriers’China’s military is likely to pick the country’s first active stealth fighter, the J-20, for its next generation aircraft carriers, according to military sources and a recent report on state media.
The J-20, made by the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC), appears to have a won a head-to-head contest with the FC-31 (https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3019209/chinas-stealth-aircraft-engineers-race-build-best-jet-nations), a fighter made by another company which is still undergoing testing.A military insider told the South China Morning Post that the Central Military Commission, the People’s Liberation Army’s top decision-making body, now favoured adapting the J-20 for its new carriers.
“The Chengdu Aerospace Corporation will announce some new products, which will include a new version of their J-20. You can guess what type it will be,” the military insider, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject, said.
The FC-31 was independently developed by CAC’s sister company Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC), which also produced the J-15 – the jets currently in use on the country’s only active aircraft carrier, the Liaoning.
Both aerospace firms are subsidiaries of the state-owned giant Aviation Industry Corporation of China, which specialises in designing and developing military aircraft, and were set up to ensure benign competition between manufacturers.
Asturias56
28th Aug 2019, 08:02
ORAC - what is the current best estimate for the CVA-002 to start working up?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_002_aircraft_carrier
The ship is expected to be launched (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_ship_launching) in 2020 and enter active service in 2023.[10] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_002_aircraft_carrier#cite_note-diplomat-10) It is estimated to have an aircraft capacity of about 40 fighter aircraft, several propeller powered transport and airborne early warning and control (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_early_warning_and_control) aircraft.[15] (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_002_aircraft_carrier#cite_note-15)
https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/china-kicks-off-construction-of-new-supercarrier/
Asturias56
28th Aug 2019, 12:30
Many thanks!
https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/1264952776465014785?s=21
https://www.defensenews.com/training-sim/2020/06/01/china-home-built-aircraft-carrier-tests-weapons-at-sea/
China home-built aircraft carrier tests weapons at sea
BEIJING — China’s Defense Ministry said the People’s Liberation Army Navy’s only entirely home-built aircraft carrier is performing sea trials to test weapons and equipment as well as enhance training of the crew. Ministry spokesperson Ren Guoqiang said Friday the exercises were being conducted as planned, apparently unaffected by the country’s coronavirus outbreak.
The Shandong’s commissioning (https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/04/24/china-set-to-launch-second-aircraft-carrier/) last year by Chinese President Xi Jinping underscored the country’s rise as a regional naval power at a time of tensions with the U.S. and others over trade, Taiwan and the South China Sea.
It is the second Chinese aircraft carrier to enter service after the Liaoning, which was originally purchased as a hull from Ukraine and entirely refurbished. Both are based on a Soviet design with a ”ski jump”-style flight deck for takeoffs rather than the flat decks used by much larger U.S. aircraft carriers. It is powered by a conventional, oil-fueled steam turbine power plant, compared to the nuclear fuel used by American carriers and submarines........
Mind you, not sure how they’d get airborne from a carrier with enough fuel to give any away.....
Shenyang J-15s practicing night buddy-buddy AAR...
https://youtu.be/o-CSv_rs5vM
etudiant
28th Jul 2020, 13:27
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3024584/chinas-navy-set-pick-j-20-stealth-jets-its-next-generationChina’s navy ‘set to pick J-20 stealth jets for its next generation carriers’China’s military is likely to pick the country’s first active stealth fighter, the J-20, for its next generation aircraft carriers, according to military sources and a recent report on state media.
The J-20, made by the Chengdu Aerospace Corporation (CAC), appears to have a won a head-to-head contest with the FC-31 (https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3019209/chinas-stealth-aircraft-engineers-race-build-best-jet-nations), a fighter made by another company which is still undergoing testing.A military insider told the South China Morning Post that the Central Military Commission, the People’s Liberation Army’s top decision-making body, now favoured adapting the J-20 for its new carriers.
“The Chengdu Aerospace Corporation will announce some new products, which will include a new version of their J-20. You can guess what type it will be,” the military insider, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject, said.
The FC-31 was independently developed by CAC’s sister company Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC), which also produced the J-15 – the jets currently in use on the country’s only active aircraft carrier, the Liaoning.
Both aerospace firms are subsidiaries of the state-owned giant Aviation Industry Corporation of China, which specialises in designing and developing military aircraft, and were set up to ensure benign competition between manufacturers.
