FRI Announcement

[Mr-Burns]

I'm sure theres gonna be a lot of traffic on this one but I'll start it off with the following:

Any body got any ideas what is meant by 'selected WSOs' ??

[Dancing Bear]

Starter for 10, RN Lynx Observers?:ok:

[22/7 Master]

Mrs Pye is a very happy girl, apparently this WRI (wife's retention incentive) buys a fair amount of shoes and handbags.

It's a pity MOD is not quite as savvy as the city, where bonuses are paid to the wives to take advantage of their tax allowances (where they exist).

I for one would still sign the commitment if the trouble and wife was given the money.

[The Rogue]

Am OOA and have seen nothing of the FRI plan yet. Can somebody please post it on here, that is if it has been released? Ta

[Dancing Bear]

Cut and Paste I'm afraid, the bit you want is at page 53, para 4.9 onwards


http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/FFC91A50-1018-43AE-8B7D-9AEA41A0DA8B/0/afprb_rpt_2007.pdf

Hope it helps

DB

[Black 'n Yellar]

What constitutes a 'Senior Officer Pilot?' Why do they always say 50K when the smiling assasin always takes back 40% of it in tax? Either make it tax free or advertise what we will actually get in our piggy banks!:ugh:

[Rafsux]

So they pay the Sqn Ldrs who may already be more in favour of doing the time anyway (given that they did whatever they did to get promoted in the first place), but ignore the Flt Lt multi pilots who are presumably amongst the pissed off crowd, and still have the multi training to make themselves useful elsewhere - Virgin, BA, NetJets the list goes on................

[Megaton]

Multi-training won't help in BA any more. All recruitment on 737, Airbus and a few onto 757. ME and FJ guys all in the same boat at the moment.

[The Rogue]

Thanks DB. WSO figures will not make one jot of difference to my option next year.:*

[Ginseng]

Ah, well, you see, the argument probably goes something like this:

Flt Lt/Lt Pilots approaching their IPP have the carrot of assimilation to PAS, with its (very) long-term financial incentive in pay and pension terms, particularly if also a member of AFPS 05, to look forward to. Meanwhile, Career Stream Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr Pilots have been wondering why they bothered to try and get promoted in the first place and have been leaving, threatening the future manning balance and experience levels in the Career/Staff stream. The FRI is an attempt to provide them with a juicy carrot too. Interesting also to note in the AFPRB report the snippet about work on a future development of pension terms for Career Stream vs PAS. Nevertheless, one has to wonder if the multiplying number of different FRIs aimed at particular pinch points will achieve the desired affect. They are relatively cheap for the employer, when compared with giving the money through rises in regular salary, since they don't carry through into longer-term pension liabilities. However, I even the apparently eye-watering 2x£50,000 (gross) for Career Stream Senior Officer pilots seems to me to be struggling to keep up with the commercial competition, given the offset of a minimum 5-year delay in enterring the civil airline market, with the knoock on affects that such a delay would bring. I have always thought that if MoD wanted to offer a serious commercial incentive for those guys to stay long-term, it needs to be thinking more in the order of £250 000 (net) for starters.

How's that for an argument for a (green with envy) non-pilot?

Regards

Ginseng

[Strato Q]

Any body got any ideas what is meant by 'selected WSOs' ??

Anyone?:confused:

[ChristopherRobin]

and the Army pilots get....anything?

[ChristopherRobin]

ah - just found it -

3.43
As part of the measures to address manning shortages during 2005-06, the Army awarded 358 Golden Hellos, 26 Re-Joining Bounties and 200 Transfer Bonuses for those moving into Operational Pinch Points. As an indication of the effectiveness of short term measures, the manning position for Army Aircrew had improved with a surplus of Lynx and Gazelle Aircrew leading to withdrawal of the FRI in April 2006, a year earlier than planned.

so that's ok then.

I bet all the Army Aircrew in Helmand and Iraq are pretty impressed with that one.

[Jeep]

CR,

The G1 boys that go to the meetings have done a stunning job of not getting anything for the Army pilots. No shortage of pilots so no need for FRI. Last years surplus of 40 Lx pilots has turned into a shortfall of 30 for some reason.

At first I was a bit miffed that once again they have stitched us up, but then I had to giggle that the carreer stream officers (Army) are the real losers here; the career stream officers negotiate it all of course (see the irony?). Why not give it to Army Majors as well? In the Helicoper world now it is all JHC and joint. G1 is single service - lucky Army. Its rather like that joke about the Swiss doing the trains and UK doing the food etc; the Army doing your G1, you ought to wish that never gets the vote.

This one really stinks of Officer flying pay/NCO flying pay which we in the Army got rid of some time back but is now sneaking back in. Around the JHC, look to who is doing the flying.

