CPL Training, is going over the 25 hrs a problem?

[badboy raggamuffin]

Hi all,

Just wondering what is a decent amount of hours in which to get the CPL training competed?
Do most people do it in the minimum 25, or is it normal to go over by a few hrs?

Is anybody willing to divulge how many hours it took them to do it?

Cheers

[BigGrecian]

25 hours is the minimum requirement.
I know students who did double that. :ugh:
Where I instruct I imagine about 80% go over by the odd hour or two, and around 25% go a couple more.
Average probably around 28ish.
I would budget for at least a 15% overspend and hours factor on any aviation course.

[SD.]

Having done both FAA and JAA CPL, I can't understand why it takes 25 hours to reach the standards for the JAA CPL. No new maneuvers, just tighter standards than the PPL.

I could understand with the FAA CPL as there are chandelles, lazy eights, eights on pylons etc. 25 hours to learn the local area, tighten up the standards and learn how to fly a wobbly prop and retractable gear seems excessive to me.

[MIKECR]

Everybodys different, if you need extra hours then just accept it. Better to do a few extra's and get a first time pass than trying to go for minimums and failing. As a slight aside, I'd be more concerned about the IR than the CPL, for a number of reasons i.e cost, airline application forms etc.

[Deano777]

As has already been said don't get too hung up on how long it will take you, everyone's different, some may take 25hrs, some 40, it doesn't matter, the only thing it matters to is the pocket.
For the record I got a rebate on my CPL package, as we are only charged airborne time it must have been under the 25hrs but I booked 25hrs 1 min, again, everyone's different, just work hard, be focused and give 110% then you can't go wrong :ok:

[Turbine King]

Hi Deano

Where did you do your CPL?
I don't understand the rebate thing you mention

I've still to get through my ATPLs but thinking ahead

[Deano777]

The rebate

Basically the CPL package costs X amount, this is for airborne time + 10 minutes, so excluding brakes off to brakes on, if the taxi time comes to 11 minutes you start to build up credits if you see what I mean, so if my CPL course was 25hrs and 1 minute in my logbook my airborne time will be less but I've paid for 25hrs, so some of this time is "credited", I didn't get any money back in the hand, what it meant was when I came to pay the bill for the solo hire of the aircraft for the test it cost me £130 less than it would have done.
Make sense? about as lucid as a glass of mud :E

Check your PMs for my training provider

D.

[Hufty]

Nobody will care how many hours it takes you although if you go into an airline interview and boast that you took 200 hours to get your CPL they might begin to think you're a muppet! I went over hours by around 5 (I think) basically as I wanted more practice just to make sure I stood the best chance of getting through the test.

If you take more you don't need to tell anybody - the fact you have the licence is what matters.

Good luck!!

[Callsign Kilo]

In my book the CPL is a jumped up PPL. It's all about sharpening up those skills that were taught to you when you started flying. I have just finished mine, going 45 minutes over the 25 hour minimum training time. I got a first series pass, with an initial partial on a circuit of all things! However a colleague who I train with was closer to 40 hours before test and passed on the first attempt. It horses for courses I suppose, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Good luck

[High Wing Drifter]

It is a jumped up PPL, but expect no quarter, the skill test is a far cry from the PPL. Probably horses for courses but it was demanding - exacting, precision, perfection are required attributes to be confident of a first time pass. I had much more latitude during my IR skill test!

[pipergirl]

I don't think going over the hours is problem at all.

I don't think it is fair to say "I can't understand why people go over.."
well, different people hit snags with different aspects of the course. There was a chap at my school who had terrible problems with navigation and had to repeat a lesson a few times. He eventually ironed out the problem and passed the test. Some people struggle with the instrument part as well.

At the end of the day, the reason people go over the prescribed minimum is simply down to the fact that they are human and we can all make mistakes!