The J-20 is a big aircraft, 20 meters long, that will be a snug fit for carrier operations.
Very Top Gun(ish), in more senses than one....
https://youtu.be/fE_dJJtE1e0
Asturias56
22nd Nov 2020, 10:01
Chariots of Fire at the start but clearly a co-ordinated effort to raise the profile of the Carrier Force with the Chinese public
FODPlod
22nd Nov 2020, 11:38
Very Top Gun(ish), in more senses than one....
https://youtu.be/fE_dJJtE1e0
Can any of these aircraft launch (or land) carrying a decent payload?
Chugalug2
22nd Nov 2020, 11:49
Is it true that they all have very poor eyesight and have to wear glasses? Asking for a friend.
Video Mixdown
22nd Nov 2020, 16:42
Can any of these aircraft launch (or land) carrying a decent payload?
Interesting question. I’m curious about the ski-jump.
I can see how in the low speed/high AUW take-off of a VSTOL type like Harrier/F-35B, the vertical thrust element is usefully augmented by the vertical motion generated by going up the ski jump, giving more time/height for the aircraft to accelerate to the speed needed to transition to wing-borne flight.
However with a conventional type the aircraft clearly needs to achieve flying speed by the time it reaches the end of the deck. If the engine thrust alone can achieve this, I’m not clear what advantage the ski-jump gives, beyond pointing the jet away from the sea. If anything I’d expect it to actually reduce acceleration just when it’s most needed.
It’d be interesting to hear Engines or Mogwi’s thoughts on this.
WE Branch Fanatic
22nd Nov 2020, 20:39
The current PLA Navy carriers use STOBAR - launching with a ski ramp to cause an upward trajectory and increased angle of attack. It uses a lot of the deck - and so does the arrested recovery.
When the Soviets decided to build big carriers in the eighties, they decided not to go for a successor to the Yak-38 Forger, as they did not have the technology to compete with the Rolls Royce Pegasus engine. They also decided that developing a Steam Catapult would take too long.
It offers none of the advantages of vertical landing, reduces payload compared to either V/STOL or catapult launch, and uses a lot of deck.
Kiltrash
22nd Nov 2020, 20:48
Am I missing something? I see ne evidence of a Steam or ELMS type catapult. So just a ski jump assisted take off.
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2021/06/09/stealth-fighter-mock-up-appears-on-chinas-aircraft-carrier-testing-facility/
Stealth fighter mock-up appears at China’s aircraft carrier testing facility
MELBOURNE, Australia — China is stepping up its aircraft carrier program on all fronts with the emergence of a stealth fighter mock-up at a naval test facility, suggesting that China intends to operate the type on its ships.
Meanwhile, the construction of China’s third aircraft carrier is making steady progress, while a state media news clip shows carrier-borne fighters have been based at a naval air base, which has been geolocated to a naval air base in Hainan Island bordering the South China Sea.
The latter will be one of the final pieces to the jigsaw for China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy, or PLAN, to base its second aircraft carrier, the Shandong, and its associated air wing at Hainan, the main base of its South Sea Fleet……
Asturias56
10th Jun 2021, 07:40
"geolocated" ???????????????????
Do they mean relocated?
No, they mean that metadata and other means - such as using satellite photos and videos to triangulate landmarks in photos - has been used to pinpoint the location of the airfield from the published photos.
while a state media news clip shows carrier-borne fighters have been based at a naval air base
https://www.bellingcat.com/tag/geolocation/
https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/how-tos/2014/07/09/a-beginners-guide-to-geolocation/
https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/how-tos/2015/07/25/searching-the-earth-essential-geolocation-tools-for-verification/
Mogwi
10th Jun 2021, 16:47
"However with a conventional type the aircraft clearly needs to achieve flying speed by the time it reaches the end of the deck. If the engine thrust alone can achieve this, I’m not clear what advantage the ski-jump gives, beyond pointing the jet away from the sea. If anything I’d expect it to actually reduce acceleration just when it’s most needed.
It’d be interesting to hear Engines or Mogwi’s thoughts on this."