Recently we hear rumours of:

a. G1 going to MOD to see if they can stop LE officers climbing the pay spine above a certain level so they won't turn down their Lt Col - it comes around every 3 years or so for one slot. Can't have the chaps turning their noses up at that. Army NCO pilots are already capped at level 23.

b. On the pension changeover there was a definate lack of certain ranks ranges being offered Pay Spine (a pause) so they could take advantage of it.

c. No need for an AH bonus yet, they are time barred until early next year and of course we can always call them up as reserves just to squeeze another 6 months out of them.

I am not a fan of the AH bonus, if your pilots are in short supply, bonus pilots, not just individual types. Improve conditions and man management. Targetting some career O4 types just so they can stay in is the same, derisive. Pay some and not the others and it just causes the retention problem to shift emphasis.

I never moaned about not getting mess incidentals while serving at Aldergrove, until under JHFNI we all combined and RAF got it, and Army didn't - single service interpretation of the rules. It was only like 120p a day. I didn't need it, but I certainly was miffed when we all didn't get it.

So once again, well done the Navy and RAF for extending their bonus system, and very well done for the the Army funding it by not convincing the board that they also require it.

The Admin service arranged it, the navy saw a good thing and said yes please, and the Army missed the point.

[AHQHI656SQN]

The AAC have so many pilots, they have to plot op tours at less than 4 months in duration so aircrew don't get R&R. This is because they don't have enough crews to cover during R&R periods. Fully loaded! Or A.F.Bee

[Sloppy Link]

Sheer genius! The AAC has three distinct aviating communities (NCO/DE/LE) and by what can only be descibed as selfish "why should they when we can't/didn't" have succeeded in pi$$ing us all off. This will successfully push those thinking of going to....go. With no incentive to stay (non PES, non Reg, AFPS75, no FRI), why should I? I'm off.

[ChristopherRobin]

Now now chaps, no need to vent your spleen here! Anyone who's at the (unsurprisingly final) Anzio dinner night tomorrow can take their pick of the senior people to poke in the chest.

I will be there - care to join me?

ttfn!

[timex]

See you there............

[Sloppy Link]

Ich auch.........

[CPG]

Sadly tom i have to agree with every one in 656Sqn looking for away out need we say anymore. With two tours under our belts, here by the grace of god and all that. Never mind only because of the character of the guys in the squardon it means the AH programme is where we are now. But will we ever learn. Enjoy your POTL mate.

[AHQHI656SQN]

As DAAvn put it!:D

[mutleyfour]

Once again a complete cock up goes by the way side, heaven forbid we own up to the fact that MCM have got the sums wrong. I implore puzzle palace to show where the excess of Gazelle and Lynx pilots are? All I see is undermanned Squadrons wherever I go and am frankly hugely dissappointed at the lack of gusto to fight our case. A senior Officer told me last year that NCO's were very lucky to have had it at all, which indirectly tells its own tale.

Well done all whom wear a Light Blue beret and think the garden remains Rosey, now get your head out of the compost and have a look around! I am convinced that the time barred AH outflow will demonstrate just how badly you have got it wrong. That alligned with the reduction in Lynx crews due to AH CTT and its effect on those few that remain, (Not the great wealth of them that seem to be sitting idly somewhere) causing them to rotate more and more increasingly on Telic will Im sure cause an equal defecit in Lynx manning.

I could have got this all wrong as I don't have the luxury of seeing the figures written on paper but I suspect that in a year or two's time the Corps will once again be offering FRI and telephoning retired pilots trying to entice them back, only to repeat this fiasco once more.

[Tourist]

Did you join for the money?
If so then poor choice.
And if not, how come it's such a big issue?
Stop being greedy!
There was no FRI in the origional contract.

[Front Seater]

Sorry,

Deleted this post - I now recognise that the words contained in it are/were totally useless and therefore stop whining and either shut up or get out.

So lets now see if I have the courage to either try and transfer or join the many in giving civvie flying a go - or maybe I will be allowed back to Lynx or Islander.

:sad:

[serf]

And there was me thinking that all AH drivers were on the PA spine, or is that just a select few?

[Front Seater]

And there I was thinking the following:
RN officer aircrew get the option for PA spine + 50K FRI
RAF officer aircrew pilots get the option for PA spine +50k FRI
RN 'Senior Officer' pilots get the option for FRI at IPP and FRI after 5 years
Silly me,
Of course - us Army aviators should just have the option for PA spine and if we ever become a 'Senior Officer' (i.e. Major or above) we get to try and sort out the $hit that is currently going on - possibly sat in the same JHC HQ opposite a a fellow RN 'senior officer' that has just got paid 50k (on top of his previous 5 years 50k) for doing exactly the same the job.
Of course Serf, I see exactly what you are saying - either soldier on stagging on in Afghanistan (or training for Afghanistan) and then doing nothing (of an aviation nature) when back at Wattisham because all of the spares/aircraft have run out or try and transfer to another Service and then you have got the options of PA spine and FRI and the real win is that if you really want to transfer and still want a career out of the cockpit, then if you are good enough against your peers, then you could get a double wammy.
Potentially 100k for AAC officer to transfer and try and 'make a career of the RN' to Senior officer level or remain in the Army still work the same MoD Main Building, PJHQ and high demand Staff jobs for an added increase of 0%.

[timex]

Did you join for the money?
If so then poor choice.
And if not, how come it's such a big issue?
Stop being greedy!
There was no FRI in the origional contract

Tourist, most of the guys joined for various reasons. Money wasn't really one.

What is happening now is people are leaving because they have done the time expected of them. Why would they extend their contracts if they are going to do twice the amount of work for no incentive? The flight I'm with has / had 8 pilots. 7 are finishing off the ATPL package. None are staying in. We fly Gaz. and the AAC has no more Gaz pilots around.....go figure.

[Tourist]

Don't get me wrong Timex, I think this is one of the most divisive bits of rubbish ever to come down the chain of command.
I took mine and spent it, but it made absolutely no difference to my staying in or leaving.
People did not join to make money, and money unless it really is a silly amount, will not make them stay.
The real problem is the erosion of fun in the military.
If they want retention, they need to kill off the fun police not throw small amounts of money at the problem. (£100,000 over 5 yrs = not much per year after tax)
All this does is annoy people by causing a split.

[serf]

Front Seater, you seem to have made the mistake that those above you give a $hit about you - they dont - so look out for yourself, you may think you are indespensible, you're not. (I used to think the same, saw the light and left)

[Front Seater]

Serf,

And on that we do agree - it is sad but true. I have always been educated in the forces to look after those under you, earn respect, lead - but I now get the feeling that I am reading a pre-WWII training manual in a Mr Chumley Warner accent and those professional ideals and associated ethos has long gone.

Is it really everyman for himself thses days? One thing that the military has always been over civvie street is selfless - (not selfish!) - selfless. Times are changing I fear.

:sad:

[Two's in]

DAAVn's point is that the Corps can not be held to ransom by those who threaten to leave unless things change. A sound principle, but the threat to leave is simply the effect, not the cause. It would be interesting to know if anyone on Falaise Road was actually looking at the reasons for some of these "whinges" and not just putting it down to SNCO/WO chips on shoulders, as is usually the case. That said, making any comparison between Army Aviation Terms of Service and the other 2 services is like a red rag to a bull to Non-Aviation Senior Army Officers who have never accepted (and never will) that piloting an Army aircraft is in any way a professional activity. As these are the individuals who drive the AFPRB, the chances of any alignement between the services is low, so it's not just DAAVn who doesn't accept there is a problem. And don't expect anyone in Light or Dark blue to help on this one, any public displays of the AAC eating their own young are met with with delight, while the RAF and RN start planning where to put all the Apaches.

And by the way, leaving the AAC at ANY level is like taking your hand out of a bucket of water - there's a few ripples at first, and then pretty soon it's like it was never there.

[countdeblades]

Jeep

'Can't have the chaps turning their noses up at that. Army NCO pilots are already capped at level 23.'

And I thought it was 22!! Bargain :ok:

[Front Seater]

So how was the Anzio Dinner - fun had by all I trust?

:ouch:

[owe ver chute]

I cannot imagine how this FRI has not been offered to AAC pilots given the current climate. Has history got nothing to teach us? :ugh:
At a time when op tempo is as high as it has ever been, the second batch of AH time-bars are about to run out at the same time that many of those (soon to be out of time bar AH pilots are being forced to move Wattashambles) lads are at thier 22 year point and AAvn think there isn't a shortage of pilots. :=
Look how many of the origional AH pilots (mostly QHI's I know) are still in green. There are more that are about to or have left than are still serving. Indeed another is on his way at the end of this month, and I look forward to buying him a pint. :ok:
Coupled with the time bar ending, post op tour reality will make many look closely at if they want to continue to serve, pressure from loved ones not to go back on ops will cause many to call it a day at the 22 years point.
I think that a big mistake has been made, and it won't be easy to correct.
OVC:confused:

[Sloppy Link]

Anzio Dinner
1. Mess Dress in dry cleaners for removal of multiple mud stains.
2. Mess wellies for a complete reburshiment.
3. Toilet on sleasy jet Cat 5'd on return trip.
4. Unfit to drive at 1800hrs the folloing day, had to get head down.

Fantastic!