I hate people stating that the CPL is a glorified PPL, because it simply isn't and my experience, and the experience of the other students on my CPL course would back that up.
I had a decent standard of flying going into the course, but my flying was completely dismantled and put back together again, but in a different way- if you get what I mean.
The CPL course is hard work and does demand that you change your thinking towards flying-captaincy skills, workload, precision etc...
I heard it mentioned in the school that people do approach the CPL course thinking that they do not have to put any work or study into the course, because there is this idea that it is a "glorified PPL" or simply because they have done the ATPLs and this is a piece of p155.

It was hard hard work mentally and physically and you do need to approach the course with the right frame of mind and don't think of the course as a jumped up PPL. Attack the course with the same enthusiasm/hard work as any other course on the build up to your Frozen ATPL.

[Callsign Kilo]

Pipergirl...while a I don't disagree that you need to put in a lot of hard work and effort into the CPL course (or any commercial flying for that matter) I do still believe the CPL to be the PPL's 'bigger brother' should we say?

In the practical sense, there is very little in the CPL course that you have not already experienced in previous VFR flying at PPL standard. Fair enough, a lot of the training is conducted in a 'complex aircraft,' however for PA28 flyers out there the Arrow isn't a million miles away from what you have been used to (assuming your CPL training is in a SEP).

In my humble opinion the key to it is concentrating on doing things a lot more accurately and smoothly than you had done before. The examiner is looking for a thought out, tried and tested procedure to be put in place for everything. I found my training to be based around demonstrating these procedures and applying them to the skills that I already had, or thought I had. The end product is a professional approach to your thinking and flying - this is what is being assessed in my opinion.

Best of luck
CK

[powdermonkey]

Hi, I too was getting concerned about going over the minimum time, some of it was a financial concern, the other was pride, as I was thinking I wasn't as good as some of the other students. I am now 3 hrs over my 15hrs in the multi engine for my IR, and was begining to panic because I wasn't signed off on my last flight, ( which was a pile of horse sh....), as I was having some difficulty with ndb holds in 30kts winds, but it just dawned on me that roughly 1hr of each flight at least if not more, is to get started up, airborne, over to the ndb which is not at our airfield and back again, so a typical flight to practice ndb holds say 3 to 4 times around the hold, one or two approaches, will take 1hr45mins for 30mins of ndb practice..........so if you do that 3 times as I have done, the hours build up quite quickly!!! IT IS A MASSIVE FINANCIAL STRAIN, but I have to take it at my own pace, do what is required so that I, not anyone else, feel ready for my test as I only want to do it once. So don't worry about the time, there are other reasons, such as wx and ac going tech which will slow you down and currency in the ac is lost, which is always a small step back and may require a little extra time to get back to the standard you were at before the break in training. Lots of factors will affect training, some take longer, some do it in minimum time, some partial and some fail........don't stress or put pressure on yourself to compete with others, you will be ready when you are, if it takes 10hrs longer, so be it!

[High Wing Drifter]

PiperGirl,
I hate people stating that the CPL is a glorified PPL
Agree in sentiment. The CPL is a jumped up PPL in the sense that it more or less the PPL structure with some extras. But as with many things in life, the extra 20% of competence needed requires 80% more effort to achieve.

PowerderMonkey,
I am now 3 hrs over my 15hrs in the multi engine for my IR
I was a nice round 10 hours over by the time I completed. Judging by the success of others (not myself as yet - alas) I've drawn the conclusion that training hours (and 1st time passes) mean very little indeed, there are so many variables to contend with which I suspect don't present themselves in a TR, base or line training environment. As you suggest, with an IR flight lasting 2-3 hours sometime plus the ferry, there is no room in the 15hrs for mistakes, but as far as I'm concerned the CPL and IR are both demanding and mistakes happen.

[sam34]

Hello friends!

That 's an interesting question about the overs hours, I mean :

from France I am suprised that more students pilots in UK are just happy to get their CPL IR in minimum hours. I often read "Oh, I got my CPL with 25 hours! etc" ok that's cool... and when I saw the rate pass of the uk school, is often 80% or 65% I was surprised too!! it is really not good! not bad but not good neither!

I do not criticize just I am surprising. Because here we sign for CPL/IR for minimum hours, and it is normal to get our CPL or IR with minimum hours!

most of french school are a first rate pass of 99%!! ok a few students can go over the minimum hours but it is exceptional and in general maybe 20% of the price of the course. And however we have not more aricraft crashes than others europeen countries.