There is a small advantage in launching conventional aircraft from a ramp because the first few seconds of flight are partially ballistic, giving the aircraft time to accelerate to above stalling speed. Vectored thrust gives a much greater advantage as the aircraft is "covered 1/3 in anti-gravity paint" as JF used to explain. This meant that the Jumping Bean could exit the ramp around 90 kts, with a stall speed of c160 kts. This obviously requires the ability to control the aircraft at extremely low IAS.
I believe that our American cousins have done trials with F 18s in the past but I haven't seen any data. There is also a limiting top speed for using a ramp because of nose leg compression - and extension!
Mog
Lordflasheart
10th Jun 2021, 18:54
...
It's all right for you 'eros, but at my level there's a lot to be said for 'inshallah' or "OK God, I have control" when working with this sort of optimistic technology. God bless Doug Taylor - RIP 2019, age 89. He was 831 Squadron AEO in 1961-62 and 'Flight Deck Engineer Officer' of the Vic, as the FAAOA story below relates.
Lt Cdr Douglas Taylor - The Ski JumpLt Cdr Doug Taylor RN, the inventor of the ski jump, was a former deck officer aboard HMS Victorious in the sixties who was seeking an alternative to the Steam Catapult after witnessing the failure of the cats due to excessive heat in the far east. The runners either side of the cat slots had expanded due to the heat and the alert fighters could not be launched, so Taylor ordered the fire hoses to be turned on the deck to cool it down. Realising an alternative system with no moving parts would be desirable, he worked on his thesis at Southampton University and came up with a paper he called 'The Runway in The Sky', published in 1973.
HMS Invincible, lead ship of the class was laid down in 73, and launched in 77, without a ski jump (added during the fitting out stage). The ski jump was an upward-curving ramp at the end of the Short Take-Off run which imparted a positive vertical velocity to the aircraft. As well as offering more payload, the ski jump enhances safety because the aircraft is going upwards as it leaves the end of the ramp, giving more time to eject in the event of a problem. Initially, 7° ramps were fitted to Invincible and Illustrious, and Hermes and Ark Royal got 12° ramps. Later Invincible and Illustrious were refitted with 12° ramps.
On 30 October 1980, the test pilot, Lt Cdr David Poole from Boscombe Down, flying XZ439 made the first Sea Harrier launch from a ski jump at sea, from HMS Invincible.
LFH
...
Video Mixdown
10th Jun 2021, 18:57
There is a small advantage in launching conventional aircraft from a ramp because the first few seconds of flight are partially ballistic, giving the aircraft time to accelerate to above stalling speed. Mog
Thanks for that. Sounds to me as if a full fuel and weapons load could easily make it all pretty marginal.
On the subject of Harrier take-off performance, at Gioia del Colle in Aug 1995 (v.hot) we were filming Jaguars and Harriers on OP DELIBERATE FORCE for HQSTC. To catch the Jaguars getting airborne we had to position a long way down the runway. The Harriers were at about 500’ by the time they went past!
China ma6 be rethinking building CVA004 as a nuclear carrier, plus an update on CVA003.
https://min.news/en/military/e738f732ec38e84a6238136047e57bab.html
The 003 aircraft carrier will be launched. When will the 004 nuclear-powered aircraft carrier start?The conclusion may be unexpected
https://inf.news/en/military/43ca68ff3b8c03850d74001c568c27a6.html
https://inf.news/en/military/5ef07d4ee1b2e32489f46df61cfa39c4.html
Reports that the construction equipment being cleared from the dry dock on carrier 003 with launch being imminent.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia-pacific/2022/06/06/see-satellite-images-of-chinas-new-aircraft-carrier/
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1542x1182/image_22840e40e13d4e1b56ea390478dcd3cd9fbb36fc.jpeg
Asturias56
11th Jun 2022, 07:53
I'd suspect she'll be launched around 1st October - National Day
Nope, already launched. Time & tide wait for no man….
https://twitter.com/navylookout/status/1537714203913502723?s=21&t=343hZbrPGhyKM6AHXg0lJA
China’s first conventional aircraft carrier "Fujian” is out of dock and afloat. (Second in size only to US Ford/Nimitz class).
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1447x794/image_bb421f745d5d42eb3ba13b39fe7fcc215b97eab6.jpeg
SpazSinbad
18th Jun 2022, 04:38
China Launches Third Aircraft Carrier - YouTube
Asturias56
18th Jun 2022, 07:32
"I'd suspect she'll be launched around 1st October - National Day"
Well that was wrong!! Thanks Spaz - they clearly can't wait for her!!
I like the look of that island as well
https://twitter.com/realairpower1/status/1561131074163458048?s=21&t=O0UbPuOqoSgUfwc-h908HQ
. On edge! A PLAN Shenyang J-15 aboard the aircraft carrier Liaoning. Notice that even the horizontal stabilisers are foldable? Yup, the J-15 is that big!
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1500x844/image_ae43f31ba259fa7c946be7906b82e715e43f840f.jpeg
MPN11
21st Aug 2022, 14:10
Military Origami ... I like it!
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/image_e31d53ca5a7e8f712fea71c9973c2b0bf9a8bdd5.jpeg
SpazSinbad
3rd Jan 2024, 19:47
Chinese Naval Modernization In 2023 Reviewed 03 Jan 2024
"...For carrier- and amphibious capability one of two headliners for Chinese naval modernization in 2023 was, as expected, again the third aircraft carrier Fujian. The first of her class, featuring electromagnetic catapults for conventional take off and arrested landing (CATOBAR) of fixed wing combat aircraft, continued her fitting-out at Jiangnan in Shanghai. Most importantly in November Fujian had begun with the first dead load-catapult test launches. The step underscores steady progress towards an expected first sea trial in 2024. Over the last few days of December tugboats towed the carrier back into drydock. The rationale for this move remains unknown. However it seems plausible that the hull will receive a thorough clean and inspection preparing Fujian for her sea trials next year [2024]...."
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2024/01/chinese-naval-modernization-in-2023-reviewed/
Same PHOTO as above: "Chinese carrier Fujian being towed back into drydock December 2023. Source: Chinese social media." https://www.navalnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/836025bagy1hlfidjbwacj21rp0zu7jq.jpg
Davef68
5th Jan 2024, 14:03
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1920x1080/image_e31d53ca5a7e8f712fea71c9973c2b0bf9a8bdd5.jpeg
J-15 (mock-up?) on the back
I would imagine they have various airframes for checks on lifts, electrical connectors, EM interference checks etc.
Plus they’ll need to check datalinks for navigation systems, mission system updates etc.
Not_a_boffin
5th Jan 2024, 14:35
That ship isn't at deep displacement yet by a long chalk. She's going to have problems with slamming on the sponsons - freeboard looks way too low.
Asturias56
5th Jan 2024, 14:44
NAB - that's a very interesting observation and possibly something they haven't thought through. Any suggestions as to what restrictions that might put on her deployment when fully equipped?
melmothtw
5th Jan 2024, 14:48
NAB - that's a very interesting observation and possibly something they haven't thought through.
Serves them right for not checking with PPRuNE first.
Asturias56
5th Jan 2024, 14:51
Appalling isn't it? They probably checked with the Daily Mail tho'...............
On her way to dry dock for hull inspection before sea trials later in the year.
How much difference t9 displacement will a full fuel, weapons, supplies, aircraft, manpower etc make?
(IIRC the T41s had to maintain a minimum of a 50% fuel load later in life, once they received a heavier radar antenna which made them top heavy?)
Not_a_boffin
5th Jan 2024, 16:03
On her way to dry dock for hull inspection before sea trials later in the year.<br /><br />How much difference t9 displacement will a full fuel, weapons, supplies, aircraft, manpower etc make?<br /><br />(IIRC the T41s had to maintain a minimum of a 50% fuel load later in life, once they received a heavier radar antenna which made them top heavy?)
Depends on the endurance figures (for both ship and air wing) primarily. But I'd expect to see something north of 10-12000 tonnes of additional weight at least. Based on length of 300m by beam of 39m that's likely to have her sitting around 1.5 m deeper in the water. Now - the immediate photos above are a little misleading compared to the distance shot in Oracs post #106 from June. However, those sponsons in way of the lifts and the one 20% aft of the bow do look as if they'll be a slamming risk in higher sea states.
Of note, the QLZ and POW don’t have fan tails or an engine test area either, but are still considered long-range blue water carriers….
https://qr.ae/psRYtV
https://x.com/rupprechtdeino/status/1759315021232796135?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
As it seems, this is one of the clearest recent images of the PLANS-18 „Fujian“ after being in the water again since 14th February.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1214x908/image_1f8ed88c962e0f4840b6e826718484bc1a48e0fc.png
https://x.com/alexluck9/status/1759418885428879541?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
The most obvious question for this angle is yet again what sort of facilities, if any Fujian has to test aircraft engines onboard. There may not be any, pointing to the possibility that the carrier is primarily intended for operations not too far abroad. Pure guessing of course.
To illustrate what I am referring to, here you see the related fitting (door and sponson) on Nimitz CVN. The area in question is the sponson carrying the writing "Harry S Truman" and the opening above it on the first image.
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1333/image_d27af0a2590db8282e240f9dbc55a9deac3775be.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/943x683/image_4a610bd813a52ff5ab6648c1f1b073ae80c0acb3.png
Not_a_boffin
19th Feb 2024, 14:31
Of note, the QLZ and POW don’t have fan tails or an engine test area either, but are still considered long-range blue water carriers….
https://qr.ae/psRYtV
As it seems, this is one of the clearest recent images of the PLANS-18 „Fujian“ after being in the water again since 14th February.
The most obvious question for this angle is yet again what sort of facilities, if any Fujian has to test aircraft engines onboard. There may not be any, pointing to the possibility that the carrier is primarily intended for operations not too far abroad. Pure guessing of course.
To illustrate what I am referring to, here you see the related fitting (door and sponson) on Nimitz CVN. The area in question is the sponson carrying the writing "Harry S Truman" and the opening above it on the first image.
I wouldn't get too worried about that. It's entirely possible they've got such a facility - all you need is a seating / test bed with fuel and control system and a duct to ensure you get clean non-fodded air.
Its also possible that they're assuming their engines will be so reliable they'll get minimal use out of such a facility...(ho ho ho) or that they'll be delivered by the engine OEM via magical COD (ho ho ho again).
To be fair, it may be that the engine test facility is a legacy holdover from previous engines - I'd suspect frequency of use depends on frequency of engine change and whether you need to do a bench test prior to strapping it into the cab and testing that, noting that full-power runs might be challenging in tie down terms!
Davef68
20th Feb 2024, 12:13
He does make the assumbition that the area on the stern immediately below the flight deck isn't just shielding to hide that area whilst in the dockyard
e.g. CdeG in dock
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/CdG-photo116.jpg
CdeG at Sea
https://navyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2023/june/Will_French_aircraft_carrier_Charles_de_Gaulle_be_extended_b eyond_2038.jpg
https://www.twz.com/sea/deck-of-chinas-nearly-complete-carrier-now-hosting-multiple-aircraft-mockups
Deck Of China’s Nearly Complete Carrier Now Hosting Multiple Aircraft Mockups
The sight of mock fighters, a trainer, and an early warning and control aircraft on the Fujian gives a glimpse of its future air wing.
Video report. https://x.com/indopac_info/status/1785666842620829874?s=61&t=rmEeUn68HhlFHGKbTPQr_A
China's New Carrier Starts Sea Trials
China's third and most advanced aircraft carrier, named Fujian, has begun sea trials.
Via TaiwanPlus News.
SpazSinbad
2nd May 2024, 01:38
FUJIAN begins sea trials 01 May 2024
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2meSAE_bNgQ
JPG: https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AA1nZleJ.img
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1561x1047/fujianroped_ffe01e9cd285d7b33782c0c1637285a0930833cb.jpg
SpazSinbad
4th May 2024, 20:23
Chinese Aircraft Carrier Fujian Leaves for First Set of Sea Trials - USNI News 01 May 2024 Dzirhan Mahadzir
https://news.usni.org/2024/05/01/chinese-aircraft-carrier-fujian-leaves-for-first-set-of-sea-trials
“...In March, Yuan Huazhi, political commissar of the PLAN, told Chinese media that China would announce a fourth carrier soon and would also reveal if it would be a nuclear powered or a conventionally powered like its existing three carriers. So far no official announcement has been made....
...PLA Daily also reported that in the summer, the female trainee pilots will carry out advanced flight training which will include instrument flying, navigation, formation flying and night flying. In its 2023 recruitment announcement, PLAN stated that after two months of basic training, cadet pilots would undergo 3-4 years of flight training at the PLA Naval Aviation University before graduating for assignment, thus, at the earliest, China will have its first batch of female naval aviators in late 2026.”