So I will be a little scared to do my CPL/IR in UK just because a FTO can't promise or do the best for the student to get his CPL/IR with the hours required. I mean it is very important that the student is sure that he will finish his course with the money he has. I thinlk he will be more self confident.

I will do my CPL/IR/MEP soon the course costs 30000 euros, so I will take 30000 at the bank not more not less. Just because I am sure at 99% to pass my CPL/IR with minimum hours with minimum money.

Don't think that the examiners give our CPL/IR... a few students can fail...

So I wonder if the course is exactly the same between differents europeens countries... :rolleyes:

[Callsign Kilo]

Call me a cynic, however there is something going on here, no? You mean schools in France boast first time pass rates of 99% with minimum hours?!?! You either have some damn incredible instructors or you all must fly around like Chuck Yeager! If this is the case why are we all not training in France!

[sam34]

That's an instructor who said me that! and I can tell you that I do not know at the moment any student, friends who did their CPL/IR with an extra hour of 10 hours!! here 5 hours is already a lot!!
I do not know if a few of you (english) did your course in france, but if there are, I a sure they got their CPL/IR with minimum hours.
Well i will tell you that later when I will have finished my course... But I really not stressed about the hours required... :}

But we ahve not superman instructor or we are not superman pilot, maybe most of us work very hard!

and like you, I would like to understand that difference! it is very funny to read your concern about these hours...

and like you said before, we are different. That's why I do not understand... because I saw many students not very good to pass their CPL/IR the first time!! so maybe the french examiners are more flexibles, ??

so I wonder how do you do in UK ?? if you have to do many extra hours I wonder where do you find your extra money ??

I talk to many Instructor of schools and they said me, "well the rate pass is High because we all know that the course is very expensive and fly is expensive! "

so I suppose if you don't have extra money (10 extras hour IR Ouchh!!) your FTO says you "bye bye " ??

[Hufty]

Well, Sam34 is clearly on a fast track to NASA - RHS of the old shuttle soon I'll warrant. Some people are just cut out for this flying lark - I take my hat off to him (her) as he (she) is clearly a natural. I look forward one day to you being my Captain - I am sure I will learn a lot from you and gasp in awe at your exceptional handling skills.

:yuk:

[sam34]

Hufty I habe never said that I was a very good pilot not at all!!

I wonder the same thing you wonder why this difference!!
please don't blame me. Like I said maybe the examiner in France are more flexible !!

Ok, well, please take your time to read this link from a french FTO.

Ok it is in french but please transate on goolge... but You can read 100%.

I know this school! and I can tell you that's true!!! I asked them, nobody could really explain me...

http://m.a.t.free.fr/MAT/historique.htm

[sam34]

well this is from the FTO website :

" Avec 24 ans d'expérience, la caractéristique essentielle de l'école est le maintien de l'esprit aéronautique qui a permis depuis ses débuts d'obtenir des résultats exceptionnels avoisinant les 100 % de réussite, dés la première présentation aux examens en vol. "

sorry I know it is an english forum, but this website is not translated in english..

So of course, others school have this pass rate because of the competition with this FTO... You think well if not, all french students go to this school!! But in the south of France this FTO is famous for this pass rate so lot of students go there. And if I want to begin the CPL/IR with them, I will have to wait 3 months maybe before to begin... because of a lot of people.

[Hufty]

C'etait seulement un blague mon ami - just be prepared for the unexpected - anything can happen to make you go over hours - weather, tech problems etc.....

I hope you manage to get it all done in minimum hours, but BEWARE what flying schools tell you - it is all about you and your skills and there is soooooo much that can influence it. I have seen VERY good people get partials due to bad luck and average people get through first time....

Bon chance though I hope it goes well for you....:ok:

[sam34]

Ok Hufty! thank you very much! well I do not understand english humour yet :}

As I said, I promise to tell you more about that because I am going to begin in June I think... And I would be curious how they (and I :) ) do that... :rolleyes: